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This Kickstarter Makes No Sense

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jackal
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This Kickstarter Makes No Sense

So you've raised over $600,000 from City of Heroes fans....

Why don't you just buy the source code for City of Heroes and turn the servers back on ??

Use the money you have raised to bring the game we all want to play back online, rather than wasting all this time building a new game that isn't going to be as good? It makes no sense.

Played since City of Heroes BETA!

Darkfaith
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Because the source code for

Because the source code for City of Heroes isn't for sale? Because there is an effort underway to buy the IP (not by MWM), but without the source code CoH will have to be rebuild on a new engine anyways? Because some of us, as much as we loved (and still love!) CoH, want to see this new game go through because it's got a lot of potential?

If you're interested in the effort to purchase the IP, see the threads on the Titan Network forums (found here http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?board=161.0). The relevant posts are the first posts in the topics "New Efforts" and "And the mask comes off".

JayBezz
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Wasting time building a new

Wasting time building a new game?

I plainly disagree with everything in the OP. Welcome to the boards, but you're not going to influence much if you have that little understanding of 1) what CoT is and 2) What it actually takes to "remake CoH"

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Darth Fez
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Raise funds for one project

So, the suggestion is that funds raised for one project should be misused to fund a different project.

I believe this is the first time, outside of a movie, that I've seen someone declare that not committing a crime "makes no sense".

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AmbiDreamer
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

So, the suggestion is that funds raised for one project should be misused to fund a different project.
I believe this is the first time, outside of a movie, that I've seen someone declare that not committing a crime "makes no sense".

The first time declaring that not committing a crime makes no sense? It feels like there is a banker or politician joke there just waiting to be told. *Grins*

In all fairness, I sense his proposal was that the original fundraiser should have been "Buy City of Heroes." Even though 1) It's far too late for that and 2) Kickstarter is meant for new projects, not buying a decades old game and 3) What Darkfaith said.

I don't have much to add, so I'll expand on the sentiment. Even by the time we got to the Titans kickstarter, it was widely believed (almost accepted as fact by many) that there'd be no way TO buy City of Heroes, as stated, but even once that possibility become more .. well possible, there was the additional problem - a very strong chance we'd get a game but no save data from City of Heroes. So we'd all have to start over.

Which is fine. There's another project, a separate project, dedicated to doing that very thing. But it'll still be the old City of Heroes. It'll still be a 2004 game filled with older content and without the original minds behind that content. Which might be fine for some people. I might even try City of Heroes if it returns in a year or two.

But Titans has the potential to offer a lot MORE than that. I'd rather have new content, based on a new engine (not just one that looks better but one that tries to take everything to the next step), with potentially better archetypes.. set in a new world for us to explore and help shape.

I'd personally prefer that over reliving everything about City of Heroes other than the characters I'd built and leveled up there.

You're fundamentally misrepresenting 'all of us' by speaking as if the ONLY thing ANY of us want is the original City of Heroes, flaws and all. Some of us want more, as you'll see when you read over the forums, and a lot of people, myself included, are looking forward to seeing how they handle the problems with City of Heroes, and how they attempt to improve on the things that made City of Heroes special.

This isn't about rebuilding City of Heroes; this is about capturing that spirit and doing something entirely new and hopefully better with it.

Welcome to the forums, I hope you stay, but I also hope you come to realize the difference between the two, and what the goals of the Phoenix Project are with City of Titans.

This isn't simply a new world because we can't go back to the old one. That was originally part of it, but to some extent, this is building a new world with an old spirit, for the sake of building a new world with an old spirit, so to speak.

I hope that made sense.

Edit: I forgot to mention this, but we already know there are some people who hadn't played City of Heroes who did contribute to this project. I would suspect they're in the minority, but this does contradict the premise all the money was raised from City of Heroes fans.

(Though I would imagine most of it was.)

Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :)

Empyrean
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Jackal, I can't think of a

Jackal, I can't think of a way of saying this without sounding a little trollish, but, as the previous posts have pointed out, there's not much in your post that DOES make sense if you understand what is going on in relation to the topics you referenced.

As was said above, let the Devs know how you feel about things that they can actually address and then some good can come of it.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

syntaxerror37
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If this is the same Jackal

If this is the same Jackal from the CoH LJ community the devs should just go ahead and ban him now. the LJ Jackal was nothing but a troll.

