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Spiderman often differed to Captain America. Captain Marvel idolized Superman. Though they were just as popular and powerful, there was a hierarchy in the superhuman community that had to be respected. Are you suggesting that the this hierarchy should be disposed of? That everything works out so that your character never has to answer to anyone? Just seems a little bland.
As for Red's idea, unless that can be adapted for heroes too, it seems to fall short.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
It makes more sense for villains than.heroes, to be honest.
captain marvel is a kid in a man's body.... spiderman would lose to cap A :P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Maybe young an inexperienced Spidey would, but experienced Spidey? No way. :p
Cap was like the batman of Marvel for a while.... just with super strength and nigh indestructablity.
the only hero I'd be certain could beat cap in a fight without villainous cheating, would be Squirrel Girl.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Why? What's wrong with having a rolling gallery of Heroes [i]who occasionally get bumped off their perch by Villains[/i] and then someone else needs to step up and take their place?
To use a really bad example ... suppose Superman has been taken out of action (*cough* Kryptonite *cough*) and now someone else has to fill his shoes as "leader" of the Heroes. Wonder Woman steps in and takes over the leading role [i]for a while[/i] and at some point Superman gets rescued (ala, rescue Statesman from the Reichsman style) and needs to spend a period recovering at his Fortress of Solitude (or whatever) and is unavailable for house calls. So Wonder Woman stays in the lead role for a while.
Then Wonder Woman gets knocked off her perch for {insert excuses here reason} and someone ELSE needs to take over the job of being the "leading hero" for a while ... and so on and so forth.
Part of the reason why you can't do this sort of thing in comic BOOKS is because the books themselves are so short (go figure, right?) and because doing this requires a huge mess of continuity that a diversity of authors working on different character lines would need to "honor" with their storylines, and the whole thing just becomes a huge problem of herding cats. It's just EASIER to say that the pecking order in the comic book world is immutable a never changing so that Superman is ALWAYS the blue schoolboy that everyone else defers to, and so on. Needless to say, this sort of Eternal Sameness is why the "Death Of A Hero" storylines are so traumatic for comic book lines, since they cut against the grain of supers being "eternal" the way that comic books "need" them to be.
At any rate ... a lot of those storytelling conventions get [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration]defenestrated[/url] when you've got a single team of writers doing the storyline for a MMORPG like City of Titans. Suddenly, the possibility that the "lead hero" and the "lead villain" role in the city [b]CAN CHURN OVER TIME[/b] becomes one that makes a whole lot of sense. Or to put it another way, you don't "win the game" necessarily on the strength of your most powerful player on the team, but rather with the depth of your bench (to put it in sporting metaphor terms).
And if you've got both a rogue's gallery and a hero's gallery of good guys and bad girls rotating through the respective leadership positions for "control" over the City of Titans ... well then ... what's to stop *US* ... THE PLAYERS ... from potentially throwing our cape in the ring too, and becoming the "leader" of either side (for 15 minutes, before getting knocked off the throne too)?
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Competition breeds ... ???
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think you misunderstood Auto's comment, Red.
he was saying exactly that. "IF it DOESN"T work with heroes, it DOESNT work for ME"
he wasn't saying it couldnt/shouldnt work with heroes.
if anything, I was saying it was less likely, because "Flagship" heroes don't really work that way in comics... the "consensus of the universe" doesn't really vary on "who's the best superhero".... Sure, there are FAN arguments.... but in the lore iteself, it's usually fairly well established what the pecking order is... and a change in that status quo is a MAJOR deal in the setting.
My problem with the Rolling hero really is the same as flagships in general..... that putting a Superman in the game, makes him the default problemsolver.. which makes our characters the errand boys and fire dousers...
...when you have a whole TEAM of these types? suddenly we've been relegated to B... or even C-squad. (since there are plenty of other well known, NPC heroes who aren't part of the Super Friends, but still see fit to boss us around)
and that just isnt....comic-book-y
To my mind.. the only way an MMO works, is if WE, the PLAYER CHARACTERS are "the Super Friends".... if we don't fix things... there's not patriarchal figure in a cape who's going to swoop in and save the day for us... once he's finished his press conference and destroyed Mr. Vile's Doomsday device.
Villain NPCs constantly working their way up a ladder of semi-allies to see which is the Biggest Baddest Villain in town (who "owns" Titan City) seems not only more thematic, but more realistic.
Heroes don't, generally, actively fight to be "top dog" in the hero community. Villains constantly fight to be on top of the villain community.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
To keep the churn on both sides of the coin equal, some mechanic must exist that balances the speed and ability for each side to churn to the next flagship. That is, IF flagships are single-persons.
It's difficult to make hero-side churn. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think the cards are stacked to keep heroes in the position they set down. It could be things like, "Hancock needs to serve time for some of his reckless behavior that is costing the city" (like a time-out), or some annual (or more frequent ingame) hero's tournament that takes into account morality, methods, honor, lawfulness, etc. to determine the hero of the year that gets to be the moral north for a set amount of time...kinda like a leadership term. If someone who say, has a more violent method compared to last year's pacifist, it could influence how the NPC hero groups behave. If it's an ingame event (player vs player vs "dev" tournaments even?!) then players could literally compete to be rewarded with a few months as Superpowered Liason to Titan City or some special title that includes an avatar of the winner that does some SLTC task force or some other ingame recognition perks.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
GhostHack, that's actually the outlines of an argument/discussion that I was having with Protean at the last Player Summit concerning the Well of the Furies and the threat of Battalion coming along the "drain the well" of all its power so as to keep that power for themselves. This all tied into the whole Flagship role, and how multiple alternate Earths in the City of Heroes game lore were essentially identified and organized around "Their" signature flagships.
You had Tyrant on Praetorian Earth.
You had Reichsman on Nazi Earth.
You had Battle Maiden from War Earth(!).
There were the Rikti from Riki Earth.
There was a Warwolves Earth.
There was a Clockwork King Earth.
There was an Earth where everyone left were dead and angry spirits.
There was a Recluse's Victory Earth.
There was a Shivan Earth, where all that was left "alive" were Shivans (presumably because Battalion invaded).
There was even (hinted at) in the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mission:Tip_-_My_Other_Selves]My Other Selves[/url] Villain Morality Mission that YOUR CHARACTER would become not only the "flagship" character, [b]but also the only living entity left in the ENTIRE GALAXY[/b] after exterminating all other life forms you ever encountered (including Frostfire, who [i]totally deserved it[/i]).
My argument to Protean was that each of the Alternate Earths either had to have their own Well of the Furies ... or the Wells were all "cross linked" to each other across dimensions and essentially "competing" in parallel to come up with the ANSWER to what it would take to defeat Battalion, who were on their way to Drain The Well. So across all of the different Earths and timelines, only SOME of them "spawned" people powerful enough to have a HOPE of being able to go up against Battalion ... with the varieties of Marcus Cole (Statesman, Tyrant, Reichsman, et al.) being simply the most familiar to the playerbase, but also including Lord Recluse (who was, at his heart, "hostile" to the Well), Lady Grey (relationship to the Well, unknown), Hero One/Honoree, [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hamidon]Hamidon Pasalima[/url] ... but all of those "bets" or "investments" by the Well, if you will, followed the All Eggs In One Basket strategy, often yielding only a handful of "champions" for the Well to use.
But on Prime Earth (Paragon City), the Well of the Furies got "fed up" with being stymied by its chosen champions (Statesman, Lord Recluse, Lady Grey) and Hamidon kept failing to live up to the potential seen on Praetorian Earth (and kept getting stomped by NON-Incarnates!) ... so on Prime Earth, as a matter of what amounts to desperation, the Well of the Furies decided to try a "scattershot" approach to empowering champions, rather than continuing to go "all in" on just a tiny handful of cards. In other words, the Well began distributing its power WIDELY instead of into a singular narrow focus, essentially "betting" that Quantity Has A Quality All Of Its Own, since the Well's "choices" as Quality Champions (Statesman and Lord Recluse) wasn't turning out so hot. And then Statesman went and got himself bumped off by a No Name LOSER and well ... that was it for HIM as far as the Well of the Furies was concerned! Good riddance to bad rubbish!
Anyway, the key to this long winded stem winder story I'm telling you is that I was arguing to Protean (at a time when it might have mattered) that as the Battalion storyline unfolded, it would have to be the PLAYERS who step up and become the Flagships of the franchise ... NOT the Surviving Eight (now whittled down to Six thanks to the power of Script Immunity and the need for stuffing [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators]Women In Refrigerators[/url] courtesy of Dr. Aeon's writing). At the time I was telling him this, Protean was either giving me his very best Poker Face or hadn't considered the angle that I was giving to him on how to play out and tell the Battalion storyline. The very IDEA that the Players would intentionally be written in such a way as to surpass, rather than be subordinate to, the longstanding Flagships of the IP, appeared to be both novel and thought provoking for him ... kind of like how when during the Battalion panel at the last Player Summit I asked Positron, Dr. Aeon and Protean about who were the people, on Prime Earth, ALREADY working for and collaborating with Battalion? Who are the infiltrators? Who are the spies? Who are the advance scouts? Who do we already "know" but have never suspected be revealed as a "mole" working for Battalion?
I'll never forget the way that Positron (metaphorically) rocked back on his heels (in his chair) when I asked that question, turned to look at Dr. Aeon and Protean with a very thoughtful look, silently communicating with them by facial expression, seeing the look of surprised interest IN THEM TOO as they realized where I was leading with this question (and how much fun they could have with it on down the line). Positron then looked back at me at the microphone and said, quite drolly (I thought) ... "That's a very interesting question."
Although it never got connected explicitly in quite the way that I'm piecing (now ancient) history together here, *I* at least am completely convinced that my asking that specific question at the 2012 Spring Player Summit is the reason why [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Steven_Sheridan]Steven Sheridan[/url] was due to be revealed as an Agent of Battalion(!) in Issue 25.
