Hell or Heaven powers?

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Tango343
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Hell or Heaven powers?

Are there plans to incorporate powers and outfits/visual themes related to heaven and hell for heroes n the base game? I ask due to wanting to create a hero inspired by Ghost Rider with similar powers and visual themes but I understand if that isn't in the cards for right now due to the iffy nature of incorporating religious symbols/symbolism in the game and or wanting to focus on more established powers/themes.

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If you want Fire, like Ghost

If you want Fire, like Ghost Rider, there will certainly be Fire. You can feel free to call it 'Heaven' or 'Hell', if you like.

Be Well!
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Tango343
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I suppose so. If they make an

I suppose so. If they make an expansion I do hope it will include hell and heavy powersets and themes.

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I don't understand the focus.

I don't understand the focus. The powers will be deliberately designed to be agnostic. You say 'Heaven' and 'Hell' as if they were distinct things. As if they were, somehow, defined.

Dammit, I had this exact same 'argument' several years ago!

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Yeah, that makes no sense.

Yeah, that makes no sense. lol

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What mechanics do you

What mechanics do you associate with heaven/hell powers? Aesthetically, you should be able to create an homage to the ghost rider. It sounds like your are implying power sets dedicated to a heaven/hell concept. Since the aesthetics and mechanics are split, all we can say is that you can reproduce the look.

So, what are the mechanics of the powers that you want? (Acc debuff, fear, stuns, disorients, etc.)

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Yeah, like how is this going

Yeah, like how is this going to fit into aesthetic decoupling? https://cityoftitans.com/content/what-we-can-do-powers

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Tango343 wrote:
Tango343 wrote:

Are there plans to incorporate powers and outfits/visual themes related to heaven and hell for heroes n the base game?

If they make an expansion I do hope it will include hell and heavy powersets and themes.

I doubt there will ever be things in this game that will specifically named with direct Heaven or Hell-like references or use specific Judeo-Christian symbolism. I doubt there will ever be a power called "Light of the Redeemer" or a theme named "Satan-spawn".

But there will be plenty of generic items/themes that could easily be used to create your own version of some kind of religious concept. For instance I'm quite sure the game will provide both angel and devil type wings as costume items. It might not directly call them "angel wings" or "devil wings" but it'll be obvious by looking at them that you could use them to create your own version of a celestial or demonic character as you see fit.

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Tango343
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In terms of mechanics I would

In terms of mechanics I would assume that there would be a mix of stun, damage over time and immediate damage attacks, fear and a small support element of self healing vs healing a team and fire. I would also assume that there would be a serious threat mechanic due to the nature of the players character making all enemies more aware of how "off" they feel about the character.

I suppose some kind of fatigue mechanic could work to balance out the other mechanics in that the player must keep an eye on how much stress or fatigue is while using their powers. Say for example they use hell fire blast or angelic light and a bar below the health slowly goes up by a set number to show the strain such powers have on the character so as to prevent spam of said powers.

I'm sorry if this reply took a bit I had to sit down and think on this one but it still feels like I'm missing some things.

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Ok ok makes sense. It would

Ok ok makes sense. It would give players a chance (and a challenge in a way) to be creative with how they want to create their characters to fit what they want them to look like.

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Tango343 wrote:
Tango343 wrote:

In terms of mechanics I would assume that there would be a mix of stun, damage over time and immediate damage attacks, fear and a small support element of self healing vs healing a team and fire. I would also assume that there would be a serious threat mechanic due to the nature of the players character making all enemies more aware of how "off" they feel about the character.

I suppose some kind of fatigue mechanic could work to balance out the other mechanics in that the player must keep an eye on how much stress or fatigue is while using their powers. Say for example they use hell fire blast or angelic light and a bar below the health slowly goes up by a set number to show the strain such powers have on the character so as to prevent spam of said powers.

I'm sorry if this reply took a bit I had to sit down and think on this one but it still feels like I'm missing some things.

I think the system will be generic enough that you could easily create character concepts that would be obviously angelic or demonic in nature. Again I doubt there will ever be ATs or powersets that are hardwired with religious names or themes but any of the other existing things will be customizable with colors, costumes and animations of you choosing.

Tango343 wrote:

Ok ok makes sense. It would give players a chance (and a challenge in a way) to be creative with how they want to create their characters to fit what they want them to look like.

Exactly.

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The tertiary power pools will

The tertiary power pools will have more options available than CoH had. That will also enable you to fill in some of the mechanics that may be missing in your primary/secondary power choices.

Tango343
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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

The tertiary power pools will have more options available than CoH had. That will also enable you to fill in some of the mechanics that may be missing in your primary/secondary power choices.

Right, ok. I guess that answers my question and like Lothic helped point out how the creative element would present an opportunity to modify and create to the best of my ability.

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I'd think "burning" and

I'd think "burning" and "force"/energy could be crafted well enough into whatever one imagines "heaven" and "hell" powers to be.

But I figure those no-go zones ;)

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'd think "burning" and "force"/energy could be crafted well enough into whatever one imagines "heaven" and "hell" powers to be.
But I figure those no-go zones ;)

Dark could be too, the devs did say that that particular powerset was heavily fear and debuff focused

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I guess I don't associate

I guess I don't associate "dark" with hell. I think of the occult as neither heavenly nor hellish.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I guess I don't associate "dark" with hell. I think of the occult as neither heavenly nor hellish.

eh... to each their own...

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

The powers will be deliberately designed to be agnostic.

I see what you did there. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

The powers will be deliberately designed to be agnostic.

I see what you did there. :-)

Well, yes, but I'm irreligious, irreverent, and often irrelevant. Also paranomasiac.

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Will there be pentagrams for

Will there be pentagrams for use as a chest symbol? Crosses? Stars of David? Hindu purity symbols?

Obviously you cant have anything that's copyrighted, and you probably need to avoid having anything that's a recognized symbol of a specific religious organization, but a lot of that stuff can be done pretty generically. When does a plus sign become a religious Christian crucifix?

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I'm all for religious costume

I'm all for religious costume symbols and items, maybe go throw that into a costume request thread ;)

If you get scaling decals (see signature), you could make any symbol you wanted.

