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Newbie question. Where are the villains going to be?

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Brand X
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I always thought the

I always thought the alignment system of D&D was more guidelines than a strict adherence. No matter the alignment, in on going stories (like comics) it's not unheard of for any character to make exceptions to the rules.

I don't know if they were evil freedom though, they were just willing to do bad things for that freedom, and some of those on the side of freedom weren't always on the side of freedom because they were nice or valued freedom or even being decent people. They used it as an excuse to kill.

While the storyline was supposed to show how each side thinks of themselves as the good side, in the storyline it showed the Praetorian Leaders were outright doing illegal operations and wanted to oppress everyone. The Rebels were the good guys because they wanted a new non oppressive, non corrupt government, but their leaders realized it's not easily done without sacrificing some ideals...like working with psychos who are only on your side for the bloodshed.

It was very much a good versus evil thing, it just showed that it wasn't always that simple.

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And that's why it totally

A lot of people try to take the alignment system that way,
but in a world where good and evil et. al. (even neutrality) are actual mystic forces,
that can be detected by spells it's hard to let it be a vague suggestion.

As for how Pretoria worked out
it totally sucked,
It was completely out of step with what a superhero game should be.
I repeat alignment systems are poison

Frankly if it were up to me there wouldn't even be any player villains.

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You think this new alignment

You think this new alignment system is poison. I think the same old arbitrary segregation of the player base into 'hero' and 'villain' is poison.

Separate is NOT Equal.

"Frankly if it were up to me there wouldn't even be any player villains."

Have you read this thread? You get your wish. You get the game you want. You will never see or speak to a 'villain' player at all.

Me? I won't get to play a game with everyone I want to play with. I'm forced too literally choose sides.

The sad thing is that if the game was set up the way I would prefer (everyone starts out with a reputation of 3 Honor, 3 Peace, 3 Law and has their rep changed based on their actual in-game actions), you would still be able to play the way you want. You could make your own 'true blue hero' missions in the Mission Architect and play them and never have to see or speak to ANY of us.

I'm not angry with you TMP, really I'm not. You deserve to play the game you want to play in your own way.

I'm just sad that me and people who agree with me can't play with ALL our friends. And yes, I want to think all of this community is my friend, whether 'hero' or 'villain'. Until proven otherwise ;p

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Just as a small footnote:

Just as a small footnote:

I loved Praetoria the minute I logged in and saw it for the first time. To my way of thinking, Going Rogue was the best expansion the game ever delivered. Praetoria became my standard starting city and First Ward my primary leveling zone. To me, Going Rogue is the epitome of modern gaming.

So I love the 3-Axis alignment system. My only hesitation is that I don't want to see another player's alignment floating over their head like some kind of billboard. I want everyone on the same map and I don't want to know where they fall on the alignment axis. I want them to show me through their words and actions. I would prefer for the alignment system to only have an impact on PC-NPC relations, with the PC's alignment determining which NPC factions look favorable on the PC and which ones "attack on sight".

"Heroes" and "Villains" are, to my way of thinking, old-fashioned, archaic, and unnecessary labels. Let my character demonstrate through their choices what kind of morality they are aligned with. Let that alignment then determine which NPC faction sees the character as a friend and who sees the character as an enemy. Instead of phasing people off into separate instances, let's keep everyone together and see what happens. Just don't let it devolve into PvP thuggery and bullying. There is already too much of that going on in cyberspace. I see no need to incorporate it into the game mechanics.

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Grey, I agree with pretty

Grey, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I would change is that we should be able to see each other's alignment. I think of it as your reputation. If you do a lot of Honorable actions, you get a reputation for being Honorable, and other players should know that.

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Nina Guardian wrote:
Nina Guardian wrote:

Grey, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I would change is that we should be able to see each other's alignment. I think of it as your reputation. If you do a lot of Honorable actions, you get a reputation for being Honorable, and other players should know that.

Maybe only when they Join your SG, or even your team.

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Maybe you could get an

Maybe you could get an alignment report by looking them up on Cape Chasers?

It doesn't seem reasonable that you could 'just tell by looking' at a random PC.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Nina Guardian wrote:
Grey, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I would change is that we should be able to see each other's alignment. I think of it as your reputation. If you do a lot of Honorable actions, you get a reputation for being Honorable, and other players should know that.

Maybe only when they Join your SG, or even your team.

Or showing up on the Bio window, perhaps?

BTW, I'm still hoping that the switch mentioned above will allow for a neutral setting, under the player's direct control, so folks who want to see everybody can see everybody.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

My only hesitation is that I don't want to see another player's alignment floating over their head like some kind of billboard. I want everyone on the same map and I don't want to know where they fall on the alignment axis. I want them to show me through their words and actions.

I have no problem with relegating Alignment axis values to a tab on the Bio.

Greyhawk wrote:

I would prefer for the alignment system to only have an impact on PC-NPC relations, with the PC's alignment determining which NPC factions look favorable on the PC and which ones "attack on sight".

WORKING.

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Greyhawk wrote:

I loved Praetoria the minute I logged in and saw it for the first time. To my way of thinking, Going Rogue was the best expansion the game ever delivered. Praetoria became my standard starting city and First Ward my primary leveling zone. To me, Going Rogue is the epitome of modern gaming.


