Discuss: Where We Stand - The Spandex

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Lothic
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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

Lothic, I appreciate your passion, but you seem a bit harsh to me.

Well for what it's worth I've seen too many people try to use the "I'd rather the Devs spend time on more IMPORTANT things" argument only to realize that what they consider "important" is just as subjective and opinionated as anything I've ever suggested. We're all special snowflakes on this forum so don't take it too personally. *shrugs*

Hero_Zero wrote:

Even as you discount my argument you note, "This means the greatest SACRIFICE we might have to face if MWM spends a bit of effort on nipple bumps is perhaps a few costume items...". I clearly said I'd rather have more costume pieces, "...mission I've completed, additional costume pieces, classes...".

And I clearly said that the few costume items in question would eventually be added even if the effort spent on something like nipple bumps delayed them for a short time. Seriously take a breath and think about what your implying here... This game is going to have many THOUSANDS of costume items eventually. If you actually think you'd miss (or even notice the absence of) a couple of them as a worse case consequence of all this until they were eventually added later then I think you might be obsessing a little too much about this issue in general.

Hero_Zero wrote:

Furthermore I have to wonder how much development you have done as your confidence in the level of effort would give me cause for suspicion. Often the simplest sounding things become nightmares to code. In addition to that you seem oddly familiar with the internal working of MWM. Being a small team I suspect each of them wears many hats. I suspect the moment they finish a task they start looking for some other way to move the project forward. I submit that the coding needed could become quite significant. I doubt such bumps should show through armor. Is that quality a simple setting? Do players get to adjust the size, shape, or location of the bumps? What about anatomical hair? What about other anatomical bulges? Do the avatar owners get to choose if bumps exist as opposed to the observer choosing to see them? Some may prefer that none of their avatars have bumps regardless of what observers want to see. Some may want only specific avatars to have bumps. Each of these require analysis and coding and could turn into a nightmare task.

Well I've been a professional software engineer for over 20 years so you can cut me a tiny bit of slack for having a vague clue about what I'm talking about here.

I will gladly concede I don't have first-hand knowledge of MWM's code or progress at this point. But despite my very educated speculation on the matter you've tossed up a metric-ton of convoluted "what if" mumbo-jumbo just to try to make the idea of adding nipple bumps to characters in this game the equivalent of something that would require the level of planning and strategic skill of an Operation Overlord to accomplish. Nice try but you'll have to turn back the level of hyperbole a notch or two - a simple nipple bump toggle switch per costume slot literally answers every vaguely legitimate concern you tried to spew here.

Hero_Zero wrote:

If you think that's a "strawman" argument then there's still the fact that there are downside risks. Regardless of the level of effort, bumps could cost COT paying players.

If you can show some qualitative evidence for how many people would leave or avoid CoT based on it having this one optional feature then I'll be happy to consider your point. But taking into account that CoT will likely allow us to make characters at least as sexy (risque?) as these if not more so:

It seems like worrying that a minor detail like nipple bumps would be taking things a "step too far" is naive at best and laughable at worst.

Hero_Zero wrote:

As I said before, "I trust MWM will evaluate the ROI and prioritize this accordingly. I'm OK either way but suspect it's better to put those resources into other features." You can call it a strawman argument all you want, but I doubt MWM developers have a lot of free time regardless of division of responsibilities.

I never said MWM had a bunch of free time either. But that will never stop me from suggesting things they could add to the game. Many of the cool things that were added to CoH over the years started off as player suggestions and were added despite the "lack of time" the Devs were already constantly dealing with.

Hero_Zero wrote:

By the way this, "At most we're talking about a few hours of effort tops." is where I know you are wrong. You do not know that with certainty.

But just as certainly you can't prove my reasonable estimate on this is orders of magnitude wrong either. *shrugs*

I know you've likely decided to disregard my assessment of the scope of this situation but seriously (really, seriously) if I thought this whole nipple bump thing was a truly major software effort that would literally take hundreds of man-hours to complete I would NEVER bother to suggest it for CoT. The only reason I'd like to see it done if possible is because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I'm proposing here is absolutely NOT a major effort to accomplish.

Would this require at least -some- effort to implement? Of course it would. But I could live without random face mask #37 for a bit in order to get something as unique and interesting as this feature in its place.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I kind of figured you were

I kind of figured you were one of the tech people around by your comments here but, anyways.

Like the textures, like the proportions, they are perfect.

You asked, "“How can we make it better" You already have, but there is something big going on recently in the MMO universe. It is called Steamworkshop and mods.

I do not want to go too far off the topic, but VO is planning to have the community pitch in on the creation of the world through Steamworkshop. Ark has a huge following solely because of that imo. Would CoT do something like this?

Very neat tool
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=219416844&searchtext=superman
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=507940090&searchtext=crash+
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=154457318&searchtext=sonic

I know there are some devs among the fanbase, or people with experience in sofware, etc.

SoH are not even going to have claws, because of possible Wolverine backlash. VO however are set on using the workshop which can produce things like this. Unless they changed their minds, it should be interesting.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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Bad idea. The TTP is nigh

Bad idea. The TTP is nigh zero nowadays with mods, and it's impossible to have any decent curation on it.

Aside from that, it makes things like character creation entirely pointless, 'since you can mod it'.

And even worse: Modding will make actually playing the game nearly pointless, since there's so many things you can mod or change to make it easier for example. It completely invalidates anything you "achieve" in an MMO.

You need to have proper editorial control over all the content at one single point, and have all developers face in the same direction. It's also a classic case of 'too many cooks'.

