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CoT and SoH

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[Announcers Voice]

[Announcers Voice]
HEROES . . in . . Space!
[/Announcers Voice]

but you gotta say it Muppet Style. ;P

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Ship of Heroes

Ship of Heroes

Think of it as being a Generation Ship that has been in flight to its destination for multiple generations already and in which the progeny of the original "colonists" have somehow Lost Their History and no longer understand/believe that they're living inside a spaceship, but are instead living on a terrestrial surface (because that's what the interior of the ship looks like). Mix in a little "randomness" and you can start having superheroes and supervillains emerging among the passengers/populace as the whole effort spins out of control/balance from the original intention.

Obviously then, the way to "end" the game at shutdown would be to have the ship crash into a celestial body (like a moon or a planet), thereby terminating the entire environment (because nobody was flying the darn thing) and leave a big crater. Better luck next game!


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Ship of Heroes
Think of it as being a Generation Ship that has been in flight to its destination for multiple generations already and in which the progeny of the original "colonists" have somehow Lost Their History and no longer understand/believe that they're living inside a spaceship, but are instead living on a terrestrial surface (because that's what the interior of the ship looks like). Mix in a little "randomness" and you can start having superheroes and supervillains emerging among the passengers/populace as the whole effort spins out of control/balance from the original intention.

Heh heh - that's been done, minus the supers of course.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Heh heh - that's been done, minus the supers of course.

Yeah I actually bought the boxset for The Starlost a few years ago. Normally I'm a sucker for just about any cheesy 70's era sci-fi TV show but even I seem to lack the patience to finish it. It's only got 16 episodes and it's got some great actors (like Keir Dullea from 2001: A Space Odyssey) but the stories just... drag... on... and... on.

Maybe one day I'll finish it, but if you're looking for something a little more up-to-date I'd suggest a movie called Pandorum (2009). It's got the "trapped on a ship and they don't know how they got there" theme mixed in with some good creepy suspense and action bits.

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See also Heinlein, R. A.:

See also Heinlein, R. A.: Orphans of the Sky, 1941.

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CoT, SoH, and CoT?

CoT, SoH, and CoH?

How many people would flock back to the original? I just have a feeling we will see CoH in 2018. There are very sneaky over there, the most viable competitor may have been under our nose the entire time. Although dated, there are older mmo out there.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

CoT, SoH, and CoH?
How many people would flock back to the original? I just have a feeling we will see CoH in 2018. There are very sneaky over there, the most viable competitor may have been under our nose the entire time. Although dated, there are older mmo out there.

There would probably be quite a few people that would go back to the game. I myself would check it out for nostalgia's sake, but I'll still be keeping an eye on all the successors; while CoH kept me entertained for a good 8 years or so, it also had it's warts. Besides, there is no way we will be getting all our old characters, SG bases, or vet rewards back. If someone actually manages to craft a better supers game, I'd like to start fresh in that one.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

How many people would flock back to the original? I just have a feeling we will see CoH in 2018. There are very sneaky over there, the most viable competitor may have been under our nose the entire time. Although dated, there are older mmo out there.

I've read various things over the years to suggest that NCsoft has actually lost some of the original CoH source code when they shutdown the live servers. Even if that's not the case I'm quite sure they didn't bother to maintain everyone's character data after this many years.

At this point if NCsoft ever magically relaunched the original CoH as a completely wiped game (no preexisting character data) I'd have strong doubts if I'd even give it a try. The idea of replaying the exact same game with thousands of hours of character progression gone would likely begin to infuriate me almost immediately.

As Interdictor implied if I'm going to have to "start over" I might as well start over with something new.

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I'd play it. It's not like

I'd play it. It's not like there's a better option right now :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I'd play it. It's not like there's a better option right now :p

This.

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If it came back I'd happily

If it came back I'd happily play it while working on COT.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I'd play it. It's not like there's a better option right now :p
This.

That is what I was getting at, nobody has been able to capture the essence of that title. People would immediately drop everything and flock over there imo. I think there was more to the Stateman resurface than they are letting on. For all we know they are probably using the successors as guinea pigs to gauge the interest. Deep down, I think they know there is a market for this.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:
I'd play it. It's not like there's a better option right now :p
This.
That is what I was getting at, nobody has been able to capture the essence of that title. People would immediately drop everything and flock over there imo. I think there was more to the Stateman resurface than they are letting on. For all we know they are probably using the successors as guinea pigs to gauge the interest. Deep down, I think they know there is a market for this.

According to a Master X Master dev, it was a personal project of his to bring Statesman back in some form or fashion, nothing more. I don't think that CoH/V will ever return in any form... except that of a spiritual successor here in City of Titans.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I've read various things over the years to suggest that NCsoft has actually lost some of the original CoH source code when they shutdown the live servers. Even if that's not the case I'm quite sure they didn't bother to maintain everyone's character data after this many years.

I'd definitely believe this. The various stages of the process were split between Paragon and NCSoft, and inevitably something would have fallen through the cracks, given that they did not take the time to mothball anything, just fired everyone and closed the doors in one day.

As for player data, I doubt the hard drives would all come back up after this many years, assuming they weren't recycled into some other product.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Phararri wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:
I'd play it. It's not like there's a better option right now :p
This.
That is what I was getting at, nobody has been able to capture the essence of that title. People would immediately drop everything and flock over there imo. I think there was more to the Stateman resurface than they are letting on. For all we know they are probably using the successors as guinea pigs to gauge the interest. Deep down, I think they know there is a market for this.
According to a Master X Master dev, it was a personal project of his to bring Statesman back in some form or fashion, nothing more. I don't think that CoH/V will ever return in any form... except that of a spiritual successor here in City of Titans.

Truthfully, with the popularity of superhero movies, I just don't understand why they don't bring it back and bring it back better.

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amievil wrote:
amievil wrote:

If it came back I'd happily play it while working on COT.

You sure you'd be able to balance those two? :D

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

As for player data, I doubt the hard drives would all come back up after this many years, assuming they weren't recycled into some other product.

