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I have one question.

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Luminara
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I have one question.

Will travel powers be "required", or will there be mathematically viable alternatives (similar to Hurdle in Co*) which dedicated players can utilize effectively?

syntaxerror37
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It has been said you are

It has been said you are getting a travel power for "free" in creation.

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^^ This. Therefore, there is

^^ This. Therefore, there is no percentage in not having one. You're not 'required' to take it, you just get one.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Luminara
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Not interested in a travel

Not interested in a travel power, free or earned through play. The question has yet to be answered. Will a travel power be "required", or will all areas be accessible without travel powers?

If they remember me, they know why I'm asking.

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Hmm, that I do not know. It

Hmm, that I do not know. It's clear that a travel power will be issued to you, you probably have to select one, but I don't think they'd make it so that you could not access All of the content, unless you used a travel power.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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It's a tricky question.

It's a tricky question.

I just watched Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men (awesome, if melodramatic), and at one point I realized that noone, not one single one, on the 8 hero team (plug for team size) had a travel power. They all got around on jets and motorcycles or whatnot. Yet, at the same, time most heroes in comics did/do have a special mode of movement and that is a classic comics thing.

So, if you're going to have it in a game, you don't want to make it irrelevant, but you might not want to make it mandatory.

The wicket is sticky.

I'd come down on mandatory over irrelevant, but the Luminous Duckling will have my balls in a sling for that.

One possible answer would be to have "mount" graphics options for all travel powers. Horse/Motorcycle for super speed, rocket boots/spring boots for super jump, jet pack/jet/jet bike for flight, etc.

Don't know the Fair Fowl, but my spidey sense is telling me that he/she won't be happy with that either.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

It's a tricky question.
I just watched Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men (awesome, if melodramatic), and at one point I realized that noone, not one single one, on the 8 hero team (plug for team size) had a travel power. They all got around on jets and motorcycles or whatnot. Yet, at the same, time most heroes in comics did/do have a special mode of movement and that is a classic comics thing.
So, if you're going to have it in a game, you don't want to make it irrelevant, but you might not want to make it mandatory.
The wicket is sticky.
I'd come down on mandatory over irrelevant, but the Luminous Duckling will have my balls in a sling for that.
One possible answer would be to have "mount" graphics options for all travel powers. Horse/Motorcycle for super speed, rocket boots/spring boots for super jump, jet pack/jet/jet bike for flight, etc.
Don't know the Fair Fowl, but my spidey sense is telling me that he/she won't be happy with that either.

Travel powers were, at one point, believed to be mandatory (by players) in CoH. There'd already been posts on the forums detailing the math underlying movement rates and Fitness pool powers which improved movement and how to equal or exceed travel power speeds without actually using a travel power, but few people cared or paid attention.

I walked on the tops of the War Walls. I scaled the highest skyscrapers in Steel Canyon. I ran the gauntlet in the Shadow Shard. I kept up with the speed freaks in TFs and SFs and I was rarely the last one to arrive at the waypoint. And I posted about my exploits, backed by math and analysis of game mechanics, just as I posted about TA and Archery, until there was an accord on travel powers being more frill and pomp than necessity.

So, no, I wouldn't be satisfied with alternative "mount" graphics for travel powers. The way they've described their approach to power design, that's likely the direction they're headed, but considering the roots and origin of this project, and the development team being former Co* players, freedom to choose one's character's abilities and limitations should be high on the priority list. Saddling players with travel powers which don't fit their characters' backgrounds or preferred play style would be an affront to everything they're trying to recreate.

You can keep your balls. My freezer's full. For now. :p

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From what has been said the

From what has been said the plan is for there to be an alternative non-combat power set ability that included things like sight though walls, astral projection, controlling enemies.. Most of these seem like surveillance powers but much like Travel Powers there has been talk about these powers having a combat capabilities (though not enough to be completely factors of combat).

I don't see why these abilities can't be given the same kind of weight as travel powers. There is a question in my mind if players would accept choosing one or the other but to me at least it seems a fair/weighted choice.

I for one do not foresee myself using a travel power (But rocket boot wedged heels are awesome). I never play solo anyhow. I'll just wait for the next player with "group flight" to carry me around out of combat.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Options are always best if

Options are always best if possible, so travel powers being optional if possible would be best. And of course mandatory but free would be better than just mandatory. I always thought about having a Swift/Hurdle + Sprint\CJ traveling hero, just never got around to it.

I will say this, after CO, I do feel like free travel powers was NOT as free feeling to me as knowing there was the possibility of being able to get by without one in CoH, even with vehicles. It's always nice not being in set rails.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

It has been said you are getting a travel power for "free" in creation.

Luminara wrote:

Saddling players with travel powers which don't fit their characters' backgrounds or preferred play style would be an affront to everything they're trying to recreate.

Even though we may be getting a free travel power choice during creation I think it's fair to note that what qualifies as a "travel power" might be quite a bit different than just the original superpowered based ones we got in CoH.

We'll probably still get the core comicbook versions to choose from (like Fly and Superspeed) but remember CoH eventually offered us other things like the Rocket Board, Flying Carpet and Coyote travel powers. Also we may get something like CO's "Acrobatics" or "Parkour" which would let Nautual type chracters move around in ways that don't have to be tied directly to overt "superpowers". Who knows, maybe we'll even get something like JayBezz's "rocket boot wedge heels" as a travel power option.

Also there's always the obvious - perhaps one of the choices we'll have for this at character creation is "None". *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

syntaxerror37
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I have a question for you

I have a question for you Luminara, what do you define as a travel power? From my point of view, swift, hurdle, and sprint were all travel powers in CoH. From what you have posted I assume you got yourself through slotting and/or set bonuses up to a decent amount of speed. You may not have had flight, super speed, super jump, or teleport, but you had travel powers. Is your problem with travel powers purely thematic? I would wager that with the right base and animation you can probably get the included travel power to look less super. Or, you can just leave it off and get around in other ways.

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Maybe Luminara didnt like

Maybe Luminara didnt like that SuperSpeed was glowing "Even" while s/he was standing still. :(

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Maybe Luminara didnt like that SuperSpeed was glowing "Even" while s/he was standing still.

Yeah CoH did link certain audio and visual effects to certain powers that did make them "annoying" if they didn't match your overall character concept. I can only assume CoT will allow much more customization in that regard.

Despite that I can sort of see Luminara's point here - some character concepts just don't really lend themselves to traditional superpowered-based travel powers. I simply suspect that for a group of Devs who seem well aware of the pitfalls of locking players into things they don't want/like that we'll have plenty of alternatives that make sense. Even if Luminara doesn't like any of the choices we'll get with the "free" travel power I doubt we'll be forced to actually use it if we don't want to.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Consider the 7 travel powers

Consider the 7 travel powers a moment:
Superspeed
Superjump
Flight
Teleport
Swinging
Digging
Acrobatics

If you don't want a super-powered travel power, pick Acrobatics. You can run faster than a normal person, but do not travel beyond human capability. You can jump higher than a normal person, but again, not past human capability. Think someone with Ninja Run or who has their Fitness pool maxed out. Different themes can give you Parkour-like movement, or just a basic runner, or fancier movements like you find in Attack on Titan. You *can* improve it to climb walls a la Spiderman or Assassins Creed, but you can choose not to as well.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Consider the 7 travel powers a moment:
Superspeed
Superjump
Flight
Teleport
Swinging
Digging
Acrobatics
If you don't want a super-powered travel power, pick Acrobatics. You can run faster than a normal person, but do not travel beyond human capability. You can jump higher than a normal person, but again, not past human capability. Think someone with Ninja Run or who has their Fitness pool maxed out. Different themes can give you Parkour-like movement, or just a basic runner, or fancier movements like you find in Attack on Titan. You *can* improve it to climb walls a la Spiderman or Assassins Creed, but you can choose not to as well.

Will there also be equivalents to CoH's Sprint and Walk that anyone can use? Will Acrobatics include a "theme" (basic runner?) that essentially mimics old-school Sprint?

I understand the idea that if you don't want a "full-blown" travel power you could select something like Acrobatics and just not use it. But even in the realm of normal human movement (that doesn't involve "powers") it would still be useful to have the choice to switch between Sprint, Default Speed and Walk regardless if you ever use a faster travel power or not.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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It's odd, but it sound like

It's odd, but it sound like what Luminara wants is a deliberately "human-normal" character without any special movement powers. I say it's odd, because either you'll spend forever getting to combat, or you'll annoy everyone asking for teleports every time people want to get where they're going. Or to put it another way...

(Note: Locations made up out of whole cloth because I don't know the map.)

===

"George! Trouble downtown! Tyche Stadium!"

George Petral growled and pulled open his locker. Three minutes of frantic suiting up, and he dashed out the window and down the fire escape. He was still running down the alleyway as he laced cloth around his fingers, hands and wrists.

Overhead, Powerdive and Shadowgirl roared past. "Need a lift?"

George waved his hand. "Nah! I've got this!" He grinned as they flew on. He didn't need superpowers to get to where the trouble was. Off to the side, Alba "Rocky Alboa" Jennings landed on a reinforced pad built into the sidewalk for people like her, and vaulted into the air again, soaring past skyscrapers. George kept running.

Fourteen blocks later...

George, nicknamed "The GIMP" for the way the first letters of his name lined up, wheezed into the Tyche Stadium parking lot. He staggered over to a light standard and fell against it, spraying himself with a bottle of water he'd picked up along the way. Sucking back the pain, he pulled himself up and lurched into the stadium, to see his team fighting an eighty-foot tall war robot with cannons, missiles, and flamethrowers.

He stood there for a long moment, holding the .45 automatic he'd paid through the nose to get. Then he looked back up at the giant robot, and his teammates whipping around it and zapping it.

"Ah..." he said after a moment, thumbing the comm device clipped to his shoulder. "I'm gonna look around for support troops. You guys tell me how it goes!"

