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warlocc
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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

I'm not gonna lie, I kind of expected you guys to have more costume parts completed by this point since the character creator has been the chief focus all these years. There are literally no parts in the Lower Leg, Hip Rear and Hip Accessory tabs, and the other tabs only have like 4-5 items if even that. Hell, some of the pieces we saw years ago aren't even in there, like Deathsheeps back piece. I don't understand why there are so few after all these years of working on it.

Mostly because, as I understand it, it hasn't been the chief focus for all these years. The distribution and update software, including back end, the website to verify accounts and allow downloads, the other modules (combat, maps, chat) and more have all had work being done on them.
As a matter of fact, it was recently mentioned that two devs that specialized in rigging parts both left the team some time ago, which also didn't help.

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**PRO**

I know it's an alpha stage of thte Titan Creator. But, as i think you aim quality, i will not be nice :p Just to help you go towards a high quality "software" xD

PRO

  • The behaviour of the camera with right and left click is natural and it's great. Just put limits on the up and down scrolls ^^[/*]
  • The environnements are great and immersive. They give some different lights direction to be sure the character is like we want. [/*]
  • The detail of the customization are amazing (neck back depth slider and neck back width slider! it's really detailled !) [/*]
  • The "hide ear" slider is really smart. Unfortunately, it does not come with the height and flip limits :/ [/*]
  • The round shape of the sliders position is smart, the fact that the body sliders and the costume sliders are divided on each side either. (But, the costume slider side is al little messy when enter the costume customization [/*]

CON

  • Put some tooltips on the slider titles (could be useful to know what it is, like "Average" for the body which is not so easy to understand) [/*]
  • Rearrange the sliders. Ex : the Body sliders should be just under the general slider . I think people begin with the general setting/shape and then focus on each part. We all come with an idea of a thin woman, a fat little boy, a tall strong guy or Casimodo with is big back or an alien. But the body slider is at the end of the list.[/*]
  • An "internal width chest" slider is missing (the side of the breast (between the shoulders) can not be changed). or i missed it[/*]
  • Stomack slider, is not the stomach ^^ It's the belly. ! The stomach is upper :) [/*]
  • Quick zoom to aim the head, the chest, the legs or the feets. The actual icons are too "far" from the icon. I think it could be better to put a small magnifying glass next to the face icon, or body etc. Or put them over the character, not in the botton right corner. This bottom right corner is usually set to "continue" the work. (Put the gogogo button on this side)[/*]
  • There is No "lock button" to lock all the sliders at once of a part [/*]
  • There is no Eyelashes :/ it could be great to put eyelashes with a length and a thickness slider[/*]

SUGGEST

  • Can we choose the music to play during customization ? (loop or list) [/*]
  • Maybe it could be great to focus the part regarding the active icone (clicking the face icon could launch the face camera preset). Or having a little magnifying glass to activate to zoom or unzoom[/*]
  • A first step by step tutorial or some descriptive step with arrows pointing to the icons to explain the main features could help the first time the user is in the Titan Creator (ex : pointing color n°1 = 1st texture)[/*]
  • Put more environnements like street daylight, hills, cimetery, cloudy sky, etc[/*]
  • It's hard to know which color (1,2,3,4) is used for a costume part, even to know if a color is used or not in the costume part. Hide the color that are not used for the custume part. [/*]
  • Put the color before the texture. It's easier to find a texture which fits when the color is choosen.[/*]
  • There are lots of texture and it's great ! But clicking to open the list, clicking to put the texture, chosing a color, clicking again to open the list, scrolling to find the texture, etc, etc is really not easy after 3 tries :) Make 2 lists ? 1st for the nature of the texture (metal, wool, vinyl, etc) and a second for the type (galvanized, brossed, etc). And, of course, put an exemple in a small image to help people choosing the texture.[/*]
  • The color list is weird :) too much pale color, not enought standard color. Not that is not good ! I like having choice but standard color are missing ! And maybe it can have different type of sorting the colors ? by tones, gradient, darkest or lightest, etc [/*]
  • The active icon should be lighter or at least more visible when selected (or maybe another color than light blue. maybe red or something more revelant then red for colorblind people) [/*]
  • Glow effect go through not glow to really glowy to too much glowy but TOO quickly ! it could nice to have something more gradient.[/*]
  • We must save the character to put its name. why not having a form for the name with will be registred whn saving the character ? [/*]

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Tannim222
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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Devs, is this feedback helping you?

Yes, your feedback helps. Feedback and bugs are being collated into a document for review.


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so, I know breasts have been

so, I know breasts have been something of a contentious issue in the past (that weirdly kept just not dying) but I've got actual data to provide feedback about here. Specifically, the female model isn't wearing a bra.

One of the problems with the female model as it stands (as I see it, anyway) is that the breasts have no support at all. What I mean by that is fairly simple; the way the breasts are structured in the character builder is realistic for a woman who's wearing nothing on her torso. This is fine for when you have the breast slider turned down to the very lowest level (in which you have nothing to support in the first place) but it becomes more noticeable as you increase in size. To support this argument, I've taken a few screenshots for the subject:

There's isn't a huge problem in these images, but you can already start to see it if you're looking closely despite these images being only with the breasts at 50 on the slider. When supported, breasts don't hang off to the sides like that; they're contained by the bra, which pushes them in the opposite direction - towards the sternum, giving them a round sort of look. That's not what's happening here - the painted-on bra does nothing to support or contain the breasts, which looks significantly more notable once you've got the character in a shirt as I did there. This gives the character a wider top image, but just looks strange when you're comparing it to women in the real world.