So yeah ... the idea of *allowing* the Player Characters to BE the "flagship" characters of City of Titans? I'm totally okay with that. The trick however is figuring out how to WRITE the stories and story arcs that make that seem plausible and reasonable.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Red.... You're very smart, and you have good (even great) ideas, at times....
but it is SO DAMNED HARD to read your posts. You spend 99% of them regailing me with a story of some anecdote or past conquest which only VAGUELY "matters" to the conversation, no matter how well it relates.
I can't help feeling that everytime I see a post longer than a paragraph, from you, that I'm just going to be reading another story of you telling me how awesome you are.
...and, no offence... I don't really care.
I'm glad that you think Players can (or even SHOULD) be considered the "flagship teir" of Titans.... nothing else in that post mattered to, or supported the concept, though.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Thank goodness, I thought I was the only one thinking that.
At any rate, I was thinking about Anthem as a flagship. Maybe she would be less threatening towards those who do not want an authority figure if she was presented less like another generic amazonian like woman and more like an awkward young leader that is in no way ready to fill those shoes. This would leave her open to lean on the player character and actually easy to sympathise with. As time goes on, the players of the game will get to see her grow.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Honestly, I'm of two minds about that idea, Auto.
My immediate thought is: That sounds Awesome! It's a great way to incorporate a flagship concept without having a world Patriarch that we're stuck pandering to... and rather than having to "contend" with the perception that Flagships are the Protagonist of their universe.. the idea actually plays INTO that perception by allowing Anthem to actually have a story of growth....
but, then, as soon as I think a little further on, and try to imagine this set up in game... Imagine if Fussionette became the new Flagship...
I mean, we see this characters as a bumbling newbie (functionally)... we help her out constantly, saving her ass or helping her complete her own objectives..... and some how SHE'S the hero everyone cares about? Why, cause of some bizarre Hero Community Nepotism? TOTAL BS, Man! I'm twice the hero she is!
.....and it just gets worse from there.
The problem lies purely in game mechanics, imo.... in that, as we level up, we just fight tougher and tougher threats.... but as ANTHEM "levels up"... she becomes the head of the Super Friends and defeats Mr. Vile and gets her picture on the front cover of every news paper, and a statue of her raised in Phoenix Plaza.....
there is an undercurrent of hypocracy and bitterness that follows that sort of story...
this "shining ideal" is exposed (to the player) as a sham, because we're the ones who did all the heavy lifting...
...meanwhile, she's getting all the "credit"
I really really like the core idea... in fact, I would love to see a handful of these characters... a couple of Fresh off the Bus heroes (and/or Villains) who we encounter early on, and then sort of "see how they progress" as we level up... some might go from idealistic heroes at level 1 to baby eating psychos by level30.... others might start out as violent thugs and rise above that life to become beacons of heroic society...
...and our character's "alignment" would cause us to react differently (that thug we robbed banks with at level 5 might become a sort of nemesis by level 30, constantly trying to thwart us as a reformed Hero... or maybe he's asking us for help in fighting some mob boss from "the old days" now that we're both reformed.... or might be swooping in and stealing our ill gotten gains because they're no more loyalty among thieves... etc, et al)
The idea has great potential... but I think it has some problems as a plot arch for a Flagship.
NOW, if she'd "hurt" herself.. so she was out of comission, and we sort of took up the mantle a little ourselves.. and over the course of OUR story, she's getting better.. until finally she's "well" by the time we've reached max level.. and basically says "look, I can protect the city with my friends, now... but there are bigger threats out there.... END GAME CONTENT!"
....THAT might work. but it presupposes that Anthem is unable to be a hero for a good portion of the game through no fault of her own.... which kind of hinders her appeal as a flagship.
(unless the opening cinematic is essentially Bane breaking Batman's back.... and now heroes from all over are coming to protect Titan City, while her First Daughter is laid low....)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Perhaps you are looking at it wrong? We will be forging our own legend as Anthem grows. Even if we are not Captain America we will be the far more awesome Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Wolverine, Batman, etc.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
A "flagship character" is the face of the franchise, the main character of the story the writers at MWM can tell without having to worry about outside influences and factors. Is that the size of it?
If that is the case, then the flagship character does not need to be the most powerful person nor the main character in any but their own story. It is scarcely a given that they be 'champion of the world'. This stance is supported by Warcabbit's statement that the players are going to remain the most important people in the game.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
And Darth Fez "nails it" so that I don't have to.
It's simply a different mode and style of storytelling. Instead of Players being "helpers" to the NPCs ... the NPCs have storylines that take place [i]alongside those of the Player Characters[/i]. Easiest way to deal with this is to write Anthem's story as being one where she joins a SG that is NPCs only and rises through the ranks ... just like a PC could with their SG. Put the NPCs on a [i]parallel track[/i] to the PCs and you get an entirely different kind of storytelling that is more supportive than it is patronizing.
(there, was that too much text for you, GhostHack?)
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[nope, that's perfect :D ;P]
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
The only problem I see with this is that, in the backstory as currently envisioned, Anthem picked up American Star's mantle (and sword ^_^) way back in 1998. Over fifteen years ago, closer to seventeen by launch (Do we have a specific date for Hurricane Atlas? Just curious ^_^). She's not a new hero anymore, if she hasn't grown into those shoes by now, we may need to look to someone else to fill them.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Well, if you ask me, whoever designed Anthem's backstory was focusing *only* on passing the mantel to her and nothing else.
Player: "What were her powers before American Star handed her the sword?"
Dev: " Who cares?!"
Player: " Why does she have a better name than her mentor?"
Dev: "We have better things to do than think of a name for a has-been!"
Player: "Isn't this whole thing eerily similar to the Hero 1/ Ms.Librety dynamic, only that Anthem is African American and American Star isn't British?"
Dev: ".....What's that over there!?" *runs away*
The whole thing feels rushed and sloppy: I would not shed one tear if they rewrote that. They have two years to play with the story-line, so they had better sharpen those pencils and get to the scribbling if they want this thing to fly.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Respec Token.
/em Hovers away
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Ahhh... hover.....
Thanks for the visual Red, that gave me a good nostalgic chuckle.
And I honestly don't remember the "storyline" between Hero 1 and Libby..... despite being in COH in beta (I have an old commission of my main beating Lady Lib up in a back alley :P)
but if that's the case... I really think it should be considered NECESSARY that we distance ourselves from any re-skinned theft of intellectual content. :-/
the game should FEEL like the best part of COX... but it shouldnt be the equivalent of players creating "The BULK" or "Victor Dom Voom" :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
We aim to please.
Although in this case we are pleased to aim ... ^_~
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
"The sword Ms. Liberty carries is the fabled Excalibur, which Hero 1 entrusted it to Miss Liberty while he journeyed to the Rikti homeworld with the rest of the Omega Team, and she passed it down to her daughter. Although she cannot wield the sword, Ms. Liberty carries it at her side waiting for the day when Hero 1 returns." ~ http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ms._Liberty
*Maybe* they have enough wiggle room. I am still not sold on this idea though.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Did you just do a self buff reference pun?
and Auto... NO, I dont want us biting off any previously published storylines if we can avoid it.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Trust me, we are in agreement about that. I do not want us ripping off CoH or any other comic book franchise.
I really just want to thank everyone who has contributed to this post so far: with any luck, the people who make the decisions will eventually take notice of this forum. That combined with Ghosty's forum survey *might* get some favorable changes going.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
you mean....
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/anthem-community-survey
This survey?
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
That is exactly the one.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I don't think the bumbling hero growing into a non-bumbling awesome hero will work.
Everything about CoH and it's playebase makes me believe they'll latch onto certain characters whether they're actually good or not.
Also, the playerbase will nitpick every little detail of the writing. So even if Batman does all he can, the audience will be all NO HE DIDNT! Yes, you can blame it on bad writing, but the audience needs to be willing to just let some things go :p Yes, Manticore should've done better, Statesman should've done better, hell his death scene was terrible, but part of that was on the devs. the other part being a playerbase who were easily able to latch onto Ghost Widow and Desdemona, but not Statesman or Recluse.
Basically, while I think Anthem needs work, probably anything they do, even if we here on the forums agree "OKAY THIS IS PERFECT" when the game goes live, most of the player base will latch onto some crappy character who had just as little background but was thought was awesome *cough*BackAlleyBrawler*cough*
Let's not talk about what people *may* do. We can't prepare for every twist and turn along the road. However, the KS info heavily implies that we will be getting a Ms.Liberty knock-off shoehorned into the role of a Flagship. This is not nit-picking, this is the basis for an actual and valid complaint about just how poorly concieved her character currently is. And I did not say "bumbling" I said that she wouldn't be ready *yet*.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
May do? I don't think it's so much a may, as a will.
I think the CoT community will do the same thing as it did in CoH. I just hope the writers don't fall into the trap that the CoH writers did...like turning one gag Freakshow NPC into a joke that's gone to far and ruined what could've been a good enemy group.
Just thinking here: if ever a CoT movie is made, Sean Bean should be cast as American Star. He would be used to the insultingly short amount of screen time. Just saying.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
naw.. if he was, then he'd have to play the charming, slightly jaded, character who is actually a villain.
Man, I love Sean, but he's been typecast hard by hollywood.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I never thought of [url=http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0028205/?ref_=fn_ch_ch_1]Richard Sharpe[/url] as a villain. Charming, check. Slightly jaded, check. Villain? Only from the perspective of the French and occasionally American forces he was fighting against, and not so much the latter. Of course, he was in the military that, decades later, would lead [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipling]Kipling[/url] to comment about [url=http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/840/]barracks and plaster saints[/url].
