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Discuss: How it Works - Masteries

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: How it Works - Masteries

We're finally ready to pump out all this information for you. Don't forget to check under the Character menu for a lot more information about ALL the mastery sets planned for launch.

Read the update here

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Dark Cleric
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Fan-freaking-tastic!

Fan-freaking-tastic!

This is great, detailed information!

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Lothic
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Thanks Shadow Elusive! ;)

Thanks Shadow Elusive! ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

alltrueist
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Love it! It seems like Tanks

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

The Altruist, Invulnerability/Super Strength Stalwart.

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Ohh, real nice.

Ohh, real nice.

Lothic
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alltrueist wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

I'm fairly sure some MWM Redname has mentioned the concept of "multiple builds" for our CoT characters. CoH allowed for up to 3 builds per character by the end so I would think CoT would eventually offer something similar.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

blacke4dawn
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alltrueist wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

They have said that we'll get 3 builds, one for PvE, one for PvP, and last one choosable. Iirc we'll also be able to change everything except the primary power set in builds/respecs.

Lothic
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

They have said that we'll get 3 builds, one for PvE, one for PvP, and last one choosable. Iirc we'll also be able to change everything except the primary power set in builds/respecs.

Yep... this more or less. Not exactly sure you "must" have a dedicated build for PvE and/or PvP. You can use these builds for these things if you want but you could also "use" them or "call" them anything you want. In other words you don't have to have a "pvp build" if you don't PvP. Like CoH these builds can be used for anything you want.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

blacke4dawn
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

They have said that we'll get 3 builds, one for PvE, one for PvP, and last one choosable. Iirc we'll also be able to change everything except the primary power set in builds/respecs.

Yep... this more or less. Not exactly sure you "must" have a dedicated build for PvE and/or PvP. You can use these builds for these things if you want but you could also "use" them or "call" them anything you want. In other words you don't have to have a "pvp build" if you don't PvP. Like CoH these builds can be used for anything you want.

I distinctly remember them saying that one was "earmarked" for PvE and PvP (as in usable only under that ruleset) respectively with the last one choosable. Maybe it's just my memory or maybe it's changed.

However, I do hope that either all get to be choosable and/or we'll be able to buy more.

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I *so* can't wait to play

I *so* can't wait to play this game!

Quick question: when the Balance mastery powers say 'teamed allies' does that mean self is not included? I'm guessing this based on the fact that the Focus set specifically says 'you and your teamed allies.'

Spurn all ye kindle.

Cinnder
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Also, it looks like the

Also, it looks like the Surprise Strike set is at least part of what we'd need to re-create a Stalker-like experience, but these powers seem to rely on lowered Threat and controls.

Will there be access for Enforcers to powers that lower Threat or do controls (maybe Tertiaries?) or would these powers rely on teammates, thus making this mastery set not quite as useful in solo play?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Yeah, it's some good

Yeah, it's some good informations about masteries.
Customization is everywhere, I like it !!

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I am so going to play the

I am so going to play the absolute $#!* out of this game.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Lothic
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

They have said that we'll get 3 builds, one for PvE, one for PvP, and last one choosable. Iirc we'll also be able to change everything except the primary power set in builds/respecs.

Yep... this more or less. Not exactly sure you "must" have a dedicated build for PvE and/or PvP. You can use these builds for these things if you want but you could also "use" them or "call" them anything you want. In other words you don't have to have a "pvp build" if you don't PvP. Like CoH these builds can be used for anything you want.

I distinctly remember them saying that one was "earmarked" for PvE and PvP (as in usable only under that ruleset) respectively with the last one choosable. Maybe it's just my memory or maybe it's changed.

However, I do hope that either all get to be choosable and/or we'll be able to buy more.

The only problem with the idea of these builds being "earmarked" like you said would be that such a restriction would actually make these 3 builds LESS useful than they were in CoH. Again in CoH you could "use" your three builds for anything you wanted. Now I could see a Redname saying that "one could be for PvE and another for PvP" as an implied example of what you could do with them, not what you must do with them.

As someone not super-interested in PvP I might want to organize the builds of my characters around "solo" play, "team" play and "raid" play.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Real quick nuts-n-bolts about

Real quick nuts-n-bolts about the update page: It looks like you used the Commander icon for Operator. It was the older version of the Operator Icon, but that was before Operator and Commander switched roles. Also, those tables are difficult to read. Since they appear as predominantly columns, it would be far easier to read them if the tiers were listed vertically and each column was a Mastery Set.

I'll have comments on the content separately.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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So, Lost_Deep and I have been

So, Lost_Deep and I have been discussing the masteries as they stand and the biggest standout problem, balance-wise, that we've seen is the Balance Mastery. Due to he fact that Attack Rolls are generally assumed to be a hit except for when the target has an evasion or block effect in play, the Tier 2 power feels situationally useful at best, and almost entirely worthless at worst. The tier 3 power, meanwhile, provides an explicitly very light buff in exchange for a teammate dying, of all things. In the best kind of setup, nobody goes down at all, making this situationally useful at best for low-end groups and almost literally a wasted mastery point for high-end groups.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

Dark Cleric
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I just had a random question.

I just had a random question. For the Ranged mastery Kill Streak it says "Kill Streak: Each time you defeat a target you receive a buff to your critical chance and a improved recharge for a short duration. These effects stack."

My question is on how CoT defines 'defeat' a target. Is that decided by the killing blow? If so, will 'kill stealing' be a thing? If you are in a group and multiple teammates are attacking that target, will that 'defeat' count as a defeat for each person? or only who gets the killing blow? or by who does the most damage to it? or perhaps by who dealt damage first?

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Lost Deep
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Let me start by saying thank

Let me start by saying thank you, I'm very excited, and I'm about to list the things that worry me only because if I posted all the things I LOVE I'd be re-hashing the entire update. This is simply great.

Apart from that, minor concerns:
Battle Leader might be a feast-or-famine situation depending on how cooperative your team is. That said, the Tier 1 should be good whether your team is cooperative or not so *shrug*.

Surprise Strike: Seems like a very team-oriented mastery, but will likely see more use post-launch when the melee/manipulation spec comes out.

Inspiration: I'm not sure how this one will pan out. The base idea is fine, but it will depend on the fine details of the range of the effects and the numbers.

Balance: Tier 2 and 3 abilities are worryingly specific and it's possible that they'll never come up in a mission. I get what you were going for, but the situational requirements will be a harshly limiting factor.

Supremacy: If the supremacy bonus is high enough this will be amazing, but I'm worried the balance will be finicky since this is the only mastery that COSTS you momentum.