I'm pretty sure that anything stored from CoH is in the form of a backup today, regardless of if on HDD tape or whatever.

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Of course! Would probably

Of course! Would probably motivate me more to be better.

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Um... Having lived in Asia

Um... Having lived in Asia for over three decades, I feel very confident when I say, CoH is never coming back. Period.

Now, if by some wild and unexpected stretch of the imagination NC Soft Korea decided they should relaunch the title, they would use the IP to craft a new game, from the ground up, probably in Unreal Engine. They have multiple subcontractors and subsidiaries with very skilled programming and art people. If they offered one or more of them a generous contract to rebuild CoH, they would be happy to do so.

However, the only way that would happen is if by some miracle one or more of the spiritual successors became a huge success in the market. Remember, CoH only accounted for 2-4% of NC Soft Korea revenue (depending on the quarter). NC Soft is not a small-time publisher. They are much too obsessed with their own public image. They want every game to bring five or ten million new players in the first year and retain the majority of them for the first five years. They have a powerful disinterest in managing multiple small successes. They believe they are entitled to the gold ring, and if they can't get their hands on it, they jump off the Merry-go-round and look for a better one.

In Asia, pride is still just as important as profit. For some companies, like NC Soft, the two are inseparable.

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To change gears a bit,

To change gears a bit, Crowfall just released a graphics update, and I think it should do well for showing how a game evolves - that what any of us, CoT, VO or SoH, show is not the finished product until it is. Crowfall is using the same graphics engine as Valiance, so is a more direct comparison there, but the approach still is valid for the rest of us.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I'd play it. It's not like there's a better option right now :p

My hopes would be that there would not be a huge window of time between "whenever CoH magically restarted" and "whenever CoT finally launched".

I suppose if we knew with 100% absolute certainty that CoH was going to be relaunched tomorrow and it was still going to be YEARS before CoT even started beta then yes of course I would at least load up CoH and tinker around with it. But if it was more the case that CoH wasn't going to be relaunched until CoT was just a few months away (or even in beta by then) then I still doubt I'd bother.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

To change gears a bit, Crowfall just released a graphics update, and I think it should do well for showing how a game evolves - that what any of us, CoT, VO or SoH, show is not the finished product until it is. Crowfall is using the same graphics engine as Valiance, so is a more direct comparison there, but the approach still is valid for the rest of us.

It appears the graphical update we just saw was 80% showmanship and 20% updated graphics.

The 20% updated graphics I referred to above is the inclusion of lighting effects, shadows and environmental effects like mist.

The images shown in the 'before' images were filmed with a slow camera in bright environments, allowing us to focus on the simplistic art style and lack of any graphical effects like shadows or ambient occlusion. The images shown of the updated graphics were noticably darker and the camera movement was noticeably faster, both conspiring to keep us from seeing details that were quite evident in the pre-updated graphics. In other words, the simplistic art style was hidden in the updated graphics demonstration.

I am keen on their simplistic art style. But as we've pointed out in other threads, simplistic style, no matter how graphically advanced, is not viewed as impressive as a more realistic style; even if the more realistic style is not as graphically advanced.

I think it is evident the makers of Crowfall are aware of this phenomenon and so decided to hide much of their simplistic art style through shadow and quick camera movement in the 'after' depictions in order to point out the advances they did make. Such that the average viewer will see simple block art in the before pictures and moody environments in the after pictures and translate it into being a bigger difference than really exists. Good marketing.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

To change gears a bit, Crowfall just released a graphics update, and I think it should do well for showing how a game evolves - that what any of us, CoT, VO or SoH, show is not the finished product until it is. Crowfall is using the same graphics engine as Valiance, so is a more direct comparison there, but the approach still is valid for the rest of us.

Was I tripping or was there a horse man model in that video? I am going to say I am trippin because that was the first time I have seen a quadrupedal playable hero in a mmo. Nah, that didnt happen...that was merely a horse.... moving on.....

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Was I tripping or was there a horse man model in that video? I am going to say I am trippin because that was the first time I have seen a quadrupedal playable hero in a mmo. Nah, that didnt happen...that was merely a horse.... moving on.....

Nope, you weren't tripping. That's a Centaur alright. It is one of their archetypes.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Phararri wrote:
Was I tripping or was there a horse man model in that video? I am going to say I am trippin because that was the first time I have seen a quadrupedal playable hero in a mmo. Nah, that didnt happen...that was merely a horse.... moving on.....
Nope, you weren't tripping. That's a Centaur alright. It is one of their archetypes.

Wow, interesting. Thanks for that.

So, what are the chances we get something cool like that?

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

So, what are the chances we get something cool like that?

At launch time? Maybe like a 0.6% chance. After launch? Who knows...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
Phararri wrote:
Was I tripping or was there a horse man model in that video? I am going to say I am trippin because that was the first time I have seen a quadrupedal playable hero in a mmo. Nah, that didnt happen...that was merely a horse.... moving on.....
Nope, you weren't tripping. That's a Centaur alright. It is one of their archetypes.
Wow, interesting. Thanks for that.
So, what are the chances we get something cool like that?

Very small considering the advanced character creator MWM is building.

There would be a large upfront cost when creating it due to not only having to create two new bodies (male and female) but also since they would have to adjust or even redo most body related animations (guesstimating 80-90%) and a lot of the costume pieces. This cost would also increase the longer they wait due to the increasing amount of animations and costume pieces. There would also be a permanent increase in the cost of developing new animations and costume pieces since they would have to make versions for new bodies.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if MWM would incorporate more body types than the standard bipedal one but I have to admit that it doesn't look like it would be financially viable at the moment.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Phararri wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Phararri wrote:
Was I tripping or was there a horse man model in that video? I am going to say I am trippin because that was the first time I have seen a quadrupedal playable hero in a mmo. Nah, that didnt happen...that was merely a horse.... moving on.....
Nope, you weren't tripping. That's a Centaur alright. It is one of their archetypes.
Wow, interesting. Thanks for that.
So, what are the chances we get something cool like that?
Very small considering the advanced character creator MWM is building.
There would be a large upfront cost when creating it due to not only having to create two new bodies (male and female) but also since they would have to adjust or even redo most body related animations (guesstimating 80-90%) and a lot of the costume pieces. This cost would also increase the longer they wait due to the increasing amount of animations and costume pieces. There would also be a permanent increase in the cost of developing new animations and costume pieces since they would have to make versions for new bodies.
Don't get me wrong, I would love it if MWM would incorporate more body types than the standard bipedal one but I have to admit that it doesn't look like it would be financially viable at the moment.