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Khrome wrote:
Khrome wrote:

Bad idea. The TTP is nigh zero nowadays with mods, and it's impossible to have any decent curation on it.
Aside from that, it makes things like character creation entirely pointless, 'since you can mod it'.
And even worse: Modding will make actually playing the game nearly pointless, since there's so many things you can mod or change to make it easier for example. It completely invalidates anything you "achieve" in an MMO.
You need to have proper editorial control over all the content at one single point, and have all developers face in the same direction. It's also a classic case of 'too many cooks'.

Subjective taste. I heard them say something about Steamworkshop somewhere in there.

http://namesakeradio.com/media.html

I dont see the difference between devs assigning you armor vs the community in terms of enjoyment. It does not diminish character creation. Oddly the fans seem to make the best armors, Skyrim, Ark, and Xcom 2, are examples. It has actually made the character creation process that much deeper.

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Many games with player mods

Many games with player mods which can affect hoe other players see snother player are not found in mmos. The reason being, it creates a problem security wise. In a game themed around super heroes, with powers that may be similar to trademaked heroes, you can also end up with problems regarding the haracter appearance and abilities directly copying an existing character - opening up the issue to law suits.

One such lawsuit did indeed happen in the past. Having a client-side only mod is possible. Don't expect the outright ability to mod server-side interactions.


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And even worse: Modding will
Khrome wrote:

And even worse: Modding will make actually playing the game nearly pointless, since there's so many things you can mod or change to make it easier for example. It completely invalidates anything you "achieve" in an MMO.

Phararri wrote:

I dont see the difference between devs assigning you armor vs the community in terms of enjoyment. It does not diminish character creation. Oddly the fans seem to make the best armors, Skyrim, Ark, and Xcom 2, are examples. It has actually made the character creation process that much deeper.

As Tannim222 said if they allow any kind of "modding" in CoT it'll almost certainly be exactly the same kind of modding they allowed in CoH which was VERY STRICTLY client-side only and exclusively limited to non-combat affecting things like costume textures or GUI tweaks. There was absolutely nothing you could do to affect anyone else's experience in the MMO unless they also had the exact same client-side mod to be able to "see" the same thing on their screens as you could.

Frankly the very idea of being able "fully mod" any MMO like CoT using something like Steamworkshop that might allow you to directly change a character's game stats or combat modifiers the same way you could tinker with a SINGLE-PLAYER game like Skyrim or Fallout 4 is laughably unthinkable. If other MMOs like VO are actually going to try that I'd be amazed if it was going to involve anything beyond client-side only mods. Perhaps if something like Steamworkshop can be set up so that it would ONLY provide client-side modding then maybe it'd be something worth considering here.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Many games with player mods which can affect hoe other players see snother player are not found in mmos. The reason being, it creates a problem security wise. In a game themed around super heroes, with powers that may be similar to trademaked heroes, you can also end up with problems regarding the haracter appearance and abilities directly copying an existing character - opening up the issue to law suits.
One such lawsuit did indeed happen in the past. Having a client-side only mod is possible. Don't expect the outright ability to mod server-side interactions.

This should definitely be interesting, as VO will be the first, besides Ark and the super saiyan/pokemon antics, but a superhero mmo doing this would be quite intriguing. I want to see how this plays out.I am hard on them but they push the envelope in terms of ideas, their issue is execution issue, for now at least, but enough about VO. I was just curious about CoT costumes, thanks for the answer.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Frankly the very idea of being able "fully mod" any MMO like CoT using something like Steamworkshop that might allow you to directly change a character's game stats or combat modifiers the same way you could tinker with a SINGLE-PLAYER game like Skyrim or Fallout 4 is laughably unthinkable. If other MMOs like VO are actually going to try that I'd be amazed if it was going to involve anything beyond client-side only mods. Perhaps if something like Steamworkshop can be set up so that it would ONLY provide client-side modding then maybe it'd be something worth considering here.

As far as I know, Steam Workshop is only a "dumb" repository for mods with basic functionality for installing updating and deleting, just like Nexus Mods or Curse Gaming. It does not have any say in what can and can't be modded in a game, nor how far "down" in a client-server architecture in can affect the game.

Most games I have played with Steam Workshop support has had another mod handling system that works independently of Workshop (and any other such modding site) to do the actual mod handling so you can enable and disable them without the need to install and uninstall them, and doing so regardless of how they were initially installed.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

This should definitely be interesting, as VO will be the first, besides Ark and the super saiyan/pokemon antics, but a superhero mmo doing this would be quite intriguing. I want to see how this plays out.I am hard on them but they push the envelope in terms of ideas, their issue is execution issue, for now at least, but enough about VO. I was just curious about CoT costumes, thanks for the answer.

Actually as I pointed out CoH was the first superhero MMO that allowed modding back in 2004. But again as I pointed out that was strictly client-side only modding for obvious reasons.

To be clear I'm not actually against the idea of modding games in general. I understand that the playerbase can often come up with all sorts of creative things that the Devs either didn't have time for or didn't even think of. But since CoT will be MMO there will have to be VERY strict limitations on what could ever be modded. Unlike single-player games CoT would NEVER allow any player to change server-side content or be able to change anything that would give them any kind of in-game advantages over other players not using mods.

