Limited Penalty for Death

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islandtrevor72
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Im ok with it.... but then

Im ok with it.... but then pretty much any moderate defeat penalty is acceptable to me as long as it does not FORCE me to have a time out or affects the way I have built my character is ok with me.

Pengy
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Two great tastes that go great together ...
Let's take the Pay Currency idea and the Hospital Timer idea and put them together.
The instant that you're defeated, you have to pay the full cost in Currency.
If you wait out the timer on the Hospital Countdown, the service is "free" because you've already paid in "time wasted" rather than in "currency wasted" for improved service.
Players at the Level Cap have the currency/timer costs of a Hospital trip increased (I like simply "doubled").
Net effects:
If you can pay, there's no wait time.
If you can't pay, you have to wait.
And as the countdown timer ticks away, the currency cost of a Hospital trip decreases linearly, so you get a rolling number representing the currency cost for the service from moment to moment. Players get to pick for themselves which is less painful for them to lose ... currency resources or time resources. That way you don't have a One Size Fits All solution, but rather a sliding scale to accommodate differing circumstances and wealth levels.
Note that any currency paid for this service would be removed from the in-game economy, which would help fight ... but not on its own solve ... the threat of hyperinflation of in-game currency.

That somehow doesn't annoy me.

Radiac
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Flavor-wise, the idea that

Flavor-wise, the idea that the Hospital has to charge you something for the service of TPing and reviving you makes a lot of sense to me, actually. But then I Iive in the U.S., where medical attention costs money, so I'm used to that ;)

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Gangrel
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Wakies do carry the cost, so to speak, of using a boost slot. If someone carries half a dozen wakies, just in case, that's half dozen other boosts that may have prevented the death in the first place.
One possibility to consider is a kind of insurance (although I'd hate to use that particular term). Health care membership? Yeah... anyway. For a monthly payment the character obtains that particular level of service. With no payment the character may be hit with that 15 second delay in service (another benefit of premium membership: no queues!*), pay the largest cost for the hospital visit, etc., etc. At the lowest level there may be no queue (or guarantee that the queue won't become longer), the next reduces the cost of the visit, etc. The highest level may even include an insta-rez on, say, a 30 minute or 1 hour cooldown.
However the details pan out, it remains a resource sink and the player can basically choose the severity of the death penalty.
* Hold on a doggone minute. That sounds awfully familiar!

Yep, Eve Online actually uses this.. both for their ships and also for the characters (your clone in Eve Online can only hold so many skill points, so if you are above the limit for your toon, and that toon get *killed* (not just losing the ship, but podded afterwards), you would lose an amount of skill points that you were "over".

The ship insurance was an on going cost to help minimize (to an extent) the hit of losing a ship. Not the modules fitted nor cargo carried. If you fitted a ship out with normal mods, you would make a *loss* but not a significant one. If you had fitted it out with the top of the line mods or you were flying a "Tech 2" version of the ship (variant ships that were more specialised/better than the base version) you would only get back the cost of the *base* hull that the insurance contract would reward you with.

And seeing as you could lose ships to NPC's and *very very extremely rarely* get "podded" by an NPC... it worked.

If you engaged in PvP then you had your risks... but the rewards could be vastly larger.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Gangrel
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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
So just have it as a standard cost to resurrect at the hospital then that is dependant on the type of enhancements you have slotted.
My issue isn't that I'm afraid of a defeat penalty, it's that shoehorning enhancements into the "physical gear" model is repulsive. Pretending it's only "kinda sorta" gear degradation and look at the birdie! just adds insult to injury.

The reason as to why I was thinking of altering the cost dependent on what the player had equipped combined with their level and NOT giving them any form of "item degradation" in the slightest was because people were against "repair costs". So this isn't "Item degradation" in the normal sense. It only uses what you have a factor for the penalty that you would incur. Hell, you could even take a leaf out of the CoX model and have bonuses that could *reduce* the penalty cost on top of the route that you took to "get back into the fight".

Now City of Heroes had something similar... the cost for your defeat in terms of *XP* cost was higher the higher levelled you were. Hell, there were IO set bonuses that *reduced* this cost as well... so they proved more of a benefit the high level characters compared to the low level characters. (Paragon/Cryptic also reduced the amount of debt that each death would give you depending if it was *inside* a mission, or outside in the world... for some strange reason it was better to die inside a building/cave system/alternate dimension rather than anywhere else... but that is taking it to a whole other meta level)

For your second part, that can work as well... especially if your reputation with a faction (or influence... I assume here that you are talking about a currency here... possibly) had extra benefits/costs linked to it (ie NPC vendor costs were reduced the more standing you had with that faction etc...)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

islandtrevor72
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Quote:
Quote:

The reason as to why I was thinking of altering the cost dependent on what the player had equipped combined with their level and NOT giving them any form of "item degradation" in the slightest was because people were against "repair costs". So this isn't "Item degradation" in the normal sense.

How would you handle a character who has expensive enhancements but no money?

Radiac
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I think in all cases you have

I think in all cases you have to implement it as influence debt like CoX did. Instead of taking away actual funds people actually have on them at the time, you're getting your money in the form of a taxes on future income, just letting people pay over time by taxing their income as they get it. I guess the Republicans here in the U.S. would vote against this, since it's a "death tax".

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Redlynne
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

How would you handle a character who has expensive enhancements but no money?

That was always the rub. There could be circumstances in which a character has no currency to pay for a resurrection with and they could then get "orphaned" into a Do No Back Up Severe Tire Damage situation from which there was no recovery without outside help (which could potentially never arrive). It's one of those things that potentially could render a character unplayable and possibly induce a player to ragequit.

That's why City of Heroes "taxed" a resource that every character had in abundance and would never run out of ... Incoming Experience. It was literally done as a "debt" to be paid off over time. That way, there was never a problem of whether or not the character "could pay" the debt and the only variable became how long it would take to become Debt Free.

Radiac wrote:

I guess the Republicans here in the U.S. would vote against this, since it's a "death tax".

{unhappy ESL manager losing patience voice}

You!
You die NOW!
No Waitinguu!

{/voice}


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islandtrevor72
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Quote:
Quote:

I think in all cases you have to implement it as influence debt like CoX did. Instead of taking away actual funds people actually have on them at the time, you're getting your money in the form of a taxes on future income, just letting people pay over time by taxing their income as they get it. I guess the Republicans here in the U.S. would vote against this, since it's a "death tax"..

The only issue I can see with this (and then its a hypothetical issue as well so take with a grain of salt) is if it included a 'gear rating' system. Anyone who has played Neverwinter will know why that may not be the best system to use. But as I said...its a hypothetical concern. Overall I don't see this as any better or worse than my own suggestion so either will be fine IMO..

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I'll quote something I read

I'll quote something I read recently on another message board that pertains somewhat to the current discussion;

"Put simply, City of Heroes allowed players to have so much more power compared to most MMOs that players could afford to do weird things that were just fun, without having to worry about being killed by the game if they did not play absolutely perfectly. A bad day in City of Heroes was often better than a good day in other MMOs that emphasized much more difficult combat with much more restrictions on the abilities of the players." - Arcana

The way CoH handled the "death penalty" was one of the many things that it got RIGHT. Little bit of xp debt, little bit of travel time if you have to "HOSP" it (no rez powers or inspirations). Minimal penalty and you're back in the action.

I also agree that a limited death penalty also contributed to the community and the fun of the game - it led to many "hold my beer and watch THIS" types of situations. TONS of stories like that.

I am highly skeptical that a harsher death penalty would improve the gameplay experience - very often those looking for a harsher penalty are the same as those who criticize others for "playing the game wrong!" or stress certain uber-builds to the exclusion of others. That said, I also think there should be some kind of penalty for defeat, even if it is only minor. Thus, like I said previously, I think CoH nailed it and that the devs of CoT should stay within those lines to maintain the "feel" of the previous game.

Gangrel
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
How would you handle a character who has expensive enhancements but no money?
That was always the rub. There could be circumstances in which a character has no currency to pay for a resurrection with and they could then get "orphaned" into a Do No Back Up Severe Tire Damage situation from which there was no recovery without outside help (which could potentially never arrive). It's one of those things that potentially could render a character unplayable and possibly induce a player to ragequit.
That's why City of Heroes "taxed" a resource that every character had in abundance and would never run out of ... Incoming Experience. It was literally done as a "debt" to be paid off over time. That way, there was never a problem of whether or not the character "could pay" the debt and the only variable became how long it would take to become Debt Free.
Radiac wrote:
I guess the Republicans here in the U.S. would vote against this, since it's a "death tax".
{unhappy ESL manager losing patience voice}
You!
You die NOW!
No Waitinguu!
{/voice}

So could you scale the cost according to the enhancements that they had slotted as well? I know that CoX had debt reduction set bonuses in some of the IO's... so you could use stuff like that as a balancing point as well (ie it isn't a *direct* loss of XP/Cash, just a reduced earning power.

So once again, using the gear that you have slotted as a cost factor into how long you could be "penalised" for. For the character that doesn't die, or dies rarely... it wont hurt. For those who do die constantly, they are still earning, just at a reduced rate.

But this is something that *needs* to affect all players.

The XP Debt is something that I actually *disliked* in the original CoX... until they reduced its penalty. Sure, I never lost levels, but because I started (and hit cap) before it first got readjusted... it was annoying to be left "contentless" due to the fact that you died too much.

That is one of the things that can happen, especially if you had the setup that CoX *originally* had where content was level locked, and not only that... you out levelled contacts so that they wouldn't talk to you.

