Limited Penalty for Death

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Gangrel
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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
And yes, my guild is still raiding, and we take the downtime between deaths to discuss what went wrong and what we can do to avoid it. This downtime also comes in useful when we are dealing with 2-3 different languages, so we also take the time to translate stuff.

Heh.. is that you in that Anime: http://www.crunchyroll.com/log-horizon/episode-10-guild-master-661797
;)

Nah, I am not a guild master. But sometimes after just butting our heads against a boss for a period of time, it can definitely feel that way.

To be honest, that speech at the start (seriously, after 10 minutes I stopped watching) , it reminded me about what happened to my alliance in Eve Online several years back, when we lost space to BoB/Pandemic Legion (amongst others).

We were seriously deflated, but we managed to pull it back together and carry on to fight (and annoy) other alliances another day.

Was a total blast though fighting for what we had earned at that point, and showing the bigger players that although we might be small, we sure as hell were NOT going to be pushed out of our space without putting one hell of a fight.

Even if it meant that we were having to get into *any* ship[1] that we could strap guns to and kicking them in the teeth.

[1] Yes, we did have battle badgers out there....

But that is whole other story for another day.

/derail

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I couldn't have said that any

I couldn't have said that any better!!! That was perfect! :)

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Having the "enhancements" get

Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

There does need to be a way to help avoid inflation, but I never liked the feeling of constantly working just to stay at full power that there was in DCUO and TSW with "gear degradation". It just doesn't seem to generally fit into the genre and isn't a very fun mechanic.

I'd personally rather they find another way--but if the game NEEDS this mechanic, so be it. I'll still play :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Izzy
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

I thought Training, Dual, Single Origins were doing that. :P
It was the Crafted IO's that didnt need to be touched for Ever, if you chose. ;D
But Crafted IO's came in later levels. :)

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

I thought Training, Dual, Single Origins were doing that. :P
It was the Crafted IO's that didnt need to be touched for Ever, if you chose. ;D
But Crafted IO's came in later levels. :)

SO's once you hit 50 didn't need to be replaced. So back to no money sinks and inflation. And CoH was easy enough, how often did people really slot TO's?

One could easily run the sewers and get to 10 without any enhancements. Even at level 10 running Positron TF (version 1 and version 2) one could generally make it without any enhancements.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

There does need to be a way to help avoid inflation, but I never liked the feeling of constantly working just to stay at full power that there was in DCUO and TSW with "gear degradation". It just doesn't seem to generally fit into the genre and isn't a very fun mechanic.
I'd personally rather they find another way--but if the game NEEDS this mechanic, so be it. I'll still play :).

Just a thought on how to play the enhancements. I don't even like the idea of copying CoH's enhancements almost exactly, which is how it seems to be right now, but then if it didn't copy CoH, it just seem like it was copying some other MMO, so no real worries there.

Another idea for a money sink is to actually have bases cost money and not make it so cheap that everyone has one.

However it's done, I just hope to see CoT actually have a money sink, so we don't repeat what CoH had.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Izzy wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

I thought Training, Dual, Single Origins were doing that. :P
It was the Crafted IO's that didnt need to be touched for Ever, if you chose. ;D
But Crafted IO's came in later levels. :)

SO's once you hit 50 didn't need to be replaced. So back to no money sinks and inflation. And CoH was easy enough, how often did people really slot TO's?
One could easily run the sewers and get to 10 without any enhancements. Even at level 10 running Positron TF (version 1 and version 2) one could generally make it without any enhancements.

Oh Noes.. you wan to have Crafted IO's degrade also?.. but on a much slower scale, taking a month or so? :|

Hmm..
Other Origins used EverReady Batteries... and die much sooner?!
Crafter IO's used Energizer Bunny Batteries.. and last much longer, deplete slower, but still Die eventually?!

*thinks* I dont know how that would make people feel, since some of those might be Store Bought. :{

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

There does need to be a way to help avoid inflation, but I never liked the feeling of constantly working just to stay at full power that there was in DCUO and TSW with "gear degradation". It just doesn't seem to generally fit into the genre and isn't a very fun mechanic.
I'd personally rather they find another way--but if the game NEEDS this mechanic, so be it. I'll still play :).

Just a thought on how to play the enhancements. I don't even like the idea of copying CoH's enhancements almost exactly, which is how it seems to be right now, but then if it didn't copy CoH, it just seem like it was copying some other MMO, so no real worries there.
Another idea for a money sink is to actually have bases cost money and not make it so cheap that everyone has one.
However it's done, I just hope to see CoT actually have a money sink, so we don't repeat what CoH had.

Our 'enhancement system that being the Augments and Refinements while being similar to CoH in that they are slotted into sockets within powers assigned by players and they each act as improvements to the power, how they do this is quite a bit different than CoH. Not only that, but we are looking at some major fundamental shifts away from how they degraded by level and other changes as well.

With regards to the economy we have a spattering of comments in several threads on these boards but given how there isn't a functional dev tracker I can see how it can be difficult to keep track of what has been said. Allow me to summarize.

CoT will have a functional player auction house at launch. The old game didn't have one which exasperated the inflation problem by the time one became available, the reasons for this are many but the fundamental root to them was mainly that the 'currency, of that old game was not thought of, nor treated as, economic currency by the devs (for quite a long while) nor necessarily treated as such within the context of the game.

On the surface this may not see like a big deal, but it actually is. By thinking of CoT having an economic in game currency from the outset of play leads to creating an entire economy system in which currency is a major part.

One of the pieces of this system that is being looked at is having NPCs with an AI taught to play the market. Thus they can both buy items and sell them, taking, using, and potentially "banking" (read as remove from the economy) game currency.

Another change that occurs is in how game currency is generated in order to work within the economic system, the old game having not originally viewed its 'currency' as economic currency did not have to account for how it was generated might affect the world economy because one did not initially exist. By the time it did, the shop had sailed.

Needless to say, we have a different mind set and thus, different take on how to create an economic system.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

By the time it did, the shop had sailed.

I see what you did there. And thanks for the info!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Brand X
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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Izzy wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Having the "enhancements" get damaged and have to be repaired would be a good way to help with inflation (which CoH was terrible with).

I thought Training, Dual, Single Origins were doing that. :P
It was the Crafted IO's that didnt need to be touched for Ever, if you chose. ;D
But Crafted IO's came in later levels. :)

SO's once you hit 50 didn't need to be replaced. So back to no money sinks and inflation. And CoH was easy enough, how often did people really slot TO's?
One could easily run the sewers and get to 10 without any enhancements. Even at level 10 running Positron TF (version 1 and version 2) one could generally make it without any enhancements.

Oh Noes.. you wan to have Crafted IO's degrade also?.. but on a much slower scale, taking a month or so? :|
Hmm..
Other Origins used EverReady Batteries... and die much sooner?!
Crafter IO's used Energizer Bunny Batteries.. and last much longer, deplete slower, but still Die eventually?!
*thinks* I dont know how that would make people feel, since some of those might be Store Bought. :{

I was thinking more like gear in other games. After awhile if they're not repaired, they're useless untill repaired. You don't lose them forever.

Izzy
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Oh Noes.. you wan to have Crafted IO's degrade also?.. but on a much slower scale, taking a month or so? :|
Hmm..
Other Origins used EverReady Batteries... and die much sooner?!
Crafter IO's used Energizer Bunny Batteries.. and last much longer, deplete slower, but still Die eventually?!
*thinks* I dont know how that would make people feel, since some of those might be Store Bought. :{

I was thinking more like gear in other games. After awhile if they're not repaired, they're useless until repaired. You don't lose them forever.

I see. As long as they dont need constant repairs after just a few missions, but maybe.. after a level or two, thats fine. :)
But thats kinda like Combining dropped SO's with existing ones. :/

Don't really know. :<

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

But thats kinda like Combining dropped SO's with existing ones. :/
Don't really know. :<

Well, I'm sure how much damage they take when getting attacked is set to whatever the devs want it to be. So, they could last quite awhile or need repaired every mission. I'm sure it would be better than that though.

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Well I've stated preciously

Well I've stated preciously in this thread augs and refs are not thought of as traditional gear and we are not using repair costs / item damage for CoT.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Well I've stated preciously in this thread augs and refs are not thought of as traditional gear and we are not using repair costs / item damage for CoT.

