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A Crafting System that allows individual choice.

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Cobalt Azurean
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Rigel wrote:
I think I'd prefer having one set of generic names.
While having item's names show up differently based on my character's preference might help with immersion, it seems like it would add a LOT of confusion trying to learn what everything does if I have multiple toons with different backgrounds (which I plan to have).
I also don't want to have to consult a spreadsheet to figure out what equivalent Item I need to mail from my magic guy to my tech guy to make something.
I agree - just have one standard set of names for crafting components. MUCH less confusion. Plus I really don't care if my mage gets circuit boards from blasting apart robots - makes sense to me. This is a world where science and magic cross paths on a daily basis. Orichalcum may be just as common (or rare) a salvage as Titanium in Titan City.

This is pretty much my stance on the subject as well. Similarly, I always disliked it in games where if I kill a pack of Animal-X in Fantasy-Game-Y and it dropped Currency-Z, like gold/platinum/monium. That's why I liked 'Inf' in CoX. It was an intangible thing that you gained from defeating the enemy and could be applied across the board on bad guys, no matter their theme. I don't want to have to ruminate on, "Why did this Steampunk Robot Baddo drop a cool grand in hard currency?" The world may never know.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

One thing I'm personally happy about is that we wont have the gawdawful naming convention for items that GW2 has. In that game, if you want a thing that does what you want it to do, looks nice, and has something slotted into it to enhance it to the nines, you end up wearing something like "Berserker's Seer Coat of the Scholar" or something. So what's the deal? Am I a berserker, a seer, or a scholar? Every time I see the names of the items in that game I am reminded of the episode of Taxi where Jim buys an Italian restaurant named Mario's and ends up renaming it "Jim's Mario's"

If I remember correctly, their naming scheme actually gives you information about what buff's/bonuses the piece gives you. ie Berzerker is Power++, Precision+ Ferocity+ in terms of bonuses.

Actually its the same in most games to a degree.

"DNA Resequencing Confuse Boost", "Paraxial Modifier", "Cacophony Projector", "Li Tieh Kuai's Band", "Mask", "Awakening: Increased Confusion", "Perplexity of Hermes", "Dragon Flurry", "WetWare Eng Vocal Mimicer", "Theta Wave Bombardment", "Chain"

Now without going to Paragon Wiki (or using MIDS), can you tell me off the top of your head what these enhancements actually affected in City of Heroes...

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Cobalt Azurean
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Radiac wrote:
One thing I'm personally happy about is that we wont have the gawdawful naming convention for items that GW2 has. In that game, if you want a thing that does what you want it to do, looks nice, and has something slotted into it to enhance it to the nines, you end up wearing something like "Berserker's Seer Coat of the Scholar" or something. So what's the deal? Am I a berserker, a seer, or a scholar? Every time I see the names of the items in that game I am reminded of the episode of Taxi where Jim buys an Italian restaurant named Mario's and ends up renaming it "Jim's Mario's"
If I remember correctly, their naming scheme actually gives you information about what buff's/bonuses the piece gives you. ie Berzerker is Power++, Precision+ Ferocity+ in terms of bonuses.
Actually its the same in most games to a degree.
"DNA Resequencing Confuse Boost", "Paraxial Modifier", "Cacophony Projector", "Li Tieh Kuai's Band", "Mask", "Awakening: Increased Confusion", "Perplexity of Hermes", "Dragon Flurry", "WetWare Eng Vocal Mimicer", "Theta Wave Bombardment", "Chain"
Now without going to Paragon Wiki (or using MIDS), can you tell me off the top of your head what these enhancements actually affected in City of Heroes...

Once upon a time, G. Once upon a time. And I couldn't begin to tell you how many hours I put into playing Mids. So many builds, so little time.

Radiac
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Radiac wrote:
One thing I'm personally happy about is that we wont have the gawdawful naming convention for items that GW2 has. In that game, if you want a thing that does what you want it to do, looks nice, and has something slotted into it to enhance it to the nines, you end up wearing something like "Berserker's Seer Coat of the Scholar" or something. So what's the deal? Am I a berserker, a seer, or a scholar? Every time I see the names of the items in that game I am reminded of the episode of Taxi where Jim buys an Italian restaurant named Mario's and ends up renaming it "Jim's Mario's"
If I remember correctly, their naming scheme actually gives you information about what buff's/bonuses the piece gives you. ie Berzerker is Power++, Precision+ Ferocity+ in terms of bonuses.
Actually its the same in most games to a degree.
"DNA Resequencing Confuse Boost", "Paraxial Modifier", "Cacophony Projector", "Li Tieh Kuai's Band", "Mask", "Awakening: Increased Confusion", "Perplexity of Hermes", "Dragon Flurry", "WetWare Eng Vocal Mimicer", "Theta Wave Bombardment", "Chain"
Now without going to Paragon Wiki (or using MIDS), can you tell me off the top of your head what these enhancements actually affected in City of Heroes...