Only issue I see, it opens up to parody (e.g. someone wants to make an evil rabbi), but I'd imagine that could fall easily into a report system.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Will there be pentagrams for use as a chest symbol? Crosses? Stars of David? Hindu purity symbols?

desviper wrote:

I'm all for religious costume symbols and items, maybe go throw that into a costume request thread ;)

As a default I always want to have as many options for a game like this as possible. But even I realize that we'll likely always have to live with a few "restrictions" as far a symbols go just because a few notable symbols almost always cause far more trouble than they're worth. For example the swastika is likely always going to be one of these restricted symbols.

Almost equally inflammatory would be pretty much all real-world religious symbols. Things like Crosses, Stars of David, Islamic Crescents and even Hindu purity symbols will likely never be direct options in this game because unfortunately too many people would be tempted to use them in rude/derogatory ways. As desviper says we could always report inappropriate activity regardless but in the case of things like this it's just far easier to avoid the inevitable problems than to give them a stage to cause those problems in the first place.

Remember there aren't going to be any overt churches, synagogues, temples, etc. with real world religious symbols in the game either. The Devs have already confirmed that back when the topic of "religious clothing" came up like a year or so ago. BTW, since I mentioned the clothing I'll remind everyone there's not going to be any overt religious clothing either (i.e. no priest collars or nun habits).

Again it will just be much easier to prevent bad behavior before it even becomes an issue.

P.S. It's just my "two cents" but creating religious symbols for this game just wouldn't be worth the Devs' time regardless.

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So, to avoid people using

So, to avoid people using religious symbols inflammatorily, we shall also prevent those from using them proudly? I'd remembered a comic about a jihadi super-heroine who used a niqab as a way to conceal her identity while crime fighting.

Preventing them seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Also, if we get some scaling decals, which I think you were against, then you'd actually have to prevent both cases manually.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

So, to avoid people using religious symbols inflammatorily, we shall also prevent those from using them proudly?

The simple answer is yes.

desviper wrote:

I'd remembered a comic about a jihadi super-heroine who used a niqab as a way to conceal her identity while crime fighting.

The content of a comic book is by definition "controlled" by the people who created it and if you happen to be offended by any given comic book you're free to not have to buy it. How would the Devs of a computer game be able to filter out content like that for their playerbase? The easiest way is to prevent those problems in the first place.

desviper wrote:

Preventing them seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Perhaps. Even I would concede what I'm suggesting here is not the "optimally ideal" solution. But it is far safer/easier than the alternatives. Remember we have "freedom of speech" in the United States but it's still illegal to falsely yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater. There will always be checks and balances for specific cases.

desviper wrote:

Also, if we get some scaling decals, which I think you were against, then you'd actually have to prevent both cases manually.

I'm not against scaling decals... unless you'd be able to use them to make things like swastikas or other real world religious symbols. If the Devs can provide for a scaling decal system with the proper safeguards then why not? Of course that might require too much time and effort so maybe it wouldn't be worth it for the Devs to bother with at all.

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You're for throwing the baby

You're for throwing the baby out with the bathwater, got it :p

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

You're for throwing the baby out with the bathwater, got it :p

Despite your hyperbolic attempt to make me look bad because I'm in favor of something that's "not cool" in this case I am for throwing it all out. This particular baby you want to save always turns out to be the Anti-Christ in the end regardless. ;)

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I think you should listen to

I think you should listen to The Horned One in this case ...


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I just can't abide by denying

I just can't abide by denying reasonable people features because silly people may or may not abuse them! I don't want to be ruled by trolls. Ban the trolls, and let the rest of us have our fun.

Like like all debates on this topic, where does it end? I say bikinis are offensive because...reasons...now no bikinis? What if I think having female superheroes is offensive, all male heroes? Demons are offensive? Angels are offensive? How offensive is offensive enough.

But, alas, I am but 15$/mo, but I'll pay extra for allowing offensive content ;) It's T rated, not CE.

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Crosses, Menorahs, Crescent

Crosses, Menorahs, Crescent Moons, Hammer & Sickle, Flags of every country, angel halos, demon horns, Satanic tails, Death Skulls, Pirate Skull and Crossbones, Crowns, diadems, Swastikas (both Buddhist and Nazi), Tibetan Mandalas, an upraised middle finger, or the profile of Ganesh.

None of these should be off limits. Period. For starters, it simply does not matter! Everything in life is offensive to someone. Absolutely everything offends someone, somewhere. That is just reality. So anything left out simply for fear of offense is a form of censorship, and censorship itself is also offensive.

Let's be real here. How many players is this game likely to attract? 10,000? Maybe 20,000? City of Titans is never going to be played by millions of people from cultures and societies all over the world. That is simply not going to happen. The vast majority of players will be Americans, Europeans will be the next largest block, then others will trickle in from other places. Refusing to include some symbol or motif simply because it might offend someone, somewhere is both silly and unrealistic. It borders on delusional.

On the other hand, production budget is extremely limited. Instead of focusing on what NOT to include, it might be better served to focus on what MUST be included.

Christian Cross
Ankh
Menorah
Skull
Devil Skull
Goat Skull
Elk Skull
Bull Skull
Eagle Profile
Eagle in flight
Thunderbird
Generic Mandala
Anarchist "A"
US Flag
sidewinder missile
short-range tactical missile
ICBM
Tomahawk missile
Military drone
civilian drone
Cigar-profile rocketship
Mercury capsule
Apollo capsule
Space shuttle
flying saucer
moon lander
radar antenna
radar scope
satellite antenna
satellite profile
a fireball/comet
a single flame (like a candle or match head)
a candle
a campfire
Nuclear symbol
bio-hazard symbol
Fingerprint swirls
a palm print
two finger peace symbol
two finger bull symbol
Tree of Life
Earth with the Americas centered
Earth with Eurasia Centered
Round peace symbol
Solid Smiley Face
Smiley Face outline
Smiley Face outline frowning
Sun
Crescent Moon
Full Moon
Crescent Moon and Star
Bethlehem Star
Pentagram
Solid five-point star
Star of David
Solid six-point star
Exploding Star
raised fist
hammer and sickle
The Thinker
a feather
integers 0-9
individual letters
Traditional Chinese characters for "center" "power" "tree" "love" "strength" "eternity" "man" "woman"
Japanese version of the Chinese characters for "center" "power" "tree" "love" "strength" "eternity" "man" "woman"
Greek letters "alpha" "omega" "pi" "epsilon" in both capital form and lower case form
symbol for man, symbol for woman
infinity loop
ouroboros loop (snake consuming itself)
rainbow
storm cloud
tornado
lightning

All of these are extremely popular for chest emblems, shoulder emblems, back emblems, tattoos, and so on. Let's start with these, worry about the rest later.