Advanced in terms of mechanics, I see. Not really feeling it tbh. It seems like you can do a lot, with humans, not much else.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Advanced in terms of mechanics, I see. Not really feeling it tbh. It seems like you can do a lot, with humans, not much else.

Well, I think we can all agree that since the human form is by far the most common character form in comics that it is absolutely critical for the game.

Beyond that, of course, I'm sure most everyone wants as many options as possible--but, remember, it's quick and easy for you to just say "I wanna be a Centaur!"

They actually have to, you know, do all the work it takes to try to make it work within the entire framework of the game.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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There are simplifications to

There are simplifications to animating going up and down steps you can do with a biped. With a quadruped, those simplifications stick out a lot more.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

There are simplifications to animating going up and down steps you can do with a biped. With a quadruped, those simplifications stick out a lot more.

But "simplified animations" always seem to work out on shows like South Park. Why couldn't that style be applied here? ;)

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There are already solutions

There are already solutions out there in UE4 land for creatures with more than two legs - that even take uneven terrain and steps into account. IKinema is one that I've seen, there are probably others. Now actually implementing that stuff will take time. Not to mention they have to get the biped stuff fully fleshed out first. So it is possible, but like the others here - I wouldn't expect to see it at launch.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k6cfXbQaGw&t=235s

Not bad, I am liking this one the most, AT THIS TIME. Subject to change.

11:25 sums up the current state of the comic book mmo playerbase. It sounds like a shot, but it is the cold hard truth. Players are not flocking to these successors anymore because they need a hands on experience. They have no faith in these projects. They are not the minority, they are the majority. We have successors popping up left and right and none can be played at this time.

There is a reason why non-comic theme games like Star Citizen can pull this off https://www.gamespot.com/articles/intriguing-mmo-ashes-of-creation-has-already-raise/1100-6450122/

And VO and SoH failed.

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Oh, and they said in August

Oh, and they said in August and September people can play with the character creator.

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Ive been hating on the

Ive been hating on the concept of SOH because it doesn't make sense and the name irks me but now that I think about it, I might actually enjoy it. I remember watching TNG a lot when i was younger and i remember thinking how cool it would be to walk down the hallways on a spaceship and have your room with a view to space. So maybe it might not be too bad.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Ive been hating on the concept of SOH because it doesn't make sense and the name irks me but now that I think about it, I might actually enjoy it. I remember watching TNG a lot when i was younger and i remember thinking how cool it would be to walk down the hallways on a spaceship and have your room with a view to space. So maybe it might not be too bad.

It's just StarTrek instead of a superhero game... mah. That will never substitute City of Heroes in my heart, for the concept, even if it was the best game on Earth I would still feel to play a Star Trek game instead of an universe where I can be whoever I want in a modern City. I liked StarCraft and Xcom games much, I got hundreds of hours there, still I miss City of Heroes, I miss my hero in the city, and he cannot return in a future ship in the space, that's all.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
, I miss my hero in the city, and he cannot return in a future ship in the space, that's all.

Yeah, while I think SOH might be fun, there's something a bit weird to the setting, I mean if you have something set so far down you pretty much make everything Sci-fi, if you ask me a good super heroes MMORPG need to be able to integrate all aspect of classic super heroes lore (Something like Dark Astoria for exemple would be out of place)

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Redem wrote:
Redem wrote:

ThunderCAP wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
, I miss my hero in the city, and he cannot return in a future ship in the space, that's all.
Yeah, while I think SOH might be fun, there's something a bit weird to the setting, I mean if you have something set so far down you pretty much make everything Sci-fi, if you ask me a good super heroes MMORPG need to be able to integrate all aspect of classic super heroes lore (Something like Dark Astoria for exemple would be out of place)

Respectfully, I disagree. In my opinion, what's great about comics is that pretty much any setting can be used, be it science fiction or fantasy or contemporary. I enjoyed zones in CoH/V such as Croatoa or Dark Astoria or First Ward because they were a fresh change of pace compared to the usual city zone. For example, in the classic comic book Strange Tales, Dr. Strange traveled across the multiverse, landing in all sorts of different dimensions and worlds where things weren't the same as his contemporary Earth-616, slinging spells and contending with outer-dimensional beings. So to say that a place with some mysticism and evil demonic entities would be out of place, I again respectfully disagree, assuming (a perhaps incorrectly so) what was out of place about DA was it's premise.
Now, does that mean I enjoy SoH? Unlikely. I think the mixing of comic book and space-faring themes is a bit too jarring, and when a business tries appeal to too many different genres, it likely doesn't do either of them great justice but merely mediocre at best. Mind you, I could be wrong and they could knock it out of the park, bringing in some hardcore Star Citizen/Elite Dangerous/Star Trek fans and CoH/V fans, but I won't hold my breath and I'll believe it when I see it.

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The Ship of Heroes setting...

The Ship of Heroes setting...

I have an ongoing feud with the guy who heads up the project. I keep telling him his storytelling sucks and offering alternatives and he keeps saying the best stuff has yet to be revealed. I suppose it's a kind of PvP. (rofl)

My first impression of the setting was abject horror. "masked and costumed superheros on a space ship" was just too much of a mixed metaphor. I found it completely unpalatable. Having given it further thought, I think it could work and work well provided they maximize the potential of the setting. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell at this point in time (an admittedly limited perspective), I don't think that's going to happen. Rather than "superheroes in space" they seem to be planning their storytelling along the lines of "an American city in space", which is a completely different concept.