And I, for one, found that assurance quite precious.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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NW uses a corrupted version

NW uses a corrupted version of the D&D4E death rules. If you die, anybody can res you even in combat provided they do it within n seconds. This gives you a longer timer in minutes where you can't be ressed by that method again. It works OK.

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I've always viewed Item

I've always viewed Item Degredation as an acceptable mechanic is there is an acceptable (ie. sink) way to counter the effects. Whether that be going to an NPC "in town" and clicking on a Repair All button to drain currency, or making use of "vendor bait" common drops that are dropping all the time ... either way is something I'd consider acceptable. It's when you start getting into multi-hoop "crafting" equip items, particularly if they're EXCESSIVELY rare, that such a system becomes way more punitive than it's worth.

Seen in that light, I'd consider a Death Penalty that destroys TO, DO and SO Enhancements to be acceptable, because those dropped quite frequently and were effectively "vendor bait" items that clogged your inventory anyway. They were also relatively easy to obtain from vendors if you needed them. Allowing the same thing to happen with IO Enhancements ... even just letting it happen to the Common IOs ... would not be a good thing, I'm thinking, simply because of the "expense" of gathering the materials to make them (and time lost going to the crafting stations, etc.). Letting it happen to the Set IOs (let alone the purples!) would be a "OH HELL NO!!" sort of deal breaker.

So even for me, there's a sliding scale of tolerance for this kind of thing, where I don't mind having "commons" getting broken if they're easy to replace ... but I do mind "uncommons" and "rares" and "purples" getting broken, for what ought to be obvious reasons. This is in part why I originally suggested having an Enhancement system that standardized on SOs only (effectively) and left any sort of Crafted Enhancements for post-Launch. It was one of those "close the circle" kinds of suggestions.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Seen in that light, I'd consider a Death Penalty that destroys TO, DO and SO Enhancements to be acceptable, because those dropped quite frequently and were effectively "vendor bait" items that clogged your inventory anyway.

I'll see your TO, DO, or SO enhancements degradation/destruction and raise you a "stamina". In other words, rather than destroying or degrading 'equipment' that does not actually exist, such activities, and especially a defeat, hits on a catch-all "stamina" trait. So, rather than trying to find some reasoning for fixing a nothing, you incur a payment, of sorts, for recovering your stamina. Heck, as far as I'm concerned stamina can even recover over time. So, a person can either wait 10, 15, or 30 minutes to recover their stamina or they can pay to recover immediately. Leave the "how" up to the player. They can call it a shot of adrenaline, a power nap, a fruit smoothie, popping some 1-[4-ethoxy-3-(6,7-dihydro-1-methyl-7-oxo-3-propyl-1H-pyrazolo[4,3-d]pyrimidin-5-yl) phenylsulfonyl]-4-methylpiperazine, a mocha latte, or whatever.

Some kind of generic "wear and tear" can be justified for almost any hero or villain. Same thing, different presentation.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Oh Noes.. you wan to have Crafted IO's degrade also?.. but on a much slower scale, taking a month or so? :|
Hmm..
Other Origins used EverReady Batteries... and die much sooner?!
Crafter IO's used Energizer Bunny Batteries.. and last much longer, deplete slower, but still Die eventually?!
*thinks* I dont know how that would make people feel, since some of those might be Store Bought. :{

I was thinking more like gear in other games. After awhile if they're not repaired, they're useless until repaired. You don't lose them forever.

I see. As long as they dont need constant repairs after just a few missions, but maybe.. after a level or two, thats fine. :)
But thats kinda like Combining dropped SO's with existing ones. :/
Don't really know. :<

To be honest, I found in most MMO's that at least in the levelling process you are going to be fine and unless you are dying every 5 minutes or so for a couple of hours will you be in trouble.

For example, in Wildstar... I repair my items whenever I am at a vendor. It is just habit for me. But I don't have to. I don't even have to repair after every single death.

I can die 25-30 times before I am "forced" to repair. I am not penalised for spending time between repairs though.

And yes, in raids, I can end up getting down to 30% remaining. But this is with no performance decrease. I also end up with a nice large repair bill, but I am playing at the *high end* of the game. In CoX terms, I am not just doing Incarnate content, I am at the Lore/Destiny (just getting to T4 the hell out of that), whilst also dabbling with the Magistarium content.

The amount of currency that I earn in comparison to a normal "level 50" character is incredible. I kill faster, die less... and even with the increased repair costs that I have (having high end raid gear does this) I am still making a boat load of cash.

Of course, having a lot of NPC cosmetic/QOL stuff to spend this on is good as well to remove in game currency.

Now back to the main thread. It doesn't have to "armour repair", it could be (as suggested) a Stamina bar. But the same thinking behind it all still applies.

Side note: One thing that DOES bug me with WoW and is not in Wildstar is resurrection sickness. But then again, Wildstar doesn't deal with corpse runs. Instead you can spend a fee (increases with level) to rez where you died[1].

I admit I use this option even at level cap... just because sometimes I cannot cope with the 10 second run to get back to where I was. And yet other times, I will do 3-4 minutes trek back to where I was.

What can I say, I am lazy sometimes.

[1] Limited to once every 30 minutes. But remember, this is only really needed when you are playing solo. In dungeons/raids they have their own rules concerning death ie if everyone is dead, then at least one person has to go to the graveyard, there is no "respawn here" option. However because everyone can rez other players out of combat, characters with summons are nice to have.

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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I've always viewed Item Degredation as an acceptable mechanic is there is an acceptable (ie. sink) way to counter the effects. Whether that be going to an NPC "in town" and clicking on a Repair All button to drain currency, or making use of "vendor bait" common drops that are dropping all the time ... either way is something I'd consider acceptable. It's when you start getting into multi-hoop "crafting" equip items, particularly if they're EXCESSIVELY rare, that such a system becomes way more punitive than it's worth.
Seen in that light, I'd consider a Death Penalty that destroys TO, DO and SO Enhancements to be acceptable, because those dropped quite frequently and were effectively "vendor bait" items that clogged your inventory anyway. They were also relatively easy to obtain from vendors if you needed them. Allowing the same thing to happen with IO Enhancements ... even just letting it happen to the Common IOs ... would not be a good thing, I'm thinking, simply because of the "expense" of gathering the materials to make them (and time lost going to the crafting stations, etc.). Letting it happen to the Set IOs (let alone the purples!) would be a "OH HELL NO!!" sort of deal breaker.
So even for me, there's a sliding scale of tolerance for this kind of thing, where I don't mind having "commons" getting broken if they're easy to replace ... but I do mind "uncommons" and "rares" and "purples" getting broken, for what ought to be obvious reasons. This is in part why I originally suggested having an Enhancement system that standardized on SOs only (effectively) and left any sort of Crafted Enhancements for post-Launch. It was one of those "close the circle" kinds of suggestions.

This is an interesting suggestion, but hypothetically isn't the playerbase's response to "SO/DO/TOs are fragile, IOs are durable" going to be to ultimately just slot IOs in everything so as to avoid the penalties for getting defeated altogether then? If so, at that point you're basically only penalizing the "poor" and waiving the penalty for the "rich" aren't you? In an attempt to appease those lucky, hard working toons who finally got to the top of the mountain and earned their swag they wanted the hard way, you are effectively levying a "death tax" that only applies to lowbie/newbie toons and allowing the veteran/level-capped toons to skate with no death penalty at all. It seems kind of unfair to do that, to me. It also defeats the purpose of having a defeat penalty in the first place if it can be avoided by getting rich enough to slot the good gear like that.

On a realistic note, as I've said, I'm not against having it the way CoX had it for defeats, that's fine with me. I've also been vocal that I'm not against more harsh rules either. That said, I think if "gear degradation/loss upon defeat" is going to be a thing, it needs to be a thing that you'd have to resort to LESS effective gear to try to avoid. The idea being that a high-roller with a lot of really awesome enhancements should feel like they're taking MORE of a risk carrying that stuff around and showing off their bling in the rough neighborhoods of the world than a person who chooses to make do with less effective gear and deal with the lack of advantages in combat which that causes.