As for "Heaven or Hell Power", which is how this thread started:

With aesthetic decoupling I'm assuming fireballs and lightning bolts are a minimum. Chains/whips that can be customized as solid, fire-based, plasma-based, electric-based, and colored in different colors would be a nice option, but might not be practical for launch. I'm not sure what else would qualify as "powers of heaven and hell". Swords? Lances? Pitchforks?

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Lothic
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I just can't abide by denying reasonable people features because silly people may or may not abuse them! I don't want to be ruled by trolls. Ban the trolls, and let the rest of us have our fun.

Look I started off this particular line of discussion by reaffirming that I come from a mindset where I wish we could literally have anything we want in this game. For example (as if I have to remind you) I'm the apparent lead cheerleader for having breast jiggle in this game. Even you might admit that if the Devs could provide that for CoT without it costing them one penny or one second of extra effort that you might actually be in favor of having that.

So when I suggest that it would be far easier and safer for the Devs of this game to deny certain symbols that by their very nature are inherently, I'll say "problematic", I do so from the point of view of resigned reluctance. Again I wish we lived in a world where you didn't have to automatically assume that every asshat would come out of the woodwork to make our collective lives miserable but sadly they will.

desviper wrote:

Like like all debates on this topic, where does it end? I say bikinis are offensive because...reasons...now no bikinis? What if I think having female superheroes is offensive, all male heroes? Demons are offensive? Angels are offensive? How offensive is offensive enough.

This is actually a very reasonable and legitimate question. I completely agree that once something like this game starts down the path of restricting certain things for arguably legitimate reasons that it could become easier for them to start restricting other things for less than reasonable reasons.

But for what it's worth I think the Devs of this game are mindful of the ramifications and are smart enough to know the difference between things that are widely accepted to be questionable versus things that may only annoy a few people. It's actually our job to "keep them honest" by discussing things like this here in this forum. We need to collectively remind them that while we are willing to accept that some things are effectively out of our control (i.e. swastikas being illegal for media in Germany) we will ONLY tolerate the bare minimum of limitations.

We already know that the Devs of CoT are doing their best to give us as many customization options as possible. They even claim they're committed to removing previous limitations that existed in CoH such as gender-locked clothing items. With people like that in charge I'm reasonably satisfied that when they decide to restrict anything it'll be done in a thoughtful and restrained manner.

desviper wrote:

But, alas, I am but 15$/mo, but I'll pay extra for allowing offensive content ;) It's T rated, not CE.

We still have no real idea what they intend to sell in the cash shop for this game. For all we know they will in fact sell things that might be considered more generally "offensive" to some people. Who knows, maybe they'll even sell a breast jiggle option - you know I'd pay extra for that. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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[quote=GreyhawkNone of these
Greyhawk wrote:

None of these should be off limits. Period. For starters, it simply does not matter! Everything in life is offensive to someone. Absolutely everything offends someone, somewhere. That is just reality. So anything left out simply for fear of offense is a form of censorship, and censorship itself is also offensive.

Refusing to include some symbol or motif simply because it might offend someone, somewhere is both silly and unrealistic. It borders on delusional.

I honestly and sincerely get where you're coming from with this. If you've read my other recent responses on this thread you know that my advocacy for restricting certain symbols in the game does not come from my overwhelming DESIRE for that. I accept that it must be done only on the most reluctant terms.

While you hyperbolically point out that "anyone could be offended by anything" there are in fact logical/statistical ways to approach this issue. Sure every special snowflake out there might have their own unique "trigger" that sets them off but when you consider the entire playerbase as a whole it becomes relatively easier to see that a handful of specific symbols such as the swastika are so universally charged with "socially disruptive" connotations that they rise to the very top of the "better to ban than not" list.

You have claimed in other threads to be a "well seasoned" person IRL and I'm not exactly a spring chicken myself. We've both probably been around long enough to know that certain real life symbols have connotations that are so powerful that they essentially tempt the weak-minded and/or immature among us to do silly and socially unacceptable things with them. Combine that with the relative anonymity of the Interwebs and you've got the perfect storm of griefing and asshattery. These things have happened in other games and they will happen here in CoT unless the Devs of this game decide to preemptively curtail the majority of problems by simply restricting the most obviously problematic symbols.

Yes it's sad the Devs would have to do that and yes it goes against the notion that we should be able to do anything we want in the game. But frankly I'd rather live with a few laws here and there than to have pure anarchy. Groups of people usually get along a bit better when there are reasonable checks and balances to mitigate our baser natures.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Cant they just...not include

Cant they just...not include symbols that are widely known as offensive?

I dont think many really care if someone is wearing a cross regardless if they are atheist.

I mean in the simplest way I can think of it: "Why should I care about what they are wearing?"

I understand the potential grief, the thing is that the game isnt free, its pay to play(I think not really sure I've seen a lot of different things). And not many would pay money just to not be able to ever play the game again.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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So, you bow down to the

So, you bow down to the trolls. What happens when the feminists complain about the jiggle and it gets removed?

A compromise, and maybe this needs it's own thread: a censored costume creator: you want a swastika, but someone else ( or some country) doesn't want to see it, click "censor mature content" in the options menu, and voila, it's an iron cross now (or even something generic for any offensive costume piece). Would require some coding, but at a replacement for each "offensive" item, doesn't sound ridiculously time-consuming.

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Elios Valoryn wrote:
Elios Valoryn wrote:

Cant they just...not include symbols that are widely known as offensive?

That's pretty much my point here. I suspect that's exactly what's going to happen in CoT.

Elios Valoryn wrote:

I dont think many really care if someone is wearing a cross regardless if they are atheist.

That's one example of a case that might not be considered too egregious. But what if the same guy wearing the cross runs around spouting off inflammatory statements about abortion, gay rights or even manages to recreate a reasonable KKK outfit to attach that cross to?

Elios Valoryn wrote:

I mean in the simplest way I can think of it: "Why should I care about what they are wearing?"

I'd rather the GMs of this game not be constantly swamped having to police things that are not only likely to happen but are also easily avoidable.

Elios Valoryn wrote:

I understand the potential grief, the thing is that the game isnt free, its pay to play(I think not really sure I've seen a lot of different things). And not many would pay money just to not be able to ever play the game again.