But we'll see. My priority still remains the same: UGC toolset. Whichever game winds up with the best UGC toolset will have my complete loyalty and nearly unlimited access to my bank account. So far, CoT is the only one with solid plans in that direction.

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The overall Ship of Heroes

The overall Ship of Heroes setting just seems like it would've been a better "gimmick" for a single player game. The premise could have been the player character "wakes up" thinking he/she is just living in a typical Earth-based city. But slowly the player begins to figure out that he/she isn't really on Earth but is actually... OMG! IN SPACE! That's the climax the game should be based on.

Instead the idea that everyone already knows and accepts they are floating through space on a big space ship but they continue to be PRIMARILY focused on pretending they are merely people populating an Earth city where the -only- thing that's unusual are the existence of superheroes is fundamentally boggling to me. It's like trying to play a game of "Cowboys and Indians" under a big dome at the bottom of the ocean - sure the Cowboys and Indians are fun but wouldn't those people eventually become more fascinated by being at the bottom of the ocean and paying more attention to that situation?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

"Cowboys and Indians"

More like "Cowboys and Aliens", amirite?

Yyyyeeeeaaaahhhhh

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

More like "Cowboys and Aliens", amirite?

Still better than King Arthur.

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What Lothic is describing is:

What Lothic is describing is:

As well as countless other sci-fi stories

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

What Lothic is describing is:
As well as countless other sci-fi stories

Except in that movie, and in other stories with that general premise--like The Matrix, for a very famous example--the people aren't usually knowingly pretending the way they are supposed to be in Ship of Heroes. Usually the whole story is about someone finding out the truth.

But either way, personally it's not the premise I'd want as the overriding premise for a classic comics based Superhero/Villain genre game. Partially because I just don't like it, and partially because, while it did pop up from time to time in comics as a story or even story line, it was rarely if ever an overriding premise.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Brainbot wrote:
What Lothic is describing is:
As well as countless other sci-fi stories
Except in that movie, and in other stories with that general premise--like The Matrix, for a very famous example--the people aren't usually knowingly pretending the way they are supposed to be in Ship of Heroes. Usually the whole story is about someone finding out the truth.
But either way, personally it's not the premise I'd want as the overriding premise for a classic comics based Superhero/Villain genre game. Partially because I just don't like it, and partially because, while it did pop up from time to time in comics as a story or even story line, it was rarely if ever an overriding premise.

If I were playing a super in space, I'd want to be free to travel the Verse looking for trouble, ahem, helping people.

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Their premise reminds me a

Their premise reminds me a little of what Perpetual had planned for STO before they quit and it went to Cryptic.

Originally, you were meant to be a crewman along for the ride on a fully-mapped starship which would have stopped at various planets (presumably on a schedule). You'd be sent on away missions either at the current planet or by shuttle somewhere else and also have missions to do while aboard ship.

Superheroes on a massive city-starship doing the same thing... if the gameplay is good enough I suppose I could overlook the oddity of it but I'm pretty skeptical.

If they manage to launch before CoT I might give it a try but I'm invested here both financially and emotionally and of all the successor projects I still get the best vibe from MWM.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

More like "Cowboys and Aliens", amirite?

Still better than King Arthur.

Meh. The book webcomic was better

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
More like "Cowboys and Aliens", amirite?
Still better than King Arthur.
Meh. The book webcomic was better

Man, King Arthur was baddo (even tribal Keira Knightly couldn't save it), and I heard King Arthur: Legend of the Sword didn't fair so well here either. I feel this is unfortunate as I'm usually a fan of the Arthurian legend material. I even liked the cartoon back in the '90s. Maybe I'll just go and watch Excalibur for the upteenth time.

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Empyrean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

More like "Cowboys and Aliens", amirite?

Yeah when I thought up "Cowboys and Indians under a dome at the bottom of the sea" for my example I was just going for "a random group of people doing something that really had nothing to do with their greater surroundings" just like, it would seem, a bunch of people "playing" superhero on a spaceship would be like.

TBH, I completely didn't even think of using the "Cowboys and Aliens" reference although I guess the idea of cowboys being trapped on a spaceship fighting aliens is not all that much more silly than having superheroes trapped on a spaceship fighting aliens. ;)

Empyrean wrote:

Brainbot wrote:
What Lothic is describing is:
As well as countless other sci-fi stories
Except in that movie, and in other stories with that general premise--like The Matrix, for a very famous example--the people aren't usually knowingly pretending the way they are supposed to be in Ship of Heroes. Usually the whole story is about someone finding out the truth.
But either way, personally it's not the premise I'd want as the overriding premise for a classic comics based Superhero/Villain genre game. Partially because I just don't like it, and partially because, while it did pop up from time to time in comics as a story or even story line, it was rarely if ever an overriding premise.

To me it's simply like trying to add an extra layer to a cake that doesn't NEED an extra layer. Just because "superheroes" are cool by themselves and "being on a big spaceship" is a cool idea by itself doesn't necessarily mean that squishing those two things together will result in something good.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I often wonder if they did it

I often wonder if they did it for legal deniability. Since so much of what they're doing is a close copy of CoH, maybe they think their defense can be "But... this is in a spaceship!" I don't know if that holds any legal water, but it seems flimsy. For their sake I hope that it is meant to be a legal dodge and that they don't actually think it's a great idea for a game.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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The main MMO I play are comic

The main MMO I play are comic themed so I look at it this way.

We have futuristic title

A Sci-fi space title

And a traditional superhero title

It is no differnt than the plethora of fantasy garbage out there. This is a great thing; comic theme mmo branching out to a large sci-fi crowd. Some may think the premise is silly, but this is a great way to market a mmo. One of the biggest mmo of out time was Eve Online. I am not saying they will have ships you can control, but do not underestimate the power of the sci-fi theme.

