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Discuss: Where We Are: End Of Year 2018

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warcabbit
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Discuss: Where We Are: End Of Year 2018

Day by day, week by week, we're getting closer.

You can find the link to the latest update here

Project Lead

Phantom meeow
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Awesome, keep at it and make

Awesome, keep at it and make a great as you guys can!

desviper
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So.....is it official? Can we

So.....is it official? Can we comment? :p

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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desviper
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Well, I'll comment :p I

Well, I'll comment :p I complained of the looks of the NPCs, but once i read they were also Chargen, I'm good :)

Really impressed by the procedural generator! It's a pretty convincing office! The clutter really sells it.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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TitansCity
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I am really really enjoying

I am really really enjoying those videos ! I can't wait to play City of Titans now :)
I hope people of your team are going well :/ this is more important than the game. Keep the good work guys !

So, you didn't give another period for the alpha for the backers ? is it not set up for now ? the second chance and the website are also delayed ?

Brutum
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Very disapointed.

Very disappointed.

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Thanks for the update. Gives

Thanks for the update. Gives me hope well have at least 2 new homes now!

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I love seeing how everything

I love seeing how everything is coming along and remains familiar yet new. (Looking forward to when the character model makes some more progress and doesn't look so plasticky.) Those procedurally generated maps will certainly keep us from going into auto-pilot on missions when we're on our 20th character some years from now. Can you tell us roughly what percentage of mission maps will be PG versus hand-made? Also, when the rules are putting together a map, are they working from the ground up, or are they assembling a collection of hand-made rooms? From your comments about sticky notes etc it sounds more like the former, which would be pretty amazing.

I'd also like to compliment you on another excellently-crafted bit of communication: both good news and bad, with clear explanations of the achieved milestones we should appreciate as well as the always-much-appreciated identification of the stuff we shouldn't focus on.

However, the fact that there was another crisis immediately after the motherboard incident that occurred some months ago, yet we're finding out about it only today (on the last day of the original Fall 2018 target) causes me to pause in concern. I think you would have done yourselves and the community a service had you let us know about this when it happened and pushed the release date back at the time instead of rushing to try to meet the date anyway. Honestly, we understand that bad stuff happens and that you all have your personal lives to live. As much as we want to play the game, we understand if delays have to occur. Missing the date is really no big deal. But expectations could have been managed a lot better on this simply by being a bit more open with us. I understand you still had hopes you would make the 2018 date, but even on that I'm concerned about what issues may have been caused in the rush to hit that target. You could have had more breathing space and given the player base more time to come to terms with the delay. Instead there was a lot of silence from MWM, and into that void came a lot of speculation, which is never good for any project.

OK, I've said my piece. Given that we don't have any more hard target dates in the future timeline, this shouldn't come up again, but I would recommend a little more attention on managing expectations. Having said that, let me just express my huge gratitude to MWM for continuing this project year on year, and for the progress you folks have already made -- all in your spare time for free. My recommendation to you now that the delay has been acknowledged is to take some well-earned time off for whatever holidays you may or may not celebrate this time of year, and come back at this in the new year well-rested and refreshed. We'll all still be here, rarin' to go.

Happy Holidays and a Heroic/Villainous New Year to all!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'll preface my post by

I'll preface my post by saying that I was not an original KS backer and have only been following the game for a couple of years and only pretty closely for the last couple of months.

Firstly, thank you for the update. Recognizing that many of us were clinging onto the December 21st "last day of fall" timeline, it's at least nice to receive something. It's obviously not the result we were hoping for, but I'm sure that sentiment applies to you all on the dev team as well. The reality of this being a small volunteer effort means that life will do what it wants to. The personal issues that you shared in the update are proof of that, and I hope that you are all doing well.

I'm sure there will be many people who are disappointed with this news and will put blame on MWM for not making their own deadline. Many of these community members have invested time and money into watching this project grow and expand, so it's reasonable to have that response. The reality is that all we can do is continue to watch, wait patiently, and provide support to those working on this project. In my opinion, MWM is doing a great job at keeping their spirits up, continuing to trek on, and letting us have some snapshots into their world every now and then. I'm sure we would all love to see more than we're getting, but that will come in time. Soon enough, we'll have access to the chargen, the game will launch, and all of the energy put into this project from all sides will pay off.

Treed
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Looking forward to when the character model makes some more progress and doesn't look so plasticky.

It's funny you should say that. I had the same discussion and it turns out that that cape was given the "Thick Vinyl" material property in the character creator when this character was designed. So if you think the character looks plastic that's probably a good validation that a cape made too look like plastic actually does. If there are other aspects about the character you think look plastic, please share your opinions. We are aware that this has been a recurring comment and want to make sure we aren't missing anything ourselves.

And thank you for your well wishes. This has been a hectic but rewarding year and next year is only going to be moreso.

Bringing City of Titans to all the people.

Public Relations Team

rookslide
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The progress is great!

The progress is great! Frankly it looks ready for alpha in most respects to my eyes which I know don’t see everything.

I agree that the communication should have come sooner but I do understand the hardships ya’all are facing.

I was in a pileup on the freeway myself a year ago tomorrow and it took about three or four months to recover. Also have a couple friends and a sister that have developed cancer as well. So I feel for all of you that are going through life’s perils yet still doing all you can for this cause!

It is slightly disappointing but you know, you came through honestly (if a bit late) with a progress report that is very nice and some solid reasons for the setbacks.

There will be naysayers as per the usual but I myself can live with the setbacks for now and still look forward to the eventual release and what tomorrow brings!

Thank you for the update, Merry Christmas, and God bless every one.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Cinnder
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Treed wrote:
Treed wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Looking forward to when the character model makes some more progress and doesn't look so plasticky.

It's funny you should say that. I had the same discussion and it turns out that that cape was given the "Thick Vinyl" material property in the character creator when this character was designed. So if you think the character looks plastic that's probably a good validation that a cape made too look like plastic actually does. If there are other aspects about the character you think look plastic, please share your opinions. We are aware that this has been a recurring comment and want to make sure we aren't missing anything ourselves.

Ha! Well, in that case, well done on that cape! :-)

While the cape is the most obvious example, the skin and cloth on the hero as well as Santa and the elf still make them look more like toys than I expected from the texture examples for costume pieces we've seen in previous posts.

Spurn all ye kindle.

rookslide
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Pearly wrote:
Pearly wrote:

I'll preface my post by saying that I was not an original KS backer and have only been following the game for a couple of years and only pretty closely for the last couple of months.

Firstly, thank you for the update. Recognizing that many of us were clinging onto the December 21st "last day of fall" timeline, it's at least nice to receive something. It's obviously not the result we were hoping for, but I'm sure that sentiment applies to you all on the dev team as well. The reality of this being a small volunteer effort means that life will do what it wants to. The personal issues that you shared in the update are proof of that, and I hope that you are all doing well.

I'm sure there will be many people who are disappointed with this news and will put blame on MWM for not making their own deadline. Many of these community members have invested time and money into watching this project grow and expand, so it's reasonable to have that response. The reality is that all we can do is continue to watch, wait patiently, and provide support to those working on this project. In my opinion, MWM is doing a great job at keeping their spirits up, continuing to trek on, and letting us have some snapshots into their world every now and then. I'm sure we would all love to see more than we're getting, but that will come in time. Soon enough, we'll have access to the chargen, the game will launch, and all of the energy put into this project from all sides will pay off.

Well said.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

desviper
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I'm assuming we're still on

I'm assuming we're still on pre-alpha skin textures, as has been said before

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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Cinnder
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm assuming we're still on pre-alpha skin textures, as has been said before

Yep, I'm hoping that's the case also, which is why I said I'm looking forward to when the avatar makes more progress.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Development Hell is a saying

Development Hell is a saying because it's real. But I believe the Titans Devs will overcome.

Your work and sacrifices are recognized and appreciated.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

CallmeBlue
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Well, first off, thank you

Well, first off, thank you for doing what you do, and for the progress that you've made. Please don't get discouraged over random mishaps. Pulling off the first quality MMO built on a shoestring budget will be a tale for the record books!