Other musings:
I like how the Stalwart masteries kind of touch on the different types of tank in video games: The 'true' tank, the bruiser, and the support tank.

Headhunter from surprise strike might be worth getting it even for a solo player.

The Ranger masteries are all amazing.

Aftermath gives me character ideas.

Balance: I appreciate that you're inspired by the kheldian passives from CoH and are trying to make it good.

Thank you and keep up the good work, I'd love nothing less than to see my worries thoroughly disproven.

Under Construction...

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I *so* can't wait to play this game!

Quick question: when the Balance mastery powers say 'teamed allies' does that mean self is not included? I'm guessing this based on the fact that the Focus set specifically says 'you and your teamed allies.'

When not in a group, you are considered a "group of one".

Cinnder wrote:

Also, it looks like the Surprise Strike set is at least part of what we'd need to re-create a Stalker-like experience, but these powers seem to rely on lowered Threat and controls.

Will there be access for Enforcers to powers that lower Threat or do controls (maybe Tertiaries?) or would these powers rely on teammates, thus making this mastery set not quite as useful in solo play?

Primarily, if you want to avoid "threat" and sneak up on a target, you'll want to get a Stealth Tertiary Set.
Don't forget there may be powers in your primary melee that contain controlls. You can also snag controls in Tertiaries. Some Support Sets may have a control power which will be a Secondary for Enforcers later down the line.

Halae wrote:

So, Lost_Deep and I have been discussing the masteries as they stand and the biggest standout problem, balance-wise, that we've seen is the Balance Mastery. Due to he fact that Attack Rolls are generally assumed to be a hit except for when the target has an evasion or block effect in play, the Tier 2 power feels situationally useful at best, and almost entirely worthless at worst. The tier 3 power, meanwhile, provides an explicitly very light buff in exchange for a teammate dying, of all things. In the best kind of setup, nobody goes down at all, making this situationally useful at best for low-end groups and almost literally a wasted mastery point for high-end groups.

Accuracy does more than help you hit evasive people, so there will be other benefits to having improved accuracy. There will also be enemies that are evasive and harder to hit. This also applies when attacks are a result of a Miss, which is rather like a to-hit debuff. Having increased Accuracy for those situations, while situational yes, can also end up turning the tide in an otherwise difficult fight. The same goes their the T3 of the Mastery. Yes, when everything goes right, it may not be useful, but when a situation goes poorly, those that survive getting increased buffs can really turn things around. Not every Mastery is always going to provide a directly useful or always be beneficial in every circumastance. Many have requirements or situations that make them useful.

*edit* I should add that the Momentum buff in the T3 should not be discounted. Think of the defeated group members and the Gusrdian’s momentum as multipliers and a small buff can end up being significant.

Dark Cleric wrote:

I just had a random question. For the Ranged mastery Kill Streak it says "Kill Streak: Each time you defeat a target you receive a buff to your critical chance and a improved recharge for a short duration. These effects stack."

My question is on how CoT defines 'defeat' a target. Is that decided by the killing blow? If so, will 'kill stealing' be a thing? If you are in a group and multiple teammates are attacking that target, will that 'defeat' count as a defeat for each person? or only who gets the killing blow? or by who does the most damage to it? or perhaps by who dealt damage first?

There are two things here: an assist, something one group member has done that helped result in defeating a target, like having a debuff or a control on a target. Another is what this Mastery specifically calls for, your character getting that final shot or directly causing the target to be defeated. Kill Stealing would mean only the character causing the defeat gets any credit. If there are a group of people attacking a target, everyone still gets credit for the fight, but this Mastery specifcally requires getting that final hit in to begin providing its buff.

Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

Love it! It seems like Tanks get (1) a threat-based defensive mastery, (2) a debuff-focused offensive mastery, and (3) a team-buff-focused group leadership mastery.

My question: will we be able to create builds, so that my main could have a defensive mastery when he needs it and an offensive mastery when he's solo? Or will we be relegated to full respecs? Or will we be stuck with our masteries forever?

They have said that we'll get 3 builds, one for PvE, one for PvP, and last one choosable. Iirc we'll also be able to change everything except the primary power set in builds/respecs.

Yep... this more or less. Not exactly sure you "must" have a dedicated build for PvE and/or PvP. You can use these builds for these things if you want but you could also "use" them or "call" them anything you want. In other words you don't have to have a "pvp build" if you don't PvP. Like CoH these builds can be used for anything you want.

I distinctly remember them saying that one was "earmarked" for PvE and PvP (as in usable only under that ruleset) respectively with the last one choosable. Maybe it's just my memory or maybe it's changed.

However, I do hope that either all get to be choosable and/or we'll be able to buy more.

The only problem with the idea of these builds being "earmarked" like you said would be that such a restriction would actually make these 3 builds LESS useful than they were in CoH. Again in CoH you could "use" your three builds for anything you wanted. Now I could see a Redname saying that "one could be for PvE and another for PvP" as an implied example of what you could do with them, not what you must do with them.

As someone not super-interested in PvP I might want to organize the builds of my characters around "solo" play, "team" play and "raid" play.

I should clarify: You start with 3 builds, one for PvE, one for PvP, and one extra was the basic wording used long ago. You can use all 3 builds as you choose. We were just saying that we're providing builds to cover both main phases of the game and one extra. Not that they were specific only for those phases. That would end up too restrictive for someone who wanted to leave either phase and enter the other - if you had to prep for the switch by filling out another build first, it could create too much of a chore, thus making it a barrier for entry either way. Especially since, well the PvP phase aslo has PvE in it since it is a copy of the city, just with the PvP flag turned on for everyone.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
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Tech Team.
Cinnder
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I *so* can't wait to play this game!

Quick question: when the Balance mastery powers say 'teamed allies' does that mean self is not included? I'm guessing this based on the fact that the Focus set specifically says 'you and your teamed allies.'

When not in a group, you are considered a "group of one".

Cinnder wrote:

Also, it looks like the Surprise Strike set is at least part of what we'd need to re-create a Stalker-like experience, but these powers seem to rely on lowered Threat and controls.

Will there be access for Enforcers to powers that lower Threat or do controls (maybe Tertiaries?) or would these powers rely on teammates, thus making this mastery set not quite as useful in solo play?

Primarily, if you want to avoid "threat" and sneak up on a target, you'll want to get a Stealth Tertiary Set.
Don't forget there may be powers in your primary melee that contain controlls. You can also snag controls in Tertiaries. Some Support Sets may have a control power which will be a Secondary for Enforcers later down the line.