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Capt Odee
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Jackal said, Why don't you

Jackal said, Why don't you just buy the source code for City of Heroes and turn the servers back on ??"

Because dealing with the Korean corporate heads is not that simple as it is in the States, or Europe. The Asians are very formal, and proper introductions are needed just to say hello.

Capt Odee, saving the city one click at a time.

Nyktos
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They have already tried to

They have already tried to secure the license from NCSoft many times along with some other companies formed from former CoH players.

To be brutally honest I don't really wish for them to bring CoH back at this point. I loved CoH but I will acknowledge that CoH had many issues with the engine that prevented the game from expanding in certain ways. Some features were even completely disabled....

And to be brutally honest to you jackal.... this is the first time I have seen you post and you sound like a forum troll. Saying that this new game will ''not be good'' on this board just seems uncalled for especially to some of the people who put money knowingly into it and the devs who are former CoH players. It just sounds like you are trying to incite a flame war. You have no way of knowing how the game will turn out so please avoid gracing us with your ''expert predictions'' please?

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Lin Chiao Feng
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Bleddyn wrote:
Bleddyn wrote:

To be brutally honest I don't really wish for them to bring CoH back at this point.

Definitely. It's been too long, and for it to be any more than a shadow of its former self, they'd have to get the dev team back together, and they'd have to remember where they were.

Not to mention that by now the hard drives are probably long gone. Maybe not the server ones, but almost certainly the dev workstation ones.

That said, there is a lot of value to be had in licensing/freeing the IP. All the derivative projects would be free to use the characters, background, story arcs, and whatever else they decided to use, instead of having to tiptoe around NCSoft's (idle) copyrights.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Fire Away
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I guess the value of the IP

I guess the value of the IP is in the eye of the beholder. But at least one derivative has said thanks but no thanks. And IMHO they are doing the right thing. Is it really worth months of bi-cultural "devil in the details" negotiations, the better part of a million bucks and who knows how many hours of "reverse" engineering? Well, it's clear at least some people think so elsewise they would not be doing it... I am just not one of them.

Let's take the case where Paragon City returns in all its glory running on the same engine as CoT complete with "crossover" potential. Sounds great right? But you know what you will really wind up with? A novelty. Something very similar to what CoH had with Praetoria. A fragmented pocket of players in a vast wasteland. It really is time to let it go.

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Sometimes, I just kinda let

Sometimes, I just kinda let my mind wander, and just came up with a brain fart.. that some NCSoft heads saw some game company had $600,000 and they wanted a piece of the pie.

And another brain fart happened.. thought that there was a rise in attacks wanting MWM to further go after acquiring the CoH IP Again.. which i interpreted as talks broke down with Nate and those NCSoft heads? NCSoft heads got greedy in their request?.. and Nate wouldn't Deal.

Well, this is all conspiracy like brain fart thinking I sometimes come up with... so, just ignore me. ;)

But, from now on, when I see MWM being attacked to further continue after the CoH IP, i'll just imagine NCSoft sending a henchman to the forums here, or wherever, to rile the MWM supporters.. with posts like this one. :D

So, i'm good.

Ahh.. maybe I should stop watching so many South Korean dramas. :<
Makes me brain fart like this. ;)

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I agree with most everything

I agree with most everything stated above. I love CoH still. I miss my characters and the game and the various systems. But the possibility here is that we have a game built by people who know everything that they'd wished could have been changed about CoH and improve the things that made it great and bring everything else up to the here and now. The possibility for greatness with a fresh slate here is amazing and I can't wait to see what comes out. CoH is amazing but I'd rather see what the next step can be from people who love the game that came before.

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Nicely put, In-Betweener.

Nicely put, In-Betweener.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Or to put it another way ...

Or to put it another way ... even Paragon Studios wanted to move on to City of Heroes 2 ...