A lot more screen time in those movies for Sean Bean, as well. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Richard Sharpe wasn't hollywood, For ;P
and I LOVE Sean as Sharpe... he was the model for half my male protagonists, growing up.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Lol Well, lets add a little depth to American Star (gotta change that name) and model his alter ego on Sean. Now this guy actually seems interesting and danged funny that he still has to die. Poor Sean XD
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
with Sean's general personality/MO....
I see him as someone who was a soldier (I swear I remember something about him having been around since the revolution, but maybe I'm just making that up?)
He retired.... I'd even say "renounced" the soldier's life. sheathed his sword for good. (basically believing that war ultimately solved very little, and only necessary when good men did nothing earlier on...)
he began wearing his sword in it's scabbard (the sheathed blade) as a symbol of the strength in NOT drawing a weapon.
His promotion of this ideology caused an encounter with the "guardian of the spirit of freedom" (call her Columbia, cause we should) who gives him powers (in the form of Armor, or a cape, or just physically imbued with awesomeness, Captain Marvel Style)
With the rise of various villains, he makes it his mission to thwart evil, before it has a chance to threaten everyone with full on war (or an equal level of destruction)
I could imagine Sean Bean in as that sort of character... speaking passionately, but wearily, about the threat of these individual villains to the state of the world... and occasionally having to get the job done, himself.
A man of Honor, but not "high society"
And the name "American Star", if a bit cheesy, I think works fine. could be some fictional Medal of honor he was awarded that no one else was, or some such.... or, if he's got armor, it could be emblazoned on his chest plate.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'm not sold on the name, but with Sean Bean's personality I can totally see this character being an icon. Still iffy on the sword, but maybe a change in costume would help him too?
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
He's got a costume?
I actually like the symbolism of a sheathed sword. Scabbards hold the power to destroy... they contain it, protect the innocent from it.
perhaps it was a 'key to the city' type deal. AS giving his calvary saber to the City as a sign of his duty.... and was then given to Anthem, as she took the mantle up...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Yes, but passing down an unused sword is even closer to the Hero 1/Ms. Liberty dynamic .
As for the costume, I last saw it on the Titan network along side Anthem's. I'll look it up and post the image in the flagship art forum.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Yes, but passing down an unused sword is even closer to the Hero 1/Ms. Liberty dynamic .
As for the costume, I last saw it on the Titan network along side Anthem's. I'll look it up and post the image in the flagship art forum.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=5765.0
I decided to link Sithrose's entire thread. This shows that Anthem (then named American Star) has changed very little since her lore's unveiling on October 15th 2012 (more than a month before CoH shut down) and I believe it also shows Sean Bean (American Star) in full costume as well. The backstory is very "meh" imo. Unfortunatly, the devs have a bite on this like a pitbull. It will be difficult to offer any constructive feedback, sadly for no other reason than Anthem is what *they* want.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I can't really say I find the story impressive or iconic or remarkable or memorable.
Mind you, I'm not saying my own creations are. :p
But for all the talk of bad backgrounds we heard from forum goers on the CoH forums, this one isn't any better.
Ok...I was not aware that this was running parallel with the Flagship Art thread so forgive me if this is redundant to my post there. Also, it might be more productive to stay on track rather than speculate who will play a fictitious character for a movie that may never be made from a game that isn't done yet. Just sayin...
As drawn, I don't see the Anthem concept working. Her mentor American Star (REALLY gotta fix that name...) dies and she gains her powers by carrying his sword and wearing his armor. NONE of this says 'Anthem' to me. It's nebulous and unfocused...not brave, loyal or patriotic.
Someone posted a paperdoll image with no armor but a shoulder cape that was a piece of a flag. THIS works for me. An anthem is a song or symbol just like a flag is supposed to be. Btw carrying a sword you cannot use as a sign of respect is nice...but dumb. Especially if it's a rare/powerful/magical artifact-y thing. It scream PLOT DEVICE, STEAL ME! so loud I'm rendered deaf by it. You want her to HAVE a sword, fine. Have her leave it at home under magical scry-proof glass so every jerk in the world doesn't try to steal it every other week.
I have no problem with a flagship character but like Captain American she need not be the most powerful being in the city or on the earth. Cap is the symbol he is because of his courage, dedication and patriotism...not because of his power. People follow him because they trust his desire to do RIGHT, not because he's the most powerful. I see nothing wrong with Anthem having these qualities.
Part of the theme of CoT could be (for the hero side at least) the fact that Anthem and her peers are NOT the most powerful supers in the city. How would the player's attitudes change if Anthem's approach went something like this:
"Hey MegaPowerGuy...I'm glad to see you! My contacts informed me that EvilBadass is back in town and up to no good. I went to investigate but his fortress is too strong. I'm wounded and need some time to recover. However he has some hostages in there and I don't think we can wait for the rest of my team to show up. I heard how you handled (previous villain plot arc) and I think you can get the job done. It's pretty dangerous though. Will you do it?"
Right here I get a good feeling. First off, she credits others (her contacts) instead of saying SHE dug up the information on her own (like she can be everywhere at once...). Then she admits to the blunder of going alone instead of waiting for her team. Now she needs MY help because there's a time pressure and she thinks I might be MORE powerful than she is. None of that 'Will you go do this for me because I'm too awesome to be bothered?' crap. If we're on a team then the story fits even better.
Anthem and her peers do NOT have to be the most powerful beings in the city to be good as Flagships...they just have to embody an ideal. Honor, courage and (especially in her case) the willingness to step up and take responsibility even when it would be easier to hand it off to someone else. Some other things they can embody: Humility (we're not as powerful as you players are), wisdom (we KNOW we're not as powerful as you players are), teamwork (we'll do the leg work because we've been in the city longer...it doesn't matter who takes the credit in the end).
To me this would make a good Flagship team.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
For the record... I only mentioned the 'sword as a symbol' idea as a means of keeping an (IMO) unlikeable element for a flagship superhero and making it more agreeable.
I'd rather not see a flagship hero weild a weapon designed to kill people.... But if that is going to be part of her design, I hope it would have reason never to be unsheathed....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Don't villains need motivations and rallying calls to their cause? By having a divisive hero with a weapon with the power to kill it make being a "freedom fighting" villain that much more actionable
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm not suggesting ALL heroes be martial weapon-free... but flagship heroes should represent the ideal of heroism.
and, no... villains don't need heroes to be 'questionable' to rally them.... they're villains, heroes are oobstacles 'freedom fighters' are either honest, and fighting against actual tyranny(and therefore either vigilantes or outright heroes)... or dishonest, and could care less if authority figures are actually morally grey.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'm saying that your desire to tell one aspect of a story detracts from all the other possible stories. This "editorial mandate" style thinking is (my opinion) bad for storytelling.
They have a story they're telling and as is my experience with art, the strength of originality far outweighs the desire to be relatable or understood. I want a Lady Gaga, not a Katy Perry
Crowd Control Enthusiast
You never question your art, or writing ability? And as much as I hate tampering with the work of a fellow writer: this is not a novel or art commission. This is going to be a very vast living world that will be sold to the American *public*, not us forumites. As such, it is required that the story and characters be edited.
I would be more than happy to show a few...oh, say: hundred examples where you could be proven wrong. It can go both ways, my friend.
P.S: I dislike both Gaga and Perry, so your example doesn't apply to me. Try something to do with comic books and maybe your argument will hold some weight with me and some other forumites.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
One or two of us Europeans might be interested in having a look at the game, as well. Just sayin'.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
My desire is to have specific characters have specific identities.
Captain America, or superman, is not "All characters for all people"
they stand, even in the "real world" of their respective universes as IDEALS. Now, within their worlds, others have different opinions about those ideals (out dated... or just a stones throw from tyranny) but THEY don't embody those grey aspects.... (apart from specific storylines where their ideals or even identity are challenged.)
I am in no way 'limiting' a character from having a different view of the world, I am saying that the Flagship of a universe defines the moral ideals of that universe. (with "heroic" flagships embodying what is most "prized" in the universe, and "villainous" flagships exposing what is most "dangerous")
and as such, from a "god-down viewpoint" they cannot be "grey" (from a social or personal perspective they can be grey, but their core being... their silhouette, their archetype... cannot be.)
It's not so much a [i]personal[/i] "editorial mandate"..... as it is a necessary component of the concept.
you debated Katy Perry vs. Lady Gaga.... but what you're saying is
"why don't they have penises, so Taylor Swift can denounce their fans as perverts?! Why aren't you allowing for that option?"
Katy Perry has a specific personae, Lady Gaga another... but they BOTH fit the mold of a "Female Pop Star" (as opposed to, say, Tegan and Sara or Bruno Mars)
Flagship characters have certain foundations that must exist.... or they aren't flagships. It's the reason why people can say "Oh, well, he's not really dead..." or "Pfft, he's just pretending to be a Good guy" or "how long can this "heel turn" last, really?"
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Now see, I much prefer KP over LG :p
Ah, sorry about that Fez, I misphrased. But I believe thatyou got my point: we, the forumites, are already sold. It is now a question about everyone else who is not a diehard CoH fan.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
As any Japanese RPG player can tell you ...
Guns don't kill people.
[b]SWORDS KILL PEOPLE !!![/b]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
It would be interesting if MWM occasionally released information about what people are using and buying from the store. As Segev pointed out in another thread (more or less), what people play, how they play, and, in particular, what they spend their money on is the voice of that nebulous silent majority. If the forum clamors for more of Item X, but only 3% of the player base showed an interest in buying it, it makes a strong case for MWM not to produce more things like Item X.
Anyway! We're certainly not a sample size to make it wise for MWM to base their decisions on our feedback, but I think we make a decent enough indicator for our feedback to weigh into their decisions. And, as the adage goes, you can't please everyone.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I think we can all agree. For those of us suggesting any changes, we would just like to know that MwM is willing to step back and look at their options before saying "this is how it is, deal with it."
