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Discuss: What's It Mean? Alpha and Beta

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JWBullfrog
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Discuss: What's It Mean? Alpha and Beta

All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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Ohhh, I didn't even notice

Ohhh, I didn't even notice the "emanation system" node :)


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This is an outstanding

This is an outstanding foundational concept update that will allay a lot of concerns about not knowing where the project stands -- while of course causing new complaints that this or that element isn't completed yet :-) Still, if you manage to periodically share an updated version of the graphic, it will help to answer the oft repeated question about where we stand now.

I also like that you're clarifying MWM's terms so we can use relevant language in further discussions.

Looks like this also helps answer our questions about what Issue 0 will contain. Am I right to interpret the 'Integrate' indicators as meaning these things will be added to the Issue 0 environment once they go all-white? If so, does that mean the I0 area will have enemies so we can test combat?

Also, should we expect an entire character wipe between Beta and Live?

Keep turning those Greens to Whites!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

This is an outstanding foundational concept update that will allay a lot of concerns about not knowing where the project stands -- while of course causing new complaints that this or that element isn't completed yet :-) Still, if you manage to periodically share an updated version of the graphic, it will help to answer the oft repeated question about where we stand now.

I also like that you're clarifying MWM's terms so we can use relevant language in further discussions.

Looks like this also helps answer our questions about what Issue 0 will contain. Am I right to interpret the 'Integrate' indicators as meaning these things will be added to the Issue 0 environment once they go all-white? If so, does that mean the I0 area will have enemies so we can test combat?

Also, should we expect an entire character wipe between Beta and Live?

Keep turning those Greens to Whites!

There will be several wipes we anticipate during the beta, and yes, before live. We do however plan on having a way for people to store their characters, even if not their experience and levels, so that they can restart without needing to remake if they so choose.

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I'm liking how most of the

I'm liking how most of the systems that pertain to the AB are mostly green, meaning that they're in the next step. Everything thats highlighted in blue looks to be primarily the systems that'll see more refinements and closer to completion as we near an eventual release date.

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Glitch404 wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

I'm liking how most of the systems that pertain to the AB are mostly green, meaning that they're in the next step. Everything thats highlighted in blue looks to be primarily the systems that'll see more refinements and closer to completion as we near an eventual release date.

You mean AD? the AB is "completed" ;)


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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

I'm liking how most of the systems that pertain to the AB are mostly green, meaning that they're in the next step. Everything thats highlighted in blue looks to be primarily the systems that'll see more refinements and closer to completion as we near an eventual release date.

You mean AD? the AB is "completed" ;)

AD, right! :P Force of habit at this point to want to say AB.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

There will be several wipes we anticipate during the beta, and yes, before live. We do however plan on having a way for people to store their characters, even if not their experience and levels, so that they can restart without needing to remake if they so choose.

For what it's worth, storing character appearance but wiping experience and levels would be my preference for transition to Live. I think Live should be the 'real' start of the character's lives, so to speak, and a major significant event. My concern about a slow slide from Alpha to Live is that we could end up in one of those endless Alpha limbos that seem to suck in other games.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I agree with Cinnder.

I agree with Cinnder. Character experience wipes would be preferable rather than having to remake your entire character from scratch, especially when it feels like you got their looks just right. I know there will be the ability to save and load costumes, but some of us...cough...me...cough can be rather forgetful.

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This moves my needle a little

This moves my needle a little back towards positive but I am still wary. This is a single graphic, however informative. I look forward to seeing progress over time.

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Nice infodump! Keep'em coming

Nice infodump! Keep'em coming!

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This is substantive and

This is substantive and illuminating update. Thank you. I'm pleasantly surprised on the progress on some of the items we don't hear much about (combat is farther along than I thought, for example).

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Not Bad! I am amazed to see

Not Bad! I am amazed to see the various morality paths almost there! That in itself is quite intriguing! This whole update is very informative. Please keep up the good work!

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I'm with Cinnder. As long as

I'm with Cinnder. As long as there's a way to save my outfit and power animation designs, I'll be happy.

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Thank for the clarification

Thank you for the clarification of those very confusing terms (alpha/beta). I feel it helps with setting expectations and focus forum feedback in a more meaningful direction.
The progress map is very helpful at this point. I know some folks have been asking for something like it to bolster confidence in the project. The degree of progress noted in the chart certainly brings excitement for me.
Keep up the good work!!

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+1 to Cinnder, Glitch and

+1 to Cinnder, Glitch and Halae about wipes.

Thanks for the great clarification about where things stand!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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A really fantastic update.

A really fantastic update. Having done some project management, I love a good roadmap. I am very excited to get my hands on the Avatar Builder early, and see what the new tech can do. Thank you guys and gals for continuing to push hard for this dream.

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Might I suggest starting to

Might I suggest starting to use Trello? My team has started using it and our clients just love being able to view the boards and see where progress is and where it is going on.

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We started the project using

We started the project using Jira, we tried Asana, it didn't work out, and we are, in fact, using Trello, and the resemblance of the picture to a trello board on its side is not coincidental.
But this is an inspirational picture for us, as well, it's about being able to stamp DONE on a thing.

We thought about including some descriptions of how we use Trello in this, but we felt it wouldn't make sense to people who haven't done project planning and left too much room open for ambiguity and confusion.

We also came to the conclusion that it's probably best not to make the trello boards public till we hit issue 1 and can talk about expansions of existing product rather than core building.
We are using them for development (internal) and not communication (external).

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Honestly, I don't think the

Honestly, I don't think the current Trello boards will ever be public. We need the devs to be able to yell at each other in private without it showing up on AO3.

That said, public Trello boards in some form could be useful. Or maybe I'll just set up a Taiga server (similar to Trello, takes about half an hour, depends on the relative costs). Public bug trackers could save us some grief in reducing duplicate reports and letting folks know progress on their pet issues. We'll see.

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this was the kind of update

this was the kind of update you have been needing. awesome work! no ambiguity in my eyes now

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Honestly, I don't think the current Trello boards will ever be public. We need the devs to be able to yell at each other in private without it showing up on AO3.

That said, public Trello boards in some form could be useful. Or maybe I'll just set up a Taiga server (similar to Trello, takes about half an hour, depends on the relative costs). Public bug trackers could save us some grief in reducing duplicate reports and letting folks know progress on their pet issues. We'll see.

Right, trello for the public is a completely different... architecture? Paradigm? Aesthetic? Somewhere between one of those.
Trello for bug hunting isn't a bad idea, but either way, after the primary work is done.

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Really really really good

Really really really good update :) It's very enlightening, both on the whole content and on each subject ! And, it means the Second Chance is coming ! :D

I noticed that each "point" has its own (round) line. Is it their own progress line ? Maybe not, i'm probably to precise in my understanding ^^ If not, it could really neat to have an idea of the stage of progress for each item :)
Maybe something is missing, like, what are the priorities of each part ? it seems that the Issue #0 is more advanced than the other part, probably because it has a higher piority over another part but in which order do you plan to progress in those part ?

NB : Can you tell us what is "AD DB system" ? Is that the Aesthetic Decoupling DataBase system ? and what do you mean by "the repo man" ? i must admit i don't understand that word. is that the repository man ? ^^
NB2 : trello could be really neat but not having swim lanes is really really annoying in the free version !