Sure, later on they patched this up with tip/paper/alignment missions, but it took the developers time to do this.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Gangrel
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

I'll quote something I read recently on another message board that pertains somewhat to the current discussion;
"Put simply, City of Heroes allowed players to have so much more power compared to most MMOs that players could afford to do weird things that were just fun, without having to worry about being killed by the game if they did not play absolutely perfectly. A bad day in City of Heroes was often better than a good day in other MMOs that emphasized much more difficult combat with much more restrictions on the abilities of the players." - Arcana
The way CoH handled the "death penalty" was one of the many things that it got RIGHT. Little bit of xp debt, little bit of travel time if you have to "HOSP" it (no rez powers or inspirations). Minimal penalty and you're back in the action.
I also agree that a limited death penalty also contributed to the community and the fun of the game - it led to many "hold my beer and watch THIS" types of situations. TONS of stories like that.
I am highly skeptical that a harsher death penalty would improve the gameplay experience - very often those looking for a harsher penalty are the same as those who criticize others for "playing the game wrong!" or stress certain uber-builds to the exclusion of others. That said, I also think there should be some kind of penalty for defeat, even if it is only minor. Thus, like I said previously, I think CoH nailed it and that the devs of CoT should stay within those lines to maintain the "feel" of the previous game.

The thing is, I find people still doing dumb stuff in other MMO's. It wasn't something that was *limited* to City of Heroes.

Leeroy Jenkins anyone? Sure, that could also be a form of griefing, but at least from MY experience on EU PvE servers, I have experienced less griefing on them compared to what people say happens on US PvE servers. Maybe this is a cultural difference as well?

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Darth Fez
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I guess therein lies the

I guess therein lies the disconnect.

I read Interdictor's post and see him imparting that people did fun and crazy stuff for the heck of it, because they could and because they knew they wouldn't be saddled by large repair costs or other inconveniences (in German we'd call those "spassbremsen").

You read his posts and take away that he's talking about "doing dumb stuff".

The two aren't mutually exclusive by any means, but there is a world of difference between "hold my beer and watch this", where 'this' is something crazy/fun/stupid, and griefing.

The death penalty is meant to be a slap on the wrist, not a yard stick for "wrong fun".

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Radiac
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I feel the reason the game

I feel the reason the game needs a penalty of some kind for defeat is to give players a reason to avoid defeat. In real life, we all try to avoid pain and mortal danger, our toons should behave similarly, I feel, or else the game is just dumb. I mean, this is one of the things that separates a game with a sense of some realism from whacky slapstick Bugs Bunny cartoons where getting shot point blank in the face just means you end up embarassed with a face full of soot, then you're ok again after the next jump cut.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think in all cases you have to implement it as influence debt like CoX did. Instead of taking away actual funds people actually have on them at the time, you're getting your money in the form of a taxes on future income, just letting people pay over time by taxing their income as they get it. I guess the Republicans here in the U.S. would vote against this, since it's a "death tax".

I've been mulling over this same principle. It might possibly help to curb inflation and reduce the dissonance that players might otherwise feel if their existing funds or enhancements were affected. I was also thinking of tying it to a "bonus" system where you earn better rewards for playing better and defeats will set you back in how much currency you can rake in over time.

I was thinking about how the Super Smash Bros. games used to implement bonuses at the end of each match based on how you played. You received points for dealing more damage, scoring more KO's, and certain other feats such as avoiding environmental hazards or using certain tactics. Consider having such a system in CoT where the bonus points would translate into currency.

For instance, completing a mission without being defeated would net you some bonus currency. Perhaps grant the whole team an additional bonus if no one suffers defeat during a mission. Bonus rewards could even exist for things like staying above 75% health, completing a mission quickly, defeating an archvillain-rank enemy quickly, or any number of creative quantitative measures.

To implement it as a sort of "currency debt," consider having each player earn a multiplier on currency earned from defeating enemies after defeating X number of enemies. The multiplier would stack up a limited number of times. If you play steadily without defeat, you earn the best multiplier and gain maximum rewards. If you suffer defeat, you lose your multipliers and earn currency more slowly until you work your way back up.

This would give players positive reinforcement for playing well and give combat a sort of "arcade-style" feel. Of course, there are likely players who would object to certain bonuses for certain feats if all players weren't equally capable of achieving those bonuses or if the bonuses as a whole encouraged certain playstyles over others. I don't know where the happy medium would lie. It might also invite the possibility for excessive min-maxing. Still, I think it's an interesting approach to the problem.

Gangrel
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I guess therein lies the disconnect.
I read Interdictor's post and see him imparting that people did fun and crazy stuff for the heck of it, because they could and because they knew they wouldn't be saddled by large repair costs or other inconveniences (in German we'd call those "spassbremsen").
You read his posts and take away that he's talking about "doing dumb stuff".
The two aren't mutually exclusive by any means, but there is a world of difference between "hold my beer and watch this", where 'this' is something crazy/fun/stupid, and griefing.
The death penalty is meant to be a slap on the wrist, not a yard stick for "wrong fun".

But then again, until debt got lessened to such an extent that is was effectively "useless", I never really saw much of this happening. It was only after people got to the level cap where dying had no real effect on how much/fast you earnt.

Of if you did, then you had enough of a support network around you.

I know that for *ME* at least, early on in the EU games launch, the people I knew tended not to do the "watch this" stuff unless they knew it wasn't going to affect their team mates. Later on, sure it happened... but I never had the lack (or presence) of a death penalty for doing stuff like that.

Because I have never actually *had* to be worried about "not being able to buy the next X". Although I did have that problem in City of Heroes... which is really strange. I had it on my first character, and first character only. Once I got past that problem, money wasn't really a problem for normal levelling up. I had my "sugar daddy" always around to help out alts.

And yes, I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick, but I *honestly* don't think that the repair costs prevented that from happening in other games.

I genuinely think that it was just the general crowd and play style of the people and who you associated with.

Because I personally *never* knew of someone in CoX doing something like that (Here, watch *this*...). Seen it happen in other MMO's (Eve Online believe it or not... taking on missions that your ship is NOT designed to do, and winning), World of Warcraft (taking on the group mobs solo and getting away without a scratch) and Wildstar (Jumping down from the top of maps and landing without taking damage/similar stuff to WoW as well).

But then again, as I say, I think it is just more of who you hang around with and what they do.

If anything, CoX also had more of a farming mentality (at least from the players I knew) where they "abused" the AE for tickets to get X to make Y, and doing it on maps that would give them the most tickets for the least amount of pain...

But that again is just from what I saw.

But I also knew of people who were *seriously* worried of dying in CoX early on, purely because of the risk of being left "contentless". That is never really a serious risk in other MMO's (unless they have level locked content, and XP debt/loss), because even with *poor* gear, you could always resort to going back down to the lower levels and killing those mobs for small drops.

You could always start from scratch as it were... so even if you were "too broke to repair" items, you could work your way back up to where you were, repairing your items slowly... At least in other games, they had "they are all grey to me" problem, because those games gave drops from mobs even if you *vastly* outclassed them. Unlike City of Heroes.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I'm with the obvious majority

I'm with the obvious majority who don't care for overly punitive death penalties. It's a game. It's meant to be fun.

From a psychological point of view, Champions Online actually does this much better with a bit of minor trickery. It doesn't punish death. It rewards not dieing.

You could be forgiven for thinking that's a trivial distinction but in terms of the effect it has on players and their likelihood to enjoy and keep playing a game (vital if you want their money) it's very clever. I'm amazed more games don't do it.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

I'd like to start by saying that I haven't completely read all of this thread. With that being said, I'd also like to point out a play style from the Repeat Offenders Network. It's called the Faithful Fans of Fallout. In which one person was designated as the bomb. Basically they'd run into a mob with all toggles turned off and just die. After that their carcass was hauled around by the means of Recall Friend and proceeded to be blown up with Vengeance and Fallout in the middle of a giant mob of bad guys. Fun stuff! You wouldn't believe how many people were dying to become the bomb. See what I did there? LOL.

One of the earliest cases of PLing that I ever saw was called Corpse Dragging. The weakest/lowest level toon died instantly and was Recalled along with the team as they alternated casting Vengeance to buff themselves. This became less effective when leveling suddenly dropped one of each Insp on you including a wakie but it still happened.

I'm opposed to the idea of a death tax on the character unless they return to the hospital. If I have a rez power, a teammate with a rez power or a one-shot thing to wake me up why should I be charged? However the fee for being teleported, awakened, fixed up and sent back into the fray? Yeah 10% sounds about right. Might discourage reckless players on that TF who don't seem to mind dying 20 times before they listen to the team's advice. There is also a basement on the system. If you're broke and die you're not out anything. Players who play well and carry a wakie are not penalized. New characters (who have little cash) aren't charged an unfair flat rate.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Gangrel
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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

I'm opposed to the idea of a death tax on the character unless they return to the hospital. If I have a rez power, a teammate with a rez power or a one-shot thing to wake me up why should I be charged? However the fee for being teleported, awakened, fixed up and sent back into the fray? Yeah 10% sounds about right. Might discourage reckless players on that TF who don't seem to mind dying 20 times before they listen to the team's advice. There is also a basement on the system. If you're broke and die you're not out anything. Players who play well and carry a wakie are not penalized. New characters (who have little cash) aren't charged an unfair flat rate.

