I see nothing wrong with the patriotic theme, but yes, I figured most of the characters were CoH ripoffs. Instead of Mynx we get some Egyptian themed furry cat girl.

Doctor Tesla/Ohm/Hertz...forgot the name already...Lord Nemesis knockoff.

Just considering the artwork by itself I don't think these two pairs of characters are incredibly identical to each other (except for maybe the red, white and blue colors). But I'd have to agree that their backstories share far too many elements in common.

I seriously think MWM needs to remain constantly mindful of the ever-present possibility of being sued by NCsoft for IP infringement. Now I recently mentioned in another thread that I'm not overly fearful or paranoid that NCsoft will in fact sue this game. But there's absolutely no reason whatsoever for these main characters in CoT to be ANYTHING like the characters in CoH at all. Why on Earth would the folks at MWM give NCsoft even the tiniest excuse to have real grounds to build an infringement case on? It's almost mind boggling.

I think if they really want to use the "patriotic theme" artwork (as Brand X mentioned) they could probably get away with the current American Star and Anthem images. But for all of our sakes I would implore MWM to please come up with backstories for these new characters that are as completely and totally different from Hero 1 and Ms. Liberty as possible. Same goes for any ofthe other new CoT personalities. Please don't give NCsoft any better reason to jump on us than they may already have regardless.

Hmm, you've got a point there. I never actually could put my finger on what was nagging me about Anthem all this time. True, City of Titans is designed by and for former City of Heroes players (as main target audience). But it does not have to be exactly the same, it's not so much Statesman, Ms. Liberty, Hero 1 and the other flagship characters I miss, it's the feeling. And for me this feeling is more about how the story is handled, not who it is about.

Now I do like Anthem and American Star as charakters, but I would be glad if their story could be a little more unique.

Your "incredible identicalities" are, as so often in such claims, rather superficial, if not even forced.

No, I was not using the quotes as a citation, but in the sense of "alledgedly", "so-called". And I [i] was [/i] refering to the alledged identicallity of their backgrounds, as I can see neither.

Quote:

"Hero 1 was killed leading a team of heroes to stop the alien Rikti invasion, this team was known as the Omega Team. This team died to stop this invasion at its source.

American Star was killed leading a team of heroes to stop the coming storm, Hurricane Atlas, these heroes were known as the Atlas 33. This team died to stop this storm at its source. "

This basically makes as much sense as to say that, since both Palpatine and Angela Merkel are Chancellors, they are both secretly Sith Lords. And that "storm=Bataillon"... well, following this logic, they were helped by the Doctor and the X-Men.
Also, Automatisch seems to consider him/her/itself to know all that has been defined about Anthem and American Star, which is, of course, absurd.

Because [i]Automatisch[/i] wrote this nonsense in this form exactly to archieve this effect.
"X X was exposed to Radiation source Y and became the alpharic Z!" Ergo, most Stan Lee characters are virtually identical!

Really, these similarities are on a level of abstraction of, say, The Hero With A Thousand Faces, where really everything becomes the same.

So, my main reaction to all of this is 'why do I care?' or even 'why is this a problem?' I'm still eagerly looking forward to the game.

Be Well!
Fireheart

You know, I've seen this kind of logic before.

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.

Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.

Both were shot in the head.

Lincoln's secretary, Kennedy, warned him not to go to the theatre.
Kennedy's secretary, Lincoln, warned him not to go to Dallas.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.

Both were succeeded by Southerners.

Both successors were named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.

Both names are comprised of fifteen letters

Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS SECRETLY HERO ONE!

Clearly, the only thing to do is change the colors of the United States of America to no longer match those of England's Union Jack.

(Remember, folks, all elements of lore as revealed are, and have been, subject to extensive change. It's possible Anthem no longer has the same name. It's possible she now carries a shield with a patriotic star in a circle motif.)

warcabbit wrote:

(Remember, folks, all elements of lore as revealed are, and have been, subject to extensive change. It's possible Anthem no longer has the same name. It's possible she now carries a shield with a patriotic star in a circle motif.)

So long as the shield has the kite shape and is projected from a ring, this sounds perfectly acceptable.

/I got nuthin'.
//Obviously the colors of the U.S.A's flag should match those of the French flag.

Radiac wrote:

While we're on the subject, has anyone ever noticed how similar Superman and Supergirl are?
Or for that matter Superman and Shazam?
Or Green Lantern and Quasar and Doctor Spectrum?
Or The Red Tornado and The Vision?
Or Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate?
Or Captain Cold and The Blizzard?
Or Thor and Hercules?
Or Professor X and Niles Caulder (Leader of the Doom Patrol)
Or Amazo and The Mad Thinker's Awesome Android?
Or Captain America and Mr. America?
Or Sgt. Rock's Easy Company and Nick Fury's Howling Commandos?
Or Aquaman and The Sub-Mariner?
The list goes on.....