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Can you tell us what is "AD DB system" ? Is that the Aesthetic Decoupling DataBase system ?

That is exactly what it means. The animations and fx need to be stored and processed off a database system in order for them to be accessed and hook into each power type of power.


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EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Solid info!!!!!!!!

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

...and what do you mean by "the repo man" ? i must admit i don't understand that word. is that the repository man ? ^^

In this context, 'Repo Man" is short for Repossession Man. If an item is bought on credit that is secured by that item (like most automobile loans, at least here in the U.S.) and you fall too far behind on the payments, the lender might decide to seize the item. So if a company has loans on their equipment, they may need to get money coming in whether their product is ready to sell or not.

Don't get this sort of loan to pay for things like internal organs.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

...and what do you mean by "the repo man" ? i must admit i don't understand that word. is that the repository man ? ^^

In this context, 'Repo Man" is short for Repossession Man. If an item is bought on credit that is secured by that item (like most automobile loans, at least here in the U.S.) and you fall too far behind on the payments, the lender might decide to seize the item. So if a company has loans on their equipment, they may need to get money coming in whether their product is ready to sell or not.

Don't get this sort of loan to pay for things like internal organs.

It kinda means both of those things and was half a joke.

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Ok ! Thanks for this

Ok ! Thanks for this explanation Fordain :) i understand the joke then warcabbit ^^
We have the same kind of things here in France but only on expensive things like cars, appartments, etc. This is the "Huissier de justice" (the bailif i guess) who come to you and take back the item to sold what you did'nt pay.


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It’s a graphic. A single

It’s a graphic. A single picture. Something an artist could whip up in 20-30 minutes. There’s nothing here that proves anything is any further along than it was a year ago.

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Regarding "paying the repo

Regarding "paying the repo man", it most likely refers to the development truism that "if it's not committed to the repository, it doesn't count." And since the repository is big, it generally takes its sweet time to commit changes.

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Now THIS is an update we can

Now THIS is an update we can sink our teeth into!
Progress broken down and revealed. I have been waiting for this for soooo long! Devs, Thank you! And a big thanks to all the guys who have devoted their free time to making this game a reality!

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

It’s a graphic. A single picture. Something an artist could whip up in 20-30 minutes. There’s nothing here that proves anything is any further along than it was a year ago.

While the cynic in me wants to agree, i think this is as close to a real timeline as we could have hoped to get. We dont know what this looked like last year so we cant compare but if nothing else its good to see a roadmap. I think this should constitute a little more than just a picture.

However, just because I0 has a bunch of blue circles doesnt mean its almost here. We've all seen how many setbacks the team has had. They are dedicated, ive never argued otherwise, but as we saw last year they can be close (within weeks of still affirming the expected release) and still be a year away or more.

What this chart doesnt give us is dates, timeframes, etc. Which is fine, they are under no obligation. I just see so many people taking this update to mean I0 is going to drop this year. Last year was one thing....there was an actual release date. This year, however, there isnt one so really no one should be expecting a release.

EDIT: Could we also get an explanation of where last weeks picture sits on this graphic? I imagine it would fall under the Issue #0 line in one of the blue circles.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

It’s a graphic. A single picture. Something an artist could whip up in 20-30 minutes. There’s nothing here that proves anything is any further along than it was a year ago.

This "20-30 minute graphic" literally confirms that the AB is done and now the focus is going to be on the smaller subsystems (or whatever the proper terminology for things like the Chat Server is called). The last update was of a picture that showcased a loading screen with no information to go off of. Now we're being shown the chart that the team uses in order to map their progress internally along with what they mean Alpha and Beta will mean for them from this point onward AND it has something we can take away from it unlike the last update, what more do you want?

A lot of the progress the Devs make is likely more involved with the game's code and overall stability rather than something you can visually see anyway.

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For the record, it took

For the record, it took longer than 20-30 min lol. I'm not that skilled 😊

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We did have an early version

We did have an early version of this pic that used different colors and was more swirly. It was very Kirby Dot-esque.

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This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!

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This update was what we were

This update was what we were asking for last week with the cryptic screenshot. We asked, they delivered. I dont expect them to post a dissertation every week, a quick synopsis lets us know they still love us. This was above and beyond what I expected. Hopefully as they ring the bells of success as they complete tasks, they will be able to celebrate with us their milestones.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

For the record, it took longer than 20-30 min lol. I'm not that skilled 😊

No you are that skilled! Design by Committee is just a thing :p


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ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:

This update was what we were asking for last week with the cryptic screenshot. We asked, they delivered. I dont expect them to post a dissertation every week, a quick synopsis lets us know they still love us. This was above and beyond what I expected. Hopefully as they ring the bells of success as they complete tasks, they will be able to celebrate with us their milestones.

+1

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Now that I can play CoH again

Now that I can play CoH again on homecoming, I have grown much more patient and am fine that you take the time to get things created properly. I appreciate the updates and am still very much looking forward to this project. Everything is really looking great.

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

Now that I can play CoH again on homecoming, I have grown much more patient and am fine that you take the time to get things created properly. I appreciate the updates and am still very much looking forward to this project. Everything is really looking great.

Same here! please take your time!

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Kool Rakoon wrote:
Kool Rakoon wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

Now that I can play CoH again on homecoming, I have grown much more patient and am fine that you take the time to get things created properly. I appreciate the updates and am still very much looking forward to this project. Everything is really looking great.

Same here! please take your time!

+1 agreed

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The update says "We also use

The update says "We also use it to track the progress of individual components of the game that might release on their own, such as the Avatar Builder.". I thought it was already determined that the AB couldn't be released on its own, that the whole game had to be released?

EDIT: This is what I am referring to, from the Primer update: "First, our current license with Epic prevents us from publicly releasing something other than a complete release. No playable demos with incomplete features, unfortunately. It’s also why we can’t just release the Avatar Builder for people to play with. That’s part of why Issue 0 is so important!".

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

The update says "We also use it to track the progress of individual components of the game that might release on their own, such as the Avatar Builder.". I thought it was already determined that the AB couldn't be released on its own, that the whole game had to be released?

EDIT: This is what I am referring to, from the Primer update: "First, our current license with Epic prevents us from publicly releasing something other than a complete release. No playable demos with incomplete features, unfortunately. It’s also why we can’t just release the Avatar Builder for people to play with. That’s part of why Issue 0 is so important!".

Yeah, the quoted section isn't entirely accurate. "On their own" means released without any way for us to patch it remotely. As long as we can patch it and update it, it's not really a separate release, it's just an unfinished part of the full release. A nice little technicality that allows us to get stuff out for testing.

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Note that the original

Note that the original statement was true as we knew it at the time, we had conversations with Epic later for clarification and had to ask a few questions about what counted as 'the game', and we're good with releasing AB as a pretaste.
Lot of stuff's been happening, you know the story about the swimming swan looking serene, and the feet pedaling like mad under it? That's basically what we have going on.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Yeah, the quoted section isn't entirely accurate. "On their own" means released without any way for us to patch it remotely. As long as we can patch it and update it, it's not really a separate release, it's just an unfinished part of the full release. A nice little technicality that allows us to get stuff out for testing.