Then we get into the larger sizes and it looks even weirder. Again, I've taken a pair of screenshots to showcase the situation:

The top image was taken at 100 slider, while the one in the shirt was taken at 75 (since that's as high as I could get it before serious clipping issues began, and that's not what this feedback post is about). You can see here what I was referring to but on a more extreme level. The character's breasts look completely natural for a large-chested woman who isn't wearing anything to support her breasts at all, which is very strange when you're talking about a character creator in which you're going to be applying multiple layers of clothing (the spandex underlayer, whatever they wear on top of that, any armor pieces, and so on). There isn't even a nude option in the character creator, which makes sense for the intended rating of the game (T for Teen) but is a deeply weird contrast to what's going on with the breasts here. They should be being cupped by whatever underwear is supporting them, instead of sagging due to being wholly unsupported despite the visual representation of, well, support in the form of a bra and whatever else the spandex layer provides.

My suggestion is a change in the direction the growth when the breasts slider is increased. Giving the character's breasts a round shape that proceeds towards the center and forward, leaving a slight hollow between them when large enough. DesViper seemed fairly adamant on the Discord that this was impossible for some strange reason, despite the fact that I'm only talking about a change to the direction the sliders make the characters breasts develop and NOT a game-physics thing. I know it's doable since this is the way that City of Heroes did its breast slider the way I'm advocating for, and in fact it's the standard way most games handle such things, which made the unsupported breasts in the CoT avatar builder all the more jarring. If it's for some reason not doable because of issues with the character model being used, that seems very very strange.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

TitansCity
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I'm pretty sure that , even

I'm pretty sure that , even if it is possible, this is not a high priority to resolve :) I mean, you probably should wait a while before a such correction is taken in account since MWM have few ressources and lots of (critical) things to do.
Anyway, i'm sure all feedbacks help the dev :) It's just, afterall, a priority affair


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Grouchybeast
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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

I'm pretty sure that , even if it is possible, this is not a high priority to resolve :) I mean, you probably should wait a while before a such correction is taken in account since MWM have few ressources and lots of (critical) things to do.
Anyway, i'm sure all feedbacks help the dev :) It's just, afterall, a priority affair

That is an odd response to someone to took the time to test the builder, take multiple screenshots, and write up a detailed analysis of the issue for the devs.

@Halae - I noticed the same problem with the female figure. Fingers crossed that one of the sliders that's currently showing as inactive is planned to allow adjustments to 'level of support' or something similar. But there are clearly a lot of issues with the female figure in general, so hopefully this will be part of a general overhaul.

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for? - Robert Browning

Cinnder
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Devs, is this feedback helping you?

Yes, your feedback helps. Feedback and bugs are being collated into a document for review.

I guess the big question is: how 'done' does MWM believe the AB is at the moment? Players have identified a significant number of issues - some minor, some fundamental. Are there resources planned to devote to fixing the AB, or did MWM believe it was ready except for a few tweaks?

Spurn all ye kindle.

Halae
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I guess the big question is: how 'done' does MWM believe the AB is at the moment? Players have identified a significant number of issues - some minor, some fundamental. Are there resources planned to devote to fixing the AB, or did MWM believe it was ready except for a few tweaks?

Dr. Tyche has outright stated that this is a "Test" build that we have access to. It has very very little of what the finished product is going to have.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

Empyrean
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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I guess the big question is: how 'done' does MWM believe the AB is at the moment? Players have identified a significant number of issues - some minor, some fundamental. Are there resources planned to devote to fixing the AB, or did MWM believe it was ready except for a few tweaks?

Dr. Tyche has outright stated that this is a "Test" build that we have access to. It has very very little of what the finished product is going to have.

So it's an "Alpha"? If so that's cool, because it's a good Alpha with tons of potential. It's not Beta-ready IMHO, though.

PS- To be clear, not because of lack of costume pieces, lack of helpful presets, or the ungainly UI, but because the basic underlying skeleton/rigging of the avatar seems to need work.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Halae
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

So it's an "Alpha"? If so that's cool, because it's a good Alpha with tons of potential. It's not Beta-ready IMHO, though.

PS- To be clear, not because of lack of costume pieces, lack of helpful presets, or the ungainly UI, but because the basic underlying skeleton/rigging of the avatar seems to need work.

Not even just an alpha - this is an early alpha. This was in fact "The moment we could be reasonably confident we can send the game out to backers, we did". It's a great base for the future, but it's nowhere even close to done, and the devs aren't lying and saying that it is.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

Cinnder
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

To be clear, not because of lack of costume pieces, lack of helpful presets, or the ungainly UI, but because the basic underlying skeleton/rigging of the avatar seems to need work.

Aye, that's my point as well. I'm not familiar with the code, but while adding costume parts and fixing clipping issues is relatively easy to do at the last minute, if the skeleton is a foundational issue in the code then fixing it could be more problematic.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Empyrean
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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

So it's an "Alpha"? If so that's cool, because it's a good Alpha with tons of potential. It's not Beta-ready IMHO, though.

PS- To be clear, not because of lack of costume pieces, lack of helpful presets, or the ungainly UI, but because the basic underlying skeleton/rigging of the avatar seems to need work.

Not even just an alpha - this is an early alpha. This was in fact "The moment we could be reasonably confident we can send the game out to backers, we did". It's a great base for the future, but it's nowhere even close to done, and the devs aren't lying and saying that it is.

Just to be clear, never thought, said, or intended to insinuate that anyone was lying. I happily paid my money to support them and I wouldn't take it back if I could. I was just unsure as to what the Devs thought this release represented. As an early alpha, it's very strong.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I think we have to remind

I think we have to remind ourselves that this is a backer only alpha test. Furthermore, it's a backer only Alpha test with no NDA!. That's important. Normally you'd never hear about or see a game this early unless someone was paying you to do it.