That said, I do hope that you find it easier to relay the current state of affairs to us in the future. :)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm assuming we're still on pre-alpha skin textures, as has been said before

Yep, I'm hoping that's the case also, which is why I said I'm looking forward to when the avatar makes more progress.

There are better skin textures.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
angelo.pampalone
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REally appreciated update.

REally appreciated update. While I can't wait to gram the game (or the character creator) ... take a break, enjoy the holidays and came back to CoT refreshed.

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Main: Grattolomeo (in pic), Hekathonkire

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It's a really good news.

It's a really good news.
Those videos make me happy. I really enjoy the background and this is very promising.

And finaly, as say Tannim, there are better skins textures and this plastic skin was the only negative point to me so... all is good.

Thanks you MWM.

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Dear Santa,

Dear Santa,

I thank you for the update. I hope all is well, there at the north pole. I know how hard it is to have so many elvish hands in the toy box. Just keep on working, take care of the elves, the reindeer and Mrs Clause. I and my brothers and sisters have plenty of time on our hands. and We will be good boys and girls and wait patiently til our Presents are presented to us. there is eggnog and cookies by the fireplace, and a nice warm blanket. rest a little while. then back to the grindstone. Love Little Sirnom.

ps: IRL: you peeps are doing great thank you for the heads up, keep up the great work. remember to step back and get a view of the picture, and drive thru.

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I understand the need of a

I understand the need of a video in that update, so to not leave us with just words or empty promises, but personally I don't feel enough interest in quests-related videos atm, because I know the only thing coming soon is the character creator.

After all, we were all kept up to date daily on your progress (even if we may lack some details) and I think I already know your "potential", so a single good/bad animation doesn't change that at all.
I fast checked the videos to get a more precise idea of where you stand, but that's all.

The procedural map one was more interesting but pre-alpha parts like those are going to get so many changes till they're actually playable by us that it's pretty useless to even check those now imho, my attention now is fully on the avatar builder so I go back in waiting news related to it ^^.

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I like to imagine that

I like to imagine that procedural is the superhero looking for the bathroom key.

Go back to the big desk! I know there has to be one there!

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Launch Delay

Launch Delay
This is difficult to discuss as it requires a nuance I'm worried I won't be able to express. There are two issues closely related here but are not fully synonymous. The first is user-expectations of the release date, the second is user-expectations of that release date set by the MWM team. I've made it clear in multiple forums that I'm very patient towards the former - this is a huge project and its going to take time to do it right. If the 2018 announcement had not been made and Issue 0 slipped a few months I'd not blinked an eye. If it needs to be late next year before the avatar creator is ready for alpha testing then so be it.

But that darn release date... it was plastered everywhere and now we're dealing with its expectations. 2018 never should have been announced unless that date was something approaching cosmic certitude. For my own work projects we'd not mentioned a year unless we were looking at Q2 as the likely release timeframe, conservatively. The goal should always be to underpromise and overdeliver but here we have a clear case of overpromise and underdeliver, from a PR perspective not making that date is a complete failure that is going to haunt the project. Again, I know delays happen. Either pad out timelines to allow for them, or do not state timeframes at all if there is too much variability to account for.

I think what concerns me the most is that I've been somewhat appointed by a number of fellow ex-CoHers to keep track of CoT's progress and I'd shared with them MWM's 2018 date, and going back to them with word of that promise having fallen off is not going to be a good look. I'm not going anywhere, I'm sticking with the project and will continue to support it however I can, but once the CoT team takes on the appearance of unreliability that is going to be a reputation hard to shake back off.

Combat System
Well, I was hoping there would be something to show off here as a "consolation prize" but only a quick blurb. The lack of an example now has me worried that the internal perception is that its not far enough along to even have an alpha-level videoclip.

Santa's Mission

  • Cape is looking good and has a nice shine
  • Face is looking much better than the barbiedoll-esque examples we'd previously seen.
  • Map details are nice. Really like the statues, they just work.
  • Yeah, as mentioned the leaping really is off.
  • Wish we'd start to see more examples of some UI work done instead of placeholder interfaces.
  • mission system looks good, I like Santa hopping at your acceptance
  • Is that a snowfall aura I'm seeing? needs work - too static, needs swirling
  • superspeed needs some visual effects to accompany it to make it look more like speed and less like time-dilation
  • the Christmas scene is beautiful and its almost heartbreaking taken with the Issue 0 delay. Maybe next year!

Office Map
The concept of procedural generated maps is very cool, don't get me wrong, but presenting it to us visually doesn't add much for us viewers. Think this could be better served with a lengthy textual explanation of the work then very short clips showing some different generations. Also, that one office desk was massive!

Costumes
Don't think I'd seen the "yellowjacket" costume pieces before, they look very nice! Already plotting alt character designs using 'em....

Delays
They happen and yeah it sucks when forward progress seems to turn into multiple stages of steps-backward. To all MWM members, we understand. Please dont confuse our impatience with ingratitude, the very reason the impatience exists is from the promising work you've shown so far that we want more. From a life-altering injury my better half suffered on Christmas Eve 2017 with multiple surgeries over the past several months, I'm right there with you saying that 2018 was been an absolute disaster, a slow-motion trainwreck. Not sure what we did to irk Baby New Year 2018 but I'm so looking forward to the Baby 2019 successor!

Planet10
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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

This mission video was written by GeeksGoneBad, our best technical artist. It’s meant to show multiple choices and different mission ends - as well as instancing into new maps. Santa’s back from last year, but we’ve got no Baby New Year - you’ll have to deal with an elf instead. That’s acceptable, right? (And yes, that elf, like everyone else in the map, comes from the character creator. Look at those ears!)
And we’re very glad to present to you the first procedurally generated mission map. This is based on the ‘Office’ theme, and every element in it has been placed by rules, not by hand. If you look carefully in the cubicles, every desk is slightly different - even the post-its are in different locations.

(What to ignore: The final animation setup is in a different project: the jump is missing essential infrastructure to smooth it, so it cycles in a loop. The dialogue boxes themselves are slated for replacement, but we’ve got a system capable of handling branching decisions now. Also, the foliage jumps into view far too close to the camera. Part of this is not having a megafast computer to record on - recording takes a lot of horsepower. The second video has a bit of lag. We’re working on it.)

I would suggest that you copy & paste this information into the YouTube videos themselves (and elaborate a bit too). Not everyone that is interested in CoT will navigate to these forums to dive into X number of threads to see what is really going on. They are just going to comfortably crap all over whatever they think is wrong in the comments section. Do yourselves a favor and provide contextual information so they understand what they are viewing.

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

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I sent in my KS backing

I sent in my KS backing donation with no expectations.

I am not disappointed or surprised about the delay. I am grateful for all the perseverance you and your team has shown. This kind of stick-to-it-iveness points the way to success. And, as long as the towel isn't thrown in, WILL [eventually] lead to success. All these tribulations are learning opportunities.

Keep on keepin' on! :)

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I agree that the information

I agree with the others who've mentioned that those technical problems should have been shared when they occurred. I get the temptation not to share bad news unless you have to, but now we've been left with this Fall 2018 expectation for months only to learn that you can't meet your target. It would have been better to know that you've had another setback and that it will make it much more difficult to hit the Fall 2018 deadline. As Cinnder mentioned, managing expectations can mitigate a lot of frustrations.

Onto the good news! I'm glad to learn that the cape is vinyl, because I was thinking that it doesn't look like ideal cape material. I was surprised to see how much it changed in appearance based on the lighting. Is that working as intended or is it exaggerated to showcases the lighting effects? I'd have guessed he'd changed his cape when he popped into Santa's little hut. I don't know that I'm in love with the running and jumping animations, but I'm happy that they don't stand out in a "that looks weird/clumsy/huh" manner.

I'm definitely looking forward to the more finalized versions of the character textures and animations.

Yay office! I miss the ridiculous offices from CoH. 'course I much prefer that to a more realistic setup in which everything would be super cramped. That desk, tho'! That sucker must be at least four and a half feet tall. I'd like to second the question about the PG maps. Will most of instanced mission maps be created on demand like that?

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I'm looking forward to seeing

I'm looking forward to seeing how it all looks with decent animations.