I have tinkered around with the modding that was available in CoH as well as more modern games (like Fallout 4) and there's obviously a huge difference with what we the players were allowed to mess with in each of those cases. As long as you understand you will likely never have the degree of freedom to change things in CoT as you might have had in those other single-player games then you won't set yourself up for any disappointment here.

blacke4dawn wrote:

As far as I know, Steam Workshop is only a "dumb" repository for mods with basic functionality for installing updating and deleting, just like Nexus Mods or Curse Gaming. It does not have any say in what can and can't be modded in a game, nor how far "down" in a client-server architecture in can affect the game.

Most games I have played with Steam Workshop support has had another mod handling system that works independently of Workshop (and any other such modding site) to do the actual mod handling so you can enable and disable them without the need to install and uninstall them, and doing so regardless of how they were initially installed.

Again if these things can set up so that they only allow for client-side modding then I'd have no problem with it. I toyed around with Nexus while playing Fallout 4 but I'm no expert with it so I didn't know if it could apply to MMOs the same way they could be used for single-player games.

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Let's also not forget that in

Let's also not forget that in multiplayer games there is a certain amount of latency factored into the way the engine runs.

Your client and the server are often running the same processes in parallel. But when they check up with each other periodically, it is the process in the server that wins any disagreements. So as you are running through an area, your client goes through all the calculations and processes associated with running through the area. And that's what you see for a bit. But if there was a slowdown on the server side, or there were latency issues, the server might not have gotten word that you were running for the past 0.5 seconds, and so you see your character's position in the world snap back to where the server thinks you are. We know this as rubberbanding. It doesn't happen in single player games because your client is the server in a single player game.

If we start adding mods to our clients that change what our clients think we are doing or seeing, this may start disagreeing with the server, and we could get some weird effects. I can't think of what mods might effect game engine processes that would be limited to client-side only, but just because I can't think of any right now doesn't mean someone else won't.

As long as the mods are purely visual and stick to things like reskinning existing textures, adding flare or glare or bloom, and other such effects, they will probably tax your graphics processes and not your gameplay processes; but as soon as you start modding the behaviors of your animations, your pets or anything else that could impact your client's game engine processes, then I think you could start seeing weird behavior in game performance as well, and perhaps other people in the game would see you rubberbanding even if you don't.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Again if these things can set up so that they only allow for client-side modding then I'd have no problem with it. I toyed around with Nexus while playing Fallout 4 but I'm no expert with it so I didn't know if it could apply to MMOs the same way they could be used for single-player games.

Every MMO that I have played that officially allows modding has limited it to client-side cosmetics and informational so there is absolutely no problems with MWM imposing such limits for mods in CoT. The big thing with mods is that you build an API specifically for it and through that one you control what can and can't be done through it.

There is no magic involved that just because you enable mods it must be possible to change basic game play and/or stats of players enemies and such.

If you are referring to Steam Workshop (and Curse and Nexus) by "these things" then again they have nothing to do with what the mod is allowed to do or not to do.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

As long as the mods are purely visual and stick to things like reskinning existing textures, adding flare or glare or bloom, and other such effects, they will probably tax your graphics processes and not your gameplay processes; but as soon as you start modding the behaviors of your animations, your pets or anything else that could impact your client's game engine processes, then I think you could start seeing weird behavior in game performance as well, and perhaps other people in the game would see you rubberbanding even if you don't.

This would be the core difference between client side only modding (which would involve no extra/special communication between the server and client) and any kind of modding that could potentially involve mucking around with how the server works for everyone.

CoH allowed for client side modding. It would let you swap out costume textures, GUI maps, sounds that powers made and so on. These mods simply replaced specific data files with other data files on your client - they in no way affected the server or any other player. If CoT allowed for that kind of modding then I suppose you could potentially add so many mods that it could impact the performance of your own graphics processing and thus mess up your general gameplay experience. But again since it would never involve any extra data/message transfer to the server to support those mods you would never see the kind of "rubberbanding" that can happen in a MMO.

Even restricting modding to be client side only is technically risky and it's the reason the CoH kept it as a "don't ask, don't tell" topic - they allowed it to happen but if you messed something up they would not give you any customer support to fix it. I would imagine it would more or less work the same way for CoT.

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Lothic
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Every MMO that I have played that officially allows modding has limited it to client-side cosmetics and informational so there is absolutely no problems with MWM imposing such limits for mods in CoT. The big thing with mods is that you build an API specifically for it and through that one you control what can and can't be done through it.

There is no magic involved that just because you enable mods it must be possible to change basic game play and/or stats of players enemies and such.

If you are referring to Steam Workshop (and Curse and Nexus) by "these things" then again they have nothing to do with what the mod is allowed to do or not to do.

I was pretty sure there was no "magic" involved. I understand the concept of APIs... been developing them myself for years. Just because I'm not a "game modding" expert doesn't mean I don't understand the basic software behind the concept.

Just making sure that people in this thread understood, in general, that the type of mods you can get away with in a single-player game will not likely be the same kind of mods that would be allowed in a MMO. Just because games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 will let you mod almost anything doesn't mean that a game like CoT will provide for the same degree of freedom. I was getting the feeling that point was being lost in this thread. *shrugs*

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Then please address that

Then please address that specific point directly. Starting of with what essentially reads as "if it can be done" makes it look like you don't know how it works, and is also NOT informative to the people you claim to want to help there. Hence my detailed explanation.

The only point you needed to stress was that the devs decide what can and can't be officially modded. Potentially adding that mods for MMO's are almost exclusively of the cosmetic and informative types since excluding everything that touches game play/mechanics is the best way to make it "fair".