This is the sausage, not even sausage yet, this is raw meat in a tube. It's going to need some time to cure and smoke. It's going to need some packaging and then MWM still has to add a bunch of other ingredients, make a crust grow some tomatoes and make those into a sauce and put it all together and by then we'll be in open beta where the MWM chefs can test the recipe on the populace and make some last minute tweaks before opening the restaurant. You didn't realize this was a farm to table metaphor until the very end because we are so deep into the farm part of that metaphor.

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Mmm sausage

Mmm sausage

-----------

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think we have to remind ourselves that this is a backer only alpha test. Furthermore, it's a backer only Alpha test with no NDA!. That's important. Normally you'd never hear about or see a game this early unless someone was paying you to do it.

This is the sausage, not even sausage yet, this is raw meat in a tube. It's going to need some time to cure and smoke. It's going to need some packaging and then MWM still has to add a bunch of other ingredients, make a crust grow some tomatoes and make those into a sauce and put it all together and by then we'll be in open beta where the MWM chefs can test the recipe on the populace and make some last minute tweaks before opening the restaurant. You didn't realize this was a farm to table metaphor until the very end because we are so deep into the farm part of that metaphor.

+1^
Can someone pin this up until it is no longer so painfully true?

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Mmm sausage

Mmmm... raw meat in a tube...

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Grouchybeast wrote:
Grouchybeast wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

I'm pretty sure that , even if it is possible, this is not a high priority to resolve :) I mean, you probably should wait a while before a such correction is taken in account since MWM have few ressources and lots of (critical) things to do.
Anyway, i'm sure all feedbacks help the dev :) It's just, afterall, a priority affair

That is an odd response to someone to took the time to test the builder, take multiple screenshots, and write up a detailed analysis of the issue for the devs.

Oh, wait… I would not create a misunderstanding here. I'm not from MWM, it's just my opinion as a player (and as i work in IT either). I'm not saying your feedback is not usefull or whatever. Other player made, as you, good and detailled feedbacks.
I'm just saying that there are probably more critic feedbacksbefore solving this one.


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I don’t have much to add that

I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been covered in earlier posts but I did have one piece of feedback I wanted to emphasize:

- I would like to see regular clothes options (t-shirts, button downs etc) get separated from the other outer wear options. I had what i thought was a pretty simple costume in mind: button down shirt, slacks, tie, and black jacket. To my chagrin, the dress shirt shared a slot with the jacket. I feel that that should be in the same slot as tights.

Name: Safehouse
Ranger: Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Atrophic Aura
Tertiary: Kinetic Melee
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.

TitansCity
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I was wondering if it's

I was wondering if it's possible to put, for each texture applyed, a slider which could grow or shrink the texture itself, like scaling it. It appears to me that sometimes, it's to small to be really visible but if we can grow the texture, it could be more visible, especially when the color is too dark.


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I think grimfox said it best.

I think grimfox said it best.. im just going to sit back and wait till someone actually fixes the female character.

“If every vampire who said he was at the crucifixion was actually there, it would have been like Woodstock.”

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Jaw height slider should move

Jaw height slider should move the chin as well. You usually expect it to. It does it in every other game.

Upper Lips and Lower Lips size sliders aren't about the size, but the definition. Size and definition are very different and there should be 2 additional sliders for the actual size.

Presets are pretty limiting. For example, I like the look of nose number 4 from the front. But I don't like how it looks from the side.

I'd like to mention again how hard it is to create unique looking faces. Since we're all starting from the same default face, the majority of the works I see are different takes of the same face. I really am not one to struggle to create unique looking faces, but I do struggle here. I already suggested ways to fix this (facial textures, eyebrows) but I want to say this:

In games like Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age, Greedfall, The Outer Worlds and so on you are given around 10 unique faces to choose from who have their own unique features. You choose the one you like, and then you get to the nitty gritty of customizing each aspect of it. I think this approach might be best for this game. You might want to consider it considering it can be potentially a lot better than the preset sliders system we currently have in place. This will be my last post about it, but I hope to see that area improved greatly in the future.

P.S. I post this meme as a visual to what I mean. I used premade characters because I didn't want to offend anyone by using their avatar. This feedback applies on the female model as well.

Same face syndrome is a big, big problem that isn't completely fixable with our current sliders. Sliders that will help fix that:

* Functional eye height slider (that moves the eyeball with it).
* Functional eye space slider (that moves the eyeball with it).
* Jaw angle sliders.
* Improvements to the jaw width slider (currently it makes the jaw look like chipmunk)
* More unique presets

Again, this isn't to be mean or overly picky. It just bothers me to see the same face everywhere lol

Cinnder
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Bubbleso wrote:
Bubbleso wrote:

I'd like to mention again how hard it is to create unique looking faces. Since we're all starting from the same default face, the majority of the works I see are different takes of the same face. I really am not one to struggle to create unique looking faces, but I do struggle here. I already suggested ways to fix this (facial textures, eyebrows) but I want to say this:

In games like Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age, Greedfall, The Outer Worlds and so on you are given around 10 unique faces to choose from who have their own unique features. You choose the one you like, and then you get to the nitty gritty of customizing each aspect of it. I think this approach might be best for this game. You might want to consider it considering it can be potentially a lot better than the preset sliders system we currently have in place. This will be my last post about it, but I hope to see that area improved greatly in the future.