Maybe having a rule that you definitely lose one enhancement upon defeat each time isn't the best option, maybe you could have it set up so that every time you get defeated, each enhancement you have slotted (and in your personal inventory tray) rolls randomly to save vs destruction, with only a very small chance to get destroyed each time, and the chances can be tweaked mathematically by the devs on an item-by-item basis, with the more powerful IOs being more fragile and the less powerful ones being more durable, for example (other options exist there too, maybe one particular purple is really durable for what it does, and thus pretty popular and expensive to obtain on the market, etc). Also, as I've been saying, set bonuses, powers, uniques, procs, different rez options, etc can affect that in various ways too.

For example, if you die while on a team in a mission map, if your friend uses a power to rez you, maybe the rez power ensures that you're way less likely to lose anything, all item destruction odds go down, maybe some even become "safe", but if you go to the hospital you have a regular chance of losing stuff, the standard deal, but then if you're on a map with a jail room, and you go there, you end up with a GREATER chance to lose stuff (all destruction odds are increased, as the badguys search you when they incarcerate you, etc). Different levels/types of Wakies might have different effects on the odds of losing stuff too, etc. You could even have a fight in a mission against the dreaded "Rust Monster" which has an aura that makes the odds of losing gear skyrocket when it defeats you.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Seen in that light, I'd consider a Death Penalty that destroys TO, DO and SO Enhancements to be acceptable, because those dropped quite frequently and were effectively "vendor bait" items that clogged your inventory anyway.
I'll see your TO, DO, or SO enhancements degradation/destruction and raise you a "stamina". In other words, rather than destroying or degrading 'equipment' that does not actually exist, such activities, and especially a defeat, hits on a catch-all "stamina" trait. So, rather than trying to find some reasoning for fixing a nothing, you incur a payment, of sorts, for recovering your stamina. Heck, as far as I'm concerned stamina can even recover over time. So, a person can either wait 10, 15, or 30 minutes to recover their stamina or they can pay to recover immediately. Leave the "how" up to the player. They can call it a shot of adrenaline, a power nap, a fruit smoothie, popping some 1-[4-ethoxy-3-(6,7-dihydro-1-methyl-7-oxo-3-propyl-1H-pyrazolo[4,3-d]pyrimidin-5-yl) phenylsulfonyl]-4-methylpiperazine, a mocha latte, or whatever.
Some kind of generic "wear and tear" can be justified for almost any hero or villain. Same thing, different presentation.

This gives me the idea that when a person is defeated they should see their current hit points, endurance, and momentum bars zero out, and when they wake up, those bars start at or near zero and their regen/recovery rates are very slow for a period of time. Then you could have the length of the "rate-nerfed" time period and amount of rate-nerf-age be adjustable in various ways (again, powers, insps, set bonuses, etc). This might end up being akin to a time-out, but at least there's an immersive excuse for having it. You got defeated, so you're not operating at nearly 100% after you come around and get back on your feet. I think that feels reasonably appropriate in context at least. Whether or not this should be the only bad thing that happens I don't know, but I like it. Also, was this what you were suggesting here?

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"Stamina" is the suggestion

"Stamina" is the suggestion that the characters are not the Energizer Bunny. They can take a lickin' and keep on tickin', but eventually they need to take five. (Presumably even the Hulk needs to stop to grab an energy bar every now and then.)

It's a variant on the repair mechanic as Gangrel presented it. Unless you're running your head into a wall ever few minutes, chances are that "repairing" a character's stamina will not need to be frequent. A whole mission might cost a few percent in stamina while the defeat / death penalty might be a straight 10% loss. This is quite independent on the question of where or how a character might recover from a defeat, and the state they'll be in when they do so.

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As I'd previously stated

As I'd previously stated elsewhere, Radiac, the basic idea is that HOW you get up from a faceplant would determine how "harsh" your Death Penalty would be.

Used a Power? Pitiful token penalty (and maybe not even that). I can imagine some Resurrect Other powers being completely Death Penalty free.
Used a Wakie? Consuming an Inspiration would be the next possibility. Light Death Penalty is what I'm thinking.
Used the Hospital? This is where you'd encounter "item destruction" in terms of losing ONE slotted Enhancement.

In other words, the "maximum penalty" of suffering item destruction would be a matter of "choice" and also something that could be avoided.

As for the TO/DO/SO vs IO thing ... honestly, I'd rather dump the IOs (and the sets) entirely for game Launch. Once IOs were introduced, an incredibly major INF sink just vanished out of City of Heroes (which, to be fair, kept everyone under 50 dirt poor and everyone at 50 comfortably rich). Remember, anything that can be MADE that NEVER BREAKS is just an inflationary spiral waiting to go out of control. Or at least, that's the way I look at it.


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We aren't going to use item

We aren't going to use item destruction at all.
Using a hospital would be its on penalty of time spent away for getting back into the situation.
Defeat itself will already result in a penalty - the loss of additional bonuses for achievement bonuses.
We will have crafted Augs and Refs at launch, most likely no Aug and Ref Sets though.


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More good news. Thanks for

More good news. Thanks for the official word, Tannim!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Debt wasn't a "problem" in later years, but early on, in you were a Blaster, you "lived" in a constant state of Debt and rarely (if ever) got out of it.
I'm on record with the idea that loss of Slotted Enhancements upon Player Defeat is acceptable IF AND ONLY IF you aren't dealing with some sort of Crafted Inventions system of Enhancements. That's because it's "acceptable" to lose Common Enhancements that are "dropping" all the time and which can be bought from vendor NPCs and thus are "no big deal" to replace ... mainly because they're effectively Vendor Bait most of the time. It is NOT acceptable to have unique/rare/difficult to obtain/costly Crafted Enhancements getting destroyed by Player Defeats, simply because of the degrees and lengths of effort needed to gather the resources it takes to craft those Enhancements.
Imagine being defeated and losing a Crafted Purple Enhancement from one of your Slots as a penalty. RAGEQUIT !!!
Losing a Single Origin is "no big deal" if they're falling like rain as Drops all the time, but losing a Hamidon Origin (or Synthetic Hamidon Origin) obtained as a reward for completing a Task Force/Strike Force/Hamidon Raid is unacceptable. The key being that just like a Debt Penalty on XP, if the Enhancements are "easy come, easy go" then their loss is an acceptable Death Penalty. However, if you're dealing with a "hard to come by, easy to lose" scenario, that is NOT acceptable(!) ... because it will only create a conventional wisdom of "never use what you can't AFFORD to lose" in builds.

The standard reason to have some form of death penalty is to prevent 'zerging' and to force players to use some common sense.

The logical solution to this would be to let each defeat put some sort of invisible timed value on the character. After a while it will wear off again and everything is back to normal. But several deaths in quick succession will see those values start to stack. The bigger the stack, the higher the chance of something unpleasant happening when defeated /again/

In SW:ToR getting defeated in quick succession started to increase the waiting period before you could be resurrected. You could opt to go to the hospital and that would burn off some of the counters, but it also meant having to run back to the mission. The idea was to give players a wake-up call that the content they were trying was a bit beyond them. (of course EA being EA they also made sure that F2P players had to buy fairly expensive ressurrection tokens)

For CoT it /could/ (not saying it is necessarily a good idea) start increasing the chance of losing an enhancement and increase the limit of which enhancements could be lost. The first one or two are free, but by the time you end up with more than 5 defeats in quick succession you would reach the point where you not only stand a realistic chance of losing an enhancement, but also that even crafted ones can be affected (though maybe not yet the raid or taskforce or unique ones)
To get out of the danger zone players would have to either play smarter, try something less fatal, or go to the hospital to burn off a couple of those charges (for a price of course).
This way players would not be penalised for a mistake, nor for a mistake and an accident, but if they play stupid and insist on keeping doing so, the game will start to not so gently correct them. For an idea like this to work, however, from the part of the developers there must be the pact that they don't create situations where (squishy) characters face instant death from (near) unavoidable attacks.

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I do not like the idea of

I do not like the idea of losing an enhancement. It can mean that as you continue to die you become even weaker. Furthermore it can create a lot of animosity if a player loses an expensive enhancement because another player discoed or some other trivial thing. Creating a rift between players for any reason is bad and one of the reasons COH developed into the community it did. There were only superficial reasons to hold a grudge. Dying for any reason wasn't really a cause for concern. So if you try to give the death penalty more weight you are going to create some tension that didn't exist in COH and will change the feel of the game.

Therefore any death penalty needs to be non-tangible. You lose a little time traveling back to the mission from the Hosp which after travel powers is a minor point or you don't level as fast for awhile.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Furthermore it can create a lot of animosity if a player loses an expensive enhancement because another player discoed or some other trivial thing. Creating a rift between players for any reason is bad and one of the reasons COH developed into the community it did.