If you can find me a pair of those where their backstories are almost word-for-word identical then you'd have a similar situation as what was described at the beginning of this thread.

On the other hand if say Anthem and Ms. Liberty end up ONLY being as similar as say Superman and Shazam are then we'd probably be fine.

That's really odd. The armor's on the wrong arm in that picture of Star. Everything else is identical. It must be really old.

Lutan wrote:

It is true that we can't expect a completely new and never seen before backstory. But I still think Automatisch has got a point there, there are several key points almost identical. Yes, not enough to get sued for, not enough for me to say "I don't want to play it anymore" but enough to make me feel uncomfortable.
At the end it all comes down to how those stories are handled. How will Anthem deal with it? What happens in the rest of their backstory? We know little, there might be much more to it that will give the storys their own unique flair. I hope so, but from what I know right now I'm still a little worried.

No one's been asking for magically never-heard-of-before backstories from these CoT characters that are absolutely 100% different from anything that has ever existed before. As Radiac nicely illustrated the comics have never been an amazing hot-bed of pure originality. But I think it would be a trivial exercise for almost anyone to come up with CoT character backstories that are at least REMOTELY unique and non-identical to the CoH characters.

I realize CoT is supposed to be a "spiritual successor" to CoH but that doesn't mean every last detail or bit of lore has to be a 100% perfect clone of the previous game. Even if legality wasn't an issue I would think the folks at MWM would be motivated to put their own "spin" on this game and one perfect way to do that (without really affecting the core gameplay) is to come up with their own characters and backstories that are independent from CoH.

Lothic wrote:

warcabbit wrote:
(Remember, folks, all elements of lore as revealed is, and has been, subject to extensive change. It's possible Anthem no longer has the same name. It's possible she now carries a shield with a patriotic star in a circle motif.)

And remember I don't really care what the flagship characters for CoT end up looking like or what their backstories are. Again I'm just reminding everyone of a possible unfortunate real-world consequence for allowing them to end up being too remotely similar to the equivalent characters in CoH.

And don't forget, Marvel sued because there was just a possibility that someone, not NCsoft but a fictitious player, MIGHT infringe on their copyright. Law suits in this country don't have to be winnable to go to court. They still cost the litigants tons of money. NCsoft HAS tons of money, MWM doesn't. The real trick is to make it so blatantly frivolous that most judges won't hear it in the first place. Even then, you read the news. The stupidest stuff makes it to court, anyway. Often enough, good lawyers can beat common sense to death. I agree with Lothic in so far as I'd be more comfortable if more intellectual space seperated CoH and CoT.

I also don't really care who the Signature/Flagship characters end up being. But, legal similarities not withstanding, I'd like something a little more original, as well.

One other thing I'd like to point out. These forums can be used as evidence in said law suit that MWM was made aware of similarities and chose to ignore concerns if they go ahead.

Nadira wrote:

While there is a lot of similarity between the heroes, the reasoning comes perilously close to stating that there are only two(*) stories ever written (in a million variations) so adding more is not just copyright infringement but pointless as well.
There is a loooooong trail of stories where the hero wins or finds, a legendary weapon that proofs his right to rule.
There is an even longer trail of stories where the wise old mentor dies so the new king can take over. (that one literally has its roots in pre-historic times, as in before the invention of script).
(American) patriotically themed superheroes are as old as the first of them. (and it doesn't help that Hero One was a brit, not a yank)
I could just as easily argue that there are fundamental differences between the story of Hero One and American Star. The first willingly sacrificed himself on a mission he knew there would be no coming back from. The second lost his life trying to rescue a city, knowing there was a risk but not going in expecting to die. While both heroes died the circumstances and the meaning of their death is entirely different from a literary point of view.
(* the two apocryphal stories being: boy wins girl and boy loses girl)

I can completely accept the idea that there are no "new story ideas under the sun" or the theories that suggest there are only [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSevenBasicPlots]Seven Basic Plots[/url] in literature. But when I see people try to reduce arguments like this down to "all character backstories share enough similarities to render the concept of originality or uniqueness pointless" I just have to shake my head in disbelief.

