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Sword of Columbia, Spirit of Freedom, doesn't cut flesh, only cuts Bonds?
Except for "Bond, James Bond." *grin*
Be Well!
Fireheart
Speaking only for myself I'd think:
Cool a superhero game. Shut up and take my money.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And if, on the off hand, the Flagship (Anthem or American "Sean Bean" Star) was what caught your attention (be it positive or negative) what would your analysis of her/his persona be?
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Yup! You're right! But that doesn't mean that they didn't make her look aggressive on that cover page and what not to give that impression.
But I do think you hit on something! Have Anthem be a lot like Magik!
steal big or go home?
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I have always seen her as a lot like Magik because of her visuals, but again.. no context on which to base that.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Ah, yes: Magik. One of the least known heroes in the history of comics. But just looking at a sword, you wouldn't know that it is harmless. No matter what her backstory is, even if that sword turned into a giant heart-shaped squeaky hammer (please don't be the case), a first glance it would say "this person kills".
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Because you don't have the context of who the character is actually supposed to be.
Also.. dissing Magik? Not winning any points from me there.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Not "dissing". Stating a fact. Unless you are a comic buff, you are unlikely to have ever heard of her. Same goes for one of my personal favorites: Weapon Alpha.
And as I said, context doesn't matter (in this case) because all you would get is a glance when showing off the Flagship (anthem or American "Sean Bean" Star) to the world. First impressions are *everything* when selling a product.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
It doesn't matter. It's a first impression. That's what the Flagship character will be.
For all we know, her background is she's really a guy, and dressing to look female is how she keeps her secret identity safe. *not opposed to this idea btw!*
The same would be for Wolverine, Magik, Spider-Man etc etc.
I know. I support people having opinions. I just don't support making changes based on opinions made without context.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
We gave you the context: first impression, no backstory, character with a blade, 60 seconds to sell it to the public.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
if the opinions are based on first impressions, and RELATE to first impressions... no context is relevant.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
As a customer I'm not going to give you TIME to use context if I don't like what I see on the cover. As I said, if you need a paragraph to explain it then it probably won't work.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
The opinion on needing a change is we see Anthem and think "Yeeeeeaaaah...I'll pass." and we're the ones who want to play the game. Now imagine it's someone who isn't us!
Well, things are getting a little heated over Anthem and Sean Bean (American Star). Let's talk about the villian Flagship(s) and the possibility of Rogue and Vigilante Flagships
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I haven't seen any art for these yet but I see the villain flagship as evil but with style. He or she won't be above using technology (whatever it takes...) but their primary focus should be their inherent power. I don't favor important villains being tech-based. It's too easy to catch them, take their tech and lock them up. I'd rather see someone with inherent power like Darkseid who uses tech to their advantage.
The vigilante flagship should have the look of a schemer. Vigilantes tend to be loners so they have to be careful. They plot and plan everything as much as possible. They also tend to be harsher, less forgiving. They won't be running around in colorful spandex to wow the crowds. They'll be lurking in the shadows, striking fear into the hearts of bad guys everywhere.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
The good news: it is always easy to add villains to comics.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
The flagship villain often has a direct relation to the flagship hero in my experience. They often have one staunch difference in core beliefs and philosophy that puts them at odds.
For this reason, it will take much more understanding of the story before hypothesizing about what said character should visually represent
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Spider-Man's a vigilante and isn't any of that.
Let's not mistake vigilante with CoH's terrible use of the word. :p
agreed, Brand X. In general "Vigilante" simply means "acting without the permission of citizen authority"
The actions of someone like Superman or Captain America are (depending on when we're talking) on some level "accepted" by the government at large. Not always "liked" but accepted.
A vigilante, on the other hand, works "outside" the law, but still works "for" justice. Batman is one sort of Vigilante, Spiderman another... but they both "should" be arrested if caught by the police, for breaking the law.
As for Villain Flagships, there are two ways to look at it. Either we have ONE primary villain (Recluse/Destroyer style) who embodies "evil" in the world, and is defined by their Alternative/ opposition to the Ideology established by the heroic Flagship....
or (as is more common in comics, imo) We have hierarchies of villains based on the "type" of origin.
that is to say, there would be a Flagship "science-gone-awry" villain, a flagship "technology" villain, a flagship "space" villain, a flagship "horror/fantasy" villain, etc.