It's not like what I'm suggesting here is a radical new idea. Computer game Devs have had to "control" their content for offensive material for decades. If anything all I'm advocating is that the Devs of CoT will have to keep doing the same things to restrict the same kinds of things that games have be restricting for decades.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

So, you bow down to the trolls.

I don't see it as "bowing down to the trolls" as much as "removing the wind from their sails".

desviper wrote:

What happens when the feminists complain about the jiggle and it gets removed?

LOL... It seems you're not aware that the Devs of CoT have already made that concern moot by finally claiming (after letting that particularly infamous thread rage for years) that they have no immediate plans to implement "body jiggle physics" of any kind. Apparently we're going to have to wait until CoT2 or some such to get that.

desviper wrote:

A compromise, and maybe this needs it's own thread: a censored costume creator: you want a swastika, but someone else ( or some country) doesn't want to see it, click "censor mature content" in the options menu, and voila, it's an iron cross now (or even something generic for any offensive costume piece). Would require some coding, but at a replacement for each "offensive" item, doesn't sound ridiculously time-consuming.

Ironically I would actually throw the "it would take too much Dev effort to implement" card down on this.

For starters I don't think you could manage all the various kinds of offensive material with just a single toggle switch. Let's say for example you personally find the swastika to be highly offensive yet have no opinion about the French fleur-de-lis. As a simple hypothetical there could easily be another person out there who holds the exact opposite opinion on those two symbols. How does the single toggle switch satisfy both of you?

Then of course the extra effort involved with defining "replacement" symbols is just that, extra effort. It would be far, far easier for the Devs to simply prevent a handful of universally accepted symbols from even being allowed into the game in the first place.

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I agree it'd be far better to

I agree it'd be far better to leave out obviously inflammatory symbols without it leading us down some slippery slope of censorship.

Besides, from comments made in various threads, it seems like client-side modding will be a thing.

If you absolutely have to have a swastika surrounded by erect penises to fully realize your concept, you might be able to make something that only shows up on your screen.

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

I agree it'd be far better to leave out obviously inflammatory symbols without it leading us down some slippery slope of censorship.

Besides, from comments made in various threads, it seems like client-side modding will be a thing.

If you absolutely have to have a swastika surrounded by erect penises to fully realize your concept, you might be able to make something that only shows up on your screen.

Yeah as far as I've heard the Devs still want to try to give us something like the "client-side" only modding capability that we had in CoH. And don't forget that they also eventually want to allow us to be able to set up our own private servers too. So if things like this are restricted in the basic public server game it sounds like you'd be able to set up your own servers to your heart's content.

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A cross would not be

A cross would not be offensive, but a crucifix would. A Hindu peace symbol would not be offensive, but the icon of one of the dieties in the Rig Veda would be.

There are some things that are held to be sacred by some people. It doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks. If you violate the sanctity, you are guilty of being offensive, by definition, without anyone having to claim offense.

But there is a difference between what is sacred and what is just symbolic. And people claiming offense just because of their individual interpretation of a symbol should not hold sway.

And then there are things that surpass mere symbolism and have been universally accepted as offensive by their very nature. Extended mIddle fingers and swastikas fall into this category. The swadtika itself has transcended symbolism. I think excluding such symbols would be considered good judgment on the part of the business known as MWM, no matter how many players cry for free speech.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

None of these should be off limits.

Agreed. As with most topics that concern options, I tend to side on granting them to players, as long as it's tasteful. Yes, I get it, everyone's definition of 'tasteful' is going to vary, but that's just how it goes. Eventually, someone in charge (e.g. the devs) will decide what they deem 'tasteful', which is usually in the realm of what could be generally considered socially acceptable by the majority, and unless there's a huge uproar from the playerbase community, it'll be implemented. From there, either that squeaky wheel (the vocal minority) can continue to tilt at windmills or they can eventually accept it and just play the game.

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I remember making a blue

I remember making a blue knight type hero who had a cross on his chest. The purpose was to appear like a crusader/knight. In this instance, I think a cross was very important to my character. So I agree that certain symbols should be accepted just for historic purposes in RP but otherwise, we don't need super symbolic symbols that could offend a big group of people

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Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I remember making a blue knight type hero who had a cross on his chest. The purpose was to appear like a crusader/knight. In this instance, I think a cross was very important to my character. So I agree that certain symbols should be accepted just for historic purposes in RP but otherwise, we don't need super symbolic symbols that could offend a big group of people

Nein! No crusader for you! Someone might get offended ;)

All religious symbols are historically relevant. Wanna tell me the swastika isn't historically significant?

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I remember making a blue knight type hero who had a cross on his chest. The purpose was to appear like a crusader/knight. In this instance, I think a cross was very important to my character. So I agree that certain symbols should be accepted just for historic purposes in RP but otherwise, we don't need super symbolic symbols that could offend a big group of people
Nein! No crusader for you! Someone might get offended ;)
All religious symbols are historically relevant. Wanna tell me the swastika isn't historically significant?

Ok well let's show a swastika and a cross to 100 people see which one gets the biggest rise out of people. You get my point

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Still, it's clear a line must

Still, it's clear a line must be drawn somewhere and not everyone is going to be happy with what's allowed and what isn't.

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

Still, it's clear a line must be drawn somewhere and not everyone is going to be happy with what's allowed and what isn't.

That's a fair point, you can't go 100% safe space.

I'd still abhor throwing out scaling decals because some child might make something so offensive to some "adult".

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

That's a fair point, you can't go 100% safe space.
I'd still abhor throwing out scaling decals because some child might make something so offensive to some "adult".

As I implied before I suspect that some day someone will be able to make a "scaling decals" system that'll be smart enough to prevent the symbols that the Devs will want to restrict. Unfortunately doing that would probably not be super-trivial thus it would take significant Dev time and effort to accomplish. Until then simply restricting the symbols in question is the easiest solution. Not the "ideal" solution, just the easiest.

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Preventing combinations of

Preventing combinations of symbols from resulting in "offensive" decals or symbols is basically impossible. How to make a swastika. 8 rectangles, or a square with 4 squares of different colors. Using simpler shapes to make more complicated shapes is the whole point.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Preventing combinations of symbols from resulting in "offensive" decals or symbols is basically impossible. How to make a swastika. 8 rectangles, or a square with 4 squares of different colors. Using simpler shapes to make more complicated shapes is the whole point.