+1000

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Grimfox wrote:
Furthermore it can create a lot of animosity if a player loses an expensive enhancement because another player discoed or some other trivial thing. Creating a rift between players for any reason is bad and one of the reasons COH developed into the community it did.
+1000

Werd.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Izzy wrote:
Grimfox wrote:
Furthermore it can create a lot of animosity if a player loses an expensive enhancement because another player discoed or some other trivial thing. Creating a rift between players for any reason is bad and one of the reasons COH developed into the community it did.
+1000
Werd.

This.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We aren't going to use item destruction at all.
Using a hospital would be its on penalty of time spent away for getting back into the situation.
Defeat itself will already result in a penalty - the loss of additional bonuses for achievement bonuses.
We will have crafted Augs and Refs at launch, most likely no Aug and Ref Sets though.

Whew...thank god.

Just dying by itself was enough of a penalty for me. Bothered me immensely even when my 50s would die in battle even though there was no real penalty at all. It's still "losing" and that's the biggest possible penalty to me.

I would hate to think there would be some extra penalty just for having fun in a solo mission to test your limits or to have a laugh by trying to do something you know was beyond you. Like how you just knew you were going to most likely die a lot as a Blaster in Hami raids or Mothership raids. That's something else on the long list of things CoH got right. Making losing hurt more isn't a positive in my mind. More like salt in a wound.

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I just we will something like

I just hope we will have something like the universal resurrection token, affectionately called the "wakie." Something that can be used to revive yourself or a teammate while still in the mission. For me, that was one of the best things in CoH. They weren't prohibitively expensive and they were easy to deploy. It really helped keep the team together and moving forward.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

I just hope we will have something like the universal resurrection token, affectionately called the "wakie." Something that can be used to revive yourself or a teammate while still in the mission. For me, that was one of the best things in CoH. They weren't prohibitively expensive and they were easy to deploy. It really helped keep the team together and moving forward.

You will be able to use banked Reserves for this purpose.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
I don't want the game to encourage us to walk away. For me, that bouncing back into battle after a defeat was something that captured the essence of comic book combat. I'd hate to lose it.
Use a Wakie ... no loss from Defeat(?)
Use a Power to Rez (either self or other) ... no loss from Defeat
Use a Hospital or a Base to Rez ... loss from Defeat
In other words, it's possible to rig a "Lose an Enhancement" system such that the penalty is imposed not at the time of being Defeated, but rather at the time of choosing where to recuperate. Only if you choose(!) to "Hospital" would there be an associated cost of "we got most of you, but not all of you, I'm afraid" that results in the loss of ONE random Enhancement.
Don't want to break your Enhancements by using Hospital services? Carry Wakies or have a "friend" who can use a Power to give you a Rez so you can stand back up (and stagger drunkenly for a few seconds).
S impleE asyE ffective
So rather than breaking an Enhancement upon defeat, instead you'd be breaking an Enhancement upon use of Hospital option ... which is easily "avoidable" with even minimal planning ahead.

How bout no? Everquest did something like this, and it's a PAIN to lose some things, especially if you're a low-level. I say, a little XP debt is fine. Better is perhaps diminished capacity, whereas you don't fight as good... but defeating the bad guys brings the capacity back. More severe a penalty than CO (which it uses diminished capacity), but not so severe as to take away from the game.

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This thread is far too long

This thread is far too long to see if this has been mentioned before, but I think one of the penalties for dying (in a mission) is to re-awaken in a cell or some kind of reinforced room where you have to break your way out. In fact I believe this was done in COH (apologies if it has) and I thought this was one of the fun parts of being on a team and in a tough mission. While dying can be annoying, part of the fun is waking up and having to fight your way out, and there were some circumstances where if you were too weak to get yourself out of the space (healer, controller) there was always help from your teammates.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

This thread is far too long to see if this has been mentioned before, but I think one of the penalties for dying (in a mission) is to re-awaken in a cell or some kind of reinforced room where you have to break your way out. In fact I believe this was done in COH (apologies if it has) and I thought this was one of the fun parts of being on a team and in a tough mission. While dying can be annoying, part of the fun is waking up and having to fight your way out, and there were some circumstances where if you were too weak to get yourself out of the space (healer, controller) there was always help from your teammates.

There were in fact a few missions in CoH where if you died you'd wake up in a "prison cell" of sorts. I always thought those were fun/interesting but I remember there were also quite a few people who used to bitch/complain about them for various reasons. I think people mostly complained that the cell doors you got trapped behind were relatively hard to break and if you didn't have a very high DPS output it could take a while to break out. The CoH Devs only did that in like 3 or 4 missions out of hundreds so it wasn't like it would happen all that often regardless.

I'm hoping CoT will have at least a few missions like that just to keep things fresh and different.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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There were two "room modules"

There were two "room modules" on various maps in City of Heroes where you could go to "prison" instead of to the Hospital. One was a tech prison in a Council/5th Column underground base. The other was a magic prison in a Circle of Thorns underground base. For people who didn't know about them, because the map hadn't been explored (or whatever) it came as a rude awakening to wind up inside one of these prisons instead of in the Hospital, and then needing to fight your way out of them.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

There were two "room modules" on various maps in City of Heroes where you could go to "prison" instead of to the Hospital. One was a tech prison in a Council/5th Column underground base. The other was a magic prison in a Circle of Thorns underground base. For people who didn't know about them, because the map hadn't been explored (or whatever) it came as a rude awakening to wind up inside one of these prisons instead of in the Hospital, and then needing to fight your way out of them.

Those two modular "prison rooms" (the Council one and the Circle of Thorns one) were recycled a couple of times in a few different missions/trials over the years in CoH. Weirdly enough sometimes the rooms would appear in missions even though they were not "active" as prison rooms - in those cases the cells simply had no doors. They really never bothered me too much (even when I was soloing with weaker DPS type characters) but I recall there were a lot of people who hated them or at the very least were upset whenever they had to do a mission with one of these active prison rooms.

Again I think the main gripe people had against them was that the cell doors had a huge number of HPs and it could take like 5+ minutes to break them down if you weren't running a DPS god. Maybe if CoT uses the idea again they will come up with a way where the doors are not quite so annoying for most people.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Wasn't a lot of that angst

Wasn't a lot of that angst about being relegated to a prison cell due to the original sidekicking (sk) mechanism. When you got imprisoned as a sk, you were invariably "imprisoned" with virtually no hope of release (due to fact that you were no longer in sk range and reverted back to actual level) unless your team came to your aide. The change in the sk mechanic seems to have eliminated such angst. Any whining thereafter is just simply - whining into the proverbial wind without any true justification.

I'm hoping that prison cells are implemented day one; it adds such an atmospheric dynamic to the experience. I am also hoping that it is used more expansively than CoX. I would like to see the concept expanded to include all groups that have the tech or magic to redirect the rez. Its not a cheap (in-game term) tech to implement for a group so I would anticipate such cells to only be present in major bases.

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Wasn't a lot of that angst

Wasn't a lot of that angst about being relegated to a prison cell due to the original sidekicking (sk) mechanism. When you got imprisoned as a sk, you were invariably "imprisoned" with virtually no hope of release (due to fact that you were no longer in sk range and reverted back to actual level) unless your team came to your aide. The change in the sk mechanic seems to have eliminated such angst. Any whining thereafter is just simply - whining into the proverbial wind without any true justification.

I'm hoping that prison cells are implemented day one; it adds such an atmospheric dynamic to the experience. I am also hoping that it is used more expansively than CoX. I would like to see the concept expanded to include all groups that have the tech or magic to redirect the rez. Its not a cheap (in-game term) tech to implement for a group so I would anticipate such cells to only be present in major bases.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
There were two "room modules" on various maps in City of Heroes where you could go to "prison" instead of to the Hospital. One was a tech prison in a Council/5th Column underground base. The other was a magic prison in a Circle of Thorns underground base. For people who didn't know about them, because the map hadn't been explored (or whatever) it came as a rude awakening to wind up inside one of these prisons instead of in the Hospital, and then needing to fight your way out of them.
Those two modular "prison rooms" (the Council one and the Circle of Thorns one) were recycled a couple of times in a few different missions/trials over the years in CoH. Weirdly enough sometimes the rooms would appear in missions even though they were not "active" as prison rooms - in those cases the cells simply had no doors. They really never bothered me too much (even when I was soloing with weaker DPS type characters) but I recall there were a lot of people who hated them or at the very least were upset whenever they had to do a mission with one of these active prison rooms.