...and then there would be lesser filth in each category.
Generally speaking, villains exist as a "rogues gallery" for various heroes (after all, they're designed as obstacles in the heroes path) and as such, they generally adhere to the "themes" of the hero.
Ironman's enemies involve technology
Spiderman's are all science-experiments
Batman's are all psychotic...
etc...
granted, not ALL heroes' rogues galleries follow this logic (flash has a couple of anti-flash types, but then a lot of random villains like the mirror guy)
but for the most part, it does follow that Villains are categorized by their origins just like heroes...
and it's only natural that they have a hierarchy therein.
I actually wrote out what I'd like to see in terms of "named villain" make up, on one of these threads.... if it wasn't this one, I'll try to find it and link it here...
But in any case, I still believe they should follow most (preferably all) of these qualities though:
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
No quite so, what you are describing is closer to an archenemy. If you recall, Captain America's archenemy was the Red Skull and no one would consider him to be the end-all-be-all of villains in the Marvel Multiverse. And in CoH, one of the biggest threats in the whole game was Lord Nemesis and he had little to no relationship to Statesman prior to his coup in the USA. He was really more of a threat to all heroes, even though he did hold Statesman in regard.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
no love for Baron Zemo :(
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
lol Well, he is not as well known. Mention the name to someone who is not a comic buff and all you get is "...wut?"
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
b-but.... dat hood. *sigh*
and yeah... really it's only Champs and DC that has the "nemesis=flagship" thing.
Cause It takes me a while to think of any other potential villain flagship in DC, besides Lex.... Joker's got presence, but he's far too self contained (he doesn't represent anything of the DC universe at large) and part of his appeal is his unconventional look (conventional for a joker, of course...unconventional for a villain)
Brainiac, maybe.. but far too alien (particularly in his more HR Giger phases) to really count.
Vandal Savage (one of my favorites) probably SHOULD be the flagship villain, but he's got zero presence outside of comic fandom and is sort of...well... bland a lot of the time. the whole 'always got more time' thing always gives him a touch too much cavalier.... like he couldn't be bothered if he loses or wins (which is cool for a villain, philosophically, but not very good print, unless you've got an awesome writer)
Ra's is probably the only other one whose even close and he's still far too much a "batman villain" than a "DC" villain.
everyone else is basically unknown outside of diehard comic fans
If anything, I'd say that DC is better (or worse?) about compartmentalizing their heroes. GL villains are GL villains, etc...
so by default, Superman's nemesis becomes the head villain of DC (because if Supes is the head of the Justice League.... generally speaking, it's going to have to be Lex fronting the Injustice league)
Marvel is better about having "one man" be a threat to many different foes. While there are plenty of Magnetos, Blackhearts, and Dormamus (who seem to threaten the entire world, constantly, but only ever seem to upset their own corner of the universe) there is also Doom and Phoenix and Galactus and the Kree or Skrulls(not individuals, i know) whose danger can strike at almost any corner of the Marvel Universe.
Luckily Marvel's got a Squirrel Girl to handle these sorts of things... but still.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I am of the mind that no matter the origin and backstory, the flagship for this game be willing to look for power in every form it takes. Cosmic, mystic, genetic, tech, natural, etc. This fellow must be danged hard to catch and difficult to tackle in a one on one fight (talking fistycuffs). Plans withen plans and capable of setting aside differences to save the Earth (for himself). Just in broad terms.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I donno.... that's very "doom-ish", but definitely not Lex.... or Thanatos...
I think we should look at what City of Titan's views as "evil", first.... what is the core ideology our heroes are fighting against?
It certainly isn't "power"... power is like "metal"... its a raw material not a goal.