You're kidding with this right? Obviously the software would analyze the "final shape" a player tries to create and if it's too close to something restricted it would just reject it. Like I said it would not be trivial to create software to do this, but not impossible.

I'm actually offering a way for your idea to actually work in the long run. Stop trying to prove that your own idea is "impossible".

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I guess I don't know the

I guess I don't know the technicalities of it, but computers are AWFUL at pattern recognition. Telling it to trace a shape or eyeball it is very difficult, and given the number of possibilities here....no, I'm not kidding when i say "basically impossible".

So, I say let the mods handle it.

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Note, Call of Duty has an

Note, Call of Duty has an emblem system that works like this: up to 32 small, simple shapes are combined into a custom emblem for each player. And their system is "let the reports come in", and they've the budget to try harder. No one's sued them yet.

An occasional vulgarity comes in (it's CoD :p ), but no one gets their panties in a twist over it.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I guess I don't know the technicalities of it, but computers are AWFUL at pattern recognition. Telling it to trace a shape or eyeball it is very difficult, and given the number of possibilities here....no, I'm not kidding when i say "basically impossible".

I'm perfectly willing to leave this at "you clearly don't know what computers are capable of doing".

desviper wrote:

So, I say let the mods handle it.

We've already gone over (multiple times) why this will never be a situation where we'll "just be able to let the mods handle it". Stop trying to basckslide into that fantasy scenario that'll never happen.

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It's currently happening in

It's currently happening in other big budget, AAA games... so it's no fantasy.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Note, Call of Duty has an emblem system that works like this: up to 32 small, simple shapes are combined into a custom emblem for each player. And their system is "let the reports come in", and they've the budget to try harder. No one's sued them yet.
An occasional vulgarity comes in (it's CoD :p ), but no one gets their panties in a twist over it.

*sigh*

I'm sorry you don't get why something like that will never happen here. All I can tell you is please don't be too bummed out when it never arrives. *shrugs*

desviper wrote:

It's currently happening in other big budget, AAA games... so it's no fantasy.

At least you were able to come up with one of many reasons why it's not going to happen here on your own...

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Can big budget games afford

Can big budget games afford more mods or something? I was thinking volunteer mods...but maybe that is a fantasy. I would volunteer, but it's clear I play fast and loose with such things: I'm not authoritarian enough to be a mod.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Can big budget games afford more mods or something? I was thinking volunteer mods...but maybe that is a fantasy. I would volunteer, but it's clear I play fast and loose with such things: I'm not authoritarian enough to be a mod.

Well yes, to start with a big budget game could afford to hire more GMs to police the game. A big budget game could also afford to offer its players a "symbol creator" in the first place.

Another thing to consider are player made graphics mods. A player could very likely do some kind of graphics mod for this in single player game (like Skyrim or Fallout4). If CoT allows for client-only mods (like CoH did) it's possible a player could come up with his/her own symbols, but obviously no other players would see them. That might be the best you can hope for out of this... at least until we get to have our own private CoT servers.

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Well, I'm appalled at the

Well, I'm appalled at the fear of offense, but okay. Guess I'm the unstoppable force here :p Guess we've derailed this long enough.

I think we, all of us, have solved OPs problem though :)

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If I was to make a super hero

If I was to make a super hero mmo, I'd totally have a heaven and hell, angel and devils thing going on, that would likely scream of christianity. I'd maybe even do some back in time crusades adventure in it.

Truthfully, I don't think the devs of CoT are that brave to do it :p

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So, you'd like some In Nomine

So, you'd like some In Nomine content? Or Aion? I mean, there's certainly no reason one could not roleplay that, using 'City of...'. I feel like, if there was some sort of overt conflict between powers of Light and Dark, like that, the story might tend to take over everything else. Probably drive out the people that just want to play supers.

Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, you'd like some In Nomine content? Or Aion? I mean, there's certainly no reason one could not roleplay that, using 'City of...'. I feel like, if there was some sort of overt conflict between powers of Light and Dark, like that, the story might tend to take over everything else. Probably drive out the people that just want to play supers.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Didnt powers of Light vs Dark work for Spawn?

It doesn't have to take over the whole game. It'd just be another story in the city.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
So, you'd like some In Nomine content? Or Aion? I mean, there's certainly no reason one could not roleplay that, using 'City of...'. I feel like, if there was some sort of overt conflict between powers of Light and Dark, like that, the story might tend to take over everything else. Probably drive out the people that just want to play supers.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Didnt powers of Light vs Dark work for Spawn?
It doesn't have to take over the whole game. It'd just be another story in the city.

I don't agree. I think once you start bringing in religion to an MMO game, as small of a story or play style it can be, its just gonna create pockets of conversation that could expand into huge arguments between players about this sensitive subject. I would be so annoyed if I was on a team and another player was spewing bible versus because his character had heaven powers... I think there is enough religion and even politics around us IRL for it to be in a Superhero MMO.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
So, you'd like some In Nomine content? Or Aion? I mean, there's certainly no reason one could not roleplay that, using 'City of...'. I feel like, if there was some sort of overt conflict between powers of Light and Dark, like that, the story might tend to take over everything else. Probably drive out the people that just want to play supers.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Didnt powers of Light vs Dark work for Spawn?

Yeah, it's unfortunate how ubiquitous socio-politics are...and how fervent people can be one them ;)
It doesn't have to take over the whole game. It'd just be another story in the city.
I don't agree. I think once you start bringing in religion to an MMO game, as small of a story or play style it can be, its just gonna create pockets of conversation that could expand into huge arguments between players about this sensitive subject. I would be so annoyed if I was on a team and another player was spewing bible versus because his character had heaven powers... I think there is enough religion and even politics around us IRL for it to be in a Superhero MMO.

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Meh, an Ankh is close enough.

Meh, an Ankh is close enough.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
So, you'd like some In Nomine content? Or Aion? I mean, there's certainly no reason one could not roleplay that, using 'City of...'. I feel like, if there was some sort of overt conflict between powers of Light and Dark, like that, the story might tend to take over everything else. Probably drive out the people that just want to play supers.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Didnt powers of Light vs Dark work for Spawn?
It doesn't have to take over the whole game. It'd just be another story in the city.
I don't agree. I think once you start bringing in religion to an MMO game, as small of a story or play style it can be, its just gonna create pockets of conversation that could expand into huge arguments between players about this sensitive subject. I would be so annoyed if I was on a team and another player was spewing bible versus because his character had heaven powers... I think there is enough religion and even politics around us IRL for it to be in a Superhero MMO.