And yes, like was said in other threads... More communication is good. Give us the bad news when it happens so expectations can be tempered.

Necro Mastermind.

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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

Very disappointed.

So are we.
Basically, rebuilding our network environment took all the people we have who could have been working on the account system, web site, store, patcher, and all the little details needed that a MMO needs and a standalone game does not. Sure, things are better designed now, but we lost months, and while we pushed as hard as we could, we just couldn't make Fall.

Project Lead

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

General production comments:
1.) In future videos, spend a little more time panning/zooming around the character (and under better lighting conditions) so people can see the costume, body shape, stance, materials, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be at the beginning of the video, just as long as it is there to be ogled.
2.) A vast majority of the video is spent with us staring at the character's back & cape. Make the costume a little more visually interesting. A design on the cape, maybe give it an asymmetric shape or something. Also, do not use that material again for a long time. If there is something really cool about the costume that gets predominantly obscured, people will look a lot harder at it when the cape goes whooshing to a side.
3.) The music (and all sound) just abruptly stops at 2:25 and just turns back on when the zone loads. If that is in-game music (I assume it is), loop it or fade it or something.
4.) The instance loads are jarring. There is nothing to indicate that you are transitioning to another zone. The game just freezes while it loads. If I didn't see the mouse cursor move I might have assumed that the video froze (i.e. my internet crapped out or something).
5.) The detail inside Santa's Lair is pretty impressive. The light switches, electrical sockets, door knobs and the like seem to be at the appropriate heights and positions for a person of Santa's size. The furniture looks like is the correct size and the room has the right fit (windows too). The lighting effects (lamp shades & fireplace) seem reasonable. All around good job. There was enough detail that I accepted its presentation as 'realistic' and did not give it another thought.
6.) At the 4:17 & 4:25 marks, the cape momentum swishes it in front of the character. If it is attached to the collar, it looks like it is behaving strangely.
7.) If you are going to showcase multi-path missions, show a second run of that mission with a different character and choose different options.
8.) Add contextual information to the notes section of the YouTube video so people understand what they are looking at, what part(s) are to be highlighted as significant, and what does not need attention (because it isn't in the build or whatever).
9.) The lines in the concrete shaking at 1:07 is unsettling. Is that a rendering issue? A capture card issue? A map issue?
10.) In relation to point #2 above, the camera perspective makes it feel like we the viewer are five feet behind the character for the duration of the video. When talking to the mission NPCs you correctly rotated our view so we could see the NPC during the interaction. It would be nice to see the camera zoomed back a little further sometimes, or did a right click camera rotation to change the point of view, or zoomed into first person. Overall that is likely going to be the perspective that the user will experience most of the time, but give the unfamiliar viewer a little more to chew on.

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

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Are there any plans to make

Are there any plans to make the Missions Easier find for People with Vision Problems? An Arrow or light something to show them how to get there,? Might be the wrong thread, But Love what you have done so far keep it up.

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Do we have a new estimated

Do we have a new estimated time of arrival? We know the delays are estimated at "over three months" for the repo issues, but then there's all the other stuff. And I'm not sure if we should be counting from the beginning of October or the end of December.

In the City of Titans Fan Discord,

Tannim222 wrote:

Second Chance has to happen in the near future.

But how near? And is that an absolute, as in Tannin can't see any reason it won't, or an imperative?

Add me to the list of people who think you should have let us know about the continuing repo problems back whenever "we're pretty sure we can release Issue 0 before winter" dropped down to "we hope we can release Issue 0 before winter." But this update goes a long way towards putting you guys back on the "Nice" list.

Keep plugging away, and please let us know what you can, as you can.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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The one thing that really wow

The one thing that really wow’ed me was the inside of Santa’s pad. That place was gorgeous.

I’m glad you fixed auras and we no longer have people standing on campfires.

warcabbit
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I'm really glad people aren't

I'm really glad people aren't upset a certain squat guy in a diaper was missing.
Not that we couldn't make him, it's just sometimes, you really don't want to.

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Steamtank
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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
Brutum wrote:

Very disappointed.

So are we.
Basically, rebuilding our network environment took all the people we have who could have been working on the account system, web site, store, patcher, and all the little details needed that a MMO needs and a standalone game does not. Sure, things are better designed now, but we lost months, and while we pushed as hard as we could, we just couldn't make Fall.

Learn from Blizzard. Don't have a "failure" and go silent.
Also learn from GGG...... talk nonstop about whats going right and whats going wrong.

GGG as an excellent game because they have nurtured their player base. They don't go quiet until after the fact if an expectation doesn't get met.
Blizzard is in full melt down mode with only Classic WoW seeming to be avoiding mass chaos and disappointment.

Go read the Diablo 3 forums. Blizzard promised more communication months ago and hasn't actually said a word since except to send a poor CM to post in a question about their new season thread.

You currently have something that once lost is very very hard to get back, loyalty. A lot of people have super high hopes, with moderate actual expectations for your game and have stuck around for YEARS. You arn't going to scare those people away by saying "Hey we found that the new part needed a new location and a new network to go with it which requires us to put the people in charge of getting this from internal alpha to a state those outside the company can log in onto the network issue. This is a really big delay (3-4 months). So here is a video on minion death animations, an example of a few mogul buildings, and please go to this link to vote on which of these 2 UI elements you like better for the character creator. Next month we will have some of our non network related artists host a live stream where they try to make the character you describe in the forums, please post in xyz thread for a chance to have your character created by one of our graphic artists."
Boom done, people get time to process that an issue came up, they also get something to make them happy now... and something to look forward to and interact with in the near future that is doable. You keep your most important asset intact: Loyalty.

Rooting for you guys and gals, don't go silent on us. Most of us are past the point of needing instant gratification, we just want honest open communication.

Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.

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I hate to say I told you so,

I hate to say I told you so, but it seems my countdown post is no longer a tinfoil hat conspiracy thread after all.

I appreciate all the hardship you guys are going through, sometimes life is tough. That said, given what you've shown here, and the way it has been communicated, I am skeptical that you are ready for a second chance round of funding. Something dramatic needs to change in how the team operates, and how things are being developed, for me to have faith in the game. Get your priorities in order. This is the longest running game in development in the CoH successor space, and it is the only one that has yet to allow players to log in in some way. Think about that, and ask yourselves what is going on that has lead to that situation. We expected to be playing the game months ago, if not in a fully expanded form, then at least in a paragon chat kind of way. We were lead to believe that beyond a shadow of a doubt, through thick and thin, it would happen. That right there is probably the biggest problem, not the failure to meet a deadline, but the adamanent claim that you would meet said deadline, when it was never even possible. It's just poor management and poor PR. As I've said so many times before, I really think you are underestimating the value of good management and good PR. That is showing through loud and clear here.

I don't know what more to say, except that I wish you guys the best of luck. It seems you'll need it.

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Steamtank wrote:
Steamtank wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
Brutum wrote:

Very disappointed.

So are we.
Basically, rebuilding our network environment took all the people we have who could have been working on the account system, web site, store, patcher, and all the little details needed that a MMO needs and a standalone game does not. Sure, things are better designed now, but we lost months, and while we pushed as hard as we could, we just couldn't make Fall.

Learn from Blizzard. Don't have a "failure" and go silent.
Also learn from GGG...... talk nonstop about whats going right and whats going wrong.

GGG as an excellent game because they have nurtured their player base. They don't go quiet until after the fact if an expectation doesn't get met.
Blizzard is in full melt down mode with only Classic WoW seeming to be avoiding mass chaos and disappointment.

Go read the Diablo 3 forums. Blizzard promised more communication months ago and hasn't actually said a word since except to send a poor CM to post in a question about their new season thread.

You currently have something that once lost is very very hard to get back, loyalty. A lot of people have super high hopes, with moderate actual expectations for your game and have stuck around for YEARS. You arn't going to scare those people away by saying "Hey we found that the new part needed a new location and a new network to go with it which requires us to put the people in charge of getting this from internal alpha to a state those outside the company can log in onto the network issue. This is a really big delay (3-4 months). So here is a video on minion death animations, an example of a few mogul buildings, and please go to this link to vote on which of these 2 UI elements you like better for the character creator. Next month we will have some of our non network related artists host a live stream where they try to make the character you describe in the forums, please post in xyz thread for a chance to have your character created by one of our graphic artists."
Boom done, people get time to process that an issue came up, they also get something to make them happy now... and something to look forward to and interact with in the near future that is doable. You keep your most important asset intact: Loyalty.