At his core, Doom's philosophy is "the ends, no matter how harmful or amoral, justify the means"... but the reason why Doom works, is because he WANTS all this Power (from anywhere he can get it) to acquire [i]happiness[/i] (bring his wife and child back to life, steal sue from reed, etc) while at the same time destroying the happiness of those he feels have slighted him or ruined his other avenues for happiness (like Reed) or prevented him from acquiring the power he feels he needs to acquire happiness (everyone else)
He is using an "evil ideology" in an attempt to acquire something universally desired (happiness, "justice")
Lex is often portrayed in a similar light... where ends justify the means... but his ideology is different. His core belief, is that Humanity is the ultimate presence in the universe, he uses science, technology... anything really, to not only prove this fact.... but PROTECT his fradgile human form from an impossible threat (Superman).... so, deep down, he his seeking security and safety for humanity, against super-powered beings...
Evil for Evil's sake is just silly..... Baby-Eating Skeletor kicking a puppy just isn't very compelling.
Power is a tool....
...the goal is what matters.
When a universal, or even noble goal is perverted by the mentality that the ends justify the means... suddenly we get an arch villain.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I did say "in broad terms". In other words: I was defining that we most likely won't want a villain with a limited scope. If we are going to be clashing with this flagship villain and actually have reason to fear him when he is least in the spotlight, he must have innumerable means of attack.
Lex isn't that scary to your average super. He is easy to anticipate and is so blinded by the power he possesses that he has difficulty seeing the obvious even when it is spelt out to him (Superman's identity, for instance). Also, he rarely employs attacks outside of technology and science. He is a villain of Earth and bears no threat to the universe as a whole. Basically, his motives can be simplified to an inferiority complex.
Doom, Nemesis, and Recluse were well rounded examples, but I think we may want someone even more open minded to new sources of power and, dare I say, more impulsive. No, not impulsive. Divergent in thought. Erratic even. Less "high and mighty" and maybe more "I do as I please"?
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
A Joker type? Just one with broader range of goals then mess around with Bats?
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
No, more sane. I have a comic character in mind, I just can't place the face.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Got it! More akin to the High Evolutionary! Add a dash of megalomania and a interest in the occult and bingo: you have a great flagship villain.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
isn't High Evolutionary just a Moreau analogue?
I donno, he seemed pretty summed up in the "super science" school... hardly a Doom-ish "take what power I can find to fuel my ambition"
Personally, I'd really like to see a (legendary) Nobunaga Oda type figure... a mastermind of image and social politics with the ambition and cold calculation to do whatever was required to achieve his aims.
I'd much rather see a Flagship villain as someone who's got a finger in everyone else's pie, and is constantly hiring the major players to function at his behest (or her, of course)
...a name I have always loved is "Weaver" (which was utterly wasted in COX :-/) but that sort of idea...
A character with a plan, willing to do anything to acomplish it...
....we need a Moriarty, not just a Magneto... if that makes sense.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I meant more for his talent to press forward with his ambitions than his powers and origin. But I do agree, we need more Moriarty,not Magneto.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Alright, I've been doing some research and actually happened upon a villain from Marvel that may possess qualities in his origin and motives that will make him a threat to a City of Titans. I present to you: Dr. Karl Malus
[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSI_qlqPk8hw_PK321zifbhdzhZa0JdiQrKoeIM9dJQGSnCas8E[/img]
This fellow may not look impressive (kinda looks like Elton John imo) but his field of research is exactly what heroes dread. Dr. Malus studied super-powered beings in a bid to learn their powers and duplicate them; thus, giving him something to sell to your average criminal or world-beater. He never had much success outside of creating the super-augmented Goliath - who had the power of super strength at his nomal 6 foot hight (20 - 30 tons) which meant his powers increased well into the 100 class of strength when at his 60 foot height - and the Armadillo (typical super strong bruiser/armadillo hybrid).
Now, imagine if he was more successful and created beings like the Super Skrulls (there were many)
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Annihilation004_SKRULL_scaled_800.png[/img]
We would have quite a mess on our hands with a character with the same field of interest doling out super-powers to your average criminals.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
That sounds reasonable. But the villain or group of villains would have to last a substantial amount of time, it'd be kinda ridiculous to assume the development team could churn out villains every two weeks. They'd probably have to last two or three issues, or the equivalent. Unless it was from the premade villains. But that'd require a few good writers.