This is much larger than CoH fans. They want to grab the attention of MMO fans, not just CoH fans. I like that SoH is different and more sci-fi oriented. Guardians of the Galaxy.

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That's apples and oranges

That's apples and oranges Lothic.

Cakes are always better with more layers.

Games are more like ... onions? When you start cutting through a lot of layers you... start crying. I dunno.

I think they really needed to write the story as a sort of galaxy heroes corps, Justice League Unlimited or something. Yes there's a big ship in space but it's just a launching point for galactic heroics. I know they have referenced visiting planets and stuff. But that really needs to be the emphasis of the game not what they've shown so far which is heroics in a city, in a ship, in space...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

TBH, I completely didn't even think of using the "Cowboys and Aliens" reference although I guess the idea of cowboys being trapped on a spaceship fighting aliens is not all that much more silly than having superheroes trapped on a spaceship fighting aliens. ;)

I just swapped out 'Indians' for 'Aliens' and made the reference (as a joke) because they're inherently in space, and that usually means aliens.

I didn't mean it to be literally about a game where there are cowboys shooting aliens in space because I think that's been done...

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

This is much larger than CoH fans. They want to grab the attention of MMO fans, not just CoH fans. I like that SoH is different and more sci-fi oriented. Guardians of the Galaxy.

What SoH has shown so far is not nearly weird enough for that. It's just a city in a bottle. We've been told that the bottle is a ship traveling the galaxy, but it's still just a bottle. Oh, and "sewers" that are cleaner than the corridors of the starship Enterprise.

What I still don't see from SoH is a coherent plan. For all the kitbashing and demo videos they've thrown out there, there's still an awful lot of hand-waving about how the game actually works. The closest we've seen to any sort of meta was the Kickstarter pitch, which was little more than a vague "MMO 101" summary of CoH combat. "Unobtanium" sounds like it could be their equivalent of questionite/dilithium/astral diamonds from the Cryptic games, but are they really implementing PWE's standard real/store/game currency exchange system? I'm not sure they get that "...but it's on a spaceship!" won't play in Peoria. It looks like they've just tried to run ahead of CoT, and expect to be congratulated, just because they put a complete line of parts together.

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I still do not know why comic

I still do not know why comic theme mmo are at the lower tier. Compared to the fantasy genre, there is more freedom. In every fantasy mmo I have played, your story is already written.

You are aligned with this npc

They shove this npc down your throat from the very beginning

You cannot even progress to the character creation screen without giving this npc all of your details

That npc is your companion, no if ands or buts about it

I really dislike that npc..

BDO does it, you are aligned with the zodiac and a black blob

GW2 basically writes your story for you, literally, during character creation

In Vindictus, you are aligned with some chick that will not spot talking to you. that game is very linear for an mmo

I can go on, superhero titles is where it is at imo if you want to write your own story.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think they really needed to write the story as a sort of galaxy heroes corps, Justice League Unlimited or something. Yes there's a big ship in space but it's just a launching point for galactic heroics. I know they have referenced visiting planets and stuff. But that really needs to be the emphasis of the game not what they've shown so far which is heroics in a city, in a ship, in space...

SisterSilicon wrote:

What SoH has shown so far is not nearly weird enough for that. It's just a city in a bottle. We've been told that the bottle is a ship traveling the galaxy, but it's still just a bottle. Oh, and "sewers" that are cleaner than the corridors of the starship Enterprise.
What I still don't see from SoH is a coherent plan. For all the kitbashing and demo videos they've thrown out there, there's still an awful lot of hand-waving about how the game actually works. The closest we've seen to any sort of meta was the Kickstarter pitch, which was little more than a vague "MMO 101" summary of CoH combat. "Unobtanium" sounds like it could be their equivalent of questionite/dilithium/astral diamonds from the Cryptic games, but are they really implementing PWE's standard real/store/game currency exchange system? I'm not sure they get that "...but it's on a spaceship!" won't play in Peoria. It looks like they've just tried to run ahead of CoT, and expect to be congratulated, just because they put a complete line of parts together.

In addition to the things stated here (QFT), they have copied CoX extremely closely in most things, and the one thing they've done differently is just, IMHO, bad.

Now, if they took what they've done so far (which is uncertain, but assuming it's substantial) and made it, as suggested, more "Galactic Heroes" like Legion of Superheroes or Guardians of the Galaxy, well... then maybe we're talking.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

I still do not know why comic theme mmo are at the lower tier. Compared to the fantasy genre, there is more freedom. In every fantasy mmo I have played, your story is already written.

More freedom = more work on things that don't count for much at industry demos. "Eh, we had UGC character backstories with MUDs. Lame."

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I agree that I don't think

I agree that I don't think the concept makes that much sense. Where do you build a ship 60 miles long, and it is not the only one. Also wouldn't you screen the passengers a little? How can crime be running amok on this ship?

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

I agree that I don't think the concept makes that much sense. Where do you build a ship 60 miles long, and it is not the only one. Also wouldn't you screen the passengers a little? How can crime be running amok on this ship?

That's almost like asking, "Why do people do bad things?" Any number of reasons. If watching Space Mutiny on MST3k as taught me anything, it's that after a few generations, people want off the ride.

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To the best of my (limited)

To the best of my (limited) knowledge, the lore involves a significant number of problems on the ship due not merely to crime, but to either rogue AI or hostile aliens. Alien boarding parties can appear while the ship is either being attacked in space or near a planet. Worse, some of these aliens stow away or plant devices or viruses or could even be hosts to other invasive species that create problems later. Since the ship is immense and not perfectly maintained or understood by its original human inhabitants, all sorts of malfunctions, infestations, and other problems have accumulated over its many years of operation.

That's in addition to any trouble from criminals or political factions among the "humans".