But just out of curiosity, since you have such knowledge in programming what made you think that a repository of mods could enforce what can be modded in a game? You did effectively pose that question.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Then please address that specific point directly. Starting of with what essentially reads as "if it can be done" makes it look like you don't know how it works, and is also NOT informative to the people you claim to want to help there. Hence my detailed explanation.

I'm quite sure there are still a lot of people out there who didn't even realize CoH was client-side modable. So when people like that are coming to this thread implying "it'd be a really cool thing if someone ever made a superhero game that you could mod" then clearly there are people who are likely coming at this topic with practically NO in-depth knowledge of how modding works at all much less in detail. "Detailed explanations" as you put it sometimes overshoot the people you're trying to talk to in cases like this. I'd rather explain it in the non-jargony way Tannim222 did and keep things at a very high level.

blacke4dawn wrote:

The only point you needed to stress was that the devs decide what can and can't be officially modded. Potentially adding that mods for MMO's are almost exclusively of the cosmetic and informative types since excluding everything that touches game play/mechanics is the best way to make it "fair".

I still get the feeling that there are people out there who loved all the mods they could do in say Skyrim and think that we should be able to do all of that in CoT without stopping to consider there's a world of difference between what's "fair" to mod in a single-player game versus a MMO. If people out there are missing such a fundamental point as that then it's probably worth keeping a discussion like this as NON-TECHNICAL as possible.

blacke4dawn wrote:

But just out of curiosity, since you have such knowledge in programming what made you think that a repository of mods could enforce what can be modded in a game? You did effectively pose that question.

Obviously the Devs of a game have full control over what they allow to be moddable or not. Let's not be pedantic here shall we?

You well know that mod repositories could contain ANYTHING whether its legal/valid to use for a particular game or not so it's entirely conceivable that a given repository could contain things that the Devs of a MMO might otherwise NOT want them have including tools to break/crack/exploit their code. Even if there's nothing malicious in a given repository we know that deprecation happens in games all the time. Repositories will never 100% mirror that which is "allowable" in a given game so there will always be room for them to police themselves better. Based on the need to police their own content "a repository of mods could [literally] enforce what can be modded" based on what they allow to exist in their own mod collections.

Regardless of that nitpicking you're entirely missing the point of what these repositories REPRESENT to other people who are drawing the wrong conclusions about them. The real concern here is that you have people in this thread citing examples of mods that are very likely NOT going to be allowed by MWM and are yet still asking the question, "Are we going to be able to use the kinds of mods we find in the repositories for games like Skyrim in CoT?" People are looking at the existing repositories for these other games as debatable precedent for what they think should be in CoT without making the highly critical distinction between single-player and MMO games.

So it ultimately doesn't matter if a mod repository could (or should) enforce what a given game will or won't allow. The point is that there are people blindly asking the question "If I can use mods from repository X, Y or Z to mod game/mission content in something like Fallout 4 why can't I do it in CoT?" I'm just hoping that they won't be too shocked when they find that their precious repositories will only have like 1/10 the mods for CoT as compared to other single-player games.

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So, devs, are we going to get

So, devs, are we going to get client-side modding in CoT?

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

So, devs, are we going to get client-side modding in CoT?

Like many things I don't think they've declared a 100% 'yes' or 'no' on the subject yet.
It's likely still in their "would be -nice- to have" bin at the moment.

Our best indicator for CoT is that we know it existed in CoH. Sadly that's no guarantee that it MUST be a part of CoT.

As always if a Dev wants to jump in and give us any definite info on this that would be... nice. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
So, devs, are we going to get client-side modding in CoT?
Like many things I don't think they've declared a 100% 'yes' or 'no' on the subject yet.
It's likely still in their "would be -nice- to have" bin at the moment.
Our best indicator for CoT is that we know it existed in CoH. Sadly that's no guarantee that it MUST be a part of CoT.
As always if a Dev wants to jump in and give us any definite info on this that would be... nice. ;)

Should be noted that even if they don't officially support Modding, there is nothing stopping the users from doing some mods. Final Fantasy 7 for the PC, even the *original* version back in 1998, got modded by players (different textures/models/music etc etc), and even some gameplay mods.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

So, devs, are we going to get client-side modding in CoT?

I can tell you now that if your browser can load custom client-size stylesheets, then the CoT website will be client-side moddable. :P

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
So, devs, are we going to get client-side modding in CoT?
I can tell you now that if your browser can load custom client-size stylesheets, then the CoT website will be client-side moddable. :P

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Costumes are looking great,

Costumes are looking great, can't wait to see what the designers come up with next.

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TriNitroToluene wrote:
TriNitroToluene wrote:

OOOH, spandex. I look good in spandex. Well, not me personally...

One question though, how come all the female Paragons are clearly human (and attactive ones as far as I can see) whereas the males are all either robots or monsters?
Not that I mind though, as a member of my old P&P group noted I do have a penchant for monsters... it's just something that sticks out and made me curious to know the reason.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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There's always Particle. From

There's always Particle. From the forum post on how the Paragons were made: "To balance his awkward and sometimes inhuman teammates, we made Particle a charming, outgoing man who often serves as the Paragons’ public relations agent."

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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:

There's always Particle. From the forum post on how the Paragons were made: "To balance his awkward and sometimes inhuman teammates, we made Particle a charming, outgoing man who often serves as the Paragons’ public relations agent."