But we can have that without the devs putting it in. It's not that hard.

"Create Character: Heaven's Wrath"

Heaven's Wrath can then be a fallen angel or just a regular angel, who can spout off all you mentioned.

Look at CoH. It was a MMO that the devs specifically said didn't have the same politicians as real life, but I was hard pressed to find a single player or RPer who could act like that was the case. :p As a RPer I'd even say stuff like "Who is Obama?" in RP and people couldn't get past that little lore fact :p I just wrote it up as "People are dumb and can't stick to lore." >_> Of course, some got upset when I would say that in chat. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If I was to make a super hero mmo, I'd totally have a heaven and hell, angel and devils thing going on, that would likely scream of christianity. I'd maybe even do some back in time crusades adventure in it.
Truthfully, I don't think the devs of CoT are that brave to do it :p

The trick that I hope CoT will be able to pull off is that it'll allow its players enough customization options to do practically any character concept they want WITHOUT having to rely on very specific real world symbols, names or religions.

The game can have all sorts of "angel" and "devil" wings, horns, halos and other items as long as they're generic enough and avoid using classical religious terms. Likewise there can be all sorts of lore and mission stories that could have "celestial" and "demonic" themes as long as you aren't calling out (for example) specific arch-angels from a real world holy book. After all the basic concept of "angels" and "devils" aren't exclusively Judeo-Christian in origin in the first place.

As long as the Devs are smart about it they could probably cram this game full of all sorts of "borderline touchy" items/references without any trouble whatsoever.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Wanna tell me the swastika isn't historically significant?

If there's a single swastika in the game it won't be allowed in Germany... in which case I'd want my money back.
Furthermore, if you folks are so fixated on getting swastikas in the game, I'd suggest we also add the confederate, al qaeda and daesh flags, IRA symbol, a burning cross, maybe a collapsing sky scraper... those are historically significant too, right?
Let's see how offensive we can make CoT, before no one but trolls will play it -.-
Or, let's not.
If you can't have fun without offending everybody in your vicinity... please go and play CoD.

Brand X wrote:

I'd maybe even do some back in time crusades adventure in it.

So... you're saying that you want to be able to (virtually) murder muslims simply for living in a country you consider sacred? O.O
Are you really certain that is what you want?
I'm sure that will go over well...

Personally I'd be quite happy if the devs are not that "brave"... and a little more inclusive instead.

Lothic wrote:

As long as the Devs are smart about it they could probably cram this game full of all sorts of "borderline touchy" items/references without any trouble whatsoever.

CoH/V had plenty of demons: the Wailers, Bat'Zul and his minions, the Circle of Thorns ones, MM pets...also some gods, Zeus and Tartarus come to mind. Just nothing directly referencing any still widely practised religion.
Imo CoT should keep it that way.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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I'm not for having devs

I'm not for having devs create those symbols, but for creating a system to make ANY symbol, then ban the trolls if children get offended.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm not for having devs create those symbols, but for creating a system to make ANY symbol, then ban the trolls if children get offended.

So we can get overrun with phalluses like Second Life?

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

desviper wrote:
I'm not for having devs create those symbols, but for creating a system to make ANY symbol, then ban the trolls if children get offended.
So we can get overrun with phalluses like Second Life?

Unfortunately, every MMO has a certain level of such that we have to endure. It would be nice if we didn't have to also deal with offensiveness of the visual variety.

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

desviper wrote:
Wanna tell me the swastika isn't historically significant?
If there's a single swastika in the game it won't be allowed in Germany... in which case I'd want my money back.
Furthermore, if you folks are so fixated on getting swastikas in the game, I'd suggest we also add the confederate, al qaeda and daesh flags, IRA symbol, a burning cross, maybe a collapsing sky scraper... those are historically significant too, right?
Let's see how offensive we can make CoT, before no one but trolls will play it -.-
Or, let's not.
If you can't have fun without offending everybody in your vicinity... please go and play CoD.
Brand X wrote:
I'd maybe even do some back in time crusades adventure in it.
So... you're saying that you want to be able to (virtually) murder muslims simply for living in a country you consider sacred? O.O
Are you really certain that is what you want?
I'm sure that will go over well...
Personally I'd be quite happy if the devs are not that "brave"... and a little more inclusive instead.
Lothic wrote:
As long as the Devs are smart about it they could probably cram this game full of all sorts of "borderline touchy" items/references without any trouble whatsoever.
CoH/V had plenty of demons: the Wailers, Bat'Zul and his minions, the Circle of Thorns ones, MM pets...also some gods, Zeus and Tartarus come to mind. Just nothing directly referencing any still widely practised religion.
Imo CoT should keep it that way.

So, I take it, you're not a fan of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, because, you know, it had a Knight of the Crusades in it? Also, Robin Hood: Prince of Theives or Robin Hood: Men in Tights? Monty Python?

Zeus just referenced and made a hero of a serial rapist. Yup. You're so right. What was I thinking?

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In the case of the actual

In the case of the actual game City of Titans, I think the issue is less morality than practicality and legality. Like the whole 5th Column thing in CoH. Morals either way aside, it became a problem.

I mean, we can argue morals and ethics all day for fun (or for lack of being able to let it go :P), but the practical point is what will make City of Titans a successful game.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

In the case of the actual game City of Titans, I think the issue is less morality than practicality and legality. Like the whole 5th Column thing in CoH. Morals either way aside, it became a problem.
I mean, we can argue morals and ethics all day for fun (or for lack of being able to let it go :P), but the practical point is what will make City of Titans a successful game.

Well, on that side of things, while I'm not saying put Nazi's in the game, as we can totally do what CoH and Marvel does with their Nazi's by a different name (which now makes me wonder if Captain America was not allowed to show in Germany), I have to wonder, just how much of the German populace would actually play CoT.

"They wouldn't be able to sell it in Germany!" isn't much of an arguement, if only three people are going to buy it from Germany :p

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

desviper wrote:
I'm not for having devs create those symbols, but for creating a system to make ANY symbol, then ban the trolls if children get offended.
So we can get overrun with phalluses like Second Life?

