So, the suggestion is that funds raised for one project should be misused to fund a different project.

I believe this is the first time, outside of a movie, that I've seen someone declare that [i]not[/i] committing a crime "makes no sense".

Jackal, I can't think of a way of saying this without sounding a little trollish, but, as the previous posts have pointed out, there's not much in your post that DOES make sense if you understand what is going on in relation to the topics you referenced.

As was said above, let the Devs know how you feel about things that they can actually address and then some good can come of it.

Jackal said, Why don't you just buy the source code for City of Heroes and turn the servers back on ??"

Because dealing with the Korean corporate heads is not that simple as it is in the States, or Europe. The Asians are very formal, and proper introductions are needed just to say hello.

Bleddyn wrote:

To be brutally honest I don't really wish for them to bring CoH back at this point.

Definitely. It's been too long, and for it to be any more than a shadow of its former self, they'd have to get the dev team back together, and they'd have to remember where they were.

Not to mention that by now the hard drives are probably long gone. Maybe not the server ones, but almost certainly the dev workstation ones.

That said, there is a [i]lot[/i] of value to be had in licensing/freeing the IP. All the derivative projects would be free to use the characters, background, story arcs, and whatever else they decided to use, instead of having to tiptoe around NCSoft's (idle) copyrights.

Sometimes, I just kinda let my mind wander, and just came up with a brain fart.. that some NCSoft heads saw some game company had $600,000 and they wanted a piece of the pie.

And another brain fart happened.. thought that there was a rise in attacks wanting MWM to further go after acquiring the CoH IP Again.. which i interpreted as talks broke down with Nate and those NCSoft heads? NCSoft heads got greedy in their request?.. and Nate wouldn't Deal.

Well, this is all conspiracy like brain fart thinking I sometimes come up with... so, just ignore me. ;)

But, from now on, when I see MWM being attacked to further continue after the CoH IP, i'll just imagine NCSoft sending a henchman to the forums here, or wherever, to rile the MWM supporters.. with posts like this one. :D

So, i'm good.

Ahh.. maybe I should stop watching so many South Korean dramas. :<
Makes me brain fart like this. ;)

Nicely put, In-Betweener.

Maddie agrees with that because there was alot of flaws in COH but it was a Great game to have lots of fun and kill time but I myself as an avid player of the game was expecting lots more in based of content seeing how it was suppose to be like a CGI comic book but instead of reading the story "We became the characters of OUR own individual story with is kind of cool" although having the game go free to play in Maddie's opinion is what caused City of Heroes downfall in the first place and tank because nobody except for a select few myself included still paid the monthly subscriptions and the one major flaw that she saw was when you went free to play the powers you earned as a subscriber you got to keep as a free to play which is wrong in a sense the powers you had as a paid player should have got taken when you went free to play but it did majority of the content that were for subscribers only was allowed to free to play as well which is TOTALLY UNFAIR to the people that paid the monthly/annual subscriptions

This game (CoT) is already a living thing! I'm excited about it, even though I miss CoH, because it has incredible potential and is wide open, made by fans, for fans and new fans, and already has a massive effort behind it. I would seriously dislike to see my hard-earned (seriously) KS money go for the old game, which was near its lifespan anyway. (CoH2 was definitely around the corner. Once you've topped yourself and brought in the final act of a game/story then continuing to develop it or reiterate the same old same old, you've lost, IMO.)

That said, City of Titans is something different from City of Heroes, fresh, full of possibilities that were either dreamed or undreamed of in City of Heroes, and is juicily, giftedly alive for me and many others, especially people who never even heard of CoH. Though I was there from May 2004 till the bitter end, subscribing till they suspended it, I kept wanting to feel something ...different. Now there is that chance, with the elán and smarts of both a new, dedicated crew and engine. I want to see this become. I want to dance with it!

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Samuel Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain)

http://jaybezz.tumblr.com/post/112319171360/cosplay-gamers-progression-of-video-game-graphics

AFAIK there are no plans to include CoX IP at all in CoT. The IP buy is for the community to put up servers as well as the other successor that is redesigning CoX (can't remember the exact name...AP something). Neither us nor Valiance have any use of the IP per se. We already have our games set up lore-wise and are moving further down the line than CoX were CoX was.

I think there is definitely room for both if not every successor being made now. It wouldn't be a bad thing to at least mention our badly missed heroes and villains freely though.

I don't know the APR team (thanks for reminding me, BTW), but I'd be willing to bet they are waiting for the IP negotiations since they are the only ones that have a huge stake in them ATM.

I've made my position on this pretty clear already and I do not want to beat it into the ground but I would like to mention the concept of business case versus player case in one final post on this whole topic. First the player case. After, say a three to four year drought, the players could be headed for a Renaissance in possible superhero MMO choices. I'll even concede the point (although it's been far from proven) that there is "room" for multiple superhero options. So in the near term there may be cause for players looking for options to celebrate (if multiple concepts make it off the ground).