Does Particle ever fight Triangle, and when they do, Triangle wins? >.> <.<

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Airhead wrote:
There's always Particle. From the forum post on how the Paragons were made: "To balance his awkward and sometimes inhuman teammates, we made Particle a charming, outgoing man who often serves as the Paragons’ public relations agent."
Does Particle ever fight Triangle, and when they do, Triangle wins? >.> <.<

When he's under water, does he get wet? Or does the water get him instead?

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Hmm... must've missed that

Hmm... must've missed that update.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

When he's under water, does he get wet? Or does the water get him instead?

His super-fussy brother, Particle R, should know those details.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

T for Teen, guys.
Not HT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkgqrZWS-T4

Oh cmon, I think a ribbed latex costume is PG enough to get past the censor, eh ;)

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

One question though, how come all the female Paragons are clearly human (and attactive ones as far as I can see) whereas the males are all either robots or monsters?
Not that I mind though, as a member of my old P&P group noted I do have a penchant for monsters... it's just something that sticks out and made me curious to know the reason.

Truthfully, I figured that was because of those creating the game.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

notears wrote:
lipstick on guys and girls
Wait sorry meant to put this in the costume request thread

There's a delete ;)

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Seems to me we disagree on

Seems to me we disagree on the ROI and thus the priority. It's no big deal really, but I do have to point out one thing.

Lothic wrote:

...I think you might be obsessing a little too much about this issue in general.

Have you seen the length of your post on this? Or your posts on jiggle physics? Someone is obsessed, but it's not me.

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:
Lothic wrote:

...I think you might be obsessing a little too much about this issue in general.

Have you seen the length of your post on this? Or your posts on jiggle physics? Someone is obsessed, but it's not me.

So you choose to respond to a part of one sentence of a post I wrote roughly two months ago calling me out (mostly) for the contents of another thread I haven't even -read- in about a month much less posted to in that time? Sure I might have written quite a bit about these topics at the time people were actively discussing them but only when they were, well, topical. Again I could easily make the case that you're the one obsessing a little -too- much about these issues in general now.

P.S. Ironically I fully expect that eventually these topics will make a comeback and there'll be a bunch of "renewed" debate about all this all over again. But until other folks decide to bring it back to life I'm willing to let it linger in the shadows. For what it's worth I didn't start the "jiggle" topic/threads and I've never necro'd them.

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I'm mostly calling you out

I'm rebutting your assertion that I'm obsessing. I use evidence on this thread and then briefly reference a similar thread where you also obsessed, thus establishing a pattern.

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

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Objection, your honor.

Objection, your honor. Leading the witness.... :P

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

I'm rebutting your assertion that I'm obsessing. I use evidence on this thread and then briefly reference a similar thread where you also obsessed, thus establishing a pattern.

Now your obsession here seems to have morphed into proving I'm obsessed with something? *sigh*

OK, if it'll keep you from slitting your wrists agonizing over how much I post or don't post about things I'll freely admit I'm "obsessed" with pixelated versions of nipples, body jiggle and anything else you want to accuse me of... even though you're the one who necro'd this particular sad line of discussion back to life.

For what it's worth I might still respond on any thread where these topics flare up again (after all I'm apparently obsessed with them) but at least I'm not "obsessed" enough to necro the threads in question that are trying to die of their own accord. I'll gladly repeat and swear to whatever gods you worship that I haven't even -read- the infamous jiggle thread in weeks now.

P.S. Don't forget that the only way I was ever able to post a flurry of posts on these topics was that I had folks like you furiously trying to keep up with me. Pot, kettle, black.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Objection, your honor. Leading the witness.... :P

Clearly he actually WANTS to keep me going here. ;)

P.S. Just to prove my point about not reading the "jiggle" thread here's my current thread listing for it:

Note I haven't even seen the latest 32 posts on that thread...

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Objection, your honor. Leading the witness.... :P

That's funny. How about this?

Lothic wrote:

blah, blah, mental backflip
more posts
more blah, blah, sounds like Ajit Pai explaining why net neutrality is bad.

You have an interesting way of conceding a single point.

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The activity in this tread

The activity in this thread made me read up on it and all I gotta say is, I WANT NIPPLE BUMPS!

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Haven't been around for a

Haven't been around for a little while, but it's good to know things are just as Spicey as ever


Oh god, not you!!!

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

blah, blah, mental backflip
more posts
more blah, blah

No, no... it's not "blah, blah, mental backflip, posts, blah, blah". It's more like "blah, flying spin, blah, lutz jump, blah, post, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust"...

Hero_Zero wrote:

sounds like Ajit Pai explaining why net neutrality is bad

Well if you're going to drag real world politics into this you might as well peg me to the correct side of the CoT political spectrum. Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?

Think about it: If good old Bernie Sanders was a hopeful future CoT player don't you'd think he'd be spouting off things like "I want free nipples and body jiggle for all players, not just the ones who can afford to pay for special 1% Kickstarter perks. And I want the Devs to give us those things no matter how much extra time/effort they cost because we deserve them as basic player rights". Sound familiar? ;)

On the other hand your classic fundamentalist conservative would be all like "No! There should be no sinful nipples or body jiggle in our wholesome family superhero game because it'll give our impressionable youth the wrong evil ideas about how human bodies should look and move. Besides I don't want our Devs wasting any extra time/effort on such trivial unimportant nonsense like that regardless. The Devs should only be focusing on Making the Basic Game Great Again, not any of those extra cosmetic entitlements that only those weird LBGQXYZ fringe people want." Doesn't that sound more like what a neo-Objectivist wack-job like Ajit Pai would likely say?

