During our re-work with costume data, we have been running into the question lately:
[b] How much clipping is REALLY important for the player? [/b]
When Champions Online "Unlocked" and gave the players the ability to clip multiple pieces together, it proved rather successful than a failure, and we were thinking about the prospects of having a 100% clipping-allowed Character Generator rather than one that has occasional limits
Let me give you an example:
[i] You (t.Player) choose a hairstyle for your character and you want to put on a hat. But your hair clips through the piece! Now you, as the player, may have to look for more appropriate hairstyles that will not poke through your hat. Is this an acceptable scenario for you? [/i]
Another one.
[i] You (t.Player) choose a Beard for your character and you want to put on a mask. But your Beard clips through the piece! Now you, as the player, may have to look for more appropriate beards that will not poke through your mask. Is this an acceptable scenario for you? [/i]
So yes, let me hear your thoughts.
I will personally be monitoring this thread as well for potential responses. Please keep it civil. :)
Charles Logan
www.cloganart.com
is there no way to be able to toggle "yes clip" "no clip"?
or is that just far to much sass for a character creator at launch.
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I'd be fine with either examples.
I'd be more worried that if there's a lot of items that can clip it will look unprofessional as a product to those who aren't aware that's it's not a bug, but a feature.
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Thanks for offering this important line of discussion.
Basically I think that "a certain amount" of allowed clipping would be fine for CoT. It should be clearly pointed out that some cases of clipping can actually provide constructive/positive side effects that look good. I think it would be virtually impossible for the Devs to prevent ALL possible cases so the goal should be to prevent only the most overtly unworkable cases.
So to follow-up with your examples I suspect a full mohawk would likely "rip" through most hats and not look good. On the other hand if the hairstyle in question involved a ponytail it's possible that certain hats might not clip the tail too badly and might be acceptable looking together. As to the beard/mask deal it's likely that most beards would likely not work with most masks, but again like anything else there could be a few notable exceptions.
A lot of this will likely boil down to case-by-case situations and even then a given "clip combo" might look fine to some players and look bad to others". Unfortunately from the Dev point of view there's probably not a simple way to determine which combos would be universally acceptable and which might be questionable.
As a point of historical commentary there were many who felt the CoH Devs were for the most part [b]too conservative[/b] when it came to this issue. There were a number of situations where certain costume clip combos probably would have looked acceptable if only the Devs of that game had allowed those combos to be possible in the first place. I don't say this in hopes that you will be totally laissez-faire when it comes to this in CoT. I still feel that some combos will likely need to be restricted/prevented. But let's say on a scale from 1 to 10 (1 being no control and 10 being hyper restrictive) I felt the Devs of CoH were like at a 7 or 8. The Devs of CoT need to be more like at 3 or 4. Hope that makes sense.
It's a legitimate point that if there's "too much" clipping it might look bad for the game overall. But again I would point out that the CoH Devs [b][i]almost[/i][/b] had a good handle on this issue. If the CoT Devs can find a spot that's just "slightly less restrictive" than CoH was that'd probably be just about perfect when it comes to this issue.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
In my professionally unprofessional opinion, I don't like clipping usually, but Champions Online recently gave me an appreciation for it. So... I'll go with a tentative no clipping for now, unless I can see images in-game of clipping that make me change my mind. Sorry lol, that's probably very unhelpful.
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Actually it probably is. CoT should be pushing the limit on allowing [i]all[/i] items to be free to clip because again it would actually be [b]impossible[/b] for them to prevent [i]all[/i] clipping regardless. But as always there will probably be a few clip cases that would be considered "universally ugly" by everyone and it's that small subset that should eventually be prevented by the Devs.
As it turns out most of this will likely have to be determined via the trial and error of a bunch of players experimenting with what's possible and then reporting anything that's seriously bad... Pretty much what a beta test period is designed for. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'll use the Apkallu update as my example. Someone pointed out clipping in the arm webbing (I think that's where it was). I didn't notice until they pointed it out. Didn't bother me at all after seeing it.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
For the most part, I'd prefer that MWM provide the options and leave it up to the players to decide what they find acceptable. However...
I think Project_Hero has a good point here. It won't look good if the majority of items have clipping issues with one another, especially given that MWM has been touting the layering capabilities we'll have. If the majority of lower layers show through the majority of upper layers, that probably won't be a good thing. But if, for example, about 20% of specific combinations have issues, I think we can probably live with that.
In general (you knew I had to say this...) I'm more upset by the common usage today of 'clipping' as the opposite of its actual meaning than the clipping issues themselves. :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.
I think hair clipping was the reason hats in CO could only go with a few hairstyles. I'd prefer a wider choice of hairstyles that don't clip much with hats, or more hats that go with a wider choice of hairstyles without clipping much. Deliberate clipping sounds like it could be fun, so i suppose we don't have to try too hard to eliminate clipping.
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I'm of the opinion that this should be a player designated thing.Earlier the idea of a mohawk clipping through hits was brought up, and I can think of four potential ways for the game to handle it that are interesting.
1. Clips right on through. If this is the case, it probably looks kinda bad so most players won't do it, but it's completely present regardless
2. The game auto-detects what parts of the hairstyle would clip through the hat, and cancels those parts out, but allows the mohawk to peek out at the back of the head. This'd actually be good for the game as it'd allow a variety of outfit options to augment the way they stack on each other. You like that flowing cape, but hate the collar? put a pair of pauldrons on it and problem solved!