I'm sure that there was an Arachnos version as well for prison room, though maybe it was only used in red-side missions.

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I think the prisons were

I think the prisons were definitely something that not everyone was a fan of but it was very much part of genre and ambiance of the comic book genre. Of course if you are solo then it takes a lot more time to break free and kill the guards. Perhaps there could be another way to get out of the prison cells. Instead of breaking down the doors there could be a way to pick the lock.

While I agree it sucked to be an SK and get stuck in the prisons. It was thematically accurate. Part of being a mentor was saving your sidekick from the evil villain who has captured them and taken them hostage.

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Even my Controllers didn't

Even my Controllers didn't languish too long in those prisons, though it did seem Odd than my Mind Controllers couldn't actually get the jailers to attack the door.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Hello I just wanted to put in

Hello I just wanted to put in my opinion.

I think Defeat and Death is important to any game and it should be both used in a sense to help a player grow themselves in a roleplay sense and for them to adapt and learn, there needs to be definite costs to death and incentives for players to group up, Though you don't want to completely block Lone Wolves from existing being a Lone Wolf should be dangerous and difficult.

I think Death should cause you to lose something or suffer "damage" now this could work quite well with the enhancement system, if they became damaged they would lose some effectiveness and need repair but repairing something could leave many options open such as half arsed quick repairs that aren't as good, repairing to where it was before and making it better, this then gives you the edge when you return to that fray.

I would suggest that rather than when you hit 0hp rather than death, you go down to a downed state from this state either you get dispatched by the enemy depending on if their are other threats to the enemy (other allied players or npc's to you to prevent you being put out of the fight) from this state you can be quickly recovered for example, if you are dispatched then your recovery is far more likely to have damage to yourself or your equipment, In addition having a downed state could be something interesting in terms of allowing either arresting or ending of something allowing players to play the way they want to.... for example the anti-hero type route etc.

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"down but not out yet" I like

"down but not out yet" I like.

"damage upon defeat" of items, like Augments and Refinements, is off the table, according to most devs statements on these forums. One reason for that is the fact that your toon is probably going to have upwards of 50+ actual items equipped in powers, and managing that becomes a mess. having like 10-20 items in different body slots in a DnD type game is fine, having like 80 is a different story.

At one point I put forth the idea that they could have items that wear out over time (that is, every time you activate the power the item is in, the item loses some of it's "fuel" and will eventually run out and have to be replaced, or you have to pay IGC to refuel it). Even that, as an IGC sink, was nixed on the basis that having to track SO many items would be a huge pain.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

"down but not out yet" I like.
"damage upon defeat" of items, like Augments and Refinements, is off the table, according to most devs statements on these forums. One reason for that is the fact that your toon is probably going to have upwards of 50+ actual items equipped in powers, and managing that becomes a mess. having like 10-20 items in different body slots in a DnD type game is fine, having like 80 is a different story.
At one point I put forth the idea that they could have items that wear out over time (that is, every time you activate the power the item is in, the item loses some of it's "fuel" and will eventually run out and have to be replaced, or you have to pay IGC to refuel it). Even that, as an IGC sink, was nixed on the basis that having to track SO many items would be a huge pain.

The down but not out mechanic is always something ive liked, if its a mechanic that you can deal heavily reduced damage from, it means the enemy has to decide do they dispatch you or not, can they get away with it cleanly. However it also can be used strategicly to draw your allies out of the fight to get you back up.

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One thing GW2 has that I

One thing GW2 has that I would want is that every player has the ability to revive everyone else. There are revive powers that make that process faster and so forth, but if you're down, or even "out" actually, someone else can wander by and revive you. It takes time, it can be interrupted, etc, so hard to do in a fight, but possible. I like that.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

One thing GW2 has that I would want is that every player has the ability to revive everyone else. There are revive powers that make that process faster and so forth, but if you're down, or even "out" actually, someone else can wander by and revive you. It takes time, it can be interrupted, etc, so hard to do in a fight, but possible. I like that.

Exactly, reviving someone without an ability should leave you vulnerable while doing it, to for example being crited. For example In my dream character I would want my character to be able to roll up and stim them to get them up as an ability.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think the prisons were definitely something that not everyone was a fan of but it was very much part of genre and ambiance of the comic book genre. Of course if you are solo then it takes a lot more time to break free and kill the guards. Perhaps there could be another way to get out of the prison cells. Instead of breaking down the doors there could be a way to pick the lock.
While I agree it sucked to be an SK and get stuck in the prisons. It was thematically accurate. Part of being a mentor was saving your sidekick from the evil villain who has captured them and taken them hostage.

I like the idea of picking the lock as an alternative to breaking out.
I once was able to target my teleport reticle through the tray hole in the door. Dunno if I had a glitchy door or if that was always an option. I can't remember if any allies still in the fight were able to use recall to free us.

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I'm 100% sure I can do

I'm 100% sure I can do without the jail rooms in the maps. Maybe as a TF thing or for higher difficulty TFs and trials, optionally, but not in run-of-the-mill missions from contacts, and not while difficulty is set to "easy" or even "normal".

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Did not read all the way

Did not read all the way through this but, I was a fan and played COH from issue 2 until the last second it closed. And liked the debt system, the awakies, rez powers, hospitals and all was part of the charm of the game. The only improvement would be to impose a stiffer penalty on multiple deaths within an allotted amount of time. As they die more than twice then obviously the mission is too much, this can be modified by the difficulty of said mission as well if right level to be doing it then the more deaths you could get away with without imposing a higher penalty and debt. This would keep people from trying to overstep the missions difficulty and would promote them to not try and bite off more than they could chew, while still letting them do it if they so choose and suffer the penalties for doing so if they die more than twice or so. The penalties could be removed by going to a hospital, thus having to run back and join the group (suffering a short travel power suppression of a sort), rez powers will not remove it, as well awakies (also might want to make it to were these only work in missions of a level or two above the appropriate level). Side kicking can prevent this but debt will still happen at double the normal rate, but no penalties. Let me define penalties: this is a drop rate for items, exp gain, and what else you include in the game, to prevent those with lower level characters to do higher level content. Again side kicking will prevent this from happening and promote teaming and cooperation to survive.

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I know the whole discussion

I know the whole discussion of death penalties has been gone over to death on these forums (pun intended), but I would like to add one thing about the "down but not out" mechanic that may have very real implications in this game.

We have three alignment axes:

  • Law
  • Honor
  • Violence

If you defeat enemies and leave them in the "down but not out" condition, you should have the option of

  1. giving them a killing blow
  2. interacting with them to subdue them
  3. ignoring them and moving on with your mission, assuming that the game will make NPCs who go down follow a script appropriate to their lore (do they get back up and fight like berzerkers, do they commit suicide like fanatics, do they run away like sane people, or do they run to get reinforcements?)
Each of these options will have a corresponding affect on your aligment, and maybe even affect your reputation with both the giver of the mission and the enemies themselves.

Edit: and getting to know which enemies will do what actions will be part of the feel of the world and the lore that I think would be nice. maybe some berzerker types would need to be beaten down multiple times before they stop getting up again... maybe the only way to stop fanatics from killing themselves would be to 'subdue' them first, etc. etc.

(COH)Blue Side_________Red Side
Little Panda....................Aissa
Thunderbird Priest.....Ash Khepri
Red Scirocco.............Bloody Mandragora
Dream Gypsy............Sinister Slate

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I was assuming the down but

I was assuming the down but not out thing would apply only to player characters. Frankly, I would not want NPC monsters or mobs to have it. That said, Huck's idea above would only apply to PvP in my vision of the game, and since I don't care about PvP qua PvP, you can run it any way you want and I won't really complain.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I think it would be safe to

I think it would be safe to say that NPCs would have a version of Down But Not Out that would not let them do crazy stuff. I would think it would be more like a simple timer that allowed the NPC to become active again after 30 seconds or something.

So if you were in a really tough battle with a dozen street toughs that lasted two minutes, I would expect some of the first ones you took out to get up and run away while the battle was still raging. How many were you supposed to arrest now? And maybe you might want to take out the lieutenant last because you were asked to bring in three lieutenants and you want to make sure you have the opportunity to capture (read: interact with to subdue) him.