To answer the question of where such a ship is built, I don't know the lore, but any realistic answer would almost certainly require assembly in space by robots, using parts fabricated in factories which were themselves built in space, processed from raw materials gathered by robotic mining methods applied to the nearby asteroids/moons/planets. If their lore contains portal technology as in CoH (and CoT if I'm not mistaken), distance limitations on retrieving the raw materials can be reduced or eliminated, and parts can be fabricated even more easily by existing factories on a planet and simply sent by portal to the assembly location in space.

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

To answer the question of where such a ship is built, I don't know the lore, but any realistic answer would almost certainly require assembly in space by robots, using parts fabricated in factories which were themselves built in space, processed from raw materials gathered by robotic mining methods applied to the nearby asteroids/moons/planets. If their lore contains portal technology as in CoH (and CoT if I'm not mistaken), distance limitations on retrieving the raw materials can be reduced or eliminated, and parts can be fabricated even more easily by existing factories on a planet and simply sent by portal to the assembly location in space.

If you have portals, you've got to explain where all the power for those Stargates is coming from. Solar power falls off with 1/r^2 as you travel farther from the Sun. Pack extra batteries.

(And such a portable wormhole would be fun for astrophysics students! "The ship needs water, so we're going to dismantle Enceladus to get it. Predict the effects on the Saturnian satellite system." Or if you're really into wealth-makes-right, "Determine how much of Saturn's rings you can consume before anyone notices and complains.")

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Well in the end I think I am

Well in the end I think I am just waiting for CoT. It just seems more "grounded" (see what I did there? On the ground)

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

Well in the end I think I am just waiting for CoT. It just seems more "grounded" (see what I did there? On the ground)

CoT is like a Toyota Camry: It's grounded to the ground!

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:

Fallout1 wrote:
Well in the end I think I am just waiting for CoT. It just seems more "grounded" (see what I did there? On the ground)
CoT is like a Toyota Camry: It's grounded to the ground!

You say this while I sit at the mechanics with my Camry getting its brakes done. (Dead serious)

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Hence the creation of the

Hence the creation of the corrupt mastermind's evil enterprise: Auto Repair shop limbo. You are at their mercy. They control time, space & price! mwaa haha... MWWAAA HAAA HAA!!!

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The correct way to consume

The correct way to consume Saturn's rings would be at the source. Go to the Saturnian moons and harvest directly from the vents. "The rings aren't disappearing because we're sucking on these vents, it's because they were always disappearing." Suddenly Fiji Water is the next Exxon or Shell or BP.

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Looking pretty good

Looking pretty good


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Big guy reminds me of a

Big guy reminds me of a Battletech elemental. Cool!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Big guy reminds me of a Battletech elemental. Cool!

That is what I was thinking of seeing this, I agree. It was on the tip of my tongue. This title is fitting, because this looks like the two it will come down to. I like what both groups are doing so far, keep it up.SoH and CoT look awesome.

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I'm really liking the

I'm really liking the cybernetic parts.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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I like the cybernetic parts

I like the cybernetic parts too. I hope COT has the capability to do cool looking particle effects as part of the way the various props and such work. Like the classic "energy string magic bow" from the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon of the 80s, Thundarr the Barbarian's sun sword, etc...

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Have to agree with the

Have to agree with the cybernetic. Some of it reminds me of Cyberpunk 2020 which is ALWAYS a good thing. :p

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Game just looks amazing for a

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They deserve compliments on

They deserve compliments on those demo videos...well organized, to the point, with in-video notes and narration highlighting the progress or features effectively. I hope we can make a similar impression on new potential players as CoT begins to show some operating chunks of the game (example powerset + aesthetic decoupling show & tell; mission map + examples of environments like building interiors and caves; tour of semi-finished section of a zone; avatar builder screens; lineup of enemy models from a few NPC factions...?)

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

They deserve compliments on those demo videos...well organized, to the point, with in-video notes and narration highlighting the progress or features effectively. I hope we can make a similar impression on new potential players as CoT begins to show some operating chunks of the game (example powerset + aesthetic decoupling show & tell; mission map + examples of environments like building interiors and caves; tour of semi-finished section of a zone; avatar builder screens; lineup of enemy models from a few NPC factions...?)

Yeah, CoH's "start from the inside out and the bottom up" development method was a very smart way to go and has a lot of long-term advantages for the game, but one disadvantage is that there's not much shiny to show until late in development. And we've all seen that most people love shiny and yawn at substance in updates and marketing.

Most folks just don't realize that 3d art, animation and graphics--while very important--are the thin veneer on top of the game and not the lion's share of the work. But one good thing is that when they put the final layer of grahics on and can finally produce shiny for the masses, then, as you suggest, Scott, they can learn from the successes and mistakes of others in their videos and marketing.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Yeah, that's got to be one of

Yeah, that's got to be one of the most annoying things about modern tech is that you don't really see stuff click until you're 90% done. (Conversely, that also makes these projects difficult to manage, since there are few if any good metrics to measure progress, which helps problems remain hidden until later in the project.) It's a rampant problem. Tom Clancy noted it in a book he wrote back in the 90's, regarding the development of the AMRAAM.

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Also remember the adage that

Also remember the adage that the first 80% of the project takes 80% of the schedule, and the last 20% takes 80% of the schedule.

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It's one thing to

It's one thing to successfully wire a battery, a switch, and a light bulb together. That's still a long way from building the jumbotrons for New White Hart Lane. That's all I have to say about that.

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:

That's all I have to say about that.

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Royalty free sounds effects,

Royalty free sounds effects, static particle effects, no transition animations, tons of suspicious video edits, over use of reflective maps (every window and wall is a mirror?), minimal texture quality (if there is a texture as most seem to not have a texture at all), lackluster, empty and derivative environment design, confusing power set design (why does rifle have foot stomp?), simple/singular power animations and a odd run cycle. I am still not that impressed by what I see and unless they have some unique element we haven't heard about I continue to feel it will end up being a forgettable super hero mmo.

