"if you give God stats he becomes mortal" damn that's good!

My great uncle has had several open heart surgeries, so I know exactly where you're coming from.

Guys that's really scary. I wish you all happy, healthy lives for as long as possible!

warcabbit wrote:

There is going to be a layer cake room in the game.
It will be physics enabled.
You will be able to smash it ALL DOWN.
I don't know when, but I am very insistent on this point.

[youtube]PvFYBkesqGU[/youtube]

No additional comments needed ... ^_~

Grimfox wrote:

Anyone else feel like Lin should also take on "just one more" hat. The PR person hat.

[b][size=72pt]OH HELLS NO.[/size][/b]

Grimfox wrote:

I would volunteer to take on the roll myself but I could only give it about an hour a week and I think it needs probably 2-3 hours just to get updated on all the things going on. Before putting together a post or update or anything like that.

That post took me all morning.

Update posts like you've been seeing? Those routinely take the team a couple days. Assuming they don't need to haul me in for custom styling (like on the augments/refinements update).

Grimfox wrote:

I'd say that to whoever does they should look at lin's post as a shining example of what people are looking for in communication from MWM.

Well, maybe what you're looking for, but long-term that kind of post leads to massive liability problems.

Seriously, though, my time is much better spent on account server and new web site stuff. PR? Too much of an interruption, and frankly, our PR team is way better at that. Really, they are.

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:

Schwartzenegger said, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

In RPG terms, "If you give it stats, players will kill it."

In other words, if you give a god stats, you've just made it mortal.

One of the best game mechanics I've seen is a Superman game, where Superman is invincible, and it's the [i]city of Metropolis[/i] that has the hit points.

Damn, that is creative!

Idk man, I get real anxious when lost :p

Lemme rp as someone who can get around plz

desviper wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:

Schwartzenegger said, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

In RPG terms, "If you give it stats, players will kill it."

In other words, if you give a god stats, you've just made it mortal.

One of the best game mechanics I've seen is a Superman game, where Superman is invincible, and it's the city of Metropolis that has the hit points.

Damn, that is creative!

That was the mechanic in the video game Superman Returns.

"In the main game, Superman is indestructible: no matter what happens to Superman in the game, he cannot be killed. The one exception is during the second part of the tutorial mission which is three boss fights in a row without a checkpoint on War World, here Superman does take damage to the point of mission failure. But Metropolis isn't as fortunate, there is a damage meter - if too much damage is done to the city during a mission (in other words, if the damage meter is fully depleted) then the game ends. Superman has a stamina meter that depletes as more power is used. Player can fly Superman into the atmosphere and absorb sunlight to replenish the stamina meter faster, as performed by Superman many times in comic books."

While a neat concept, the game itself was pretty awful and only has at best a 51/100 on Metacritic (for the Xbox version, which was the highest-rated version). It didn't help that the final boss of the game was "a tornado". Not a supervillain called "The Tornado"; an actual tornado as a natural disaster. Good idea, awful execution.

Atama wrote:

desviper wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:

Schwartzenegger said, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

In RPG terms, "If you give it stats, players will kill it."

In other words, if you give a god stats, you've just made it mortal.

One of the best game mechanics I've seen is a Superman game, where Superman is invincible, and it's the [i]city of Metropolis[/i] that has the hit points.

Damn, that is creative!

That was the mechanic in the video game [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_Returns_(video_game)"]Superman Returns[/url].

...

While a neat concept, the game itself was pretty awful and only has at best a 51/100 on Metacritic (for the Xbox version, which was the highest-rated version). It didn't help that the final boss of the game was "a tornado". Not a supervillain called "The Tornado"; an actual tornado as a natural disaster. Good idea, awful execution.

That's the one. Still, the point being that the "character = bag of hit points" model isn't a requirement; there are alternatives to the trinity.

Its cool, in a way, I kind of moved on. That is not to say I have given up on CoT, but I figured this will happen. Ship of Heroes also missed dates if I recall. & Valiance is.....well...Valiance lol.

I don't know man, it just like, I keep getting these dates from every successor, and they fall through. I agree with Captain Titan though, they are humans. I am just starting to feel, as humans, perhaps these successor projects may not be as tangible as many have originally thought? Making a game is a lot of work.