So if you're going to bother to correlate my humble little obsession (it was an obsession right? glad you cleared that up) to real world political wing-nuttery you might as well assign me properly on the CoT political spectrum.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

No, no... it's not "blah, blah, mental backflip, posts, blah, blah". It's more like "blah, flying spin, blah, lutz jump, blah, post, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust"...

Thank you. You actually made me laugh. Your action montage conjured up the image of Daffy Duck with his quarterstaff.

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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:
Lothic wrote:

No, no... it's not "blah, blah, mental backflip, posts, blah, blah". It's more like "blah, flying spin, blah, lutz jump, blah, post, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust"...

Thank you. You actually made me laugh. Your action montage conjured up the image of Daffy Duck with his quarterstaff.

You get a gold star! I was wondering if anyone would see what I did there. :)

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Lothic, that was pretty funny

Lothic, that was pretty funny. Good on ya, mate! Just to be clear, i want bumps and jiggle and all that too. I just don't think it's going to happen on this title. But their next title...

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
Lothic wrote:
No, no... it's not "blah, blah, mental backflip, posts, blah, blah". It's more like "blah, flying spin, blah, lutz jump, blah, post, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust"...
Thank you. You actually made me laugh. Your action montage conjured up the image of Daffy Duck with his quarterstaff.
You get a gold star! I was wondering if anyone would see what I did there. :)

See it? I can still taste the lemon meringue.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

Lothic, that was pretty funny. Good on ya, mate! Just to be clear, i want bumps and jiggle and all that too. I just don't think it's going to happen on this title. But their next title...

I'm enough of a realist to realize that there will still be many things left on the Devs' "To Do List" even by the time this game officially launches. We may collectively quibble about the priorities concerning which features should be implemented before others but that doesn't change the fact that there will always be a list of priorities that dictate some things must happen before other things. I have always sincerely understood that.

But I also look back over the history of CoH and see all the things the Devs of that game were able to do that even they themselves didn't think were possible at the time. For example when they were considering the challenge of adding wings to CoH they were seriously considering having to create an entirely new pair of pre-winged male and female body models with their own unique hardwired epic AT. They thought they'd have to do this because at first they didn't know how they'd be able to add wings as an optional costume item to preexisting characters. Basically if you wanted wings you were going to have to roll up an entirely new character with permanent wings attached to your back - there was going to be nothing "optional" about it. Thankfully they eventually overcame the limitations they thought they were stuck with and were finally able to create the "wings as costume items" that we were able to enjoy.

My point is I don't know if semi-silly things "nip bumps" and/or "body jiggle" will ever be deemed important enough for the Devs to figure out but just because they seem "prohibitive" to work on now doesn't mean that someone, somewhere won't eventually figure out a feasible way to make those things viable options to consider. Even if it's limited to client side mods or a hypothetical "CoT2" they will exist eventually if only because every other seemingly trivial/unimportant cosmetic feature we have now first started off as another person's "dumb idea" that arguably no one cared about. I mean we have games out there now that provide players with multiple hundreds of sliders for the face alone. Do we seriously need like 500 face sliders when maybe 50 or 100 would probably satisfy 99.99999% of any playerbase? I think you get the point here.

Hope springs eternal in the human breast...

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Paragon Studios unequivocally

Paragon Studios unequivocally said that we'd NEVER get Ancillary Power Pool color customization, and yet it was coming with the last issue... that we never got... which means technically they were right... but still, you get my point :P!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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/em sarcasm

/em sarcasm

Factually correct; not technically correct.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Hero_Zero wrote:
blah, blah, mental backflip
more posts
more blah, blah
No, no... it's not "blah, blah, mental backflip, posts, blah, blah". It's more like "blah, flying spin, blah, lutz jump, blah, post, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust"...
Hero_Zero wrote:
sounds like Ajit Pai explaining why net neutrality is bad
Well if you're going to drag real world politics into this you might as well peg me to the correct side of the CoT political spectrum. Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?
Think about it: If good old Bernie Sanders was a hopeful future CoT player don't you'd think he'd be spouting off things like "I want free nipples and body jiggle for all players, not just the ones who can afford to pay for special 1% Kickstarter perks. And I want the Devs to give us those things no matter how much extra time/effort they cost because we deserve them as basic player rights". Sound familiar? ;)
On the other hand your classic fundamentalist conservative would be all like "No! There should be no sinful nipples or body jiggle in our wholesome family superhero game because it'll give our impressionable youth the wrong evil ideas about how human bodies should look and move. Besides I don't want our Devs wasting any extra time/effort on such trivial unimportant nonsense like that regardless. The Devs should only be focusing on Making the Basic Game Great Again, not any of those extra cosmetic entitlements that only those weird LBGQXYZ fringe people want." Doesn't that sound more like what a neo-Objectivist wack-job like Ajit Pai would likely say?
So if you're going to bother to correlate my humble little obsession (it was an obsession right? glad you cleared that up) to real world political wing-nuttery you might as well assign me properly on the CoT political spectrum.

Then, I'd have to point out how there's many liberals out there who still don't want those sinful nipples or body jiggles in their wholesome family superhero game. While plenty of conservatives going "Totally willing to pay for them to be put in!" :p

All that said...CoT should still totally look to Blade & Soul in how to do character art style and animation, right!

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?

Then, I'd have to point out how there's many liberals out there who still don't want those sinful nipples or body jiggles in their wholesome family superhero game. While plenty of conservatives going "Totally willing to pay for them to be put in!" :p

I'm sure there would be a few people like that. You can always find exceptions that prove the rule.