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What I haven't seen any of,

What I haven't seen any of, or maybe just missed it, is power customization and thus I fear it will essentially lock in fairly rigid aesthetic themes with each power set. That to me will be a huge letdown.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Ship of Heroes just doesn't sound right to me. Why would there be a ship full of heroes and bad guys? I get it that they wanted something similar to COH but I just cant get past the name.
It's not just the name, but its consequences... it's the limit to the imagination forced into the player, everything gets ultra-limited imho.
Let's play with fantasy, the game is ready and I'm creating the 1st character: I would have serious difficulties in creating a "Doc.Strange" there, nor fight demons in some forgotten place of the world, because there is no world. If I wanted to create an hero with an origin similar to Superman, where did he fall? In the ship? Found by space-farmers? What about Batman or Daredevil, will those protect a piece of the ship instead of a dark city? Could you imagine a Punisher with a pistol getting around and punishing thugs in a futuristic space ship? Even one with citizens trying to fake a normal life, still they're supposed to live in a context where the science got that far up there already.
No ancient locations (it's a space ship), no mountains, no sea or docks... even if they put some in some part of the ship, we all know it will be a fake mountain and for sure it cannot be that ancient, it will be human-made. How can serious developers think about a Superhero game and get themselves and the players trapped so much in a well defined science-context-only where everything else will never fit in well.
Really, everything in that game seems rushed to me, from the name, the story, the game it self. I think it's perfect for the impatient guys who just want to play another game (and uninstall it), but imho there are "DC Universe Online" and "Champions Online" ready for that purpose if you need to play a mmo with superheroes with acceptable customization, gameplay and graphics.
Personally I don't want "just a game asap" or I'd be there already, and SoH starts with worse expectations compared to DCUO or CO, how could I ever follow it. Their game should be really perfect to make me change my mind and still the name and location would leave me a bad taste of fake-world, imposed limits and lack of foresee from their devs.
I want a decent long-lasting game related to super heroes back to the marked ("decent" means several things, it means the devs created it with a plan in mind, with City of Heroes in mind, with comics in mind, understanding we want an universe-house back, a game that must remain solid for us for long times).
Not just good to make trailers (abusing DC names and action gameplay for the sole purpose to attract peoples and not doing much to keep them); not just copying City of Heroes character creator but completely lacking a direction (like Champions Online, was it even a mmorpg or a single-player game? Since you couldn't even share the missions the first months! You couldn't party at all, and it didn't even make sense to struggle to do that since the tanks role etc., the massive mechanics were absent or wrong).
They tried to fill an economic gap, not our hearts.
Instead when I read these devs here (City of Titans) I read my self, they really know what to take from City of Heroes and what to improve or even delete, they really took time to take decisions first, than you make the game, with a clear plan in mind and an open future.
The only reason why we paid the money and these devs keep paying their personal time building the game, is that we all disliked CO and DCUO in some way or another, and we still miss a massive superhero-themed home, because it's the only kind of mmorpg where you could be anything and be in-context with everybody else there. Ship of Heroes just destroyed that freedom with the name already and therefore made already redundant (for me) to even check if they get the massive part right where Champions O. failed, for example.

This... This is my view as well. I agree 100% just being a Ship limits my options. Where did my Ghost Girl come from? Where did my main ZOMBIE Hero come from.

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I agree with the last post

I agree with the last post too. If there were villain groups, you would think as they were captured they would be put off the ship. Also, where are the super group bases? If the upper layer is city and below is the control sections, where do all these bases get put. If it is the first to release, I may give it a try just (after listening to the reviews) because I want a new super-hero MMO so bad, but CoT is the formula that appeals to me the most. Grounded in a more "real world" setting.

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ThunderCAP,

ThunderCAP,
Great post. This sums up the way I feel about SOH way more clearly than I could have posted. The setting is something that is very important. If you aren't in a city on planet earth It is just a scifi game like Tabula Rasa. How can you fight a long forgotten evil discovered at a dig sight? How can there be a drug or crime problem on a ship? It removes my ability to relate to the characters and the city because it is too whimsical. It is like mixing metaphors. I can't get into this game just because of it's setting and concept.

I recently started playing DCU and visually it is a very stunning game. Has a great setting and decent voice acting most of the time.
It has poor sound design and very sketchy combat mechanics.

Powers have no audible impact. I can swing a giant hammer and hit 3 enemies and it doesn't even make a sound.
Compare that to COH where every power had a definite initiation sound and a definite impact sound.

Having a combat system that involves taps and holds is a bad decision. How long do I hold? When do I let go? Why didn't my combos reset? Why have a combo system and a skill system? What buffs do I have? What effects do they have? How long do they last? If I have a shield on why isn't there a shield health bar? Why can't I have a cursor on screen? The combat system is just as bad as CO. There is no impact and it is hard to time things. You don't feel like a hero.

One thing that COH did right is it made every attack matter. There was no auto attack skill. (there was a starter basic attack) Every power took a resource had a cool down and had a specific function. There wasn't a damage attack and then a more damage attack and then a more more damage attack. Charge up or hold skills are a bad idea because of the client server lag. Every skill should be push button. Toggles are good as long as they have a cost. A free toggle should just be an innate power. Group buffs are important.

DCU is fun because of the awesome and varied content. The combat is far worse than COH and can be damn frustrating at times. It is also very difficult to gear.

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Foxbat40 wrote:
Foxbat40 wrote:

The setting is something that is very important. If you aren't in a city on planet earth It is just a scifi game like Tabula Rasa. How can you fight a long forgotten evil discovered at a dig sight? How can there be a drug or crime problem on a ship? It removes my ability to relate to the characters and the city because it is too whimsical. It is like mixing metaphors. I can't get into this game just because of it's setting and concept.

I don't like the the SoH setting either but there are a few things you should consider before forming your opinion.
First, the game intends to have off ship encounters. They said they want to include visiting different planets as one of the sources for adventure options. That alone will remove most of your complaints. Long forgotten evil, a drug trade, criminal elements and such can all be accounted for.