I just feel like this task is indeed tougher than all of us realized. I am at the point were I doubt any of them will get completed. Anyway, I will be lingering around every now and then until they do. Like I said, I did not give up, fully, on this project. I went so long without a good superhero mmo, that super mmo kind of wore off on me lol. I have not played CO in what seems like forever, nor DCUO.

With so many new games out, I kind of put my cape away, for now. Honestly, not sure if I have any intention of picking it up again for awhile, regardless of what happens in the coming months. If CoT did release their creation this week, not sure I would be excited as I once was. I don't know, it is weird lol.....

ivanhedgehog wrote:

Are we there yet?

Just a joke for anyone that hit the road with kids!!

MWM can turn this car around and drive back home if that’s what you want.

ivanhedgehog wrote:

Atama wrote:

ivanhedgehog wrote:

Are we there yet?

Just a joke for anyone that hit the road with kids!!

MWM can turn this car around and drive back home if that’s what you want.

It would be ok if they just changed the radio statio, the lawrence welk music has been out of style for a long time.

POLKA WILL NEVER DIE!

warcabbit wrote:

ivanhedgehog wrote:

Atama wrote:

ivanhedgehog wrote:

Are we there yet?

Just a joke for anyone that hit the road with kids!!

MWM can turn this car around and drive back home if that’s what you want.

It would be ok if they just changed the radio statio, the lawrence welk music has been out of style for a long time.

I've kinda been listening to the Sirus 40s on 40 station a lot recently. That and Octane. There was some great Gene Krupa drumming on tonight.

My wife is always listening to Octane.

druidknight0 wrote:

Any information on that second round of kickstarters. I know myself and several people in the RPing and game forums I run or am a part of have been waiting (mostly patiently) for me to tell them the new opportunity to back the game is up. thanks for any information

Nope. Since the launch of Issue #0 is delayed then so is the Second Chance fundraiser due to them wanting to show of something substantial (a.k.a Issue #0) for that fundraiser.

The cape material (the original 'plastic') was a good way to showcase the lighting effects. The change to cloth made the cape less prominent in the sense that it wasn't glaring in your face everywhere you moved. Both choices have merit.

DariusWolfe wrote:

I recognize the demo merits of the glossy cape while still hating how it looked. Also, while I'm thinking about it, it feels a little light? A smidge more weight in the cape material might make it seem a bit less floppy.

This was the biggest thing I noticed. Loved just about everything about the video, except for noticing how “twitchy” and light the cape seemed. It’s not as extreme as I’ve seen in past stuff, but it still looks like the cape is a bit too responsive and floppy when directions change.

McJigg wrote:

Floppiness of the cape will never make anyone 100% happy. With realistic, people will complain it looks dull and doesn't flow enough, that it doesn't fit the fantasy of being a hero/villain. With flow, people will complain it's not 'real' enough and breaks immersion.

Ideally we would be able to adjust it to a limited degree - to take into account various materials/thickness. Not sure if that's possible with the current character builder or not - but it would be a cool feature (the downsides being just one more UI element to stick in and one more thing to potentially break of course).

Dark Cleric wrote:

Interdictor wrote:

McJigg wrote:

Floppiness of the cape will never make anyone 100% happy. With realistic, people will complain it looks dull and doesn't flow enough, that it doesn't fit the fantasy of being a hero/villain. With flow, people will complain it's not 'real' enough and breaks immersion.

Ideally we would be able to adjust it to a limited degree - to take into account various materials/thickness. Not sure if that's possible with the current character builder or not - but it would be a cool feature (the downsides being just one more UI element to stick in and one more thing to potentially break of course).

IIRC each material has it's own weight...so if you chose a leather material for your cape it should be pretty heavy and far less wavy.

If that is really so then that could explain why the first one was "heavy vinyl" instead of just "vinyl", meaning that many (maybe even all) material choices could have a light and heavy option, possibly even medium.

Fils Du Nord wrote:

Intensemx wrote:

exactly how much people do you have working on this? i'm sorry but at this point I just feel like it's just an "afterwork hobby" for few people.

CoT is being made by voluntary people who each have their own jobs. So yes, it kind of is an "afterwork hobby", but in time, it will hopefully become more than that.