I JUST put "Superior Rune of the Scholar" in 6 of my own armor items, and I don't remember exactly what that does even, except that it was the recommended thing to do, and others seemed to agree. I know I'm getting +100 power out of it, that's about all I can tell you without looking at it again.

And I personally don't mind if the names of the items don't give you any indication of what they do. I'm going to have to look at the items themselves to find out if I do or do not want them anyway, and I'm going to forget the naming convention, to a large extent, afterward anyway.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Empyrean
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Once up a time, G. Once upon a time. And I couldn't begin to tell you how many hours I put into playing Mids. So many builds, so little time.

I loved Mids. I made builds for my son and wife as well as myself (because neither of them would have messed with Mids and I couldn't stand them having sub-standard builds :P).

I probably spent almost half as much time between Mids and tweaking my costume as I actually played the game. And loved every minute of it.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I would throw in the counter

I would throw in the counter argument that you can't select your "junk" naming scheme from the marketplace because then you would get complaints about why did that giant frickin' robot drop a blood soaked curse scroll? Or an enchanted bone? I think the junk names need to match with the dropper to a degree. So robots drop STEM related junk and wizards drop mystical junk. Then you can have X number of types and color code those types. and then rank them 1-5 so you'd have 5 ranks of red junk and 5 ranks of blue junk and so on and so forth. To craft an item like a health refinement you'd need 3 pieces of green junk rank 1 and a piece of green junk rank 4 and a piece of blue junk rank 3.

Basically the system doesn't care about the name of the ingredient just the color and rank. Maybe a cash shop item could be a piece of rainbow junk that could stand in for any given color of junk. I am assuming that for high level items you'll still need something more than junk IE from junk you'd build a tier 2 item and from several tier 2 items you'd build a tier 3 item and from several tier 3 items a tier 4 until you reach tier X where you finally get the item you are trying to build. Otherwise being able to sub a cash shop item for any given junk could be considered pay to win. In this case having a origin based naming scheme for tier 2 items and above would make more sense.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Once up a time, G. Once upon a time. And I couldn't begin to tell you how many hours I put into playing Mids. So many builds, so little time.
I loved Mids. I made builds for my son and wife as well as myself (because neither of them would have messed with Mids and I couldn't stand them having sub-standard builds :P).
I probably spent almost half as much time between Mids and tweaking my costume as I actually played the game. And loved every minute of it.

Wasn't it awesome how many different ways you could enjoy the game?

Cobalt Azurean
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harpospoke wrote:
harpospoke wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Once up a time, G. Once upon a time. And I couldn't begin to tell you how many hours I put into playing Mids. So many builds, so little time.
I loved Mids. I made builds for my son and wife as well as myself (because neither of them would have messed with Mids and I couldn't stand them having sub-standard builds :P).
I probably spent almost half as much time between Mids and tweaking my costume as I actually played the game. And loved every minute of it.
Wasn't it awesome how many different ways you could enjoy the game?

Yes. Yes it was.

Gangrel
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Once upon a time, G. Once upon a time. And I couldn't begin to tell you how many hours I put into playing Mids. So many builds, so little time.

That actually proves the point, to a degree. City of Heroes enhancement naming scheme wasn't exactly *easy* to work out.

The images gave you more information than the actual name.

Confusion Duration: "DNA Resequencing Confuse Boost", "Paraxial Modifier", "Cacophony Projector", "Li Tieh Kuai's Band", "Mask", "Awakening: Increased Confusion", "Perplexity of Hermes", "Dragon Flurry", "WetWare Eng Vocal Mimicer", "Theta Wave Bombardment",

Defence Buff: "Chain"

Yes, I cheated... but it just went to show *how* confusing it all was.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Cobalt Azurean
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Yes, I cheated... but it just went to show *how* confusing it all was.

Ha, confusing and Confuse duration. I see what you did there.

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I am still shocked by the

I am still shocked by the fact that people are more concerned about what the game calls 'random widget 2043' than the crafting system itself.