3. Hairstyles all have two formats - one that's "uncompressed", and one that's "compressed". This means that a hairstyle that's uncompressed is standard and designed as it's supposed to be - so a poytail hairstyle looks normal, hair hangs around the head normally, all that jazz. Meanwhile, if you put a hat on the ponytail hairstyle, it'll cover all the top-of-the-head hair under the hat, but hanging from the back of the head could still be the ponytail, as the hairstyle converts to its "compressed" version. Final Fantasy 14 does this, and it works very well, feeling much more professional than option 4.
4. The Baldness option. Putting on a hat of any kind eliminates your hairdo, rendering your character bald. This... is not optimal.
I'd personally vote for option 3. It increases the work that needs to be done for each hairstyle, but gives a broader range of things without working on a subsystem like #2 needs to have happen.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Pretty sure they aren't talking about different "layers" clipping with each other so that underlying ones peek through but rather mainly items on the same "layer" that partially overlap each other.
@in general
Don't think I can add anything more than what Lothic and Halae has said.
Im more of the opinion that the less clipping the better. If something is allowed but doesnt look the best, its low priority on an update/fix list, than something that isnt there at all.
As a workable example:
If hat X work best as bald and really only looks good with 1 hairstyle, but because of clipping technically has 32 differnt combo options, it will less likely be focused on as a fix than if hat x literally only had 2 viable combinations, and could be given more that work without error as soon as time allows.
Personal opinion seems to vary, but I think clipping looks cheap, and would rather not see a cascade of clipped capes, mustaches, hats, etc running around the game world.
Since last night I've thought about this thread a bit more and it basically seems like cloganart is specifically asking the playerbase:
[b]Would you mind if players decided for themselves if clipped combos look acceptable and not automatically assume that they are "bugs" in the game?[/b]
If that's the case then I'm willing to accept dealing with clipping scenarios in general and I'm willing to decide for myself if I would want them to exist on my characters or not.
Again I'll stress that I think the Devs should probably still be involved in preventing the absolute worst/overt cases of clipping. But all things being equal I (as the player) would rather have the final decision about "what looked good on my character" than the Devs.
Now I realize that with great powers comes great responsibility. If the CoT Devs truly implement what they are calling a "100% clipping-allowed Character Generator" then that will enable the possibility of people having costumes that are HORRIBLY CLIPPED and thus look HORRIBLE either on purpose or because some player might not know any better. I'm willing to tolerate the occasional "eye sore" costume as a compromise for the mature responsibility for handling my own clipping situations as I see fit.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
(French player, i use a translator)
I find that this kind of detail can have importance unlike the City of Heroes era.
If the number of elements subjected to clipping remains "low" and there are several costume locations as on City of Heroes we players can make the effort to remove our own hair (bald) and other facial hair when we decide to equip a full mask for example. It's simple and for those wishing to enjoy clipping, it's always possible, so I'm for your script !
Then, if there are bases like on City of Heroes for our super group, let's not forget that it allowed us to create walls with furniture, and full of other objects by nesting them one in the others.
The most important thing is that this clipping does not stick a sloppy game image to the back of city of titans for its future communication.
Clipping REALLY only bothers me with stuff like hairstyles clipping through collars or capes clipping through clothes. Other clipping doesn’t really bug me but when clothing “floats through” other clothing rather than interacting with it, I struggle to ignore it and it can really pull me out of the moment.
But that’s me. Other people might be totally fine with it, and I can love with it - I just won’t wear “offending” gear - but if the option were present I would turn off the clipping if only for capes and collars.
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Some clipping is not a problem. As others have mentioned, if you have to work to avoid clipping[color=red]*[/color] or clipping becomes the norm, it will most likely look quite disruptive and unprofessional. Just as we won't have access to all sliders, and perhaps even the full range of the sliders we will see, I think it's a bad idea to leave this entirely up to players.
If there's some clipping with wearing a hat over long hair, or something like a ponytail, that's one thing. Spiked hair poking through a beret or a derby sitting inside a big afro is something else. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, of course, [i]if[/i] that's the aesthetic MWM wants.
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I'm pretty much accepting of a certain amount of clipping. The issue I had with CoX was the limit of hairstyles if you wore hats. I agree with Halae and Lothic, where if you selected to have a hat, there would still be a selection of hair that could work with a hat. Like Lothic said, I would like to have an option for a female character to have a pony tail coming out the back of a cap.
I think its better to allow people to use costume pieces they like and decide if they care about the clipping on their own, rather than try to limit our choices for the sake of demanding a minimum of clipping. Also, in places where clipping does exist and can be eliminated, that sounds like a job for "quality of life updates" moving forward, not something that ought to prohibit the roll out of whole new thing when you've got it ready.
So basically, let there be clipping, and let the fans decide when to complain about it and then try to reduce/eliminate it where possible after that.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Generally speaking I don't think anyone actually likes "clipping" [b][i]unless[/i][/b] it produces a side-effect that's unexpectedly beneficial.
Again I think the concept to think about here is having the freedom as players to make things as WE want them. We should have the responsibility to know what "looks good" and what "looks bad" without the Devs interfering with that unless absolutely necessary.
The problem here is that I don't really think that "clipping" is something the Devs can just trivially turn on/off.
The Devs can't account for every single possible clipping combo and it's likely too hard to make all the items react "appropriately" in all scenarios. Think of it this way: If the Devs could ever give us a "clip toggle button" to cleanly turn it on or off then there would have likely never been the whole issue of "clipping" in games like this the first place.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I don't think I've ever been really bothered by clipping because I just accepted it as a limitation of the medium and I could usually find a combo that I found acceptable. So I guess I prefer more freedom to explore what I find acceptable than less.