I see this kind of stuff in every game, I roll my eyes then continue crushing skulls. It's a T-rated game, not CE :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

So, I take it, you're not a fan of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, because, you know, it had a Knight of the Crusades in it? Also, Robin Hood: Prince of Theives or Robin Hood: Men in Tights? Monty Python?

I did like at least two of those movies. But and this is kind of important, they were all made before I was old enough to really understand what the crusades were and the participants were depicted as oh so righteous and good...instead of as invaders and religious extremists all to eager to rape, pillage and plunder. Also, you didn't want an adventure that referenced the crusades... but wanted the player to time travel there and I guess participate. And since you already declared your favoritism of christianity (nothing wrong with that in and on itself), it's a safe bet to assume this would mean fighting on the crusaders' side. Against those evil monsters defending their homes and protecting their families. Oh. Oops.
Look, I don't mean to attack you, but: Just because they are heroes to you, doesn't mean they are heroes to everyone... or even right.

Brand X wrote:

Zeus just referenced and made a hero of a serial rapist.

Zeus, like all deities, is a fictional character who as a result never really hurt anyone.
I mean, I won't hold it against Mario that he singlehandedly killed almost everybody in the Mushroom Kingdom.

Brand X wrote:

Well, on that side of things, while I'm not saying put Nazi's in the game, as we can totally do what CoH and Marvel does with their Nazi's by a different name (which now makes me wonder if Captain America was not allowed to show in Germany)

Movies and comics can be and usually are edited.

I'm not sure if that would be possible in a game with effectively a single server for everyone.
Also movies are considered art, meaning they can get away with a whole lot more than games and comics, which are not.

Brand X wrote:

I have to wonder, just how much of the German populace would actually play CoT.
"They wouldn't be able to sell it in Germany!" isn't much of an arguement, if only three people are going to buy it from Germany :p

Right, we had our own server because only three people ever played City of Heroes... I guess almost everyone I played with were sockpuppets of myself and two friends.
We surely are good at multi-boxing...

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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Yes, I wanted to time travel

Yes, I wanted to time travel there for but I also wanted a fictionalized version of it all :p Not to mention the first crusade was about saving people, after the Pope was asked to come in and save people by the Byzantium Emperor from aggressive Muslims. The next ones, not so much. However, like I said, I prefer some awesome fictionalized version, because yes, I do like the whole angel and demon thing. I'm not Catholic but I love the whole idea of warrior nun/priests and them having a secret warrior organization.

I'm really not religious at all. I just like it from a fictional side of things. :)

As for my comment about German players, obviously, three was a silly low ball. :p However, how many players are we talking? When does it become worth the effort and when does it become not worth it?

That all said. It really shouldn't matter. Worried about something that happened that long ago, but okay with the idea of fictional nazi's but with a different symbol? Okay with fictional crime bosses and gangs, which are obviously happening in this current time, while crusades ended before 1300.

So, if they can take the more current things, I'm totally sure people can handle what happened over 700 years ago :p

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How many gangs you know

How many gangs commit genocide? Also, how many RL gangs were in CoH?
Besides, it has a lot to do with framing. From the top of your head how many missions do you remember where you had to defend the 5th Column from, let's say Arachnos?
If you remember so much as a single one, there's probably something wrong with your memory. Nazis are always the bigger bad.
If beating them means teaming up with the Mafia... then be it. And yes, I do enjoy bashing their heads in.
On the other hand, at least in western fiction crusaders are almost always depicted as the good guys... which totally makes sense given our christian heritage. How could anyone fighting explicitly for christianity be evil?

If you absolutely need to have crusader/time travel stories... maybe have the player help them to protect some caravan/nameless desert village against Djinn or Ifrits.
Or better yet, other time travellers who've come to change history.
But depicting anything close enough to the actual crusades, would start a shitstorm of epic proportions.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

So, if they can take the more current things, I'm totally sure people can handle what happened over 700 years ago :p

Unfortunately, many people, even in the West, are rabid extremists about things that happened 2000 years ago. And, no, the folks in the Middle East still burn with rage over all of that stuff.

Be Well!
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There's no reason to give in

There's no reason to give in to the fear of people being upset about century old conflicts. :p Did the Middle East even have people playing CoH?

Also, if Crusaders are romanticized as the heroes, keep to that. It is, after all, fiction. Not to mention, it's better than most of the stories we saw in player made missions in CoH :p Throw in some european dragons and a wizard named Merlin with a King named Author leading the crusades teaming up with that time traveling hero from Titan City!

:o A Titan in King Author's Court!

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King Author? Oo Umm....
Brand X wrote:

King Author

Ôo
Umm... that's a joke, right? Please tell me you're joking.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

If beating them means teaming up with the Mafia... then be it.

The Rocketeer, anybody?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x28e1ua_rocketeer-gangsters-fbi-vs-nazis_shortfilms

/derail #ChooChoo

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Nos482 wrote:
If beating them means teaming up with the Mafia... then be it.
The Rocketeer, anybody?http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x28e1ua_rocketeer-gangsters-fbi-vs-nazi...
/derail #ChooChoo

It went off the track so long ago there's no sense in worrying about it. Its off-roading and not planning on coming back to the rail.

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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Nos482 wrote:
If beating them means teaming up with the Mafia... then be it.
The Rocketeer, anybody?http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x28e1ua_rocketeer-gangsters-fbi-vs-nazi...
/derail #ChooChoo
It went off the track so long ago there's no sense in worrying about it. Its off-roading and not planning on coming back to the rail.

Then I'm The Conductor!

/derail #PooChoo

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

"They wouldn't be able to sell it in Germany!" isn't much of an arguement, if only three people are going to buy it from Germany :p

There's no reason to give in to the fear of people being upset about century old conflicts. :p Did the Middle East even have people playing CoH?

Sometimes it's not an issue of just pissing off a small handful of players directly. Sometimes it's more about a given game getting a negative reputation for allowing multiple sources of questionable content in general.

Think about what Lin Chiao Feng recently posted about Second Life: I'm sure it's not literally 100% full of phalluses but since there are -enough- of them bouncing around there the "instant one sentence summary" of Second Life can now arguably be some unceremonious variation of "that online place that's overrun with phalluses". I'd hate for CoT to earn a tagline like that.

Sure having swastikas in CoT might only directly upset 3 or 4 potential German players or having Crusader content might only specifically upset 3 or 4 potential Mid-East players. But if CoT starts to become a haven for these things it runs the risk of earning the overall negative reputation that we don't want and can't afford.