If you are referring to my suggestion on this one, you got it all back to front. Going to Hospital was the *most* expensive option, whilst the others have less of a penalty with player/self rezzes being the "cheapest" option in terms of penalty (typically because they are on a timer instead of an instant "press the button to go back home").

But yes, your suggestion works as well, as a nice improvement. It also means that carrying around vast amount of "cash" is not a good move. Which can be a problem. Because unlike Eve Online, you are more than likely not going to be able to tie up your funds in assets. Which means that saving up for something big is NOT recommended. This can end up with the situation of (for example) saving up for a LOTG +7.5 recharge, and dying just before you bought it, and loosing several days progress towards getting it.

However, if you set it as a *set* fee (according to level), you can tweak the value more easily. You can base it on "how much a player can typically earn a day". Is this method perfect? No, but at least it avoids the problem of penalising those who are genuinely saving up for something.

So it is a catch 22 situation.

"Gear related" costs (either using it as a scaling factor but no actual *performance* related cost) is used in other games, is because no matter what... mobs will drop stuff for you to sell. It might not be for a lot... but you can always "start up from the bottom".

In City of Heroes... this was not the case... "They are all grey to me" affected more than just XP. It also affected the salvage drops; so as a result people ran AE to fill the gaps that the lower level players could not fill.

And even then, the AE drops were not always enough. Because people seemed to always be complaining about the cost/rarity of alchemical silver.

The fact that other games do NOT have the "All grey to me" problem, is why I am not always phased by the "repair costs" that they have. Then again in those game you don't have the problem of outlevelling your enhancements so that you are forced to buy new ones, with the additional penalty in that if you didn't upgrade them, you got NO benefit from it (it was effectively an empty slot)..

In other games because your gear gave bonuses even if you DID outlevel it explains why most other games tend to focus on that side of the coin as a balance point.

If anything, I think we have just shown how interlinked a lot of systems actually are.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Radiac
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However you want to implement

However you want to implement it (I haven't played CO or DCUO), I am in favor of anything that makes people really want to avoid getting defeated, to the point of not wanting to die on purpose to save influence on needed enhancements when you level up, not wanting to die on purpose to quickly get from the Hollows to Atlas Park, or to get out of the Perez Park tree maze, etc. Whether or not you feel that remote, hard to navigate areas are worthwhile in and of themselves, I think the defeat penalty is too low if people are willing to gladly face-plant to get out of the maze or whatever.

That established, I don't think a defeat penalty should be meant primarily as a way to sink money out of the economy. For one thing, if the penalty is doing its job and making people by and large avoid defeat under most circumstances, then there won't be much money sunk by this. If it IS sinking a lot of money out of the game economy as a whole, that's probably because the people are still getting defeated a lot, which means it's probably not enough of a penalty to cause people to avoid defeat, which is what it's really meant to do, in my opinion.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

However you want to implement it (I haven't played CO or DCUO), I am in favor of anything that makes people really want to avoid getting defeated, to the point of not wanting to die on purpose to save influence on needed enhancements when you level up, not wanting to die on purpose to quickly get from the Hollows to Atlas Park, or to get out of the Perez Park tree maze, etc. Whether or not you feel that remote, hard to navigate areas are worthwhile in and of themselves, I think the defeat penalty is too low if people are willing to gladly face-plant to get out of the maze or whatever.
That established, I don't think a defeat penalty should be meant primarily as a way to sink money out of the economy. For one thing, if the penalty is doing its job and making people by and large avoid defeat under most circumstances, then there won't be much money sunk by this. If it IS sinking a lot of money out of the game economy as a whole, that's probably because the people are still getting defeated a lot, which means it's probably not enough of a penalty to cause people to avoid defeat, which is what it's really meant to do, in my opinion.

Oh agreed in that "death penalties" should NOT be the only way to sink money out of the game... but it does make it a *useful* one to remove funds. But it is a balancing act as well. If people are dying too much through no fault of their own ie in combat; then it could show that your combat systems are too hard, and you need to balance THAT side of the equation, instead of just reducing the "cash sink" side of the game. So just by looking at it from *one* point of view is not recommened, because it does affect a wide range of systems.

And yes, I do agree with you in that death should not be "abusable" in terms of getting from A to B. That is not to say that it *cannot* be done, I do it in PvE games with death penalties.. but that is because I know I can soak that cost fairly easily. But it *does* make me think "is it worthwhile to do it just to save a couple of minutes travel time?"

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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What about powers that rely

What about powers that rely upon the "death" of a teammate? Vengeance? Fallout? Resurrect? Mutate? What would be the point in having these kinds of powers if everybody is trying their hardest not to die? Would you really take a power on the limited off chance that someone MIGHT die? No. You'd skip that power completely because that wouldn't maximize out your build. You'd have wasted a power pick in hopes that you might get an opportunity to use it.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

What about powers that rely upon the "death" of a teammate? Vengeance? Fallout? Resurrect? Mutate? What would be the point in having these kinds of powers if everybody is trying their hardest not to die? Would you really take a power on the limited off chance that someone MIGHT die? No. You'd skip that power completely because that wouldn't maximize out your build. You'd have wasted a power pick in hopes that you might get an opportunity to use it.

They can still be there. There is nothing to say that they would be "wasted picks". Because even in City of Heroes, I know very *few* people who would "stay dead" when they died. More often than not they would click the "go to hospital" button faster than I could throw them a wakie/click my rez button/use vengeance on them.

So it still happened in City of Heroes... I think that this is where the "general ethos" of the player base springs to mind. Because unless you tell people what other abilities you have *before hand* I am not going to hang around for a minute just waiting for a team mate to use an ability that they may or may not have.}

So does that mean for those "quick clickers" that they are making other people waste their power choices?

I don't think so. If anything, it just shows that even with the fact that there *were* these abilities around, they were not necessarily always taken.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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It doesn't take but a few

It doesn't take but a few seconds to check a teammate's build to see what powers they had. Some Super Groups were founded on the idea of using Vengeance, Fallout, and Mutate religiously. It was a game play style. I don't know how many "quick clickers" you played with, but rarely did I ever see that. My experience was quite the opposite. I couldn't tell you how many times I had to tell people to go to the Hospital because I didn't have any wakies or was unable to rez them with Resurrect or Mutate.

I really don't see why we need to have a large penalty on defeat. Is it really that bothersome? That was never my experience. I'd get a good laugh out of somebody running off without waiting for buffs or the rest of the team and watching their health bar go from full green to dead in a matter of seconds. It never bothered me. But then I'm not a hardcore raid gamer where one death means the entire raid is doomed to fail either. So a Leroy Jenkins doesn't upset me like it does some.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Powers that require a fresh

Powers that require a fresh friendly corpse to use are, in my opinion, something that CoT could skip doing altogether and I wouldn't miss them really. They're useless when soloing anyway, so why have them at all? As has been said, they're difficult to use even when people are ambivalent about getting themselves killed, because of the impatience and immediate rez factors. I don't see losing Fallout and Vengeance as any great problem (and technically, we're not losing anything, because those were powers that the OLD game had, not by any stretch of the imagination things that CoT was ever totally 100% going to have). As for RotP, if people want that, sure, include it. Maybe make it BETTER because death is more penalizing, like maybe you die, you pop RotP, you do a big AoE followed by immediate self rez and then get a short lived self buff similar to MoG or something.

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I disagree. I hope they do

I disagree. I hope they do include powers similar in design with Fallout and Vengeance. That was another thing about CoH that made it more unique. A corpse was a useful tool, not a hindrance. I agree with you that it isn't useful for a soloist, but this is a game that is trying to copy the same feel of CoH and teaming was a very big part of that along with the community.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

It doesn't take but a few seconds to check a teammate's build to see what powers they had. Some Super Groups were founded on the idea of using Vengeance, Fallout, and Mutate religiously. It was a game play style. I don't know how many "quick clickers" you played with, but rarely did I ever see that. My experience was quite the opposite. I couldn't tell you how many times I had to tell people to go to the Hospital because I didn't have any wakies or was unable to rez them with Resurrect or Mutate.
I really don't see why we need to have a large penalty on defeat. Is it really that bothersome? That was never my experience. I'd get a good laugh out of somebody running off without waiting for buffs or the rest of the team and watching their health bar go from full green to dead in a matter of seconds. It never bothered me. But then I'm not a hardcore raid gamer where one death means the entire raid is doomed to fail either. So a Leroy Jenkins doesn't upset me like it does some.

Did you religiously check what powers/abilities every person you teamed with had? Did you do that in PUG's/characters you had never teamed with?

The thing is, I would have said that it was up to the person with the ability to let people know what they had/didn't have, because as people say, City of Heroes really had so many different ways to build/play your characters, even within the same primary/secondary that you couldn't really say which powers were "must have".

But no where in the slightest am I telling the developers/players that they CANNOT have these abilities. I think that they should be there. It is something that CoX had that most other MMO's didn't have.

One thing that I did notice, that changed over the years was that in the early life of the game for me... people were more inclined to stay where they were and wait for the person with a rez to use them... Even if they had several minutes downtime. This was especially common with the old Hollows setup, where this could quite easily be the *faster* option compared to the Hospital trip. Also with the lack of travel powers (and the pre reqs that they had), it was also not unexpected to see people who might not have picked them up early enough.

Sure as the game aged and they reduced the requirements, it got faster... but depending on the server/group of people you played with, voice comms used (if any) and general team chatter, you might not necessarily be aware of the full capabilities of your team mates, until you saw them in action.

But as I said earlier... I am not saying that the developers CANNOT put in abilities like these. I am all for choice, I never said "take them out" either. It is a play style that I think should not be removed.