The business case as it applies MWM is quite another matter (and forgive the following clichés, it's how this old guy thinks). First, it isn't going to take long for the cream to rise to the top in terms player population distribution and thus revenue in this market . But getting off to a good start is going to be vitally important. If CoT is to be "genre-changing" (and I've opened my wallet and bet money that they will be) they are going to sooner rather than later need to take measures that make them a successful company. Successful companies demonstrate a passion and a dedication, from the president on down, to THEIR product. They plow new ground and shed the ties that bind them to sentimental older (unsuccessful) concepts. They view competition as "taking food off the table" for their employees. They are tireless and relentless in this regard shunning all other distractions and resisting doing things for the sake of nostalgia.

I submit the business case for the president and others of MWM to be involved in months negotiations with NCSoft for anything associated with CoH is very weak (i.e. dropping the "spiritual" from spiritual successor, recycling older CoH concepts). In reality this is spending a lot of time and effort to resurrect a competitor in an attempt to recreate the good old days. It's also a myth in terms of public perception that you can separate the president of an outfit with his company. As an investor in CoT I find this activity mostly detrimental.

I do not know Mr Downes personally. From his posts in the forums he seems like an articulate and a nice enough fellow... in all honesty probably a lot nicer than yours truly. Seems like a wonderful person to share a couple of adult beverages with on a lazy Sunday afternoon. I also think that if MWM wants to be known as a rag-tag group of volunteers forever committed to preserving the memory of something in the past then that is ok too. But that is not how CoT was sold on Kickstarter. It's my understanding that the goal is for MWM to be a profitable enterprise and for CoT to leverage technology to appeal to wide spectrum of potential superhero MMO players. That market is largely composed of people who probably never heard of CoH. IMHO two things need to happen for resounding success (1) " The Product" While not forgetting our roots and the spirit of the past, there needs to be a clean break between CoH and CoT. and (2) "The Business" MWM needs to demonstrate it has what it takes to be a profitable company in a business sense. So far neither of these things have occurred... in fact it's been quite the opposite... and that concerns me.

There was recently a discussion around a, well, not exactly an anti-kickstarter article, but definitely kickstarter-skeptical article in the new Massively Overpowered (and they did not miss the irony that they are currently doing a Kickstarter). The author was couching his argument in the premise that people thought they were making an investment but were in fact making a bet.

All I could think was that no matter how any individual wants to think of it, they are in fact a "backer", and their contribution mechanically works much more like a donation than anything else.

I, too, have expressed my concerns on this subject. While I don't agree with 100% of what Fire Away is saying, I think it's certainly a legitimate set of worries.

Empyrean wrote:

There is a difference, and it isn't trivial.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point was that the distinction is trivial in relation to the points he was making. I.e. the concerns are valid whether we are investors or backers.

There are a couple of points I feel that need to be stated.

Nate was in the right place at the right time where he could act as a liaison between NCSoft and APR.
This is on his own time using no resources from Missing Worlds Media or CoT (other than his time which is voluntary to Missing Worlds Media).

If negotiations are successful, Nate backs away.
Hopefully then, the IP for CoH goes into a trust (so that it can't be taken away again).

If APR gets up and running a couple of interesting opportunities arise.
Missing Worlds Media can lease assets from APR - of particular interest are costume pieces but other things like lore can be used as well.
APR can also end up using assets made for CoT which financially benefits both APR and Missing Worlds Media. APR saves production time, Missing Worlds is reimbursed by APR.

Are there potential problems with players being split between multiple successful projects? Yes. However I believe it speaks volumes about Nate in that knowing the risks he stepped up because he believes its the right thing to do. It also says a lot about his faith in the eventual success of CoT.

I know I should not be jumping in like this...but here I go anyway.

There are a couple of assumptions in the replies posted since my last one that really must be addressed:

1. The superhero MMO niche is finite
2. The superhero MMO niche is neither growing nor shrinking

If it were not for the huge, unexpected success of CoH/CoV (Issues 1-12), there never would have been either a Marvel Heroes or a DC Universe Online. Jack Emmert created this market niche out of thin air. It is largely due to the huge success of CoH/CoV that Marvel began making huge investments in movies, DC was forced to do the same in order to stay relevant, and we now have Arrow and Flash on television. Jack Emmert's vision created a wonderful, glorious, incredibly entertaining revival in what was a rapidly dying genre. The entire cultural concept of superheroes was on life support and dying rapidly in the face of modern neo-humanist cynicism that has dominated Western culture since 1968, and grew in power after 9/11.

Thank-you, Jack Emmert for saving superheroes and supervillains from following Enki and Abzu into the oblivion of human forgetfulness!

Since this market is still a relatively new market, with young people coming into it every single year, I am disinclined to write it off as either finite in size or limited in potential. We don't know yet what kind of success is possible because the online virtual reality that created the market was killed at least two years too soon. There is no way to guess what might have happened with continued availability, expanded content, a newer version of the game engine, and a renewed marketing push. We will never know.