Thanks for the reply. I'm very pleased with these answers, and the update in general. (Apologies: now that you mention the Stealth tertiary I think you've told us this before.) You must be happy to finally be able to discuss these details after all the hard work you've put in.

I also like the general artwork style that has started to accompany updates.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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As someone also not very

As someone also not very interested in PVP, I'm likely to do something like 'solo', 'team' and 'experimental madness'. Or just trying three different mastery setups. We'll see how easy it is to prepare an entire alternate build.

Under Construction...

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Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

As someone also not very interested in PVP, I'm likely to do something like 'solo', 'team' and 'experimental madness'. Or just trying three different mastery setups. We'll see how easy it is to prepare an entire alternate build.

The cool thing about the way the build system is supposed to work in CoT (where pretty much everything is changeable except the primary powerset) is that having 3 build slots will actually be -meaningfully- useful.

What I mean by that is that back in CoH you could barely change ENOUGH about the average character to have 3 significantly different builds. Having 2 was usually more than enough. But with all the secondary powerset and mastery options a single CoT character could seriously have 3 very different builds. Heck with the options available most characters could realistically branch out with maybe 6 or even more builds and -still- have them all be very functionally unique.

So instead of 3 build slots being almost pointless (as it was in CoH) it'll actually require serious trade-off planning in CoT to make the "best use" of the 3 we have. Tannim did say "You start with 3 builds" so I guess we'll see if we can actually eventually have more than 3 or not.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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This is a ton of info! Loved

This is a ton of info! Loved the read! A lot of meat n potatos of how we can build our characters. I especially like that masteriesstart so much earlier in the game than they had in COH.

I agree with others here that the variety of masteries for each playstyle really lends itself to the various types of each character we can find in comics within a chosen class(playstyle). This really helps with creating/rounding out our concept characters.

Great work! Can’t wait to play!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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Well it's City of Titans. At

Well it's City of Titans. At a certain point we say 'get an alt'. If we enabled too many builds it would be a 'one character to rule them all' game, like Mabinogi, where there's a very short list of real reasons to have another character. Everyone can learn everything.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Well it's City of Titans. At a certain point we say 'get an alt'. If we enabled too many builds it would be a 'one character to rule them all' game, like Mabinogi, where there's a very short list of real reasons to have another character. Everyone can learn everything.

In CoH there was (IIRC) a 10 minute cool-off timer between build switches pretty much to eliminate a player's ability to effectively "Swiss army knife" their way around by constantly switching builds. I would assume CoT will use a similar mechanic regardless of how many builds any one character can ultimately have.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Comments on the update

Comments on the update (1 of 2):

  • Stalwart:
    • Living Target
      • Intimidating Presence: How will the taunt work in PvP? Does it automatically shift locked targets onto you so that affected opposing players would have to retarget their intended targets?
    • Bruiser looks like it is proving the adage that the best weapon to use against a tank is another tank.
    • Battle Leader
      • Frontline Defender: How is the Stalwart player going to know who is or who is not covered by their 6 O'clock cone?
      • Will the teammates of the Battle Leader be able to see the reverse cone as a persistent ground AoE effect?
      • Will the player be able to customize the appearance of their 6 o'clock cone?
      • Will there be a range limit to this 6 o'clock cone?
      • will the 6 o'clock cone work only against opponents in front of the Battle Leader? Or will the affects apply versus any opponent in any location?
      • Is it safe to assume that the "allies target you" will work for your allies using the target of target (also called assist in some games) attack command? It seems like this would be the purpose.
  • Enforcer
    • Rage
      • Explosive Rage: "our" should be "your"
      • Explosive Rage: Does it matter who strikes the killing blow to get the "Defeat Enemy" buff?
    • Surprise Strike
      • Waylay: Will there be ways for a character to reduce their threat rating? Is this something that will appear in Tertiary powers?
      • Exploitive Attack: If the target is controlled by more than one control effect, is the bonus to crit rate cumulative with the control effects, or does it just use the one with the highest magnitude?
      • Headhunter: Nice feature, as this will make stalkers more desirable teammates in Boss instances even though they are not able to take advantage of their stealth in long battles after their initial attack.
    • Inspiration
      • Rally: "Rally does not stack" does this include overlaid rally effects from multiple enforcers, or just repeated attacks from the same enforcer will not stack the rally effect?
      • Rally: If Rally does not stack, does a Rally with more momentum override a Rally with less momentum? Will a Rally with less momentum override a rally with more momentum?
      • Bolster: Same questions about "Bolster does not stack" as for Rally above.
      • Overcome: Same questions about "Overcome does not stack" as for Bolster and Rally above.
      • Overcome: "Defeating anything greater than a boss generates all these effects" This does not seem to be very beneficial, since usually combat is over or very nearly over when something greater than a boss is defeated.
      • Overcome: Would opposing players count as something greater than a boss in PvP?
  • Ranger
    • Eliminator
      • Debilitate: Debilitate effects do not stack. Does this mean debilitate effects from the same Ranger do not stack, or all debilitate effects from all Rangers do not stack on any target?
      • Kill Streak: Does it matter who makes the killing blow for the buff to proc?
    • Resolve:
      • As with other powers, does it matter who makes the killing blow for these effects to proc?
      • The following sentence does not make sense to me and should probably be reworded: "Scaling from Mook through Monster ranks in effect gained by defeated target."
      • I like that because they stack, the buffs increase by not only the level of the defeated opponent, but also the number of them defeated. This could lead to some fun mental calculus as players try to figure out if they want to nuke the thugs first or kill the agent or boss first. I'm all for that kind of complexity in combat.
    • Suppression
      • Covering Fire: The same questions apply about multiple players stacking or not.
      • Since the magnitude of the buff is determined by momentum, and since the buffs do not stack, does a Suppression attack with more momentum override a Suppression attack with less momentum? Will a Suppression attack with less momentum override a Suppression attack with more momentum?

I'm stopping here because I'm getting afraid I'll hit the wrong key and delete it all. Will continue in the next post.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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*crackles.maniacally*

*cackles maniacally*

This keeps looking better! ^_^

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Well it's City of Titans. At a certain point we say 'get an alt'. If we enabled too many builds it would be a 'one character to rule them all' game, like Mabinogi, where there's a very short list of real reasons to have another character. Everyone can learn everything.

This foundation philosophy is one of the reasons I have a great amount of faith in this game.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I'm stopping here because I'm getting afraid I'll hit the wrong key and delete it all. Will continue in the next post.