Godling
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Most games have several dozen

Most games have several dozen different kinds of purple junk; especially when we are building custom heroes and villains. With customization comes great sources;
anyways if you don't have dozens of different builds for dozens of characters then you wont have to memories them.
you can usally in short order find a list and vhoose the ones that best meet your needs

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With great drops comes great

With great drops comes great responsibility ... TO AUCTION!!!


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I am still shocked by the fact that people are more concerned about what the game calls 'random widget 2043' than the crafting system itself.

"Concerned" might be a bit strong, at least for me, but we might as well make our thoughts known before anything is set in stone.

Anyway, this is nothing.
Check out the threads on breast physics and nipple bumps! :P

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

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All I want to say is:

All I want to say is:

Please Don't Leave it Up to the RNG gods.

-Skoot the Brute

Forever Virtue

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The other gods might not be

The other gods might not be any nicer tho...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Don't leave it up to any Gods

Don't leave it up to any Gods.

There is no need to make crafting difficult or time consuming in a game like this which is all a random element will do. The typical system which requires getting a bunch of specific different 'currency posing as components' items in order to trade them in for gear that is better only leads from incentive to farm on to market inflation and into power creep. It ends with a steep barrier of entry for new players or those who cannot play as much as others.
That type of system that artificially extends play time works well in gear based games where a major goal is the acquisition of better gear or games with very limited content but is counter productive to one like CoT.

Making most of the tools/components for crafting readily available and designing a compelling crafting system that focuses on sideways advancement removes those elements that belong in gear based games.

IMO the best system for this game would include:
1. Crafted items that do not increase a characters power but instead influences how that character plays or sideways progression.
2. Components that are not just used for crafting but are themselves 'gear', for lack of a better term.
3. Encourage,but don't require, experimentation by having lower cost, available components, quick crafting and easy item swapping on a character.
4. Have certain milestones in crafting that expands what can be crafted based on character level and previous crafting to allow for crafting specialists.
5. Allow for a small amount of 'special' reward drops associated with crafting that are not more powerful but instead unique.
6. An understanding that min/maxing is inevitable so the system has a small margin between average and max power.
7. Freedom to add new components to the game that follow the same conventions as #1 to renew interest in experimentation without adding power creep.

A system that includes all of these fits a game like CoT better than the traditional random loot drop component + recipe = stronger item crafting that gear based MMO's use.
It would allow the devs to keep a steady interest in crafting through regular updates with limited worry of power creep, inflation or alienating a portion of it's player base with barrier of entry.
It's a system that follows the massive customization ideals the game is already promising to put forth with its aesthetic decoupling and expansive character designer.
The best thing about this system is that it will fill the same play time extension as randomizing would because it provides incentives to start new characters as well as an option to make old characters fresh again.

If anyone doesn't get how I came to my conclusions or has any questions/disagreements I am willing to discuss them.
But please, this thread is intended to discuss the crafting system not the lore behind it. If you want to talk about what to call things I would prefer it if you started your own thread and not hijack mine again.

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Just don't put them in a

Just don't put them in a library setting or out on a street corner :p

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Special Recipe, Augment, Refinement and Consumable power drops

At the beginning I said that we shouldn't be required to have recipes and that most augments and refinements should be available from in game stores. This does not remove the possibility of special recipes, augments/refinements or pre-made consumable powers.

I would like these special rewards to be selected upon completion of certain challenges or from trials and to not have them be randomized drops. I find it frustrating to be seeking a specific item only to find I am either required to buy it for huge amounts of IGC on the market or spend extended periods doing the same content until earning it. That's my feelings on it and not a demand in any way.

Anyway, you could have special augments/refinements that are more powerful or unique from store bought ones which players can use on their own or combine using the same rules as above.

The special recipes would be the catalyst component in creating a special augment/refinement consumable power that cannot be further combined. As this is just a harder to earn version of crafting that I would not like included in the game I would instead treat these 'recipes' as the catalyst for a quest/ series of quests to acquire the items needed to make the special slottable. For example you get the plans for the 'Black Hole Grenade' and it says you need a part of an anti-matter meteor, alien metal and future circuitry. So now you have to either steal or earn those special parts, depending on your alignment, in a series of missions.

1. Pre-made consumable powers could be enhanced versions of ones players can make with special names, unique style or just effects unavailable in normal crafting.

2. These special rewards would in most cases demand a larger cost on the market but that is as it should be. Again, if these were made to be selected instead of random it would keep the cost down because they would not (be) as unattainable for casual players.