One thing I [i]do[/i] remember finding annoying in CoH was the way they handled baseball caps.
I usually had longish hair but if I wore a baseball cap, it came with it's own short hairstyle poking out the back that overrode the hairstyle I had selected.
I don't remember if any other hats did that.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Most of the time (IIRC) CoH basically forced your character to become bald when you wore a hat. The hat effectively "cancelled" out any hair you had otherwise selected. It mostly worked (if the hat in question was big enough) but there were many hats that didn't fully cover the head and left the obvious "baldness" very, well, obvious.
The ideal situation would be to allow any hat to be placed over any hair and have the hair react "accordingly" as it does IRL. But in practice that's probably a nightmare scenario as far as how a Dev would get that to work without clips.
As a compromise though if the Devs let any hair exist with any hat and let us players decide if the net effect was "acceptable" then we'd probably still have a lot of clipping but perhaps at least a few combos would work. It's getting to have a chance at those few workable combos that's the "win" as far as us players are concerned.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
To my opinion, in this question, is whether character clipping is important to you. Enabling clipping generates additional calculations on the player's machine because it will have to calculate all the edges of the object to define the contours and know what should or should not protrude, add to that the animations and calculations become important.
But there is also a graphic dimension. When objects intersect, they also give us (and despite themselves) the possibility to combine objects to give a style, or even create a costume. Who has never used the clipping effect to protrude ends of one object over another to create an effect they like? That is also what we are talking about here.
So... i don't really know what to say but on one hand, i think about people who don't have a really good computer and who will gain probably some fluidity with the clipping off, but in another hand i think it's better to not have a beard over a mask :) Really i don't know !
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Warframe has some X, Y, Z axis controls for some of their costume pieces, so if you encounter clipping, you can adjust accordingly. Perhaps some version of the aformentioned control schema could be implemented?
And to answer the OP; unless the clipping is horrendous, I don't really mind all that much.
I'll just throw in my two cents and say I'm in agreement with the general trend of this thread. I'm not super sensitive to clipping, and if it's a matter of "include it or don't" due to mild clipping (power or costume item), I'd rather have it and then choose not to use it if the clipping bothers me. Apologies to Cinnder for the egregious misuse of the term in this post :P.
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It honestly doesn't bother me. I play for the abilities primarily, but i agree that too much clipping may give a bad first impression for new players.
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I prefer as little clipping as possible.
To add to this, remember that the devs have to tell each object how to interact. Basically, a computer doesn't know an object is there unless it's told it's there, and that goes for every object. It's similar to how weird things happen if stuff isn't "weighted" properly (update: [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/2066126]How it's Made: Weighting the Model[/url]) or even how there are sometimes "holes" in the world. It's pretty much the same reason they can't simply draw an arm as a tentacle to create a tentacle. Technically I suppose it would be a tentacle, except that it would behave exactly like a human arm.
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Even at the expense of a number of combos that might actually look acceptable even though they are technically "clipping" each other?
Look as I said before I get that "clipping" is something that generally not a good thing and all things being equal I'd like the game to avoid it as much as possible. But if this game adopts a strongly conservative stance on the matter (like I felt CoH did too much of) we'll end up (again like in CoH) where they do drastically arbitrary things like remove most hair styles while also wearing hats. I'd rather have the choice to choose if combos like that look bad -myself- rather than have the Devs automatically "assume" these things for me and thus limit my design choices.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
i really want to know if players can have a toggle for clipping or not.
have it toggled default to "no clipping"
that way people opt in for clipping to test combos.
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Toggle clipping may be ideal, but when it comes to character models, I've mostly been against them. Sometimes, I'll accept many other kinds of visual glitches before clipping. It's only been recent as I've made use of clipping in games that let you work on a personal space that I've seen some good in it. When you can clip items together and come up with something unique and without any sort of flicker.
I think where it wouldn't make sense, I'd rather it was restricted. Say the mask and beard example. If the mask would cover the beard, then no clipping. If the beard would push the mask aside or make it look like it wouldn't fit, no clipping. But if it were a couple of armor pieces, say two shoulder parts that make things look like something new and original, that would be fine with me.
No. If we could do that, we wouldn't even need one.
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then i vote to allow clipping.
if someone wants a design with no clipping they can change the beard to a no beard.
If i want my hero to look like santa with a gasmask... let me.
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I remember. Sick in the old game, a costume contest with points awarded for unique / good looking use for clipping. Taking two pieces that normally wouldn’t go together and leveraging how they clip to create unique designs.
When it comes to hair and hats though...
There isn’t a way to tell hair to auto adjust to hats
There isn’t away to tell hair and hats auto-disallow if they clip.
It takes a Designer to model each hair style, check it with hats, if the rule was “don’t let hair clip” they would have to have tech make a database for the designer to label each hair piece and hat that can go together and the ones not on the list won’t.
Then, that designer needs to gauge which hair styles that won’t work due to clipping, but could work if the hair style was made with a hat, and make both the hair and hat combo it’s own single piece.
Then make hair / hat combos that are unique just combos.
Personally (and I have no day in this myself), I would:
Limit body clipping through costumes to be minimal as possible. Our update with the arm-wings and netted mesh is a good example of minimal clipping. Perhaps unobtrusive, nothing immediately obvious is ok.
Cloth should clip minimally as well.
All other costume pieces should be allowed to clip.
Don’t allow hair and hats to clip.
Make hair / hat combos and evrn if it is more work.