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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Just as a small footnote:
I loved Praetoria the minute I logged in and saw it for the first time. To my way of thinking, Going Rogue was the best expansion the game ever delivered. Praetoria became my standard starting city and First Ward my primary leveling zone. To me, Going Rogue is the epitome of modern gaming.
So I love the 3-Axis alignment system. My only hesitation is that I don't want to see another player's alignment floating over their head like some kind of billboard. I want everyone on the same map and I don't want to know where they fall on the alignment axis. I want them to show me through their words and actions. I would prefer for the alignment system to only have an impact on PC-NPC relations, with the PC's alignment determining which NPC factions look favorable on the PC and which ones "attack on sight".
"Heroes" and "Villains" are, to my way of thinking, old-fashioned, archaic, and unnecessary labels. Let my character demonstrate through their choices what kind of morality they are aligned with. Let that alignment then determine which NPC faction sees the character as a friend and who sees the character as an enemy. Instead of phasing people off into separate instances, let's keep everyone together and see what happens. Just don't let it devolve into PvP thuggery and bullying. There is already too much of that going on in cyberspace. I see no need to incorporate it into the game mechanics.

I agree with not wanting to see their alignment, disagree with the notion that heroes and villains are outdated notions.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Just as a small footnote:
I loved Praetoria the minute I logged in and saw it for the first time. To my way of thinking, Going Rogue was the best expansion the game ever delivered. Praetoria became my standard starting city and First Ward my primary leveling zone. To me, Going Rogue is the epitome of modern gaming.
So I love the 3-Axis alignment system. My only hesitation is that I don't want to see another player's alignment floating over their head like some kind of billboard. I want everyone on the same map and I don't want to know where they fall on the alignment axis. I want them to show me through their words and actions. I would prefer for the alignment system to only have an impact on PC-NPC relations, with the PC's alignment determining which NPC factions look favorable on the PC and which ones "attack on sight".
"Heroes" and "Villains" are, to my way of thinking, old-fashioned, archaic, and unnecessary labels. Let my character demonstrate through their choices what kind of morality they are aligned with. Let that alignment then determine which NPC faction sees the character as a friend and who sees the character as an enemy. Instead of phasing people off into separate instances, let's keep everyone together and see what happens. Just don't let it devolve into PvP thuggery and bullying. There is already too much of that going on in cyberspace. I see no need to incorporate it into the game mechanics.

Heh, I am chuckling too myself now as I just realized something. Now when I think about it one of the most common suggestions in other MMOs that I have seen such as Wildstar, WoW, SWTOR, and a few other MMOs with the modern trademark questing style was a three faction system.

This happened a lot in Wildstar especially because some people felt that the lore for the Dominion was incredibly weak in portraying them in a grey area. The problem was the Dominion were usually portrayed as the villains and the Exiles as the good guys which created a toxic faction rivalry between the players of both factions. The Dominion were very much the agressors in most of the faction conflicts in lore. The only exception possibly being the Granok War and the quarantine of Grismara (when the Mordesh were experiencing a planet wide zombie apocalypse while the Dominion watched pretty much).

This also happens to WoW and SWTOR to a certain degree as well . Some people just want to play in a more grey area of morality rather then being pigeonholed into the ''bad side'' and the ''good side''.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I realized that the "but a hero / villain might be offended if...!" argument has a major flaw. If I'm a low violence hero and see a high violence hero mowing down a gang with his assault rifle, how do I stop that? What if I see a PC doing something of questionable legality? Am I allowed to be offended only when the other player is playing a character in the other faction?

That's a really good set of questions. It seems a bit arbitrary to say we need a separation mechanic for some aspects of alignment difference while ignoring others.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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On SWTOR, the Empire is the

On SWTOR, the Empire is the bad guys! There's no going around that :p SW is a very good vs evil concept. It's what made SW so good to begin with.

WS I felt half assed it. It very much felt like Dominion are evil, when their side consists of psychopathic hamsters. Homicidal psychopaths equal evil, there's just no getting around it. Dominion went about conquering worlds to force them to their way. That's generally considered evil. This doesn't mean the Exiles were very bright, but then it felt a bit cartoony in it's story anyways, so I think it was kinda the point. It was a fun story for me anyways.

WoW I'm a bit more unsure of. I hear the story pretty much says Horde is evil, but then many a Horde player says they're not. Been to long since I played to really decide on it. I only picked a side on that game based on "Which race do I like the looks of most" :p

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On top of that the three

On top of that the three alignment system in other games are geared for factions or groups, not the person. This is a personal alignment you aren't playing a race or trooper that working for this or that side.

And that where this comes to a point. We are talking about a game where we want the choice to go bad or good and everything in between instead of slapped with a label at the beginning. Yes there will be EVIL vs Good, but should it be right out of the starting gate?

Boiling down all the talk it is that argument other games you are on a side, in a game where you are not the "Divine one" or chosen one, or a trooper. Your actions should guide things not alignment.

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. We want to rise from the ashes or fall into the pit without having a limitation affect them. A wall between Very Good and Very Evil is such a limit.

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Funny Greyhawk

Funny Greyhawk
You want alignment to affect your interactions with NPCs
even to the point where some (a lot actually) will attack on sight.
But you want players to be left clueless.
There are going to be thousands of players we can't be expected to keep up with them all.
Every normal cop on the beat can recognize any wanted criminal,
but the superheroes would forever be new in town.
Having your reputation visible helps us pretend
that there aren't as many costumed characters as there really are
and I'm definitely in favor of that.

I don't understand how the segregation is going to work
I've been told conflicting things and I can't keep track of it all.
I was told we would all be in the same zone, which wouldn't be a PVP zone
Now I'm told I'll never see a villain player
(which is good) how is it going to work?
will we spawn in different instances based on alignment?

Does this mean that if we turn evil slowly
the whole world will seem to grow more evil with us
as we spawn in darker and darker instances?
And as we turn back to the light
the world will also grow brighter around us
as we spawn in nicer and nicer instances?

That sounds cool but what if we do something drastic
that suddenly shifts our alignment all the way
or just stay logged in long enough to watch our alignment slowly change?
Will we be shifted imperceptibly from one instance to another?