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Maddie agrees with that

Maddie agrees with that because there was alot of flaws in COH but it was a Great game to have lots of fun and kill time but I myself as an avid player of the game was expecting lots more in based of content seeing how it was suppose to be like a CGI comic book but instead of reading the story "We became the characters of OUR own individual story with is kind of cool" although having the game go free to play in Maddie's opinion is what caused City of Heroes downfall in the first place and tank because nobody except for a select few myself included still paid the monthly subscriptions and the one major flaw that she saw was when you went free to play the powers you earned as a subscriber you got to keep as a free to play which is wrong in a sense the powers you had as a paid player should have got taken when you went free to play but it did majority of the content that were for subscribers only was allowed to free to play as well which is TOTALLY UNFAIR to the people that paid the monthly/annual subscriptions

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Or the simple reason of, we

Or the simple reason of, we put our money down on the KS for the new game, and not to buy the CoH source code?

Of course, for a lot of us, this could be a risk of loved CoH vs Will we love CoT. :p But I still wouldn't want the money I put in for the KS to be used for something else.

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This game (CoT) is already a

This game (CoT) is already a living thing! I'm excited about it, even though I miss CoH, because it has incredible potential and is wide open, made by fans, for fans and new fans, and already has a massive effort behind it. I would seriously dislike to see my hard-earned (seriously) KS money go for the old game, which was near its lifespan anyway. (CoH2 was definitely around the corner. Once you've topped yourself and brought in the final act of a game/story then continuing to develop it or reiterate the same old same old, you've lost, IMO.)

That said, City of Titans is something different from City of Heroes, fresh, full of possibilities that were either dreamed or undreamed of in City of Heroes, and is juicily, giftedly alive for me and many others, especially people who never even heard of CoH. Though I was there from May 2004 till the bitter end, subscribing till they suspended it, I kept wanting to feel something ...different. Now there is that chance, with the elán and smarts of both a new, dedicated crew and engine. I want to see this become. I want to dance with it!

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Samuel Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain)

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Samuel Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain)

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I think it has been explained

I think it has been explained before that Nate being the President of MWM has nothing to do with him stepping up to be on the team negotiating with NCSoft for CoX IP. It would be a potential problem (a huge morality one and an even worse legal one) if your contributions went to anything other than MWM and CoT. Nate is the kind of person who sees what should be done and wants to get to work on it. It's the same qualities that led him to be a founding member of MWM as well as the "Hail Mary" team. Both groups want the best for you (and all CoX fans) and he naturally was drawn to both for that reason. It just looks shady for a hot second if you don't know the whole story.

Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer

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There is no way that MWM

There is no way that MWM should use it's KS money to bargain for the old IP. That being said; If someone close to MWM could license the old IP, all I'd want to see incorporated is the opportunity to visit new versions of the original game zones and to be able to interact with the old NPCs.

The original game engine is way too old and clunky to be brought back to life. Recreate some of the scenery of the old game? Yes. Restart the old game? No

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revolution
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AFAIK there are no plans to

AFAIK there are no plans to include CoX IP at all in CoT. The IP buy is for the community to put up servers as well as the other successor that is redesigning CoX (can't remember the exact name...AP something). Neither us nor Valiance have any use of the IP per se. We already have our games set up lore-wise and are moving further down the line than CoX were CoX was.

Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer

Nyx Nought Nothing
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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

AFAIK there are no plans to include CoX IP at all in CoT. The IP buy is for the community to put up servers as well as the other successor that is redesigning CoX (can't remember the exact name...AP something). Neither us nor Valiance have any use of the IP per se. We already have our games set up lore-wise and are moving further down the line than CoX were CoX was.

Pretty sure Nate Downes and multiple others have explicitly and repeatedly stated that CoT will not use CoX IP. Which i'm fine with, but i do almost wish they would so that some of Primal Earth's characters could make guest appearances. Either way i'm eagerly awaiting further updates on THIS project. i would love to see classic CoH revived in the interim, but City of Titans is shaping up very nicely as well.

In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

On the CoH forums at the end i went by the name Schismatrix.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

revolution
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I think there is definitely

I think there is definitely room for both if not every successor being made now. It wouldn't be a bad thing to at least mention our badly missed heroes and villains freely though.

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Hmm... This thread just

Hmm... This thread just gave me a crazy thought. Maybe I'll use the UGC tools to make a story arc where my old main character is a goddess worshiped by a technoutopian steampunk cult of gadgeteers!

Sorry. Schizophrenia moment there. It's gone now.

What was the topic? Oh, right, CoX vs. CoT.