That is my (non dev) personal opinion on the matter.
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This was basically my point from earlier in the thread. If there was a magical way to have a "toggle clipping off" button then there'd be a way to make clipping automatically "not a thing" to worry about in games like this in the first place.
Clipping (despite Cinnder's definition of it) is generally an "unintended side-effect interaction" of having two or more body/costume elements next to each other. You can't generally make a "control button" that would toggle a case-by-case, semi-subjective unintended/unanticipated effect on and off.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
As i read all those posts, a lot of people are thinking that clipping is not a big problem unless it concerns the head part.
Maybe you could configure the clipping to be off for the head but let it on for the other parts ?
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Well the main reason for it being centered around hats is that the hat and hair interaction is the place that lends itself to the highest potential for "clipping issues". If we do get material choices that are essentially energy constructs (with a high translucency?) then I can see clipping being a viable "option" for hats and hairs as well.
So maybe be the hair can be 100% translucent for all the parts which are "over" the hat ? I mean, maybe it is possible to set a button to toggle the visibility of the pieces that stick out ?
even, maybe it's possible to set a button to toggle the visibility of those parts dependaning of the costume part ? i.e the head, the arms, the shoulders, etc... It's probably impossible to developp this kind of thing (since it means to know what is sticking out).
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Unfortunately the problem of clipping is not something that can be solved as easily as you might think. Remember it's not just an issue for this one game - clipping has been an issue for computer games since pretty much the beginning of computer games. If there was an "easy" solution for it somebody would have found it by now.
As it's been pointed out several times now it's not something you can really just turn on or off with a simple toggle switch.
I think you're starting to get the idea here. I'm sure the Devs of CoT will do their best to minimize the problem but the point of this thread is really to ask us players how we want to deal with the leftover clipping that they [b][i]can't[/i][/b] prevent.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Unfortunately, i think i begin to understand :/
So... to me, whatever the dev will do, it should follow the philosophy of CoT : allow people to customize their character.
Taking that as a base : let the clipping like it is and we'll deal with it (while the dev give us some possibilities like both a hair cut and the hair cut to use with a "hat" - i.e a haircut without a top side-. For other clipping issues, i don't know :D)
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While clipping has historically been an issue for games that let players get creative (and sometimes even when they didn't if a game wasn't very polished) there are games that have done a great job at dealing with the issue.
Check out the way sea of thieves handles characters and the various outfits, hair styles, accessories, tattoos, etc.
This thread specifically mentions issues that spring for hair and hats, and that game seems to do a decent job of making hair and hats work together regardless of how silly the hair and hat in question are with little to no clipping.
I'm curious now. I'd love to chat with rare devs about how they approached the issue.
I fall fairly squarely into the "allow clipping and let the player decide" camp.
I do have one MAJOR pet peeve, though: That's when you have a costume pieces, or a costume set designed to go together, and parts from it clip with themselves! This is a fairly common problem with gear in SWTOR. Half the time it seems like they only test these items on one of the four body sizes (per gender), and thus the piece only actually works on that body type.
Example:
You'll clearly note that the thigh armor and the belt clip right through the overcoat from the armor set they were designed to go with.
This. Drives. Me. Insane.
*Disclaimer, This is a preview image, I have no idea what it looks like/if they've fixed it in-game, as I would never be able to afford this set in the first place. This was simply an example I could think of off the top of my head. There are many others that have had longstanding issues.
I would imagine that "how much clipping a given game has" probably depends a lot on the exact collection of items that could possibly be "clipable" and how much time the particular Devs spend to "file down the rough edges" to make their particular set of items behave nicely.
Also I suspect your average superhero game is simply going to have a lot more "disjoint" pieces than say a game like Sea of Thieves. As I understand it Sea of Thieves is -just- a pirate game with pirate-oriented stuff. A game like CoT is going to be expected to provide items from all sorts of historical, modern, sci-fi and fantasy settings which are likely going to be intrinsically "less compatible" by default.
I honestly don't fault the CoT Devs for whatever degree of clipage will remain in the game because they have a pretty tall order to make as many things work together as possible. I assume they will do their best to keep the clips to a minimum regardless.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yeah one would hope if you're wearing a fully integrated outfit that elements of it would at least not clip with itself in any game. Obviously if you start mix-matching parts from multiple outfits then all bets are off. But if that's -not- the case you shouldn't have to deal with -any- clipping.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
In the case of hats, I'd prefer they just give multiple hairstyles to go along with the hat.
Never understood why games don't do this, as it's increases the outfit options with less work.
Sounds like having a bunch of "hairstyles that work with hats without clipping" basically equals (time and effort wise) producing a bunch of extra hairstyles. My guess is that many games (namely CoH for one) couldn't justify the extra time/effort to come up with a bunch of extra relatively specialized "bald on top but hair on the sides" hairstyles.
I think CoT will basically be less conservative about it and do what you're saying with the caveat that [b]a lot[/b] of them WILL clip. We just have to decide for ourselves if we like that or not.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm not saying have every hairstyle with every hat.
However, one can do short/long/pony tail/pig tails/bald for instance, so people get a bit more variation with the hats, and can likely find a closer match to their style of hair for when using a hat.
If I pick a long hair style, I don't want to put a hat on and the hair becomes short. Same with short hair becoming long.
However, if I get an Elsa hair style and then put on a hat that makes it look like a regular pony tail, I won't be upset.
Will there be emotes that allow you to take your hat off?
Will *most* hats cover the same amount of hair/the head (ie everything above the top of a normal ear is covered)?