I'm not asking because I have a problem with it,
I'm just curious. It sounds cool.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Funny Greyhawk
You want alignment to affect your interactions with NPCs
even to the point where some (a lot actually) will attack on sight.
But you want players to be left clueless.
There are going to be thousands of players we can't be expected to keep up with them all.
Every normal cop on the beat can recognize any wanted criminal,
but the superheroes would forever be new in town.
Having your reputation visible helps us pretend
that there aren't as many costumed characters as there really are
and I'm definitely in favor of that.

The truth is cops do know if your a (past)criminal or if your record is clean. So just like cops in the real world use background checks, scanners, and all the other devices that tell who you are and what you've done. It could be the case where they could have "scanners/background checkers" as a in game item that you can equip to then be able to see what other players alignment stats are.

You don't know anything about the person driving by you in the road, but a cop sure does.

Players would not be forever unknowing and clueless, if you saw the Joker for the first time, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go up to him and ask for directions. Not that bad people are so obvious but for those ambiguous characters it's up to them to, like Greyhawk said, to announce it with their words and actions

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Cops do have that! And yet

Cops do have that! And yet lots of criminals walk around in plain sight. :p My point being, that's a bad analogy, since there's not a chance that NPC wont misidentify you and totally ignore you once you get some levels over them.

Also, secret identity versus costumed one. If identity is known, sure all the time, but like in CoH, the NPCs didn't know when you were in your hero outfit or civvie one.

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The alignment system has two

The alignment system has two layers. The first will be the destinction between hero and villain. And this will not be one or the other, the devs have already stated that we have alignments in between those two, like the scoundrel and the vigilante.

This we will defining ourselves. We have full control over what our character is in our own viewpoint. Good, evil, neutral, it is up to us. And if we want to interact with the full spectrum, we just need to pick something that is in the middle of the spectrum. That was also said in this thread right here, only pure heros can not see and interact with pure villains and vice versa.

To me this makes sense. A law abiding, peaceful and honest person is not nessecary a good guy. He can twist the law but never break it, use loopholes and turn the law itself against others. Or he could live by his own law, like a mobster following the rules of his family. He can stand true to his word, but he just does not disguise his malevolent intentions. And he might be against unessecary violence, since he wants to have subjects once he rules the world.
The same can apply to an unlawful, overly violent and dishonest hero. He might think the laws are corrupt and prefer to do things his own way. And villains are not worth honesty and mercy, so he lies and kills in the name of good.
I feel that this gives us even more options, not less. We can have all the complexity of the three axis alignment system from multiple viewpoints. essentially we get a four axis system this way.

Then we have been told, by the project lead, that the ultimate goal is to have no separation at all. It is something they now need to get the game and the storys working, but will strive to remove. They might even be able to avoid it alltogether, if they can figure out a way around it.

Lastly there was the example of a hero having to stand idly by while a villain beats up the cops. This can be ignored, sure. But they hinted at something greater, at world changing events. I do not know what that will be, but I think those things could be the reason why they feel there is a need to separate at first.

Separation is not a good thing, I do not want it either. However, if it is needed, will only be temporary and something the developers are willing to fix, I can live with it for now. When the reasons are more clear, then I can decide if it is worth it or not.

And by the way, Preatoria worked because it was a secret agent scenario. Rebels and Loyalists both claimed to work for the same side, hiding their true intentions. And every NPC was against the player characters, because you were always undercover. This will likely not be the case in City of Titans.

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Lutan, either you or I are

Lutan, either you or I are misinterpreting what has been said regarding neutral characters. I really hope you are right about them being able to interact with everyone, but when Tannim writes:

"The alignment matrix is not just Law, Honor, and Violence, but will also consist of Hero, Villain, Vigilante, and so on.
Those playing in the more "shades of grey" alignments can decide for themselves where they belong based on how they want to play that character."

That implies to me that 'Vigilantes' will have to choose (just like all of us) whether they see red or blue side. They don't get both at the same time.

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Nina Guardian wrote:
Nina Guardian wrote:

Lutan, either you or I are misinterpreting what has been said regarding neutral characters. I really hope you are right about them being able to interact with everyone, but when Tannim writes:
"The alignment matrix is not just Law, Honor, and Violence, but will also consist of Hero, Villain, Vigilante, and so on.
Those playing in the more "shades of grey" alignments can decide for themselves where they belong based on how they want to play that character."
That implies to me that 'Vigilantes' will have to choose (just like all of us) whether they see red or blue side. They don't get both at the same time.

All I meant was that not everything is binary.

Check the KS update again, those labels affect how many NPC factions view your character. The three-axis alignment allows for ranges of different moralities within each label. At certain points if your character makes enough choices that changes their moralities enough the label can end up changed, affecting the way your character is perceived.


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So Lutan is correct then? If

So Lutan is correct then? If at character creation I define myself as a 'Vigilante' I can see and interact with both self-defined 'Heroes' and 'Villains'?

If so, that's definitely a compromise I can live with.

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I hope we have some clarity

I hope we have some clarity now.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Um...as an aside, you might want to look for a new doctor. You don't have Asperger's Syndrome. You just have unshakable opinions about right and wrong. That is not a disease. Where I come from, it's a virtue.

I hope you're qualified to diagnose. I would also suggest no judgement should be "unshakable" if it limits your ability to adapt your thinking to suit a problem, since then it's not virtue but a handicap.

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what MMO has a good system

what MMO has a good system that accurately depicts evil alignments that the players are actually satisfied with? does this MMO have other alignments? how do these alignments interact, if at all, outside of PVP?

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I may have misinterpreted

I may have misinterpreted things, but to me this here was the reason to believe it will be the way I have written above.

Tannim222 wrote:

Lutan wrote:
I try to put this into CoH terms, to get a better grasp at it.
If I play a Hero, I can see Vigilantes and Scoundrels, but no Villains.
If I play a Vigilante or Scoundrel, I can see everyone.
And if I play a Villain, I can see Vigilantes and Scoundrels, but no Heros.
Except of course in social hubs like our equivalent of the Pocket D.
Correct?