It is also worth noting that maybe there is an "auto release"[1] on the body (typically most other MMO's use 5 minutes as this limit) after a period of time. This can also be used as a balancing point for those abilities as well (you will not be able to use the same dead body for more than minutes. Of course, if someone else dies... keep on going.

Hell, you could set it up so that the use of a "dead body ability" actually added some time back to the "auto release" timer as well,

[1] This is where after a certain period of time you will select a default option. Typically this would be "go to graveyard/hospital" in most other MMO's but it doesn't necessarily have to be this.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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When it came to people I did

When it came to people I did not know, had never played with, or did not use the Ventrillo service we had, yes I religiously looked at their builds to see what they had. I did not want to go into a mission unprepared. If I knew they didn't have these powers then I would make sure to either carry around extra wakies or I'd make the quick trip to the hospital upon defeat. I learned that it's always best to do your research and never wait for someone else to give you something if you need it.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

When it came to people I did not know, had never played with, or did not use the Ventrillo service we had, yes I religiously looked at their builds to see what they had. I did not want to go into a mission unprepared. If I knew they didn't have these powers then I would make sure to either carry around extra wakies or I'd make the quick trip to the hospital upon defeat. I learned that it's always best to do your research and never wait for someone else to give you something if you need it.

Fair enough, so basically you judged people before you even started playing with them "just in case" something went wrong. And I don't have a problem with that. But I know that *numerous* other people didn't do that.

And hell, you are just one step away from banning people from joining X/Y/Z because they dont have A/B/C build/power choice what ever... even though that person could do it.

And I thought as well that CoX was such a *beautiful* game that you didn't need to do stuff like that to enjoy it.

And people here complain about other games, where people are allowed to see what they have equipped.... and gauging people just on that.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Quote:
Quote:

When it came to people I did not know, had never played with, or did not use the Ventrillo service we had, yes I religiously looked at their builds to see what they had. I did not want to go into a mission unprepared. If I knew they didn't have these powers then I would make sure to either carry around extra wakies or I'd make the quick trip to the hospital upon defeat. I learned that it's always best to do your research and never wait for someone else to give you something if you need it..

I never once looked at a team mates build to decide how I will play. The most I ever looked at was if they had KB powers or not...and then only when I was a melee class. The teammates build did not affect my playstyle at all. What did affect my playstyle was the teammates playstyle....and that you can't learn from a build.

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If I ever right-clicked on

If I ever right-clicked on anyone to check under the hood, so to speak, I was usually checking to see if they wrote anything in the info section. Origin stories, etc.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
When it came to people I did not know, had never played with, or did not use the Ventrillo service we had, yes I religiously looked at their builds to see what they had. I did not want to go into a mission unprepared. If I knew they didn't have these powers then I would make sure to either carry around extra wakies or I'd make the quick trip to the hospital upon defeat. I learned that it's always best to do your research and never wait for someone else to give you something if you need it.

Fair enough, so basically you judged people before you even started playing with them "just in case" something went wrong. And I don't have a problem with that. But I know that *numerous* other people didn't do that.
And hell, you are just one step away from banning people from joining X/Y/Z because they dont have A/B/C build/power choice what ever... even though that person could do it.
And I thought as well that CoX was such a *beautiful* game that you didn't need to do stuff like that to enjoy it.
And people here complain about other games, where people are allowed to see what they have equipped.... and gauging people just on that.

I don't see how seeing (or even asking) if a person had taken a rez power in a support set or not counts as judging or excluding people. I never cared what sets or powers other characters chose to have, but knowing what they had I could adjust my play-style to it, making the experience better for the entire team.

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This,

This,

Having the information and acting on it (whether negatively, positively or just shrugging 'noted') are two different things. I personally rarely ever looked up the info. If I did it was often from the point of view of being the support, to learn, for whatever reason, that this particular scrapper, tanker, brute, name your archtype, didn't have their mez or knockback protection power(s) particularly if it was within a few levels of when those choices would be made so I could be ready to supply Clear Mind (or whatever) as needed preemptively rather than "whoa the tanker just went flying and is stunned!"

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Not ONCE, have I ever kicked

Not ONCE, have I ever kicked somebody from a team because they didn't have X, Y, Z power or build. EVER. I am not that kind of a person. I only looked because like G.I. Joe taught me growing up, "Now I know. And KNOWING is half the battle." I looked at people's builds so I knew what to expect during a mission instead of having it randomly sprung on me in the middle of the mission when something important might be happening. To judge me because I wanted to be prepared for what may come...... Wow.

You can ask all my friends from CoH in the Repeat Offenders Network. NEVER have I cared what a person brought to a team. When asked if they should bring something specific my response was always, "Bring whatever you want to play the most, we'll make it work." Forgive me for wanting to be prepared and using the information I'm allowed to be prepared for the situations that come up.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Just wondering, but at ANY

Just wondering, but at ANY point did I say that the vengeance/fallout style of powers should be removed from the game?

I myself don't have a problem with people looking at what abilities I have either, nor the gear that I have slotted to be honest; and whilst you might get offended because I said that you were ONE step away from kicking/banning people because of what they had picked is understandable, I also never said that you did that either.

But the fact that you *religiously* looked at other peoples power choices is indeed strange in my mind.

*shrugs*

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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You never did, but Radiac did

You never did, but Radiac did. I was responding to Radiac's suggestion that they skip those powers all together. Also, does everything everybody else does that you don't do make everything strange to your mind? I apologize for being different and wanting to be prepared before hand going into a mission.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

You never did, but Radiac did. I was responding to Radiac's suggestion that they skip those powers all together. Also, does everything everybody else does that you don't do make everything strange to your mind? I apologize for being different and wanting to be prepared before hand going into a mission.

Oh no, not everything that everyone else does is strange in my mind... but then again, I have played a wide range of other MMO's for extensive amounts of time, and I have yet to really experience the fact that people would look up what powers another player had taken and then choose to take X/Y/Z as well to compensate. Generally people would *talk* about this in team chat/global channels before hand, instead of doing it on the "sly".

Now this could well be due to the fact that City of Heroes had a *limited* storage facility for inspirations, so I know that I generally tried to always keep a selection available at any point in time. I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure that I had X/Y/Z available.

In other MMO's I would just keep available at pretty much *ALL* times a range of healing/repair stuff to hand. This wouldn't take up any more space in my bags, because they were already "pre allocated".

So I believe that also the *early* experiences of how you game as well would dictate what you would take/play the game. So for me, in City of Heroes... my priorities were wakies above all else. It didn't matter who I teamed with, I always had wakies on hand, even if they were not "essential" for me (ie another person who could rez was on the team).

But that could well be due to who I teamed with as well, and the general server culture I was in. So whilst I am not saying that it *never* happened, it is just something that I never experienced.. so yes, it does seem strange to me.

Just like how some people here cannot seem to understand as to why some people prefer the "holy trinity" for their games compared to the "bring what you want" style of play in City of Heroes... even though the 2nd option was not always guaranteed to work. Then again, the holy trinity is an easy concept for people to understand, and a good point to work from for most people.

Would you believe me if I said that my server tended to do the BAF going for the "keep them seperated" badge every single time we ran it; even if everyone already had the badge? Or would it seem strange to you?

Because that is what we did.

So that might well seem strange for you, and when I tried it on the test server, it DID feel strange not doing it that way.. because that is all that I had known up to that point.

So yes, for a group of people who said that they dislike "gear scores" and other players knowing what they gear they have in other MMO's they seem fine letting people know what powers/bonuses they had in City of Heroes. For me, these things are *exactly* the same.

So even if you all you are doing it "preparing yourself" to play at highest capability, that is actually quite an *elitist* point of view in my mind.

For me, I seem to have seen more Americans complain about the attitude of players in PUGS in other MMO's, and yet for me I seem to have to look for the jerks in the games that I play, so maybe it is a culture difference.

That is all it could be, a culture difference, which is why somethings seem strange to one group or another.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I think there should be a

I think there should be a penalty for death, I just don't think it should be more than a moderate amount of XP debt or influence for level capped characters. However if I spend 50 levels saving and scrimping to afford a "decked out killer" and then lose a substantial percentage because I run by a GM or AV and faceplant, I think that is a tad extreme as well. That would most likely lead to me trying to speed my earnings through "Easymode" which I know would irritate members of this discussion as well.

When I was on a team I always looked at what was "under the hood". I was always curious if they took powers that I considered skippable, then watch how they used them to see if I had misjudged the power. Or I would look to get an idea of what powers to take if that person did crazy stuff and survived.

In the case of Static and any other member of Repeat Offenders I looked to see if they had Fallout, Vengeance, RotP, or other rez powers because it was a waste to die away from mobs who could be punished for killing me. Also a waste to go to the hospital if someone had a Rez they could use on me.

I can definitely say I was never kicked from a team by Static or any other member of RO, regardless of my lack of powers or skill at the game. I just knew better than to follow Rad or Static.

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:-)

:-)

Don't say we never warned ya!!

LOL

It's always fun to watch what we did, just at a safe distance.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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I wish I could have brought

I wish I could have brought myself to read more of this thread so I could respond with less ignorance of what has already been said, but the ongoing and escalating hostility just made that not worth the effort. That said, here are my views on death penalties, even though some of them aren't relevant given Tannim222's statements.

First off:

masterghostartist wrote:

death is only weird for those playing ghost avatars.
what?

oOOoo OoooO OOooooOoooOO oO o.