There could be multiple versions of hair style that just remove the bits that are covered by the hat (assuming q.2 above is yes). This however fails if q.1 above is yes.
If I choose a high ponytail and a hat let it clip. My choice. Otherwise I'll choose a low ponytail.
At launch I don't really care if there is much clipping. Although I would expect the serious cases to be fixed at some point.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
As was mentioned before, the only really annoying clipping IMO is hairstyles through collars/body pieces and capes. Everything else (generally) is up to players to responsibly put together costumes.
Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die.
Protect the pack kid, no matter how much it hurts. If everyone else in the pack is safe, you can carry on or die knowing you've done your duty. - Fanfiction
That's a good question. Even many "typical fantasy" MMOs that aren't extremely big into costume options often have at least a "remove helmet" toggle option.
How's this for an idea for CoT:
To start with everyone gets a "hair without hat" option. This is the standard hair selection every character has assuming no hat/helmet is involved.
Then of course everyone gets to have an option to wear a hat/helmet. If a character wears a hat/helmet this will enable a new toggle switch that will provide two major options: either A) make their "default hair" disappear (like CoH mostly handled things) [b]or[/b] B) keep the original default hair with the hat/helmet at the same time.
This should actually work for all hat/hair combos because either A) most of them cover enough of the head to make all the default hair "non-visible" anyway [b]or[/b] B) the player could decide if their default hair actually "works" with the hat/helmets despite any/all clipping.
Now if a player chooses the "A" option from above (remove default hair when wearing a hat/helmet) the game could then provide for a few standardized "hair + hat/helmet" options to cover up any small bit of exposed head that might remain from this. This would be the alternative to the "B" option that may often involve too much hair clipage. I think this was basically what Brand X was suggesting.
So finally almost as a beneficial side effect the character will always have both a "default hair selection" and a optional hat/helmet established so that whenever they chose to invoke the "remove helmet" emote the game will react accordingly.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I get that "hair clipping through collars/body pieces and capes" was annoying in CoH. But assuming we may still have some issues like that in CoT isn't it -still- the "player's responsibility" to decide to which combos are acceptable or not regardless of which costume items you're talking about?
I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather the game let us decide which combos like that work together instead of trying to arbitrarily limit our choices based on the "potential" for clipage.
P.S. Since hair is supposed to "animate" in CoT it should actually be -less- likely to clip the way you're referring to. The main reason hair often clipped in CoH was that it was static (just like a helmet would be). If the hair can now "move around" like real hair does it should be less prone to clip through collars/body pieces.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Thinking more on it, with CoT those specific clipping issues that drive me insane won't be a problem here. The ones that always bugged me were clipping with iconic or static armor pieces and a system where we couldn't change costume pieces readily.
Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die.
Protect the pack kid, no matter how much it hurts. If everyone else in the pack is safe, you can carry on or die knowing you've done your duty. - Fanfiction
I don't mind some clipping, in fact I've used some clipping to combine items for a different look. In the OP examples, as long as their are alternatives that don't clip I think it would be great. That gives players the option.
(insert pithy comment here)
I will return on what i said : I have no problem with clipping on my character except for everything regarding the head area and the cape (which could cut my knees !)
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Yes to clipping. CO has the best creation device ever, period. Some of my greatest masterpieces were made by clever clipping. If any potential players dislike clipping, DCUO is the game for them. Just don't ask for much in the way of customes because they will tell you "It clips, we cannot do it" hehe.
I agree with the hair people though. Hair can get a little weird, but I am still ok with that even.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I don't mind stuff clipping through other stuff. I feel like it provides the player more options at character creation, even if it does add some extra labor. For costumes, it's OK in my mind for extra labor in exchange for extra options.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
I'm in favor of allowing players to customize our look without arbitrary rules on pieces we can choose based upon someone else's aesthetic preferences.
Even in games which attempt to limit choices to a dev-approved look-and-feel, some players will deliberately make "bad-looking" outfits - and we all end up ignoring these (as well as we can) in any case. I'd rather reward the ability of those who can find cool, not-yet-thought-of looks by allowing all costume combos. One example from CoH's early days: Inside-Out Girl. (Although there's no screenshot from the game I can find now, here's a bio of that character: http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Inside_Out_Girl.)
Like others, I would have preferred CoH cloaks didn't clip through long hair, however I would rather have that than not allowing long hairstyles at all because of that possibility.
Formerly wyldhunt of CoH; Guardianite since I2.
My vote goes to Allow!
Just like in life, there are no limits to the crazy mixtures or cool combinations of clothes in the world. While some may wish there actually were Fashion Police, there ain’t. Let the people wear what they want, good or bad. I agree that most people want to look their best, if they find the clipping ugly, they’ll change to a better selection...(or embrace the uniqueness.)
Meh. Bah!
Capes shouldn't clip through legs. Hair shouldn't clip through shoulders.
Armor/parts I attach should clip through each other so I can "build" and layer them up if I think it looks good.
Hair to hats- allow it and let the player decide if they like it. Be sure to include a couple base/texture styles in case they don't.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
This! I've used clipping many times to good effect in CoH and in Champions Online. However, the cape/legs and hair/shoulders combos are just bad.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
The closer the art style gets to "realism" the more clipping will stand out to the eye. A game that is abstract or more like "comic book art" will be more tolerable to clipping and poking through odd pieces through one another than one that aspires closer to photorealism.