On that note, I came up with an idea for a 4 flagship structure that may be favorable to all. Sean Bean is still dead in this idea - not going to stop calling American Star that - but he is more in the spotlight, even in death. He is flagship 1. Then we have Anthem, his successor, who may or may not be changed from her current image. She is flagship 2. Then there is Rottweiler (seems to be a fan favorite) this guard-dog of justice has been around long enough to work his way up the ranks of heroic icons. He is flagship 3. Then there would be the yet to be created flagship 4. I was thinking this may be the young up-and-comer, his persona would be akin to the big red cheese Captain Marvel or Spiderman.
I am throwing a lot of flagship guidelines out the window, but I think this "round table" approach would make the most people happy. It would also take the focus off of any one hero.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
So... more Avengers than Justice league...
actually, a "Camelot has fallen" sort of set up....
I think Rottweiler makes a solid vigilante-hero (do everything but kill you, ala batman) though I do hate is revamped outfit (much preferred the zentai-suit look :P)
He is tough, older.. been doing this a while and somewhat cynical and jaded. The batman to American Star's Superman, so to speak...
Anthem is the young idealist (works better this way)
And the last is the First Family of Titan City... the married heroes Michael Riggs ("Rook") and his reformed villainess wife ("Charm") Elizabeth
This gives us a better gender balance, and also provides additional variety and complexity. Rotty is a darker hero with a bad reputation (a man that American Star trusted and respected.... but few else did). Rook is a cheerful hero that's always ready with something encouraging to say (our all-american boyscout, since AS is a bit more roguish). Charm is something like a magical version of Catwoman who eventually got won over by her underlying desire to do the right thing and Rook's personality.
Rottie's the scrappy one
Rook's the brick
Charm's the magic/blasty type
American Star WAS the leader (blending a bit of scrap, a bit of tank, and "buffing" :P)
and Anthem WAS something like a controller (moving around the fight atheltically causing mayhem/distraction... robin or spiderman-ish.)
Nowdays... it's not really a team anymore.
Rook and Charm are semi-retired (the still do the hero thing, but they aren't driven like they used to be... they're more often doing PR stuff for the city and world peace and the like)
AS is gone, obviously
Rottie is back to the shadows and the streets, putting boot to face for justice and generally making a bad name for himself in the eyes of the city.
and Anthem is working to try and support the new heroes of Titan City to live up to American Star's ideals. (while still fighting evil as hard as she can!)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Anthem has a story already, a full lore and mythos all her own. People are asking for that to be altered for various reasons.
I say let Anthem be Anthem.
We don't have a real idea who many of the characters are yet, and it seems instead of getting to know them we're already to mold them into these things they are not (or maybe they already are.. but we haven't taken the time to get to know).
Measure the kinetic energy. Potential energy is much harder to quantify. Once we get to see/know Anthem THEN decide whether she "works" for you. There are surely some great ideas that will come from the playerbase about the characters we encounter.. but would you try to write Katniss Everdeen without ever actually reading about the world of the Hunger Games? You don't know what story you're editing yet, you don't have enough of a picture to understand what works and what doesn't.
The author does know Anthem, they know the characters fully in their heads and how they interact with the world around them. Artists are looking for ways to express what they see to the observing audience.. Let's see if the author is any good at doing that before we try to take the character in "another direction"
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Keep in mind, Jay, that we are not an Oversight Committee.
We are not dictating policy on the game, we are expressing criticism and concern, and musing on alternatives.
As a professional writer, myself, I have the experience to acknowledge that when "my baby" isn't translating onto the page, I won't always see it. I won't Know. That's why we have readers, people we trust to look over our works, IN PROCESS, to make certain that what we are trying to convey, is expressed.
This is much the same.
Some of the community have "read over" this particular work, and found problems we believe the author SHOULD address (not "has to"), particularly if the author was unaware that his/her creation was not communicating as well as s/he would have liked.
We are then offering up comments/concerns/questions/amendments/alterations to help said author produce what they HOPED to produce.
you see.... your suggestion is to have the creator finish his work completely, to the best of his abilities..... and only THEN say "yeah, this sucks, you should change everything about this".... on the grounds that the writer MIGHT have gotten it perfectly on the first try (like no one else has done in the history of the human race)
It is a flawed logic, and ultimately more harmful.... Once a work is completed, it becomes an issue of "take or leave it".... it becomes very VERY difficult to change aspects (imagine the rewriting required to change katniss from a spinless damsel into a strong-willed heroine AFTER you'd completed the trilogy... it would be functionally impossible)
and, in that respect... as a creator you become EXPONENTIALLY more defensive about a work that is "complete" in your eyes... and are far less willing to accept any critical appraisal. resistant to any change.... you would rather throw away all that hard work, bitter and spiteful, then undermine your "vision"
So, it is now... when the character is still new (and believe me, in the scheme of things, this character IS new) that any sort of adjustment in focus MUST be made.... if any are to be made at all....
...and since we writers often cant see the flaws in our own work, we REQUIRE outside eyes to point out those flaws (as they perceive them) so we can determine which we intended (and will keep) and which do not work with our vision (and must be edited/altered/scrapped)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I didn't say finished. I say that the vision is simply not there for the observer. Painters don't need a critique on the first stroke they put on canvas. When we see who Anthem is and how she relates to the world then criticism is welcome.
There's still alpha, beta, and many other places to give our feedback on the stories presented. But there simply is not enough information to make any of the edits being talked about in these threads. Saying what does and doesn't work, Flagship, supporting character, or otherwise is simply premature.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
well, I would argue that painters are heavy into the "take it or leave it" camp... and are often white-washing or trashing pieces that don't "work."
and perhaps if this was someone's personal character, that might happen....
but this is a project that will require resources... and will be utterly disinclined to "throw away" resources, just because the "beta" version sucks.... even more than the creator, MWM would be likely to say "sorry, community... we built it, it stays" (though they'll use different phrasing, of course... like "resources needed elsewhere")
The reality is, once this character is Modeled in game (your Alpha and Beta stages) she is very nearly set in stone. Minor tweaks might be possible (States evolved over the years) but any significant change will be undesirable, however much it may be thought of as "needed"
Your argument is "wait and see"
I get that.
The problem is... that argument is actually "opinions of the playerbase don't matter," because by the time we do "wait and see" the momentum of creation and implementation will be far too great for any concerns to be addressed.
Now, while my stance may seem a bit pre-mature, for you... the reality is, throwing out ideas while the whole thing is still just an idea... is the only time we will ever get ideas considered.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Pas du tout. The argument is that the opinions are only as relevant as the context they are put in. And right now we just don't have enough context to form such strong, relevant opinions.
We don't know if Anthem is ACTUALLY aggressive because she carries a sword. This is an assumption. IF she is aggressive then we don't know why? And even if we know why she is in fact aggressive we have no idea what she actually DOES with that aggression and how it translates to the world around her.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
but we CAN know:
that we wouldn't LIKE her wielding a sword, because it is inherently an aggressive action*
or
that we wouldn't WANT Anthem to be aggressive**
and expressing such, before she is set in stone is much more efficient to the process, then after she's already been written.
(*,** used as examples, only, not intended to express the current views of the community as a whole)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Our stance is hardly premature, Ghosty: not when you consider that the devs have had Anthem in their collective noggin for more than a year and have not, as far as I know, even attempted to give the player-base options on this front. If we wait another year without saying anything, I promise that Anthem's current incarnation (with only mild tweaks here and there) is exactly what we will get. No, not premature: proactive.
Now, I was thinking some more. The reason I proposed the four flagship model was so that everyone can have their cake and eat it too. If three of the four flagships don't fit the tastes of a certain group in society, then there is one that they can count on.
Case and point, there seems to be hard division in the forumites over one key element of both Anthem and American Star (Sean Bean): that sword. The sword denotes hard violence, that it has taken lives before and will do so again. Some do not see it that way, but many do.
So, I listed Rottweiler as an alternative: dark but not lethal in the views of many... but what if he is too dark? Some people don't want an Amazon leading them, or a man named after a attack dog.
That brings me to the third flagship. I gave a few examples of what might appeal to the "boy-scout" in us all.
Spider-Man
[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/b4844999fc5e10546e21376625a3670a/tumblr_mkj7thfXuk1rsltyyo1_250.jpg[/img]
or Captian Marvel (the one DC nearly ruined :P)
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/0b23b9e442137cfe20a1bd0a7c4f5585/tumblr_ms4ejiIw1a1sff8m0o1_500.jpg[/img]
A character that isn't all scowls, but is instead young and mostly cheerful. But maybe you think the "generic white character" is boring: well, what do you know? You have Anthem!
And as I said the 4th could be American "Sean Bean" Star, who simply acts as a fallen patron over all three. But considering that 5 may work better in this case, maybe another female who is equally bright and cheery? Maybe an interesting woman, instead of a fierce one? I haven't got all the answers, but I believe this may be a start.
In other words:
[img=450x350]http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9c5y1ejCz1rnpaqeo1_500.jpg[/img]
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I think my list fit that bill, for the most part...
I made Anthem into more of a "Friendly Neighborhood Amazing Anthem"
Rottweiler into a vigilante (not really "made"... that's been his deal since the beginning :p)
Then added Rook as a sort of Adult Captain Marvel
and Charm.... who I actually kind of based (in my head) on Selena Kyle (pre-boo52) or some of the more heroic takes on Emma Frost or Mystique..... that sort of mysterious/seductive type character who plays up her seeming untrustworthiness (Cap'n Sparrow-style) but really has her heart in the right place...