Lol I actually use an offline editor for my longer "rough drafts" precisely for reasons like this. BTW, good feedback so far.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Well it's City of Titans. At a certain point we say 'get an alt'. If we enabled too many builds it would be a 'one character to rule them all' game, like Mabinogi, where there's a very short list of real reasons to have another character. Everyone can learn everything.

This foundation philosophy is one of the reasons I have a great amount of faith in this game.

So a good question at this point might be are 3 builds going to be a "starting point" as Tannim implied or will we actually be limited to a max of 3 as we were in CoH? Knowing how many builds each character can have could be a serious factor for people deciding how many alts they might decide to make.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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While some things have me

While some things have me worried, I have to say, the way the powers are going to be done, have me intrigued and excited :)

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So my Plague Doctor character

So my Plague Doctor character is definatly using the suppression mastery

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Huckleberry,

Huckleberry,

Check the description of Living Target under the Character Tab for the Mastery Sets again. The T1 and 2 both utilize Momentum.

Taunt is a control effect that forces affected powers to target the originator of the Taunt.

Frontline Defender: The user can position the camera appropriately,and there will likely be a UI icon to indicate the number of group members being covered - no promise on that, but it is my intent at least. Yes group members will be able to see the AoE indicator. It can't be customized, other than perhaps each player choosing whether or not to see AoE indicators in the settings individually. The AoE cover cone works for anyone in the cone, regardless of where the attack is coming from. We would love to have the attacks be determined by orientation of the origination of the attack to the orientation of the FLD, but for simplicity sake of coding, we had to be lenient.

Explosive Rage: the player using this Mastery must be the one to defeat the target, that is getting the final attack in for the effect to occur.

Waylay: I already answered the question see above.
Exploitive Attack: The Crit Rate buff is determined by how well the target is controlled. Controls being non-binary, a fully controlled target will provide the maximum benefit. The buff always goes by how well controlled the target is.

Inspiration does not stack from the same originator. It can stack from separate originators.
Overcome, who says there will only ever be 1 enemy greater than a Boss around, or that another battle won't ensue when something greater than a Boss is defeated?

Debilitate does not stack from the same originator.
Kill Streak, already answered, see above.

Resolve: Yes, the originator must strike the final attack.

Covering Fire does not stack from the same originator. Usually, any effect that does not stack from the same originator will refresh with the most current application of the same effect.


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Comments on the update (2 of

Comments on the update (2 of 2):

  • Guardian
    • Saving Grace
      • Umbrage: Is it safe to assume that for multi-targeted buffs, the affect is going to be different for each ally depending upon their health?
      • Disgrace: We have seen examples of powers that have a secondary effect in a small AoE around the target once the target is affected by the power. Does Disgrace also propagate to these?
      • Salvation: "If you or a teamed ally defeat an enemy within a medial range of your presence, a heal will produce off the defeated enemy." How will we know if the enemy is within range for this heal to proc or not?
    • Aftermath
      • Inundation: Is this AoE persistent such that any who enter it while it lasts gets the debuff, or is it instantaneous affecting only those opponents who were in the AoE at the time it proc'd, and then the effects last for the new duration on those targets?
      • Accretion. I just want to make sure I understand this. For inundation, the size of the AoE and number of affected targets is affected by our momentum but the strength of the rebuff is not. Accretion only affects the magnitude of the debuff itself, correct?
      • There is no mention of stacking. If multiple enemies are defeated does each proc a debuff field, and would these fields stack?
    • Balance
      • Balance of Power: I think it would be far more impactful for these buffs to be affected by the Guardian's momentum rather than their own. It would really make the party take notice of the their Guardian teammate when they see their numbers rise and fall. But this could depend on what mechanic you have given to Guardians to increase their momentum. Because whatever mechanic that is, the team would want to maximize it for this Balance of Power buff-buff.
      • Tip the Scales will need a lot of tweaking in game testing. I predict it will have to be a very hefty buff for it to mean anything. Otherwise it will either get lost in fluctuations of the RNG or in the vagaries of "how much evasion did that guy really have, anyway?" or it will be worthless in teams larger than 2 when there are so many attacks happening that a hit will be bound to occur anyway (thereby eliminating the buff)
      • Life and Death. Not a good mechanic. I can imagine a Guardian telling a teammate to die sooner rather than later because the Guardian's momentum is dropping. I understand you don't want this to become another vengeance in which it is better for the team to get the buff from a teammate dying than to keep the teammate alive. So you have to make the buffs "very light." But if the buffs are going to be "very light" why do it at all, especially as a tier 3 mastery. This one really needs to change.
  • Operator
    • Magnitude
      • Overwhelm: What is a critical control, and how is it different from a non-critical control?
      • Intensity: "Your Momentum increases the chance landing a critical hit with a control power" I assume that a critical hit with a control power is not the same as a critical control or landing a critical control effect. Because a critical hit with a control power would take into account both damage and control effects, while a critical control is just the control side of that, correct?
      • Protraction: "Each control power landing a critical hit provides a very light amount of Power back to your Power meter." Power meter? What the heck is a power meter?
      • Protraction: "Protraction does not stack recharge reduction on the same power but will reset the duration." So the recharge reduction buffs associated with this mastery set are assigned to the individual powers that proc them? Why not a global recharge buff?
    • Focus
      • Attack into submission: Interesting. I can see teammates tag-teaming on a controlled target to keep it controlled until defeated by constantly refreshing the duration buff. This will not be viewed kindly by the PvP community.
      • Quicken Resolve appears to affect all teammates any time a controlled target is hit. Is this correct?
      • Payback. Again with he Power Meter. And it also appears to apply the buff to all teammates regardless of who attacks the controlled target.
      • For this Mastery set, does it matter if the controlled target is attacked by a teammate or not?
    • Supremecy.
      • This has an interesting mechanic that is far more impactful than any other mastery set we have seen so far. The actual depletion of momentum to zero.
      • I like how this set also provides for increased momentum generation as well; and while I understand this is to create a momentum rollercoaster with he Overpower effect, I believe the unintended consequences of this will extend into the creation of reserves. Beware the unintended consequences.

That's it at my first pass. I'm sure I didn't notice everything worth noticing, but maybe some of these will spurr discussion.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Power meter has been

Power meter has been mentioned around and is CoT's endurance: the resource you use to use abilities. That said, I'm not sure it's ever been mentioned in an update before.

Under Construction...

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Can't wait to see how the

Can't wait to see how the commander pans out in all this! Summoners are on of my favorite types of play styles in games. Mastermind was my absolute favorite, thanks for the update, keep it coming!