I think that with our ability to select materials for different portions of costume items, we will be able to camouflage a lot of clipping to make it look like it was built that way.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Yeah, Champions Online showed me how useful clipping can be. I have two very unique and cool characters whose costumes absolutely required me to be able to do clipping. One character (who resembles an anthropomorphic robot beetle) came from accidentally clipping some pieces together and seeing a whole new design appear.
I learned this as well in CO. By making things the same color and material they blend together to look like they were meant to fit together. Mix horns and a facemask and suddenly you have a single Batman-style mask piece. Mix a backpack and wings and you have a jet pack. And so on.
Both Scenarios dont bother me very much. The first one more than the second one, depanding on the Mask. So:
Lets take a look in WoW, quite succesfull. It bothers me that you have no hair at all when you put on a Hat. Some stumbles yes but thats not the point. That bothers me, so it could bother me in your first scenario too. That means if there is no alternative. One alternative would be much work, you could 'flatten' the hair IF the Option Hat is aktivated, i cant remember where I saw that. Another option would be allowing some alternative Hair when the Hat is activated.
Scenario two is.. well.. why a Beard if you wear a Mask? That doesnt bother me very much.
Hope my Opinoon can help.
"Walking down the street and you hear that heavy beat. You can't help but walk your feet, down all the way 'til we meet"~
yeah it's way more important for me to have it than not, heck having a full mask with a beard I can make a creature whose mouth is made up of many hair like tendrils coming out of a large opening, like an Ould from Doctor who
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
It bothers me quite a bit. It's like an itch I can't scratch that progressively gets worse, like in those horror movies with... things.
of Phoenix Rising
Am I
I'm a fan of Champions Online, and my interest in City of Titans stems from its promise to outdo CO in terms of customizing. In that regard, I would strongly prefer CoT to err on the side of allowing clipping, giving the designer the freedom to decide what works and what doesn't. Yes, this will occasionally result in Avatars that look unprofessional, mainly due to designers who are either lazy or deliberately seeing how bad they can make it look. But I'd rather cope with that than to have a combination of costume parts be rejected due to anti-clipping policies.
As well, CO demonstrates that “clip griefers”, as it were, really aren't that much of a problem: you'll occasionally see a toon in CO that's obviously flaunting the freedom to clip; but for the most part, it's due to the novelty of being able to do so, and things settle down once the novelty wears off.
So this is something I just encountered while playing around with CoH's old character builder. The Carnival of Vengeance mask protrudes slightly from the face because, you know, it's a mask. But here's the thing - the Cybertech Eyes (#4) protrude from the face as well, and line up extremely well with the one of the Carnival masks, resulting in one of the best faces I've ever seen in City of Heroes, and one I wish I'd discovered back when the game was live.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/D6dmdyr.jpg[/img]
This is the sort of thing that doesn't work without clipping. This face wouldn't have been possible without the clipping of two interesting and completely disconnected costume pieces. A little more evidence that some clipping being allowed is a good thing.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
It's 2018. Clipping textures are a sin against video games and they need to be stamped out. I humbly ask that you please release a completely perfect game with zero clipping issues. Thank you.
I think you'll have to make it with clipping... If MWM wants to provide more customization as they can, they will probably be obliged to make clipping authorized.
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I think there's an acceptable limit to clipping and there are times when it looks more appropriate than others. I'll use my current character in WoW as some anecdotal support.
[img=400x150]http://oi65.tinypic.com/33pcwp0.jpg[/img]
The headpiece is a full hood and as you can see, the ears are poking out of the hood at the sides. This makes sense to me, since you'd either have to see the current model or the ears pressing against the inside of the hood. What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that you can see the eyebrows poking out of the hood, since they can easily be squished against the face of the model. I don't think it would feel right to have costume pieces be inaccessible with certain character features, or to require the hunt for an alternative, compatible piece to fit your desired aesthetic. If it could be optional at certain junctions, I'm sure that would only enhance the possibilities of costume design.
I think that clipping concerns only the character's features. i'm not sure the eyebrown, nose etc will be impact by the clipping.
On some pictures from MWM (on instagram) we saw that some eye gears could be set under a mask but it seems that the character's specifities like big nose, long ears... are not concerned by clipping.
That could be a good question for MWM : at which point clipping is set ?
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This. I don't know what people are referring to when they talk about clipping anymore. Clipping has always looked ugly and unprofessional and downgrades the quality of the graphics. Watching the most high-end games still having issues of someone's shoulders disappearing into their torso because the people who made the game can't be assed to prevent it makes me wonder why the heck people are praising such games for their graphics. We've come so far. There has to be a way to preserve whatever features people are talking about up there, without someone's face repeatedly phasing through their headwear in a manner that is undesirable.
This is just my opinion, but clipping textures makes the product look worse.
While I prefer stuff fitting well and not clipping in a messy way I do prefer the choice to add two clipping parts together over the lack of choice because of clipping.
In some cases clipping might even be desirable since the outcome might be something completely different than the parts each on their own.
While not character related I did A LOT of clipping tricks with my DCUO player home like making out-of-place looking trade stations look immersive like a part of a work desk computer (emulating ordering stuff online) or clipping two wall sized computers into each other looking like a plain wall to divide rooms or place some tiki table with an pineapple on top into a regular dinner table making it look like the dinner table is decorated with wood plate and an pineapple.
Well I mean sure, in a fantasy game or a game with equipment that you're expected to equip and change your cosmetics sure, but in a superhero game like this? Clipping just becomes another design element you can use to make your characters look cool. I mean sure enemy costumes shouldn't be clipping, but if I can get my characters costumes to clip in a certain way I can makw some cool looking dudes.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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Clipping also becomes another design flaw that ruins the use of costume parts and can make a character look worse. If I can't stop clipping to happen on my characters, I can't make some cool looking heroes.
