Should all Stalwart sets have, either in the primary or the secondary set, a "Taunt" power? CoX's version of Taunt was strictly just taunt, it didn't really have different variations on the theme or anything.
What I would like to see is "tankers" with different primary/secondaries getting different ranged aggro-drawing powers that are theme-specific where applicable.
The "Super Strength" tanker could do some kind of ranged cone hand-calp that sends a supersonic shockwave at the badguys, doing no damage but some knockback/down/up, plus a lot of extra "tauntiness" added to aggro the badguys.
There could be a "Devices" or "Military" set where you lob a flashbang grenade at a mob from a distance, it has a small chance of stun, does some -acc for a little while, and aggroes the heck out of them.
You could have an Ice set that gives you a ranged "frost breath" attack that does -recharge, or -movement, or -regen, or some combination.
You could have a "Earth" themed thing where you hurl a boulder at a mob, or do some kind of seismic footstomp.
Fire tanks could have some kind of fuel-air explosive attack that sucks the oxygen out of the area and leaves the mob gasping for breath for a sec.
Electric tanks could have a taser attack that does a chained effect to multiple bunched targets (like the one Incarnate power had) that does -endo to the target and has high aggro.
The list goes on. Point being, I don't think plain old generic Taunt is good enough. I want cool ranch taunt and zesty bbq taunt and chili-lime taunt, etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I don't think Taunt should become to commonplace. In fact, I think some enemies should be immune to Taunt effects. [i] (Or better yet, remove the ability entirely, but I'm most likely in the minority for that opinion.)[/i]
Why? Monster are usually easy to manipulate with their inferior AI. There is already Crowd-Control. Throw in Tanks holding aggo (assuming they can withstand the damage) through Taunt spam almost completely eliminates threat of death for everyone else.
Swarms of monsters hopelessly dying because they are forced to follow the tank rather than attempting to take out a more valuable asset of an enemy group?
I agree with Folly that there should be more to tanking than hitting a few powers and having the enemies stick to the tank no matter what anyone else pulls off. Tanking ought to involve a modicum of skill prior to enemies wandering off because the aggro cap (if any) has been exceeded. That is not to say that tanks need to constantly hit every mob and juggle aggro and OMG I need an addon to track everyone's aggro. It shouldn't be a case of taking naps between hitting taunting, either.
This raises the underlying question about the stalwart's intended role. Are they meant to be the classic tank, who's job is to draw everything's attention, hold aggro, and be difficult to kill? Or is he the guy who ignores the small fry and goes straight for the biggest, baddest dude the enemy has says, "What? That was your best shot?"
Admittedly, in both cases there is still traditional tanking. The difference is that in the latter example, the tank trusts his team to deal with the small fry (minions & LTs) to go deal with the boss/EB/AV. After all, these are the enemies who are likely to be dealing the kinds of blows that would put a hurting on anyone else in the team. In this case the taunt would be a tool to help the tank make certain that he is the one who takes the alpha strike, or to get the boss' attention even though the boss is across the room or lost somewhere in the chaos.
Which is not to say that the two are mutually exclusive. Certain power sets could be better at the former (if anything hits someone else in my team, I have failed) while others are oriented more toward the latter (get these runts off me, I wanna fight [i]that[/i] guy).
Last but not least, I agree with Radiac that taunt animations ought to be more varied and interesting than some generic 'come get some' gesture.
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Our AI guy is snickering at this post.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
You keep intimating that the A.I. is already too smart. You've got me expecting a cross between HAL and Ultron now.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
A game without threat mechanics (for tanks and other roles *cough* controllers */cough*) is not a game I like.
Placate =/= Blind S'il vous plait.
Hmm.. I would love it if my tanks had a "Dash" (target ally) attack that they used to get near me to take threat/damage off of me.. that'd be nice.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
One of the better designs I've seen to guarantee tanks don't zone out between taunts is active mitigation strategies. Have some attacks trigger the defensive abilities, defensive abilities then broadcast a taunt-like threat, rinse repeat. Problem is it complicates isolated powersets for combo systems (like dual blades), but benefit is that tanks can't just run all their toggles at once and stand spamming taunt and a few other powers... they have to play to actually be great. Just my 2 inf. dash/intervene and taunts will always be useful, but a long cooldown/recharge has been historically used to caution against overuse, misuse, and hurt poor use.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
Visuals:
Yes indeed we should have more than hand waving and grunting, but this is tied to the Animations you select not the powerset itself. There is no 'SuperStrength' powerset but will be a (for example) 'Bludgeoning' set and you chose 'Physical - Martial Arts, Phys - Boxing, Physical SuperStrength, Weapon - Warhammer, etc' as the animation.
This will determine the list of options for your Taunt (point and grunt, throw dirt in their eyes, flash bang grenade, lift your kilt and wiggle, etc).
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
After playing some other MMOs since the demise of CoH, I really miss Taunt.