This is the main gist of things as it has been explained to me for pve.
Except for the addition of if you want to deal with the entire spectrum, that is what pvp is for.

There might be more to it than this, maybe you need to switch your "worldview" to hero or villain, depending on what you like to do and who you want to interact with? But the definition of those in-between-alignments is that they do both, heroic and villainous deeds, so they have to be able to interact with both worlds.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

On SWTOR, the Empire is the bad guys! There's no going around that :p SW is a very good vs evil concept. It's what made SW so good to begin with.
WS I felt half assed it. It very much felt like Dominion are evil, when their side consists of psychopathic hamsters. Homicidal psychopaths equal evil, there's just no getting around it. Dominion went about conquering worlds to force them to their way. That's generally considered evil. This doesn't mean the Exiles were very bright, but then it felt a bit cartoony in it's story anyways, so I think it was kinda the point. It was a fun story for me anyways.
WoW I'm a bit more unsure of. I hear the story pretty much says Horde is evil, but then many a Horde player says they're not. Been to long since I played to really decide on it. I only picked a side on that game based on "Which race do I like the looks of most" :p

The reason why SWTOR received some of that is because the existence of Smugglers and Bounty Hunters. Some people felt that those classes should of been part of a neutral faction because realistically they probably wouldn't choose sides, being mercenaries and all.

Wildstar was indeed half-assing grey morality in the case of the Dominion. As you said the Chua is a perfect example of what is wrong with the Dominion (the other parts of it being the bloodthirsty Draken and the ''holier-then thou'' High-born Cassians). That's not even getting into the butchering of Arboria or how the Exile faction started because the aforementioned High-born Cassians were using the very poor Low-Born Cassians for labor and cannon fodder. The worst the Exiles did during the game does not even compare to the worst the Dominion did in the lore or in-game. That's was pretty much the common reason as to why people wanted a 3rd faction that was more grey.

WoW is an interesting case. Both factions commit atrocities on each other throughout the entirety of the game and the lore. The reason why the Horde is commonly mistaken to be the villain/bad faction is simply....there races are not necessarily pretty to look at (that was before Blood Elves appeared and the models for the races were updated). I think some people in that game just want to not be associated with the idiotic faction rivalry or something....

It is a rather common suggestion though in most of the MMOs I have played. The other common suggestion I see is to have no factions at all (that does not necessarily mean no PvP though or character concepts that are more leaning towards villain). The only people who seem to argue against both suggestions are the people who want player faction rivalry (which I cannot wrap my head around and I think it's toxic too a community) or World PvP (and you know how well that goes....).

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Sorry to see you go, Paladin. You've posted some good stuff, you've posted some bad stuff, just like everyone else. You've never failed to be entertaining, even when you were at your most annoying.
Mostly, you were unpredictable. I like unpredictable, especially when I disagree with it from time to time.
Um...as an aside, you might want to look for a new doctor. You don't have Asperger's Syndrome. You just have unshakable opinions about right and wrong. That is not a disease. Where I come from, it's a virtue.

Somehow I missed this post yesterday and only spotted it because someone else quoted it.

Don't worry Greyhawk
Rotten Luck talked me down from the edge. So I'm not going anywhere.

Thanks for the kind words. And the feeling is mutual.
I lock horns with my best friends and I don't think any less of anyone just because I disagree with them.
Truth is very seldom obvious so honest people often have reason to argue about what the truth is.
And most of our clashes aren't even about truth
just what we like or think is best for the game.

As for Asperger's syndrome, vs unshakable opinions:
the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

Funny I never knew what was wrong with me when I was growing up, but I always knew I was different. I just coped. Everyone knew I was weird but not so bad that I couldn't get along with people. If you talk to me about the right subject you might even think I'm smart (I'm not really).
I only found out what my problem was, when I was trying to get help for my son. He also has Asperger's. He's also high functioning but has a lot more problems than I do.

I'm really lucky. If I'd been less functional and been sent to a doctor for help I would have certainly been misdiagnosed because no one in the United States even knew about Aspergers until the 90s. ADHD was the most common diagnosis and it's even possible I could've been diagnosed as retarded. In any case I would've gotten medication I didn't need and it would've made things much worse.

I'm not asking for sympathy, or making excuses.
I'm really sorry to everyone I've offended.
And it's not all the aspergers by any means
I'm German, and Germans have an old saying:
"Whoever is polite to you lies to you".
We tend to be blunt.

I just think maybe it can help us understand each other a little better.

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Bleddyn wrote:
Bleddyn wrote:

Brand X wrote:
On SWTOR, the Empire is the bad guys! There's no going around that :p SW is a very good vs evil concept. It's what made SW so good to begin with.
WS I felt half assed it. It very much felt like Dominion are evil, when their side consists of psychopathic hamsters. Homicidal psychopaths equal evil, there's just no getting around it. Dominion went about conquering worlds to force them to their way. That's generally considered evil. This doesn't mean the Exiles were very bright, but then it felt a bit cartoony in it's story anyways, so I think it was kinda the point. It was a fun story for me anyways.
WoW I'm a bit more unsure of. I hear the story pretty much says Horde is evil, but then many a Horde player says they're not. Been to long since I played to really decide on it. I only picked a side on that game based on "Which race do I like the looks of most" :p