Fortunately as I mentioned before there's a huge amount of things this game CAN do as long as it's clever enough to "change the names" and "modify the symbols" to keep everything happily generic. One of the more classic examples of this is Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator

In this movie Chaplin simply changed the real life swastikas to double X's. The CoT Devs could even come up with some fantasy version of a "crusade" as long as they don't mention Christians and Muslims by name. Practically any "questionable" symbol or situation can be modified just enough for the purposes of this game to be acceptable in the long run.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm not saying they should

I'm not saying they should put in nazi symbols. :p However, CoH still had nazi character's even if they weren't nazi's. We could easily still have crusaders, which as it's over 700 years old history, all should be fine.

Also, the argument, that "It may hurt people" is lost from the beginning, because I promise you, the game will still have magic and demons and we all know that upsets LOTS of people. It's like no one here remembers the hurt feelings of many people over Harry Potter :p

That's why Nos's comments are dumb. He's totally willing to say ignore something that can hurt a few CERTAIN people. While totally ignoring others.

If crusaders will upset a couple Muslims (which was his argument), which is not a minority, as Islam is the second most popular religion in the world. He obviously meant, "It just offends someone." While magic we totally know offends people not just of christian backgrounds (basically many religious types who can't accept some fiction :p)

Not to mention, we're likely to have ghosts in the game right? Doesn't that kick the game right out of China, due to being considered offensive/against the law.

The point being, lots of picking and choosing seems to be going on :p

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Hold up. video games aren't

Hold up. video games aren't art? Well I find that a ridiculous assertion.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I'm not saying they should put in nazi symbols. :p However, CoH still had nazi character's even if they weren't nazi's. We could easily still have crusaders, which as it's over 700 years old history, all should be fine.
Also, the argument, that "It may hurt people" is lost from the beginning, because I promise you, the game will still have magic and demons and we all know that upsets LOTS of people. It's like no one here remembers the hurt feelings of many people over Harry Potter :p
That's why Nos's comments are dumb. He's totally willing to say ignore something that can hurt a few CERTAIN people. While totally ignoring others.
If crusaders will upset a couple Muslims (which was his argument), which is not a minority, as Islam is the second most popular religion in the world. He obviously meant, "It just offends someone." While magic we totally know offends people not just of christian backgrounds (basically many religious types who can't accept some fiction :p)
Not to mention, we're likely to have ghosts in the game right? Doesn't that kick the game right out of China, due to being considered offensive/against the law.
The point being, lots of picking and choosing seems to be going on :p

Sure it's always going to be "hit-or-miss" when it comes to what should or shouldn't be depicted in a game like this. And like you said no matter what the Devs do they're still likely going to offend someone somehow anyway. But this isn't the type of thing where if the Devs can't prevent/avoid everything with 100% certainty they should just do nothing. No anti-virus software product is 100% bulletproof but that doesn't mean we don't still use them for the majority of good that they can do.

Like it or not we live in a world where we have to accept a certain degree of "law and order" to function collectively in groups and MMOs are no exception to that. There's always going to be a fine line between allowing players the freedom to do whatever they want versus having reasonable safeguards that prevent foreseeable/predictable trouble areas.

It really continues to amaze me that people think that a game like this could function without any pre-planning for obvious questionable player content. Some people have suggested, "Just let the in-game GMs police everything". That might be fine if we were guaranteed to have like maybe 100 GMs per server who could cover every situation 24/7. But we all know that's not going to be the case in CoT - they simply will not have the manpower to do this adequately. Other people ask, "Well who's to judge what's OK to be in this game or not?" I'm perfectly willing to let the Devs decide that and if that means they think we'd be better off without X, Y or Z even being possible in the game (via user generated content) then that's the law of the land.

If you end up disagreeing with MWM's decisions on these things you could either play another game or just wait until they allow us to have private servers and set up your own little world to have whatever you want in it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

If there's a single swastika in the game it won't be allowed in Germany... in which case I'd want my money back.

Do you live in Germany? Can you confirm or deny something for me?
I was pretty sure I read that the laws are not as strict as they once were. Video game, comic book and movie's that use symbols of the Nazi party are now allowed if they are used in historical context. In the case of using it as a costume part wouldn't be allowed, but if there was a time travel quest where we go to 1939 Germany the use of those symbols would not be barred. That said, it might not be barred but still could be offensive to German players.

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http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki

http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games

I notice no CoD or newer Wolfenstein, which definitely have nazis and swasticas.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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But is that list definitive

But is that list definitive and up-to-date?

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Nos482 wrote:
If there's a single swastika in the game it won't be allowed in Germany... in which case I'd want my money back.
Do you live in Germany? Can you confirm or deny something for me?
I was pretty sure I read that the laws are not as strict as they once were. Video game, comic book and movie's that use symbols of the Nazi party are now allowed if they are used in historical context. In the case of using it as a costume part wouldn't be allowed, but if there was a time travel quest where we go to 1939 Germany the use of those symbols would not be barred. That said, it might not be barred but still could be offensive to German players.

Here's the probable difference as far as that "historical context" thing goes for Germany:

Take for example a movie like Schindler's List. It was set entirely during the war and there was no connection to anything else besides that strict historical period. We can probably assume this was allowable as far as the laws go.

But now consider the "time travel mission" in a computer game. Yes you can argue that the setting of the given mission might be OK but it's only a sub-part of a MODERN computer game, so again even if that's considered OK it's probably a bit less "certain" than the Schindler's List example would be.

Now if we went one step further and had a villain group in the game that could show up anywhere wearing swastikas then that would presumably be (using an appropriate WWII idiom) a bridge too far.

Personally I would still argue it'd be safer not to allow any swastikas at all in CoT even if you could nitpick a hypothetical scenario (like your time travel mission) where it might marginally be considered OK. Obviously the case where players could wear them would be miles beyond the "line" of acceptability.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games
I notice no CoD or newer Wolfenstein, which definitely have nazis and swasticas.

Maybe they did specific versions for the German market?

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

desviper wrote:
http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games
I notice no CoD or newer Wolfenstein, which definitely have nazis and swasticas.
Maybe they did specific versions for the German market?

Maybe instead they called them 'Facists' because they just didn't like the main protagonist's face. (A play on words, not a typo for all the spelling/grammar fascists. <--- see what I did there?)

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