Brand X wrote:

All that said...CoT should still totally look to Blade & Soul in how to do character art style and animation, right!

It's funny how everyone seems to have their own "pet cause". I'm not suggesting your point about considering Blade & Soul as an inspiration for CoT is wrong - it's just that I think you've slipped in a "plug" for that game in at least several dozen posts here so far. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?
Then, I'd have to point out how there's many liberals out there who still don't want those sinful nipples or body jiggles in their wholesome family superhero game. While plenty of conservatives going "Totally willing to pay for them to be put in!" :p
I'm sure there would be a few people like that. You can always find exceptions that prove the rule.
Brand X wrote:
All that said...CoT should still totally look to Blade & Soul in how to do character art style and animation, right!
It's funny how everyone seems to have their own "pet cause". I'm not suggesting your point about considering Blade & Soul as an inspiration for CoT is wrong - it's just that I think you've slipped in a "plug" for that game in at least several dozen posts here so far. ;)

I could say Final Fantasy too, but they lack the sliders that B&S does. :p Have to point to something and fight for something.

I could fight for more, but those feel like bigger lost causes than the final art style of the game, which is top 5 if not number 1 main concern I have for CoT. However, I a lot of the other things I think that will fail CoT I REALLY can't change, while art style is the less likely thing to cause it to fail. But I had the feeling on all this when I supported KS and still supported because I totally hope I'm wrong :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I could say Final Fantasy too, but they lack the sliders that B&S does. :p Have to point to something and fight for something.

I could fight for more, but those feel like bigger lost causes than the final art style of the game, which is top 5 if not number 1 main concern I have for CoT. However, I a lot of the other things I think that will fail CoT I REALLY can't change, while art style is the less likely thing to cause it to fail. But I had the feeling on all this when I supported KS and still supported because I totally hope I'm wrong :p

You just have to accept that throwing money at Kicktstarter projects is just a new form of Internet gambling. I threw a nice little ball of money at this one so obviously I continue to have my hopes for it regardless.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I could say Final Fantasy too, but they lack the sliders that B&S does. :p Have to point to something and fight for something.
I could fight for more, but those feel like bigger lost causes than the final art style of the game, which is top 5 if not number 1 main concern I have for CoT. However, I a lot of the other things I think that will fail CoT I REALLY can't change, while art style is the less likely thing to cause it to fail. But I had the feeling on all this when I supported KS and still supported because I totally hope I'm wrong :p
You just have to accept that throwing money at Kicktstarter projects is just a new form of Internet gambling. I threw a nice little ball of money at this one so obviously I continue to have my hopes for it regardless.

I have accepted. It obviously failed already to meet it's start date by a large time frame. Enough so, I already hear many others thinking the game will never go live now.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I have accepted. It obviously failed already to meet it's start date by a large time frame. Enough so, I already hear many others thinking the game will never go live now.

I'm not really sure CoT missed a specific "start date" because I don't recall MWM ever coming close to pinning themselves down like that. But I will freely admit that I sort of expected we would have been into some stage of open beta testing by this point.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But I will freely admit that I sort of expected we would have been into some stage of open beta testing by this point.

Is a beta launched 6 months before the release ? or... how is the average period for a beta ? To my opinion, if there is a beta, it will not be before at least spring 2018 ^^

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well if you're going to drag real world politics into this you might as well peg me to the correct side of the CoT political spectrum. Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?

Well, I had you pegged right ;)

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Lothic wrote:
But I will freely admit that I sort of expected we would have been into some stage of open beta testing by this point.
Is a beta launched 6 months before the release ? or... how is the average period for a beta ? To my opinion, if there is a beta, it will not be before at least spring 2018 ^^

War Thunder just ended their Beta, after 3 years.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I have accepted. It obviously failed already to meet it's start date by a large time frame. Enough so, I already hear many others thinking the game will never go live now.
I'm not really sure CoT missed a specific "start date" because I don't recall MWM ever coming close to pinning themselves down like that. But I will freely admit that I sort of expected we would have been into some stage of open beta testing by this point.

I can tell people what the schedule was, and why that changed. Originally we planned on early access/alpha in late 2015, beta a year later, and release for 4 weeks ago, actually. Then UE4 was offered, and that changed everything. We had to redesign major systems around the new potential.

Let me give you an example. With the change to map systems, our world size now was no longer constrained to the 64 square km that UE3 had as a practical limit. So, the world grew, drastically. What were districts became zones, with multiple neighborhoods within them. Now our launch size is the same as max size before, leaving us lots of growth for the future.

And that is just one area. We had the same issues system wide, a good problem to have, honestly.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Let me give you an example. With the change to map systems, our world size now was no longer constrained to the 64 square km that UE3 had as a practical limit. So, the world grew, drastically. What were districts became zones, with multiple neighborhoods within them. Now our launch size is the same as max size before, leaving us lots of growth for the future.
And that is just one area. We had the same issues system wide, a good problem to have, honestly.

So, is this update to update ? ^^ or is it still actual ?