Rooting for you guys and gals, don't go silent on us. Most of us are past the point of needing instant gratification, we just want honest open communication.

Damn... You could get me hooked with that one.
But yeah, I agree. I don't think the majority of the community would kill you, if you mentioned and explained it before. I mean, I'm new and I instantly got in love with you guys. I won't ditch you, just because you got a setback. Because that can happen and even bigger companies with higher budgets must live with such issues.
Sure I'm not super happy with this situation. However, I understand that and I know you won't throw the towel into the bucket.

The idea of bringing bad news is scary because of the backlash, but if the communication is well done, then you don't need to worry about it.

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Steamtank wrote:
Steamtank wrote:

You currently have something that once lost is very very hard to get back, loyalty. A lot of people have super high hopes, with moderate actual expectations for your game and have stuck around for YEARS. You arn't going to scare those people away by saying "Hey we found that the new part needed a new location and a new network to go with it which requires us to put the people in charge of getting this from internal alpha to a state those outside the company can log in onto the network issue. This is a really big delay (3-4 months). So here is a video on minion death animations, an example of a few mogul buildings, and please go to this link to vote on which of these 2 UI elements you like better for the character creator. Next month we will have some of our non network related artists host a live stream where they try to make the character you describe in the forums, please post in xyz thread for a chance to have your character created by one of our graphic artists."
Boom done, people get time to process that an issue came up, they also get something to make them happy now... and something to look forward to and interact with in the near future that is doable. You keep your most important asset intact: Loyalty.

Rooting for you guys and gals, don't go silent on us. Most of us are past the point of needing instant gratification, we just want honest open communication.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I've been a loyal supporter for more than 5 years and I don't like to have that loyalty...well...shaken might be too strong a word...perhaps tested would be better.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Setbacks happen. I can deal

Setbacks happen. I can deal with them. I am however enthusiastic with the progress displayed. Keep plugging away guys!
I am just waiting for the kickstarter to kick in.

Dark Cleric
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Looks like everything has

Looks like everything has pretty much been said already.

Everything in the videos is pre alpha so we could nit-pick for days but there's no point as it's all going to change. However, it looks like a solid base to grow from.

Enough IMO has been said on communication... they've heard us so let's see if anything changes.

And to all the other fans, I wouldn't hold them to the 3 month delay. After this, though, it probably won't matter as we likely won't get anymore timelines or dates to look forward to. They won't want this to happen again.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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dem1urge wrote:
dem1urge wrote:

I sent in my KS backing donation with no expectations.

I am not disappointed or surprised about the delay. I am grateful for all the perseverance you and your team has shown. This kind of stick-to-it-iveness points the way to success. And, as long as the towel isn't thrown in, WILL [eventually] lead to success. All these tribulations are learning opportunities.

Keep on keepin' on! :)

This about sums it up for me.

But I also agree here...

Darth Fez wrote:

I agree with the others who've mentioned that those technical problems should have been shared when they occurred. I get the temptation not to share bad news unless you have to, but now we've been left with this Fall 2018 expectation for months only to learn that you can't meet your target. It would have been better to know that you've had another setback and that it will make it much more difficult to hit the Fall 2018 deadline.

Get the information out asap and deal with the hurt feelings afterwards. Unfortunately, now, justified or not, there may be substantial, vocal suspicion raised with respect to any new commitments and target date(s) moving forward. You guys don't need that nonsense sucking all the air out of the room.

On the desk: Loved the wear and tear...and if that office map is in a state government building, the size of the desk was perfect.

Overall, I'm not terribly concerned with the "miss". You guys don't owe me anything, but effort, progress and "healthy failures", and I like the progress that you all have demonstrated to-date.
Stay focused. Keep the strain. Onward!

(Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative)

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Well. Okay. More

Well. Okay. More communication. We'll work on that.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

I'm really glad people aren't upset a certain squat guy in a diaper was missing.
Not that we couldn't make him, it's just sometimes, you really don't want to.

After running SO many Baby New Year missions, I don't blame you.

Actually I might blame you if you DID make a Baby New Year!

Dark Cleric
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Seriously it's a good sign no

Seriously it's a good sign no one is up in arms over the delay itself or the progress or, really, the state of the game. Just...finding out about a 3 month delay the day before the posted due date. But it's been acknowledged officially, thats at the very least a good sign.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Well, we had hopes of making

Well, we had hopes of making it up. Then we had things going wrong and we were trying to fix them. Then we were trying to make something nice, and...
Look, as late as October, we had pretty good hopes of getting something out. That bit where I brought Chargen out for someone to mess with at NYCC and on the 31st? We were hoping, two-three weeks and we'd start rolling something out.

But it didn't work out that way. Then time started moving REALLY FAST on us and also a guy hit me with his pickup and I got distracted for a bit.

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I am constantly surprised at

I am constantly surprised at the pills you guys continue to swallow. It's been more than 5 years of delays and disappointments, of being told "it's getting closer every day". We were promised...PROMISED...something tangible by fall of 2018. Hell, it was in the marketing. Then they come along on the last day of fall saying "haha sorry guys excuse x, y, z" and you're all like "oh hey no problem thanks for your hard work, when can I give you more money?" The animation is still wonky, the textures are completely off, the UI looks nowhere near ready. Even the cape looks strange.

What happened to at least getting the chargen to play with by the end of this year? That was pretty much set in stone AGES ago. And no one's even asking about that.

I don't post here very often anymore because my opinions don't jive with most of you all and I've had my hand slapped for it. And that's fine. But there has to come a point where at least some of you stop and think, what's going on here? When does the loyalty/patience/understanding run dry? And now complications are being withheld until the last possible second? We should be seeing way more by now than we have.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we had hopes of making it up. Then we had things going wrong and we were trying to fix them. Then we were trying to make something nice, and...
Look, as late as October, we had pretty good hopes of getting something out. That bit where I brought Chargen out for someone to mess with at NYCC and on the 31st? We were hoping, two-three weeks and we'd start rolling something out.

But it didn't work out that way. Then time started moving REALLY FAST on us and also a guy hit me with his pickup and I got distracted for a bit.

I had my 2015 camaro totaled out from under me that way back in April, no fun at all, It was a mess dealing with it. Hopefully things will go well and we will see things in a couple of months or so. I know that I am not upset, just anxious to see it come into being(so to speak). I figure you will release in mid Feb just as I leave on my cruise. its a conspiracy I tell you!

Kuraikari
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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I am constantly surprised at the pills you guys continue to swallow. It's been more than 5 years of delays and disappointments, of being told "it's getting closer every day". We were promised...PROMISED...something tangible by fall of 2018. Hell, it was in the marketing. Then they come along on the last day of fall saying "haha sorry guys excuse x, y, z" and you're all like "oh hey no problem thanks for your hard work, when can I give you more money?" The animation is still wonky, the textures are completely off, the UI looks nowhere near ready. Even the cape looks strange.

What happened to at least getting the chargen to play with by the end of this year? That was pretty much set in stone AGES ago. And no one's even asking about that.

I don't post here very often anymore because my opinions don't jive with most of you all and I've had my hand slapped for it. And that's fine. But there has to come a point where at least some of you stop and think, what's going on here? When does the loyalty/patience/understanding run dry? And now complications are being withheld until the last possible second? We should be seeing way more by now than we have.

I understand that bitterness of yours, but even if they promise you something, they are volunteers trying to lift a mammoths project. MMOs are the World class games to produce and most people they develope them with a big team full of full-time employees.
MWM is a volunteer team, their budget is getting flushed in toilets, because the costs are huge.

Sure communication sucked this time. But I and others know that setbacks are always possible and people can learn from them.
Sometimes it needs more than once to learn and even more to accept that you effed up.
We don't blame them, because we all are humans and humans are prown to make errors.