Your point about having a best hero or heores in a flagship is understandable. But it could be done where near the level cap you got the chance to fight alongside them, or something like that. Then you would be at leasg at par with them. I also think that there should be an inner circle instead of just one leader, kinda like the Justice League or something, but that's already been mentioned.
It'd be very difficult to advertise without a face or two for the game, so flagships are pretty much necessary. But I understand where you're coming from, Ghost. It'd be cool to have it be all your own story, but there's gotta be head honchos somewhere :)
Loo this topic is expanding so fast I cant keep up with whom I'm replying to :p
Honestly I'd be looking forward to Anthem if she is the flagship, after all it is pretty darn rare a super hero group has a female hero as their primary hero, however i do agree it would be a little concerning if she is too much just like wonder woman with a sword, i haven't seen any official art of he character so I'm unsure of how true this description is, and what's wrong with swords? They're a cool weapon just sometimes a little plain, maybe if it was some kind of energy sword or had some magical elemental powers that could work, like a fire sword. As for the flagship villain all i know is that i want him/her to have a commanding presence, with an awesome cape, and some personal history against the flagship hero, someone who would stop at nothing to achieve domination yet respective of his/her mortal enemy that way if there is some big event that heroes and villains need to face together it is more believable this villain would be willing for a temporary alliance, though still take no pleasure in it just doing what has to be done; the more mysterious this character is though the better.
Profile Pic via http://www.heromachine.com/heromachine-2-5-character-portrait-creator/ (missing hat and visible eyes but eh, what can you do) [img]https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1964839_721426151231254_1302170917_n.jpg[/img]
there is "official" (i.e. from MWM, not necessarily finalized) art of Anthem, in this very thread, Peter.
Auto... I actually like the idea of a Flagship villain whose whole deal is picking apart superpowers and attempting to augment/duplicate them....
though I would look to characters like Sylas... or better yet, Mr. Sinister as a more fitting personae.
There is a villain in Champs named [url=http://championsonline.wikia.com/wiki/Teleios]Teleios[/url] who, while sort of light-hearted in champs (due to the over all childishness of the tone of that game) really has a mentality and an agenda that would work great in our game....
If you follow the link, I particularly like the Lex-esque attitude of desirable non-superness... and yet being fully willing to use superness in others to achieve his aims.
I also like the idea of "perfectness" that centers his ideology (as a metaphor for mainstream conformity, and of idealized image in media)...
where "perfect" means "6-foot tall white male with blonde hair and blue eyes"
There are elements of crypto-fascism in that mentality.. but he doesn't come off as a "nazi".....
In game, he could be tackled many times over the course of the game... in various "forms" or in the background while you face one of his creations... Not to mention the possibility for cylon-like/skrull-like storylines, as he's able to create clones of anyone he's got genetic material from.
he's the sort of threat that can be as powerful or as weak as the plot requires... as accommodating (helpful/untrustworthy ally) or as utterly vile as required....
He could easily embody the personality of Lex Luthor (minus the Superman obsession), the perverseness of Mr. Sinister (minus the Summers obsession), and the megolomanic, "social selfishness" (no-fascism) of Magneto (without a particular subset of superness, like "Mutation" to restrain him)
He can also have a more debonare look (beautiful wealthy business man...Wayne/Stark-esque) ....a mad-scientist look (take that first guy, give him a lab coat and f-up his hair :P) and several forms of "villain wear" (maybe a cyber-ninja-ish suit for pulling of daring secret heists, and various (and ever more deadly) mech and bio-suits to aid him)
I think someone like that has a LOT of potential...
there's an element of Irony to the situation... having a Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne-esque character who, instead of fighting crime in his spare time... is this mega-creep.
but his calculated obsession with all things superpowered would tie perfectly into a "Training" mission, if they wanted to create something non-"denominational"
(you wake up in a lab with other people with powers, don't know how you got there, head's fuzzy, etc.... mild-mannered and attractive male scientist is guiding you through some basic activities... even has you fight some of the other "patients".... his dialogue getting ever-more "off" and demanding as you go... then, as the training instance ends, his "hulk-buster" wardens restrain you so he can steal your powers, when Anthem and her team bust in and save the day (rescuing potential hero and villain alike))
clean, neat, and easy to write a story around (i.e. he could have captured you at any time in your development as a hero, or villain and his "experiments" could be what are inhibiting your abilities... or causing them in the first place, etc)
no need to worry about "but I'm a [Origin N]!" or "My character wouldn't DO [X]..."
all can be explained away by the Flagship's drives and goals... and his "bio-treatments".