"Sure thing, GIMP!"

George sighed and tucked the pistol into his waistband as he trudged down a corridor. Maybe they had a bathroom nearby. He could really use one...

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I'm with you Luminara -- my

I'm with you Luminara -- my main in CoH never took a travel power because none fit her concept. Like you, I prided myself on not letting that hold up a team. Not that I didn't partake in all the flavours with other characters, nor that I'm not looking fwd to the variations that will be available in CoT, but I would like the option to have none. It sounds like Doc's suggestion of Acrobatics might do the trick, though I'd like to know if Lothic's idea of taking one and just not using it will be available. I certainly hope all characters, regardless of travel power, will have S, DS, and W as Lothic suggests.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Lothic
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Dragonflight wrote:
Dragonflight wrote:

It's odd, but it sound like what Luminara wants is a deliberately "human-normal" character without any special movement powers. I say it's odd, because either you'll spend forever getting to combat, or you'll annoy everyone asking for teleports every time people want to get where they're going.

I'm not entirely sure what Luminara wants to do with this either. But to be clear in what I'm saying:

1) All CoT characters should have access to at least 3 "human normal" speeds regardless of the free travel power choice. These should be the equivalent of CoH's Sprint, CoH's Default Speed and CoH's Walk.

2) Among the list of choices for the free travel power there should be a choice to select "None". Sure there probably ought to be a Yes/No pop-up with that warning players that "It might be hard to get around without a travel power. Are you sure?" but it seriously ought to be a choice for those who seriously don't want one.

For what it's worth I knew several players in CoH who had characters that got around very effectively with various combinations of Sprint and/or temp Jetpack-type powers. It was actually very possible to play without having an "official" travel power and the same should be possible for CoT.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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This reminds me of the Terra

This reminds me of the Terra Volta respec trial in CoH. There was a time that you couldn't make it to the door of the reactor building at the end without a travel power, then they changed the terrain so that you could (or was it always like that, I forget).

If the original post was meant to be a request to make the game such that travel powers are of little to no real benefit (i.e. moving the TV trial door to ground level so as to make it easier to get to for the travel-power averse), I would request that the devs NOT do that. Some things should at least be challenging to get to without a travel power, I feel.

If the original post was meant as a request that all of the Exploration Badges be attainable without Fly or Super Jump or Teleport, I think the people who supported the Kickstarter (like myself) should be allowed to put the individual Exploration Badges WE paid for wherever we want to put them, within practical limits. If one or more of them ends up being impossible to get to without TP or Fly etc then I'm okay with that, personally. That said, if the Devs decide "We should tell people that all of the Exploration Badges can be gotten without a travel power and give an Accolade for actually doing it, so it's like a puzzle for people." I'm fine with that too.

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There are a couple of things

There are a couple of things to keep in mind when it comes to travel powers. Currently they are part of a separate system which is entirely optional, other than seeing you have options for these separate powers available, they are not required for completing the level-up process. This includes your first slot at character generation. Travel powers may offer multiple options for animations just like our combat powers can be altered. Currently, we have discussed a base run speed / jump height and a switch for walking which is univeral for all.

Travel powers being in an optional system avoids the issue of build constraint being affected by using a power pick for your Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary sets. Customizable travel powers allows for a wider range of concepts to be met.


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I think the deeper question

I think the deeper question being asked here , though, is whether or not the terrain itself will actually require anyone to have Fly or TP in order to be able to get someplace you might want to get to, like the top of a skyscraper, or that door in the TV trial. At least that's how I interpret it. In any event I'd be interested to hear the answer these questions (and if no answer, fine, but I'm asking anyway :).

1. Will those of us who paid for Kickstarter support levels that entitle us to an Exploration Badge be allowed to place such things in places only reachable by Fly or TP, etc?

2. If the answer to 1 above is "No." is that going to be for the reason that you want all the badges to be attainable without any type of "super powered" travel?

3. Will there be things in the game that are impossible to get to without some kind of super travel (or recall friend)?

4. Will there be an effort made to make sure all locations one might want/need to get to are in fact reachable with only "conventional" travel methods?

5. If Yes to 4, will they try to make it a challenge to reach certain areas in some cases, requiring sneaky or laborious (or both) methods needed to get to them?

Again if any of this hasn't been decided or discussed, I don't expect detailed answers, but I'm interested to hear about any of it you might be able to discuss here.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Will there also be equivalents to CoH's Sprint and Walk that anyone can use? Will Acrobatics include a "theme" (basic runner?) that essentially mimics old-school Sprint?
I understand the idea that if you don't want a "full-blown" travel power you could select something like Acrobatics and just not use it. But even in the realm of normal human movement (that doesn't involve "powers") it would still be useful to have the choice to switch between Sprint, Default Speed and Walk regardless if you ever use a faster travel power or not.

Walk is there. Sprint, however, is a bit more interesting. Now it is a toggle which applies to whatever travel power you have active, or to your base running movement if you have none active. The goal of the Acrobatics is to be the "non-travel power travel power", one without a toggle for activating its basic functionality. Sprint would, of course, make it move even faster than normal a la CoH Sprint.

A lot of the issue here I have noticed is that people are clinging to the old games methods, without consideration of the new capabilities. Instead of a "jingle jetpack" power, you get themes to give your powers the ability to appear to be a jetpack. No "Ninja Run" power but instead a theme for Acrobatics to give you that look.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

This reminds me of the Terra Volta respec trial in CoH. There was a time that you couldn't make it to the door of the reactor building at the end without a travel power, then they changed the terrain so that you could (or was it always like that, I forget).

If i remember correctly, even having Superspeed made it very hard to get to to the TV entrance, unless you had a friend who had "Recall friend" slotted, specially if you fell to the ground area. And for a respec, it makes it *very* strange to put a requirement in that you must have good vertical travel movement to even *consider* getting it.

If the original post was meant to be a request to make the game such that travel powers are of little to no real benefit (i.e. moving the TV trial door to ground level so as to make it easier to get to for the travel-power averse), I would request that the devs NOT do that. Some things should at least be challenging to get to without a travel power, I feel.[/;quote]
Oh I agree with that. Infact, I would like to see sections where having a *specific* type of travel power could be an advantage, but not making it so impossible that it is *forced*.

What do I mean? Well, how about an exploration point that is stuck at the *very* end of a tunnel where there is a strong wind blowing out of it? Super speed might be able to provide you enough oomph to get to the end and to the safe spot, flight *possibly* might be at a disadvantage, and if you were good enough with Teleport, you could do it as well.

That is just one example, that popped into my head...

Quote:

If the original post was meant as a request that all of the Exploration Badges be attainable without Fly or Super Jump or Teleport, I think the people who supported the Kickstarter (like myself) should be allowed to put the individual Exploration Badges WE paid for wherever we want to put them, within practical limits. If one or more of them ends up being impossible to get to without TP or Fly etc then I'm okay with that, personally. That said, if the Devs decide "We should tell people that all of the Exploration Badges can be gotten without a travel power and give an Accolade for actually doing it, so it's like a puzzle for people." I'm fine with that too.

This wraps up to the other side, and I can see where you are coming from. Hell, City of Heroes had badges around that flight/Hover made very easy to get, whilst superspeed was the "unlucky pick" because whilst it had very strong *horizontal* movement, its vertical component was very weak.

It is worth noting as well, that when the Paragon Studio developers made the Health pool inherent, you did get a boost (if you respecced/started a new character after the change).

I actually used to just use Ninja Run/random jump pack for most of the levelling in the game once I unlocked it, which gave me two more power picks (5 more when you think about Health pool being added), to play with...

Was I as fast as someone who had Superspeed? Nope, but on the other hand, I could also jump over obstacles/low buildings that the superspeeder couldn't.

So I can see as to why people might be wanting to be "not forced to pick a travel power", because it might make sense in THEIR head for THAT character.

Hell, in City of Heroes you were "not forced" to do it either; it was your choice. And with the exception of the Shadowshards where Super Speed/Super Jump were bad for "new players" there... the PS developers at least wised up eventually and added in the jet packs for those zones.

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1. Will those of us who paid

1. Will those of us who paid for Kickstarter support levels that entitle us to an Exploration Badge be allowed to place such things in places only reachable by Fly or TP, etc?

I don't think that would actually be possible, based on the design of the city. There are places which may be more difficult to reach, but nothing I can imagine being only reachable with Fly or TP.

2. If the answer to 1 above is "No." is that going to be for the reason that you want all the badges to be attainable without any type of "super powered" travel?

See #1

3. Will there be things in the game that are impossible to get to without some kind of super travel (or recall friend)?

Part of the goal is to keep things accessible for everyone. So, no putting things behind a wall which only TP'ers can reach.

4. Will there be an effort made to make sure all locations one might want/need to get to are in fact reachable with only "conventional" travel methods?

That is the goal, yes.

5. If Yes to 4, will they try to make it a challenge to reach certain areas in some cases, requiring sneaky or laborious (or both) methods needed to get to them?

There will be challenges for some areas, yes. But they are designed for players to think, rather than being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Example, lying on top of a cargo truck entering a compound, or looking for the open window in the back of the super-secret base, or following the security guards patrol route to figure out where the gap is.

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Thanks for the further

Thanks for the further clarification. I like the power-specific "Sprint" idea. Can you confirm that Walk will be separate from Default Speed -- a sort of RP tool as we were used to in the old days?

Don't worry, Doc, over time and with repeated dissemination of info, we'll eventually adapt to thinking in CoT terms. The old references had years to take root and settle in, so they'll take a while to be replaced.

[Removed question that Doc already answered while I was typing.]

Spurn all ye kindle.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

I have a question for you Luminara, what do you define as a travel power? From my point of view, swift, hurdle, and sprint were all travel powers in CoH.