So you've got a little legal loophole That means we can get things out? that's honestly pretty neat; here I was worried you were still getting strangled somewhat by the terms of the agreement.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Note that the original statement was true as we knew it at the time, we had conversations with Epic later for clarification and had to ask a few questions about what counted as 'the game', and we're good with releasing AB as a pretaste.
Lot of stuff's been happening, you know the story about the swimming swan looking serene, and the feet pedaling like mad under it? That's basically what we have going on.

That's excellent news!

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TBH the codebase for the

TBH the codebase for the avatar builder is more or less what gets built out into the rest of the game as we get other modules working and integrated.

In any case, City of Titans is the thing being released, not (for example) Clicky Cape.

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Glitch404 wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

This "20-30 minute graphic" literally confirms that the AB is done and now the focus is going to be on the smaller subsystems (or whatever the proper terminology for things like the Chat Server is called).

It doesn’t “confirm“ anything. It’s just a picture. This is what I’m saying. Even after all the disappointments some people are way too willing to accept anything they show you or tell you. I’m at the point now where I’m not going to get excited until I see visual proof that these things are actually working. A little graphic with a specially coloured dot doesn’t confirm anything. I could draw you a picture of myself and say this is me at 6’4”, 220 pounds with blonde hair blue eyes and I drive a 2019 Lamborghini. But it isn’t until you visually see all that that you’ll believe me. This is no different. They are relying on people like you to make assumptions and get all excited and they’re just sitting back saying nothing. That’s the wrong move at this point.

Glitch404 wrote:

...what more do you want?

To be honest with you, I am way way past the point of wanting or expecting anything. But since you asked, what I want is to see something happening, not a screenshot or a made up picture that says they’re doing stuff. I want to see things happening. It’s been six years.

Glitch404 wrote:

A lot of the progress the Devs make is likely more involved with the game's code and overall stability rather than something you can visually see anyway.

This is what we’ve been hearing for years now. It always seems to be things happening behind the scenes that we can’t see. I also remember two or three years ago they hit one of their “milestones” and they promised we’d be seeing a lot more videos of things in action and a lot more music and everything else. Still waiting for that.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

This "20-30 minute graphic" literally confirms that the AB is done and now the focus is going to be on the smaller subsystems (or whatever the proper terminology for things like the Chat Server is called).

It doesn’t “confirm“ anything. It’s just a picture. This is what I’m saying. Even after all the disappointments some people are way too willing to accept anything they show you or tell you. I’m at the point now where I’m not going to get excited until I see visual proof that these things are actually working. A little graphic with a specially coloured dot doesn’t confirm anything. I could draw you a picture of myself and say this is me at 6’4”, 220 pounds with blonde hair blue eyes and I drive a 2019 Lamborghini. But it isn’t until you visually see all that that you’ll believe me. This is no different. They are relying on people like you to make assumptions and get all excited and they’re just sitting back saying nothing. That’s the wrong move at this point.

I think we all know that if the game was released in full tomorrow and was perfect you’d gripe about it. I honestly believe at this point you are only on the boards to flame MWM. There’s no point in anyone trying to convince you that this isn’t a scam and that progress has been made, you’ve made up your mind, dug in your heels, and are heavily invested in your vitriol.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I think we all know that if the game was released in full tomorrow and was perfect you’d gripe about it.

It's part of the ambiance. We can't let it bother us.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Atama wrote:

I think we all know that if the game was released in full tomorrow and was perfect you’d gripe about it.

It's part of the ambiance. We can't let it bother us.

Okay that works. :)

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I could draw you a picture of myself and say this is me at 6’4”, 220 pounds with blonde hair blue eyes and I drive a 2019 Lamborghini. But it isn’t until you visually see all that that you’ll believe me. This is no different.

Could you photoshop a picture of it?


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Ok, I have to defend Zero

Ok, I have to defend Zero a little here.

While I don't personally agree with him, he's not wrong either. We haven't seen anything that is definitive proof of where MWM says they are with CoT. And there have been delays, broken promises and disappointments.

Let me be clear, I have tremendous respect for MWM for even considering the idea of making this game--much less freaking actually doing it. I believe they are telling us the truth and that they have had EPIC obstacles and are heroically carrying on. And I believe I just might play this game one day. And I think it will be amazing.

But, intolerance for dissenting voices isn't generally a good thing. Zero has been passionately contrarian, but as far as I've seen he has generally refrained from inappropriate forum behavior. I'm glad he's here.

PS- Juuust in case someone feels I'm being harsh to MWM, I have unintentionally broken sincere, well intended promises before, despite my very best efforts. Shit happens.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Ok, I have to defend Zero a little here.

While I don't personally agree with him, he's not wrong either. We haven't seen anything that is definitive proof of where MWM says they are with CoT. And there have been delays, broken promises and disappointments.

Let me be clear, I have tremendous respect for MWM for even considering the idea of making this game--much less freaking actually doing it. I believe they are telling us the truth and that they have had EPIC obstacles and are heroically carrying on. And I believe I just might play this game one day. And I think it will be amazing.

But, intolerance for dissenting voices isn't generally a good thing. Zero has been passionately contrarian, but as far as I've seen he has generally refrained from inappropriate forum behavior. I'm glad he's here.

PS- Juuust in case someone feels I'm being harsh to MWM, I have unintentionally broken sincere, well intended promises before, despite my very best efforts. Shit happens.

I havent seen any proof that any of you exist. Come to think of it, I havent seen proof that I exist! Do I even have a last name? Am I "red shirt crewman #7"? OMG I gonna die in this episode!!!!!!

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

This "20-30 minute graphic" literally confirms that the AB is done and now the focus is going to be on the smaller subsystems (or whatever the proper terminology for things like the Chat Server is called).

It doesn’t “confirm“ anything. It’s just a picture. This is what I’m saying...

So it doesn't confirm the Avatar Builder is complete? Then what does? Even if this update came with an attached video of the completed Avatar Builder, I don't think there's a way for it to uniquely show that its finished unless there a big stamp across it saying "DONE". It would likely still be the same character creator we've seen in previous updates, albeit with a few added adjustments if any at all.

Zerohour wrote:

I’m at the point now where I’m not going to get excited until I see visual proof that these things are actually working. A little graphic with a specially coloured dot doesn’t confirm anything.

What kind of visual proof are you looking for exactly and what do you mean by "actually working"? Statements such as that can be taken to imply that the Avatar Builder was never "working" to begin with. Also in the way of visual proof we can always point toward updates such as the
Where We Stand: The Avatar Builder video and the Design Evolution: UI Avatar Builder update. I bring attention to these particular updates because I'd like to ask and also entertain the idea of IF the Devs did decide to show off more "proof" of the character creator "working", what exactly would you expect or hope to be different from the last several times we've seen the AB? Would it be the inclusion of aura selection? Prop selection? Animation selection? You can't keep speaking of visual proof but then not include what it is you mean by that, especially when you're going to go off and call a chart such as the one included in this week's update a "picture" when perhaps its been the closest thing we've gotten to any sort of roadmap at all.

Zerohour wrote:

They are relying on people like you to make assumptions and get all excited and they’re just sitting back saying nothing. That’s the wrong move at this point.