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I am still amused that MWM is

I am still amused that MWM is so dead set against using any common terminology that appeared in CoX. An apple is an apple is an apple except for when CoH had an apple, so you have a Globoid Fruit.

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Haha. I guess there are some

Haha. I guess there are some burned bridges there. But better safe than sorry right? Now people getting a lawsuit over everything, even the concept of a video game.

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Awesome update, as per usual.

Awesome update, as per usual. Looking forward to seeing these in action!

As for multiple builds; I might use them but I might not. Usually how I set a character's powers or what have is just how they are, though depending on the flexibility of aesthetic decoupling I could have multiple builds that still all feel similar enough... Hmm.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

I am still amused that MWM is so dead set against using any common terminology that appeared in CoX. An apple is an apple is an apple except for when CoH had an apple, so you have a Globoid Fruit.

I'd rather have to bother to learn a few new terms than to give NCsoft any more ammunition to file frivolous lawsuits to kill MWM in its crib than they already have. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Huckleberry,

Huckleberry,

Saving Grace applies towards any applied buff. Disgrace applies toward the any of the orignstor’s debuffs applies to any effected target.
Salvation may need to provide an AoE indicator for the originstor.

Aftermath leaves behind a location based effect for the duration. The T2 does not increase the value of the effect. Since these are essentially “pets” (or a statiknary object), then multiple deafeated enemies will leave behind multiple effects.

I’ve already addressed Balance, see above.

Magnitude: I specified control because it applies to Control Powers, not other types of attacks that may have a control component.

Power Meter is the resource for the costs of activating powers: see endurance, mana, etc.

The reason why the T3 doesn’t provide a global recharge buff is because it simply would be too potent when paired with Momentum improving the buff.

Supremacy: the increased Momentum gain is also found in other Mastery powers, see Enforcer - Rage.

We are aware of the increased Momentum and Reaetve dynamic. We have an interesting dynamic regarding the Momentum depletion into Reserves here - the depletion to reserve ratio is affected so that it is relatively the same.


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How is it that I'm suffering

How is it that I'm suffering from alt-itis already?

And who else already has hundreds dozens several entirely new character concepts waiting to fly?

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I'm not going to say I have

I'm not going to say I have two dozen ideas in a document with extensive notes.

Mainly because I haven't counted them. It might only be 18-ish.

Under Construction...

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Looking over the Enforcer

Looking over the Enforcer Masteries, Rage looks like it will be the most popular set.

Waylay only works when on a team and/or stealthed. If solo, the bonus is lost the minute you're out of stealth.

Rally requires you to kill an enemy, so it's not going to be effective once you get to those long boss encounters, unless there's a minion that continues to respawn or the buff lasts long enough before hand, but even then, after a wipe, with only the big bad there, no bonus.

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tripthicket wrote:
tripthicket wrote:

How is it that I'm suffering from alt-itis already?

And who else already has hundreds dozens several entirely new character concepts waiting to fly?

I still have the same number of alt ideas but this gives me a better idea of what to do with them.

Resolve makes me happy. I want a ranged character with decent defense (power armor with ballistic capabilities) and I’m sad we can’t have the Ranger/Defense set at launch. But having a Mastery that improves defense should help. I don’t need to be a ranged tank but I’d feel stupid playing a guy in a powered suit who is a glass cannon. (My armor is made from recycled aluminum cans, gotta keep my carbon footprint low.) Very promising.

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alright so, I have a question

alright so, I have a question... do masteries effect secondaries? Or do they only effect primaries?

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Looking over the Enforcer Masteries, Rage looks like it will be the most popular set.

Waylay only works when on a team and/or stealthed. If solo, the bonus is lost the minute you're out of stealth.

Rally requires you to kill an enemy, so it's not going to be effective once you get to those long boss encounters, unless there's a minion that continues to respawn or the buff lasts long enough before hand, but even then, after a wipe, with only the big bad there, no bonus.

Oh yeah! I am so into Rage. Priority #1 when the game goes live.

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Point of curiosity for me:

Point of curiosity for me: with Supremacy, will there be any means by which to circumvent the momentum crash? (Not even considering the cooldown timer in this, just the crash)

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

alright so, I have a question... do masteries effect secondaries? Or do they only effect primaries?

They effect the character globally unless specified otherwise.

velvetsanity wrote:

Point of curiosity for me: with Supremacy, will there be any means by which to circumvent the momentum crash? (Not even considering the cooldown timer in this, just the crash)

There is no way to prevent the Momentum crash.


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well, this is probably the

well, this is probably the best update(information-wise) I have seen for this game in a while. Reading over the mastery explanations, I was starting to get super excited and several ideas for builds started forming. I like the idea of 3 builds. I don't play it anymore but lotro allowed you to have builds pre-set and have the ability to swap between each out of combat. so helpful. I might have to bust out a notepad and start jotting down plans for my first character(s).

RIP City of Heroes

@stonejaguar on Excelsior server

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Tannim - You are amazing for

Tannim - You are amazing for fielding questions and providing information for your community.

Thank the team all around for this update.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Tannim - You are amazing for fielding questions and providing information for your community.

Thank the team all around for this update.

Well, thanks. Honestly, it is a joy to get this stuff out to everyone. Everyone’s passion; the eager anticipation to get in and play, the criticisms, all of it, tmakes it worth the hours upon hours of voluntary work so worh it.


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Hey! they changed to Dev

Hey! they changed to Dev badge!


PR, Forum Moderator
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Hey! they changed to Dev badge!

Wow... we did that awhile ago.

Technical Director

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
desviper wrote:

Hey! they changed to Dev badge!

Wow... we did that awhile ago.

What is your definition of "a while ago"?
If it means within the last day or so, then yes you are correct. Otherwise...

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

I am still amused that MWM is so dead set against using any common terminology that appeared in CoX. An apple is an apple is an apple except for when CoH had an apple, so you have a Globoid Fruit.

I'd rather have to bother to learn a few new terms than to give NCsoft any more ammunition to file frivolous lawsuits to kill MWM in its crib than they already have. *shrugs*

Mastery Set Definitions wrote:

Destabilizing Force: Your attacks destabilize your enemies and can hurt them further.
Your attacks generate a MEDIAL Disorient for a very brief duration and deal very light damage on any targets under a control effect.

Frontline Defender: You protect those who take cover behind you making it more difficult for them to be hit.
You project a wide, long cone behind you which provides a MEDIAL evasion buff for anyone standing in the area of effect. This effect is increased for each teamed player that targets you.