Hurdle was, in my opinion and borne out by the numbers, a reasonable substitute for a travel power. Slotted to ED allowances, it was as fast as Fly with similar slotting. I personally tested that and verified the results, and shared my data with the entire Co* community. Level parity, slotting parity, Hurdle was comparable across the board provided the player was cognizant of his/her surroundings and route. Landing in the midst of a spawn or getting stuck below street level or under a bridge would, obviously, delay the Hurdler, as opposed to the Flier who could simply set a flight path and go take a break while travelling.

Swift + Sprint (inclusive of all variants) was not comparable, though. Not even with IO set bonuses. The base speeds involved simply weren't high enough to improve +RunSpeed to a sufficient degree to make it competitive, and there weren't enough IO set bonuses available across the board to compensate for the shortfalls.

Was Hurdle a travel power? No.

Was Hurdle my travel power of choice? Absolutely.

syntaxerror37 wrote:

From what you have posted I assume you got yourself through slotting and/or set bonuses up to a decent amount of speed. You may not have had flight, super speed, super jump, or teleport, but you had travel powers. Is your problem with travel powers purely thematic?

I did have travel powers on some of my characters. I'd played with all of the travel powers. I simply didn't care for them on my favorite characters. They lacked... immersion.

With Hurdle, I was grounded. I was part of the ebb and flow of the city. I could see the speed of my progress as the buildings and terrain zipped by me. I felt the impact of every movement, every decision, right or wrong. I existed within the city. With standard travel powers, I was removed, detached from the game. Flight, Teleportation and Super Leaping had me so far above that spawns didn't even appear, and the city looked like little more than a map. Super Speed was scarcely better, with spawns often appearing behind me, rather than in front, and entire zones acting as little more than rat mazes with no reward beyond finding a way out.

Hurdle put me in the game in a way none of the travel powers could, or did. It was one of the primary reasons I paid my subscription fees for almost 7 years.

Thematically, yes, it was fitting for several of my characters. I could've taken any travel power on any of my characters and made it explicable, within the character's background and abilities, without any trouble. I couldn't make those travel powers fun for me, though, any more than I could make certain powersets fun for me the way TA or Archery were.

syntaxerror37 wrote:

I would wager that with the right base and animation you can probably get the included travel power to look less super. Or, you can just leave it off and get around in other ways.

It's not a matter of animation. It's about how it feels. A jumping power which propels one 100' high isn't going to be more acceptable to me if it's animated as a series of trampolines or catapults, rather than simply jumping, because it's still not giving me that feeling of immersion. I don't want jet boots or a mother box or a bat wing suit, I want to feel engaged and active, part of the zone (or whatever they decide to call disparate sections of the city). In Co*, Hurdle did that. If I'm going to play CoT, I want something similar.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Maybe Luminara didnt like that SuperSpeed was glowing "Even" while s/he was standing still. :(

I didn't mind the animations or effects on certain characters. I simply didn't like the feeling of detachment from the environment which came with travel powers.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Consider the 7 travel powers a moment:
Superspeed
Superjump
Flight
Teleport
Swinging
Digging
Acrobatics
If you don't want a super-powered travel power, pick Acrobatics. You can run faster than a normal person, but do not travel beyond human capability. You can jump higher than a normal person, but again, not past human capability. Think someone with Ninja Run or who has their Fitness pool maxed out. Different themes can give you Parkour-like movement, or just a basic runner, or fancier movements like you find in Attack on Titan. You *can* improve it to climb walls a la Spiderman or Assassins Creed, but you can choose not to as well.

Acrobatics. Okay. Next question, can it be improved to the point of comparability to the other travel powers? In Co*, I could jump, with Hurdle, as fast as I could Fly (Fly being the slowest of the travel powers), if I put the slots toward that goal. Will this game allow the same flexibility?

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Dragonflight wrote:
Dragonflight wrote:

either you'll spend forever getting to combat, or you'll annoy everyone asking for teleports every time people want to get where they're going.

You clearly have absolutely no idea to whom you're speaking. I made and played a Kinetics scrapper in I5, after ED and years before the powerset existed for scrappers, and tanked AVs with her. I played TA/A to 50 before I7, primarily solo. I wrote the book on TA and Archery, my guides still being referenced up to the last days of Co*'s life. And in the thousands of hours I spent playing almost a dozen characters without travel powers, not once did I hold up a team or ask for help reaching a waypoint. On the very rare occasion when I actually did arrive last, it was always less time than Recall Friend's animation.

Don't presume to tell me what I can or can't do, or how limited I'll be based on your inability to progress at a reasonable rate without certain options. I'm not you. I'm Luminara.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think the deeper question being asked here , though, is whether or not the terrain itself will actually require anyone to have Fly or TP in order to be able to get someplace you might want to get to, like the top of a skyscraper, or that door in the TV trial.

Basically, yes. If there are going to be magical doors floating 300' in mid-air, or mile-wide lava trenches which can't be passed without fighting an AV on a bridge if don't have SS to jet past, that'd make portions of the game inaccessible to players who eschew the use of travel powers. And I'm not interested in playing a game which gates content or zones in that manner.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what Luminara wants to do with this either.

No. I'm not asking for every last centimeter of every zone or neighborhood or whatever be accessible with Walk. I just don't want to have to opt into a travel power simply to get around efficiently and effectively. There wasn't a single location in Co*, hero, villain or Praetorian side, which I couldn't access with Hurdle, CJ and patience. I'd like the same open terrain structure here, and/or engine allowances...

Example: a couple of people have mentioned the Terra Volta reactor waypoint. It was never inaccessible without a travel power. There were several paths to the east and west which led to the door, but there was also an engine quirk which caused you to slide up any wall with even the slightest slope if you had Combat Jumping toggled on. War Walls, the wall under the TV door, any wall like that could be scaled with no more effort than holding down the forward movement key while facing the wall. Quickly. Without a travel power, I could get to the TV door more quickly than anyone but TPers, simply by knowing the game mechanics.

If Acrobatics offers the same viability I could achieve through the use of Hurdle, CJ, awareness of my surroundings and knowledge of game mechanics, I'm satisfied.

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Quote:
Quote:

Doctor Tyche
Think someone with Ninja Run or who has their Fitness pool maxed out.

Quote:

Luminara
Acrobatics. Okay. Next question, can it be improved to the point of comparability to the other travel powers?.

Its right there.
But using CoH we can compare a bit. Each type of movement (ignoring Teleport) had a max speed it could aquire...run was around 90mph, jump was 75mph and fly was 55mph (going from memory here.)

Using just SO's it was easy to reach the speed cap for a travel power. If you ignored the travel powers in favor of swift, sprint, hurdle and ninja/beast run and used just SOs...I think you could get a run speed of 65mph and a jump speed of 70 mph. Roughly a middle ground in the entire travel power range. If you dropped ninja/beast run I think both dropped to about 50 mph. Below the travel power range but not so much as to be a huge speed loss.

So going by what Doctor Tyche Has said...acrobatics would roughly fall in the middle of the travel power speed that CoH offered. How that compares to the travel power speeds in CoT we can only guess but the fact that he specifically pointed it out leads me to believe they will be similar.

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Sprint+Swift= 47mph

Sprint+Swift= 47mph
Hurdle+Combat Jumping= 52mph
Flight+Swift= 58.6mph
Super Jump+Hurdle= 78mph
Super Speed+Sprint+Swift=92.5mph

Those are the max speeds of the travel powers. So while yes you can almost achieve the same speed as Flight with Hurdle plus Combat Jumping, you are still a smidge slower. I think also knowing your terrain and all the entrances to each Zone relative to your location also helps in reducing the amount of time getting to missions. Also keep in mind that later in the issues quality of life mechanics helped make it easier and faster to travel from mission to mission. Team Teleport, Mission Teleport, Oro Teleport, AH Teleport........I believe that in the beginning stages of CoH's life span a travel power was necessary to have. Later on it pretty much became a moot point.

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Luminara wrote: I'm Luminara.
Luminara wrote:

You clearly have absolutely no idea to whom you're speaking... I'm not you. I'm Luminara.

Yes, but are you the night? :P I swear I heard that last bit in a throaty rasp in my head.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I think my preference would

I think my preference would be for optional trade offs but IF "acrobatics" will be seen as the non-super powered travel power please consider this and be sure that it has the most variations or animation.

I really hate the impracticality of my character running in high heeled wedges BUT if she's required to do it then make sure there's a way to do so without making her feet look weird and nearly impossible to run/jump. CO took YEARS i'm pretty sure to get a "natural" run and even that didn't look right on my characters.

On second thought.. Maybe I better look forward to Rocket Heels ... yes.. Rocket Powered Parkours

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Gangrel wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Walk is there. Sprint, however, is a bit more interesting. Now it is a toggle which applies to whatever travel power you have active, or to your base running movement if you have none active. The goal of the Acrobatics is to be the "non-travel power travel power", one without a toggle for activating its basic functionality. Sprint would, of course, make it move even faster than normal a la CoH Sprint.

Thanks for your further clarifications on this. I think it's important we all have several "normal human" speed modes that don't rely on the need to have specific travel powers and I think you've covered that point. As long as we can switch between a slow Walk, a normal Default and a faster Sprint it'll be good regardless of what CoT calls those things or how they are implemented.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

A lot of the issue here I have noticed is that people are clinging to the old games methods, without consideration of the new capabilities. Instead of a "jingle jetpack" power, you get themes to give your powers the ability to appear to be a jetpack. No "Ninja Run" power but instead a theme for Acrobatics to give you that look.

I realize that CoT will end up having its own terms and methods for doing these things. Until we know more about the specifics we are going to be stuck discussing these ideas using the only common ground we currently have which is "how CoH did it". It's not that we want to "cling" to these concepts - it’s that we don't really have a choice until CoT becomes more firmly established and well-known.

Gangrel wrote:

So I can see as to why people might be wanting to be "not forced to pick a travel power", because it might make sense in THEIR head for THAT character.