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Dark Cleric
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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I am constantly surprised at the pills you guys continue to swallow. It's been more than 5 years of delays and disappointments, of being told "it's getting closer every day". We were promised...PROMISED...something tangible by fall of 2018. Hell, it was in the marketing. Then they come along on the last day of fall saying "haha sorry guys excuse x, y, z" and you're all like "oh hey no problem thanks for your hard work, when can I give you more money?" The animation is still wonky, the textures are completely off, the UI looks nowhere near ready. Even the cape looks strange.

What happened to at least getting the chargen to play with by the end of this year? That was pretty much set in stone AGES ago. And no one's even asking about that.

I don't post here very often anymore because my opinions don't jive with most of you all and I've had my hand slapped for it. And that's fine. But there has to come a point where at least some of you stop and think, what's going on here? When does the loyalty/patience/understanding run dry? And now complications are being withheld until the last possible second? We should be seeing way more by now than we have.

Go take a peek at some other posts...its not just you.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Foradain
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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

What happened to at least getting the chargen to play with by the end of this year? That was pretty much set in stone AGES ago. And no one's even asking about that.

Before I pledged to the Kickstarter, I understood this to be a volunteer effort. Nobody is receiving a paycheck, their day jobs come first, and excrement occurs. This means that I do not take any future date to achieve a milestone as "set in stone" until the milestone is achieved.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
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If you can't see an image I've posted, please let me know!

Kid Rad
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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I am constantly surprised at the pills you guys continue to swallow. It's been more than 5 years of delays and disappointments, of being told "it's getting closer every day". We were promised...PROMISED...something tangible by fall of 2018. Hell, it was in the marketing. Then they come along on the last day of fall saying "haha sorry guys excuse x, y, z" and you're all like "oh hey no problem thanks for your hard work, when can I give you more money?" The animation is still wonky, the textures are completely off, the UI looks nowhere near ready. Even the cape looks strange.

What happened to at least getting the chargen to play with by the end of this year? That was pretty much set in stone AGES ago. And no one's even asking about that.

I don't post here very often anymore because my opinions don't jive with most of you all and I've had my hand slapped for it. And that's fine. But there has to come a point where at least some of you stop and think, what's going on here? When does the loyalty/patience/understanding run dry? And now complications are being withheld until the last possible second? We should be seeing way more by now than we have.

I'm convinced that there is not a single pill the true believers here will not swallow. If I had money in the game, I would have asked for a refund the second this update came out. How they continue to just have complete faith, despite the total lack of professionalism displayed by this team is beyond me.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we had hopes of making it up. Then we had things going wrong and we were trying to fix them. Then we were trying to make something nice, and...
Look, as late as October, we had pretty good hopes of getting something out. That bit where I brought Chargen out for someone to mess with at NYCC and on the 31st? We were hoping, two-three weeks and we'd start rolling something out.

But it didn't work out that way. Then time started moving REALLY FAST on us and also a guy hit me with his pickup and I got distracted for a bit.

Don't let Cabbit fool you. Up until LAST WEEK we were absolutely convinced that, despite everything, we'd be able to hit that deadline. Obviously, we didn't. We'll take what we've learned from this and keep moving forward. We'll also try harder to keep y'all up to date on things, since without you, there is no game.

Thanks for sticking with us.

MWM Editor- Public Relations Team-All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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I stopped posting for over

I stopped posting for over six months and just read the forums, once encouragement to use open and honest communication of current status and future plans...from multiple friendly sources...was met with silence (usually) or attempts to reason out why it was too difficult. To me, that emphasized the need for it to be greater than ever. Of course plans will change - we seem almost universally to expect and accept that. Of course a geographically-divided and unpaid team faces difficulties...which make project management and status tracking more critical than in a tight-knit and paid team. In light of the original community-driven nature and with no parent company or publisher enforcing secrecy, I saw great potential for anything resembling "project status" versus "goals" posted to a consistent place and in a timely / brief / plain manner for all those who care about this project's eventual success. It can really ease discussions and prevent last-minute negative surprises, both in terms of when and what is being released.

The videos in the update and the previous examples coming out of the character creator show what is positive, and I do take heart in that - the quality of work appears good to me in many ways, and the desire to pursue a game built upon a foundation of solid systems is still visible. I would like to spend a lengthy post complimenting and giving feedback on the technical and artistic progress I've noticed, because the individuals responsible for it deserve what praise and constructive criticism we can offer.

But doing so right now would distract me from the need to point out an ongoing problem. Specifically, I do not feel comfortable introducing a family member or friend or even a Rift PUG teammate to MWM, while its internal policies (or lack) keep isolating me as a supporter from a more complete and true status of the project toward all development goals (but especially for Issue 0). I want to believe that's fixable. I want to be able to trust in the quality of all that MWM is doing, beyond the tech & art & story of CoT. I also want MWM to trust me enough to know I would remain supportive if a problem is honestly and promptly shared.

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Well that's disappointing

Well that's disappointing news and I hope next year has fewer bumps on the path. Thank you for the updates...

The reflectivity on the cape was convincing in a pre-alpha context albeit a bit too leathery for my taste. I also liked the music and that it changed with the transition from the island to Santa's Pad. I'm assuming that's in game music and not added after the fact. Others mentioned this and I would also appreciate seeing multiple outcomes to the mission pathing.
For the proceedural generator-- More info on the proceedural process and the degree of initial input that was required to create what we saw would be interesting to me.
(Loved the giant desk.)
I hope everyone has a wonderful and safe holiday/new year.

Dark Cleric
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JWBullfrog wrote:
JWBullfrog wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we had hopes of making it up. Then we had things going wrong and we were trying to fix them. Then we were trying to make something nice, and...
Look, as late as October, we had pretty good hopes of getting something out. That bit where I brought Chargen out for someone to mess with at NYCC and on the 31st? We were hoping, two-three weeks and we'd start rolling something out.

But it didn't work out that way. Then time started moving REALLY FAST on us and also a guy hit me with his pickup and I got distracted for a bit.

Don't let Cabbit fool you. Up until LAST WEEK we were absolutely convinced that, despite everything, we'd be able to hit that deadline. Obviously, we didn't. We'll take what we've learned from this and keep moving forward. We'll also try harder to keep y'all up to date on things, since without you, there is no game.

Thanks for sticking with us.

I'm too curious to not ask...what could possibly have changed or happened from last week? To go from, a few days ago, thinking you'd be releasing to now being delayed 3 months? Wasnt the 2nd tech issue months ago?

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Kid Rad
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
JWBullfrog wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we had hopes of making it up. Then we had things going wrong and we were trying to fix them. Then we were trying to make something nice, and...
Look, as late as October, we had pretty good hopes of getting something out. That bit where I brought Chargen out for someone to mess with at NYCC and on the 31st? We were hoping, two-three weeks and we'd start rolling something out.

But it didn't work out that way. Then time started moving REALLY FAST on us and also a guy hit me with his pickup and I got distracted for a bit.

Don't let Cabbit fool you. Up until LAST WEEK we were absolutely convinced that, despite everything, we'd be able to hit that deadline. Obviously, we didn't. We'll take what we've learned from this and keep moving forward. We'll also try harder to keep y'all up to date on things, since without you, there is no game.

Thanks for sticking with us.

I'm too curious to not ask...what could possibly have changed or happened from last week? To go from, a few days ago, thinking you'd be releasing to now being delayed 3 months? Wasnt the 2nd tech issue months ago?

I will echo this inquiry. It seems there's two storylines going here. Perhaps it speaks to the nature of the organization of the team, that it's too much to ask to have everyone on the same page. Which is revealing in and of itself.

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To everyone:

To everyone:

Thanks for your support.

Thanks for your feedback.

Thanks for your critical view.

All of it is valid. As Warcabbit said earlier, we were hoping to get Issue 0 going during November. As November came near its end and Warcabbit recovered from his accident and was less distracted by life issues, there was serious determination to dig in and get things done before end of fall.

It wa about a week-week and a half back that it became apparent that unless everyone involved that could help dropped everything, and could work full time and over time, that we wouldn’t make it.

That was a hard one for the team. It was pretty demoralizing honestly. There was honest concern of upsetting you fans laden with fear of the backlash.