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ok... i've just read better

ok... i've just read better xD "Now our launch size is the same as max size before" I have my answer :p

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
I have accepted. It obviously failed already to meet it's start date by a large time frame. Enough so, I already hear many others thinking the game will never go live now.
I'm not really sure CoT missed a specific "start date" because I don't recall MWM ever coming close to pinning themselves down like that. But I will freely admit that I sort of expected we would have been into some stage of open beta testing by this point.
I can tell people what the schedule was, and why that changed. Originally we planned on early access/alpha in late 2015, beta a year later, and release for 4 weeks ago, actually. Then UE4 was offered, and that changed everything. We had to redesign major systems around the new potential.
Let me give you an example. With the change to map systems, our world size now was no longer constrained to the 64 square km that UE3 had as a practical limit. So, the world grew, drastically. What were districts became zones, with multiple neighborhoods within them. Now our launch size is the same as max size before, leaving us lots of growth for the future.
And that is just one area. We had the same issues system wide, a good problem to have, honestly.

I know you guys have tossed around some "rough estimates" on things over the years and you've mentioned the disruptions that came about with the game engine change many times now. I just quibbled against the idea that you ever set a specific "launch date" that you missed.

TBH, I probably would have been mildly shocked if you had somehow managed to have "officially" launched the game by now, but I will stand by my earlier statement that I also would've thought at least some form of open beta testing would underway at this point.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I think art style is a

I think art style is a significant concern for a lot of folks, but the problem is that almost everyone wants something different -- for example, I find the style of Blade & Soul to be sufficiently horrifying that if CoT ends up looking like that I don't think I'll be able to play it. What we all need to do is be prepared for the likelihood that none of us will be happy with absolutely 100% of CoT and think instead about our tolerances and priorities.

As for the schedule, it seems perfectly reasonable to me given the circumstances -- especially considering the fact that it's a volunteer effort working in their spare time.

Now, I don't want to take away from that precious development time, but hey MWM... can we expect an update soon? I just realised today that it's been almost a month since the last one.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Well if you're going to drag real world politics into this you might as well peg me to the correct side of the CoT political spectrum. Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?
Well, I had you pegged right ;)

Well any sane person who uses the Internet for anything should not want to be lumped onto the same "team" as Ajit Pai so I had to clarify that at the very least that I'm not like him in any way. The man is a twit regardless of your personal real world party affiliation or mine.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
I have accepted. It obviously failed already to meet it's start date by a large time frame. Enough so, I already hear many others thinking the game will never go live now.
I'm not really sure CoT missed a specific "start date" because I don't recall MWM ever coming close to pinning themselves down like that. But I will freely admit that I sort of expected we would have been into some stage of open beta testing by this point.
I can tell people what the schedule was, and why that changed. Originally we planned on early access/alpha in late 2015, beta a year later, and release for 4 weeks ago, actually. Then UE4 was offered, and that changed everything. We had to redesign major systems around the new potential.
Let me give you an example. With the change to map systems, our world size now was no longer constrained to the 64 square km that UE3 had as a practical limit. So, the world grew, drastically. What were districts became zones, with multiple neighborhoods within them. Now our launch size is the same as max size before, leaving us lots of growth for the future.
And that is just one area. We had the same issues system wide, a good problem to have, honestly.

I know you guys have tossed around some "rough estimates" on things over the years and you've mentioned the disruptions that came about with the game engine change many times now. I just quibbled against the idea that you ever set a specific "launch date" that you missed.
TBH, I probably would have been mildly shocked if you had somehow managed to have "officially" launched the game by now, but I will stand by my earlier statement that I also would've thought at least some form of open beta testing would underway at this point.

That is why I said the schedule, not we would have made it. Every milestone we look at the road ahead and re-do the estimate.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Let me give you an example. With the change to map systems, our world size now was no longer constrained to the 64 square km that UE3 had as a practical limit. So, the world grew, drastically. What were districts became zones, with multiple neighborhoods within them. Now our launch size is the same as max size before, leaving us lots of growth for the future.
And that is just one area. We had the same issues system wide, a good problem to have, honestly.
So, is this update to update ? ^^ or is it still actual ?

We have updated since then, based on feedback from our map walkabouts. Corners too tight, bad angles, not enough room for the buildings planned, etc. One of the biggest changes was going from square blocks to rectangular. We will be posting the updated map soon.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We will be posting the updated map soon.

Wouhou \o/ !!

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

desviper wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Well if you're going to drag real world politics into this you might as well peg me to the correct side of the CoT political spectrum. Don't you think my position (obsession?) here sounds more like something a crazy radical liberal might support than a crazy neo-fascist conservative?
Well, I had you pegged right ;)
Well any sane person who uses the Internet for anything should not want to be lumped onto the same "team" as Ajit Pai so I had to clarify that at the very least that I'm not like him in any way. The man is a twit regardless of your personal real world party affiliation or mine.

I'll cheers to that!

But as you were saying Lothic, I don't know if I was expecting to be in game beta by now, but I am endlessly awaiting the day the avatar builder comes out. As long ts the stream of consistent updates comes out, I'll be content.

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Lothic
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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well any sane person who uses the Internet for anything should not want to be lumped onto the same "team" as Ajit Pai so I had to clarify that at the very least that I'm not like him in any way. The man is a twit regardless...

I'll cheers to that!

John Oliver pwn'd that dumbass mug of his hugely...

Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

But as you were saying Lothic, I don't know if I was expecting to be in game beta by now, but I am endlessly awaiting the day the avatar builder comes out. As long ts the stream of consistent updates comes out, I'll be content.

Well the "end of 2018" is not -that- far away considering that the standalone avatar builder was intended to be out well before the game itself. Even if they're hoping to have the avatar builder officially launched say within a year (June 2018) the beta for -that- shouldn't be too far off from now. Obviously none of this is set in stone - I'm just doing the "calendar math" while granting MWM a huge amount of wiggle room all things considered.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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