American Star stands as a tough, slightly roguish character who leads by example and with honor, even if it might rub authority figures the wrong way at times. (who is likely dead, by the time of the launch, given the original story.)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Well, the idea is that Anthem won't need any changes, because everyone will be getting a piece of the pie through these 5 flagships (changed from 4). Until we get some feedback on the idea, I would avoid making any characters. You know, just to avoid petty bickering. The idea is to have 4 of these flagships follow the path of the 5th: Sean Bean - er, American Star. So, we wouldhave 4 roles to assign Anthem, Rottweiler, and the two others. What would those roles be?
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
personalities (based on current comic character personalities, not other attributes)
I think a "team" or "floating flagship" set up would need these five personalities:
"Does the right thing" (Hawkeye, Harry Dresden, Malcom Reynolds... the sort of guy who would fight to the death to do what's right, even when it gets him a beating, or is publicly unpopular. often charming, very stubborn, true to a code of honor that is clear, if not always in keeping with the norm)
To me, this is American Star (its unique for a flagship hero in comics (i.e. it's different from the boyscout Superman, and the True-hearted soldier Cap A))
Cheerful Idealist (Spiderman, Flash, Green Arrow (sometimes), Nova (sam alexander) Captain Marvel (SHAZAM).... the sort of character who takes their moral ideal as the driving force of all their actions.. and still manages to smile most of the time.)
To me, this is what Anthem should be (again, a unique identity for a Flagship character and also someone FUN to be involved with... no stick in the muds, or boring types)
Boyscout (Superman, Cap (in the 90's, and any of the contemporary cartoons), Aqua-lad (season 1 of YJ)..... self explanatory?)
I have this as one of the new characters (could be male or female... I had him as male in the above, but it could easily be female... I do like the dynamic of a married semi-retired couple within the group)
Dark Hero/Vigilante (Batman, Moonknight, daredevil (sort of)..... again, self explanatory..... someone who's only real rule is "no killing" (and I maintain that the "no killing" rule be true of anyone we'd consider a Flagship)... )
Rottweiler works fine here... one thing I do hope, is that they (keep) the vigilante mentality separate from the "billionaire" (Stark/Wayne/Queen) motif.... so in that respect, I hope that Rottie has a little of Rorschach/Question's "maybe living on the street" quality.
Playboy/seductress ((Catwoman, Tony Stark)...someone who's intentions are often doubted, who often comes across as "smarmy" or even self-destructive, but in the end can be relied on to have their heart in the right place)
This was my second new character... I added an additional quality as a "reformed villain" to establish that potential in character arcs.... and I like the idea of the boyscout overcoming the seductress' criminality. (the reverse could also work with a boyscout-personality female hero turning a "bad boy" to the good guy side... but something about good girls falling for bad boys seems.....more tropic than a seductress sucumbing to the uprightness of the boyscout. Though honestly both are pretty common themes seen in writing. (which is good, in one sense, as it speaks to an underlying human truth or desire..... but bad in the sense that it might be too predictable.)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I use a lot of gender-based terms in the above post... but technically any role could be filled by any gender... but we've already got an American Star, Anthem, and Rottweiler... so I used their genders in my descriptions.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Yeah, because Beta testing always seemed to bring a lot of changes to stories in CoH :p
The costume we've seen seems to be pretty unpopular.
And those of discussing the character seem to have thought she needed some changes. Don't you want CoT NPCs to be more fleshed out and have more personalities (even if they're archetypical)?
It was one of the big complaints on the forums for CoH, even if the general populace really cared less about personalities and more about "Oh! We think this character is cool as a whole" Just look back at Back Alley Brawler, not fleshed out or defined any more than any other NPC and players seemed to revere him.
Changes from what though. Of course I want characters to be fleshed out with a lot of personality.. but what makes you think the current Anthem (or any of the other characters) don't have that already? Just because you don't see it? We are not asking each other "who is Anthem" to get to know her.. we are trying to dictate who she should be.. before even getting to know her.
If you change Anthem then you're also changing all of the stories of the people associated with Anthem.. lets say she was this "Angry Blank Woman" (which I feel she is not but its one hypothetical); she has characters who interact with her for who she is.. maybe a good friend who keeps her in check and helps her balance; Maybe she studies at temples for self control
Well now that Anthem is no longer "aggressive" what sense does it make to juxtapose that second character against that. Then you have to change the story for the good friend too in order for things to work.
My issues with the editorials on the characters so far are as follows:
1) We are not the original author. This is a creation someone made that is open to critique before it's even seen. This critique cannot be on the creation itself as we simply haven't enough of it. Thus we're really just critiquing the author at this point.
2) We don't know the character the way the author does. I'm sure the author has inner motivations and expression for these character innately has as a piece of creation. Trying to fit them into our artistic vision is a reflection on our preferences and not on the creations themselves. Either you trust the storytellers or you don't.
3) Maybe Anthem is a bubbly cheerleader type who is inexperienced but has the faith of others (Buffy), maybe she's a military general who is the biological daughter of Mars (Xena), .. we simply don't have enough backstory of who she is "supposed to be" from the authors' perspective to tell the author(s) how to better translate what that vision . All of these assumptions on the character are just assumptions, yet people deciding that we need to preemptively act on those assumptions.
4) Changing even one character, or setting in any story can drastically change the way it's perceived by the observer.. we don't know what parts of the story are integral to the plot and what is more flexible to that perception.
5) Storytelling by committee is hard, and it only gets harder when you don't give some sovereignty to the author for their contribution. Anyone who's been in a Tabletop campaign can tell you how frustrating it is/would be when something you have authored (specifically something as integral as a character you created) is drastically changed by outside forces from what it was originally meant to be.
6) No single character's story can easily change in a world where they are woven into a greater lore. I remember when Champions Online did something as simple as re-modeling Kevin Poe and all the sudden the whole Poe/PSI/Purple Gang storyline didn't really "fit" the same anymore.. and in that game that was like levels 8 through 22 of 40. Kevin Poe needs to be Kevin Poe so Medusa's story motivations makes sense. If we had said "ooh a mentalist.. but she looks mean and heartless lets make her nice" then Medusa's relation to Kevin Poe no longer makes sense.
7) Art is both original and re-used at the same time. Nothing is new but it always appears that way. Even if Anthem tried to break every "archetype" flagship hero there is she's still going to be compared to other known heroes. We (observers) FIND ways to relate to art. Sure sometimes things in art just don't "speak to you" but that's often when you don't have a common frame of reference. In the case of this game we already have a pretty strong frame of reference (Spiritual Successor and all.. not to mention its comic book lore which people here are more than familiar with).
Crowd Control Enthusiast
True. I even use known comic book characters to describe my own characters powers/power usage, to give a bit better picture to others.
So far my biggest complaints about her is her outfit. Though to be fair, I have complaints about all the characters costumes so far (Rotti for instance, imo, should be more black, as Rotti's are mostly black)...but I can say when I look at that team they have planned...if I saw it on the cover of a comic, I wouldn't pick it up. If I saw it on a game box, I wouldn't pick it up.
This isn't about me thinking some are to basic and some are to cluttered, as sometimes the best costumes I've seen have been basic, and when done right, even the cluttered ones can come out looking good!
And I say this as someone who impulse buys comics/cds etc just from cover art :p "OH! PRETTY! I'll buy it and see if I like it!" >_> And yes, I've regretted some of those purchases.
you presuppose that such content even exists. Our current stance in this discussion is that what IS available, is what exists.
and we have been discussing the merits of that (and our personal likes/dislikes in that respect)
Again, that presupposes both that such a "friend" character exists, that such a character MATTERS to the game at all, and that it is "too late" to change such a thing, all ready.....
...AND YET, you're stance is that we wait EVEN LONGER, until this whole world is built around A particular vision of Anthem... and only THEN, to begin our critique.
after your hypothetical situation has become exponentially more complicated and entrenched and resources spend on seeing it through to fruition....
Can you not see how your position makes any level of critique POINTLESS?
by the time you would "allow" critical analysis, nothing will be ABLE to be changed.
patently false. I doubt many, if any of us in this thread even KNOW who the author is. What we are critiquing, so far, is what we have been GIVEN so far. we are not critiquing the author/creator of the character beyond what has been specifically presented (or implied through design choices)
for example.. if someone HATES the outfit that has been presented.... how long would you demand they wait, before expressing their dislike? until beta? when the character has a fleshed out backstory and content?
or now, when they see it, and think it's awful?
When does one speak up about a problem?
would you wait 20 years to determine the ramifications of the oil spill, before trying to fix it? or do you make every attempt to solve a problem AS SOON AS IT BECOMES A PROBLEM?
this is actually irrelevant. If a writer has to tell me what their story means, they failed already.
What is on the page is all that matters. what the creator's inner motivations are is irrelevant, if they are not expressed through it. and if what IS being expressed is problematic, do you think the author would rather know NOW, when it can be edited and made to actually reflect those inner motivations and artistic vision..... or after it's too late to change them, without destroying not only the character s/he DID create, but everything in the game that relates to that character?
would you rather fix your creation, to make it great... or put it out into the void, only to have it eviscerated by the public you hoped to commune with?
I think you still misunderstand these "assumptions."
we are not telling the author anything.
It doesn't actually matter what the Author intends Anthem to be (as far as this discussion goes)... the reason being, is that our predominant modus is to illustrate what we do and do not like about what we have seen (or what we can infer from what we have seen)
IF none of this is relevant (i.e. Anthem is already significantly different in look, history, personality, etc from what has been presented) ALL we are doing is reinforcing the mentality of what we expect out of a Flagship character.
IF, however, ANY of it is relevant (i.e. the author concedes or agrees with the perspective impressions expressed herein) then there is STILL TIME to change those elements.
we know... that's why we are adamant that such changes, if there are any, need to be done NOW, as the ramifications of trying to make any changes later on becomes almost impossible.
again, irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Arguably an irrelevant point. There is a HUGE difference between citing greviences and critiquing a work.... and an act of god (or PnP players) that screws up your hard work.