Also, you might be picturing a smaller setting than the game intends to have. This isn't an Enterprise sized ship or even a DS9/Babylon 5 space station (both of which had a ton of intrigue and crime). The habitable portion of the ship is the size of a very large city, like New York and it's suburbs, then you add on the mechanical, docking and storage areas. Criminals and crime can flourish in a setting like that.

As I said, I am not a fan of the setting either but a clearer picture of what it will be is better to make informed opinions.

To me the setting of a city sized ship becomes too stagnant. The city itself will unlikely ever change and as such you will forever be swinging by the same buildings forever. An evolving, expanding and fluid setting is something I am hoping modern MMO's will begin to adopt.
SoH is seemingly placing all it's future game evolution into the visiting of new planets which is a niche type of superhero concept. Modern superheroes tend to have a singular place they call home and when they leave that place it is usually a big deal. In SoH's setting, AFAIK, you will spend as much, if not more time visiting a variety of repeating planets than protecting your home from the bad guys.
Most of the time a games cannon lore can be ignored to a certain extent and you can develop your own backstory if you desire but that seems highly unlikely with SoH. Predominant alien settings and foes offer less freedom for individualization than a more contemporary setting with the same elements in moderation would.
All of these things really make the SoH game setting much less interesting to me as a superhero game. As a sci-fi game it has merit, but that isn't what they are making.

I am also very doubtful of the quality of game that SoH will be. Most of the visual and communicated information from them seems to be littered with development shortcuts and simple mechanics. I really think the game will end up being generic and forgettable.

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Transient content could

Transient content could actually work in their favor. If they visit a planet and you get to adventure out there it will be a limited time opportunity. Some things could be exclusive because you only get the one chance to stomp around out there and get a keepsake for yourself. Plus the exclusivity could inspire the player base to play frequently and stay engaged. The problem is that you will be creating one-off content. The planetary visitation can have a long or short duration depending on how the host species handles a visiting alien ship. Maybe if it is 'friendly' the ship can visit again in the future.

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That sort of thing does not

That sort of thing does not fly well in this community. Plus its a massive waste of resources to visit a location for a short time and never come back to it. They'll have to establish some sort of return portal, lore-wise.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Transient content could actually work in their favor. If they visit a planet and you get to adventure out there it will be a limited time opportunity. Some things could be exclusive because you only get the one chance to stomp around out there and get a keepsake for yourself. Plus the exclusivity could inspire the player base to play frequently and stay engaged. The problem is that you will be creating one-off content. The planetary visitation can have a long or short duration depending on how the host species handles a visiting alien ship. Maybe if it is 'friendly' the ship can visit again in the future.

I agree completely that using limited duration on planetary visits could be a way to generate interest. But as Grim says, re-visits are mandatory from a development viewpoint.

Still your point stands, even if SoH cycles through an ever expanding library of new locations the ship visits it can still be a decent hook for continued play. It would be very disappointing if they used those new locations as their version of a 'Daily Quest' or put many of those locations behind a paywall. No evidence to say they will but I just wanted to voice my concerns about that type of monetization design.

New locations are great if used sparingly, but they are development intensive and quickly consumed by the players. It is much more cost effective and quick to change existing locations slightly. This will allow for more frequent new content inclusions as well as having the added benefit of making the game setting feel more alive.

Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with their choice of new locations for future development options, but my preference is to have the main location see changes as the game grows. New buildings in a downtown area, a weird fissure opening up ancient caves in the sewers, a residential area gets flooded when a villains plan succeeds and so on. The idea being that your home location should be a dynamic and interesting place, not to ship, pun intended, you off to new locations all the time.

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They stated that the planets

They stated that the planets would be revisited periodically (not one-time events) - but whether there's also a plan for a flashback / Ouro system wasn't clear to me.

They also said that the ship will eventually have twenty "levels", but will start with one. A "level" is essentially a zone plus an underground maintenance area that can be equal in area to the open-air zone (though depending on the design of the tunnel network and rooms, it could feel small or large, labyrinthine or spacious). I haven't seen any discussion yet on whether they will edit existing areas to show lore progression, but it will probably take a while before the entire ship is unlocked, since each of those zone-levels should introduce new content / lore.

How much content/gameplay will be in instances hasn't been stated in any place I've looked.

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I must admit that I initially

I must admit that I initially found the SoH setting to be extremely jarring and was dead set against it. "Does not compute, absolutely no!".

However, after watching a bunch of their videos and mulling things over, I changed my mind and I'm actually coming around to how much potential this has. I've even donated a good chunk in the hope it makes it. I can adapt my main toon backstory without much effort. Actually if you were born on the ship then you'd not really know different, it's still effectively your home and your world. There will hopefully still be graveyards for those who don't want to be ejected into space and therefore potentially ghosts and zombies. ;)

Hull breach battles looking out into space, missions with magnetic boots on the exterior, visiting all sorts of interesting planets (maybe a return to Earth or Earth 2.0 if the original planet is a polluted wasteland?), fun with reduced gravity areas and exploring space stations are some ideas.

It could be very cool if done right. I would definitely prefer a subspace portal system over periodic visits unless they are for special events.

I do think some people are being a little unfair on SoH, which, by the way isn't even in Alpha yet. It's poor form complaining about animations and sounds that aren't done and final. That would be like me complaining that CoT is rubbish because you can only play as a crash test dummy. SoH is being done to very tightly defined scopes of work and timelines hence the high amount of polish so far. A post was made by one of the devs to address a lot of the criticisms btw: https://www.shipofheroes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=453&start=15#p5256

From playing the VO investor alpha, they seem to have done tonnes of work on a large array of things with little actually looking that polished yet (hey, it's an alpha, my expectations are realistic). I also get the impression that CoT have done a lot of mechanics and systems work rather than focus on shiny stuff first, but then they already have funding and can afford to take this approach. There is too much Kickstarter fatigue now so I'm not surprised SoH are taking the approach that they have (show shiny stuff, attract and maintain interest or die). :)

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