I did not participate in the CoT Kickstarter. It was too soon and I was not certain which of the many spin off teams (if any) was organized enough to actually pull off making a new game. I did know that there was no way under heaven anyone would be allowed to remake CoH using the same signature NPCs, map locations, enemy groups, etc. Intellectual property rights laws are no joking matter in the modern world and NC Soft is very vigilant about protecting their IPs.

I have been watching everyone and waiting. Valiant Online has an interesting concept and has made some good progress. What I have seen coming out of CoT speaks of a patient pursuit of perfection, which means the final product will either be genre-changing or will never make it into beta. I'm hoping for genre-changing. Atlas Park Revival has gone deathly silent either because they are waiting for Nate's negotiations to end or because they have given up and are unwilling to admit defeat. Time will tell which it is. Heroes and Villains has chosen what is possibly the easiest route to development and is depending heavily on art contributions from outside the team. I get the feeling that if they succeed their game will be the easiest to learn and play and will emphasize a great deal of charm rather than grit, which could be a very good thing.

Assuming everyone succeeds (statistical impossibility, but I do believe in miracles!), in another 18 to 24 months there will be four more superhero games to experiment with, each with a unique interpretation of what made CoX so very unforgettable. It's quite exciting, but the wait is absolutely killing me.

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revolution
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I don't know the APR team

I don't know the APR team (thanks for reminding me, BTW), but I'd be willing to bet they are waiting for the IP negotiations since they are the only ones that have a huge stake in them ATM.

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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

I don't know the APR team (thanks for reminding me, BTW), but I'd be willing to bet they are waiting for the IP negotiations since they are the only ones that have a huge stake in them ATM.

Yeah - that's what I suspect as well. They are likely still working on the maps in the background, but it is probably in their best interests to stay quiet about it - at least until we have more news on the negotiations.

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I've made my position on this

I've made my position on this pretty clear already and I do not want to beat it into the ground but I would like to mention the concept of business case versus player case in one final post on this whole topic. First the player case. After, say a three to four year drought, the players could be headed for a Renaissance in possible superhero MMO choices. I'll even concede the point (although it's been far from proven) that there is "room" for multiple superhero options. So in the near term there may be cause for players looking for options to celebrate (if multiple concepts make it off the ground).

The business case as it applies MWM is quite another matter (and forgive the following clichés, it's how this old guy thinks). First, it isn't going to take long for the cream to rise to the top in terms player population distribution and thus revenue in this market . But getting off to a good start is going to be vitally important. If CoT is to be "genre-changing" (and I've opened my wallet and bet money that they will be) they are going to sooner rather than later need to take measures that make them a successful company. Successful companies demonstrate a passion and a dedication, from the president on down, to THEIR product. They plow new ground and shed the ties that bind them to sentimental older (unsuccessful) concepts. They view competition as "taking food off the table" for their employees. They are tireless and relentless in this regard shunning all other distractions and resisting doing things for the sake of nostalgia.

I submit the business case for the president and others of MWM to be involved in months negotiations with NCSoft for anything associated with CoH is very weak (i.e. dropping the "spiritual" from spiritual successor, recycling older CoH concepts). In reality this is spending a lot of time and effort to resurrect a competitor in an attempt to recreate the good old days. It's also a myth in terms of public perception that you can separate the president of an outfit with his company. As an investor in CoT I find this activity mostly detrimental.

I do not know Mr Downes personally. From his posts in the forums he seems like an articulate and a nice enough fellow... in all honesty probably a lot nicer than yours truly. Seems like a wonderful person to share a couple of adult beverages with on a lazy Sunday afternoon. I also think that if MWM wants to be known as a rag-tag group of volunteers forever committed to preserving the memory of something in the past then that is ok too. But that is not how CoT was sold on Kickstarter. It's my understanding that the goal is for MWM to be a profitable enterprise and for CoT to leverage technology to appeal to wide spectrum of potential superhero MMO players. That market is largely composed of people who probably never heard of CoH. IMHO two things need to happen for resounding success (1) " The Product" While not forgetting our roots and the spirit of the past, there needs to be a clean break between CoH and CoT. and (2) "The Business" MWM needs to demonstrate it has what it takes to be a profitable company in a business sense. So far neither of these things have occurred... in fact it's been quite the opposite... and that concerns me.