If anything.... WAITING is more likely to cause this problem... once you've spent months and years on that authorship, only to have it "ruined" by people not caring, disliking, our otherwise disregarding it.
What is happening here, honestly (to use your table top analogy) is that the GM comes to the table and says "I'm thinking of starting a questing arch and having it lead by a character something like this..."
and the players saying "we love the quest idea, but can you do something different with character? it seems off..."
we're not mid-story, screwing up some well orchestrated masterpiece with our human-ness.
we're sitting around the coffee table weeks before the gaming's even started.
....and, honestly... no great GM bats an eye when characters veer off the storyline... that's pretty much "the way" of tabletop gaming. no plan survives encounter with the players.
honestly, you keep making my point for me. The game IS NOT MADE YET.
ONCE IT IS MADE, it will be almost impossible to change anything.... BECAUSE nothing so integral to the story of the world can be changed, without screwing everything else up..
that is WHY [u][b]any[/u][/b] discussions about altering core aspects of anything we've seen so far MUST BE DISCUSSED NOW.
this is irrelevant to this discussion at hand.
more to the point, I don't think anyone discussing this topic WANTS Anthem to "break flagship convention"... what we want is a character who ADHERES a little better to the concept of a Flagship character, without losing the elements that the community finds "refreshing" (namely her gender, race, and name)
I haven't heard a single person complain that Anthem "seems too much like Superman/Captain America/Hawkgirl/Green Lantern/Wolverine/et al"
The biggest complaints (mostly about her aesthetic) have been that she DOESN'T look enough like a Flagship hero.. she doesn't have the classic look/feel of the great Icons of comic book lore.
....and that bothers some of us enough to complain... YES, even now, even when we know so little...
Not because we're firing off half-cocked...
but because we want to ensure that our voices are heard, before it is too late.
If the dev team don't listen, that's their perogative... but for me... I will not be sitting there at launch thinking "I really wish I'd said something in 2014"
I'm gonna say it.
and I'm going to say it as SOON as it's a problem, to me... You don't have to agree, that's fine -different strokes, and all that- but do NOT presume to tell me that I should keep silent, that I should sit on my hands and wait for the hurricane, doing NOTHING... and then, only after all these men and women who are doing this as volunteers work their asses off for years, and never have reason to doubt what they were creating.....THEN come out and bitch about how I don't like this or that, now that it's done.
I will not be that kind of Jerk.
I will express my concerns, for the betterment of the whole, and leave it to those whose job it is to make decisions about this game decide.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
hah, I feel your pain, Brand *Curses Captain Marvel (Marvel)'s awesome covers lately, and terribly ugly internal art*
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Your argument that my points are irrelevant is completely based around the presumption that Anthem is not defined yet. The devs have been working on concept for this game for over a year now. I am making the argument that she IS already defined (if no where else but in the mind of the author). We've seen a paint stroke of who these characters are.. many of whom we haven't even named.. and you're making the argument that more a thinner, orange stroke would have been better for the painting.
You're complaining about Anthem's costume, a complaint I can share to a point, but the fact remains that WE have not seen the costume in totality. Much more to the point we do not know the purpose of the design elements of the character. We have simply made assumptions based on our ideas of symbology. I've seen a different Anthem costume almost every release.. this isn't to say that her costume is or isn't already set but the concept IS there. The goal is to TRANSLATE the concept, but the concept already exists, whether you or I know what it is yet or not.
"The way she looks" is being defined by one artist's rendition of the character and we don't have any indication on what, of the authors vision, is being translated. So it's is premature to talk about "how" it translates until we define what "it" is. And "it" is only as important as the context of which "it" is told, which we also do not know, but the authors (the people who've been writing this story long enough to argue over it and divide into different factions and decide on a vision that we now call City of Titans).
The assumption that they have not made these plans and distinctions is ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. This is not the time to go back to the drawing board. They are beyond the majority of the planning stage and now focused on execution. Until we SEE how they execute their vision, and yes it is THEIR vision we have to believe in, then i refuse to critique their execution.
The devs have their stories to tell and they're creating a space where we can tell our own. It's not my desire to restrict their creativity to my standards any more than it is my hope that they desire to restrict OUR creativity to theirs. Let them tell their story. If we can do better they're trying to give us the medium we'll need to do so and it's welcomed. If anyone really wants to get into the dev created story content I hear they're taking volunteers.
I would love a look inside the curtain to find out more about these characters. I'm sure the veil will drop over the next two years and I will have my own critiques of what I see. I will not spend time critiquing the planning however, they sold their vision and I bough it. If their planning is sub par then that will become apparent, but they wouldn't be asking for all the tools for execution if they were still at the stage of planning of which your claims of "irrelevance" call for.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I don't mean to sound elitist but I don't NEED to know a character's entire background to know whether I like them or not. I'm a writer...words have special meaning and weight to me.
Without knowing anything about the character I didn't like the costume. It's too busy...like it's trying to do too much. It's ancient, yet patriotic, yet military, yet flashy. Too many themes going on at one time.
Then I read the name and the background. Yeah...not working for me. We're writing about make-believe characters in a comic-book world for a game and it STILL doesn't fly for me.
I'm big on list-making and completing things. That way they're done and focus can shift to something else that ISN'T done. The reason we need to speak out now is so we can get this sort of thing done and in the can early and not have to scramble after it later. Rushed work is sloppy work and it shows in the final product. This is a character on paper, not a movie script. If it needs to be changed best to do it now before we're committed.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Before the Kickstarter, I was active as a part of the Composition team, and I can assure you that, indeed, lore is far from non-existent. Given that the integration of the lore so far started long before the Kickstarter, it is quite safe to assume that the actual lore is quite mature by now, and that you are only seeing the more superficial information.
I also note that in particular the "art" thread seems to (at least now) cónsist almost entirely of a handful of posters talking between themselves how they dislike Anthem. Of course, I cannot say if you are a vocal minority or the speakers of the majority, but you fail to convince me that the complaints about Anthem are [i]significant [/i] enough to make "redesigning Anthem" a top priority.
[url=http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/] Save the endangered Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus from Extinction![/url]
We have seen rough drafts and concept art of these characters. Anthem has been thrust into the spotlight more than any other over this last year. With each stroke of the brush, the artists and writers advocating her current incarnation have a mental picture of her entrenched deeper and deeper in their skulls. Artist or not, writer or not: everyone knows that concept art and rough drafts are the ideal time to give feedback. If they didn't want feedback, they should have kept us in the dark (I am thankful they didn't go that rout).
Of course the concept exists, that is why we're so critical of it. Anyone with a creative eye and an I.Q that reaches into the low side of triple digits can tell where the devs are headed with this concept. And in broad terms, it hardly matters what the purpose of the design elements of a concept are, if those elements are unsavory enough. Please, bear in mind that a picture is worth a thousand words, and some of us don't like what is being conveyed.
No one is forcing you to give an opinion, just don't try to stop us from giving ours. And given that the Kickstarter ended only a few months ago I would say this is the *perfect* time to take a look at the drawing board, before they create a complete a complex program with dialog, story mission arcs, and possibly cut scenes integrated through the game. Can you imagine the work required to undo all that for the sake of a handful of characters?
That is where you are dead wrong: this is not 100% "their story", we gave them funding because they promised a spiritual successor to CoH. We have spread word about them because we want to see something with the same feel as CoH. As Ben Parker would say: with great power, comes great responsibility. And no matter how you view it, Anthem is currently being pitched as the face of CoT and therein lies a possible problem.
I keep looking at the images we have been given of Anthem, I keep reading over her backstory, and I cannot see her as a viable substitute for Statesman. The man died and the Earth was about to suffer from a horrible invasion by a host of new enemies. Everything was about to evolve and the Devs had *planned* to have Tyrant take up Statesman's mantle. Maybe Statesman was cheesy and slightly generic, but he performed his role well. And right at the end, his death coupled with the timing of the shutdown and so many other things added an extra punch to the gut that motivated the community to get this far.
I am not asking for Statesman, Superman, or Captain America, I but I do want a hero that I can look at and say in the corniest voice possible "Heck yeah, 'Merica!" And in her current incarnation, Anthem does not provide that experience (at least, not for me). All I can do is offer ideas, hoping that the people in charge will take a look every now and then.
Planning never stops, and they have only started getting the tools they need for some proper concept work. It all begins now, and I'll be danged if I am going to stand by and hope that this community project will be fine with one less pov. We need all the resources we can get.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Heyas, Xnarl. Yeah, I admit that the art thread has been a bit hijacked. I had meant it to be 99% art, not talk. That is why I created two different threads.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
To be fair... neither of these threads were intended to be "about" Anthem. they were about the core concept of a Flagship hero.
Considering that Anthem seems to "be" that character... she naturally came up, and the flaws some of us saw in her design.
So, yes, it is a small group of community members have a discussion... because they're the one who got involved. that said... MOST of the threads are similar small cliques discussing their personal thoughts or concerns. that is the nature of forums. Its rare to see a mass community conversation unless specifically brought to their attention by the development team (and even then, it's still uncommon)
forums are NOT a good place to determine the "significance" of a complaint in terms of community mass...
What it IS good for, is to see the initial concerns (it's rare the initial response to anything is positive) and where critique and contention lie.
It allows designers to re-evaluate their creations through a new perspective, fresher eyes, and consider if their work is accomplishing what they intend it to.
I have never implied that lore was "non-existent"... my position has always been that the longer one waits to address concerns, the less likely they will be able to be changed (not that they WILL be changed, or MUST be... but the POSSIBILITY diminishes exponentially with every moment passed)
As for "not being a top priority"... I consider it sort of like governance.