I'd say this is one of my biggest concerns with the current state of the AB. I think your suggested solution could be a big help.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Even more relevant is

Even more relevant is Champions Online. For all of the different face sliders they have, it’s really hard for two bug-eyed (human) faces to look significantly different. I always thought it ironic that CoX which had no face sliders and only presets had so much more variety. It’s a good thing that CO let’s you put a mask or helmet on your character.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

Even more relevant is Champions Online. For all of the different face sliders they have, it’s really hard for two bug-eyed (human) faces to look significantly different. I always thought it ironic that CoX which had no face sliders and only presets had so much more variety. It’s a good thing that CO let’s you put a mask or helmet on your character.

Indeed. Whenever I played CO I always covered that horrible face with stuff (I really liked the raven mask thing). I mean, if they were only going to have one face, they could have at least made sure that it was a GOOD one.

I really hope they add more face textures.

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So in an effort to help

So in an effort to help mitigate the ... hazards ... of using the default female head/face in the avatar builder, I tried to come up with a better set of slider settings to use as a "neutral/default" female head/face.
This is what I came up with ...

.

This is by no means "perfected" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm thinking that it's better that what shows up prebuilt in the avatar builder right now. I find how ... elongated ... the top of the skull is when seen in profile to be problematic, but I'm not experienced enough with the builder yet to know which sliders to muck with to do something about that.

And here's the data for copying to a Female Head Sliders.bdy file that I exported from the build planner ... if you're inclined to do that sort of thing. Just copy/paste from { to } in the data below (since I'm literally copy/pasting this out of the exported .bdy text file).

Quote:

{
	"0": 100,
	"1": 0,
	"2": 0,
	"3": 0,
	"4": 0,
	"5": 0,
	"6": 0,
	"7": 0,
	"8": 100,
	"9": 100,
	"10": 0,
	"11": 0,
	"12": 0,
	"13": 0,
	"14": 0,
	"15": 10,
	"16": 8,
	"17": 0,
	"18": 99,
	"19": 0,
	"20": 0,
	"21": 0,
	"22": -100,
	"23": 0,
	"24": 0,
	"25": -100,
	"26": 0,
	"27": 49,
	"28": 49,
	"29": 50,
	"30": 50,
	"31": 30,
	"32": 0,
	"33": 0,
	"34": 0,
	"35": 0,
	"36": 49,
	"37": 29,
	"38": 0,
	"39": 0,
	"40": 0,
	"41": 0,
	"42": 19,
	"43": 0,
	"44": 0,
	"45": 0,
	"46": 0,
	"47": -20,
	"48": 0,
	"49": 0,
	"50": 0,
	"51": 0,
	"52": 0,
	"53": 1,
	"54": 0,
	"55": 49,
	"56": 0,
	"57": 0,
	"58": 0,
	"59": 0,
	"60": 0,
	"61": 0,
	"62": 0,
	"63": 49,
	"64": 49,
	"65": 50,
	"66": 50,
	"67": 0,
	"68": 49,
	"69": 0,
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	"145": 100,
	"146": 0,
	"147": 0
}


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Right now the female is just

Right now the female is just too terrifying to work with...

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Hmmm.

Hmmm.

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Anjay, you have got face

Anjay, you have got face scaling down to a science my friend. Those are crazy impressive. Now if you can make an asian person I'll really be blown away.

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Not the best, but its a start

Not the best, but its a start

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The eyebrow options aren't

Named for her personality not her eyebrows.

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that is .. terrifying..

that is .. terrifying..

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Anjay wrote:
Anjay wrote:

Hmmm.

Doesn't mean the rest of the playersbase aren't running around with the same face lol. And it's not failure on their part...

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Bubbleso wrote:
Bubbleso wrote:
Anjay wrote:

Hmmm.

Doesn't mean the rest of the playersbase aren't running around with the same face lol. And it's not failure on their part...

It is not hard to create *very* unique faces if your intention is to create a unique face. That is evident.

Adding in options for those that don't want to play with the various sliders is a fair suggestion. Saying that even this super early alpha can't do unique faces is not.

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this needs a lot more work

this needs a lot more work

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Anjay wrote:
Anjay wrote:

Not the best, but its a start

For some reason I think “Hot Dog Eating Champion of 1993”.

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City of Mutants.. >_>

City of Mutants.. >_>

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

We really just need 3 body styles for each sex, slim, heroic, and hulk. 90% of the sliders can go. With enough stock heads and hair styles every toon will be unique.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simplicity ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ always make it simple.

I would love to see some presets for that kind of thing.

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Centcomm_Actual wrote:
Centcomm_Actual wrote:

City of Mutants.. >_>

This supposed to be an X-men reference?

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No more a reference to the

No more a reference to the terrifying appearance you can make in the character generator.

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Centcomm_Actual wrote:
Centcomm_Actual wrote:

No more a reference to the terrifying appearance you can make in the character generator.

It can go horribly wrong, and it can go amazingly right. I have seen some amazing stuff by other players already, even with the limits of this early alpha software.

And even horribly wrong can be useful:

Duérmete niña, duérmete ya...
Que viene el Coco y te comerá.

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for villains sure.. but not

for villains sure.. but not for making heroic looking people..

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Centcomm_Actual wrote:
Centcomm_Actual wrote:

for villains sure.. but not for making heroic looking people..

Not every hero is beautiful. Not by a long shot.

But regardless, an avatar builder that needs to do both hideous and sublime is a good thing, yes?

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ehh i was tired of the ugly

ehh i was tired of the ugly villain... im sorry Hero.. hero that looks like a villain.. meme in City of hero.

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We're missing a good shade of

We're missing a good shade of red.