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I pointed out the Super Skrulls because they had mystic augmentation as well. Whomever this villain would be, he would also have a team of scholars researching how to transfer powers through mystical means, not just scientific. And I wasn't really dead set on Dr. Malus's persona or appearance, more his motivation/goals.
Yeah, it is getting rather large. But I really hope that more people chime in. Whether we agree with one another is irrelevant, just so long as we keep cranking out ideas and give the devs an idea of what we expect from the flagships (or lack of) then we are on the right track.
On a more personal note: CoT is meant o be the spiritual successor of CoH. As such, its Flagships should carry a similar tone to the Flagships of CoH. This may be easy to duplicate in the case of the villains(we haven't discussed them in detail yet), but do both American Star and Anthem have the same tone as Statesman? It is hard to get one character to carry that same tone, but two who are supposed to be vastly different characters? Very improbable. Just food for thought.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
An anthem, in battle, might be a rally cry. That does suggest leadership.
I imagined Anthem's powers would be sonic. The sword is a symbol for striking back. Anthem gives voice to those who would not be heard. To speak out against injustice or censorship. She can empower a terrified victim to scream back at the attacker. Perhaps using the sword for emphasis, the individual is empowered with one sonic attack and the inclination to use it.
Mugger at entrance of an alley is trying to steal a purse from a passer-by. Anthem lands nearby. "Leave her alone."
Mugger looks skeptically at the young hero. "C'mon, you know she wants to give it to me. You can be next."
Anthem points her sword at the victim. Victim's eyes light up. "NO." Knockback launches the mugger down the alley.
Mugger lifts himself out of the trash. "Why you..."
Anthem steps up beside the victim. "No means... NO." The mugger is embedded under piles of trash. A brick from the alley wall falls on the pile as Anthem escorts the victim to safety.
The flashy American costume with warrior elements reminds the crowd of their Rights. It has parallels with the old man in the Berlin crowd during the Avengers movie. The media might also want to get behind this hero, free speech and all, quickly elevating her to flagship status. Meanwhile, all Anthem wants to do is to protect those without a voice, by being their voice, or giving it to them. A reluctant mouthpiece with a heroic heart.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
I like the idea of the sonic blast, still don't care for the sword.
For one, it's like people don't read forums. I get it that bad guys can't go dying left and right in a comic. But fans, fans are usually stupid. Let's look at Batman, someone who keeps apprehending the Joker, who keeps escaping to kill more people.
Then we get fans who go, why doesn't he just kill the Joker?! Nevermind, that not only turns Batman into a vigilante who thinks he's judge, jury and executioner, it would have the media and people clamoring for Batman to kill the Joker, turning against him just as quickly.
So, if she's not willing to kill bad guys with her sword, why carry it? I'd be more inclined to believe she wasn't carrying a blade to kill if it was a knife, of course, that wouldn't seem as impressive as the sword.
I too can't wait for the context of her character design.. but again, until we know what the purpose of the design are we can't adequately say whether or not the design successfully translates that purpose.
I say Wolverine is the most visible hero in the Marvel Universe. Yeah he has sharp metal claws and is aggressive but it hasn't hindered his storytelling potential any. Assassin, Samurai, sure, but also School Principal.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I see your point about the sword. I suppose it was used because it's a common tool of a hero. Easy to get a dramatic pose for advertising too.
The sonic ability is good, IMO, but I think we can find something better. Are we still sticking with the one armored arm costume, or have we gone with something else? I think that the costume, to some degree, embodies the abilities of the character.
Really? I would've have said Spider-Man or Captain America over Wolverine.
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