I didn't feel that XP debt was exceptionally relevant on CoH. It was kind of a pain early on, but eventually just mattered less and less, even before they nerfed it. Ultimately, if a feature of the game isn't going to be that relevant, I have to question the value of spending time coding and testing it. While "absolutely no death penalty" might not be the right answer, you can't fault it from the standpoint of development efficiency.

I actually kind of like the idea of defeat causing "wounds" that debuff you until they are healed or wear off on their own, with the wound's timer being reset if another wound is added to the stack. It would be assumed that some healing powers could clear wounds, or speed up their timer, or even some powers that might prevent wounds from occurring in the first place.. Heck, a wound could even be a debuff that some powers apply, making the death penalty just an application of an otherwise existing combat debuff... Just another status type.

I'm ok with the STO respawn timer. It's not too bad. For this genre though, I would prefer a slightly different implementation

The way I'd like to see defeat work in play would be as follows. You run out of HP and are "defeated." Defeated status would have a timer of 30 seconds or so, maybe a minute. You are not faceplanted, but rather reduced to a state of crawling away... slowed movement, inability to take any actions that affect anyone but yourself (unless you have a Rise of the Phoenix type of power). You have drastically reduced agro, and are extremely unlikely to be targeted in this state, even if you're running solo, though you are still capable of accumulating agro, by being too close to a hostile for too long. You can still click glowies, though getting sufficiently close to a glowy will impair your agro mitigation (being next to a glowy should increase your agro in any aspect of the game I believe. Enemies should want to prevent you from pushing the buttons on stuff). Being in this defeated, crawling state will increase your resistance to (or defense against, tech pending) AOE effects. While in this status, your passive regeneration and recovery abilities (standard stuff, not specific superpowers or consumables) will be impaired. You'll be healing, but slowly. If you do catch enough agro or aoe to be defeated again while in this status, you will gain a stack of wounded (which is a general percentage debuff to all powers and abilities, and has a significantly longer timer, like an hour or so) and your defeated status timer will reset.

As such, being defeated would not be an opportunity to go AFK until the healer gets around to you, but rather put you in a position of having to pay close attention to what you're doing, get away from hostiles, avoid aoe's, or maybe heroically drag yourself to a/the mission objective. If you have the powers or consumables, you can clear this status on your own. If you don't but someone else does, you can try to get to a better position while you wait for their assistance. If your team has a "Friends of Fallout" build, you can use your situation to try and leverage that. If you're too stubborn/reckless/unlucky, you may end up with a big stack of wounds that need to be dealt with, which should be inconvenient, but relatively easy to avoid or eventually recovery from, given healing powers, hospitals that speed recovery time, purchased boosts, etc.

Also, I am vehemently opposed to damaging gear as a death penalty, or even gear just suffering damage over time from standard adventuring... That's fine for DDO or WoW or whatever, but is not appropriate to the super hero genre. Frankly, I think the entire concept of "game economy" is inappropriate to the super hero genre. Spiderman having trouble paying rent or Bruce Wayne buying a series of shell companies to pay for a space station should be a matter of roleplay and character background, not game mechanics. Money sinks shouldn't be an issue because we shouldn't be dealing with "money" beyond the occasional ambiguous "bag of cash" collected in the aftermath of taking down a drug deal or robbing a bank.

Anyway, back to your previously scheduled indignation and passive/aggressive criticisms.

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I still like the idea of the

I still like the idea of the penalty for death being that you're captured and thrown into a prison/jail cell or a death trap of some sort. This would be a mini-instance from which you'd have to escape, spending time and perhaps resources to get back to where you were. This isn't, to my knowledge, currently planned, but it is something we could add later. Monetary or other penalties could also be optional "get out of jail" options, as you pay a bail bondsman to get you out or you bribe the corrupt guards of your death trap or the like, as a shortcut.

Like I said, this isn't currently in the works to my knowledge; it's just an idea that amuses me.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Not ONCE, have I ever kicked somebody from a team because they didn't have X, Y, Z power or build. EVER. I am not that kind of a person. I only looked because like G.I. Joe taught me growing up, "Now I know. And KNOWING is half the battle." I looked at people's builds so I knew what to expect during a mission instead of having it randomly sprung on me in the middle of the mission when something important might be happening. To judge me because I wanted to be prepared for what may come...... Wow.
You can ask all my friends from CoH in the Repeat Offenders Network. NEVER have I cared what a person brought to a team. When asked if they should bring something specific my response was always, "Bring whatever you want to play the most, we'll make it work." Forgive me for wanting to be prepared and using the information I'm allowed to be prepared for the situations that come up.

Troof!

No one on a Repeat Offenders team was ever worthless.
Expendable? On occasion, sure, but never worthless.
We'd always make something out of nothing! :D

---
Now: Anthem's Special Envoy for Economic Growth and Free Trade
Then: Underboss for Acquisitions and Capital Investments - The Black Rose
Soon: Operational Commander, Titan City Citizens' Assault Team (TCCAT) - Tarot Counter-Assault Unit

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*coughs* Consequences of

*coughs* Consequences of defeat is something we brought up in our previous passes on a death penalty, to be used when the location / type of story makes sense. I will be sure to add a note about using currency sinks when appropriate too.

We aren't necessarily looking to apply one set penalty, rather different methods which all surround what the a death penalty represents at its core; a time sink. Using currency to buy a way around time sink (where appropriate) is something for consideration if it can be applied well.


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I like the "you got captured

I like the "you got captured by the baddies" defeat thing. CoX had it, and I felt it added flavor in that game.

Edit: You don't have that as a gimmick in open world PVE though, as there's no mission map in that case.

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While I don't know what the

While I don't know what the game intends to use in this case.. I must say I LOVE that in many new games any class can revive a fallen ally.

I would like the Time To Revive to be varied (mostly by class.. buffer/healers getting priority) but it really makes a positive impact on teaming for me.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

While I don't know what the game intends to use in this case.. I must say I LOVE that in many new games any class can revive a fallen ally.
I would like the Time To Revive to be varied (mostly by class.. buffer/healers getting priority) but it really makes a positive impact on teaming for me.

Hmmm, Sooo.. single target revive power can be taken by any class from a Power Pool, but it recharges much longer, and it wont grant a boost to any status effects?

But, defender like power-sets, a few only?, might have an AoE Revive that takes time to recharge, but grans only a few boosts... (in CoH/V, i think Dark Miasma had something like that?)
...or a single target revive that grants boosts to Allot of Effects? (in CoH/V, was it Pain Domination that had that?)

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Well I'm speaking to a free

Well I'm speaking to a free revive that is available without choosing it in power pools as a game mechanic when your character is not in combat.

There would of course be other types of revives that players could buy for greater use (maybe some that give full health instead of only a percentage.. maybe an AoE revive.. etc).

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One distinction here is that

One distinction here is that all characters can have the ability to self-revice with our version of inspirations. Powers that revive will provide addtional benefits other than just getting back into action.


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So this like "you can have

So this like "you can have the Rage flavored Wakie, or the Catch a Breath flavored one..."?

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I think, if Awakens are in

I think, if Awakens are in the game, then there is no need for a separate 'revive teammate' power.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

While I don't know what the game intends to use in this case.. I must say I LOVE that in many new games any class can revive a fallen ally.
I would like the Time To Revive to be varied (mostly by class.. buffer/healers getting priority) but it really makes a positive impact on teaming for me.

Agreed, this is one thing that I have noticed in Wildstar.

All classes can "out of combat" revive players, the major difference being the distance that they can do it from the corpse.

So this means that if someone dies near a mob, the person doing the rez can be out of aggro range and the dead person being revived *AT* the location of the caster.

Now if there were in combat rez's they would be more flexible/more benefits for the caster.

Guild Wars 2 does something similar, where any player can revive a downed player.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We have talked about what defeat looks like for the game. While I can't release details, I can say that we will not be imposing detrimental effects on a defeated character or reducing effectiveness of powers (like breaking, reducing, of slotted improvements).

How about a balloon in the shape of an L tied to your hair? And you can pay $6.95 and have a shiny mylar balloon. This on top of whatever else.

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Okay, after reading

Okay, after reading (basically) the whole thread, I decided it was worth making an account just to pitch my thoughts. And it might be prodding a dead horse at this point, but I still feel as if this has potential to be a great point of discussion.

So what is my opinion you ask? It's a bit varied but basically...

why not REWARD a player for doing well, instead of punishing "bad" play. Carrot instead of Stick?

Complete an instance or a mission without dying? Why not a bonus to EXP or the like?

On the other hand, say you die 25 times on the same thing? Why not be kicked from it for X minutes and be suggested to level up?

It was asked why we need to punish players for dying. I don't think we need to punish them per se. This way those who prefer a Jenkins approach aren't being penalized for having their brand of fun, while Johnny Cautious can still feel like they lose something when they die.

OK I said it, now fling your poo as you please.

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deltaE93 wrote:
deltaE93 wrote:

Okay, after reading (basically) the whole thread, I decided it was worth making an account just to pitch my thoughts. And it might be prodding a dead horse at this point, but I still feel as if this has potential to be a great point of discussion.
So what is my opinion you ask? It's a bit varied but basically...
why not REWARD a player for doing well, instead of punishing "bad" play. Carrot instead of Stick?
Complete an instance or a mission without dying? Why not a bonus to EXP or the like?
On the other hand, say you die 25 times on the same thing? Why not be kicked from it for X minutes and be suggested to level up?
It was asked why we need to punish players for dying. I don't think we need to punish them per se. This way those who prefer a Jenkins approach aren't being penalized for having their brand of fun, while Johnny Cautious can still feel like they lose something when they die.
OK I said it, now fling your poo as you please.