The reason why SWTOR received some of that is because the existence of Smugglers and Bounty Hunters. Some people felt that those classes should of been part of a neutral faction because realistically they probably wouldn't choose sides, being mercenaries and all.
Wildstar was indeed half-assing grey morality in the case of the Dominion. As you said the Chua is a perfect example of what is wrong with the Dominion (the other parts of it being the bloodthirsty Draken and the ''holier-then thou'' High-born Cassians). That's not even getting into the butchering of Arboria or how the Exile faction started because the aforementioned High-born Cassians were using the very poor Low-Born Cassians for labor and cannon fodder. The worst the Exiles did during the game does not even compare to the worst the Dominion did in the lore or in-game. That's was pretty much the common reason as to why people wanted a 3rd faction that was more grey.
WoW is an interesting case. Both factions commit atrocities on each other throughout the entirety of the game and the lore. The reason why the Horde is commonly mistaken to be the villain/bad faction is simply....there races are not necessarily pretty to look at (that was before Blood Elves appeared and the models for the races were updated). I think some people in that game just want to not be associated with the idiotic faction rivalry or something....
It is a rather common suggestion though in most of the MMOs I have played. The other common suggestion I see is to have no factions at all (that does not necessarily mean no PvP though or character concepts that are more leaning towards villain). The only people who seem to argue against both suggestions are the people who want player faction rivalry (which I cannot wrap my head around and I think it's toxic too a community) or World PvP (and you know how well that goes....).

I think it should depend a bit on the setting of the game. However, you can have them all work together and have a bit of rivalry, I think.

I'm not sure of FFXIV's rivalry, but they have 3 groups but players are all on the same side, with the idea being that PvP is just training.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

the Villains as the pale shadow Bad Guys (who never actually do anything truly, meaningfully or epically BAD).

I beg to differ. The Corruption of Pyriss arc was quite thoroughly evil. There needed to be much more like it.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Here's what I've been able to

Here's what I've been able to comprehend so far:

The world you're in is one axis, consisting of "Heroic", "Villainous", and "Open PvP", and you have a means to change it. This is accomplished through phasing tech, so you only see other players and NPCs in that phase. NPCs can spawn in the same place in different phases, and they are independent of each other.

So say a certain street corner spawns a gang of Skulls in the Heroic phase. There could be a spawn of these in the Open PvP phase as well, but they're not literally the same characters. Defeat one set and the other is unaffected. A player only sees one phase at a time. Same with the Villainous phase.

On the other hand, alignment is another set of three axes, independent of phase setting, is set by the decisions you make throughout the game (do you beat up the Skulls, or help them break into the car for a cut of the loot?) and affects how NPCs react to you. For example, if you help the Skulls, they will be unlikely to attack you on sight. But if you bust them, they'll come after you immediately; no hesitation. There may even be a point where you're prevented from attacking them (you took them over, for example, or you're working for them on a story arc). This is determined by a mapping of how Skulls react to the various alignments.

The exceptions would be that some NPC groups attack everyone or run away from everyone or similar, alignment ignored.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Here's what I've been able to comprehend so far:
The world you're in is one axis, consisting of "Heroic", "Villainous", and "Open PvP", and you have a means to change it. This is accomplished through phasing tech, so you only see other players and NPCs in that phase. NPCs can spawn in the same place in different phases, and they are independent of each other.
So say a certain street corner spawns a gang of Skulls in the Heroic phase. There could be a spawn of these in the Open PvP phase as well, but they're not literally the same characters. Defeat one set and the other is unaffected. A player only sees one phase at a time. Same with the Villainous phase.
On the other hand, alignment is another set of three axes, independent of phase setting, is set by the decisions you make throughout the game (do you beat up the Skulls, or help them break into the car for a cut of the loot?) and affects how NPCs react to you. For example, if you help the Skulls, they will be unlikely to attack you on sight. But if you bust them, they'll come after you immediately; no hesitation. There may even be a point where you're prevented from attacking them (you took them over, for example, or you're working for them on a story arc). This is determined by a mapping of how Skulls react to the various alignments.
The exceptions would be that some NPC groups attack everyone or run away from everyone or similar, alignment ignored.

That would present some intriguing possibilities if it plays out that way and is done right.

Formerly known as Bleddyn

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Oh, and I forgot to mention:

Oh, and I forgot to mention: there seems to be no enforced mapping from certain alignment combinations to the different phases. You could be full-on evil and sauntering through the Heroic phase, probably with jack squat to do, but you could still go there. Maybe as a team-up against a greater foe? (Read: the blue-side SG folks want to run a TF and you want to bring your bad-ass red-side character along.) That said, what you do during the TF may bump your alignment levels a bit away from the extremes...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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TheMightyPaladin you aren't

TheMightyPaladin you aren't the only one on these boards who Aspergers Syndrome. I born in the year 1976 and in the US did get the retarded stamp from the mentally questionable Doctors. My mother never bought it and had me tested. Turns out I had another problem that trumped it, hearing loss. Born Deaf most of my issues was shoved into that as the cause.

Wasn't until 2000s I was diagnosed as Aspergers and I was told by a professional who really did know what he was doing. There nothing wrong with the way I think, it's that it's a way of thinking ment for a Hunter Gatherer life. In another time I would be considered one of the best, that Iron hard focus, the annoying times where I keep awake 36 hours plus, How I learn and repeat tasks all would be beneficial to a Hunter's life. Not sure he meant it could be just trying to ease my doubts and fears, still took it to heart.

That half the reason my characters are odd Rotten Luck the Zombie, Aliens, robots. Very few true Human looking characters. I feel I'm different in real life so I make my characters different from the norm.

I get where you are coming from you want a more Silverage type world. Heroes are Heroes, Villains are mustache twirling villains. Where you hear the cries of fandom from the citizens and there no doubt who is who. The tasks you do have a clear sign on the world around you and you feel you have accomplished something grand. Where most of the others on these forums want a more Modern Comic world. Stories that make you question what side you really are, Villains that might be trying to do good just in the wrong way. A world where even if you are out doing good HOW you do it could make you hated by the public.