The president, at the end of the day, isn't as important as the structure of the government, doesn't have the power of the congress or the supreme court, doesn't matter as much as the constitution or bill of rights....
....but if the wrong person ends up in the job.... EVERYTHING else falls apart.
I am a firm believer in triage.
I know that decisions must be made about where resources go.
But, as ive stated in this thread, a Flagship defines (for the audience) the principles upon which the universe is built. Flagships, if you're going to have one at all (still not a fan of the concept, but meh) ARE important... they are the cornerstone of everything else.
in a sense, they are the foundation of the setting, as a whole....
To me, that makes them a top priority, from a "composition" point of view.
if no one buys into the dream, it doesn't matter if you had it at all :-/
Now, beyond that. It is clear that there has been a lot of talk internally about Anthem's design, with a dozen and more different ideas about her look.... As much as you say the lore is quite mature... How mature can a book be, if the writers can't decide on their main character? :-/
(you can argue "lore" and "backstory" on this point... but the reality is... 90% of her character will be worn on her sleeve, not in her biography tab. )
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
That we know of..
That we know of..
- -
Perhaps you can elaborate on why you, and others, think that Anthem is not a good Flagship based on who we know her to be and on the context of which that character is told. I've read all the lore, bios, etc and I have seen nothing but "a young black woman in patriotic clothing who takes up the mantle and armor of her fallen mentor". Somehow this is now "the wrong direction".. but wrong for who and for what reason? Is her motivation in question, we don't even know what her motivation is. Is the fact that she looks patriotic in question? We only have our on references of symbolism to know what that means. If I were in Solviet Russia seeing the Stars and Stripes would mean something very different. We don't have the CONTEXT to make the snap decision of what is executed "right" or "wrong". Is does she believe more in the structure of order or in the freedom of chaos? We don't know. Does she fight with delicate "regal" actions or is she a street brawler? We don't know.
But its my opinion that NONE of the character choices are wrong. Some may have more visceral appeal than others but I've yet to see anything that disqualifies her ability to be a great.. no THE great Flagship.
I am actually asking.. What, that we ACTUALLY KNOW, of Anthem (or any other character) that has been defined and released in an official capacity do you not like?
For me I don't love the art style of the releases we've seen as it's too cartoon-like for my taste and the concept art we've seen is rather toony too for my taste. But the actaul in-game model previews I've seen were NOTHING like a cartoon.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
So, I'm going to refer back to my earlier post about Flagships in general, and then try to explain how I see Anthem not living up to all of them.
1. Embody a social or moral ideal of the world they exist in.
2. Have a simple core design/aesthetic.
3. Have humanizing elements (at least one, generally more for heroes than villains)
4. Social excellence (through Charisma or Leadership or Competence or Friendship, etc)
5. Visible Power (this is probably the most broad, but Visually the character must seem capable of tasks beyond the normal person... this can be something as simple as having an imposing physique.... or as subtle as tearing away a business suit to expose the superhero tights underneath)
1. This, to me, is lacking due to the sword and armor component. This is, i agree, a personal opinion and not necessarily everyone's opinion... but A sword is a violent and aggressive sort of "justice," it's goal is to subdue through mortal violence, through conquest and domination. it defines the moral underpinnings of Titan's setting as "might makes right" which, to me, is both medeval and (arguably) more villanous.
When compaired to someone like Superman, who has often been depicted as one of the ultimate powers on earth (where "might makes right" could legitimately been argued) he is shown as being "reactive"... using his prowess to defend and protect AGAINST attacks, rather than attacking himself (until there is no alternative)
A sword lacks the level of restraint as a symbol and as a tool.
I wouldn't want a comic universe where Harbinger of Justice or the Punisher was "the Flagship character," for the same reason.
2. This opinion is based on the skirt version and the black and white team shot, but I believe it occurs in most of the versions of Anthem I've seen.
Her look is far too cluttered. it is not simple, it is not thematically uniform. It looks cacophonous. A jumble of color and style and theme mashed together to create a mess. I do feel that some of these recent thumbnails are "better", but they still come across as too busy, or too thematically disjointed.
3. This is one of the few I think she accomplishes, in what we've seen so far. Taking up the mantle of her predecessor and her hero name give a sense of selflessness and integrity (although other elements clash with this assessment, re: #2 in particular)
4. This one is nebulous... however, being a protege undermines this quality (proteges lack personal identity, as opposed to sidekicks which can differ wildly from their mentors). I am confident (with the information we have) in calling Anthem a Protege, rather than a Sidekick, because she adopts special armor and weapons from her mentor to BECOME a hero, similar to him. (adopting the personae of the mentor, as opposed to simply working with/for him)
Beyond that, she just comes across as aggressive. Aggressive characters are traditionally loners/outsiders (wolverine/punisher/etc.) and put a lot of personal stock in the "badassness of lonerhood" being edgy and tough and not the best team player. Postulated outward, it either clashes with her "written personality" (I'm really a nice person and friends with everyone, now lets cut these punks to ribbons and mail the pieces to their mommas!!) Or defines someone who lacks the qualities I'd expect to see out of a Flagship (i.e. the reason why, no matter how well known Batman is, he'll never be "the Flagship" of the DC universe.)
5. I'm sort of hit or miss on this one. She DOES have this... but it is encompassed by elements I feel limit her potential in other features (the sword diminishes #1, the armor/outfit diminishes #1 and #2)
Also... the fact that its... external. Wearing your strength on your sleeve, again, comes across (to me) as an insecure, even villainous sort of behavior... the implication is that the character lacks internal, personal/character strength, and so must express it externally (lacking 'presence')
So..... you can see where I see a problem... of the 5 elements I believe to be necessary components of a Flagship character... Anthem only really maintains two of them.
And even the ones she does seem to possess are either undermined by her failings elsewhere, or in themselves undermine some other aspect of her character.
In terms of Triage, I think that her look is the biggest "hang up"... if she had a cleaner design, less bombastic and "telling" (as opposed to "showing" or "being") it would go a LONG way towards making other elements less noticeable or evidently damaging to her "flagship score" (again, against my rubric)
from there, as long as we have a clear sense of her being unique from American Star, so that she stands as a flagship in her own right (rather than the "substitute teacher" of American Star)...
...the other elements like the inherent symbolism of violence can be explained away.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
fyi, those "#" are pound signs denoting "number" not hashtags :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
1) We don't know what the sword represents in context. Is it something she uses as a symbol of violent or aggressive justice? We don't know. That's your interpretation but there is likely a reason the author chose this to be an aspect of that character and it may or may not align.
2) We have not seen any definitive model of what will be incorporated in her visual design.
3) I don't know what's relatable about her yet. Her actual persona is still an enigma.
4) I would really like you to articulate what to you makes her aggressive. It's a claim I hear repeated but do not have any supporting arguments to support the claim. I am growing some cynical opinions of why someone would find a melee black woman as "aggressive" that I really hope your argument can alleviate.
5) My favorite flagship was a guy in a wheelchair in my childhood so i reject the premise that someone needs visible power to be the figurehead on which a story is told. But even still Anthem looks plenty powerful to me.
Beyond the fact that our criteria is different on "what makes a flagship", we don't know how much of this applies to ANY of the characters as we do not know the characters yet.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm REALLY not sure what you're trying to accomplish, here, Jay. I explained my opinion, and even stated specifically that it came from the information we've been presented.
If your trying to Refute MY OPINIONS, you're wasting your time. if you're going to debate my LOGIC, then debate it.
But don't try to tell me my opinions aren't worth having without some sort of proof.
1. Swords have an EXTENSIVE HISTORY OF SYMBOLISM. whether the creators accepted and incorporated a sword and armor into the AS/Anthem aesthetic on purpose, knowing that symbolism... or whether they did it in ignorance of that... is NOT RELEVANT.
The fact remains that Swords have an inherent meaning and purpose. Like pistols, they are tools designed specifically to KILL OTHER HUMANS. they are not hunting implements, they are not tools of creation... they are meant to wound, maim, and kill other humans. Their ultimate goal and purpose is to put down a threat, permanently. no jail, no rehabilitation, no mercy. They are symbols of War, of the ultimate authority of Might.
It doesnt MATTER what the sword represents "in context", because it will ALWAYS mean these things.
2. Again, I explicitly stated my concerns were based on what we HAVE seen. I cannot judge potentia. from what I HAVE seen, I have concerns, and I have stated those concerns. I will NOT ignore the fact that everything I have seen shows problems in this category, simply because none of them are "finalized".... because I am not critiquing Anthem's FINAL design. I am Critiquing her CURRENT design POSSIBILITIES.
as I said I was.
If the final design doesn't fall into the traps the currently visible options have... then the argument is moot, and I couldn't be happier.
3. Does it matter if you don't know what's relatable about her yet? I mean, philosophically, I would say that if you can't relate to her, just by looking at her, something probably needs to change.... but if your point in this response has been to critique and argue MY post, with MY criteria.... then All that really matters is whether or not you can understand where I've established my point of logic, and whether you agree with the logic or not (regardless of whether or not you relate in kind.)
4. Aggressive as opposed to Passive (openness/protectiveness). Aggression, in this sense relates to the posing, expressions, and equipment of the vast majority of the images we've seen (the a/b thumbnails do not follow this, and are much more neutral/whimsical). She is drawn as a fighter, and as a warrior... an Amazon. This is the persona of an Aggressive character. They are not here to talk villains down, they are not here to end matters peacefully. they are not diplomats, they are soldiers.... and when they show up, war is coming with them.
This is seen in her posing, and in her choice of weapons (yes, again with the sword.... it's why I'm so against it in the first place.)
This has nothing to do with gender, race, height, civilian job, or bladder control...
it has everything to do with how she's presented (scowling, sword in hand, guarded, attacking) her aesthetic, posture and demeanor have been war-like. That is what i mean by aggressive.