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Centcomm_Actual wrote:
Centcomm_Actual wrote:

ehh i was tired of the ugly villain... im sorry Hero.. hero that looks like a villain.. meme in City of hero.

If you say so.

But regardless, this is an avatar builder that needs to do both hideous and sublime, for both heroes and villains. The fact it can do both is, therefore, a good thing, yes?

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well right now it can do..

well right now it can do.. one.. really well :D Im looking forward to the next Build Honestly

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Centcomm_Actual wrote:
Centcomm_Actual wrote:

well right now it can do.. one.. really well :D Im looking forward to the next Build Honestly

Ah. So you think everything everyone so far has done has been ugly and failed to look "heroic".

Huh.

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The inside of the mouth

The inside of the mouth really need teeth and a tongue and black background. The builder has a way to open the mouth. And without that it does look weird.

Having teeth also adds the possibility for vampire teeth, nosferatu teeth, pixy pointed teeth, orce teeth... aside from human.

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Elizabeth Bathory wrote:
Elizabeth Bathory wrote:

The inside of the mouth really need teeth and a tongue and black background. The builder has a way to open the mouth. And without that it does look weird.

Having teeth also adds the possibility for vampire teeth, nosferatu teeth, pixy pointed teeth, orce teeth... aside from human.

Big ol'e +1!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I guess the game also needs a

The horror show continues.

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Anjay wrote:
Anjay wrote:
Bubbleso wrote:
Anjay wrote:

Hmmm.

Doesn't mean the rest of the playersbase aren't running around with the same face lol. And it's not failure on their part...

It is not hard to create *very* unique faces if your intention is to create a unique face. That is evident.

Adding in options for those that don't want to play with the various sliders is a fair suggestion. Saying that even this super early alpha can't do unique faces is not.

I mean evidently it IS hard to create one considering I see the same ones everywhere and can talk from my own experience. I think you're confusing hard with possible. I didn't mean to say it was impossible, but just very hard. Obviously if you've spent a considerable amount of time with it you can get a decent result. I usually am not one to struggle to create OC faces, but I find it practically hard and a little frustrating here...

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Bubbleso wrote:
Bubbleso wrote:
Anjay wrote:
Bubbleso wrote:
Anjay wrote:

Hmmm.

Doesn't mean the rest of the playersbase aren't running around with the same face lol. And it's not failure on their part...

It is not hard to create *very* unique faces if your intention is to create a unique face. That is evident.

Adding in options for those that don't want to play with the various sliders is a fair suggestion. Saying that even this super early alpha can't do unique faces is not.

I mean evidently it IS hard to create one considering I see the same ones everywhere and can talk from my own experience. I think you're confusing hard with possible. I didn't mean to say it was impossible, but just very hard. Obviously if you've spent a considerable amount of time with it you can get a decent result. I usually am not one to struggle to create OC faces, but I find it practically hard and a little frustrating here...

It's fiddly, but if I have a goal in mind I can get there to a very great degree. And I'm seeing others here on forums over in Character Creator and in the Discord doing the same. I don't think their characters all look like mine or mine look like theirs. You think they do?

But there's a ways to go yet, though, before this is a finished product since what we're playing with is early alpha, and not even latest there is.

Like I say, I agree it makes sense give people more preset starting points to go from, but I would hate to lose the versatility from the suite of sliders, let me go from the Americas to Asia to Africa and Europe in one face.

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I think we have to look at

I think we have to look at the avatar builder like paint and canvas. Some people will be really good at manipulating that paint on to the canvas to get a nice painting. Others of us... struggle, it's hard, we need guidelines and patterns and a good reference to make something good. Other's can reference the image in their head and just paint it out no problem. This is art, it's subjective, and it takes practice, which some of us don't have the time for. I was fortunate to spend about 2 hours in the AB last night attempting to recreate a face from and instagram model. I think it came out well. But I still feel like I didn't get quite what I wanted. AND it took 2 hours to do just that face. Someone else might be able to come up with something better in 30 minutes. Some of us may only have 30 minutes to complete the character design, before it's time to put kids to bed or go to work or whatever. It's great to have all the features and capability but some people need some help.

Maybe instead of preset MWM needs to facilitate a way for people to share costumes and sliders easily and quickly. Someone can post a face to the forum and then a user could copy a hex code generated by the AB into their AB to create those features and use that as a jumping off point. The character spandex costume and body files are a good start but they are a little bulky and there's currently not a good way to share files on the forums. Looking over those files I think you could probably encode them into something like a 140 character string that people could copy and paste. (also tweet at each other cause that's a thing that young people do, bah humbug)

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this is more what im hopeing

this is more what im hopeing for..

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I'm thinking that actually

I'm thinking that actually getting descriptive names for sliders (other than Head 3, etc.) will go a long way towards making the builder Easy To Use ... which ought to be as important as adding new stuff to it.


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Centcomm_Actual wrote:
Centcomm_Actual wrote:

this is more what im hopeing for.. [image snipped]

Thanks Centcomm! It helps to know your vision. Being in Asia I have not used "fragile" noses much but I think the AB might get close. I'll give it a go tonight but I also encourage others. It is a stylized face that seems suited to digital creation.

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this was just the first thing

this was just the first thing i could find that i could post a image of. but ..

yes this is my art..

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Anjay wrote:
Anjay wrote:

... Like I say, I agree it makes sense give people more preset starting points to go from, but I would hate to lose the versatility from the suite of sliders, let me go from the Americas to Asia to Africa and Europe in one face.