I tend to believe it's incredibly easy for most people to compare two backstories and judge whether or not they share a few elements in common versus being practically word-for-word identical. Furthermore even if you want to believe that "there are fundamental differences between the story of Hero One and American Star" one can make a very simple argument to say that there's absolutely no reason why the differences couldn't (or shouldn't) be much, much wider. Sure the "meaning of their death(s)" might be nominally different but why do they both have to die? Surely it'd be easy enough to have American Star NOT die while doing something that was still effectively identical to what killed the "martyred" Hero 1. Couldn't they come up with some other pretense in the world to explain the "end" of American Star?

The claim of story "identicalness" has as much to do with perception as it does with specific details. I simply contend the backstories of the new CoT characters can easily be formulated in a way that at least doesn't "appear" to be exactly ripping off previous CoH characters even in your literary world that supposedly doesn't offer us many options for originality.

Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I simply contend the backstories of the new CoT characters can easily be formulated in a way that at least doesn't "appear" to be exactly ripping off previous CoH characters
I object to the term "ripping off" when used in this context. I prefer to nuanced notion of "filing off the serial numbers" instead.

Well if the CoT characters are going to be defined as "the CoH characters with their serial numbers filed off" then why don't we go ahead and give them different scopes, stocks, magazine clips, flash suppressors and paint jobs while we're at it. That's all I'm saying.

My first thought on some of the heroes and Doc Tesla (or whatever his name was) was CoH cloned! That was just looking at concept art for them. Then background stories, which multiple people are saying reads like CoH.

Actually, Warcabbit's post was intended to be an ironical look at the 'abuse' of coincidence and, thus, a commentary on the original post.

Upshot is that the similarities between American Star, Hero 1, Ms. Liberty, and Anthem are merely superficial and not really worth arguing. They are similar because 'genre' and not because anyone was looking to plagiarize.

Be Well!
Fireheart

So some people don't like that a hero died trying to save a city, simply because that happened to an iconic character in CoH.
Sorry but that's what heroes do when it get to that point - that point where in order to save thousands of lives you have to make a sacrifice even if that means sacrificing yourself.
If your not happy with that then fine American Star went into the Hurricane, stopped it and never came back. Is he dead? Is he alive after giving up his cape and driving a cab around town (ohhh plot device - Cabbie is American Star!!!!!)? Did he get sucked into another dimension/time zone?

Don't like him using a Patriotic theme for his costume. Well in thread discussing the look of Anthem I said Im not a huge fan of the large "USA!!!!" overtone but looked passed it when the backstory was explained.
But if people are really upset that it looks like a CoH amercian theme hero lets move Titan City to Australia.
That way its a completely different country.
With a blue, white and red flag with stars on it.

:(

i still like my short backstory outline suggestion i made back when: http://cityoftitans.com/comment/57971#comment-57971

Empyrean wrote:

Hokay, while there is some valid discussion here, the whole "you're not doing it right" and "I could have done better" thing is getting old. That attitude is as common as fleas on a dog. EVERYONE thinks they could do better and likes their own ideas better. There is nothing LESS original than THAT attitude. It's starting to sound like the whole "Simpsons Already Did It!/Southpark Already Did It!" Family Guy thing.
But they are making this game for us. None of us are.
We didn't go out on the crazy dangerous limb and we're not putting in the hard work to build a new home for everyone. They are doing a great job in the way that they see fit because they are the ones actually doing it, not just spectating and commentating from the sidelines like the rest of us.
So, to MWM, don't let us armchair heroes rattle you. Keep up the good work and hold your ground when you know you're right. Oh, and, THANK YOU!

Yep. ;)
Keep up the good work MWM. :)

PS:
Too bad there isn't an online flowchart (game?) using Lore where we can pick certain back-stories and consequent actions and have it mapped out and be able to compare it against other user created Lore diagram charts. Click a NPC Profile in the diagram and it expands to show his/her back-story also. NPC or an Event Back-story. ;)
[img]http://www.edrawsoft.com/images/examples/Business-Org-Chart-Full.png[/img]
And have 100 or so pre-written events we can pick from for our use. So its more Plug and Play, Drag n Drop, etc... :D
I'm not suggesting this be in the game. Online 3rd party is OK too! ;)
---
And later, have a whay to Play from start like a interactive Presentation... where you are presented with the Profile/Event/Etc... (fork in the road)... and you click on the profile you want to proceed down, and have the lore be shown on the side or on the bottom like you might have in PowerPoint slide.
---
Later, once enough pre-made assets (backgrounds, costumes, etc...) can be pasted over 2d drawn NPC's (2D puppet armature.. move legs arms etc...), have a Comic Book paneled presentation... where each slide pans to / jumps to the next slide on the page. (Pixton has something of the sort: [url=http://youtu.be/HJzHAZtIpio?t=1m10s]youtube video[/url])