It can work against people 100% there's just a chance it might work for some people. :p
I agree. Because some people might want to do weird things with clipping doesn't make it not an obstacle that look worse to virtually everyone else.
They'll do what they're going to do with the game, but I personally find it distracting, ugly, and unprofessional in most cases, and it's not just restricted to fantasy games. This is the first time I have EVER heard of clipping textures being desirable by ANYONE. I really think it's going to look bad to the overwhelming majority of players if they can't prevent it.
Why not make it prevented by default and allow people to toggle clipping on a given part if they want to make extremely specific costumes? That seems like the ideal solution.
While it certainly would be the ideal situation if we could toggle it on a per piece basis I'm fairly certain that the system isn't built to handle it in such a way. Building for such a system may be cost prohibitive at this point so they will most likely go with an all or nothing solution.
I'm confident the "amount of clipping" that CoT will allow will be kept within very reasonable limits. I honestly believe they will NOT allow the degree of clipping to be so large as to be anything to worry about. Basically I would be very surprised to see it be "as bad" as you're implying here.
Having said that I think it would be a gigantically huge waste of time and effort for MWM to try to eliminate/prevent 100% of clipping because that degree of "perfection" is never practical (or even possible) in a game like this. In effect MWM is very sensibly admitting that there will be some amount of costume item clipping in CoT and they are (as a company) being refreshingly "up front" about the issue with this thread. Again I'm completely sure that MWM will do their best to eliminate 99% of the most obvious clipping scenarios regardless. CoH had costume item clipping and I've never see anyone trying to make the case that it was a failure because of it.
Based on the fact that there are simply so many costume combinations possible in a game like this it's going to be effectively guaranteed that there will be some clipping that slips through the cracks. I don't feel it's worth the extra hundreds (thousands?) of extra manhours for MWM to track down every last clip combination. Obviously if players stumble upon some very egregious example of clipping during beta testing I'd expect MWM to address it. Beyond that if the game still ends up with "1% clippage" that would be well within the realm of acceptability. Again the "perfection" of 0% clippage is simply not a reasonable expectation for any game much less one like this that will be pushing the boundaries of costume combinations. If you feel that a game that has "any clippage" is somehow a complete failure (even in 2018) then be prepared to be disappointed with CoT.
Frankly I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with your concern over this. No one here wants CoT to have so much clipping as to "look bad" and it's not likely going to be anywhere close to that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Most reasonable levels of clipping are acceptable (hair vs helmets, beards vs masks, horns vs hats). Just try to keep down the most egregious cases:utility belt clips into thighs, shoulder pads cut into the neck, boot-tops clip into one another when character is standing still, and so forth. That slips out of the realm of "creative opportunity" and into "just looks bad".
Native of Triumph - Victory - Protector - Gladden - Dwarrowdelf - Tribble
Broad spectrum geek and Shadowy Advisor
Yes, my [u][url=https://www.deviantart.com/revanantmorituri]art gallery[/url][/u] is almost entirely screen captures. Tough.
They asked for input. I provided it. You don't have to agree, but this is my answer to what level of clipping is acceptable to me. I'm sorry we can't see eye to eye on this subject. We'll just have to have different views on this subject.
Exactly. As with most things the "amount" of clipping that we should expect to tolerate with CoT is a matter of reasonable degrees. I honestly don't think the CoT Devs will allow a level of clipping that's in the "just looks bad" spectrum - they aren't stupid after all.
For example I'm perfectly able (as a player) to handle things like not pairing a beard and a mask together if the beard happens to clip through the mask. I don't need the MWM Devs spending hundreds of hours trying to figure out how to make such a beard/mask combo work "perfectly" as one might expect IRL. Sure if the Devs can make that work without too much effort that'd be great, but if that's not easy to do then I don't see the need for the Devs to waste too much time on such cases.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm not "sorry" about your view on this versus mine. I'm simply telling you that you're asking for a kind of perfection in a computer game that NO ONE will ever be able to achieve even with millions of dollars or millions of man-hours to apply to it. Your "view" on this subject is a Holy Grail that's something worth striving for but it'll be totally unfair for you to fault MWM on when they -don't- achieve it.
Ironically I suspect given how conscientious the Devs of this game are that you'll likely have to struggle to find even one case of clipping in CoT that you won't be able to live with. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm a perfectionist. I'm aware of that. I want everything to be perfect even when I know it can't be. It nags at me every day of my life. I'm accustomed to things being imperfect, because everything is. That doesn't mean I stop wishing for perfection or striving to improve (and that can include trying to become better able to tolerate that things are imperfect, when it comes to improving myself).
I fully intend to play the game, no matter what they do on this subject. But these are my thoughts on clipping, based on my experiences, and I am NOT interested in arguing over an opinion. You can have your opinion, and I can have mine.
I'm trying to be diplomatic and respectful, because this seems like a great community, and one I want to be part of, especially when the game actually launches. Please just accept that we disagree, and let's move on. We have different tastes and preferences when it comes to this. We're allowed to. Our diverse backgrounds, perspectives, and interests are an asset, as long as they aren't harmful or disruptive.