Well then if that be the case in what ways would you suggest that they say something whilst still adhering to the rules of their NDA and not be completely transparent about the information that they likely are dying to share but can't because they know of both their personal history of last minute changes/occurrences or even miscommunication?

Zerohour wrote:

To be honest with you, I am way way past the point of wanting or expecting anything.

I find this not to be true or else you've found yourself no longer needing to come back to these forums still sharing the same skepticism towards the Devs' development process. If you were way past the point of wanting or expecting anything then you wouldn't be back here demanding visual proof that something is working. Mind you, you're a Kickstarter backer anything that the Devs manage to spit out at this point is coming right to you first. People like me, who lack that Kickstarter badge underneath their forum name, are coming second. Literally when you take into consideration the Second Chance.

Zerohour wrote:

what I want is to see something happening, not a screenshot or a made up picture that says they’re doing stuff. I want to see things happening.

What would you define as seeing things happening though? If the first release of CoT is going to be a character creator and chat zone, I imagine there's not going to be much that they can show off beyond just the AB and maybe whatever the chat server will have packed inside it? I don't know, I think a lot of the stuff that you are wishing/wanting to see we likely won't see until we near closer to an actual release of Issue 1.

Zerohour wrote:

It always seems to be things happening behind the scenes that we can’t see. I also remember two or three years ago they hit one of their “milestones” and they promised we’d be seeing a lot more videos of things in action and a lot more music and everything else. Still waiting for that.

There's not much I can really comment on regarding that point. I mean, if a lot of the achievements are being done behind the scenes then it is what it is. Can't help that a major improvement or accomplishment is made in something that can't necessarily be viewed by the naked eye. When it comes to videos of things in action and music, perhaps that something they'd want to show off post-Avatar Builder stuff? In my mind, it would make sense to not show off too much in regards of powers and combat if, again, the first form of release for CoT is going to be a character creator where powers are disabled and you won't be able to even choose things like your archetypes, powers, and props. It would send the wrong message to those who don't visit these forums regularly and when the AB does drop and they see a video of a generic hero kicking ass and using their powers but then the player goes to AB and finds that they can't do that very same thing, it'll likely turn them away. I could be stretching here but thats the thought I'm having.

But some more music would be nice to here. I remember listening to a few of the tracks Hellwreckage released a few years back and thought it was awesome. They do need to step their game up on more videos or audio on music at least.

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Nice to see an update!

Nice to see an update!

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From what i know and what has

From what i know and what has been said before : i prefer seeing an update sometimes, believe in it since MWM take time to build it even if it's one update per quarter a year and knowing they hardy work on the game with passion (and with the time they can spent on it as volunteer), than having an weekly update with all proves we would like, taking time from MWM's staff to build those updates with all that prooves preventing them to hardy work on the game.
(that's a long sentence, sorry, i hope it's understandable ^^)

What i mean is : why discussing about this update worth it or not ? This is an update which gives everyone a status of the development. Why would they give wrong informations ? It's a good thing for everyone afterall :) I prefere having this than nothing as i want to know arount which state the game is about to be released.


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Glitch404 wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

This "20-30 minute graphic" literally confirms that the AB is done and now the focus is going to be on the smaller subsystems (or whatever the proper terminology for things like the Chat Server is called).

It doesn’t “confirm“ anything. It’s just a picture. This is what I’m saying...

So it doesn't confirm the Avatar Builder is complete? Then what does? Even if this update came with an attached video of the completed Avatar Builder, I don't think there's a way for it to uniquely show that its finished unless there a big stamp across it saying "DONE". It would likely still be the same character creator we've seen in previous updates, albeit with a few added adjustments if any at all.

Zerohour wrote:

I’m at the point now where I’m not going to get excited until I see visual proof that these things are actually working. A little graphic with a specially coloured dot doesn’t confirm anything.

What kind of visual proof are you looking for exactly and what do you mean by "actually working"? Statements such as that can be taken to imply that the Avatar Builder was never "working" to begin with. Also in the way of visual proof we can always point toward updates such as the
Where We Stand: The Avatar Builder video and the Design Evolution: UI Avatar Builder update. I bring attention to these particular updates because I'd like to ask and also entertain the idea of IF the Devs did decide to show off more "proof" of the character creator "working", what exactly would you expect or hope to be different from the last several times we've seen the AB? Would it be the inclusion of aura selection? Prop selection? Animation selection? You can't keep speaking of visual proof but then not include what it is you mean by that, especially when you're going to go off and call a chart such as the one included in this week's update a "picture" when perhaps its been the closest thing we've gotten to any sort of roadmap at all.

Zerohour wrote:

They are relying on people like you to make assumptions and get all excited and they’re just sitting back saying nothing. That’s the wrong move at this point.

Well then if that be the case in what ways would you suggest that they say something whilst still adhering to the rules of their NDA and not be completely transparent about the information that they likely are dying to share but can't because they know of both their personal history of last minute changes/occurrences or even miscommunication?

Zerohour wrote:

To be honest with you, I am way way past the point of wanting or expecting anything.

I find this not to be true or else you've found yourself no longer needing to come back to these forums still sharing the same skepticism towards the Devs' development process. If you were way past the point of wanting or expecting anything then you wouldn't be back here demanding visual proof that something is working. Mind you, you're a Kickstarter backer anything that the Devs manage to spit out at this point is coming right to you first. People like me, who lack that Kickstarter badge underneath their forum name, are coming second. Literally when you take into consideration the Second Chance.

Zerohour wrote:

what I want is to see something happening, not a screenshot or a made up picture that says they’re doing stuff. I want to see things happening.

What would you define as seeing things happening though? If the first release of CoT is going to be a character creator and chat zone, I imagine there's not going to be much that they can show off beyond just the AB and maybe whatever the chat server will have packed inside it? I don't know, I think a lot of the stuff that you are wishing/wanting to see we likely won't see until we near closer to an actual release of Issue 1.

Zerohour wrote:

It always seems to be things happening behind the scenes that we can’t see. I also remember two or three years ago they hit one of their “milestones” and they promised we’d be seeing a lot more videos of things in action and a lot more music and everything else. Still waiting for that.

There's not much I can really comment on regarding that point. I mean, if a lot of the achievements are being done behind the scenes then it is what it is. Can't help that a major improvement or accomplishment is made in something that can't necessarily be viewed by the naked eye. When it comes to videos of things in action and music, perhaps that something they'd want to show off post-Avatar Builder stuff? In my mind, it would make sense to not show off too much in regards of powers and combat if, again, the first form of release for CoT is going to be a character creator where powers are disabled and you won't be able to even choose things like your archetypes, powers, and props. It would send the wrong message to those who don't visit these forums regularly and when the AB does drop and they see a video of a generic hero kicking ass and using their powers but then the player goes to AB and finds that they can't do that very same thing, it'll likely turn them away. I could be stretching here but thats the thought I'm having.

But some more music would be nice to here. I remember listening to a few of the tracks Hellwreckage released a few years back and thought it was awesome. They do need to step their game up on more videos or audio on music at least.

Amen Glitch.