I underlined parts that have me a little concerned; 1, Pre-Made Consumables (PMC) being better than what the players can craft? If I can buy better PMCs, with character earned points/fame/treasure/loot (whatever the currency will be called), wouldn't that make crafting a fairly useless passtime? Only upside to crafting a PMC would be you use treasure-loot instead of coin for a temporary affect.
In 2, I am presuming that the "cost", is not real life money, but rather mission earned coin. Is that correct?

Capt Odee, saving the city one click at a time.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

You may want to have a random outcome component to the crafting process, like when you make a thing by combining other things, you have a REALLY small chance of getting a Very Rare as a crafting result. Those Very Rares would then be highly sought after and expensive on the market. This would cause people with a bunch of common Augments to pay IGC to craft them and take a swing at a Very Rare instead of just selling them or if they do, the market for them might remain decent. That is, a chance at a random Very Rare result might create demand for the less Augments that go into that process.

Perhaps adding Crafting, as a subskill, that you can improve by crafting, and thus increasing the chance that your character has an epiphany moment, creating a Rare, or better enhancement, could be looked at in development? However, while I am a capitalist at heart, I am not a fan of a bloated auction market, with insanely bloated prices for crafted, or dropped items. What that an uncontrolled auction house does, is open the players up to the Gold Marketeers who use bots to grind away at resources players need for crafting. So make a price cap for items, to stop that, but then doing so takes away time for devs to create a fair and equitable market system.

Auction houses such as what are in WoW, LOTRO, STO, have made me a convert to RNGesus when hunting drops.

Capt Odee, saving the city one click at a time.

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Capt Odee wrote:
Capt Odee wrote:

I underlined parts that have me a little concerned; 1, Pre-Made Consumables (PMC) being better than what the players can craft? If I can buy better PMCs, with character earned points/fame/treasure/loot (whatever the currency will be called), wouldn't that make crafting a fairly useless passtime? Only upside to crafting a PMC would be you use treasure-loot instead of coin for a temporary affect.
In 2, I am presuming that the "cost", is not real life money, but rather mission earned coin. Is that correct?

This is a bit late but I enjoy academic discussions.
As far as a reason why crafting wouldn't be useless, the special recipes I discuss in this part are ones that are predetermined so if the benefits of the crafted item are not applicable or undesirable then the size of the bonus is a waste to use. As a quick example, if the special recipe increases accuracy and your power is an auto hit then the recipe isn't useful to you.
Also, in my suggestion I wasn't just talking about bonuses to stats but also additional effects or aesthetics. So if the only place you can find an spitting aesthetic for your attack is from this recipe then you will want it, but if you don't want that aesthetic then you will probably use another recipe. Alternately, if the only place you can find a recipe that adds stun to a range attack is the special recipe it may be something you seek out but if you're a melee character it would be much less applicable.

My referencing cost means what the players will sell them for on a player market.

All in all, the special recipe section of the suggestion was to provide a way for the devs to include rare and unique crafting within a limitless crafting system. The core of this suggestion was to give players a more interesting and open crafting system in which the crafting wasn't just a static trading of predetermined useless items for a predetermined useful one.

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After reading the whole

After reading the whole thread...

I'd prefer a crafting system that's quick and easy. Immediately after reading the thread title I had a thought similar to Brainbot's idea. Which I like. The idea of crafting materials just being augments and refinements (or however they're called) is elegant. The only thing I'd change is maybe not having 2 of the same add up to more than one, if you want more of a thing slot more of a thing. But that's just me.

I'm fine with crafting materials being named whatever. My mage using a circuit board to craft doesn't break my immersion when it's all being dropped into a bubbling magic cauldron. Spells need what spells need.

Something that bothers me in most games with crafting systems is that you can craft pretty good stuff. Random drops tend to be better. You work your buns off getting your crafting up all the way to max and the stuff you make is below end game dungeon gear, and just a bit stronger than close to end game mission rewards. Cool. Tons of time, tons of items, money, etc to get a +1 over stuff anyone gets. Whoopie.

So in regards to that I hope any craftables are at least on par with random drops their level.

If crafting has a minigame, if it's not fun I won't do it. It would be awesome to have a crafting phone app. Dump all your crafting components into a box, then log in with phone, choose what to make, and let me candy crush, match 3, or whatever my way to crafted things. It'll let me play the game when I'm not playing the game. If we could somehow connect the phone to the chat, or PMs, or whatever all the better.

This is probably not likely but hey, I can dream.

I can't wait to learn more about this game we are all eagerly awaiting.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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