I wonder have you played the game Journey? It's mostly a single player game but you are online and can run into other players. A new game coming out with such a system is No Man's Sky, it's Single Player but you can see others playing and can interact. Just the chances of running into them is low.

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Reminds me of a line from

Reminds me of a line from Divided Allegiance by Elizabeth Moon where the Paladin candidates are receiving instructions from the paladins in residence, and it has to do with the power of paladins to discern Good and Evil directly, which everyone "knows about" but don't quite understand what it means. One of the paladins teaching the class sums it up this way ...

"Over there are the bad people, and you kill them. And over here are the good people, and they cheer for you."

... which of course gets laughs out of everyone. But the thing is, a lot of people (including the students in that fictional class) sort of reverted to that kind of lazy thinking. After all, bad is bad, right? And paladins are supposed to fight evil and destroy it, aren't they?

The lesson being taught in that particular (fictional) class was that being able to discern Good and Evil directly is no substitute for Being Smart and thinking for yourself. After all, an Evil person might lie to you, since they're Evil ... but they could also tell you the truth, because the truth better serves their purposes and goals, so you can't just assume that evil people lie all the time. Likewise, it's perfectly possible for a Good person to be stubborn and wrong about something, and believe with all that they are that they're right about what they know.

The difficult thing that paladins (and paladin candidates) need to learn, as illustrated in this fictional class, is that Paladins need to be both Good AND Smart ... and that the ability to detect Good and Evil is a TOOL much like any other, which if not used carefully can warp your perceptions of the world around you and the people in it, especially since "real" people are rarely only Good or only Evil, but usually a complex mixture of the two that isn't actually all that easy to untangle into merely This Or That.

Needless to say, ever since reading The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon I've looked towards that fictional example of how paladins "ought to be" as an excellent guide since it doesn't approach the problem of what paladins ARE from a standpoint of absolutes, which I found both compelling and refreshing.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Regarding the segregation-by

Regarding the segregation-by-alignment... I don't have any strong opinions either way.
It seems like there will be some segregation anyway based on the maximum capacity of a phase before a new one has to be created. In other games with this mechanic it hasn't really bothered me a great deal. I can only think of a few occasions where zone chat indicated something interesting was happening right around me and it wasn't. It seems like if there's umpty-ump phases of Titan's Plaza I won't be aware of what's happening in most of them, regardless of player's alignments.
In the case of having to take it to the PvP phase for, what seems to me to be, an edge case of role playing my hero beating up my friend's villain (or vice versa) raises the question...what will the rules of the PvP phase be?
They've said we won't ever be forced to PvP, but does entering the PvP phase automatically give implied consent and leave me and my friend open for ganking or would I further need to flag myself for it?

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

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Rotten Luck is a zombie?

Rotten Luck is a zombie?
Looking at your picture I always thought you were made of metal.

but no I've never heard of Journey or No Mam's Sky.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

One thing I didn't like about the co-inhabited DCUO was that it was clear who was on the red-side(because they had a red name) and who was on the blue-side(because they had a blue name) So you could just be going along doing your daily routine and then someone comes up and kills you for no reason. snip

(If this has been addressed please disregard)

This is the one concern that has kept me away from games like Eve Online and DCUO, I do not like open PvP. In the days of yore in the "City of" days I enjoyed flying alone and no one to bother me while I did missions. Some days I would log out and log back in after a few hours and it's rinse, lather and repeat all day long to give myself a break from repeat missions with my alts. To me this was fun, I also had a choice if I wanted to team or not, which I loved having. Now I avoided certain zones because I did not want the stress of worrying about some shmuck deciding to show how cool his build is on me. I spent most days(for example) in Eve Online running from one place, Station to another worrying if someone was going to blow up my ship in high sec which is suppose to be a non pvp area, Yeah right. Some corp decides to declare war on your corp and it is campers who will blow you up when you leave the station. No thank you.

I was told of a spiritual successor, if your going to be something like that, please keep PvP separate from PvE for those of us who are mild isolationists.

All 4 Mutants

Evolution is key. And mutants are key.

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All 4 Mutants wrote:
All 4 Mutants wrote:

Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
One thing I didn't like about the co-inhabited DCUO was that it was clear who was on the red-side(because they had a red name) and who was on the blue-side(because they had a blue name) So you could just be going along doing your daily routine and then someone comes up and kills you for no reason. snip
(If this has been addressed please disregard)
This is the one concern that has kept me away from games like Eve Online and DCUO, I do not like open PvP. In the days of yore in the "City of" days I enjoyed flying alone and no one to bother me while I did missions. Some days I would log out and log back in after a few hours and it's rinse, lather and repeat all day long to give myself a break from repeat missions with my alts. To me this was fun, I also had a choice if I wanted to team or not, which I loved having. Now I avoided certain zones because I did not want the stress of worrying about some shmuck deciding to show how cool his build is on me. I spent most days(for example) in Eve Online running from one place, Station to another worrying if someone was going to blow up my ship in high sec which is suppose to be a non pvp area, Yeah right. Some corp decides to declare war on your corp and it is campers who will blow you up when you leave the station. No thank you.
I was told of a spiritual successor, if your going to be something like that, please keep PvP separate from PvE for those of us who are mild isolationists.
All 4 Mutants

It seems there will be a separate PvP Phase(s) of the map alongside the PvE.

I wonder, has testing indicated what the maximum capacity of a phase will be before a new one is created?

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

I wonder, has testing indicated what the maximum capacity of a phase will be before a new one is created?

CO has a limit of about 100, but they spawn new ones at a lower population threshold. Hopefully this can be tested and tweaked in beta.

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IIRC GW2 is about the same..

IIRC GW2 is about the same...with the lower threshold being a soft cap. meaning, you can't get to the map without being on a team with some one that is...but once the hard cap is hit, yer butt outta luck chuck.