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When release of the Avatar

When release of the Avatar Builder was linked to an actual game I'd like to have seen a video of an actual environment that characters interact with each other and surroundings to believe a game would ever come. It could have been as simple as a couple of colored balls in a large cube space. That we may be able to get the AB prior to a full game (however limited) being released mollifies me some as I don't see an actual lasting MMORPG ever coming either. So hopefully we'll at least get the AB for our money.

Otherwise the current state of things seems to be a lot of art pieces and background info, nothing approaching an interactive game. I hope to see changes in time in the project progress chart shown but MWM has yet to inspire confidence in me that it's getting there.

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fenianb wrote:
fenianb wrote:

Otherwise the current state of things seems to be a lot of art pieces and background info, nothing approaching an interactive game.

We've shown combat, interaction and chat, and players have made costumes with the builder. Granted we showed them separate modules, but we have much more than art pieces and info. Even before I joined the team and was a vocal critic, I'd seen those updates. I do recommend going back and reading a few, lots of good info there.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

We've shown combat, interaction and chat, and players have made costumes with the builder. Granted we showed them separate modules, but we have much more than art pieces and info. Even before I joined the team and was a vocal critic, I'd seen those updates. I do recommend going back and reading a few, lots of good info there.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood some updates since those were shown. I had thought the earlier interaction software which was displayed in those examples was scrapped and new work was being done since.

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One of the lovely things

One of the lovely things about being modular is that, just because we disassembled something doesn't mean it's scrapped. We are currently in a deep dive to do a complete rebuild on the character... assembled assets from animation to skeleton to weighting to various programming references that make up what the game considers a 'character' and as such everything's in small pieces. Things will go back together.

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fenianb wrote:
fenianb wrote:
warlocc wrote:

We've shown combat, interaction and chat, and players have made costumes with the builder. Granted we showed them separate modules, but we have much more than art pieces and info. Even before I joined the team and was a vocal critic, I'd seen those updates. I do recommend going back and reading a few, lots of good info there.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood some updates since those were shown. I had thought the earlier interaction software which was displayed in those examples was scrapped and new work was being done since.

Nothing scrapped, just not on the active burn pile as we focus on other areas which have a higher priority for integration at this moment. We know the systems work, and we need other systems integrated first is all.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I think we all know that if the game was released in full tomorrow and was perfect you’d gripe about it. I honestly believe at this point you are only on the boards to flame MWM. There’s no point in anyone trying to convince you that this isn’t a scam and that progress has been made, you’ve made up your mind, dug in your heels, and are heavily invested in your vitriol.

I'm not "griping" about anything that isn't true. Instead of trying to paint me with your brush, why not explain to me how anything I've said is wrong? And why is it, especially in forums like these, that when someone isn't drinking the kool-aid, that means they're just trolling or flaming? You think I have nothing better to do? You can assume whatever you like, but I work full-time, have a wife and two young children. My free time, what little there is, is extremely valuable and important. I have far better things to do than try to get people like you all excited. Once I've seen actual visual progress, I'll be more than happy to join you up in the clouds. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Empyrean wrote:

Ok, I have to defend Zero a little here.

While I don't personally agree with him, he's not wrong either. We haven't seen anything that is definitive proof of where MWM says they are with CoT. And there have been delays, broken promises and disappointments.

Let me be clear, I have tremendous respect for MWM for even considering the idea of making this game--much less freaking actually doing it. I believe they are telling us the truth and that they have had EPIC obstacles and are heroically carrying on. And I believe I just might play this game one day. And I think it will be amazing.

But, intolerance for dissenting voices isn't generally a good thing. Zero has been passionately contrarian, but as far as I've seen he has generally refrained from inappropriate forum behavior. I'm glad he's here.

PS- Juuust in case someone feels I'm being harsh to MWM, I have unintentionally broken sincere, well intended promises before, despite my very best efforts. Shit happens.

While you've made it clear you don't agree with me, I appreciate your voice of reason. You've always got a very cool head, and your tact when approaching situations like these is probably something I should try to emulate. But thanks for not labeling me negatively just because I don't tend to agree with the masses here.

Glitch404 wrote:

So it doesn't confirm the Avatar Builder is complete? Then what does? Even if this update came with an attached video of the completed Avatar Builder, I don't think there's a way for it to uniquely show that its finished unless there a big stamp across it saying "DONE". It would likely still be the same character creator we've seen in previous updates, albeit with a few added adjustments if any at all.

Well, it just so happens that's exactly the kind of confirmation I'm asking for. The chart says it's complete. How bout a video showing how it works? Why is that a problem?

Glitch404 wrote:

What kind of visual proof are you looking for exactly and what do you mean by "actually working"? ...You can't keep speaking of visual proof but then not include what it is you mean by that..."

I'm talking a video. Showing that it works. Progression, you know? That it looks more polished than it did 3 or 6 months ago. That there are more features, more options, more colors, more effects, etc. than the previous iteration. Need I go on?

Glitch404 wrote:

...in what ways would you suggest that they say something whilst still adhering to the rules of their NDA and not be completely transparent about the information that they likely are dying to share but can't because they know of both their personal history of last minute changes/occurrences or even miscommunication?

Firstly, if they have an NDA to their own game, I'm not aware of it. Sounds weird to be honest. And secondly, if they post a picture and then don't explain it or give any context to it, and just sit back and watch people hypothesize without adding any clarification, that's a poor tactic. Especially after their "history of last minute changes/occurrences/miscommunication".

Glitch404 wrote:

...If you were way past the point of wanting or expecting anything then you wouldn't be back here demanding visual proof that something is working. Mind you, you're a Kickstarter backer anything that the Devs manage to spit out at this point is coming right to you first.

You kind of answered your own question there, didn't you. But to add - I come back here and post because I've invested 6 years of my attention to this project. Because each time I check back in here, I'm hoping to be surprised. And mostly, because this forum needs a few voices that don't grin and nod to each mistake, broken promise, lack of progress or excuse that is handed out. People need to be disappointed, upset, or even pissed off. This is your money. Ask questions.

Glitch404 wrote:

What would you define as seeing things happening though? If the first release of CoT is going to be a character creator and chat zone, I imagine there's not going to be much that they can show off beyond just the AB and maybe whatever the chat server will have packed inside it? I don't know, I think a lot of the stuff that you are wishing/wanting to see we likely won't see until we near closer to an actual release of Issue 1.

I've kind of answered this already. I'm looking for improvements. Progression. Things getting better. Characters running around in the world. Using powers. Costumes. Music. I'm not saying it should be polished and ready for release. Just a point A to start from, gradually working towards completion. Tell me you understand what I'm saying??

Hablaguy28 wrote:

Amen Glitch

*eye roll*

warlocc wrote:

We've shown combat, interaction and chat, and players have made costumes with the builder. Granted we showed them separate modules, but we have much more than art pieces and info.

The last combat video was from AGES ago. The fire power set, right? And what interaction are you referring to exactly? As far as "players have made costumes with the builder", are you referring to the post about the first costume contest almost one year ago, or are you talking about the video from February? Either or, a lot of time has passed since then.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Video showing alpha-state AB

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Well, it just so happens that's exactly the kind of confirmation I'm asking for. The chart says it's complete. How bout a video showing how it works? Why is that a problem?