Salvation: Enemies in MEDIAL range of you will produce a light close area heal if they are defeated by a critical attack by you or a teamed ally. You or a teamed ally can be Resurrected if defeated by a critical attack.
If you or a teamed ally defeat an enemy within a MEDIAL range of your presence, a heal will produce off the defeated enemy. Should you or a teamed ally be defeated by a critical attack, a Resurrection will occur. This effect enters a long cool down once it occurs.

Undaunted You gain additional Momentum for being attacked. Once Overpower is activated you gain MEDIAL Defense to Control effects.
Your Momentum gain is buffed when you are attacked whether the attack hits, misses, evaded. When you activate Overpower you also receive a MEDIAL Defense to Control effects for the duration.

Grasp of Power Maintaining your Momentum will increase the duration of Overpower. However, the longer you try to maintain Momentum the faster it will deplete. When Overpower is active you also gain a MEDIAL increase to Power recovery.

If NCSoft can lay claim to the words "medium" or "moderate" in any context, then the entire planet is doomed. Medial is a more precise descriptor. Whereas medium or moderate describe an average or a range of measure.

ALL HAIL THE MODERATE NCSOFT OVERLORDS!

Medial wrote:

me·di·al
ˈmēdēəl/
adjective technical
adjective: medial
situated in the middle, in particular.
Anatomy Zoology
situated near the median plane of the body or the midline of an organ.
Phonetics
(of a speech sound) in the middle of a word.

Medium wrote:

me·di·um
ˈmēdēəm/
adjective: medium
1.
about halfway between two extremes of size or another quality; average.
"John is six feet tall, of medium build"
synonyms:
average, middling, medium-sized, middle-sized, midsize, moderate, normal, standard
"medium height"

Moderate wrote:

mod·er·ate
adjective
adjective: moderate
ˈmäd(ə)rət/
1.
average in amount, intensity, quality, or degree.
"we walked at a moderate pace"
synonyms:
average, modest, medium, middling, ordinary, common, commonplace, everyday, workaday;

It just feels awkward and clunky to read these descriptions. It feels like they were written in some foreign language then crammed through a Google translator about a half dozen times before they ended up on an English output.

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tripthicket wrote:
tripthicket wrote:

How is it that I'm suffering from alt-itis already?

And who else already has hundreds dozens several entirely new character concepts waiting to fly?

I had over 40 last I counted. They're not all fully fleshed out, some aren't even named. But they at least have the basic idea made, and their personalities.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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This is great to see, and now

This is great to see, and now i can make some plans on builds for my characters. :)

Shocking Blu

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I'm gonna be the guy that

I'm gonna be the guy that says "Nice... Wake me when the Commander masteries get released. "

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
desviper wrote:

Hey! they changed to Dev badge!

Wow... we did that awhile ago.

What is your definition of "a while ago"?
If it means within the last day or so, then yes you are correct. Otherwise...

It’s been maybe two weeks, maybe longer. I can’t even remember. It didn’t just happen.

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AznSenseition wrote:
AznSenseition wrote:

Can't wait to see how the commander pans out in all this! Summoners are on of my favorite types of play styles in games. Mastermind was my absolute favorite, thanks for the update, keep it coming!

This x a million. I know they won't be in for launch and launch itself won't be for a while but this is half the reason I am excited for a CoX revival game. The other half is striking dramatic poses after punching dudes off a roof. I am a simple man.

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I think we put this specific

I think we put this specific version in sometime around the weekend. You like it?
As far as Ranger/Defense: Want it badly, but we really need to get a solid baseline in first for evaluation.
As always, thank you, and I hope you're also enjoying our webcomic - and do check out our new Instagram.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

I think we put this specific version in sometime around the weekend. You like it?
As far as Ranger/Defense: Want it badly, but we really need to get a solid baseline in first for evaluation.
As always, thank you, and I hope you're also enjoying our webcomic - and do check out our new Instagram.

The orange really makes it stand out, I love it.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Everything is btter in orange

Everything is btter in orange, just ask the Thing.

Shocking Blu

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I can think of a few things

I can think of a few things that are definitely not better in orange.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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The medial part has nothing

The medial part has nothing to do with NCSoft. Apparently it's more mathematically correct for the context, or so the experts on the team claim, but I do personally agree they should just use medium for public facing work. But it has nothing to do with a lawsuit.

--------------------------

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Ranged/Manipulation (the

Ranged/Manipulation (the classic Blaster) is the one I'm really looking forward to.

And yes, I'm loving the Hijinx comic.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Some of those look like a

Some of those look like a difficult choice for my characters. Good! I do wonder what Mastery would work better for a Barriers Guardian. But I'll admit that's still really early to think of.

At some point when it's getting closer to final, I would like to see what the level progression looks like overall. When you get primaries, secondaries, tertiaries, masteries, and travel powers all set up in a nice table. At least for the levels we have at launch.

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Im now really curious about

Im now really curious about the "various ways to tank" other than taunt and how that comes into play in other abilities. I am having the excitement. Now going through my 30+ character list and assigning masteries ... =P

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Tanking is kind of a complex

Tanking is kind of a complex matter, more so now than when CoH first came out. The basic idea of a tank is that you force the enemy to deal with you first because you can take the extra pressure. In a lot of games with tank roles (especially multiplayer-focused ones, such as MOBAs or Overwatch) there's basically three groupings:

1. The 'true' tank: Someone who gets the enemy to focus on them first because they don't give the enemy a choice in the matter. This is the Living Target Mastery, and taunting is a popular way to do this. The other way is area cover: think Reinhardt from Overwatch. He's a 'true' tank because when he's in front and has his shield out you either need a flanker to get at his team or you need to chew through that shield.

2. The bruiser or bully tank: These are tanks who don't really help their allies, instead focusing on survivability and endangering their enemies. Of course this is the Bruiser mastery. You focus on the bruiser tank first not because it's somehow enforced, but because if you don't it'll be a snafu and he'll ruin everything. Think Roadhog from Overwatch: He's got a shotgun and a hook, and if allowed he'll mess up your positioning and destroy your squishy back line characters. Nothing is FORCING you to deal with him... but if you don't, he'll wreck your plans.

3. The support tank: These tanks are kind of like support classes, but tougher. They have both some means to help their fellows and the health to stick around a bit. This is your Battle Leader Mastery. While not as good at supporting as raw support classes, their support abilities mean that if they're not handled the enemy team will have a definite edge. This is Winston from Overwatch: if he can place a shield on the objective, his team is going to be a pain to root out from it. Again, nothing forces you to deal with the support tank... but everything will be SO much easier if you do.