Your first example is something we are already considering, with more incentives to complete missions. Those bonuses though or orthogonal to a death penalty.

The bias for many death penalty systems in games is to crate a time sink, a reason to keep the player playing when their character has faced defeat.

Simply put, actions have consequences. The positive consequence to the positive outcome of not being defeated is a bonus reward upon an achievement. The negative consequence of being defeated isn't the loss of the bonus, because the bonus isn't an absolute necessity, there is still an earn able reward. Taking away rewards as more defeats occur is too punitive,

We stick with the game reward and bonus reward, someone who is defeated obtains the base reward and achieves gain at the median expected rate, someone who isn't defeated receives the bonus and receive reward at the above-median expected rate.

Multiple defeats restricting access to content could result in dividing players. Kenny is dead again, he can't team with us for 30 min let's go on.

Instead defeat should look at ways to keep the player playing, and do so in a way that results in a time sink for longer play without seeming too punitive or divisive to teaming. Its a tricky tightrope walk to do well.


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First off hi deltaE93 and

First off hi deltaE93 and welcome :)

With your first idea of giving players that don't die an XP Bonus at mission completion you will find that some people will complain that their playstyle is being negatively impacted. An example from elsewhere in this thread is that power (name?) that exploded a dead teammate for AoE damage. PersonA would run into the mob and grab agro and die. PersonB would explode PersonA's dead body and rez them.
Wile that's not a tactic I ever used some people did and there is nothing wrong with it either.
Also the Robotic Pack had a self-destruct power - a friend of mine was very good a getting close to levelling up, hitting that power and using the deaths from the explosion to level-rez. It was always a funny experience watching him try it and when it worked he entire team cheered. With an XP Penalty that probably wouldn't have happened.

But its not an XP Penalty? I know. Instead your suggestion was give a Bonus if you don't die. The standard XP if you do die. But as I didn't get it I am being penalised. That's the way some people will see it.

For your 2nd suggestion of kicking a person from the mission if they die too often, as Tannim said his could cause problems for teams. Even I Solo and I was struggling that much with a mission but I was wearing the bad guys down I wouldn't want to be restricted o playing that character or mission.
Now having a suggestion box appear after your X death in Y mins or the same mission to recommend lowering the difficulty or asking for assistance I can see that being a good idea (with a "Do not remind me again" tick box).

This is my poo (I mean feedback) and all ideas are good ideas :)

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Thanks for the reply tannim.

Thanks for the reply tannim. (and cybermitheral)

So I guess it comes down to WHEN you're punish deaths as well as how. Is it every death? Is it every X amount of deaths? Like you said, it's a tough tightrope to walk well.

Maybe something like a tier system? 1% of exp lost for every 10 deaths? (For example) but that could have problems all its own.

But splitting teams is something I thought about after posting. I don't really want to divide players from friends or guild members. It would hurt the friendliness of the community and would cause some to rage quit. And driving people away isn't something I want to happen.

And restrictions on content like that also even goes against something I myself do in many games and mmos. Which is to try and beat missions or dungeons above my level to add a personal challenge and a sense of accomplishment.

I do think that cybermitheral's suggestion of a "get help" pop up is a good one though. Perhaps to encourage some solo players to try team play, because when I first played mmos after coming from a mostly single player experience, it was somewhat daunting to take that first step into teaming with pubs or joining a guild.

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Without getting ti to

Without getting ti to specifics the solutions we are exploring for death penalties arent necezsarily "one size fits all".

I floated the concept of a "Helper's queue" with our team a while back. Players an opt in to be a helper and there would be a "call for help" option perhaps on the Team Search window. Anytime someone calls for help one of the helpers in queue would be randomly selected. The selected helper would get a pop up message loke "so and so needs your help. Do you wish to go?" Comfirming would teleport the helper to the caller, declining would send the search to another person in the queue.

Using the Team Search window can allow for opting for level ranges and even claasification selections. If no one within the limits set is in queue the caller would be advised to revise their search or automatically search the enitre queue. Its something still being considered and it may not be a launch feature.


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That sounds like an

That sounds like an interesting potential search feature. Interesting enough to stand alone and not something that should necessarily require dying first. Though I guess one could accomplish much the same just by using the search functions in the normal manner (just no teleport to the mission involved). I often used the Hide function when in my sg base or otherwise not teaming but would likely have been willing to place myself on such a 'helper' list if such had existed in CoX (but otherwise remaining hidden).

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I floated the concept of a "Helper's queue" with our team a while back. Players an opt in to be a helper and there would be a "call for help" option perhaps on the Team Search window. Anytime someone calls for help one of the helpers in queue would be randomly selected. The selected helper would get a pop up message loke "so and so needs your help. Do you wish to go?" Comfirming would teleport the helper to the caller, declining would send the search to another person in the queue.

I would love such a feature. Although I spent a lot of time soloing, I loved being able to jump in and help someone who was having difficulties and then fly off into the sunset. I would probably flag all my characters as helpers in such a scheme.

(Reminds me of the time someone had a bug in a mission where an invisible wall was preventing him from getting to a glowie. I grabbed a character with TP and Recall Friend and was able to help him complete the mission without having to wait for Support.)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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The idea of a helpers queue

The idea of a helpers queue sounds fantastic. It could help pair solo players, and could be a fun feature on its own. I know I have days where I get on and do nothing special, and I could see myself using it a lot.

And bonus points for fitting the theme of super heroes. Hero SoSo is defeated, but then hero BackupGuy comes in to save the day. Could be a fun thing for players who love their RP.

And as for the comments about death penalties, all I can say is you cheeky tease.

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The helpers queue sounds

The helpers queue sounds great, I'd be on it whenever I can. I hope this finds a way into the game somewhere.

And the bonus reward for completing a mission without defeat would also be a nice positive incentive, it reminds me a bit of the challenges you could add to ouroboros- missions. You could add a timer or a maximum number of defeats to earn some badges.

I also had an Idea while reading one of Radiac's posts. He mentioned a more powerful Improvement that carried a risk to be lost on defeat. It was harshly criticized, but I do think it is a principle that can offer some interesting options. A milder variant of it might be a kind of Improvement that is basically weaker as others on the same level, but can collect stacks that increase it's effectiveness. The downside is those stacks get lost on defeat and you'd need to collect them all over again. Yes, no money sink, but a motivation to avoid being defeated nonetheless.

And as for resurrection costs, how about the formula 'x% of what the character has earned in the last y hours of game-time, but never more than z% of his current possessions'? That way the penalty would be directly connected to the wealth income, would not penalize long time savings and you'd never face the situation that you could not afford it.

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Not sure if someone suggested

Not sure if someone suggested it already, but I'm going to make an unpopular suggestion:

The penalty for death itself should be light but there should just be more missions where you can fail if you wipe.

That said, I think the way missions and rewards are structured should accommodate. So if your team fails the missions, you should be able to choose to retry the mission or continue to the next. Also, all the rewards allocated during the mission (to include xp, drops and currency) should go to a kind of 'reward inventory' and upon completing the mission, you receive that reward (maybe even with options to trade in the currency for more xp or drops for currency or xp for more drops...kinda like how you could turn xp off in CoX). Of course, if you fail the mission, everything in the reward inventory goes poof.

It would also kinda give some incentive to street sweeping since any xp, drops and currency would be injected right into your inventory for assured progress.

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Leo_G wrote:
Leo_G wrote:

Not sure if someone suggested it already, but I'm going to make an unpopular suggestion:
The penalty for death itself should be light but there should just be more missions where you can fail if you wipe.

Actually, I can get behind this. To avoid frustration you could implement an easily noticeable warning before you accept it. And / or a dialogue in case you really did wipe asking if you would like to retry, adjust difficulty and retry or accept defeat and get only part of the reward.

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I'm going to use this as a

I'm going to use this as a chance to re-iterate something I always like to talk about: design space.

In a game where you have no penalties for getting defeated, there isn't a lot you can do to affect that with things like powers, enhancements, inspirations, etc. But if you put in some kind of penalty for getting defeated, you can then also make things people would use to remedy that, like an Insp that rezzes you and undoes the negative effects of getting defeated, or a set bonus in your IO enhancement sets that prevents the negative thing from happening when you die, OR an enhancement set bonus that makes it WORSE but gives you some other awesome cool benefit, like raising your total Hit Points, or your endo recovery rate, or something, etc.

Negative effects in games feel like punishment on their face, but they open up room for the devs to put in all kinds of goodies to modify or affect them in various ways. They add a dimension to the game that can be explored by every power, enhancement, inspiration, cash shop item, mission, SG base item, etc.

I've used this analogy before, and I think I was told by the devs that they aren't going to do "lose gear on defeat" as a thing, but with that as a pretty classic defeat penalty, here's what you could do:

Base rule: When you get defeated, you lose one randomly chosen Enhancement from among the ones you have actively slotted into your powers and/or the ones in your tray that you probably just picked up and are carrying around to either sell or dump or whatever.

But then with that base rule in place, you could make a rare IO that when slotted in a power gives that power WAY better stats, and ups your overall endo recovery and recharge rates, etc, BUUUUT when you die THAT IO get's preferentially deleted instead of the random one.

OR, your awesome IO that does awesome things for you when slotted doesn't volunteer for the random delete on defeat, but it causes TWO random deletes instead of one, so you might get to keep that one, but two OTHERS go bye-bye.