Hell, in City of Heroes you were "not forced" to do it either; it was your choice. And with the exception of the Shadowshards where Super Speed/Super Jump were bad for "new players" there... the PS developers at least wised up eventually and added in the jet packs for those zones.

I understand people's desire to not feel like they must choose certain travel powers to succeed and it sounds like the Devs of CoT are generally mindful of that concern. On the other hand as long as the Devs also provide us the workaround means (like CoH's "jetpack" temp powers) to overcome the rare or unforeseen obstacle that might occur then I don't really think there will be any huge problem with this.

As a related hypothetical let's say CoT has 1,000 Exploration badges to find. I honestly wouldn't mind if the only way to get a few of those badges would be to have some kind of Fly-based travel power. I would not see that as being incredibly unreasonable. Now if we needed a Fly-type power to get like multiple dozens of them then, yeah, that'd be far into unreasonable territory at that point.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Sprint+Swift= 47mph
Hurdle+Combat Jumping= 52mph
Flight+Swift= 58.6mph
Super Jump+Hurdle= 78mph
Super Speed+Sprint+Swift=92.5mph
Those are the max speeds of the travel powers. So while yes you can almost achieve the same speed as Flight with Hurdle plus Combat Jumping, you are still a smidge slower.

Combat Jumping didn't increase jump speed. It buffed jump height exclusively. Hurdle was all you needed to achieve Fly-comparable speed as a bunny.

Quote:

I believe that in the beginning stages of CoH's life span a travel power was necessary to have. Later on it pretty much became a moot point.

On the contrary, it was even less of a necessity, perceived or otherwise, to take a travel power before ED was implemented in I5. From release to the last minutes of I4, one could slot Hurdle with 6 +Jump SOs, making it significantly faster than Fly. Thus, the point was always moot.

It was also provable, and had been proven, that despite having a potentially higher speed, up to the cap of 58.6, Fly still wasn't actually faster than Hurdle with similar slotting because of player behavior and usage of that travel power. Fliers tended to fly up, cutting their forward flight speed significantly, at the beginning of their trip, fly a straight path at a high altitude, then began flying down, again cutting their forward flight speed, when nearing their destination. The overall effect was an increase in their time to destination, which could be shown as a marked decline in their total mph. Hurdlers tended to take similarly direct routes, but since their speed remained constant and consistent (presuming familiarity with the terrain), they could reach the same destination in the equal or less time.

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So, Hurdle was not a travel

So, Hurdle was not a travel power? From what you've said in this thread, it seems like one to me, at least as much of one as Acrobatics in CO.

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Quote:

Luminara said

Quote:

It was also provable, and had been proven, that despite having a potentially higher speed, up to the cap of 58.6, Fly still wasn't actually faster than Hurdle with similar slotting because of player behavior and usage of that travel power..

This is very misleading. You are comparing a skilled player with hurdle over an unskilled player with flight. There was no loss in speed if the player went up and forward in flight at the same time. Two equally knowledgable and skilled players would both get the max effect from whatever travel they used. I can believe that you may have had more skill with hurdle than others had with flight but level the playing field and the point stands.... You also ignore things like combat avoidance, long distance travel and ease of use. So while hurdle may be comparable in speed to flight, it is by no means faster. You can't say something is proven when you twist the parameters like this.

Whats more way back in the beginning of CoH travel powers were more of a necessity for the majority of players. Static pointed out all the various porters a player could use to speed up travel time that came later in the game...but didn't bring up other issues that made a travel power attractive... such as the original debt mechanics, slotting and the biggest reason.....mission location.

In the early stages of CoH missions were everywhere....a level 5 would have to avoid level 10 foes regularly... you would have missions deep in a trial zone...you would have two separate trams with differing transport locations...and so on....the game was not travel friendly in the beginning....especially for casual players.

Incidently....you could have gotten a much faster travel than hurdle and still got your poetic 'ebb and flow of the city' if you tapped the jump button with super jump instead of holding it down. Would have taken less slots and given you more options in travel...

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Luminara said
Quote:
It was also provable, and had been proven, that despite having a potentially higher speed, up to the cap of 58.6, Fly still wasn't actually faster than Hurdle with similar slotting because of player behavior and usage of that travel power..
This is very misleading. You are comparing a skilled player with hurdle over an unskilled player with flight.

The comparison was valid. Skill was irrelevant in regard to flight. At most, a "skilled" Flier could toggle Fly off when nearing his/her destination and descend more quickly than an "unskilled" Flier. There were no special tactics or techniques in how Fly could be used to move from point A to point B.

Furthermore, the description of how Fly was used was also valid. Players didn't toggle Fly, then zoom around at street level. That wasn't optimal usage of the power, nor even typical use. People occasionally did it, when goofing off, but not when making a journey to a waypoint. In the post-suppression game, people made even more effort to stay as far away from spawns as possible simply because Fly became insanely annoying when suppressed.

Quote:

There was no loss in speed if the player went up and forward in flight at the same time.

But there was. That was tested extensively and repeatedly by many people. A character moved at maximum speed only in the direction of flight. You couldn't fly up at 58.6 mph and forward at 58.6 mph. You could fly along a diagonal vector upward and forward at 58.6 mph, but your actual flight speed moving forward was less than 58.6 mph in relation to the terrain. This was tested simply by timing one's flight from one end of a zone to the other while flying in a perfectly straight and level line, then comparing that to the time taken by a flight path with crests and troughs. That alone showed that flight speed was maintained only in one direction, one vector, not while the character was moving in two simultaneous directions (up and forward or down and forward).

Quote:

Two equally knowledgable and skilled players would both get the max effect from whatever travel they used. I can believe that you may have had more skill with hurdle than others had with flight but level the playing field and the point stands....

The only way to bring parity to the two methods of movement would be to force the Flier to maintain a ground level path, which simply wasn't the way the power was used. It just wasn't. You're calling me out for making an unfair comparison, then insisting that we disregard player behavior and usage of a power to make your own point valid.

Quote:

You also ignore things like combat avoidance, long distance travel and ease of use.

Combat avoidance couldn't even be considered as a factor. Spawns appeared at a far enough distance to give even people with slow reaction times and low-end computers sufficient opportunity to divert to alternative paths, and spawns were rarely so close as to make them impassable. Additionally, everyone had to learn how to avoid combat prior to travel power availability, and the distance at which spawns became visible and placements of those spawns didn't change as the player leveled his/her character up to 50. This simply wasn't an issue.

Long distance travel wasn't a detrimental point either. The distance was the same regardless of how the player crossed it, and for those with SS or SJ, the same hazards and terrain were present. It was no more difficult to cross a zone for a Hurdler than it was for someone with SS or SJ.

As for ease of use, yes, I'll grant that Fly was easier to use. The same could be said about Fly versus SS, SJ or TP, which makes it meaningless in regard to the context of this discussion. It's irrelevant.

Quote:

So while hurdle may be comparable in speed to flight, it is by no means faster. You can't say something is proven when you twist the parameters like this.

I didn't say that. I said that Hurdle could exceed Fly's cap prior to the implementation of Enhancement Diversification, but that after I5 went live, it was merely comparable to Fly in regard to speed and that, due to behavior and power usage, someone with Hurdle could reach the same destination in equal or less time. Could.

At no time in this discussion, nor on any thread in the Co* forums, have I ever claimed that Hurdle was faster than Fly across the board or without any qualifiers. I've always maintained that it was comparable in the post-ED game and that, when used by a player with more than two neurons to rub together, could allow the player to arrive at a destination before a Flier. That's not an exaggeration, it was based on real math, real experience and real data gathered by many other players. And if it had been a misrepresentation of the truth, or an outright lie, Arcanaville or Castle would've corrected me, in public and without sparing the lashes.

Quote:

Whats more way back in the beginning of CoH travel powers were more of a necessity for the majority of players.

I've said it more than once in this thread, I'll say it again. They were never a necessity. Never. A convenience, yes. A preference, yes. A thematic choice, yes. A necessity, no.

Quote:

Static pointed out all the various porters a player could use to speed up travel time that came later in the game...but didn't bring up other issues that made a travel power attractive... such as the original debt mechanics, slotting and the biggest reason.....mission location.
In the early stages of CoH missions were everywhere....a level 5 would have to avoid level 10 foes regularly... you would have missions deep in a trial zone...you would have two separate trams with differing transport locations...and so on....the game was not travel friendly in the beginning....especially for casual players.

Thus the 14 levels of education in spawn avoidance and foot travel through zones. You either learned your lesson or you didn't.

Quote:

Incidently....you could have gotten a much faster travel than hurdle and still got your poetic 'ebb and flow of the city' if you tapped the jump button with super jump instead of holding it down. Would have taken less slots and given you more options in travel...

At the cost of one power selection, which I would've had to expend on either CJ or Junk Kick. I opted for Hurdle because it didn't have a pre-requisite and was satisfactory in both speed and slot cost. As much as it may shock you, I did know what I was doing.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

So, Hurdle was not a travel power? From what you've said in this thread, it seems like one to me, at least as much of one as Acrobatics in CO.

As I stated earlier in the thread, no, it wasn't a "real" travel power. It was a Fitness pool power, it just happened to provide enough +JumpSpeed to make it an acceptable substitute for a travel power (for me and others like me).

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I am sincerely happy to hear

I am sincerely happy to hear that travel powers will have a "Sprint" option! This is a GREAT equalizer for how travel powers can be used with varying efficacy in combat.. some being able to move in sprint longer than others.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I am sincerely happy to hear that travel powers will have a "Sprint" option! This is a GREAT equalizer for how travel powers can be used with varying efficacy in combat.. some being able to move in sprint longer than others.

I agree. One of the few things DCUO got right was a high speed flight mode (FINALLY, not just floating like a blimp) that just tanked your manuverability so you couldn't use it for combat.

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Hurdle by itself gets you 51

Hurdle by itself gets you 51.7mph. Hurdle+Combat Jumping gets you 52mph. While it might not seem like much it goes from 6.6mph difference to 6.9mph in regards to Flight. So hurdle all by itself is even slower.