On the other hand, I would expect a fight against a dozen crazed drug users who have no concept of fear to be different. The first ones down would get up again and go back to fighting against you, albeit with much fewer hit points the second time, and would keep getting up until they reach their threshold, at which point they either die, stay down in submission indefinitely, or run away like a normal mob. So it would be in your best interest here to try to 'subdue' them as they go down also, to prevent them from activating again.

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Little Panda....................Aissa
Thunderbird Priest.....Ash Khepri
Red Scirocco.............Bloody Mandragora
Dream Gypsy............Sinister Slate

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

giving them a killing blow
interacting with them to subdue them
ignoring them and moving on with your mission, assuming that the game will make NPCs who go down follow a script appropriate to their lore (do they get back up and fight like berzerkers, do they commit suicide like fanatics, do they run away like sane people, or do they run to get reinforcements?)

You can just leave them for the 'grey men' that follow after heroes, stripping corpses, dropping all of the loot in an Up-Ex box, and sending the remains to the Soylent Green factory.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I'm 100% sure I can do without the jail rooms in the maps. Maybe as a TF thing or for higher difficulty TFs and trials, optionally, but not in run-of-the-mill missions from contacts, and not while difficulty is set to "easy" or even "normal".

On the contrary I don't think there should be any limitation on having jail rooms in any mission. If it makes sense for a given narrative to have one it should exist. Besides everyone once in a while there should be "surprises" like that even in places you don't expect them to be - the game would get fairly boring otherwise. Things like jail rooms should never be restricted to just "top end" trials or high end difficulty settings.

Now by the same token I could accept that if you have your mission difficulty settings turned down to a super-easy setting that it should be comparatively easy to escape from such a jail room. Having your missions set down to super-easy levels shouldn't mean you get to avoid ALL the obstacles - it should just mean that the obstacles will be relatively easy to overcome.

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I guess what I'm assuming

I guess what I'm assuming here is that the run-of-the-mill missions from NPC contacts, or from tips, etc would not likely have unique map features of their own, like stuff specific to that one mission itself. So like, those maps are probably either selected from a large list of possible maps that get reused over and over for those types of missions, or they're procedurally generated from a set of map chunks. If either of those is the case, I would not bother to make a jail room for those type of maps to use as an asset, at least I wouldn't make such assets a priority. Like I said, if your TF or trial or whatever needs it for fluff reasons, or as part of the TF mechanics, then fine, but those maps may well be more "custom" in other ways too.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I guess what I'm assuming here is that the run-of-the-mill missions from NPC contacts, or from tips, etc would not likely have unique map features of their own, like stuff specific to that one mission itself. So like, those maps are probably either selected from a large list of possible maps that get reused over and over for those types of missions, or they're procedurally generated from a set of map chunks. If either of those is the case, I would not bother to make a jail room for those type of maps to use as an asset, at least I wouldn't make such assets a priority. Like I said, if your TF or trial or whatever needs it for fluff reasons, or as part of the TF mechanics, then fine, but those maps may well be more "custom" in other ways too.

I'd probably agree it would get a little annoying if like 50% of all mission maps had jail rooms. But as we talked about earlier CoH only hit us with those in a handful of missions out of hundreds - for the sake of discussion let's say it was like 0.5% of the time. All I'm suggesting is that if CoT used jail rooms or OTHER types of unique ideas like jail rooms say 5% of the time it probably wouldn't really be all that bad, especially if they came up with cool, interesting ideas for the OTHER types of unique rooms.

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One way or the other, they

One way or the other, they need to get as much use out of the assets they have as they can. If they are going to make a "jail room" for, say, a Rooks TF mission map, they may as well add it to the list of assets available for other Rooks missions, in the event that they need it for them. That then causes you to tell the mission designers "hey we have a jail room now" at which point they go and write a few jail room missions, just because they have it and they want to use it.

So what I'm saying is, I can do without the jail room itself as an asset for now, maybe add them in later if you want to. When you do have it, you're going to use it like everywhere probably, so if it has to get done in a TF or something as part of a story that requires a special room like that, then fine.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

One way or the other, they need to get as much use out of the assets they have as they can. If they are going to make a "jail room" for, say, a Rooks TF mission map, they may as well add it to the list of assets available for other Rooks missions, in the event that they need it for them. That then causes you to tell the mission designers "hey we have a jail room now" at which point they go and write a few jail room missions, just because they have it and they want to use it.
So what I'm saying is, I can do without the jail room itself as an asset for now, maybe add them in later if you want to. When you do have it, you're going to use it like everywhere probably, so if it has to get done in a TF or something as part of a story that requires a special room like that, then fine.

Sure if having a "jail room" or any other kind of special/unique mission rooms had to be saved for "after game launch" that'd be fine. I just don't think things like that (once they are available) should be ever limited to only being in game ending TFs or "super-special" situations.

Things like that should be "sprinkled" throughout the game so that random cakewalk missions might just become memorable for having an unexpected obstacle to keep you on your toes. Half of the drama of comic books comes from characters getting "trapped/tricked" into situations they weren't expecting. I'd want the potential to have a random jail room or a temporary "power debuff room" that makes you temporarily weak as a challenge to potentially spice up ANY mission, not just end-game ones.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Things like that should be "sprinkled" throughout the game so that random cakewalk missions might just become memorable for having an unexpected obstacle to keep you on your toes. Half of the drama of comic books comes from characters getting "trapped/tricked" into situations they weren't expecting. I'd want the potential to have a random jail room or a temporary "power debuff room" that makes you temporarily weak as a challenge to potentially spice up ANY mission, not just end-game ones.

This would be really nice to set up some sort of meta-story to introduce characters to some ultimate nemesis.

So, let's imagine the player gets defeated in some run-of-the-mill mission and rather than going to the hospital the character finds himself or herself in a 'prison' where we discover some lore about who captured you and why. This could be an overheard conversation, a laptop we can hack into, some papers lying around, etc.
Then make sure that this happens at least once every five levels until level 20. We might even get a visit from some senior henchman or executive for the nemesis, or maybe even from the nemesis itself while we are in prison. Something about how they just need to run a couple more tests, or maybe they are trying to avoid some prophesied event.

Then after level 20, you are able to piece together all the clues you've gathered in all these prison visits to kick off a new mission arc devoted to uncovering who this nemesis is and what its goals are. Finally, in some future update to the game, it would culminate in some sort of task force content.

(COH)Blue Side_________Red Side
Little Panda....................Aissa
Thunderbird Priest.....Ash Khepri
Red Scirocco.............Bloody Mandragora
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Things like that should be "sprinkled" throughout the game so that random cakewalk missions might just become memorable for having an unexpected obstacle to keep you on your toes. Half of the drama of comic books comes from characters getting "trapped/tricked" into situations they weren't expecting. I'd want the potential to have a random jail room or a temporary "power debuff room" that makes you temporarily weak as a challenge to potentially spice up ANY mission, not just end-game ones.
This would be really nice to set up some sort of meta-story to introduce characters to some ultimate nemesis.
So, let's imagine the player gets defeated in some run-of-the-mill mission and rather than going to the hospital the character finds himself or herself in a 'prison' where we discover some lore about who captured you and why. This could be an overheard conversation, a laptop we can hack into, some papers lying around, etc.
Then make sure that this happens at least once every five levels until level 20. We might even get a visit from some senior henchman or executive for the nemesis, or maybe even from the nemesis itself while we are in prison. Something about how they just need to run a couple more tests, or maybe they are trying to avoid some prophesied event.
Then after level 20, you are able to piece together all the clues you've gathered in all these prison visits to kick off a new mission arc devoted to uncovering who this nemesis is and what its goals are. Finally, in some future update to the game, it would culminate in some sort of task force content.

This is a good example of the OTHER things that could happen with having "special" rooms/things in random missions. They don't all have to be generic "jail rooms" with a simple door to be broken.

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On the subject of jail

On the subject of jail missions; please don't.
The idea is nifty but gimmicky and the implementation was terrible.

I liked them at first, and they were never difficult for my Regen scrapper, although my fully support-spec'd Empath took absolute ages to get out, and I mean ages. I had 1 (mandatory) attack that I set-slotted only.