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

As an investor in CoT I find this activity mostly detrimental.

You are not an investor - you are a kickstarter backer - there is a BIG difference. You have no guarantees and they owe you nothing other than the attempt to make this game.

You are also either misunderstanding or purposefully misconstruing the reality of the negotiations. If I understand correctly - the negotiations involve a few emails sent every few months - not exactly a huge distraction - it's not like he's hopping on a learjet every week to engage in serious face-to-face meetings halfway across the world. It's also not affecting the development of this game in any way as the writers, animators, designers, etc. are not building the game with CoH IP in mind.

It's alright to have concerns about a product you would like to see be produce, but at least base them in reality. As far as I can tell you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

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There was recently a

There was recently a discussion around a, well, not exactly an anti-kickstarter article, but definitely kickstarter-skeptical article in the new Massively Overpowered (and they did not miss the irony that they are currently doing a Kickstarter). The author was couching his argument in the premise that people thought they were making an investment but were in fact making a bet.

All I could think was that no matter how any individual wants to think of it, they are in fact a "backer", and their contribution mechanically works much more like a donation than anything else.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I don't really see a lot of

I don't really see a lot of difference between "backer" and "investor" in a start-up enterprise (there are no guarantees that an investor is owed back anything either). But if it makes you feel better, please do substitute backer or even donator in the applicable sentence above. To me it's a trivial distinction. I also acknowledge that my contribution to kickstarter offers me no "power" on what Mr Downes (or anyone else chooses to do). Where we obviously disagree is on the impact of the president of a company pulling in two very different directions at the same and the potential consequences. We have already seen in this thread and several others the type of confusion that results. I acknowledge I come from the school of thought where even the perception of doing something shady is to be avoided. The amount of time/effort involved is not all that important. What is important is the community divide that will result if both efforts (CoT and CoH revival) somehow succeed and those who cannot afford to or choose not to play both games. It's a divide that could have been avoided... if not for the pursuits of one man. If CoH had not have closed I doubt there would be even a thought of CoT. Likewise, if CoH returns it is naïve to think there will be zero impact on CoT.

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I, too, have expressed my

I, too, have expressed my concerns on this subject. While I don't agree with 100% of what Fire Away is saying, I think it's certainly a legitimate set of worries.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Empyrean
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I agree that Fire Away's

I agree that Fire Away's concerns are perfectly valid. I don't personally share most of them, but they are valid and well stated. But I do have to submit this from the Business English Dictionary:

investor- noun [C] /ɪnˈvestər/ FINANCE> a person, organization, or country that puts money into something in order to make a profit or receive interest.

backer- noun [C] /ˈbækər/ FINANCE> a person or company that provides support for something or someone, especially financial support.

There is a difference, and it isn't trivial.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

There is a difference, and it isn't trivial.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point was that the distinction is trivial in relation to the points he was making. I.e. the concerns are valid whether we are investors or backers.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
There is a difference, and it isn't trivial.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point was that the distinction is trivial in relation to the points he was making. I.e. the concerns are valid whether we are investors or backers.

Ah, I stand corrected. The distinction itself isn't trivial on it's own, but in context to his specific points it also isn't very important.

Carry on, I'm not the droid you're looking for :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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There are a couple of points

There are a couple of points I feel that need to be stated.

Nate was in the right place at the right time where he could act as a liaison between NCSoft and APR.
This is on his own time using no resources from Missing Worlds Media or CoT (other than his time which is voluntary to Missing Worlds Media).

If negotiations are successful, Nate backs away.
Hopefully then, the IP for CoH goes into a trust (so that it can't be taken away again).

If APR gets up and running a couple of interesting opportunities arise.
Missing Worlds Media can lease assets from APR - of particular interest are costume pieces but other things like lore can be used as well.
APR can also end up using assets made for CoT which financially benefits both APR and Missing Worlds Media. APR saves production time, Missing Worlds is reimbursed by APR.

Are there potential problems with players being split between multiple successful projects? Yes. However I believe it speaks volumes about Nate in that knowing the risks he stepped up because he believes its the right thing to do. It also says a lot about his faith in the eventual success of CoT.