Also think about the Hollows and trying to run the Gulch. There were mobs that would pop up out of the ground that unless you knew to look for the steam rising up from the ground to signal where they would pop up would easily get you killed in a heartbeat. Then there was Faultline with all the broken paths and dips and gullies you'd have to navigate in which flight would get you there faster. And Boomtown. And the Shadow Shard.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Technically SPEED is defined

Technically SPEED is defined as distance covered over time. So if you HAVE TO fly up to then fly horizontal to your destination and then fly (fall?) down you are travelling in 3 directions
A>B (up)
B>C (across)
C>D (down)

If you only have to run on a flat surface you only go from A>B.

However when comparing speed the common method is to compare the maximum numbers of the objects against each other.
CarA can reach 200 kmph.
CarB can reach 220 kmph therefore CarB is faster (ignoring acceleration times).

Harrier Jump JetA can reach 1500 kmph therefore the jet is faster than CarB, even though it "should fly up before flying forward then down to land" it doesn't HAVE TO (apart from maybe a meter just in case :)).

I often used flight on the ground when travelling to missions in CoH, even in the city areas. The roads were clear enough to avoid the traffic. I didn't use Flight in combat because of the End Cost, it was either Hover or Combat Jumping.

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Quote:
Quote:

The comparison was valid.

and

Quote:

Furthermore, the description of how Fly was used was also valid..

and

Quote:

But there was. That was tested extensively and repeatedly by many people. A character moved at maximum speed only in the direction of flight. You couldn't fly up at 58.6 mph and forward at 58.6 mph. You could fly along a diagonal vector upward and forward at 58.6 mph, but your actual flight speed moving forward was less than 58.6 mph in relation to the terrain..

And this is where my investigations differ. If you Aimed your character in an upward trajectory then yes your speed relative to the ground did lower....but if you used the fly up (you know the jump button) and forward buttons in conjunction your speed did not lower. I am not sure how the flyer tested his movement in your tests but in mine we looked at that.

Quote:

The only way to bring parity to the two methods of movement would be to force the Flier to maintain a ground level path, which simply wasn't the way the power was used. It just wasn't. You're calling me out for making an unfair comparison, then insisting that we disregard player behavior and usage of a power to make your own point valid.

Not at all. As I just stated my own anecdotal evidence (same as your anecdotal evidence) gave me differing results based on someone who was skilled with the power. In fact I even described the behavior a player with skill over one without would take.

Quote:

Combat avoidance couldn't even be considered as a factor.

You say this /\ but previously you said this \/

Quote:

Landing in the midst of a spawn or getting stuck below street level or under a bridge would, obviously, delay the Hurdler, as opposed to the Flier who could simply set a flight path and go take a break while travelling..

And yet you still don't think this is a factor at all? Alright.

Quote:

Long distance travel wasn't a detrimental point either. The distance was the same regardless of how the player crossed it, and for those with SS or SJ, the same hazards and terrain were present. It was no more difficult to cross a zone for a Hurdler than it was for someone with SS or SJ..

Well, my point was in regards to hurdle vs fly....anyway
How can long distances not be a factor? Its simple math.

I won't bore you with a large equation here but the short time when there is a loss of speed going up or down (making hurdle the faster travel) would be counter by the longer time when fly was faster. This does not take into account that the loss of speed going up or down with fly would not actually make hurdle faster or the fact that my own experience with fly was it did not loose speed going up or down.

Quote:

As for ease of use, yes, I'll grant that Fly was easier to use. The same could be said about Fly versus SS, SJ or TP, which makes it meaningless in regard to the context of this discussion. It's irrelevant..

So when you have to stop moving and the flyer does not when you go to the bathroom or get a drink it has no impact? How about terrain that could be instantly avoided as opposed to going around? The hurdler losing forward speed when he has to go sideways a bit to avoid a mob (you know like how you say fly looses speed going up or down) ...none of that is relevant?

Quote:

I didn't say that. I said that Hurdle could exceed Fly's cap prior to the implementation of Enhancement Diversification, but that after I5 went live, it was merely comparable to Fly in regard to speed and that, due to behavior and power usage, someone with Hurdle could reach the same destination in equal or less time. Could.

At no time in this discussion, nor on any thread in the Co* forums, have I ever claimed that Hurdle was faster than Fly across the board or without any qualifiers

This is what you are referring to...

Quote:

On the contrary, it was even less of a necessity, perceived or otherwise, to take a travel power before ED was implemented in I5. From release to the last minutes of I4, one could slot Hurdle with 6 +Jump SOs, making it significantly faster than Fly. Thus, the point was always moot.

It was also provable, and had been proven, that despite having a potentially higher speed, up to the cap of 58.6, Fly still wasn't actually faster than Hurdle with similar slotting because of player behavior and usage of that travel power
.

Is the qualifier player behavior and usage? Well as I said before...your proof and mine differ.

Quote:

That's not an exaggeration, it was based on real math, real experience and real data gathered by many other players.

Well...I hope you can see the math is off a bit....and I hope you can see that others had a differing experience.

Quote:

I've said it more than once in this thread, I'll say it again. They were never a necessity. Never. A convenience, yes. A preference, yes. A thematic choice, yes. A necessity, no..

I guess being casual with the language in effort to make a point has failed me.
What I hoped you would get from that was the idea that as Static has said...travel powers had built in speed, ease of use and versatility. Those factors had a much lower impact once the porting powers became the norm.

Quote:

Thus the 14 levels of education in spawn avoidance and foot travel through zones. You either learned your lesson or you didn't..

This makes no sense in relation to our conversation... to me at least. I explain why a travel power was important and you say good thing you had to wait 14 levels to get it and if you don't learn then poo poo. To me that's actually a reason for having a safe and fast way to get from point a to point b.

Quote:

At the cost of one power selection, which I would've had to expend on either CJ or Junk Kick. I opted for Hurdle because it didn't have a pre-requisite and was satisfactory in both speed and slot cost.

Did you say this was a reason you liked hurdle before? All I ever saw was your 'ebb and flow' reason.
Also you said quite often that you used hurdle in conjunction with CJ. But I guess you are right, it would have taken you another power choice to get em all...(considering how the fitness pool or rather just stamina and the prereq were regarded as mandatory)

I had hoped you would see that a travel power would have filled all your stated desires especially when you specifically pointed out that you had characters it might have fit and you had no issue with CJ as a power choice or even SJ's appearance. If you had pointed out how a power choice is worth more than power slots to you then I would not have bothered.

C'mon man....there is a lack of consistency in you posts.
First you say you did a bunch of tests as the sole voice of hurdles power...then say it was a bunch of people who did the testing.
You talk about being backed by math yet use human behavior as your evidence.
You use hyperbolic statements about being so high you cant see anything on the ground but decry someone elses hyperbolic statement of lagging behind others.
You brag about being important on the CoH boards then drop names of people I have actually heard of.

Quote:

As much as it may shock you, I did know what I was doing..

It doesn't shock me that you knew what you were doing....I mean you boasted about it.
A lot
Absolutely no surprise there. I mean after all you are 'LUMINARA'.

Does it shock you that others knew what they were doing too?

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Regarding "ebb and flow of

Regarding "ebb and flow of the city" while travelling: this is one of the features of CoH's travel powers that I personally found to be almost entrancing; a skill to be mastered and enjoyed, and one which I have not found in other MMOs.

Whether a mix of short and giant leaps with SJ, or dizzying cornering and fence-hopping with SS+CJ+Hurdle (CJ for the mid-air control, of course!), or Flight+CJ near ground level with modest addition of rise/fall keys for obstacle avoidance, or the no-official-travel-power builds with Ninja Run... I found that all could provide a pleasant interaction with the terrain and a high degree of safety from enemy groups - assuming knowledge of spawn locations and/or one stealth IO.

The only exception was Teleport, which I did use on a few characters but disliked the slow feeling of activation, delayed reactivation, and inconsistent float duration. If they would have split it into a slower-activating longer-distance TP and a second mode (or separate power) that felt more like a fast-activating combat teleport with some aspects derived from CO's version, I'd have loved that travel scheme as well. I will be tempted to try CoT's swinging and digging options if for no other reason than to explore the mechanics, though none of my character concepts involve those (yet).

One of the best movement features in CoH - that I hope will be preserved here - was the combat movement flow. With enough of the inherent movement buffs, Sprint, and CJ, in-combat agility felt truly heroic. Lining up cones or repositioning mid-fight was fun and quick. Far better than CO's clunky feeling, with its huge step function from travel speed to its suppressed version that feels like a human jogging speed. About the best CO could manage is Acrobatics with Versatility, but then it stuck me with all of that odd jump-flipping and awkward leaning.

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The reason a lot of people

The reason a lot of people preferred Flight was because the shortest distance between two points is a straight line and Flight allows you to do that. I'm not saying that in some instances Hurdle wasn't a viable travel option, but I highly doubt it was the most optimal choice to take. There are a lot of factors to take in, mobs, buildings, location of mission entrance being high up or street level, obstacles placed in the path, paths being broken, going from one teleporter or jump pad to another, etc. In a perfect straight line scenario perhaps Hurdle could get you there just as fast if maybe a smidge slower, but with all the other stuff mentioned above I'm pretty sure the Travel Powers were the optimal way to go.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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the 3rd Dimension rule has no

the 3rd Dimension rule has no bearing on gaming.

The ability to travel the Z axis "slowly" does not change the fact that the "distance to target" is much greater for flying characters than it is for those who are grounded. I personally WANT distance in the Z axis to count in combat otherwise I'm just playing another Isometric MOBA.

As much as I LOVE .. LOOOOOOVE Marvel Heroes.. the lack of Z Axis control makes the WHOLE game feel cheap.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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All these posts about how fly

All these posts about how fly was capped at just under 60 miles per hour and not one person brings up Afterburner and how it broke that cap? Sure, it wasn't around long before our beloved game went tits up, but it existed and completely invalidates any and all claims that hurdle could match a flyer for travel time.