Anyway, they got boring and annoying fairly quickly. This was the timeline for jails in my CoH play experience: In the beginning, everyone was keen to save the teammate, but finding the jail was sometimes painful, so everyone suicides and the big DPS break free quickly, then free everyone else and you continue the mission from the new 'checkpoint'. As time goes on you learn that this is a neat trick on some maps to accelerate your way through the mission, so you suicide right after you enter on those maps and save time. Other maps this doesn't work, and the CoT map tunnels could get people quite lost, so then it became: break yourself out, and then do one of the following:

  1. Tell us, so the one abberant player who actually has recall friend can retrieve you;
  2. Tell us so we can use a Temp Power to retrieve you;
  3. Port to pocket D or hospital or SG base so you can come back in via the main path we've already cleared;
  4. Just find your own way to us and try not to die again (almost a guarantee in some missions for some people);
  5. Wait in jail until we finish the mission so you can get out via the exit mission button.

    Much much later on you'd get laughed at if you tried to reset in a jail mission. You should've known better and waited for a team Res or Wakie, was the general consensus.

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Kaxiya wrote:
Kaxiya wrote:

How about instead of thinking of it as death we consider the idea of being defeated. In comics and other literature, heroes (or villains for that matter) seldom if ever actually die. They have setbacks, get defeated only to regroup and try again. Usually there is a form of recuperation that is used ( a long self induced sleep, a regeneration tank, bathing in a mystical pool for a while, maybe a magic crystal focuses healing energy on the person etc) My point is that instead of loosing anything be it influence, equipment, stats or whatever perhaps there can be something either public (like a hospital) or private (base or lair) that the characters can go to after being defeated that allows for them to recover before heading out once again into the thick of things.
or Perhaps after being defeated you operate at a diminished capacity and you can choose to either continue, digging deep into your reserves to overcome despite the thrashing you just took (maybe with bonus exp if you actually pull it off) or you retreat and seek to recover from the ordeal. There could even be stages of defeat: 1 defeat= 80% effectiveness, 2 defeats = 50%, 3 defeats = 30% ,4 defeats is KO etc. Each stage could give more exp should you actually be able to succeed but requires longer to fully recover from (maybe 5 min in recovery for 1 defeat level up to perhaps 30 min for a full on KO stage
(please note the above is my personal feelings on this and is in no way to be thought of as COT cannon)

I like the base concept of this. Defeated or K.O. isn't exactly death, but maybe there could be both conditions (?) You get KO'd and you rez via item or teammate, you come back with reduced HP and/or energy and incur a small hp/energy regen debuff for a short time (recovery time). Each time you KO before the recovery time elapses, you come back with less HP/Energy incur a bigger regen debuff, and recover takes longer. If you KO up to four consecutive times without completing recovery, you 'die' and a high-level healer archtype or the hospital are your only recovery options. Actual 'death' would be rare but more impactful than the occasional KO.

Hmmmmm?

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JulesB wrote:
JulesB wrote:

Kaxiya wrote:
How about instead of thinking of it as death we consider the idea of being defeated. In comics and other literature, heroes (or villains for that matter) seldom if ever actually die. They have setbacks, get defeated only to regroup and try again. Usually there is a form of recuperation that is used ( a long self induced sleep, a regeneration tank, bathing in a mystical pool for a while, maybe a magic crystal focuses healing energy on the person etc) My point is that instead of loosing anything be it influence, equipment, stats or whatever perhaps there can be something either public (like a hospital) or private (base or lair) that the characters can go to after being defeated that allows for them to recover before heading out once again into the thick of things.
or Perhaps after being defeated you operate at a diminished capacity and you can choose to either continue, digging deep into your reserves to overcome despite the thrashing you just took (maybe with bonus exp if you actually pull it off) or you retreat and seek to recover from the ordeal. There could even be stages of defeat: 1 defeat= 80% effectiveness, 2 defeats = 50%, 3 defeats = 30% ,4 defeats is KO etc. Each stage could give more exp should you actually be able to succeed but requires longer to fully recover from (maybe 5 min in recovery for 1 defeat level up to perhaps 30 min for a full on KO stage
(please note the above is my personal feelings on this and is in no way to be thought of as COT cannon)
I like the base concept of this. Defeated or K.O. isn't exactly death, but maybe there could be both conditions (?) You get KO'd and you rez via item or teammate, you come back with reduced HP and/or energy and incur a small hp/energy regen debuff for a short time (recovery time). Each time you KO before the recovery time elapses, you come back with less HP/Energy incur a bigger regen debuff, and recover takes longer. If you KO up to four consecutive times without completing recovery, you 'die' and a high-level healer archtype or the hospital are your only recovery options. Actual 'death' would be rare but more impactful than the occasional KO.
Hmmmmm?

The only downside here is that when you die, you are weaker, and therefore more likely to be defeated again during that cooling off period.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

JulesB wrote:
Kaxiya wrote:
How about instead of thinking of it as death we consider the idea of being defeated. In comics and other literature, heroes (or villains for that matter) seldom if ever actually die. They have setbacks, get defeated only to regroup and try again. Usually there is a form of recuperation that is used ( a long self induced sleep, a regeneration tank, bathing in a mystical pool for a while, maybe a magic crystal focuses healing energy on the person etc) My point is that instead of loosing anything be it influence, equipment, stats or whatever perhaps there can be something either public (like a hospital) or private (base or lair) that the characters can go to after being defeated that allows for them to recover before heading out once again into the thick of things.
or Perhaps after being defeated you operate at a diminished capacity and you can choose to either continue, digging deep into your reserves to overcome despite the thrashing you just took (maybe with bonus exp if you actually pull it off) or you retreat and seek to recover from the ordeal. There could even be stages of defeat: 1 defeat= 80% effectiveness, 2 defeats = 50%, 3 defeats = 30% ,4 defeats is KO etc. Each stage could give more exp should you actually be able to succeed but requires longer to fully recover from (maybe 5 min in recovery for 1 defeat level up to perhaps 30 min for a full on KO stage
(please note the above is my personal feelings on this and is in no way to be thought of as COT cannon)
I like the base concept of this. Defeated or K.O. isn't exactly death, but maybe there could be both conditions (?) You get KO'd and you rez via item or teammate, you come back with reduced HP and/or energy and incur a small hp/energy regen debuff for a short time (recovery time). Each time you KO before the recovery time elapses, you come back with less HP/Energy incur a bigger regen debuff, and recover takes longer. If you KO up to four consecutive times without completing recovery, you 'die' and a high-level healer archtype or the hospital are your only recovery options. Actual 'death' would be rare but more impactful than the occasional KO.
Hmmmmm?
The only downside here is that when you die, you are weaker, and therefore more likely to be defeated again during that cooling off period.

But only if you are solo and actually get into combat at that time. Depending on the NPC AI and your position they may walk out of aggro range so you can rezz safely.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
JulesB wrote:
Kaxiya wrote:
How about instead of thinking of it as death we consider the idea of being defeated. In comics and other literature, heroes (or villains for that matter) seldom if ever actually die. They have setbacks, get defeated only to regroup and try again. Usually there is a form of recuperation that is used ( a long self induced sleep, a regeneration tank, bathing in a mystical pool for a while, maybe a magic crystal focuses healing energy on the person etc) My point is that instead of loosing anything be it influence, equipment, stats or whatever perhaps there can be something either public (like a hospital) or private (base or lair) that the characters can go to after being defeated that allows for them to recover before heading out once again into the thick of things.
or Perhaps after being defeated you operate at a diminished capacity and you can choose to either continue, digging deep into your reserves to overcome despite the thrashing you just took (maybe with bonus exp if you actually pull it off) or you retreat and seek to recover from the ordeal. There could even be stages of defeat: 1 defeat= 80% effectiveness, 2 defeats = 50%, 3 defeats = 30% ,4 defeats is KO etc. Each stage could give more exp should you actually be able to succeed but requires longer to fully recover from (maybe 5 min in recovery for 1 defeat level up to perhaps 30 min for a full on KO stage
(please note the above is my personal feelings on this and is in no way to be thought of as COT cannon)
I like the base concept of this. Defeated or K.O. isn't exactly death, but maybe there could be both conditions (?) You get KO'd and you rez via item or teammate, you come back with reduced HP and/or energy and incur a small hp/energy regen debuff for a short time (recovery time). Each time you KO before the recovery time elapses, you come back with less HP/Energy incur a bigger regen debuff, and recover takes longer. If you KO up to four consecutive times without completing recovery, you 'die' and a high-level healer archtype or the hospital are your only recovery options. Actual 'death' would be rare but more impactful than the occasional KO.
Hmmmmm?
The only downside here is that when you die, you are weaker, and therefore more likely to be defeated again during that cooling off period.
But only if you are solo and actually get into combat at that time. Depending on the NPC AI and your position they may walk out of aggro range so you can rezz safely.