OR you could have an IO that is merely good in the power its in, maybe but not the single best option overall, BUUUUUT it NEVER get's deleted because it has "NO DELETION" as a property of the IO itself.

There's a million directions you can go in with stuff like that, you get the Idea.

So yeah, I'm not against having some negative effects of getting defeated, because it opens up a lot of room for more cool stuff that could exist too. Yay more cool stuff.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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No Disintegrations!

No Disintegrations!

Be Well!
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If you want to make me sit in

If you want to make me sit in time-out for 30 seconds before I can rejoin the battle, fine. If you want to throw me into a prison I have to break the door down before I can rejoin the battle, fine. If you want to send me to a Hospital and make me have to hoof it back to my mission before I can rejoin the battle, fine. If you want to destroy my enhancements when I die..........NOPE! Death WILL happen. No way around it. To punish me that severely for something that is going to happen regardless of how hard I try NOT too? No sir.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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MWM have said that there will

MWM have said that there will be missions which can develop along different lines depending on actions taken or choices made. It's entirely plausible that there could be missions in which "dying" could trigger such an alternate scenario.

E.g. From Kickstarter Update 22:

Quote:

Even more important, such things and how you choose to deal with them may make the difference between rescuing a hostage now and seeing her swept into a pipe by a torrent of water to a distant location where you may face new challenges in order to save her.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

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For what its worth, I'm not

For what its worth, I'm not against having XP debt and maybe Inf debt when level capped as a defeat penalty, in addition to all the other stuff oOStaticOo mentioned, which was stuff CoX had.

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Debt was fine, but when I

Debt was fine, but when I started playing games after CoH where I was fricking put in "time out" when I got killed, I just couldn't believe it. What a horrible mechanic.

I personally really, really don't like that mechanic. Now, give me a door to break through or a way to fight my way back to the battle--fine. But don't sit me helplessly in timeout while the rest of the team fights on.

If they capture me, fine, that could be cool, but I need the possibility of breaking free and getting back to the team. Don't make me a frickin Damsel in Distress.

Short emo rant there, but it's how I feel :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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In a purely academic

In a purely academic/theoretical sense, the time-out that Empyrean mentions having hated so much was, in fact, doing its job really well as an incentive to remain alive by retreating from imminent danger rather than just hitting the attack button until someone dies (you or the target). I think any decent penalty for getting defeated that really IS filling that role WOULD be a thing that you strongly dislike having happen to you when it does happen. Thus, the hallmark of a "good" defeat penalty, from a design perspective, is that people generally hate it when it happens. The more mild the defeat penalty is, the less complaining people will be apt to do, but then that only proves that it basically isn't doing its job very well either, one could argue.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

In a purely academic/theoretical sense, the time-out that Empyrean mentions having hated so much was, in fact, doing its job really well as an incentive to remain alive by retreating from imminent danger rather than just hitting the attack button until someone dies (you or the target). I think any decent penalty for getting defeated that really IS filling that role WOULD be a thing that you strongly dislike having happen to you when it does happen. Thus, the hallmark of a "good" defeat penalty, from a design perspective, is that people generally hate it when it happens. The more mild the defeat penalty is, the less complaining people will be apt to do, but then that only proves that it basically isn't doing its job very well either, one could argue.

Good academic/theoretical point, but just as practical counterpoint, that mechanic does have more than a little to do with why I don't play those games at all any more, in that it also disincented me from playing by making the game less fun for me. And I was one of those people who made a concerted effort never to die in CoH.

This is all, admittedly, a very personal subjective experience/opinion of mine. Not objective at all :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I can not say I like to have

I can not say I like to have a timeout penalty. But I could warm up to it if it is done well, not just a view of my character liyng on the ground and the colors fade, while sad music plays and a window pops up, showing me how long I have to wait.

I would do something like this: Upon defeat, a window pops up and asks if you want to be teleportet to the hospital. If you do so, you will get to see an animation that shows your character pulling out a com unit or something like that, activating it and getting teleportet out. Fade to black. Fade in to an animation of the character stepping out of a regeneration tank, some medic gives him a thumbs up and you're in control again. That could fill 15 seconds and would not be as annoying, at least to me. If done well it could even add to the atmosphere.

And a little off topic, it would be nice if the defeated state would not be lying motionless on the ground. For me it always looked too much like dead. There could be various poses like the character on his knees, holding his chest or struggling and failing to get up again, that would portray that you are indeed defeatet and can no longer fight, but at least still alive.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

In a purely academic/theoretical sense, the time-out that Empyrean mentions having hated so much was, in fact, doing its job really well as an incentive to remain alive by retreating from imminent danger rather than just hitting the attack button until someone dies (you or the target). I think any decent penalty for getting defeated that really IS filling that role WOULD be a thing that you strongly dislike having happen to you when it does happen. Thus, the hallmark of a "good" defeat penalty, from a design perspective, is that people generally hate it when it happens. The more mild the defeat penalty is, the less complaining people will be apt to do, but then that only proves that it basically isn't doing its job very well either, one could argue.

I dont know if its a good idea to STRESS that your character died.. too much, because it can subconsciously make the player fell LESS than Super. And for a SuperHero game... that MIGHT Not be the best Idea. :(

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"Hurry to get back into the

"Hurry to get back into the fight" is far more appealing that "Time out" while still being something not preferred and thus supporting semirealistic, cautious hero/villian behavior. Breaking out of an on-map prison, racing back from a hospital or safe entrance point, playing a minigame or firing a basic power that can grant a second wind, whatever... Action is key. Some of these even give teammates new gameplay options to help the defeated, despite not having a rez power. What scrapper wouldn't try to solo the path to the prison to rescue a friend?

Gangrel
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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

*snip* firing a basic power that can grant a second wind, whatever... Action is key. Some of these even give teammates new gameplay options to help the defeated, despite not having a rez power.

Which is something that Guild Wars 2 does. When you are "downed" you can still attack mobs/heal yourself/transport a *short*distance possibly out of harms way. And others can heal you back up (they don't even need to be a healer... although the healer can do it faster).

And even when you are "fully dead" any other player can rez you. This is is something that the newer MMO's (Wildstar/Guild Wars 2) are doing, so you don't need that dedicated support/healer person nearby to actually bring you back from the long walk to the group (even though travel in those games is relatively fast as well).

Adding in the prisons idea, that would be something that can work in situations that seem logical to include it in.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I have certain doubts that it

I have certain doubts that it would be good to adapt that everyone can rezz from Guild Wars 2 to City of Titans. It is a good idea for Guild Wars, because they do not have dedicated healers. But for City of Titans where there will be the support themed Guardian- classification and most likely powers that allow you to rezz, wouldn't those be a little devaluated? As far as I recall the skills Guild Wars 2 offers for rezzing are highly unpopular, or is that just my bad luck that I never saw anybody using them?

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Valid point; I don't want rez

Valid point; I don't want rez powers to be devalued. We should have a number of options to distinguish between rez powers of various tiers.

"Healer Power" and "Self Power" Rez --> full health and endurance, longer immunity to damage, long immunity to xp debt or whatever penalty would ordinarily apply if defeated again, thematic buffs depending on the power used. Basically, resume fighting immediately with minimal risk. Examples - pretty much everywhere, including CoH, though I think CoH did the self-rez power mechanics better than most games, once they got the immunity duration bugs fixed. Durations could have been a second or two longer, IMHO, to permit retoggling defenses.

"Inspiration" Rez --> recovery % and immunity durations depend on the quality of the inspiration. Number of attempts is limited by inspiration tray space, unless friends also help. Risk is of a second defeat is moderate unless also combined with buff inspirations or help from the team. Examples - pretty much everywhere, including CoH.

(if we have it...)
"Helping Hand" generic rez from anyone - recover with low health and endurance, brief immunities, and no buffs. Cannot be rezzed this way again for a moderate time. Basically, run and recover unless combined with heavy use of buff inspirations. Similar to examples found in Neverwinter, Wildstar?, GW2?, and many current-gen FPS cooperative modes.

(if we have it...)
"Second Wind" rez from self actions - recover with low health and endurance, brief immunities, and no buffs. Cannot self-rez this way again for a long time. Basically, one chance to run and recover or fight while using a lot of inspirations. Similar to GW2?, Borderlands 2.

*? indicates that I haven't tried those games yet.

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The dedicated defender

The dedicated defender/support class can always have a BETTER rez than the generic Wakie or whatever. IN COX the "Awaken" Inspirtation got you back on your feet and you were stumbling around punch-drunk for a few seconds. The Radiation Emission defender set rez power, Mutation, rezzed the target and gave them a temporary buff, then when you came down from that buff you got a little woozy, for a seconr or two, I seem to recall. So there are better and worse ways to rez people.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I know that I always carried

I know that I always carried a spare Awaken that I could give to a teammate, so in that sense I had a rez power, as limited as it was.

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How about the helping- hand-

How about the helping- hand- rezz starts out relatively weak and say can only be used out of combat. But there are supposed to be non- combat powers, those could be used to improve it.

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Lutan wrote:
Lutan wrote:

I have certain doubts that it would be good to adapt that everyone can rezz from Guild Wars 2 to City of Titans. It is a good idea for Guild Wars, because they do not have dedicated healers. But for City of Titans where there will be the support themed Guardian- classification and most likely powers that allow you to rezz, wouldn't those be a little devaluated? As far as I recall the skills Guild Wars 2 offers for rezzing are highly unpopular, or is that just my bad luck that I never saw anybody using them?