And still, they got a good bunch of people doing their part. It's not like only 2 or 3 people are working on CoT.
There are lot of volunteers, even if they aren't active on the forum, they still work on the game. But apparently there always people being silent after getting work or never really answered after getting accepted for assisting.

Atama wrote:

Captain_Simian wrote:

I'm sure this will all be dealt with. But that desk looks ENORMOUS compared to the character. Is he intentionally 3'5"?

Yes. He’s very small. I would have used a normal-sized character for a demo like this.

Well they said they had a giant closeout sale at desks are us. Maybe I misread that.

Atama wrote:

Captain_Simian wrote:

I'm sure this will all be dealt with. But that desk looks ENORMOUS compared to the character. Is he intentionally 3'5"?

Yes. He’s very small. I would have used a normal-sized character for a demo like this.

I thought the same thing initially, but after watching both videos a bunch of times the character is 'normal' sized. It is the desk that is giant sized. In the Santa video the character is relatively the same size as the mission contact people. The character is not abnormally smaller than the door frames. The desk is just purposely larger to give it the "big boss" room feel.

Adrenalin wrote:

Whew, okay... 200+ posts later...

I'd like to put some things in perspective here for those that are grumbling. Was our intrepid team overly optimistic? Yes, definitely. I can't say I blame them however because like us, they just want to go home. That they continue to be optimistic is actually a very good thing though.

Guild Wars 2, and keep in mind we're talking about the second build of basically the same MMO, took 5 1/2 years from start to finish. This is a pretty common length of time for MMO development, however Elder Scrolls took 7 and a couple have taken longer. These titles also came from fully fledged studios with full time paid employees. Cryptic Studios, maker of our beloved CoH for anyone new here, was built on the sale of a successful semi-conductor business to Broadcom.

CoT entered it's 6th year of production sometime in November of 2018, which includes the necessary time to purchase the equipment needed to do it with. MWM has no full time employees, I doubt it even has part time employees. Every member of the team is a volunteer, all of them with full time jobs, bills to pay and some if not most have families. That they're even willing to put in the time they have is a testament in itself.

Needless to say, even as someone who donated a good bit of money (compared to my family's budget at the time) via Kickstarter, I'm not worried about missed deadlines. I'm also not worried about the amount of info that is or is not coming out. As someone who camped on Cryptic's doorstep for all of alpha, I can tell you that it could be a lot worse. I pop in here a few times a year to check out what's going on, and as long as our team isn't saying that it's impossible or they're giving up, I'm happy; we'll get there when we get there. For the time being I'll amuse myself with other things and Hubs will continue to build characters on CoH's costume designer. At the last count he had over 250 and was one of those people that had pretty much every slot filled on every server of CoH. Needless to say, I'm guessing just the extra slot purchases from him will be a welcome contribution once CoT is up and running. lol

This dead horse has been beaten to the point there's no horse left...but I want to point out that there are actually very, very few people actually complaining about [i]where[/i] they are in the process. The majority of the [i]complaints[/i], if you will, are about the communication and how this came as such a last minute surprise, being told one day they would still have something by end of year to a 3 month delay the next day. I dont see people on these forums saying "hurry up" or "you should be further along". If you read what they write it's not about any perceived lack of effort or desire. Sure, the other pages, like Facebook, might have different comments, but on these forums there really isn't anyone saying that this shouldn't be taking so long.

It's all about the benchmark people are using. Some are holding the November 2015 date from the Kickstarter as the Holy Grail of Deliveries. Others, like yours truly, are more frustrated by the inconsistent communication. As we've pointed out in the past, communication isn't always about, "Here's a twelve page essay about what we're doing RIGHT NAO." Sometimes communication is as simple as, "Lotta shit going on right now. Can't talk."

Although I'd be VERY DISAPPOINTED if the devs were holding a wet t-shirt contest in a nunnery and I didn't get to hear about it. And I'm talking 'you just ate Godzilla's lunch burrito' level of DISAPPOINTED.

Dark Cleric wrote:

This dead horse has been beaten to the point there's no horse left...but I want to point out that there are actually very, very few people actually complaining about [i]where[/i] they are in the process. The majority of the [i]complaints[/i], if you will, are about the communication and how this came as such a last minute surprise, being told one day they would still have something by end of year to a 3 month delay the next day. I dont see people on these forums saying "hurry up" or "you should be further along". If you read what they write it's not about any perceived lack of effort or desire. Sure, the other pages, like Facebook, might have different comments, but on these forums there really isn't anyone saying that this shouldn't be taking so long.