Right, and I think the idea was that there's added risk to jumping right back into the fray versus taking a few seconds to recoup. In a group scenario the aggro would be on someone else or you would wait to rez until the meanie that killed you was preoccupied elsewhere. For a death penalty, I think I like this better than having random stuff break. The CoX model of XP debt was also a cool way to do it.

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Many teams without someone

Many teams without someone having a rez ability would say that waiting for the person to return to the mission was punishment enough.....

(insert pithy comment here)

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Dark Ether wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

Many teams without someone having a rez ability would say that waiting for the person to return to the mission was punishment enough.....

Ah yes, especially early on, good healers were invaluable! My radiation emission defender in CoX NEVER had problems finding a team.

"Sewer trial LFM (6/8) - Need tanks!"

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I think I mentioned this

I think I mentioned this earlier, but since nobody ever reads posts from like 2 years ago, and since this thread has apparently been brought back to unlife, I'm going to chime in again.

Several thoughts:

1. In GW2, which I play now, there are waypoints like everywhere and when you get defeated for good, you have to respawn at one of them. In dungeons and fractals (like TFs and trials) you cant do this unless the whole team is defeated, so you just lay there saying "go team!". ALL players have thew ability to revive other players. It's not a special power that only SOME archetypes have, everyone can do it. It takes time and is interruptible and you can't attack while reviving someone. There are still some powers that can revive players faster or without having to wait, but they tend to be long-recharge timer powers. Also, getting defeated and using a waypoint to return assumes you have a relatively convenient waypoint unlocked already, which causes people to want to explore the whole map so as to be able to do that. I consider that a positive thing for the game. G2 also has gear damage that you sustain when defeated. It's so ignorably small of a thing that I generally ignore it. It's a TINY gold sink and a minor delay to fix your armor at a nearby anvil, which are usually not too far away. GW2 also has a "down but not out yet" system which I like.

2. While its true that nobody enjoys getting defeated, I get defeated a LOT with my squishy Elementalist in GW2 and it doesn't bother me AT ALL, to the point of other people being like "stop making the rest of us have to revive you all the time" when I do dungeons. I think it would be good if we could make getting defeated some kind of inconvenience or annoyance to the player that gets defeated over and above the inherent "agony of defeat" for that reason. I wouldn't want it to be a thing the effects the players combat effectiveness per se, because that leads to cascade breakdown whereby you'll never finish a mission if you get killed once near the end, because you wont be able to defeat the boss. I also don't like the idea of making it MORE of a drag on the party when I get killed due to my own bad play choices.

3. I like the debt idea that CoX had but would do it with IGC instead of XP. When you die, you go into debt such that a percentage of oyur incoming IGC gained get's garnished by the game until you've paid it off.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

3. I like the debt idea that CoX had but would do it with IGC instead of XP. When you die, you go into debt such that a percentage of oyur incoming IGC gained get's garnished by the game until you've paid it off.

I prefer XP debt, myself.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think I mentioned this earlier, but since nobody ever reads posts from like 2 years ago, and since this thread has apparently been brought back to unlife, I'm going to chime in again.

It wasn't even two years ago when we last had this discussion. It was this past September when Doctor Tyche started this thread.

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Little Panda....................Aissa
Thunderbird Priest.....Ash Khepri
Red Scirocco.............Bloody Mandragora
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Radiac wrote:
I think I mentioned this earlier, but since nobody ever reads posts from like 2 years ago, and since this thread has apparently been brought back to unlife, I'm going to chime in again.

It wasn't even two years ago when we last had this discussion. It was this past September when Doctor Tyche started this thread.

Ironically, I never scrolled up to read those old posts to find that out, thus proving the spirit of my original claim, if not the specifics.:)

As far as XP debt goes, how do you do that to people who are already level capped? I assume it get's converted to IGC debt then? If so, I'm fine with that, but I think the IGC debt is more of a drag and people will avoid it more even if you do it from the get-go.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
Radiac wrote:
I think I mentioned this earlier, but since nobody ever reads posts from like 2 years ago, and since this thread has apparently been brought back to unlife, I'm going to chime in again.
It wasn't even two years ago when we last had this discussion. It was this past September when Doctor Tyche started this thread.
Ironically, I never scrolled up to read those old posts to find that out, thus proving the spirit of my original claim, if not the specifics.:)
As far as XP debt goes, how do you do that to people who are already level capped? I assume it get's converted to IGC debt then? If so, I'm fine with that, but I think the IGC debt is more of a drag and people will avoid it more even if you do it from the get-go.

If some of the ideas being discussed here
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/alternative-epic-power-pools
get implemented, then we might continue to gain XP after level cap for some horizontal leveling which would make XP debt (assuming we have it in the first place) continue to be relevant.

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If we want players to fear

If we want players to fear death. Some players have made cases for a painless death and instant resurrection. (I use the term death here in the spirit of this discussion, it is interchangeable with knockout or incapacitation or other terms for what occurs when the player character's health is reduced to zero.)

If we want players to fear death, then we need to make the players fear death. We can't hook up players to a virtual reality rig that gives them the pain their characters would feel. So we need to make the players feel another sort of pain, one that instills fear of their character dying on behalf of their character.

I first thought there were only two ways to inflict pain upon the player, but discussions in other threads uncovered a third way.

The three means to inflict fear in a player are to cost the player his or her
time
money
, or
pride

Time is the penalty most of us are familiar with: Corpse runs, XP debt, Performance reduction, Relocation to a hospital or respawn point, etc.

The obvious money penalty would be to pay real world money to resurrect, which would be ludicrous. But we have seen cash shop items that can be used to eliminate or reduce the time penalties associated with death (see above)

There is a fine line between hurting a player's pride and demeaning the player. While having NPC's remember that you got defeated and give you encouragement to do better would be on the more acceptable end of that spectrum; placing a memorial on the spot, notifying everyone playing with a banner that you died, and causing all the NPC's to point and laugh at you would be somewhere on the other end of that spectrum. Also, different players have different threshholds of pain when it comes to pride. Some players will swallow their pride easily to take advantage of death if doing so gives them an advantage. While others have a strong sense of personal pride and don't ever want to be defeated for any reason.

For these reasons, I would not want to use money or pride as the primary means of punishing players. I think there is room for adding cash shop options and for including some pride-affecting events such as NPC's commenting on your most recent defeat and offering encouragement.

Thus we come down to time. How do we want to penalize a player's time? In my opinion, we should do so in such a way that the time lost is spent enjoying the game, not waiting with nothing to do. This is why I do not like respawn timers. But I do like things like XP debt, because players play the game the entire time they are working off their debt. That's a win to me. But XP debt completely loses its effectiveness once you reach experience cap, so that's out. (unless we change it to something else once you reach cap)

I personally would like the idea of a mini-game appropriate to recovering from a beatdown. Other players can help you in the minigame to help you rez faster, with healers being able to help most of all. I've already put this idea forth in another thread, so I won't go into it in any more detail here. What other ideas would people have to make good use of a player's time?

(COH)Blue Side_________Red Side
Little Panda....................Aissa
Thunderbird Priest.....Ash Khepri
Red Scirocco.............Bloody Mandragora
Dream Gypsy............Sinister Slate

Dark Ether
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Fear leads to the dark side.

Fear leads to the dark side.

(insert pithy comment here)

harpospoke
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I don't see the problem in

I don't see the problem in the way CoH handled it. That was my favorite game after all. I tried one other game since shutdown (D&D Online). Kinda enjoyed it for a while. But then I reached a point where I was getting defeated over and over on this one mission. After running back from the rez point for the 5th time I just logged out in disgust. Never signed on again. That was several years ago.

It was a feeling I never got from CoH in defeat so anything that gets too far from the CoH way will make me nervous.

Lin Chiao Feng
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The Dark Side leads to Pink

The Dark Side leads to Pink Floyd.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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