Warcabbit rallied. The PR team rallied. It was decided we needed to give an update explaining everything.

But we knew we needed to do more than that. We wanted to show you that not only can we make these different characters, but that there was more work done and more work going on.

I honestly lobbied for us to show more than we ended up showing in the update. It’s. It my call as to what goes in or not and I understand the decision for the “nots”.

The island is our issue-0 char zone. It is ready. The avatar creator is fully prototyped for costumes. The team has been dealing with bugs like crazy, and making changes while also working on the UI.

As you can see we have the mission system working for branching dialogue, which allows for multiple endings. Instancing works.

The procedural map is a complete map level. This is huge. I can understate that enough. As we build more map assets and place them into the library, the map system can call from the library and generate the map when it is called.

The level design team worked very hard on this tech. It was Many months of work to get that tech working. It’s a massive accomplishment.

We wanted to show you all that not only are we close to Issue 0, but progress has been and continues to be made in multiple areas of the game.

And there is more going on. Changes based on your observations have already been underway. We feel terrible as a team. We know we let a lot of people down. As hard as this has been, we aren’t giving up.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
JWBullfrog wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we had hopes of making it up. Then we had things going wrong and we were trying to fix them. Then we were trying to make something nice, and...
Look, as late as October, we had pretty good hopes of getting something out. That bit where I brought Chargen out for someone to mess with at NYCC and on the 31st? We were hoping, two-three weeks and we'd start rolling something out.

But it didn't work out that way. Then time started moving REALLY FAST on us and also a guy hit me with his pickup and I got distracted for a bit.

Don't let Cabbit fool you. Up until LAST WEEK we were absolutely convinced that, despite everything, we'd be able to hit that deadline. Obviously, we didn't. We'll take what we've learned from this and keep moving forward. We'll also try harder to keep y'all up to date on things, since without you, there is no game.

Thanks for sticking with us.

I'm too curious to not ask...what could possibly have changed or happened from last week? To go from, a few days ago, thinking you'd be releasing to now being delayed 3 months? Wasnt the 2nd tech issue months ago?

To be honest, it was our own stubbornness. We believed we could do it, We KNEW we could do it. We were so determined to make it work that we didn't want to admit that we couldn't. We probably should have come to that realization a bit sooner.

As one of the folks here said "this project is our bones now. I don't think we could stop even if we wanted to. "

MWM Editor- Public Relations Team-All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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Oh, we were delayed three

Oh, we were delayed three months for ages. That doesn't mean we didn't think we couldn't make the date.
I've decided not to say things about releasing parts of the project till after they're released. Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?
Edit: The first part of the project that goes out, is probably going to go to like five people first, and we'll get some feedback, and so on, and so on.

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... you guys still haven't

... you guys still haven't figured out why the cape was 'plastic', have you? I've got to have a little fun here. Well, that, and the shiny shiny reflections.

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And there we go. Word of

And there we go. Word of Cabbit. Again, if you are a Kickstarter backer and you have not updated your contact information, take a minute and go do that. If you are having trouble with that, drop us a note.

MWM Editor- Public Relations Team-All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

... you guys still haven't figured out why the cape was 'plastic', have you? I've got to have a little fun here. Well, that, and the shiny shiny reflections.

I want that hammer!
I'm going to make my cape denim lol

01000101 01010010 01010010 01001111 01010010 00111010 00100000 00110100 00110000 00110100 00001101 00001010 01001000 01100101 01110010 01101111 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110101 01101110 01100100 00100001

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Your complaint has been noted

Your complaint has been noted. Several times. You keep bringing up how you have nothing invested into this project, but you seem to be real invested in convincing everyone that these devs are bad.

These devs are doing something amazing that is sorely lacking in the game industry right now. They are making a game that is designed top to bottom FOR US, and they are doing it for free. Most games right now are intentionally gimping themselves in order to get people to pay more money. Or they are picking one successful game in a given genre and copying it so we end up with 50 different skins on the same game. I don't fully understand what all goes into developing a game of this scale, but I'm pretty darn proud of them for doing it.

When you talk about communication, they have been communicating with us for 5+ years now. I don't really know what it is that I can do to help in their efforts other than funding and word of mouth, but I imagine what would not be helpful is to discourage the devs every time they log into the forums to check up on things. You don't need to raise the same concern 3 times a week and expect them to respond to it (singular it) every time.

I have to think that, with how often you post in the forums, on some level you believe in this project and what they are doing too. I hope that is the case. But yes, I am a true believer, and if the end result of all of this is a game, designed for the players, with the flexibility that coh had (and then some) and with the same type of emphasis on community, then there is likely not a pill that I won't swallow so long as the devs don't just give up on the project.

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Well, I got the email notice

Well, I got the email notice of this update from the KS, so my info should be fine.

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Well stated Scott. Respectful

Well stated Scott. Respectful and thoughful comments. I believe most in the community tend to welcome more information rather than less. Even if it's about a delay or setback. I also believe MWM were convinced they could meet their deadline. It's this self-evaluation part that might need more support rather than soley more active communication. As it determines whatis conveyed in the first placee. I'm not certain how we can support MWM on measuring their rate of progress more precisely, however. It might be more up to them to refine how they do this. It may also still be the case that at their current stage of progress a more precise determination may not be possible or so involved that it is too cumbersome. I would appreciate their thoughts on this matter as it might re-establish more realistic expectations in the future. I hope this comment is helpful in the discussion.

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I understand people who are

I understand people who are upset about delays.

It was expected to be done over three years ago. People are mad about that. That’s valid.

The project was massively delayed, and in some ways started over again from scratch, because there was an opportunity to do it better with a new engine that will give a vastly better product in the end. This is also valid.

Promises have been made that couldn’t be met, more people are disappointed and mad. Totally valid.

The dev team is open about what went wrong and why, and is still chugging along and confident we’ll have something soon so keep the faith. Valid.

This is one of those weird situations where almost every opinion, both positive and negative, is equally valid. I can’t argue with people who are angry and spraying vitriol but I also can’t fault the developers. I personally have faith but understand those who don’t. Until the game is released I can’t refute people who say it will never be released because, things happen. I’ve seen this game take shape over the years through updates and discussions so I don’t doubt it is coming, but again that’s faith. I can’t call a doubter “wrong” right now.

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It's not the cape, it's the

It's not the cape, it's the skin. He looks like an action figure. However, I expect that is just a matter of some texture and shaders adjustments.

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I just love seeing progress.

I just love seeing progress. I know making a MMO is not easy. But I would like to keep encouraging the team that we got your back and we are understanding when hiccups happen. Keep up the awesome work and I am rooting for you

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

... you guys still haven't figured out why the cape was 'plastic', have you? I've got to have a little fun here. Well, that, and the shiny shiny reflections.

I could *guess* that material selection is working and was set to a certain type of plastic,
...or that it indicates multiple "sub-materials" with preset densities/thicknesses/reflectivities have been created per material, where such would make sense,
...or even some sort of "density", "thickness", "surface pattern", and/or "reflectivity" customization features exists, to expand upon the material selection.

But "figuring out" would require a peek at the interface... heh.

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I was a mogul contributor to

I was a mogul contributor to this game and have been excited about City of Titans every year since I first heard about it. The whole idea of a community generated super hero game was not only a replacement for CoH for me, but an even more exciting collaborative idea for a game built on shared creativity that truly inspired me.

A little over a year ago I started to feel concerned that the moguls might be falling a bit behind in development. So I decided to do something to be even more engaged in the game. Since I was already in the "take my money" camp, I decided to invest in my own learning of 3D modeling, started taking classes at a game development school, contacted CoT to ask if I could help, and as someone with 3D modeling experience, it was very easy to get involved. I started volunteering for CoT modeling landmark and mogul buildings, started moving from being a novice in 3D modeling to really learning a lot fast, and over the last year I have now built about twenty building models that are planned to be part of the game environment. It's been an amazing experience and I couldn't be more excited to be a continuing part of the game.