5. who are you referring to? because POWER has nothing to do with PHYSICAL PROWESS. Sure, you can use physical prowess to express power (and, indeed, I said as much, so i don't know why you're trying to argue the point)... but "power" as a concept has more to do with the concept of "exceptionalism"... the character must seem more capable than a normal person (As an example, a person dressed like a soldier doesnt work as a Flagship... until they're dressed like a Super soldier...)
In my inital list, I commented that power is the most nebulous category, and the broadest. I also said that Anthem does have a sense of power... however, that power is Tied to her sword and gauntlet, which are EXTERNAL sources of power (like our normal soldier putting on body armor..... better than normal, but still not "Super") and don't really reflect any sort of internal or personal strength of character (anyone can put on plate mail and swing a sword.)
you keep harping on the notion that we do not know the characters yet.
try to see it from my perspective, for a second.
would you rather, wait until dinner is done, and then say "sorry, I'm not eating this."
or, while the chef is getting started say "I'm not a huge fan of brussle sprouts..."
Sure, the meal might NEVER HAVE INCLUDED brussle sprouts.... but that's not what matters. What matters is that the chef knows your concerns, and can then decided if your concerns are valid (oh, I was going to make brussle sprouts), relevant (I was going to make brussle sprouts in a way you're not expecting, so you might like them.. give em a try) or necessary (wow, I didn't realize people didn't like brussle sprouts... I might want to consider changing my recipe)
I think that the mentality of waiting until something is complete, and THEN tearing it apart because it didn't turn out the way you want it to be MONUMENTALLY DICKISH. It's rude and obnoxious... and worst of all.. POINTLESS. by the time dinner's cooked, they're not going to go back and cook up something new just for you, cause you don't like what they made.
However, at this stage, there is significant time to discuss and debate... and YES, the developers may already have something set in stone that we don't know about... but WE DONT KNOW ABOUT IT.
so it doesn't exist.
and as long as it doesn't exist, there is time to express ourselves, our concerns, and our expectations, so that the development team can at LEAST see that they exist.... and hopefully take them into consideration.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Her costume sucks and looks like a cluttered mess. You know, that costume you saw at a Costume Contest that looked like they picked every hard to obtain costume piece, or every "OH! BRAND NEW COSTUME PIECE!" and then threw it on their costume. Where they hit the random button and then picked some colors.
Then there's the awful armor and sword.
You know what was ugly in CoH? Statesman's mask! UGLY! Many often that it was ugly! Many thought it was out of place! Let's not do that to Anthem
1) What if her sword is magical and is used to heal her allies with magical powers? What if they take your assumptions on your symbolism and turn it on its head and juxtapose it against her actual nature (that I repeat, we have not seen yet).
2) To her costume it simply has not been consistent enough to say WHAT it will be. I will say that I didn't fully appreciate the art style of the drawings but they're just drawings.
3) Most humans have empathy. Even if she were a woman who wanted nothing more than to feel blood between her fingers, a good writer can make that relatable. This is why i say the context is neccesary.
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Specifically to #4 I see Captain America "scowl" and grit his teeth in combat all the time. Doesn't make him aggressive. If you're saying that Anthem should not fight then I simply disagree. If you're saying Anthem should fight with technical grace and beauty then I simply say.. How do you know? We don't know who Anthem IS. She just does not come off as aggressive to me just because she's a superhero who is a hands on fighter.
Specifically to #5 Professor X was my Flagship since my introduction to comics. I barely even knew the Avengers existed because I was in love with X-lore. He was a bald man in a wheelchair. VISUALLY (which was your criteria) he did not "look" like he had visible power.. in fact he looked weak. This was purposely done to juxtapose this frail image (in the 60s mind you) against the power of his convictions (not even his actual powers). It wasn't until Claremont that he became this uber powerful thing. And yet he was such a Flagship that an entire side of the franchise bears his name. (X-Men, X-Factor, X-Calibur, X-Statix, etc). To say that Professor X would not be an effective flagship for an MMO is something I would gladly argue against.
YES. I think there are "too many cooks in the kitchen". And I hate when the mother-in-law comes meddling when I'm still gathering ingredients and doesn't even know what I'm making. Or to paraphrase "be all up in the kool-aid and don't even know the flavor". If you dont like what's been cooked for you, politely say "no thank you". It's much more "dickish" move to complain to the chef (especially before tasting the plate as presented). I have experience with French and Moroccan chefs enough to know that if you're not willing to taste what they give you you shouldn't make a reservation at the table.
I'm not saying there aren't things to critique yet. For instance the editorial question of "how does American Star's armor fit Anthem?" and these I applaud. But you're not critiquing the editorial details. You're questioning the core mechanic of storytelling before reading past chapter one. Anthem may be the "Flagship" but it may make more sense when you see WHY she is and who see's her as the flagship. Perhaps she's only the Flagship because the "main villain" has set her in his crosshairs and she is the object of his ire. Doesn't make her any less of a Flagship (central figure of which the story can revolve around), at least not to me.. but that's just it..
There is no defacto trait I can point to that MAKES a Flagship. Sometimes greatness is forged, not found.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
when should you question the believably/acceptability/marketability of a main character?
once the writer's trying to get it published? or when they show you chapter one, and it's already a problem?
1. It's still a sword. if it does something else, why have it be a sword? why force your audience to do backflips to accept your whim?
2. It's been consistent enough to be concerned about... which is all i've been saying. Again, it's pointless to wait until all your fears and doubts have been realized and set in stone, to finally speak up.
3. A good writer can indeed tell the softer side of a warrior... but THAT is what they are doing.. providing depth TO AN ARCHETYPE. The Archetype doesn't magically go away, simply because the writer adds further facets. I never commented at ALL about empathy, merely explained the context of my term "Aggressive", where it came from, and how it related to her overall appearance as a character.
4. If you do a search for Cap A.... his general demeanor is, if anything, "Resolute"... taciturn maybe... and while ANY character can "be aggressive" as the situation demands... the fact remains that ALL we have seen of Anthem, is aggression. which is all I'm really speaking to. If the way you draw your character, whenever you draw your character, is as a warrior ready to do battle... THAT is their character...
It doesn't matter what's in your head.
it doesn't matter what occurs in your imagination... not even what you claim happens "off panel"
If it's not on paper, if it's not physically there, then it doesn't exist.
once again, I've been speaking to what we've seen, not what we might possibly potentially see, eventually, maybe.
5. I figured as much. The fact is, Professor X [i]does[/i] embody most (I'd actually argue "all", nowadays) of these traits on his own, however he's probably not the "flagship" of the Mutant portion of the universe...so much as the X-men are, as a team... and as a team the do fill all of these qualities in abundance. Go check out the original post in this thread.... Flagships are figures within the whole universe... and are emblematic of the whole universe (they are, in a word, Universal).... It's not dependent on your perception... i.e. there is no "My Flagship" or "Flagship for me" (unless your discussing your own universe.)
for Marvel, it IS Captain America.
As for too many cooks in the kitchen.... no.
The fact is, none of us are in the kitchen. We aren't part of the team (at least not that team, that I know of)
Nor are we asking for a burger at an Indian restaurant.
If anything, what we're doing, is going to an Italian restaurant, and seeing tonight's special is "Ketchup on Macaroni"..... you're saying "look, it's the special, just try it, you might like it!" and I'm saying "Uh, I'm gonna talk to the chef.. cause if he's seriously going to serve me ketchup and macaroni, and call it Italian, I think i'll pass"
you might be right. Ketchup and macaroni might be good, in the end...or maybe it was inside joke or way to scare off people like me... or maybe the owner's kid put it up there not knowing any better... and in reality, it's baked penne with sausages or even bucatini in a rich butter sauce...
but I don't wan't Ketchup and macaroni.... I wan't Italian. that's what I signed on for.
And I wan't to make sure the team knows that someone think's they'e serious with this Ketchup and Macaroni thing... and hopefully, they'll take it into consideration.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
And sometimes you need to stop trying being nice, to be nice, because you love the cook, and instead should be telling the cook, "This dish is terrible and I can't take another bite." :p
I agree with the others. Remember the old 'picture is worth a thousand words' thing? We're working off of a picture and a scrap of background. We don't like what we see...period. If you have to spend a paragraph to explain something then it's probably not going to work. You won't have that long to explain it to a book reader or a gamer or a person browsing the web looking for a game to buy. You get ten seconds, if you're lucky, to make that first impression. Based on what we've seen I get 'strong black woman with a patriotic name, colorful outfit and a sword.' To me that means Captain America but more violent, more aggressive. A shield protects, a sword kills and injures people. That's its purpose.
I don't need to know every minute detail to know whether or not I like something.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
People will like what they like but what is being said is what "works" and what "does not work". The two are not the same.
One requires context, the other does not.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSBj6OXW_PKb7BIxqJowKkLgNqu7tAkVSs4c85Bkn1FS2FaZEFMQ[/img]
I'm sure that those blades are for medicinal purposes.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
A girl with a sword and an armor arm. She must be super aggressive. Except that (at the beginning stage) the character was NOT aggressive. In fact she was docile and passive. Her sword didn't do physical damage.
There is a greater context to consider. Something that in the picture above is given by the text (in what looks like Chris Claremont's "i don't use subtext so i'll tell you exactly the context of what is going on" style.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/07/15/drawing-crazy-patterns-cannonball-explaining-that-he-is-near-invulnerable-when-he-is-blastin/
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm a fair guy, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. You keep talking about context, I will give you said context and you can tell me what comes to mind. Alright, you are in a store and pick up the case for this new game. You see the face of the game (Anthem or American "Sean Bean" Star) charging forward on the case cover leading an army of heroes with his/her sword drawn. You get no other details on this character on the case. Thoughts?
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
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