Errr... not entirely true....

Zerohour wrote:

I am constantly surprised at the pills you guys continue to swallow. It's been more than 5 years of delays and disappointments, of being told "it's getting closer every day". We were promised...PROMISED...something tangible by fall of 2018. Hell, it was in the marketing. Then they come along [I] on the [b]last[/b] day of fall[/I] saying "haha sorry guys excuse x, y, z" and you're all like "oh hey no problem thanks for your hard work, when can I give you more money?" The animation is still wonky, the textures are completely off, the UI looks nowhere near ready. Even the cape looks strange.

What happened to at least getting the chargen to play with by the end of this year? That was pretty much set in stone AGES ago. And no one's even asking about that.

I don't post here very often anymore because my opinions don't jive with most of you all and I've had my hand slapped for it. And that's fine. But there has to come a point where at least some of you stop and think, what's going on here? When does the loyalty/patience/understanding run dry? And now complications are being withheld until the last possible second? We should be seeing way more by now than we have.

^^^^^^

People are certainly expressing complains from all angles here. But, I agree that the majority of the 'critiques' have been concerning the communication (or lack thereof) and I do believe that much is justified. I also believe that open and honest dialogue is important in situations like this, and everyone has the right to express their opinion(s) in hopefully the least combative way possible (also, whether that opinion be good, bad, or indifferent).

I do think backers/supporters/interested parties of the game are allowed to be upset by this. I'm not as invested in COT as I am in finding some way to get COH back, so I don't have thaaaaat much skin in the game... but I can sympathize with the disappointment.

...However, I will say this: from the beginning, the COT fan base should have anticipated things like this happening. And if you didn't anticipate it, then your expectations weren't realistic enough. Missing deadline goals (please note these are GOALS, not promises) is something that happens even when the team behind the title aren't all volunteer-based former gamers with other jobs and personal lives and what-not. This was an insanely tall order that Missing World's Media undertook - not just because they wanted to, but because the community wanted them to, too. They aren't PR mavens or communication aficionados, either. They're learning as they go. This is their first time doing something of this caliber, at this rate, and with this much pressure on their shoulders.

They're doing as good a job as they know how, and it's not their problem that that's not enough for you. No one held a gun to your head and told you to donate to the kickstarter. You're not at a restaurant, and they're not your waiter. Also, they hear you loud and clear. You're not being ignored or shunned or silenced. They're acknowledging the issue, and they're treating this much like a lesson learned. Put down the pitchforks (yes, it's getting to a pitchfork-level in here).

Ok, folks. Lets not let emotions take over here. All points of view are appreciated. Not pausing or locking the thread at this time but, please keep it civil.

Dark Cleric wrote:

It is true. The quote you quoted is one of the very few I said that there were. I didnt say there were none.

In the last sentence of your post, you said "...but on these forums there really isn't anyone saying that this shouldn't be taking so long." I was giving you an example of someone whom said as much directly in this thread, because you didn't seem to be certain one way or the other (because you started out the post acknowledging that there were 'very very few people'.) So, that was confusing to me.

Dark Cleric wrote:

And to your last paragraph...what? I NEVER said they arent doing as well I think they should. Or that they arent dedicated. Or that they arent working enough or anything related to the quality of their work. I also never said their effort isnt enough for me. If you had ever read any of my comments I actually said I thought they should take December off and take a break to be with their families and just relax. You're the kind of person that thinks that because someone says their communication could be improved they must think that the devs just suck and are doing a terrible job. WRONG. get out of here with your baseless assumptions jagoff.

...Where in the hell did you see me specify this directly at you? This was an observation I was making generally. Never once did I single you out, nor directly accuse you of any of this. The only sentiment I was bringing to your attention was that there were posters even in this direct thread that were NOT only expressing concerns related to communication. That's it.

Please read what people post more thoroughly before going on the attack.

Ultimate15 wrote:

Dark Cleric wrote:

It is true. The quote you quoted is one of the very few I said that there were. I didnt say there were none.