All of this is to say - if you are feeling like you would like to see more progress in the game, consider becoming a volunteer. And CoT can especially always use more 3D modelers. If you are someone who had the money to be a contributor to the game, and you have the time and interest, the school that I started learning 3D modeling is based in Los Angeles but also offers online 'intro to Maya' classes, which is the class that really helped me get started in 3D modeling. Here's a link to the school: https://www.gnomon.edu/

As someone who has invested countless hours and a lot of my paycheck over many years now, I want to say that I couldn't be more excited about the progress I'm seeing in the game. Things take time when they are done with quality, and this game is going to be amazing!

Here's to progress in 2019!

Nathan Purkiss
Aka Red Warlock

Master Builder

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We intend to do a Moguls

We intend to do a Moguls update focusing on Nathan's work 'soon', parenthetically. There's one update that might knock it out from 'next'.
Also, would you guys be interested in hearing Nathan talk about the difference between 'what they taught you in school' and 'what a video game actually needs in its models'? Cause it's... I mean it's interesting to _us_.

PS: Nathan has designed the revised City Hall, it's gonna be SO COOL to hang out at and sit on.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

We intend to do a Moguls update focusing on Nathan's work 'soon', parenthetically. There's one update that might knock it out from 'next'.
Also, would you guys be interested in hearing Nathan talk about the difference between 'what they taught you in school' and 'what a video game actually needs in its models'? Cause it's... I mean it's interesting to _us_.

PS: Nathan has designed the revised City Hall, it's gonna be SO COOL to hang out at and sit on.

So, Mogul structures, or the one thing that could be more important... Sounds like a win-win. ^_^
And sure, I'm always up for a technical discussion of a subject about which I know almost nothing!

(BTW, if your sarcasm detector didn't go off on that last sentence, then they are working as intended.)

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
Brutum wrote:

Very disappointed.

So are we.
Basically, rebuilding our network environment took all the people we have who could have been working on the account system, web site, store, patcher, and all the little details needed that a MMO needs and a standalone game does not. Sure, things are better designed now, but we lost months, and while we pushed as hard as we could, we just couldn't make Fall.

Yeah I understand that and all, but since you guys had stated so many times it was coming out by the end of the year, I had been telling my various groups that backers were almost definitely finally gonna get their hands on something this Christmas. They won't be as understanding as I have been I'm sure, it's been five years now and nobody even has something clunky to play with. It looks really bad. But others have already mentioned this so there isn't really a need to mention it I suppose. I'll not get my hopes up again until people actually have something to tinker with to make sure this doesn't happen again with them.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Also, would you guys be interested in hearing Nathan talk about the difference between 'what they taught you in school' and 'what a video game actually needs in its models'? Cause it's... I mean it's interesting to _us_.

Yes. I would.

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Nathan,

Nathan,

Do, do tell us more. Please, I am interested in the difference between school knowledge and practical knowledge.

Being self taught myself, it amazes me what university students are saying and what RL has taught me. (After I retired from the military, I've been working in logistics for almost 20 years now).

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Nathan,

Nathan,

Do, do tell us more. Please, I am interested in the difference between school knowledge and practical knowledge.

Being self taught myself, it amazes me what university students are saying and what RL has taught me. (After I retired from the military, I've been working in logistics for almost 20 years now).

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Red_Warlock wrote:
Red_Warlock wrote:

I was a mogul contributor to this game and have been excited about City of Titans every year since I first heard about it. The whole idea of a community generated super hero game was not only a replacement for CoH for me, but an even more exciting collaborative idea for a game built on shared creativity that truly inspired me.

A little over a year ago I started to feel concerned that the moguls might be falling a bit behind in development. So I decided to do something to be even more engaged in the game. Since I was already in the "take my money" camp, I decided to invest in my own learning of 3D modeling, started taking classes at a game development school, contacted CoT to ask if I could help, and as someone with 3D modeling experience, it was very easy to get involved. I started volunteering for CoT modeling landmark and mogul buildings, started moving from being a novice in 3D modeling to really learning a lot fast, and over the last year I have now built about twenty building models that are planned to be part of the game environment. It's been an amazing experience and I couldn't be more excited to be a continuing part of the game.

All of this is to say - if you are feeling like you would like to see more progress in the game, consider becoming a volunteer. And CoT can especially always use more 3D modelers. If you are someone who had the money to be a contributor to the game, and you have the time and interest, the school that I started learning 3D modeling is based in Los Angeles but also offers online 'intro to Maya' classes, which is the class that really helped me get started in 3D modeling. Here's a link to the school: https://www.gnomon.edu/

As someone who has invested countless hours and a lot of my paycheck over many years now, I want to say that I couldn't be more excited about the progress I'm seeing in the game. Things take time when they are done with quality, and this game is going to be amazing!

Here's to progress in 2019!

Nathan Purkiss
Aka Red Warlock

This post delivers.

And thank you for the update. Bum deal, but that's how it goes some times. Keep on keepin' on.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

Nathan,

Do, do tell us more. Please, I am interested in the difference between school knowledge and practical knowledge.

Being self taught myself, it amazes me what university students are saying and what RL has taught me. (After I retired from the military, I've been working in logistics for almost 20 years now).

I'd be happy to work with the PR team on a mogul update or talk about what is different in what I learned in school versus building for games...

A few quick things about school vs real life experience:

School was great for me for getting a 30,000 foot look at how 3D modeling works. If tech doesn't come naturally to you (as it doesn't for me), and you are more of an arts-focused person, school can be a great overview to help understand all the parts of 3D modeling. It also can get you to a functional level that you are ready to start doing more practical work.

Real-life training is something you are going to have to do whether you have been taking classes or not. There comes a time when you need to use a tool that you don't know how to use, or a bug has happened that you don't understand, and you have to look online for a tutorial that can help you work through it. There are a million tutorials out there, and if you aren't the classroom type, by all means that's a fantastic way to learn, and probably the way most people learn 3D modeling.

City of Titans has been a fantastic learning environment for me because the artists have all been very collaborative. Any time when I have run into a technical hurdle, there are usually several artists who can help figure out the problem, and then that's one more thing I've learned that is under my belt moving forward.

The unique 'learning' in a game vs school, I think, is learning to build efficiency in your models that will work for a game. In school, I built very elaborate, highly sculpted models that would be far too large to upload into a game. So the skill I've learned in working on the game is to model with enough detail to make a model look interesting, while using as few polygons as possible to make the model quicker to upload in a game.

Master Builder

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Under promise. Over deliver.

Under promise. Over deliver. You guys are you own worst enemies. I think most of us that supported you have faith in you. But for those looking in from the outside you really need to represent MWM as a business instead of the labor of love that we know it is for you.

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Nice videos. I particularly

Nice videos. I particularly liked the bright yellow guy with the 4-wing backpack. He reminded me of Henchman 21 from The Venture Bros (shout out to anyone who remember the Team Venture SG on Triumph back in the day).

I am unsurprised and unphased by the delay and frankly don't agree with those who've said "you should have told us sooner". The only reason anyone thinks that is their own curiosity. The devs don't owe us a day-by-day accounts, and you don't always know how bad a problem is when you're still in the middle of it. People want constant updates that show measurable progress. That's not how these things get done. Work is constant but progress comes in hard-fought fits and starts as a result.

One graphical thing I saw in the santa video is the hero guy's glowing visor beam was reflecting off of the bridge of his nose, from some angles. That's super realistic on the one hand, but the visor itself should probably be blocking the light from hitting his nose in the first place, shouldn't it?

One other thing, it would be nice to have either a radar, or map, of a visual marker on the HUD or something to let us know which direction to go to get to the magic candy cane on the top of the rock. I assume the author of the video knew where it was, but I would not have had any idea where to go if it were me.

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Thanks for the update, can't

Thanks for the update, can't wait until you put out the alpha.

Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Nice videos. I particularly liked the bright yellow guy with the 4-wing backpack. He reminded me of Henchman 21 from The Venture Bros (shout out to anyone who remember the Team Venture SG on Triumph back in the day).

I am unsurprised and unphased by the delay and frankly don't agree with those who've said "you should have told us sooner". The only reason anyone thinks that is their own curiosity. The devs don't owe us a day-by-day accounts, and you don't always know how bad a problem is when you're still in the middle of it. People want constant updates that show measurable progress. That's not how these things get done. Work is constant but progress comes in hard-fought fits and starts as a result.