You're absolutely right, I would want to keep the tools we have. I think everyone has an opus in them, some wholly personal ideal that will take hours to produce, even if they stay close to presets for all their other characters. It's like the novel that exists in each of us. Or the superhero :)

I do I love your character designs. They would also make great NPCs, so distinctive. "Hey, did I just meet your twin in Old Bradford?"

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I'm thinking that actually getting descriptive names for sliders (other than Head 3, etc.) will go a long way towards making the builder Easy To Use ... which ought to be as important as adding new stuff to it.

Absolutely agree.

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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:
Anjay wrote:

... Like I say, I agree it makes sense give people more preset starting points to go from, but I would hate to lose the versatility from the suite of sliders, let me go from the Americas to Asia to Africa and Europe in one face.

You're absolutely right, I would want to keep the tools we have. I think everyone has an opus in them, some wholly personal ideal that will take hours to produce, even if they stay close to presets for all their other characters. It's like the novel that exists in each of us. Or the superhero :)

I do I love your character designs. They would also make great NPCs, so distinctive. "Hey, did I just meet your twin in Old Bradford?"

Thanks, I am just glad to have a tool to start making cool things and am thrilled to see this process start to come to fruition.

And yes, having interfaces in place so everyone can make cool distinctive ideas they yearn for come to life is certainly the goal to strive for.

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Anjay wrote:
Anjay wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I'm thinking that actually getting descriptive names for sliders (other than Head 3, etc.) will go a long way towards making the builder Easy To Use ... which ought to be as important as adding new stuff to it.

Absolutely agree.

A long-known issue that is on the list to fix. As well as build in presets for body types, faces, and costumes.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I'm thinking that actually getting descriptive names for sliders (other than Head 3, etc.) will go a long way towards making the builder Easy To Use ... which ought to be as important as adding new stuff to it.

Even though Tannim already replied I wanna +1 this, and also +1 those who are saying add good base body and face presets but still keep as many sliders as feasible.

You put the above things together with fixing the wonky posture/skeletal rigging and tons of costume pieces?

I would think that would satisfy everyone's dream of a Titans CC.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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As much as I can do without a

As much as I can do without a hairbrush. The CC doesn't allow much-larger-than-human eyes (anime/Alita-style). Getting the face to be balloon-like means playing a lot with cheek, jowl, chin and jaw sliders and still isn't round so I used greenscreen, where there is less shading that would emphasize bone structure. There's no pose quite like the original image, maybe the pose upon login but I'd need to get lucky as it bounces around. It would be nice to have much more camera flexibility (point up/down/left/right a bit). The eyebrows that only ramp up have too many other issues to be worth using here, but there's still quite a bit of eyebrow control. The irises could perhaps have been a little lighter to capture some texture. It's not a skin color I'd have considered if not for the source image.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Anjay wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I'm thinking that actually getting descriptive names for sliders (other than Head 3, etc.) will go a long way towards making the builder Easy To Use ... which ought to be as important as adding new stuff to it.

Absolutely agree.

A long-known issue that is on the list to fix.

Here's the thing though ... I wouldn't have thought that updating the descriptive names for the sliders would require a massive development effort ...

Am I wrong in thinking that?


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It's probably not. But there

It's probably not. But there may be other issues. Like the patcher. It may have issues with incrementals. looking at the program files there are "chunks" in there that are 13gb. That maybe where that bit of code is hidden and it may be hard to swap that for a text correction. That may be something they are working on. Or it's not a high priority. You will probably disagree. Not a dev, don't know.

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I think either all four

Just a couple suggestions.
I think either all four material zones should have the "glow" option, or the irises should be re-mapped from zone 1 to zone 4, it would be really great for those who would like to be able to have their CaCs eyes glow. As it is now, no part of the eyes seem to be mapped to zone 4.

Also, I see this with a lot of MMOs and it's always bugged me, there is no way to give male characters a bulge. Not asking for anything obscene obviously, but men are not Ken dolls, if they're wearing a piece of skin-tight spandex, latex, Lycra, etc. on their lower body, there's going to be a lump, even when wearing an athletic supporter or dance belt. Movies like Deadpool and Superman Returns are good examples of how the male pelvic area should look when wearing such form-fitting materials.

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Isamu Kuno wrote:
Isamu Kuno wrote:

Just a couple suggestions.
I think either all four material zones should have the "glow" option, or the irises should be re-mapped from zone 1 to zone 4, it would be really great for those who would like to be able to have their CaCs eyes glow. As it is now, no part of the eyes seem to be mapped to zone 4.

Also, I see this with a lot of MMOs and it's always bugged me, there is no way to give male characters a bulge. Not asking for anything obscene obviously, but men are not Ken dolls, if they're wearing a piece of skin-tight spandex, latex, Lycra, etc. on their lower body, there's going to be a lump, even when wearing an athletic supporter or dance belt. Movies like Deadpool and Superman Returns are good examples of how the male pelvic area should look when wearing such form-fitting materials.

While I agree with this, especially the second part, I believe ESRB rules prevent any kind of bulge, slider or not. That is to say, any game that shows male bulges automatically gets slapped with an M rating, and I think the devs are trying to keep it at T for Teen.

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yep so you get to be a ken

yep so you get to be a ken doll.. :D and the lady get to be a .. barbie eventually. just not right now.,.. such shoulders!

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Captain Citadel wrote:
Captain Citadel wrote:
Isamu Kuno wrote:

Just a couple suggestions.
I think either all four material zones should have the "glow" option, or the irises should be re-mapped from zone 1 to zone 4, it would be really great for those who would like to be able to have their CaCs eyes glow. As it is now, no part of the eyes seem to be mapped to zone 4.