Fly+swift+afterburner=minimum of 70.7 miles per hour. Unslotted.

Faster than flying? I think not. Before you say 'afterburner doesn't count' or something foolish like that, kindly recall that afterburner also added in some personal defense bonuses so you could fly through the city at street level. Afterburner sent my 53% defense numbers into the low 70's when I turned it on in hover, and my Nerve Radial Paragon meant I didn't even need to put any extra slots towards speed.

Claim it was just as good all you like. The math says you're batshit crazy.

The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue

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Quote:
Quote:

All these posts about how fly was capped at just under 60 miles per hour and not one person brings up Afterburner and how it broke that cap? Sure, it wasn't around long before our beloved game went tits up, but it existed and completely invalidates any and all claims that hurdle could match a flyer for travel time.

Fly+swift+afterburner=minimum of 70.7 miles per hour. Unslotted.

Faster than flying? I think not. Before you say 'afterburner doesn't count' or something foolish like that, kindly recall that afterburner also added in some personal defense bonuses so you could fly through the city at street level. Afterburner sent my 53% defense numbers into the low 70's when I turned it on in hover, and my Nerve Radial Paragon meant I didn't even need to put any extra slots towards speed.

Claim it was just as good all you like. The math says you're batshit crazy.
.

To be fair...the comparison was between flight and hurdle....not flight with afterburner and hurdle. To which he was right...hurdle is comparable.
You also don't bring up end cost, power selections and the biggest thing....inability to target foes. After burner was a fantastic addition to the fly pool but its not part of the point Luminara was trying to make or the questions he had. He got his answers (I think he is happy with them).

My issue was his continued misleading comments and inconsistency.

Quote:

the 3rd Dimension rule has no bearing on gaming.

The ability to travel the Z axis "slowly" does not change the fact that the "distance to target" is much greater for flying characters than it is for those who are grounded. I personally WANT distance in the Z axis to count in combat otherwise I'm just playing another Isometric MOBA.

As much as I LOVE .. LOOOOOOVE Marvel Heroes.. the lack of Z Axis control makes the WHOLE game feel cheap.
.

Gotta expand on this in another thread please....I would really like to know what you mean by Z axis in combat.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Gotta expand on this in another thread please....I would really like to know what you mean by Z axis in combat.

If was to venture a guess, i would say its the lack of camera rotation around the character... umm like you can in The Sims?!? :P

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Naw man....that cant be what

Naw man....that cant be what he means....at least I hope it isnt

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
Gotta expand on this in another thread please....I would really like to know what you mean by Z axis in combat.

If was to venture a guess, i would say its the lack of camera rotation around the character... umm like you can in The Sims?!? :P

I believe they want to Fly above the battlefield, unreachable by melee-goons, and rain destruction on the hapless groundlings.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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in a MOBA style game you are

in a MOBA style game you are allowed to APPEAR to be moving in a X Y and Z axis but no matter if you jump, fly or anything of the like the line of sight works on 2 dimensions. I don't want to play a side scrolling game.

Fireheart wrote:

I believe they want to Fly above the battlefield, unreachable by melee-goons, and rain destruction on the hapless groundlings.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Your ability to mis state my opinions and words are quite extraordinary. Nothing that I've ever said on this forum would give the impression that I don't want parity in combat design.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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So you want a FP view?

So you want a FP view?

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My you're a thick one.

My you're a thick one. Movement on the Z axis is vertical movement. X is left and right. Y is in and out or backwards and forwards. In a 2D environment; the Z axis is considered to be the missing dimension of motion. The Z axis can be tricked and half - done easily.

Doom is a classic example of a game with a trick Z axis. All movement in Doom-engine games takes place on the 2 dimensional minimap, which is why it's so easy to get killed by enemies that are above or below you...your hit box is effectively a cylinder of infinite height. The Z axis only appears to exist because of how their maps are built. Notice that no map in Doom has two areas right above each other?

The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue

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Quote:
Quote:

Movement on the Z axis is vertical movement. X is left and right. Y is in and out or backwards and forwards. In a 2D environment; the Z axis is considered to be the missing dimension of motion. The Z axis can be tricked and half - done easily...

I asked that question to JayBezz because I clung to the hope that when he said LoS he meant LoS and not be about a combat system that did not have any relation to the proposed one in CoT. I still hope that if he did use line of sight in relation to a combat system that he wasn't talking about the one in CoT but about other games. I did not want to mistakenly start to discuss something that he didn't intend.

For example when you say this

Quote:

Doom is a classic example of a game with a trick Z axis. All movement in Doom-engine games takes place on the 2 dimensional minimap, which is why it's so easy to get killed by enemies that are above or below you...your hit box is effectively a cylinder of infinite height. The Z axis only appears to exist because of how their maps are built. Notice that no map in Doom has two areas right above each other?
..

I can respond with

The combat mechanics in a game like Doom are twitch based. The proposed combat mechanics in CoT are RNG based. Hit boxes large or small have an effect in twitch combat but little to no effect in RNG combat. Even the idea of collision detection is usually done with different system called bounding boxes (used mostly for object collision).

Incidentally the hit boxes in doom were not a cylinder nor were they effectively infinite on the z axis. First off cylinders were not possible at the time when Doom was made...they were right angled boxes (hence the term Hit Box) And the only reason they seemed like they extended to infinity was because of Dooms field of view dimensions which had the hit box extending above and below the limits giving you the perception of a larger hit box which only gets worse when you factor in how much of Doom took place in low ceiling maps.

But in this case I know you were just using Doom as an example to try and explain your point and not to compare it to CoTs combat (at least I hope so).

I can appreciate your explanation but am disgusted by this...

Quote:

My you're a thick one.

Just stop. Internet tough guys impress no one.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Your ability to mis state my opinions and words are quite extraordinary. Nothing that I've ever said on this forum would give the impression that I don't want parity in combat design.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult you.

You said you wanted Z-axis control and I presumed that meant you wanted to be able to Fly.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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islandtrevor72][quote wrote:
islandtrevor72][quote wrote:

And this is where my investigations differ.

I understand your confusion, but I believe I can clarify it for you.

First, there's the matter of game balance. If movement worked as you insist it had, it essentially would've permitted travelling along two axes at the same rate of speed as traveling along a single axis. Basically, it would've permitted players to fly at almost 120 mph simply by angling their characters at a diagonal and flying in that direction. That would also have permitted Super Speed to achieve close to 200 mph.

But that wasn't how the engine was programmed. Movement mechanics were vectored, not axial. Whichever way you were moving, even along multiple axes, you moved at the same speed, except when moving backward (which had a lower base speed multiplier). Straight forward, forward and left, forward and up, left and down, didn't matter, your character would always be moving at the same rate along that vector.

Second, your testing methodology was hideously flawed, if you tested it at all. And I can prove that.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Titan_Icon

While the servers may have been shut down, the client is still freely available and many people have been working on ways to, if not restore Co* as a MMORPG, at least give die-hard fans some form of solace via limited access. This allows you to start the game, create a character and log in and... not much else. There aren't any random NPCs, though you can spawn some with console commands or popmenus. There's no thing to fight. You can't use powers, can't level up, can't leave zones or buildings without using the console or a popmenu.

But you can fly, and you can test flight speed. Which I did, just to verify my notes from a few years ago. I performed exactly the same tests with this recent examination of engine mechanics that I performed back then. I flew up to a landing spot on the War Wall, leveled and centered the camera for each run, then hit autorun and the stopwatch timer at the same time.

Straight course, no deviation up, down, left or right, north to south in IP: 1:43
Swooping and diving course, using the space bar and X key, north to south in IP: 2:22

That's a 38% increase in flight time.

Anyone and everyone can download Tequila and test this. Including you.

Quote:

Not at all. As I just stated my own anecdotal evidence (same as your anecdotal evidence) gave me differing results based on someone who was skilled with the power. In fact I even described the behavior a player with skill over one without would take.

Okay, well, my "anecdotal" evidence is verifiable by everyone, and yours is conclusively proven to be erroneous.

I'm going to address that "anecdotal" comment further below. Moving on for the moment...

Quote:

Quote:
Combat avoidance couldn't even be considered as a factor.
You say this /\ but previously you said this \/
Quote:
Landing in the midst of a spawn or getting stuck below street level or under a bridge would, obviously, delay the Hurdler, as opposed to the Flier who could simply set a flight path and go take a break while travelling..
And yet you still don't think this is a factor at all? Alright.

No, I don't think it's a factor. As I very clearly and plainly stated, spawn draw distance was more than sufficient to allow players to spot potential trouble and divert around them, and we had 14 levels to learn how to accomplish that before exercising the option to select a travel power. Those of us who skipped travel powers worried about accidentally blundering into spawns about as much as those of you with travel powers worried about running out of endurance or being de-toggled and blundering into a spawn.

Quote:

How can long distances not be a factor? Its simple math.

That's right, it's simply math. Your maximum flight speed of 58.6 mph decreases in relation to the horizontal axis when you're moving along the vertical axis, thereby increasing your travel time (and, again, anyone who cares to test this for him/herself can do so with Tequila). Your forward speed also decreases when strafing left or right while flying, and turning to the left or right has the exact same effect, again increasing your travel time. So regardless of whether you fly up and forward to a certain altitude, then level off and fly straight forward, then descend as you approach your destination; or fly close to street level and swerve to avoid obstacles, the end result is the same, you reach your destination later than you would have if you could have maintained your maximum speed flying in a perfectly straight ilne. As there were no zones in which one could simply hit autorun at ground level and not run into obstacles (terrain, walls or buildings), a Flier had to sacrifice speed to reach any destination, anywhere.