One graphical thing I saw in the santa video is the hero guy's glowing visor beam was reflecting off of the bridge of his nose, from some angles. That's super realistic on the one hand, but the visor itself should probably be blocking the light from hitting his nose in the first place, shouldn't it?

One other thing, it would be nice to have either a radar, or map, of a visual marker on the HUD or something to let us know which direction to go to get to the magic candy cane on the top of the rock. I assume the author of the video knew where it was, but I would not have had any idea where to go if it were me.

You're right. The devs dont owe us anything. But they're going to be asking for money soon, which they desperately need. Some have no reservations, some have no expectations...but many do. And if they want those people to donate they need to be met.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Keep in mind that this was

Keep in mind that this was just showing the mission tech. It does not use our UI for the game. Even the chat windows are placeholder.

Mission markers, a map HUD, etc are all part of UI and a separate module from the mission tech being shown in the video.

When you think / say it would be great to have because it is missing in the video - you’re right. It is missing from the video. That is the kind of stuff that will be plugged in as we go along.


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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I am unsurprised and unphased by the delay and frankly don't agree with those who've said "you should have told us sooner". The only reason anyone thinks that is their own curiosity.

I cannot stress enough how untrue that last statement is. This isn't about curiosity; it's about how a business sets and manages expectations.

After all the many posts we've had on the design of CoT I have great faith that MWM can develop the sort of superhero MMO that I've been dying to play since Nov 2012. What I keep looking for is evidence that MWM will be able to manage an MMO as a business. I'm afraid my jury is still out on that. I don't want it to be, but so far I don't have enough evidence to think otherwise.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Whose expectations? Ours?

Whose expectations? Ours? And why do we expect the things we expect? And why should the devs feel like they have to satisfy every request for more information from every user on this forum? I personally am fine with the rate of information flow so far. Also, thew Kickstarter never stipulated "...And you'll all get to see the game being made with daily/weekly updates that go into huge detail, give a constant accurate timeline, and address your concerns in real time!" They never promised us that.

I still believe that people want to hear ever more about what's going on because of the basic human desire for more information, i.e. curiosity.

I seem to remember hearing about the truck accident and the cancer and the sever sh!tting the bed over the last few months on these forums, so you can't tell me you weren't informed of that. At the time I felt like this was bad news and probably a setback in the making. They can't measure these things in days and then recompute an accurate time to target based on that. Even if you could. as soon as you do that, the next cataclysm hits and you're running the numbers again, and for what? To satisfy some guy who chipped in $50 and thinks it entitles him to constant info? No way I'm running the show like that. This work can't be done well under a constant backer microscope.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I am unsurprised and unphased by the delay and frankly don't agree with those who've said "you should have told us sooner". The only reason anyone thinks that is their own curiosity.

I cannot stress enough how untrue that last statement is. This isn't about curiosity; it's about how a business sets and manages expectations.

After all the many posts we've had on the design of CoT I have great faith that MWM can develop the sort of superhero MMO that I've been dying to play since Nov 2012. What I keep looking for is evidence that MWM will be able to manage an MMO as a business. I'm afraid my jury is still out on that. I don't want it to be, but so far I don't have enough evidence to think otherwise.

It has nothing to do with wanting updates every week. It has everything to do with them consistently, week by week, saying that at long last we’d see something by December and then at the last minute they say “Yeah, nevermind.” That is ‘extremely’ frustrating.

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That's the point of a PR

That's the point of a PR department- handle the microscope so the devs can do their work undisturbed.

It's absolutely not unreasonable to say the ball was dropped concerning communication, though. Hopefully as stated, things will get better from here.

Necro Mastermind.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Whose expectations? Ours? And why do we expect the things we expect? And why should the devs feel like they have to satisfy every request for more information from every user on this forum? I personally am fine with the rate of information flow so far. Also, thew Kickstarter never stipulated "...And you'll all get to see the game being made with daily/weekly updates that go into huge detail, give a constant accurate timeline, and address your concerns in real time!" They never promised us that.

I still believe that people want to hear ever more about what's going on because of the basic human desire for more information, i.e. curiosity.

I seem to remember hearing about the truck accident and the cancer and the sever sh!tting the bed over the last few months on these forums, so you can't tell me you weren't informed of that. At the time I felt like this was bad news and probably a setback in the making. They can't measure these things in days and then recompute an accurate time to target based on that. Even if you could. as soon as you do that, the next cataclysm hits and you're running the numbers again, and for what? To satisfy some guy who chipped in $50 and thinks it entitles him to constant info? No way I'm running the show like that. This work can't be done well under a constant backer microscope.

Wow you're way off the mark. People have different criteria they want met before giving up money. For some there is very little, if any, criteria so they donate freely. Other people are just as willing to donate but they would like to see that MWM can run like a professional company. Others want to see whatever their definition of progress is after 5 years of development. If the devs cant show them a video that meets their expectations they wont donate until they are shown something that meets their expectations.

I'm not saying MWM has any duty to meet anyones expectations. I'm saying if they want those people to donate they will have to meet their expectations.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Tannim222
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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

That's the point of a PR department- handle the microscope so the devs can do their work undisturbed.

It's absolutely not unreasonable to say the ball was dropped concerning communication, though. Hopefully as stated, things will get better from here.

I ageee that we can improve on communication.

But going back several months when we hit the second snag - the determination was at that time - this is bad but we can make up the time.

Everyone continued their work.
As of late October things were still chugging along.
It was through mid-Nov that it began to be apparent that the impact of the repo issues had really begun to show.

And at that point the determination was - yes we are set back but we can make up the time. It will just take devoting more time. People hunkered down even more despite the holidays between.

It was just not that long ago that the end of fall deadline (out worst case scenario date) was determined to not be possible.

At which point the decision was made to give an official update on what is happening.
But we decided to delay the post in order to show everyone - in an official manner - and that is show - not tell - that while we have missed our deadline, here is what else has been completed tech wise. Each or those are separate modules / projects that are to be plugged into the main game.

So, looking back, we could have posted an update that we hit another tech issue after the repo failure but that we are working hard.

We could have said something in a November that we might miss the deadline but are working hard.

And we could have said something officially about a week and a half ago. But we wanted to give you something more than an apology.

Yes, we failed to communicate what we have been going through but we didn’t want to cause more concern because we felt that we could make up the work caused by the technical issues.

Every update along the way would have also caused us to stop and delay other work. Even just a post as an official update would cause more questions not just here on the forums but all our social media and beyond. This update has been a week in the making, pulling people away from other work. Even our PR lead isn’t just doing PR but is also a dev.

As Warcabbit said, we hear you. We can certainly improve our communication. Just please realize that none of this was meant to be keep fans “in the dark”. The intent all along was to issue 0 done. We know this was a let down.

We aren’t blaming anyone for being highly critical of us. We in fact expected it. It caused plenty of concern.

Sorry sometimes just doesn’t cover it.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
warcabbit
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I'm just going to leave this

I'm just going to leave this video here. It's what happens when you find that one stupid issue about five minutes after you make a video.

Also, Geeks changed something that should make you all happy.

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Captain Titan
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Ok Gang let's all take a Deep

Ok Gang let's all take a Deep Breath and relax a bit, Sure we were all hoping for something new an shiny to play with at Xmas, But the ball got dropped and not picked up until now, We have to remember the Devs are people just like us, They have day /night jobs and can only do so much, Real life and Family will always come first, So it's been a little over 5 years now. Look at what all has Happen in that time, We have become stronger as a Community, we stand Behind our Devs, we still pull together an lift each other up when it's Needed, We are Heroes it's what we do. Sure there are times we have to roll with the punches an take it on the chin, But we still stand up an do what we need to do.an right now we need to support our devs instead of fussing over a date missed,

Hell in those 5 years I have had 6 heart attacks, almost died twice from them, But shit I haven't worried about a game that I have no control over, So let's pull together an wait for the new Shiny to come out when it's ready, Pick up the devs dust them off, Hand them a Candy Kane an pat them on the back, Remember it's Christmas Time, a time of joy an hope, not Anger.

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