Well Wildstar uses the "anyone can rez" thing. although with Wildstar you can only rez people outside of combat. So I can see as to how healers/support in CoT can have it as an "in combat" option.

I think the reason as to why Guild Wars 2 players don't really use it is because it takes up a slot in your limited action set, and that it (memory is hazy on this) that is ALL it can do. Sure, there might be some additional benefit, but it takes up a limited slot.

Elementalist: Glyph of Renewal (165 second cooldown)l. There are several variations of this one, depending on your attunement (Earth/Air/Fire/Water). So you can rez up to 3 people, teleport the rez person to your location when they revive, give yourself a self rez for 15 seconds, rez the person to full health.
Necromancer: Signet of Undeath (180 second cooldown). This can rez up to 3 players in a single go. With a long cooldown.

These are the only two abilities that rez players in Guild Wars 2 that don't require you to take yourself out of combat for a period of time.

It is also worth pointing out that in Guild Wars 2, the more players that assist in a "generic" rez (one that everyoe can do), the faster it is. So you will tend to find in large battles that players will suddenly go around in a pack rezzing their downed allies.

And the really organised players will all try to die in (or get to) a single location to make it easier/faster.

So there is the variation there, you could just be unlucky but I believe that in general you could be catching the other person off guard with it. I guess this all depends on the build you are playing. I know that within my group of friends who play together, that they generally have one or the other available.

Plus points for not forcing the players to wait for a cooldown/bad luck no wakie available and at least saying that as long one of the party is alive they can get everyone one else up.

Which reminds me of a Wildstar tactic, where spellslinger healers are typically the last to die and so as a result tend to act as rez/summon bots for raids/dungeons. This is because they have an ability (along with stalkers) that forces them to drop "out of combat and rez" when they die (or they just stealth out at the very end to drop aggro/combat status) and rez the players manually.

So there are variations of things out there already. Oh and in Wildstar, what class you plays dictates how close you have to be to a player to be able to rez them. Slingers have a *stupidly* long range (along with Espers)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Radiac wrote:
In a purely academic/theoretical sense, the time-out that Empyrean mentions having hated so much was, in fact, doing its job really well as an incentive to remain alive by retreating from imminent danger rather than just hitting the attack button until someone dies (you or the target). I think any decent penalty for getting defeated that really IS filling that role WOULD be a thing that you strongly dislike having happen to you when it does happen. Thus, the hallmark of a "good" defeat penalty, from a design perspective, is that people generally hate it when it happens. The more mild the defeat penalty is, the less complaining people will be apt to do, but then that only proves that it basically isn't doing its job very well either, one could argue.

Good academic/theoretical point, but just as practical counterpoint, that mechanic does have more than a little to do with why I don't play those games at all any more, in that it also disincented me from playing by making the game less fun for me. And I was one of those people who made a concerted effort never to die in CoH.
This is all, admittedly, a very personal subjective experience/opinion of mine. Not objective at all :P.

I dunno. . . If CoX reappeared somehow but instead of XP debt if had 30sec-1 min time outs, I wouldn't give a damn an still go play it.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The Radiation Emission defender set rez power, Mutation, rezzed the target and gave them a temporary buff, then when you came down from that buff you got a little woozy, for a seconr or two, I seem to recall. So there are better and worse ways to rez people.

Naw, the rezzed character blew chunks. It was, like, a 1000mag hold on that character for a short time. It was actually pretty annoying before suppressing toggles.

As for gw2, everyone rezzed people at the same speed (unless you equipped mercy runes or were a warrior with a certain trait). Because of that, any rez skills sucked.

If CoT puts in inspiration type thingies, the rez should probably be weaker and slower than in CoX.

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?

?

Mutation debuffed your To Hit and Damage once the buff period elapsed (90 sec buff period, then 45 sec debuff). The buffs were for To Hit, Damage, Recovery, and attack speed as well as protecting you from debt for 90 sec. Only the To Hit and Damage were debuffed far as I know. The +recovery granted to the ally was base 100% and enhanceable. Five sets had an ally rez power (Empathy, Thermal, Radiation Emission, Dark Miasma and Nature Affinity) plus the Medicine Pool had Resuscitate.

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You forgot Poison's Elixir of

You forgot Poison's Elixir of Life.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Well Wildstar uses the "anyone can rez" thing. although with Wildstar you can only rez people outside of combat. So I can see as to how healers/support in CoT can have it as an "in combat" option.
I think the reason as to why Guild Wars 2 players don't really use it is because it takes up a slot in your limited action set, and that it (memory is hazy on this) that is ALL it can do. Sure, there might be some additional benefit, but it takes up a limited slot.

Well, some of them have very strong benefits, so that the rezz can almost be considered a side effect. The Battle Standart revives when placed and applies strong buffs to allies. I have seen this one, always used right at the start of the combat, for the buffs only. And the Ranger can use the Natures Renewal command of the Spirit of Nature every 30 seconds to revive three allies and remove one condition from up to five allies.

And yes, you can only have a very small numbers of skills. But while City of Titans will probably be less restricted, there will be choices like 'I can not have all of them... do I pick another attack, faster travel or the rezz power?' And I do not want to encourage the thought 'who needs a rezz power anyway, I'm better of not picking it.'

Quote:

Elementalist: Glyph of Renewal (165 second cooldown)l. There are several variations of this one, depending on your attunement (Earth/Air/Fire/Water). So you can rez up to 3 people, teleport the rez person to your location when they revive, give yourself a self rez for 15 seconds, rez the person to full health.Necromancer: Signet of Undeath (180 second cooldown). This can rez up to 3 players in a single go. With a long cooldown.
These are the only two abilities that rez players in Guild Wars 2 that don't require you to take yourself out of combat for a period of time.
It is also worth pointing out that in Guild Wars 2, the more players that assist in a "generic" rez (one that everyoe can do), the faster it is. So you will tend to find in large battles that players will suddenly go around in a pack rezzing their downed allies.
And the really organised players will all try to die in (or get to) a single location to make it easier/faster.
So there is the variation there, you could just be unlucky but I believe that in general you could be catching the other person off guard with it. I guess this all depends on the build you are playing. I know that within my group of friends who play together, that they generally have one or the other available.
Plus points for not forcing the players to wait for a cooldown/bad luck no wakie available and at least saying that as long one of the party is alive they can get everyone one else up.

Yes, true. More people reviving made it faster up to almost instant. But I think this only adds weight to the argument that this ability would devalue rezz skills. If it would work the same way in City of Titans as it does in Guild Wars 2.

See, I am not fully against something like it, but since City of Titans is going to have supporters, I would like to restrict the generic rezz a lot more than Guild Wars 2 did. Simply to avoid them loosing appeal.

As for Wildstar, I have not played it yet. I do not know much about how their rezz works and how it fits into the gameplay, so I can not say much about the pros and cons of it.

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Lutan wrote:
Lutan wrote:

See, I am not fully against something like it, but since City of Titans is going to have supporters, I would like to restrict the generic rezz a lot more than Guild Wars 2 did. Simply to avoid them loosing appeal.

Hmm.. Interesting. ;)

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Lutan wrote:
Lutan wrote:

As for Wildstar, I have not played it yet. I do not know much about how their rezz works and how it fits into the gameplay, so I can not say much about the pros and cons of it.

The Wildstar "rez" can only be done out of combat, and whilst any class can use the rez, the difference between them is the range at which you can be to the dead player. Melee players (Warrior for example) have to be almost on top of the other player, whilst the Spellslinger/Esper (Range DPS/healing) can do the same at ranges up to 20m.

There are no "incombat" rez's (well not as we know it), although depending on the class, they can have something that happens *WHEN* they die (ie avoid the killing blow, go into the void/stealth up to drop aggro and then reappear 2-4 seconds later... even just a normal "Heal back to half health (usable every 5 minutes) )

This means that in difficult situations (ie boss mob standing on the corpse), you would rather have a ranged player to do the rez, instead of the melee.

This does not also include the options to rez at a local graveyard, nor the fact that settler path players can summon the whole raid/group to their location (has a cooldown though). So regrouping after death for the whole party can be just a few seconds overall.

I would like to say, that I haven't even gotten onto tactics where you have your spellslinger healer dive into the void when a raid wipe is called, so that the boss resets and then they can quickly summon. This normally happens when you wipe on trash mobs (overpulling can result in trouble). In raids, there is also normally a graveyard just outside the raid boss room, so you rarely miss overall time between attempts.

And yes, my guild is still raiding, and we take the downtime between deaths to discuss what went wrong and what we can do to avoid it. This downtime also comes in useful when we are dealing with 2-3 different languages, so we also take the time to translate stuff.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

And yes, my guild is still raiding, and we take the downtime between deaths to discuss what went wrong and what we can do to avoid it. This downtime also comes in useful when we are dealing with 2-3 different languages, so we also take the time to translate stuff.

Heh.. is that you in that Anime: http://www.crunchyroll.com/log-horizon/episode-10-guild-master-661797
;)

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The idea of charging players

The idea of charging players a power point for something that is at best situational (and even then a situation you greatly wish to avoid) is against my values of build parity.

I'm in favor of a free rez to all builds with varying effect based on role.

MDPS/RDPS/Pets - 1 Character 8 seconds out of combat only
Tank - 1 Character 6 seconds in combat
Controller - 1 Character 4 seconds in combat
Support - 1-7 Characters AoE 4 Seconds in combat

Or something along those lines.

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