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

IIRC GW2 is about the same...with the lower threshold being a soft cap. meaning, you can't get to the map without being on a team with some one that is...but once the hard cap is hit, yer butt outta luck chuck.

Some of the events though pump the limit from what I hear. Particularly where the dragons are involved, you can have over 200 people in a single zone instance. Again, that is if I remember correctly.

Now we might go "Thats a bit crap", but when you think about it, it is also dealing with a LOT of additional transactions.

Everything YOU do that affects a group of players, has to then be relayed to all those people. And do that for *EVERY* action that can affect multiple people.

Case in point: Eve Online. Their PvP battles can involve *thousands* of players in the same system/grid map (a grid map being approx 250km by 250km by 250km.).

And when you have a LOT of stuff going on, the server is going to be the thing that if it starts to lag out, it will affect EVERYONE. [1]

This is where "saving the server" is to the benefit of everyone. And also why CCP introduced Time Dilation where the server slows its simulation down so it is no longer being pegged at 100% and unable to process commands fast enough.

So depending on what happens you could have higher caps on "non combat zones" (ie no buff's/debuffs/travel powers allowed) than in zones where using powers is allowed.[2]

[1] This is also why CCP really do like it when you say "heads up, something big and heavy might happen in these systems tomorrow", so that they can shuffle the server loads around during their daily downtime. Just so the almighty fight you are having will not affect other "unrelated" systems.

[2] Also depends as to how much "trust" they put into the client as well to help offload server resources. However, you should never really "trust" the client, as soon you do that, then strange stuff can happen ;)

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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@TheMightyPaladin Yeah the

@TheMightyPaladin Yeah the avatar not as clear miniaturized. The name Rotten Luck takes on a whole different meaning when it's a Zombie "ROTTEN Luck" his background is such where he was a guy down on his LUCK and had one very bad day. The tag line I thought up is "One bad day, can change everything."

No Man's Sky I'm hyped for it's a space exploration game MEGA exploration. The Universe you explore is generated by an algorithm so it's infinite that includes every planet, landmass, plant, and animal. Coming out for the PS4 then later PC. Really got me thinking it's time to get a PS4.

Journey already out and you play a figure crossing a desert. Very striking visual style a real form of Game Art.

@Everyone

I refuse to pass judgement on any game until I play a month and or get to level 20. Enough time and content by then I would make my judgement on understanding of the game. Not just what I think I am reading. That said I want to RP and Interact with my friends no matter what alignment of Good or Evil, and other they are. We have made our views known now and have to trust Wobbercat and the other Devs will at least consider ouf views. Then make the best game they can. Even if there is a wall up it be paper thin with side switching possible.

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It all depends on how vast

It all depends on how vast the content is. I expected a district in Titan City to be LIKE the equivalent of a full zone map in Champions. There's no real evidence to support this so far, but it's where my head's at.

If teams are about 8 person then I don't want to see any more than 2 full teams on one arc of open-world content (to keep spawns available). So if every story arc is about 1.5 levels and every district is expected to have about 6 levels of content then the minimum capacity for a district I'd ask for is 64 Persons who are engaged in story arc'd content.

Take that times 3 factions (Gov't, Soverign, Rebel) and I come closer to 192 persons on each district map. Also in order to have wall-less maps you'd have to have enough road space between districts so the maps can load so like another 8 people doing inter-district travel gives you 200 persons per instance.

We'll see what the final server capacity is but that's my idea.

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Well, sadly I only needed to

Well, sadly I only needed to read 1 thing to know that I won't be playing Journey or No Man's Sky: Playstation
I don't have anything against the system
I just don't have the system and don't plan to get one.

I used to play a lot of Console games until the Wii made me hate them.
and now they all require an internet connection.
My cable company will charge me extra money for an extra connection,
not just to hook it up but every month forever
so the only internet in my house is going to be on my computer.

maybe one day they'll be on Steam.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Well, sadly I only needed to read 1 thing to know that I won't be playing Journey or No Man's Sky: Playstation
I don't have anything against the system
I just don't have the system and don't plan to get one.
I used to play a lot of Console games until the Wii made me hate them.
and now they all require an internet connection.
My cable company will charge me extra money for an extra connection,
not just to hook it up but every month forever
so the only internet in my house is going to be on my computer.
maybe one day they'll be on Steam.

You can get a router (as cheap as $30, on sale) and have as many devices as it can support without incurring an extra charge from the cable company. There might be a charge for Sony's online service, though.
I don't have a PlayStation either but I think it has a monthly subscription. Same for XBox.
I might check out No Man's Sky when/if it gets ported to PC.

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I recommend a Wireless WIFI

I recommend a Wireless WIFI network. That way all your devices including smart phones, tablets, and other such hand held gagets can use the same single connection. That's what I have in my house.

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No charge for online play

No charge for online play with the playstation. They do have a Playstation Plus subscription fee, which does also include some extras (such as free game downloads from their back catalogue); however basic online play requires no ongoing fee as standard. The exceptions are the ones that have online passes

Not so sure with Xbox at the moment. I believe that all online gameplay requires Xbox Live.. could be wrong, but that was the case in the past

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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My cable company doesn't

My cable company doesn't offer wifi
also I know my neighbors.
If I had wifi, they'd cancel their internet and leach off mine so I my speed would suck.

But most of all I'm just not interested in buying a console game system.
They're too expensive.
and I wouldn't use it much because I've gotten used to doing all of my gaming on the computer.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

My cable company doesn't offer wifi
also I know my neighbors.
If I had wifi, they'd cancel their internet and leach off mine so I my speed would suck.

Your information is way out of date.