Arrow and Flash have enjoyed very good success. Their strongest competition is each other. The last couple of Batman movies did not do as well as expected, but a delusional med school drop out is at least partly to blame for that. The most recent Spiderman movie also performed below expectations, but myself, I think that's because they tried to make Peter Parker into something he never was: a fashionable NY YUPPIE. Big mistake, I think. Very big mistake. Hollywood has lost the pulse of America and the dismal reception of summer blockbusters five years in a row is very clear evidence of this.

Big Hero 6 has performed extremely well in cinemas. Megamind was a huge success, both of them! The Incredibles DVD is still selling at mid-level retail price and has not fallen into the discount bins yet. Even though Kick-Ass did far better than I expected, it still performed far below what the studio hoped for. Myself, I think this demonstrates that bloody, violent, gothic superhero satire movies are not what the American audience is looking for. The public still prefers old school superheroes.

All three teams that are actively developing superhero MMORPGs are aiming at this market: the old school superhero market. I am of the firm belief this market is much larger than anyone in either New York or Hollywood suspects. People still want to believe that good guys are good, bad guys are bad, and the good guys win in the end. Naturally CoT has a three point alignment system, but this is a strength. The three point alignment system means it has the potential to enjoy strong appeal among fans of both old school and new school superheroes and supervillains. With the right marketing campaign, it is entirely possible that CoT will surpass the success of CoH/CoV. If it does, there is no doubt in my mind that it will pull all of the other superhero themed MMOs along with it.

CoT has the potential to be a market leader. That potential is still unrealized and is going to depend on whether or not they can pull off the design themes outlined in their current PR materials. Three things have got to be done well if they are going to realize their potential:

1. A fully realized, convincing virtual world that appeals to roleplayers, min/max enthusiasts, and large-scale raid fans equally well
2. An effective 3-point alignment system that is both clear in its intent and easily controlled by the players
3. A full suite of powerful, simple to use tools for creating UGC

All three of these are MWM's clearly stated goals. If they can pull them off, then this game has the potential to expand the market by bringing in people who don't normally play MMORPG style games. None of the other teams have set goals anywhere near this ambitious. The sheer audacity of a handful of former players making such promises is what kept me from participating in the Kickstarter. Those are huge goals that fully staffed game studios have been unwilling to tackle. Everyone in this market has spent the past decade throwing all of their eggs into the same basket: fast/zero character progression, PvP as endgame or as the only game.

Don't misunderstand me. I believe there is a huge, untapped market for a narrative-driven virtual world with a dynamic alignment system, and strong UGC tools. Look at the success of Minecraft. Second Life is now developing Second Life 2, which should be out in 2016. Secret World has enjoyed very good success with their narrative-driven design, even though they lack a strong suite of UGC tools or an expansive virtual world. Despite the recent success of League of Legends, I don't believe Battle Arenas are the future of online gaming. That market will always be strong, but I think the current dominant position it enjoys is the result of a lack of well-made narrative-driven online games, not an indication that the only way online gamers want to play is orchestrated PvP matches with rankings and titles.

But that's just me. I'm the odd man out among those who follow this market. So maybe I'm wrong. I hope not. Because in all honesty, if I am, then our future as a species does not look good at all.

Interdictor wrote:

Heh um no - CoX (a semi-obscure video game which a small percentage of the moviegoing audience had ever even HEARD about, let alone played) had NOTHING to do with Marvel's movie budgets - that was the first Blade (1998) cracking open the door, and then the X-Men (2000) and Raimi Spiderman (2002) movies making serious bank.

My sentiments too. :)

And i hope Warcraft just does Ok.. not great! ;)
We cant loose too many players to WoW. ;D

Izzy wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Heh um no - CoX (a semi-obscure video game which a small percentage of the moviegoing audience had ever even HEARD about, let alone played) had NOTHING to do with Marvel's movie budgets - that was the first Blade (1998) cracking open the door, and then the X-Men (2000) and Raimi Spiderman (2002) movies making serious bank.
My sentiments too. :)
And i hope Warcraft just does Ok.. not great! ;)
We cant loose too many players to WoW. ;D

And I hope it does awesome! While I don't play it (no one to play it with) when I did, I didn't find it that bad. :p

At this point, the greatest benefit I see for MWM being able to license the IP is that it would provide access to all of CoH's costume options and being able to freely reference, or even use, elements from CoH lore and missions. E.g. It would allow MWM to provide access to the Vanguard uniforms, or something that looks very much like them, even if there is no faction called "Vanguard" in the game.

jackal wrote:

5 years later with nothing more than a character model builder. [b]And some other cool stuff already shown. [/b]

So who was right? And who was wrong?

I stand by my original statement.

So did you just necro a 3 year old thread to say that?
Interesting ????

Star Citizen in their 8th year of development, your argument is invalid.