Now, this is all subjective to individual understanding of the tropes and characters. I kind of consider D.va (still from Overwatch, it has a lot of neat tanks) a support tank but others play her as a backline-disruption bully. But these are the ideas that I think inspired the three masteries we're seeing.

Under Construction...

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MOBA and Overwatch are PvP

MOBA and Overwatch are PvP and the tank roles you discussed rely on a human opponent deciding to attack an enemy. That’s not relevant with PvE, which will presumably be the main focus of CoT.

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That just means that you'll

That just means that you'll be allowed to wreak havoc in peace. Bruiser-Mastery will still lower the amount of damage your allies will take, but it will be by lowering the amount of damage enemies will deal. Similarly, Battle Leader will lower the amount of damage allies take with defensive buffs.

In addition, we know that the CoT AI will be somewhat advanced. It's entirely possible that when it registers the edge you're giving your fellows it'll follow the same logic, letting you follow the same idea as PVP.

Under Construction...

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Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

That just means that you'll be allowed to wreak havoc in peace. Bruiser-Mastery will still lower the amount of damage your allies will take, but it will be by lowering the amount of damage enemies will deal. Similarly, Battle Leader will lower the amount of damage allies take with defensive buffs.

In addition, we know that the CoT AI will be somewhat advanced. It's entirely possible that when it registers the edge you're giving your fellows it'll follow the same logic, letting you follow the same idea as PVP.

Remembers when we put our AI into the FPS template to test it... no humans survived

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I like the Bruiser idea,

I like the Bruiser idea, admittedly. I might want to use that with one of my alts.

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I really can't imagine those

I really can't imagine those that have been consistent on these forums for 6 years. Like how do you have that much patience for so long and still hold out hope? Not sure I could stand waiting that long.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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I don't know Overwatch or its

I don't know Overwatch or its characters. Would you say that the Bruiser would be Thor ("Turn, Knave, and face the Scion of Asgard, a Warrior Born!"), the Bully would be Hulk ("Get him! He's smashing EVERYTHING!"), and the Support would be Captain America?

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Great update. Keep up the

Great update. Keep up the good work!
Most of my questions were asked and answered. Lots of interesting ideas. I like the target guardian power as a concept. The damage increasing as threat decreases is a great boon for dps adding value to using threat dumps. I don't think I've seen that in an MMO before (outside of the benefits from re-stealthing) but it's welcomed by a stalker player or any dps that doesn't like getting their face smashed because they take their aggro past the edge. It will be interesting to see how things balance with this power.
Anyways, I'm inspired to think more deeply about my toons with this update. Thank you!

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Hm... maybe? Cap. A could

Hm... maybe? Cap. A could definitely be a support tank, but it's more solid for him than for the other two. Translating narrative characters into game archetypes is difficult. It's a matter of perception as much as it is a matter of their literal abilities. I'd personally place True tank as superman, who CAN force the enemy to deal with him by nature of putting himself between the enemy and everyone else, but it's superman so he could count as most anything. In this way the Captain could also be construed as a true tank: he's in a brightly colored outfit, he stands tall, and he's famous, so people that don't think about it a lot would likely shoot him first.

It really depends on the writer with narrative characters, you see. Cap could also be an inspiration enforcer, or Hulk could be a rage enforcer.

Funnily, this means you could have two characters based on an existing character and they'd have completely different mechanics. I fully expect there to be a thread about this sooner or later.

Actually, most of the masteries have a basis in certain video game character niches. I could likely put forth a whole thread about this if I wanted to.

Under Construction...

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Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

Hm... maybe? Cap. A could definitely be a support tank, but it's more solid for him than for the other two. Translating narrative characters into game archetypes is difficult. It's a matter of perception as much as it is a matter of their literal abilities. I'd personally place True tank as superman, who CAN force the enemy to deal with him by nature of putting himself between the enemy and everyone else, but it's superman so he could count as most anything. In this way the Captain could also be construed as a true tank: he's in a brightly colored outfit, he stands tall, and he's famous, so people that don't think about it a lot would likely shoot him first.

It really depends on the writer with narrative characters, you see. Cap could also be an inspiration enforcer, or Hulk could be a rage enforcer.

Funnily, this means you could have two characters based on an existing character and they'd have completely different mechanics. I fully expect there to be a thread about this sooner or later.

Actually, most of the masteries have a basis in certain video game character niches. I could likely put forth a whole thread about this if I wanted to.

That might be interesting to read, although I know little of most video game characters. Good point about Superman. He'd be all three. Of course, as the Justice League movie made clear, the rest of the team is good and all, but once Superman shows up, the fight is over. Unless the Bad Guy is Doomsday, of course. LOL

Shocking Blu

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Remembers when we put our AI into the FPS template to test it... no humans survived

I keep seeing this mentioned but isn't this a really bad example of "good ai"?

Pixel perfect aim and perfect reflexes are basically assumed. Even the most rudimentary AI have a gigantic advantage in a pure action environment.

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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Remembers when we put our AI into the FPS template to test it... no humans survived

I keep seeing this mentioned but isn't this a really bad example of "good ai"?

Pixel perfect aim and perfect reflexes are basically assumed. Even the most rudimentary AI have a gigantic advantage in a pure action environment.

The AI learned where the health packs were, it could always find you, hunt you down. It learned to out flank you, corner you, put you in pincher between 2 flanks. It was relentless, adapting, was terminators on steroids.

It was too good, which made it bad, yes.


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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I really can't imagine those that have been consistent on these forums for 6 years. Like how do you have that much patience for so long and still hold out hope? Not sure I could stand waiting that long.

Well, I'm hanging around so I can talk to You!
Or, maybe not you, specifically.
Also, these forums let me talk about my characters and what made them awesome, and hope to be awesome again! But I'm certainly not sure about the best Mastery to replicate my Invulnerability/Energy Melee Boxer-Tanker. He made All of the bad guys hate him, but when they got close, it just made him harder to hit... Then he's punching and dancing while he lines up Energy Transfer to Destroy his target.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Planet10, can you describe

Planet10, can you describe what else besides medial makes the description seem awkward and clunky to you? I can't guarantee it will change, as the terminology was chosen by people far more deeply involved in the creation of our powers than me, but I'm certainly prepared to listen.

--------------------------

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As was mentioned Lost Deep,

As was mentioned Lost Deep, talking about what makes a tank in a PvP situation doesnt mean youre tanking in a PvE situation. Unless youre insinuating that the AI will be so that itll target these characters for those reasons, in which case both 2 and 3 are getting a "free" benefit of the auto taunt on number 1.