Its not necessarily a problem, just a bit odd for lack of better words. We've seen the character creator several times before and another video showing the "how it works" to simply throwing clothes and other accessories onto a character model just to prove that its done can make it easy for people to just label it as another video of the same character creator that still hasn't made it into the public's hands. Also despite how this sounds, I'm not justifying a reason to not whip up a video of the completed Avatar Builder, I'm just purposing the likely responses that are to accompany it once such thing is to ever come to pass.

Zerohour wrote:

I'm talking a video. Showing that it works. Progression, you know? That it looks more polished than it did 3 or 6 months ago. That there are more features, more options, more colors, more effects, etc. than the previous iteration. Need I go on?

This is definitely the kind of clarification I, myself, was looking for. On that note I'll agree with you because the showcasing of more features/options and especially colors were the big thing that struck most people. We saw things like a metallic cape, cloth/fabric-looking spandex, and I imagine even some hints of leather material patterns. In my opinion, the AB always did look polished just lacking in certain areas that were going to see some revisits in the future. Those certain areas definitely include options, colors, and effects.

Zerohour wrote:

Firstly, if they have an NDA to their own game, I'm not aware of it. Sounds weird to be honest. And secondly, if they post a picture and then don't explain it or give any context to it, and just sit back and watch people hypothesize without adding any clarification, that's a poor tactic. Especially after their "history of last minute changes/occurrences/miscommunication".

The NDA is primarily to the Unreal Engine 4 and/or Epic Games, if I'm not mistaken. Its weird and nerve-wracking to everyone, especially the Devs. I get that posting a photo without context or clarification to its meaning can be viewed as a poor tactic. But honestly how is it any different from how movies get teaser posters that have nothing more than a blank landscape with the movie's title and usually a release year? Or how comic book companies tease big and upcoming events in their comics by way of a teaser image that lacks context to what the event is about other than its something "world-breaking"? This loading screen image that had the community up-in-arms could merely be meant to get peoples' attention and keep a close eye on City of Titans during the final half of the year. If this be the case, then I say it definitely worked.

Zerohour wrote:

You kind of answered your own question there, didn't you. But to add - I come back here and post because I've invested 6 years of my attention to this project. Because each time I check back in here, I'm hoping to be surprised. And mostly, because this forum needs a few voices that don't grin and nod to each mistake, broken promise, lack of progress or excuse that is handed out. People need to be disappointed, upset, or even pissed off. This is your money. Ask questions.

I'm not really going to argue this point since it is true. You do have every right to ask questions especially when it is your money thats down on the line, but I must also make the point of a lot of these questions generally get answered with the same, usually ambiguous, responses.

Zerohour wrote:

I've kind of answered this already. I'm looking for improvements. Progression. Things getting better. Characters running around in the world. Using powers. Costumes. Music. I'm not saying it should be polished and ready for release. Just a point A to start from, gradually working towards completion. Tell me you understand what I'm saying??

I understand what you're saying and while I would love to see the very same things that you wish to see, its also the matter of things like using powers and seeing the in-game world may be videos and screenshots we won't see until once we finally move past this Avatar Builder situation first. At most, I imagine us seeing things like costumes and the different costume sets that'll be available at launch as well as the showing off of how versatile the character creator is or can be. But things like the in-game world and using powers is likely something that may be reserved for the months leading up to launch. It would be only reasonable in my mind.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

One of the lovely things about being modular is that, just because we disassembled something doesn't mean it's scrapped. We are currently in a deep dive to do a complete rebuild on the character... assembled assets from animation to skeleton to weighting to various programming references that make up what the game considers a 'character' and as such everything's in small pieces. Things will go back together.

Does this mean your "roadmap" will suffer from that regarding your first planned goals or maybe it way predictible ? What did decide you to rebuild the "character" ?
Even if it delays what was planned, it will probably improve the quality at the end. :) right ?


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

One of the lovely things about being modular is that, just because we disassembled something doesn't mean it's scrapped. We are currently in a deep dive to do a complete rebuild on the character... assembled assets from animation to skeleton to weighting to various programming references that make up what the game considers a 'character' and as such everything's in small pieces. Things will go back together.

Does this mean your "roadmap" will suffer from that regarding your first planned goals or maybe it way predictible ? What did decide you to rebuild the "character" ?
Even if it delays what was planned, it will probably improve the quality at the end. :) right ?

Just guessing here but as you allude to it yourself it's probably optimization in some form. Optimization can be more than just (visual) quality like rendering speed, CPU/GPU load, and memory foot print.

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Right :) I'm just curious on

Right :) I'm just curious on what push MWM to rebuilt it ^^


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Glitch404 wrote:
Glitch404 wrote:

Its not necessarily a problem, just a bit odd for lack of better words. We've seen the character creator several times before and another video showing the "how it works" to simply throwing clothes and other accessories onto a character model just to prove that its done can make it easy for people to just label it as another video of the same character creator that still hasn't made it into the public's hands. Also despite how this sounds, I'm not justifying a reason to not whip up a video of the completed Avatar Builder, I'm just purposing the likely responses that are to accompany it once such thing is to ever come to pass.

And why shouldn't people label it as such, assuming that's the case? They've had some form of AB working for a while now, if we are to believe the screenshots and videos. Not to mention that costume contest they did a year ago. Clearly its there. None of us are expecting a retail quality build. But I don't see why we can't play around with what they've got. We should have had our hands on *something* like what, 3 years ago?

Glitch404 wrote:

The NDA is primarily to the Unreal Engine 4 and/or Epic Games, if I'm not mistaken. Its weird and nerve-wracking to everyone, especially the Devs. I get that posting a photo without context or clarification to its meaning can be viewed as a poor tactic. But honestly how is it any different from how movies get teaser posters that have nothing more than a blank landscape with the movie's title and usually a release year? Or how comic book companies tease big and upcoming events in their comics by way of a teaser image that lacks context to what the event is about other than its something "world-breaking"?

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that we aren't personally financing The Matrix 4, so production companies hold no accountability to the general public. 2 or 3 years ago, I would have accepted a little teaser. But not now, not after the blunders we've all had to endure already.

Glitch404 wrote:

I'm not really going to argue this point since it is true. You do have every right to ask questions especially when it is your money thats down on the line, but I must also make the point of a lot of these questions generally get answered with the same, usually ambiguous, responses.

Which is another mistake. We shouldn't be getting ambiguity when it comes to direct questions being asked, especially when they dangle a carrot and then back away and laugh behind the curtain.

Glitch404 wrote:

...But things like the in-game world and using powers is likely something that may be reserved for the months leading up to launch. It would be only reasonable in my mind.

Let me tell you, if they don't have a general game world up and running by now for an avatar to run around in, maybe do a bit of flying, kill a few baddies...things are far worse than I thought.

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Yeah mate, I'll just hop on a plane and go see Cabbit. *shakes head*

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

...especially when they dangle a carrot and then back away and laugh behind the curtain.

I can't wait for them to grow out of this.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

...None of us are expecting a retail quality build. But I don't see why we can't play around with what they've got. We should have had our hands on *something* like what, 3 years ago?