Also, I see this with a lot of MMOs and it's always bugged me, there is no way to give male characters a bulge. Not asking for anything obscene obviously, but men are not Ken dolls, if they're wearing a piece of skin-tight spandex, latex, Lycra, etc. on their lower body, there's going to be a lump, even when wearing an athletic supporter or dance belt. Movies like Deadpool and Superman Returns are good examples of how the male pelvic area should look when wearing such form-fitting materials.

While I agree with this, especially the second part, I believe ESRB rules prevent any kind of bulge, slider or not. That is to say, any game that shows male bulges automatically gets slapped with an M rating, and I think the devs are trying to keep it at T for Teen.

Great, so Superman Returns gets to be PG-13, but we can't get a little bit of anatomical realism in a video game becaues of craven beurocratic overreach. It's not like we're going full Conan Exiles here, geez.

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Isamu Kuno wrote:
Isamu Kuno wrote:

Great, so Superman Returns gets to be PG-13, but we can't get a little bit of anatomical realism in a video game becaues of craven beurocratic overreach. It's not like we're going full Conan Exiles here, geez.

I wouldnt argue too much. they have good body models.. jiggle.. jiggle.

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It's not MWM I'm complaining

It's not MWM I'm complaining about, it's the fellahs at the freakin' FCC.

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We’ve had the bulge slider
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here's the most infamous

here's the most infamous thread regarding.................accurate physiology. https://cityoftitans.com/forum/jiggle-physics-good-bad-and-ugly?page=6#comment-124905

City of Titans is rated T for Teen, and that answers all questions relating to .......accurate physiology.


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Atama wrote:
DesViper wrote:

here's the most infamous thread regarding.................accurate physiology. https://cityoftitans.com/forum/jiggle-physics-good-bad-and-ugly?page=6#comment-124905

City of Titans is rated T for Teen, and that answers all questions relating to .......accurate physiology.

Again, I point to Superman Returns. PG-13 and he's neither flat nor obscene.

Atama wrote:

We’ve had the bulge slider debate before.

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/fully-modeled-bulge-physics-jiggling

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/discuss-dw-animations-between-male-and-female

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/weeks-episode-pom-poms

Bulge sliders are unlikely to occur.

Well, at least the idea has enough support to make waves. I guess it's enough that there seem to be a decent amount of people (more than expected) in favor.

Still say we need more glowing material zones or to remap the iris.

As for sliders. I don't know if they have more planned or not. We have a good amount so there not much that can be added, but a fingernail length slider would be cool too, for beastly or fashionista characters. I notice the female waist slider makes it smaller while the male makes it larger. I think that could be tweaked to be able to go in both directions for both models.

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Isamu Kuno wrote:
Isamu Kuno wrote:

Well, at least the idea has enough support to make waves. I guess it's enough that there seem to be a decent amount of people (more than expected) in favor.

Not a decent amount of people, a few extremely persistent people. And while I agree with a lot of the other things you're saying, for the love of Mike please, we don't need another boobs and wangs thread.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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OK, but the model isn't "flat

OK, but the model isn't "flat". May not be big enough for some, but it isn't a smooth surface. I noticed that because it isn't flat in the female model either, and it's especially evident when going for really thin body type.

Overall, the surface matches fairly well the typical superhero drawing in mainstream anyway , and doesn't bring any trouble from ESRB, so good enough.

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It is flat, about as flat as,

It is flat, about as flat as, yes, a Ken doll, That's not a lump its just an inward curve toward the thighs, which is just an extension of the torso curve And the male model certainly shouldn't have the same pelvic curvature as the female. And I really don't get the ratings argument when just yesterday I created a character who looks like he stepped right out of a BDSM club. I could even make the crotch area glow if I wanted to.

And it matching with mainstream comic is exactly the problem. We live in an age where movies have become the way most people get their superhero stories, moving away from stylization and toward realism, and realistically, a man is not going to be that flat when wearing spandex, or even skinny jeans. I don't need a basketball in there, or even a softball. Something about the size of a golf ball would work.

Empyrean wrote:
Isamu Kuno wrote:

Well, at least the idea has enough support to make waves. I guess it's enough that there seem to be a decent amount of people (more than expected) in favor.

Not a decent amount of people, a few extremely persistent people. And while I agree with a lot of the other things you're saying, for the love of Mike please, we don't need another boobs and wangs thread.

Then why are you keeping the conversation going when I already tried to move on? I mentioned fingernail sliders, I mentioned revamping the waist slider, I've mentioned glowing eyes, there were several directions you could have taken to steer the conversation away from this topic. You could have also posted your own unrelated suggestion.

Also, I am disappointed in this community for not acknowledging the Family Guy reference.

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I implore those proposing

I implore those proposing sliders that aren't PG head over to those threads.


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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

here's the most infamous thread regarding.................accurate physiology. https://cityoftitans.com/forum/jiggle-physics-good-bad-and-ugly?page=6#comment-124905

Well now what’d you have to go and do that for DV. :p

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Isamu Kuno wrote:
Isamu Kuno wrote:
DesViper wrote:

here's the most infamous thread regarding.................accurate physiology. https://cityoftitans.com/forum/jiggle-physics-good-bad-and-ugly?page=6#comment-124905

City of Titans is rated T for Teen, and that answers all questions relating to .......accurate physiology.

Again, I point to Superman Returns. PG-13 and he's neither flat nor obscene.