Ergo, despite Fly's speed cap being 58.6 mph, that wasn't the actual speed at which fliers traveled when measured over any given distance unless they had clear line of sight to their destination and never accessed either of the other two axes. Given the design of the zones, that was only possible when the destination was within a few dozen, perhaps a couple hundred feet.

Using Hurdle, the only losses in speed were upon encountering obstacles too high to surmount (which goes back to draw distance and spending the first 14 levels learning how to move about without headbutting walls or bouncing into spawns), which were very easy to avoid, and from changing course, the speed loss of which was always negligible because jumps were short and shallow enough for the player to resume full speed in the correct direction very, very rapidly. Hurdlers were capable of maintaining nearly the full ~52 mph, despite access to the vertical axis being very limited.

Quote:

I won't bore you with a large equation here

...

Quote:

but the short time when there is a loss of speed going up or down (making hurdle the faster travel)

You're beginning to get your "facts" mixed up. You said there was no loss of speed, now you're saying there is, and below this, you say there isn't because you "tested" it.

I'll refer to that link above, again, so you can conduct a more thorough test and figure out where your miscalculation was.

Quote:

would be counter by the longer time when fly was faster.

Presuming a straight path with no assent or descent, and no obstacles to go around, and a long enough distance (more than three zones), and comparative load times when zoning, possibly. And it was also possible for the Hurdler to arrive at the same time, or earlier.

Quote:

This does not take into account that the loss of speed going up or down with fly would not actually make hurdle faster[

Correct. Loss of flight speed on one person's character had no effect on the jump speed of another person's character. The Flier's lower actual rate of movement in relation to the destination affected only the Flier.

Quote:

or the fact that my own experience with fly was it did not loose speed going up or down.

Well, I've given you an opportunity to re-evaluate your experience. Perhaps you can do some more extensive and accurate testing and come to a different conclusion.

Quote:

So when you have to stop moving and the flyer does not when you go to the bathroom or get a drink it has no impact?

You're making the argument that someone who exhibits lazy behavior with one travel power must be indicative of all players' behavior with all modes of transit? Seriously?

Quote:

How about terrain that could be instantly avoided as opposed to going around? The hurdler losing forward speed when he has to go sideways a bit to avoid a mob (you know like how you say fly looses speed going up or down) ...none of that is relevant?

And due to the short length of the jumps, that loss in speed is extremely brief. As I said above, it does decrease jump speed, but Hurdle's jumping characteristics were short, shallow leaps, not enormous bounds, and Hurdlers could maintain a relatively straight path even when accounting for terrain variations, spawns and large obstacles, resulting in little actual loss of speed in relation to the distance traveled.

It should also be noted that Hurdle wasn't subject to combat suppression (not going to scroll up to see if i mentioned that previously), which permitted greater flexibility in route selection. Contrast that with Fly, which reduced speed to base Hover value when suppressed, something which coerced the vast majority of Fliers to avoid travel at ground level or select very particular routes when doing so, or experience even longer transit times.

Quote:

Is the qualifier player behavior and usage? Well as I said before...your proof and mine differ.

And my proof can still be seen. It's in Tequila. Where's yours?

Quote:

Well...I hope you can see the math is off a bit....and I hope you can see that others had a differing experience.

I can see that your math is off. So can everyone who cares to test it themselves.

Quote:

Did you say this was a reason you liked hurdle before? All I ever saw was your 'ebb and flow' reason.

I wasn't aware that I was only allowed a single reason for anything. Someone forgot to forward me the memo explaining that I needed your permission. Ever so sorry about that. Perhaps you should have a word with your staff.

Quote:

Also you said quite often that you used hurdle in conjunction with CJ. But I guess you are right, it would have taken you another power choice to get em all...

Sometimes I used CJ, sometimes I didn't. I used CJ on some of my Fliers and SSers, too. What of it?

Quote:

(considering how the fitness pool or rather just stamina and the prereq were regarded as mandatory)

That's another discussion entirely.

Quote:

I had hoped you would see that a travel power would have filled all your stated desires especially when you specifically pointed out that you had characters it might have fit and you had no issue with CJ as a power choice or even SJ's appearance. If you had pointed out how a power choice is worth more than power slots to you then I would not have bothered.

You hoped to convince me that I could have or should have taken travel powers on some of my characters? When did my choices become your concern?

Quote:

C'mon man....there is a lack of consistency in you posts.
First you say you did a bunch of tests as the sole voice of hurdles power...then say it was a bunch of people who did the testing.
You talk about being backed by math yet use human behavior as your evidence.
You use hyperbolic statements about being so high you cant see anything on the ground but decry someone elses hyperbolic statement of lagging behind others.
You brag about being important on the CoH boards then drop names of people I have actually heard of.

Well, no, none of that is true. I've been very consistent. You've attempted to take things out of context and use them to make it appear that I lack consistency, you've dismissed everything I've said without providing any actual evidence or facts to disprove my statements, you separate everything I say into discrete components and pretend they're completely unrelated, even when in the same sentance...

I share data that I and other people gathered, and you throw it out with the accusation of it being "anecdotal" (this is where we get back to that), then, when I point out that very knowledgeable people would've corrected me when I said exactly the same things in the Co* forums, you say I'm dropping names (which is incorrect, as i never claimed them as friends, simply said that they would've posted to tell me i was wrong if i had been).

I've gotten a very strong impression that this was never about Hurdle or Fly, it was you stroking your ego and trying to prove something. Did you really make any attempt, at all, to test the vector mechanics behind movement? Did you? Because the real data doesn't support anything you've said in regard to that, and in conjunction with your constant efforts to twist everything I've said make it pretty clear that "winning" is all that really matters to you, even if you aren't right. If that is the case, I'm not the person with whom you should be engaging in this behavior. I make it a point to ensure that my information is accurate, at all times, and I also make it a point to provide proof of that accuracy when necessary. Like that link to Tequila, which you can install and use to check the data on Fly and movement vectors yourself, should you be so inclined.

Quote:

It doesn't shock me that you knew what you were doing....I mean you boasted about it.
A lot
Absolutely no surprise there. I mean after all you are 'LUMINARA'.

Two posts is "a lot"? In the same way that conducting a single test on Fly would've been "a lot", thus too much to be tolerable? Or are you implying that you were having a moment of faulty memory or miscalculated something (like you did when you "tested" Fly's vectoring) when you claimed to have no idea of who I am or was on the Co* forums?

Quote:

Does it shock you that others knew what they were doing too?

I've had plenty of other people teach me things about Co*.

They actually tested stuff, though.

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Gonna quote out of order here

Gonna quote out of order here a bit because something got crossed.

Quote:

I've gotten a very strong impression that this was never about Hurdle or Fly, it was you stroking your ego and trying to prove something..

If you have gotten that impression I apologize. After your initial question was answered (I hope to your satisfaction) I thought I would discuss some things I found misleading and inconsistant. I was under the impression we were having a friendly discussion which was open to gentle ribbing such as I had done with the consistency remark and making fun of what I perceived to be a deliberate joke comment you made (the I am Luminara one). If you look I did defend your original position. It was never my intention to make this about winning but to state my opinion and experience and how they differed from yours. This is why I only used the word proof once.

In that spirit I would like to continue to discuss it.

Quote:

I understand your confusion, but I believe I can clarify it for you.

First, there's the matter of game balance. If movement worked as you insist it had, it essentially would've permitted travelling along two axes at the same rate of speed as traveling along a single axis. Basically, it would've permitted players to fly at almost 120 mph simply by angling their characters at a diagonal and flying in that direction. That would also have permitted Super Speed to achieve close to 200 mph.

But that wasn't how the engine was programmed. Movement mechanics were vectored, not axial. Whichever way you were moving, even along multiple axes, you moved at the same speed, except when moving backward (which had a lower base speed multiplier). Straight forward, forward and left, forward and up, left and down, didn't matter, your character would always be moving at the same rate along that vector.
.

I also understand your confusion....
Fly was programed with slightly lazy codeing. When using the jump key to fly up you were not using fly to move but your jump. So by using the jump and forward keys you did in essence increase the overall speed of fly...it was a flaw in the code. To go down quickly you simply turned off fly and fell (which was faster than fly movement).

Quote:

Second, your testing methodology was hideously flawed, if you tested it at all. And I can prove that.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Titan_Icon
.

First I did know about Titan...it was what brought me here (search engine hits)

Second, this is not actual proof...its a way to verify proof. Actual proof is something akin to a fraps of your test. Much the same as my proof would require. This is why I used terms like experience and anecdotal evidence. Until there is hard numbers it isn't proof.

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But you can fly, and you can test flight speed. Which I did, just to verify my notes from a few years ago. I performed exactly the same tests with this recent examination of engine mechanics that I performed back then. I flew up to a landing spot on the War Wall, leveled and centered the camera for each run, then hit autorun and the stopwatch timer at the same time.

Straight course, no deviation up, down, left or right, north to south in IP: 1:43
Swooping and diving course, using the space bar and X key, north to south in IP: 2:22

This is why I asked about your testing. You have added an additional step in your second test. The x key.

Try testing it without it. Keep powers that influence jump speed or height the same on both tests as it influences the vertical movement.

I want to assure you that I did infact test this a long way back.

My investigations were to understand was why it seemed I went faster using the jump key than I did with mouse camera movement.

How I tested this was I set up fraps to record (at that time I loved fraps for some reason used it for everything) and had the loc onscreen....I set a character to autorun for a distance while I hit the jump button. I then took the same character and had him start roughly from the same spot...set auto run while I used mouse camera movement to go up. I took both videos and edited them so that both started at the same x axis spot and lasted exactly 30 seconds. The one who used the jump button exclusively was much further on the x axis than the other after those 30 seconds. The first test surprised me and I thought I had actually travel sideways a bit on the mouse camera control test. I set up a guide with some clamps and a board (similar to how you set up a guide for using a table saw) and retested (which was very stupid once I realized that I could just look at the y axis in the loc)...results were similar.