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- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
revolution
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You could say it is more a

You could say it is more a point concerning Valiance Online and Heroes and Villains. Both projects are much more directly competitive as new super-hero MMOs and both have our support and good wishes. APR may take some of our audience away for good, but we believe that a completely new game will be of great interest to the community. There will be a community split (along with a lot of crossover) if all of the successors make it. MWM is aiming for something different than the rest in feel, style and gameplay and we really think it is the best of the bunch. People want to play CoX again. APR can let them if it makes it. I think those same people will want to play CoT not to mention the new players that will come along.

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I know I should not be

I know I should not be jumping in like this...but here I go anyway.

There are a couple of assumptions in the replies posted since my last one that really must be addressed:

1. The superhero MMO niche is finite
2. The superhero MMO niche is neither growing nor shrinking

If it were not for the huge, unexpected success of CoH/CoV (Issues 1-12), there never would have been either a Marvel Heroes or a DC Universe Online. Jack Emmert created this market niche out of thin air. It is largely due to the huge success of CoH/CoV that Marvel began making huge investments in movies, DC was forced to do the same in order to stay relevant, and we now have Arrow and Flash on television. Jack Emmert's vision created a wonderful, glorious, incredibly entertaining revival in what was a rapidly dying genre. The entire cultural concept of superheroes was on life support and dying rapidly in the face of modern neo-humanist cynicism that has dominated Western culture since 1968, and grew in power after 9/11.

Thank-you, Jack Emmert for saving superheroes and supervillains from following Enki and Abzu into the oblivion of human forgetfulness!

Since this market is still a relatively new market, with young people coming into it every single year, I am disinclined to write it off as either finite in size or limited in potential. We don't know yet what kind of success is possible because the online virtual reality that created the market was killed at least two years too soon. There is no way to guess what might have happened with continued availability, expanded content, a newer version of the game engine, and a renewed marketing push. We will never know.

Arrow and Flash have enjoyed very good success. Their strongest competition is each other. The last couple of Batman movies did not do as well as expected, but a delusional med school drop out is at least partly to blame for that. The most recent Spiderman movie also performed below expectations, but myself, I think that's because they tried to make Peter Parker into something he never was: a fashionable NY YUPPIE. Big mistake, I think. Very big mistake. Hollywood has lost the pulse of America and the dismal reception of summer blockbusters five years in a row is very clear evidence of this.

Big Hero 6 has performed extremely well in cinemas. Megamind was a huge success, both of them! The Incredibles DVD is still selling at mid-level retail price and has not fallen into the discount bins yet. Even though Kick-Ass did far better than I expected, it still performed far below what the studio hoped for. Myself, I think this demonstrates that bloody, violent, gothic superhero satire movies are not what the American audience is looking for. The public still prefers old school superheroes.

All three teams that are actively developing superhero MMORPGs are aiming at this market: the old school superhero market. I am of the firm belief this market is much larger than anyone in either New York or Hollywood suspects. People still want to believe that good guys are good, bad guys are bad, and the good guys win in the end. Naturally CoT has a three point alignment system, but this is a strength. The three point alignment system means it has the potential to enjoy strong appeal among fans of both old school and new school superheroes and supervillains. With the right marketing campaign, it is entirely possible that CoT will surpass the success of CoH/CoV. If it does, there is no doubt in my mind that it will pull all of the other superhero themed MMOs along with it.

CoT has the potential to be a market leader. That potential is still unrealized and is going to depend on whether or not they can pull off the design themes outlined in their current PR materials. Three things have got to be done well if they are going to realize their potential:

1. A fully realized, convincing virtual world that appeals to roleplayers, min/max enthusiasts, and large-scale raid fans equally well
2. An effective 3-point alignment system that is both clear in its intent and easily controlled by the players
3. A full suite of powerful, simple to use tools for creating UGC

All three of these are MWM's clearly stated goals. If they can pull them off, then this game has the potential to expand the market by bringing in people who don't normally play MMORPG style games. None of the other teams have set goals anywhere near this ambitious. The sheer audacity of a handful of former players making such promises is what kept me from participating in the Kickstarter. Those are huge goals that fully staffed game studios have been unwilling to tackle. Everyone in this market has spent the past decade throwing all of their eggs into the same basket: fast/zero character progression, PvP as endgame or as the only game.