I appreciate the thought put in, but I dont think those are exactly the variety of tanking options the devs referred to back when it was discussed originally. In this case slightly debuffing the enemies defenses or dealing lots of damage is still not tanking, as there are debuff and damage roles. Theres more planned and Im super curious as to what it is. Im sure we'll learn more as the game progresses.

Im sure these masteries supplement the various options, but I think theres more to it in their base kits that we still dont know about and I cant wait to hear their plan.

EDIT: Just like say Guardians Masteries dont make him a guardian, his buff/debuff powers do, his masteries will just augment what he does. The Stalwart will be a tank because of his powers, and the devs have hinted at many types within this - the masteries presented will just augment that role. Its his base kit/powers and the design of "various types of tanking" that Im curious about.

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I took Lost Deep’s post as

I took Lost Deep’s post as more of a concept support. While each tank type has the same basic role (a tanks a tanks a tank) they also serve a variety of tanking niches.

This is very meaningful to those that do as much soloing as teaming. I like a tank and had several in COH but I didn’t always build them for teaming. This goes for all my characters.

While I had at least the two builds for many characters I tended to remain switched to my favorite which as others have said possibly in this thread or another, I tend to build my character exactly how I want them with minimal room/reason for multiple builds.

I usually built a tank for teaming but sometimes they weren’t a lot of fun when soloing, at least for me. Augmenting with masteries gives us the ability to explore more specialized roles within the playstyles and may make some soloing or even smaller teaming groups both easier and harder depending on how the characters are built which just gives that much more replay-ability.

The masteries will give each role slightly different ways of playing within the role.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I really can't imagine those that have been consistent on these forums for 6 years. Like how do you have that much patience for so long and still hold out hope? Not sure I could stand waiting that long.

For me, it's two things:

1) Almost everything MWM has told us about CoT describes a game I really want to play.

2) Nothing else out there that's live or in development comes close to the game I want, so I really have no choice. It's CoT or bust.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I really can't imagine those that have been consistent on these forums for 6 years. Like how do you have that much patience for so long and still hold out hope? Not sure I could stand waiting that long.

For me, it's two things:

1) Almost everything MWM has told us about CoT describes a game I really want to play.

2) Nothing else out there that's live or in development comes close to the game I want, so I really have no choice. It's CoT or bust.

Yep! This^!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I really can't imagine those that have been consistent on these forums for 6 years. Like how do you have that much patience for so long and still hold out hope? Not sure I could stand waiting that long.

For me, it's two things:

1) Almost everything MWM has told us about CoT describes a game I really want to play.

2) Nothing else out there that's live or in development comes close to the game I want, so I really have no choice. It's CoT or bust.

Yep! This^!

Yes this, also

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

I took Lost Deep’s post as more of a concept support. While each tank type has the same basic role (a tanks a tanks a tank) they also serve a variety of tanking niches.

This is very meaningful to those that do as much soloing as teaming. I like a tank and had several in COH but I didn’t always build them for teaming. This goes for all my characters.

While I had at least the two builds for many characters I tended to remain switched to my favorite which as others have said possibly in this thread or another, I tend to build my character exactly how I want them with minimal room/reason for multiple builds.

I usually built a tank for teaming but sometimes they weren’t a lot of fun when soloing, at least for me. Augmenting with masteries gives us the ability to explore more specialized roles within the playstyles and may make some soloing or even smaller teaming groups both easier and harder depending on how the characters are built which just gives that much more replay-ability.

The masteries will give each role slightly different ways of playing within the role.

No doubt and I agree. I still have my main question that the devs communicated with us a long time ago that taunting will not be the only way to tank and I still would love to know more about their design process in that!

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:
rookslide wrote:

I took Lost Deep’s post as more of a concept support. While each tank type has the same basic role (a tanks a tanks a tank) they also serve a variety of tanking niches.

This is very meaningful to those that do as much soloing as teaming. I like a tank and had several in COH but I didn’t always build them for teaming. This goes for all my characters.

While I had at least the two builds for many characters I tended to remain switched to my favorite which as others have said possibly in this thread or another, I tend to build my character exactly how I want them with minimal room/reason for multiple builds.

I usually built a tank for teaming but sometimes they weren’t a lot of fun when soloing, at least for me. Augmenting with masteries gives us the ability to explore more specialized roles within the playstyles and may make some soloing or even smaller teaming groups both easier and harder depending on how the characters are built which just gives that much more replay-ability.

The masteries will give each role slightly different ways of playing within the role.

No doubt and I agree. I still have my main question that the devs communicated with us a long time ago that taunting will not be the only way to tank and I still would love to know more about their design process in that!

It is in the Masteries. One relies on Taunting, one relies on positioning to provide “cover”, one relies on punishing he opponent and providing opportunities for the team.

Of the 3, two are more team oriented,while the other is more solo friendly. Mixing between them provides some unique play as well.

Frontline Defender also has components hat require team coordination by having he team target through the FTL.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Remembers when we put our AI into the FPS template to test it... no humans survived

I keep seeing this mentioned but isn't this a really bad example of "good ai"?

Pixel perfect aim and perfect reflexes are basically assumed. Even the most rudimentary AI have a gigantic advantage in a pure action environment.

The AI learned where the health packs were, it could always find you, hunt you down. It learned to out flank you, corner you, put you in pincher between 2 flanks. It was relentless, adapting, was terminators on steroids.

It was too good, which made it bad, yes.

These are all still really old and basic AI features that would not have stood out much in the late 90s though. Map navigation routes that include powerups, flanking, suppression....even action oriented games like late 90s quake 3 and unreal tournament had these to say nothing of more tactical games.

If it can intelligently react to, predict, and create battlefield changes for a tactical advantage in addition to all the previously mentioned FPS basics, then we're getting somewhere impressive. Making decisions on what to do if your line of sight suddenly changes, such as a wall suddenly being created or removed, is the sort of decision making a player can do easily but very few AI scripts can handle, at least without blatantly cheating. In an MMO environment aiming and dodging and reflexes are largely removed from the equation, as well as map knowledge, so those easy "gimme" advantages to AI are gone. The more complicated the field you play on and the more you can do, the harder it gets to have AI that feels "good" without simply cheating. This is why almost all complicated games, especially strategy games, end up with very cheaty AI that relies on omniscience and/or huge statistical advantages to be competitive.

This is why I said that proudly displaying "our AI is good at playing shooty shooty against game developers, a crowd notoriously bad at playing games" is not an ideal standard to show off your AI. The important part is the complicated decision making.

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