I'd like to point out that the rating systems for movies and video games are done by different groups. For games there is the Entertainment Software Rating Board and for movies there is the Motion Picture Association of America. Which means the two different media get two different groups enforcing two different sets of guidelines and standards for the ratings. Which means even if it makes logical sense for you to compare the two in a vacuum, it does not work that way with how the industries are set up for content ratings. The devs have done their research into following the guidelines so they can get the rating they want, so they can't really risk bending or breaking the rules just because of a request for a genital bump slider.

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The fact of the matter is

The fact of the matter is that this has been discussed and decided. If you'd like to change it at this point the only way that is going to happen is to make a mod after release. Additional discussion is unlikely to persuade so lets drop this topic in this thread and take it to those threads that haven't been locked...yet.

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Suggestion: Perhaps we could

Suggestion: Perhaps have an Environment that puts our hero on the cover of TIMWM* magazine. Hero of the year or somesuch. Maybe customizable bylines.
* "This Is MWM"

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Still waiting for the "police

Still waiting for the "police lineup" background with height markers on it so we can visually confirm how tall our characters are before finalizing them to enter the shared world.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Still waiting for the "police lineup" background with height markers on it so we can visually confirm how tall our characters are before finalizing them to enter the shared world.

As long as the character is no longer floating a couple inches off the floor that would be good.

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After trying some more of the

After trying some more of the CC today and yesterday, there's some things Ive noticed that bug me about the CC. Like the waist sliders for M&F body types are exact opposites. They both start at '0' on the scale, but when you raise the waist slider on the masculine body, you get a wider waist, while on feminine bodies, you get a slimmer waist. Some consistency and the ability to increase or decrease waist size for for both models would be really nice. I keep trying to get a thicker or slimmer waist, only to have to use the body type sliders to get the effect I want because the waist slider does the opposite of what I wanted.

It'd also be nice if the eye rotation slider went both ways. Right now it only turns eyes clockwise, creating this kind of angle: \\ //
But some characters I've tried to make with this kind of angle: // \\ , but I am unable to turn them counter-clockwise with the eye rotation. It'd be nice to be able to rotate them both directions.

Also a small nitpick, but it's really hard to make a more androgynous to feminine looking character with the masculine body. The parts that give me the most issue in this regard are how the torso is shaped.
I'm using an attempt I did at making an adolescent model to show off my points.

The torso has a weird curve to it, even when you have the skinny/old age sliders on high, and especially when you combine them with the various sliders that shape the torso. Which makes the torso look a bit wonky and unnatural. All the tweaking I tried could not fix that weird curve, which seems to come from either the model's ribcage, the oblique muscle group, or both as a result of shaping the model to look big and buff as a default.
Another problem, which I mentioned before, is the lack of control of the waist slider. I can made the masculine model wider, but I can't curve the waist inwards, which would help even more in creating a thinner/more feminine bodied character while using the masculine base.
And, as the picture shows, making the arms skinny makes them look very lumpy, even while I'm using the sweet graphics level. The model itself definitely needs more testing for skinny characters. A friend of mine made some of their own characters who are beanpoles and they had the same problems as I'm listing here.

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Here's my take on this:

Here's my take on this:

Pros:
- Nice slider control. Reminiscent of CO's character builder (which does have sliders, but not this detailed).
- Decent selection of clothes for starting. Knowing it is pre-alpha it has a decent set.
- Bit more unique styles.

Cons:
- Breasts. They look bad in the bigger settings. It's been stated, but agreed, they -need- support.
- Slimmer models look atrocious. The lower settings for the shoulders look like I put them in a hydraulic press!
- Lack of female options. Some heroines don't wear simply spandex. Some wear skirts. Heck, some men wear kilts. A bikini or low-rise panty style would be nice as well, and more bra varieties.
- No monster parts. Several CO characters I want to recreate here can't be... no wings, no goat legs, no hooves. At least you have horns.
- Clipping is an issue on jackets. Some clothing simply is not made for a female form.
- Some of the parts simply don't show up, and are grey blocks on the selection screens. Sometimes fire hands are there, sometimes not.
- Instead of just sliders, how about also baseline head styles combined with sliders. Similar to CO, where you can choose a base body part style, and fiddle with the details with the sliders. Would make character creation more fluid and quicker.

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MikaMerrow wrote:
MikaMerrow wrote:

- Clipping is an issue on jackets. Some clothing simply is not made for a female form.

That reminds me: didn't we hear a couple years back that one of the magic things about using the Unreal engine was that it could handle layers, automatically molding an upper layer to fit over a lower one so that we wouldn't have this sort of issue?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
MikaMerrow wrote:

- Clipping is an issue on jackets. Some clothing simply is not made for a female form.

That reminds me: didn't we hear a couple years back that one of the magic things about using the Unreal engine was that it could handle layers, automatically molding an upper layer to fit over a lower one so that we wouldn't have this sort of issue?

The layers thing was a technique we could use with the engine to reduce draw calls. That and we could actually layer clothing itself instead of creating a piece that appeared like layered clothes.

So we have stuff like placing a jacket over a shirt, is red of a jacket with a shirt as one piece.

Getting the clipping to resolve is possible with greater optimization, it’s not as simple as “click here it all goes away”.

I would expect to see improvements over time in this area.

The engine also allows us to use cloth that behaves like clothe, the limits to this are based on the needs of the game. Ours being an MMO we have to reduce the polys and clothe behaviors to reduce load which allows more characters in screen.


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Rats -- guess I misunderstood

Rats -- guess I misunderstood what we were told at the time. :-(

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Rats -- guess I misunderstood what we were told at the time. :-(

No worries. If we had a simple system, like very limited morphs to adjust on the model, there would be a lot less issues too. But because we aim high with customization, we have found limits of even what the engine provides. Hence, the additional optimization needed.


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