Your cable company doesn't get a say in this. All you need to do is buy a WiFi/Router/Firewall device. D-Link has some, and I've used Apple Airport devices with zero problem. These devices have an Ethernet port you plug into your cable modem, and one or more Ethernet ports for your local devices. It sets up a firewall to keep most idiots out of your stuff. And it acts as a WiFi base station. Set it up with WPA2 Personal encryption and a password (one you're OK giving out to people who visit) and that keeps the neighbors out.

Easy peasy.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

But most of all I'm just not interested in buying a console game system.
They're too expensive.
and I wouldn't use it much because I've gotten used to doing all of my gaming on the computer.

Same here. My consoles are Dreamcast and Saturn. I've learned my lesson.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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That doesn't sound easy peasy

That doesn't sound easy peasy to me it sounds super complicated.
But it might be worth it, because if I get it set up my son could get on the other computer and we could play Dungeons & Dragons online together. We could set up a FTP account in addition to the pay account I have. Then we could take turns using the pay account and we'd be awesome.

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What Lin Chiao Feng said.

What Lin Chiao Feng said. You plug a wifi network router to your modem/cable device instead of the computer hook that to your computer for a hard line. The Routers would have a password protection on them (if you choose to have it locked) written on a sticker on the bottom of the Router. Most have at least a 16 digit password of numbers letters and CAP letters. Some even go into the 24 character passwords.

The added benefit is the Hard wire Firewall it provides for your computer. True a hacker might get past, but it would be harder then and a waste of time for a simple snooping hack job.

-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP

Lin Chiao Feng
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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

That doesn't sound easy peasy to me it sounds super complicated.

It's less complicated than setting up a prebuilt computer with Windows preinstalled.

  1. Take router out of box.
  2. Plug in power.
  3. Plug cable modem's Ethernet cable into WAN port.
  4. Plug existing computer's Ethernet into one of the LAN ports.
  5. Turn it on.
  6. On the computer, go to the URL the instructions give you. Give it a name (I recommend "GTFO" because neighbors) and password for your WiFi, making sure to select "WPA2 personal" for security.
  7. Change any other settings you want, but the defaults are probably fine.
  8. Profit!

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

TheMightyPaladin
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Okee dokee.

Okee dokee.
Next year when I get my tax refund and buy my new computer maybe I can get the router thingy too.

Fireheart
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We'll be happy to assist you

We'll be happy to assist you in choosing an appropriate router, Paladin. And, might I suggest that your son may have lots of fun setting up the router for you? It's amazing what youngsters know how to do, these days.

Be Well!
Fireheart

whiteperegrine
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routers are relatively cheap.

routers are relatively cheap....so no need to wait a whole year. :)

Kiyori Anoyui
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If you want a fairly cheap

If you want a fairly cheap model that will have all the easy to setup benefits, I would suggest this:

Netgear(What I use)
24.99
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=&cs=04&sku=A2866576&ST=pla&dgc=ST&cid=262075&lid=4742361&acd=1230980794501410

It comes with easy to use parental controls as well if you wanted to block access to different sites

But wifi routers are a no brainer must have for any household. At my house we have 2 chromecasts, ipads, iphones, wifi desktop and 2 laptops connected to the router!

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Komulous
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So that was interesting!

So that was interesting!

Hello all. For some reason I have just found about the game, sorry I missed the Kickstarter. Anyway, I came and made a profile to scope out in the forums what the deal with villains was as I was never really a CoH player. To me the game was CoV with some blue-side nonesense attached to it ;)

There's certainly some strong views here, some verging on entitled (isn't that that always the way with gamers these days) although I will say @Lutan seem to speak a lot of sense and not get too hysterical about things and I seem to share his opinions on stuff so far. It sounds alright to me but I do tend to wait and see how things play before I start throwing the toys out. Been a gamer too long to cry about things that I haven't tested as you never really know how good something is until you test it. Then again I could just be super happy that there may be a successor - spiritual or otherwise - to my one of my favourite games so what do I know. Will be following your progress closely. Thnaks guys and if you could find some way to have a spiritual successor to my precious Fort/Widow (Wife Of Komulous) then that would be great =)

Gluke
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The **** really hit the fan

The **** really hit the fan on this thread, especially when you note most of the replies were posted over the course of hours rather than days. Judging from the responses given:

Tannim222 wrote:

Lutan wrote:
I try to put this into CoH terms, to get a better grasp at it.
If I play a Hero, I can see Vigilantes and Scoundrels, but no Villains.
If I play a Vigilante or Scoundrel, I can see everyone.
And if I play a Villain, I can see Vigilantes and Scoundrels, but no Heros.
Except of course in social hubs like our equivalent of the Pocket D.
Correct?
This is the main gist of things as it has been explained to me for pve.
Except for the addition of if you want to deal with the entire spectrum, that is what pvp is for.

warcabbit wrote:

I will say the following.
1: We are not separating heroes and villians like Paragon and the Rogue Isles.
2: Hero to Villain and back is a player controlled switch.
3: Dueling is intended to be possible, even in a PvE zone.
4: Outside spawns get _interesting_ when you start combining the two sides in the same location.
5: People do get upset when someone starts shooting cops and they can't do anything about it.
And, of course, seeing the Joker lounging about on the steps of City Hall is a bit of an immersion breaker for Superman.

If this is the final case, it's not so bad, I guess. I would just know that my toons would spend the vast majority of their time in PVP. I don't care if I got ganked (tho hopefully there would be some measures or mechanism in place to help with that), it would be worth it to see the most inclusive phase possible. The rest of the time, I guess they'd be in the opposing sides' phase, trying to stop said-side in a PVE capacity. I am guessing the faction phases would be used as social hubs for those factions.

I wonder if the reactions in this thread were in any way related to the beta-launch pushback? Did the devs decide to re-evaluate based on the negative response?

"TRUST ME."

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