Eh, that first line can be a bit debatable depending on who you ask. After being in development for six years I think people would expect something thats a retail quality build. After all, I do still remember people being able to point out some minute flaws or details in some of the previous showcasings of the AB. The thing is, would the public have been okay with that *something* that MWM, hypothetically, should've put out 3 years ago? This day-in-age if something isn't perfect, even if its subject to change or isn't the final product, they'll criticize the hell out of it.

Zerohour wrote:

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that we aren't personally financing The Matrix 4, so production companies hold no accountability to the general public. 2 or 3 years ago, I would have accepted a little teaser. But not now, not after the blunders we've all had to endure already.

A fair enough point I'll just say.

Zerohour wrote:

Which is another mistake. We shouldn't be getting ambiguity when it comes to direct questions being asked, especially when they dangle a carrot and then back away and laugh behind the curtain.

I agree with that notion.

Zerohour wrote:

Let me tell you, if they don't have a general game world up and running by now for an avatar to run around in, maybe do a bit of flying, kill a few baddies...things are far worse than I thought.

I never said that they didn't have a game world up and running. MWM has mentioned how modular the game is developmentally, so they literally can 'detach' a piece or section of the game from the larger project and work on it individually, kinda similar to a Lego set. If they were to have gone six whole years and haven't yet touched or begun work on the game world with their only achievement being the 'completed' Avatar Builder then, like you, things are far worse than I thought.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

...especially when they dangle a carrot and then back away and laugh behind the curtain.

I can't wait for them to grow out of this.

It honestly saddens me that this is taken seriously. No one. At all. Is doing this on our team.

When we have suffered set backs, it has been demoralizing and frustrating, which is compounded when our fans feel the same way. We want nothing but to do our best and get something out there for everyone to enjoy.

We aren’t a normal studio, and while we have a lot of changes for us ahead as a company and things will need to change, we will never be a “normal” studio I. The common sense. Just one that is functional in our unique space. It’s hard to do that when people are giving up their time. We wish we had the capability of a normal studio to produce the game in a way you all feel should be done.

We feel the same way.

But dang it, when we accomplish something, we are also very proud. People are working hard. We haven’t just given up additional time, but some have sacrificed personal resources to continue the work.

So please, with all honesty, I implore you, do not think us as some twisted people getting our kicks messing with others. We are people to. We care about what we do. We care about what people expect of us. We care about what we expect of ourselves. We know we can’t meet yours and our own expectations in every way in every time frame, but we do listen and we do consider feedback.

Insults such as this are unwarranted. They aren’t constructive. The demonize hard working, caring people, who love what they are trying to do.

I realize there is probably a lot of frustration fueling such statements. But please, take a step back and think of us as real people, not just handles and nicknames behind a screen. We never intend to disrespect others who come to the forums, and hopefully, reading all of this, a modicum if respect can be given back as well.


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I look at it like putting

I look at it like putting together a very large lego project. You make a bunch of sub assemblies that by themselves dont look like anything that makes sense. Then you make the main base structure. Then you place each of the subassemblies into place, which complete the project. I am thinking it will come together a lot quicker than many are thinking. The final polish to eliminate bugs may take a while longer, but that goes without saying. I could be wrong, its happened before.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

...especially when they dangle a carrot and then back away and laugh behind the curtain.

I can't wait for them to grow out of this.

It honestly saddens me that this is taken seriously. No one. At all. Is doing this on our team. /snip

Ok, whoa. Definitely not demonizing you guys. I was agreeing with the analogy and not implying any of the rest of your post. To give an example, the post a few weeks ago of the launcher. Do we know what was meant by the post? I would say no. The next post showed the launcher as a blue circle...so WIP. I imagine it's been a blue dot for a long time now. So that didn't clarify it, and neither has the team. Might not be a huge deal but it's annoying when something is shared but never explained.

Another example, at least to me and what I am personally thinking about when agreeing with that statement, is the new website. We saw some screenshots last year but have heard nothing since. Again, not a huge deal but never getting more info or clarification on things that are teased/talked about.

Obviously I'm not in the all-the-time-positive group of MWM fans...but I apologize if that's how you took my post. That's not what I meant at all. I have never thought that anyone on the team was just out to spite fans.

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I admit, ‘demonize’ was too

I admit, ‘demonize’ was too strong of a word, when it’s more akin to making us sound like childish pranksters at the very least. My emotion got the best of me there.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

My emotion got the best of me there.

That's what happens when you are passionate ^^ And that's why most of the followers here are "always positive" regarding MWM. We could all be critic and some of the "always positive" have been, including myself ! But, since 6 years, the first followers know how all of you have invest personal time. Really, and i'm speaking to every member of MWM, don't be upset by one ou two critics. You have a lot of people behind you, even if you don't see them on the forum and if sometimes some are disappointed.

We can say what we want, but the facts are here. As far as i know, i have (real and verified) visitors from all the world on titanscity.com who are looking for informations about City of Titans. French of course, but also Canadians, Italians, people from Norway, germany, Romania, UK, Sweden and even Switzerland ! They mainly go to read the download page but each article which deals with Beta or the avatar creator have a lot of visitors (and i am the first surprised about the numbers for a personal website without communication campain)
It's not because one or 2 people are disappointed it means everyone is disappointed. Really keep in mind that you are followed by far more than people on the forum :) Keep your head straight, be proud and stay strong ! Are you heroes or sidekicks ?? :D

(Now and it's really personal, critcism is good but sometimes, i think it becomes unfair, espacially for a volunteer studio and that's why (yes this is my answer to the too-much-critic reactions of some of us) we can be a little more flexible and understanding compared to a real big studio)


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I took Dark Cleric's comment

I took Dark Cleric's comment to mean simply that cryptic updates like the launcher screen a couple weeks ago with no further explanation are less than helpful. I think at this point, given the setbacks the project has experienced and doubts a number of people are having, that only clear, straightforward updates are really constructive in keeping the playerbase engaged in a positive way.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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*the following message is

*the following message is just my opinion, I don't want to throw oil on the fire. If needed, don't hesitate to moderate my post*

Cinnder wrote:

cryptic updates like the launcher screen a couple weeks ago with no further explanation are less than helpful.

I think it was just a teaser. Maybe not published in the good manner, but i think it was just that. I don't understand why this could be a point a disappointement :/ To me, If it's not enought for some people...so i just would like to say to them "don't care about it, let it go", it's not so important. But i don't understand the goal of focalizing on a (some) problem(s) which is not one ^^
MWM are doing their best. Maybe not as a big studio. They are not perfect. But we already knew that at the early beginning, 6 years ago (and, with all the time i spend on giving news on titanscity.com withtout having a real internal relationship with MWM, believe me i could have been be more critic and upset since i'm "working" for them, for the game, without even being in the team). However, I keep in mind that MWM is a volunteer studio. What did people expected ? Something like SONY or Bethesda ? Come on! :) Seriously … Sometimes it seems to me that some points become something really out of purpose.
It's something that sometimes isirrelevant and provokes reactions that I see as out of the ordinary. It is really because MWM is a volunteer studio that I am less critical and always positive. If it were a big studio with a lot of resources, indeed, I would also be in the front line to express criticism.