In the last sentence of your post, you said "...but on these forums there really isn't anyone saying that this shouldn't be taking so long." I was giving you an example of someone whom said as much directly in this thread, because you didn't seem to be certain one way or the other (because you started out the post acknowledging that there were 'very very few people'.) So, that was confusing to me.

Dark Cleric wrote:

And to your last paragraph...what? I NEVER said they arent doing as well I think they should. Or that they arent dedicated. Or that they arent working enough or anything related to the quality of their work. I also never said their effort isnt enough for me. If you had ever read any of my comments I actually said I thought they should take December off and take a break to be with their families and just relax. You're the kind of person that thinks that because someone says their communication could be improved they must think that the devs just suck and are doing a terrible job. WRONG. get out of here with your baseless assumptions jagoff.

...Where in the hell did you see me specify this directly at you? This was an observation I was making generally. Never once did I single you out, nor directly accuse you of any of this. The only sentiment I was bringing to your attention was that there were posters even in this direct thread that were NOT only expressing concerns related to communication. That's it.

Please read what people post more thoroughly before going on the attack.

You quoted my comment and proceeded to use words like 'you' and 'your' so of course it came across like it was meant for me personally. But since it apparently wasnt I apologize. I get that I'm sandpaper to most people on these forums but it annoys me when people think I am dissing the devs or think they suck at their MWM jobs when I am actually thrilled about this project and think the stuff they've actually shown us is top notch. Yes I have my critiques and probably word them too strongly, but I'd buy any of the team a drink if I ever met them in person. I want this project to succeed, badly.

Ultimate15 wrote:

...However, I will say this: from the beginning, the COT fan base should have anticipated things like this happening. And if you didn't anticipate it, then your expectations weren't realistic enough.

We did anticipate things like this happening. That’s why up to now there hasn’t been too much backlash when promises weren’t kept or goals weren’t reached. The backers here, and the fans, have given a lot of leeway to the development team. But there is no excuse when you’re told by those same developers that things will happen by a certain date and then right at the last second they don’t happen. Not to mention multiple times, based on posts in this thread, the left hand doesn’t appear to know what the right hand is doing. It looks like there are different narratives to explain the reasons behind them not meeting the fall 2018 date. They seem to be figuring things out in these threads instead of behind closed doors.That is not something you can anticipate, hence the uproar.

Ultimate15 wrote:

This was an insanely tall order that Missing World's Media undertook - not just because they wanted to, but because the community wanted them to, too. They aren't PR mavens or communication aficionados, either. They're learning as they go. This is their first time doing something of this caliber, at this rate, and with this much pressure on their shoulders.

This might of been accepted in year one or year two. But we are just about 5 1/2 years deep into this development cycle now. These kind of mistakes should not still be happening. Neither the devs, nor all the apologists that they have on these forums, can keep using this same old excuse of “[i]we’ve never done this before we’re learning as we go[/i]”. Not this far into things. It doesn’t fly anymore. What does it say about the professionalism of this group? If they can’t handle living up to their self imposed timelines, are they truly any better at handling the money they’ve been given? Or the resources? What about all of the kickstarter goals that were reached during the fundraising? When it gets to crunch time are we going to get more excuses as to why this or that won’t be implemented at launch?

Ultimate15 wrote:

They're doing as good a job as they know how, and it's not their problem that that's not enough for you. No one held a gun to your head and told you to donate to the kickstarter. You're not at a restaurant, and they're not your waiter.

And no one held a gun to their head and told them to take on this project. I don’t subscribe to this line of reasoning at all. In fact it’s getting really tiresome to see people saying “[i]the devs don’t owe you anything[/i]”. You know, if they were Electronic Arts or Rockstar Games, I would agree with you. But these people are almost entirely being funded by us. So yes they do owe us. They owe us [b][i]everything[/i][/b]. Maybe not me or you as individuals but as a collective - all of us together - they do owe us.

Zerohour wrote:

We did anticipate things like this happening. That’s why up to now there hasn’t been too much backlash when promises weren’t kept or goals weren’t reached. The backers here, and the fans, have given a lot of leeway to the development team. But there is no excuse when you’re told by those same developers that things will happen by a certain date and then right at the last second they don’t happen. Not to mention multiple times, based on posts in this thread, the left hand doesn’t appear to know what the right hand is doing. It looks like there are different narratives to explain the reasons behind them not meeting the fall 2018 date. They seem to be figuring things out in these threads instead of behind closed doors.That is not something you can anticipate, hence the uproar.