Don't misunderstand me. I believe there is a huge, untapped market for a narrative-driven virtual world with a dynamic alignment system, and strong UGC tools. Look at the success of Minecraft. Second Life is now developing Second Life 2, which should be out in 2016. Secret World has enjoyed very good success with their narrative-driven design, even though they lack a strong suite of UGC tools or an expansive virtual world. Despite the recent success of League of Legends, I don't believe Battle Arenas are the future of online gaming. That market will always be strong, but I think the current dominant position it enjoys is the result of a lack of well-made narrative-driven online games, not an indication that the only way online gamers want to play is orchestrated PvP matches with rankings and titles.

But that's just me. I'm the odd man out among those who follow this market. So maybe I'm wrong. I hope not. Because in all honesty, if I am, then our future as a species does not look good at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

It is largely due to the huge success of CoH/CoV that Marvel began making huge investments in movies

Heh um no - CoX (a semi-obscure video game which a small percentage of the moviegoing audience had ever even HEARD about, let alone played) had NOTHING to do with Marvel's movie budgets - that was the first Blade (1998) cracking open the door, and then the X-Men (2000) and Raimi Spiderman (2002) movies making serious bank. If anything it was the other way around - the success of those movies probably made CoX what it was.

Though you are correct in that the appetite for some forms of supers media seems to be increasing - modern comic book movies are some of the biggest grossing in history, they have an ever-increasing presence on TV, etc. I think there is room for a few more Supers games - as long as they are well-made (which it seems CoT may be) and advertised to get eyeballs in those other markets on the game.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Heh um no - CoX (a semi-obscure video game which a small percentage of the moviegoing audience had ever even HEARD about, let alone played) had NOTHING to do with Marvel's movie budgets - that was the first Blade (1998) cracking open the door, and then the X-Men (2000) and Raimi Spiderman (2002) movies making serious bank.

My sentiments too. :)

And i hope Warcraft just does Ok.. not great! ;)
We cant loose too many players to WoW. ;D

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0.o

0.o

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Heh um no - CoX (a semi-obscure video game which a small percentage of the moviegoing audience had ever even HEARD about, let alone played) had NOTHING to do with Marvel's movie budgets - that was the first Blade (1998) cracking open the door, and then the X-Men (2000) and Raimi Spiderman (2002) movies making serious bank.
My sentiments too. :)
And i hope Warcraft just does Ok.. not great! ;)
We cant loose too many players to WoW. ;D

And I hope it does awesome! While I don't play it (no one to play it with) when I did, I didn't find it that bad. :p

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Why bother buying the ip

Why bother buying the ip after literally 3 years into the project and there isn't even a working prototype for a game we have been at this since 2/1/13 when city of heroes closed it's door on 11/30/2012

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At this point, the greatest

At this point, the greatest benefit I see for MWM being able to license the IP is that it would provide access to all of CoH's costume options and being able to freely reference, or even use, elements from CoH lore and missions. E.g. It would allow MWM to provide access to the Vanguard uniforms, or something that looks very much like them, even if there is no faction called "Vanguard" in the game.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

At this point, the greatest benefit I see for MWM being able to license the IP is that it would provide access to all of CoH's costume options and being able to freely reference, or even use, elements from CoH lore and missions. E.g. It would allow MWM to provide access to the Vanguard uniforms, or something that looks very much like them, even if there is no faction called "Vanguard" in the game.

The software technology used to create and run the original CoH is now so antiquated compared to what MWM's using for CoT that there's no point trying to license/buy any CoH "source code" and/or binary data from NCsoft. Even if MWM suddenly had access to all of it they would have to spend so much time/effort re-engineering it that it would far more trouble than it'd be worth.

Where having some kind of license agreement from NCsoft might still be useful to MWM is being able to "borrow" name/lore/costume designs from CoH so that those things could be directly used in CoT without the theoretical threat of getting sued by NCsoft. Part of what's making MWM efforts harder is that they are having to make sure they don't "copy" CoH too closely lest they open themselves up for lawsuit.

The good news for us is that eventually MWM will have a fully functional game based on their own lore/designs. Sure having access to the CoH-based stuff would have been nice to start with, but since MWM was effectively forced to "reimagine" the entire game on their own they will ultimately not need to pay NCsoft a dime for anything.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012