Keep in mind I have not yet gone back into Titan to test this again. I will later today or tomorrow.

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Okay, well, my "anecdotal" evidence is verifiable by everyone, and yours is conclusively proven to be erroneous..

I know I inadvertently upset you but please understand that as of right now neither of us has proven anything. You have provided a means for us to provide proof but have not actually proved anything. This is why I call it anecdotal evidence.

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No, I don't think it's a factor. As I very clearly and plainly stated, spawn draw distance was more than sufficient to allow players to spot potential trouble and divert around them, and we had 14 levels to learn how to accomplish that before exercising the option to select a travel power. Those of us who skipped travel powers worried about accidentally blundering into spawns about as much as those of you with travel powers worried about running out of endurance or being de-toggled and blundering into a spawn..

Again you have missed what I was saying. I used the term combat avoidance then compared it to your statement that if the hurdler was in combat he would be delayed. This was to show you that the hurdler went side to side avoiding (hence the avoidance in my statement) combat. This resulted in an overall slower speed to the destination as each little jump to the side added a bit of distance to destination just as you say going up or down does with fly. It may not be as drastic as what you think will happen with fly but it happens in greater frequency. This is why combat avoidance should be taken into consideration.

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That's right, it's simply math. Your maximum flight speed of 58.6 mph decreases in relation to the horizontal axis when you're moving along the vertical axis, thereby increasing your travel time (and, again, anyone who cares to test this for him/herself can do so with Tequila). Your forward speed also decreases when strafing left or right while flying, and turning to the left or right has the exact same effect, again increasing your travel time. So regardless of whether you fly up and forward to a certain altitude, then level off and fly straight forward, then descend as you approach your destination; or fly close to street level and swerve to avoid obstacles, the end result is the same, you reach your destination later than you would have if you could have maintained your maximum speed flying in a perfectly straight ilne. As there were no zones in which one could simply hit autorun at ground level and not run into obstacles (terrain, walls or buildings), a Flier had to sacrifice speed to reach any destination, anywhere..

This is another misleading way to look at the issue.

When I said that long distances are a factor it was in relation to fly vs hurdle which I specifically pointed out. What I am saying is that if I accept your idea of a loss of speed when traveling up and down how far would the travel have to be before fly overtakes hurdle in overall speed.

Gotta break out the math for this I guess.

We agree that fly is 58.6/s and hurdle is 52/s. Can we agree that a stipulation is that the flyer wants to go up a nice even number of 100 which adds 200 total to the trip. Now lets say the mission door is 400 away.

The hurdler will take 7.69 seconds to reach the door. The flyer it will take 11.54 seconds. The hurdler is reaches the destination quicker. About 25% quicker.

Now lets say the mission door is 1600 away.

The hurdler will take 30.77 seconds to reach the door but the flyer only takes 30.72 seconds.

This is what I was trying to say. Even if everything you say is correct there is a tipping point where fly will get there quicker. This is why long distance is a consideration.

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but the short time when there is a loss of speed going up or down (making hurdle the faster travel).

You're beginning to get your "facts" mixed up. You said there was no loss of speed, now you're saying there is, and below this, you say there isn't because you "tested" it.).

This is misleading as it refers to a complete statement broken into segments. That do not reflect the entire thought.

The full statement was

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I won't bore you with a large equation here but the short time when there is a loss of speed going up or down (making hurdle the faster travel) would be counter by the longer time when fly was faster. This does not take into account that the loss of speed going up or down with fly would not actually make hurdle faster or the fact that my own experience with fly was it did not loose speed going up or down..

As you can see I used you thought of loss of speed going up and down to show that long distance travel does have an effect and then reaffirmed my original position. In no way do I change my position. Above I explain further what I had meant by this very statement.

I think I understand why you did this, to prove a point you make later. I hope my apology and desire to carry on a discussion is enough to move forward with.

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You're making the argument that someone who exhibits lazy behavior with one travel power must be indicative of all players' behavior with all modes of transit? Seriously?.

That's not even close to what I am saying. This statement was in relation to how fly had advantages that would factor in. Someone with fly as a travel power would be able to take a break from the computer long enough to grab a drink or go to the bathroom without it stopping forward movement. Just as you use behavior in the use of fly I did as well.

Let me give you an example.

The flyer and hurdler both are at the entrance to faultline and the next mission is in area past dam. You both decide to get a drink. The flyer quickly flys up and hits auto run. If the hurdler were to hit autorun not only would he not hurdle he would get stuck on geometry fairly quickly. This is a common behavior when having fly as a travel power.

That is why is should be considered.

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And due to the short length of the jumps, that loss in speed is extremely brief. As I said above, it does decrease jump speed, but Hurdle's jumping characteristics were short, shallow leaps, not enormous bounds, and Hurdlers could maintain a relatively straight path even when accounting for terrain variations, spawns and large obstacles, resulting in little actual loss of speed in relation to the distance traveled..

You do not think all the times a hurdler has to travel to the side to avoid something add up to something measurable, even in trial zones where mobs and terrain make going straight difficult. I just cannot agree with your reasoning.

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I can see that your math is off. So can everyone who cares to test it themselves.

I showed my math and the numbers I used to get there. They even assumed that you were correct about the fly and going up speed loss which I still do not agree with. You gave me numbers I have to go and verify if they are correct.

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I wasn't aware that I was only allowed a single reason for anything. Someone forgot to forward me the memo explaining that I needed your permission. Ever so sorry about that. Perhaps you should have a word with your staff..

I didn't say you did. I said I did not know that you considered that important. I further went on to say you are correct.

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You hoped to convince me that I could have or should have taken travel powers on some of my characters? When did my choices become your concern?.

It was never my concern....it was part of the topic of discussion as you asked at the beginning if you could get something like hurdle in CoT. By pointing out a travel power that could give you everything you had previously said you wanted you could see that even if acrobatics in CoT did not measure up to what you want maybe you could use that games version of Super Jump. When you pointed out how you did not want to spend a power choice on it I said I should not have bothered.

I will admit that that my choice of the word bothered was due to the fact I was frustrated that people have been giving you answers to your questions (Doctor Tyche telling you about acrobatics, myself and Static breaking down the numbers for you) and you show no gratitude. So when I again offered you a possible alternative to what you want and you blow it off my thought was why bother helping this guy.

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Well, no, none of that is true. I've been very consistent. You've attempted to take things out of context and use them to make it appear that I lack consistency, you've dismissed everything I've said without providing any actual evidence or facts to disprove my statements, you separate everything I say into discrete components and pretend they're completely unrelated, even when in the same sentance....

As I said I misunderstood the type of conversation we were having. I was teasing you slightly, this is why I finished off with the never heard of you comment.

Im not sure where I have done any of the things you say I have done. Perhaps a friendly PM pointing them out so I can avoid it in the future.

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I share data that I and other people gathered, and you throw it out with the accusation of it being "anecdotal" (this is where we get back to that), then, when I point out that very knowledgeable people would've corrected me when I said exactly the same things in the Co* forums, you say I'm dropping names (which is incorrect, as i never claimed them as friends, simply said that they would've posted to tell me i was wrong if i had been)..

That's exactly why I say it is anecdotal. You say this and you say that but cant show me actual evidence of any of it.I did read the CoH forum often and have no memory of you or anything about a thread wherein it details testing of flight vs hurdle in the manner you state. I know what my experience is and none of which lines up with your accounts. I only have your word of it being fact. The only thing you have given is link to Titan and called it proof. Just going by your description of the test you conducted I can see that we are not going to look at the same thing.
I plan on going back into Titan and checking it out again. But what if I come back and still say I am right. Its just my word....its not proof. So as of right now here is the progression of arguments....you made a claim....I made a counter claim....you point at a testing method and I am left to prove my claim.

Again I would like to discuss this but all I ask is that we move on from any perceived insults.

islandtrevor72
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Well I tested and found it to

Well I tested and found it to be the same as I remembered it. The problem is my test was not exactly definitive.

What I did was take a character with fly and use jump to rise straight up and time it and then with the second character I used auto run and jump to rise to the ceiling and timed it. They were not exact but the difference was so low as to be human reaction variations. I did this 10 times each.

As all I was trying to prove was the fact that using jump to rise with fly was separated from flys forward movement I am satisfied with my results. It wasn't a scientific test though. There were a few things that could have influenced the results. As I said...human reaction being the big one but there is also how if there is a difference in speed between going straight up and going at an angle how much is the difference.....was the ceiling high enough to show a large difference in time if the difference in speed was minimal.

Up to you to test it or not.

Mask-of-Many
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Just a thought, but since

Just a thought, but since travel powers will presumably have various "skins" and such, would things like jet packs, Batman-style grapnels, vehicles, etc. suit you Luminara? (Also, I'm not sure what you mean by travel powers distancing you from the ebb and flow of the environment; maybe it's because I've been playing DCUO, and their travel powers actually do a lot right - superspeed having vertical movement & jump enhancement, for instance - but I've only felt like I was missing out on the environment when flying high (which I rarely do, but I'm not exactly a standard DCUO player in a lot of respects).

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Lothic
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Mask-of-Many wrote:
Mask-of-Many wrote:

Master of the forbidden art of thread necromancy!

At least you're living up to your signature phrase - you just necroposted to a nearly 4 year old dead thread...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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In MoM’s defense, at least

In MoM’s defense, at least the necropost added something new to the thread. Though a new thread with a link to the old thread would have been preferable.

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In MoM's...offense? He or she

In MoM's...offense? He or she necroposted a question to someone who hasn't been online for almost 4 years. I doubt they will be answering...lol

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

In MoM's...offense? He or she necroposted a question to someone who hasn't been online for almost 4 years. I doubt they will be answering...lol

Good point.

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I, uh... did not notice the

I, uh... did not notice the date on the previous post.

Wow. I really outdid myself. Sorry about that, everyone! Carry on!

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