I don't know if you've only been getting your perspective on what backlash or non-backlash the COT team has been receiving via this forum, but I've definitely seen considerable backlash both on this forum and in other places (most of the nasty stuff comes their way via Facebook, which is a warzone in and of itself). I don't think we should pretend that everything has been hunky-dory in regards to how the community at large has been responding/reacting to the development of this game - and I'm not even suggesting that people's complaints aren't justified. But, I don't think your observation of 'there hasn't been too much backlash...' is fully accurate.

Look - if you want to maintain that this is such an inexcusable set-back, then you're entitled to your opinion and you have every right to express it. But, you can absolutely anticipate ALL types of things happening if you just look at the full/big picture. They're piecing all of this together for the first time - this is what happens when you're literally creating a game from the ground up (even more so if it's via the efforts of volunteer designers/developers/etc.). There WILL be issues with miscommunication, meeting deadlines, screw up's that happen at the 11th hour that throw off the entire projected timeline, coding problems, sustainability issues, personal lives, etc. This is not a seasoned studio with a bunch of other gaming titles under their belt. These types of problems have a really nasty snowball/domino effect, too - one thing can lead to 1293408423 other things. If you didn't think that issues like this would arise and this wouldn't be a 'learn as you go' process, then you weren't being realistic - that's all I'm saying.

Zerohour wrote:

This might of been accepted in year one or year two. But we are just about 5 1/2 years deep into this development cycle now. These kind of mistakes should not still be happening. Neither the devs, nor all the apologists that they have on these forums, can keep using this same old excuse of “[i]we’ve never done this before we’re learning as we go[/i]”. Not this far into things. It doesn’t fly anymore. What does it say about the professionalism of this group? If they can’t handle living up to their self imposed timelines, are they truly any better at handling the money they’ve been given? Or the resources? What about all of the kickstarter goals that were reached during the fundraising? When it gets to crunch time are we going to get more excuses as to why this or that won’t be implemented at launch?

Even 5 1/2 years into the development of a game you can run into new issues that you've never had to address before (such as your primary data repository suddenly shutting down). That's literally the whole idea behind 'learning as you go', especially if you're doing something for the first time. Fresh problems will arise that you will have to address and fix to the best of your ability - in that given moment - for the first time. No offense meant, but who are you to say that ‘these kind of mistakes should not still be happening’? You seem to have a lot of familiarity with designing a game from scratch to be able to know what 'should' or 'shouldn't' be happening at any stage of the development process. I'm sure many of the COT devs - whom are actually in the trenches, working to bring this game to fruition - would disagree with that assertion on a multitude of levels.

...And I'm opting not to address your implication that they're somehow ill-equipped to handle the money they've been donated because they couldn't reach some of their production goals. Nope! Not touching that one.

Zerohour wrote:

And no one held a gun to their head and told them to take on this project. I don’t subscribe to this line of reasoning at all. In fact it’s getting really tiresome to see people saying “[i]the devs don’t owe you anything[/i]”. You know, if they were Electronic Arts or Rockstar Games, I would agree with you. But these people are almost entirely being funded by us. So yes they do owe us. They owe us [b][i]everything[/i][/b]. Maybe not me or you as individuals but as a collective - all of us together - they do owe us.

Never once did I say that they didn't owe us anything. There is obviously a product they need to deliver on, which was the reason behind creating the kickstarter in the first place. What I said was that while this was something they voluntarily took on, they did it because people WANTED them to do it - and you shouldn't forget that. They didn't just do it for some frivolous reason out of nowhere. I wanted them to do it. You wanted them to do it. No one made them do it, but they did it in good faith because they wanted to fill the void in our community after COH was shut down - and in return, the community donated to the cause in good faith. However, they don't owe it to you to complete the product in the timeframe and/or manner in which you want them to just because you donated. That was what I meant when I said that you're not at a restaurant, and they're not your waiter. They don't owe it to you to meet your standard. They have their own standard, and they'll put their best foot forward in doing the best job that they know how.

And if you continue to look at this through the lense of 'they owe us everything', then I promise you you'll be even more disappointed with this process then you clearly already are.

This group of comments is why I decided I needed a break from the forums ~-~