They literally asked what our opinions are, and I gave mine: That I'd prefer no clipping or clipping we can toggle on a per-item/area basis. I'll still play the game regardless, and I don't expect to have any other experience than enjoyment when I do so. But this is the feedback I'm offering in response to the question posed, and I'm not changing it. Let's agree to disagree and look forward to when the game is live and we can find other features we are more likely to agree upon and enjoy. :)
For what it's worth I tend to default as a obsessive perfectionist IRL as well. But if my multi-decade computer science based career has taught me anything is that things like this will never be "perfect" in the way that either of us might desire.
I'm not really arguing over "opinions" here and I'm not even technically disagreeing with you either. In a "perfect world" games like this would not have any costume-based clipping and I'm quite sure the Devs of this game would agree with that as well. Perhaps the only real difference between your "view" here and mine is that I'm not going to count CoT as a total failure when it [b][i]still[/i][/b] has a few cases of clipping here or there.
Perhaps all I'm asking of you is to be willing to cut MWM some slack on the matter especially considering the "grassroots" nature of this game. Demanding perfection of MWM is simply not reasonable and it honestly made me think your original absolute demand for it was a "joke" of some kind.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Will do. I'm not going to complain if there's clipping. I am thrilled that these dedicated folks have spent all this time and energy to make a true spiritual successor at all. That it looks this good and is filled with this much hope and potential just makes it even better.
I apologize for being overly defensive. I was just tired of trying to defend my opinion as I'd already had to for several people before you. I fully one-hundred percent see how it can be useful and how it's not a game-killer by any means. Everyone made valid points. I just see something like Final Fantasy 15, which is supposed to have really great graphics, and look at Noxis's hair and go, "That looks awful. How can hair still look this bad with how far we've come? It doesn't look like hair." It's a struggle not to see the things that aren't perfect and obsess over that tiny thing instead of being grateful for everything else. I'm working on it.
But it's always going to bug me on some level, like an itch I can't scratch. That's, in essence, what I was trying to say. I fully acknowledge there are benefits to having clipping. I fully acknowledge it's not a big deal, and it can not ever be perfect, or is impractical to make it so. I'm still going to look at even City of Heroes' character creator, and go, "Jesus why is this dude's head and neck twisted around off-center from the torso it's attached to?" And then that's all I'll see when I look at it, at least for awhile. I can't unsee it.
It sounds like CoT's character creator will be way better, so I'll just stop trying to think up the worst case scenario, and focus on the positive.
Thinking up "worst case scenarios" is not necessarily a bad thing. Devs of games like these NEED people like you to think of "worse case scenarios" if for no other reason than to keep them on their toes. ;)
I will readily admit the main reason I took some exception to your original statement is that I abhor "absolutes" when it comes to discussions like this. Even when I agree that "no clipping" is a desirable ideal for a computer game the idea that any set of Devs must "achieve 100% perfection" simply rubs me the wrong way. I have no doubt the Devs of CoT will do their very best to "mitigate" clipping but like I said before I will not put them up against the wall if they don't "eliminate" it completely.
When people were discussing the "merits" of clipping earlier in the thread I think most were accepting that clipping would likely be an "unavoidable evil" since it could not be realistically eliminated 100%. Like you I imagine most people would rather it not be in the game at all. But if we must live with a game with -some- clipping I think most of us will be able to tolerate it as long as it's isolated to a few unique cases. Again I consider it refreshing that the Devs are essentially admitting (via this thread) that some clipping will be in their game regardless.
Anyway I'm sure CoT's char gen will be better than CoH's for the most part. I'm also sure it'll come with it's own set of "peculiarities" but as long as it's a net improvement we'll be OK.
P.S. Talking about things to "obsess" about I'm probably still famous (infamous?) for being involved in a very long running thread on this forum (it probably lasted at least 2+ years) about a certain topic that I'm not even going to mention here for fear of starting another flame war. It basically involved a certain feature a few of us wanted to be included in this game that (unfortunately) many more people did not want for various reasons both good and bad. The only reason I mentioned anything about this at all is that I'm no stranger to your struggle to "let go" of things that I ultimately have no control over.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Well I'd personally like to see as much clipping as CoX did. That is to say, don't actively try to make costume pieces that clip, but also don't reinforce it all that much, I mean if you have an armoured chest piece that always clips with other costume pieces sure remake that costume piece, but if it only clips with some costume pieces? Keep it that way okay? Don't do what DCUO does and make it so that a candy cane rifle can only be a candy cane rifle, like don't colour lock that stuff, but also don't make it so that everything jams awkwardly into everything else.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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One of my favorite mods for Fallout 4 was a mod to allow armor pieces to clip through most clothing. Vanilla Fallout 4 was way too restrictive with it's armor and it was infuriating. The mod to allow clipping was excellent.
Fallout 76 took a different approach, they have another costume slot for the topmost clothing that totally covers any armor or underlayer. This gives you the stat bonuses for the armor, and guarantees a clean final costume...but omg it's so boring :/
On clipping in CoT, I'm totally libertarian: allow almost any clipping a player can desire. The only issue I see here is the UI where a beginner may end up with a horrifically clipped costume and has to start from scratch since the UI is a bit much.
On the PR side, I think showing an example of a "worst-case" could be a [u]positive[/u] marketing point in the freedom the CharGen allows.
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Avatar by MikeNovember
I’d love clipping if it means I can have a guy with hedgeclipper hands.
The amount of quotings reached it´s limit. Stahp and reply like normal persons!
"Walking down the street and you hear that heavy beat. You can't help but walk your feet, down all the way 'til we meet"~
Ehm... please define "normal persons" in this regard.
For me it is easier to have such a "quote stack" since I find it easier to follow along the conversation [b]and[/b] refer back to previous posts.
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