I know, maybe my answer looks like a drama and i don't want to begin a debate here since it's not the purpose ^^ It's just to give another point of view and, i hope, let's people keep in mind that we are "talking" with a human size volunteer studio. Kind of like a group of buddies, not like with a big group in their huge office. So, i think we should react in the same proportion and not be so critic just for a simple screen :)


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

cryptic updates like the launcher screen a couple weeks ago with no further explanation are less than helpful.

I think it was just a teaser. Maybe not published in the good manner, but i think it was just that. I don't understand why this could be a point a disappointement...

Honestly, I do understand why people would find something so cryptic to be frustrating, especially after all this time. After such a long wait, something so ambiguous can feel...like somebody's playing a joke on you. I know that no jokes are being played, but I can certainly understand where Zero, Cinnder et al. are coming from when they feel that way.

Quote:

...MWM are doing their best. Maybe not as a big studio. They are not perfect. But we already knew that at the early beginning, 6 years ago (and, with all the time i spend on giving news on titanscity.com withtout having a real internal relationship with MWM, believe me i could have been be more critic and upset since i'm "working" for them, for the game, without even being in the team). However, I keep in mind that MWM is a volunteer studio.
It's something that sometimes isirrelevant and provokes reactions that I see as out of the ordinary. It is really because MWM is a volunteer studio that I am less critical and always positive. If it were a big studio with a lot of resources, indeed, I would also be in the front line to express criticism.

I think this is the point that I feel is important, but I feel like being a volunteer studio doesn't mean as much to some as it does others. There's definitely a mindset with some people of "Volunteer or not, a promise was made and broken," and it's hard to reconcile that with the other, opposing view here that MWM should be, at least partly, forgiven for the extremely common problem of a newbie dev team that bit off more than they could fully take on in the timeframe they gave, and suffered unanticipated setbacks that pushed things out even further.

It doesn't help when the former folks see the latter as apologists, and the latter see the former as complainers. I really think there is some validity to the complaints of how long it's taken to get here, but I don't think they or anyone else will really be served by ripping on a team of developers that have mostly never done this before, working on an MMO, which is notorious for being difficult and time-consuming to develop even in comparison to other games.

I don't really think I have a thesis here, I just think I'm trying to understand where the two main camps stand here.

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TitansCity, I don't think

TitansCity, I don't think there was anything wrong with your post. You are always polite and considerate, even when you disagree.

To your comment 'I don't understand why this could be a point a disappointment' I'd say for some folks it's because what was supposed to be an update actually provided little to no concrete information, so I can see how that would have been disappointing. I think such cryptic updates might have been fun for some folks back when everything seemed on schedule, but since the missed deadline of last year a number of people have had their faith in MWM shaken. Although I'm not one of those people, if I worked for MWM I'd suggest that they stick to only clear, informative updates like the most recent one with the project tracker. Not that even that will please everyone, as we have seen, but I think it's the best they can do now.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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@ Malonkey1

@ Malonkey1
@Cinnder

First, thanks for answering and sharing your opinion :) (@Cinnder, thank for your return ^^ it's probably because i avoid posting "on fire" and write, erase, rewrite, erase until i'm almost sure my translation will not be misunderstandable <-- i'm not sure this word is existing at all :D)
And…Ok,If we take a little height, then we all agree. Communication is not fully developed and gives the impression that there is no real communication policy.
But for all that, I remain convinced that sometimes, some opinions (on the forum but I also invite you to read facebook and reddit) are really violent unfortunately. And it's sometimes disproportionate (that's why I indicated that you have to keep in mind the difference between a volunteer studio and a big studio)


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Quote:
Quote:

It doesn't help when the former folks see the latter as apologists, and the latter see the former as complainers.

I've more or less quit posting here completely because I'm pretty sure I'm on the 'Bad List' now despite putting nearly a grand into this thing.

Puny Heroes.

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You're not on my bad list :p

You're not on my bad list :p

(Which doesn't really exist btw)


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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

I've more or less quit posting here completely because I'm pretty sure I'm on the 'Bad List' now despite putting nearly a grand into this thing.

I don't think Santa makes his list by checking these forums.

I do think posters who express themselves clearly, even in dissatisfied ways, and don't attack other posters, can still be considered 'good'.

If you say, "I am unhappy about this," what can anyone say, without looking 'bad'? It's only when people imply negative motivations, that the 'flame wars' begin.

I regret that I cannot play CoT, yet. More because I have to Work, than because MWM hasn't finished it, yet. I'm looking forward to a time when I can play.

Meanwhile, I'm happier with a positive outlook.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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i'm curious as to why you

i'm curious as to why you would sign an nda for your own game

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I defended Zero earlier

I defended Zero earlier because I do think those with complaints get a bit piled up on... generally by people trying to be positive and show support for MWM. So it's a tricky situation because dissenting voices get somewhat squelched, but not from a negative place--from an attempt to stay positive and show support.

And, honestly, as long as it all stays at least fairly civil, I think it's generally all valid. MWM is way past multiple stated deadlines, has made some missteps, isn't always stellar with communication, and hasn't been able to show much. But they were the ones who were heroically crazy enough to even attempt this for everyone, they have hit multiple unavoidable major setbacks, some of their good decisions (like going with UE4 and modular design) have made it difficult for them to show progress, and yet they're still going strong even though it has to be even more frustrating for them than for us.

I honestly see both sides, but I remain genuinely positive and supportive. I think they're absolutely heroic and they're gonna do it, and I think the game will be amazing. But at any rate it's going to be a while whether we choose to wait patiently and support, constructively criticize, or throw in the towel and forget about it in the mean time.

Last thing I'll say is MWM doesn't have to be perfect to be amazing. No one is, and the best heroes aren't.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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chmeggma wrote:
chmeggma wrote:

i'm curious as to why you would sign an nda for your own game

It makes more sense, I think, if you remember that the "your" in your post is plural. Whichever dev is the antecedent of the "you", it's not just his/her game, it's their game. So only the persons they have selected to make the decision can decide, "It's time to release this info." And even they have likely signed the NDA, just in case they leave the company or even just take a break to deal with their real jobs, and the decision passes to someone else.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I defended Zero earlier because I do think those with complaints get a bit piled up on... generally by people trying to be positive and show support for MWM. So it's a tricky situation because dissenting voices get somewhat squelched, but not from a negative place--from an attempt to stay positive and show support.

And, honestly, as long as it all stays at least fairly civil, I think it's generally all valid.

Agreed.

I draw the line when MWM is blatantly accused of fraud, and there are claims that their screenshots and status update are fake. At that point you’ve gone from dissenter to troll, because once you claim that MWM can’t be trusted you no longer have any way to provide useful input (critical or not). If you really felt they were running a scam why post here anymore? You’d be better off posting at the BBB web site.

You don’t see me posting on Cloud Imperium’s forums about how their game is a scam (I honestly believe it’s a variant of a Ponzi Scheme) because I’d be there just to stir things up. I know my comments would just rile up fans and not help anything.

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chmeggma wrote:
chmeggma wrote:

i'm curious as to why you would sign an nda for your own game

You have to remember, we're all volunteers. All the way up to Warcabbit himself. Some of us come and go, sometimes leave the project because of our actual careers or lives, and so on.

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