With Taunt you could peel off a large group - sometimes- and make a large mob a little more manageable. No other game I've played has that possibility. I miss it a lot.
What about this as a twist on Taunts
Let the AI can target a particular class or area.
Give the player some sort of Absorb Aggro power that can either being single target or a directed AOE.
Then you could have situations where there might be large scale AOE damage effects in an area that require your group to stand in a specific spot. The AI could respond to the pre-programmed "safe" area and swarm it. The Tank would cast his Aggro Absorb and anyone rushing into that area is now targeting the Tank, leaving the group behind him to attack. Call it "Hold the Line".
Or say a boss or CC mob wants to go after certain classes, you could cast your Absorb on that teammate to direct aggro at you instead.
Rather than give it to the "defense" sets, you could have several aggro management powers in a pool to pick so you can pick some form of aggro management on anyone.
+1.
I understand all of the arguments against or for severely limiting taunt, but I miss it. I find myself in other games doing just fine tanking, but feeling like I'd be having more fun and freer if I had taunt.
For example, without taunt, tanking can become aggroboting so that all you do is fight to keep aggro. With taunt, if you're good you can aggro/dps or aggro/debuff or aggro/cc, or even aggro/heal. It's much freer and more fun.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Elder Scrolls Online is currently suffering from the lack of Aggro Magnet skills. There's only like 2 or 3 skills that allow aggro grabbing/increased threat generation, and that's essentially pigeon-holed everyone into using JUST THOSE TOOLS to get the job done, leaving a rather unsatisfactory experience. Why? Because there's no Punchvoke. The only Taunt you can do are specific attacks. It just makes Aggro Management way more of a chore than it needs to be, relative to the City of Heroes experience.
Then again, I'm a fine one to talk.
/smirk
I once ran an ITF on a Tanker Tuesday on Virtue with my Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker and got awarded MVP for the run by the team leader. Why? Because on a team of 8 Tankers, I was the only one who could get and hold any aggro! Every other Tanker on the team was starved for aggro, because my build just INHALED aggro like a wind tunnel! Didn't hurt either that I played my Tanker so aggressively that I was more like a Brute than a Tanker in terms of rushing steamroller beatdown (thanks to Energy Absorption being a PBAoE click buff). And yes, I had Taunt ... and used it ... on top of Chilling Embrace, Icicles and Frost to hold onto aggro.
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NOTHING grabbed Agro like an Ice/ Tank.
I ran an Ice/Earth Tank and with the two damage aura's (I slotted the Damage Proc in Chilling Embrace) it was awesome. Add in the Earth melee AoE KD power (forget the name?) and all the Slows and it was SHWEEEEEET!
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
i wanted ranged assassins in groups. when a tank get near and his taunt aura hit most, but not all, i want that one scout to down the hero who pops the first heal on the tank. for i must utube the event, for the reaction.
hope for supermeanies. you all better hope they dont let me be master meanie of all the npcs in a zone. that would be my playstyle.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
I believe that the primary issue at hand here is how to deal with Aggro Management in general. I propose a series of relationships that the designated "tank" can take advantage of in order to manage aggro without having the very cheesy feeling "taunt" that feels both like a waste of a power and designer neglect for the player that chooses it.
Aggro Generation:
Aggo Generated = (Damage x Control) / Distance
Aggro Loss Rate = Time x Distance
In order to take advantage of these mechanics, the "Tank" is to be designed as a beefy melee character (keeping the Distance variable low) that has a mix of moderate AoE Damage and Control to achieve a large amount of Aggro generation, with minimal bleed. Additionally, the means of "peeling" a stray mob that is chasing a squishy is to knock it on its ass (generating a large amount of aggro) while the squishy runs away to allow the excess aggro they've generated bleed off.
This also means that there are no useless powers when the Tank goes solo, because all of their powers that are essential for group aggro generation are also their go-to debuffs/crowd control to mitigate damage while solo.
This would allow different types of characters than traditional tanks to serve as an effective off-tank that can cover the back-line by similarly closing to melee range and controlling the loose monster, without needing to fit a designated "taunt" ability into their build, thus achieving greater flexibility in teamwork.
In terms of balancing the formulas listed above, it would be simple to apply some constant to any given variable to modify its overall effect on the value in question.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
In another thread we discussed how taunt is, or could/should be seen as, a mez/confuse power. If a taunt could also prevent enemies from fleeing, this could still be useful for solo play. Anything that helps me not have to chase down some enemy is good, in my book. It could also be useful to keep enemies close for any powers that become more powerful the more enemies are nearby, or to help keep them in an AoE effect, etc.
As I said in my previous post, it would be nice if there were more to tanking than just hitting a few attacks, and perhaps taunt, to collect all the aggro and then taking a nap. (Which may well depend on whether the player is tanking, or built to tank, lots of small fry or the big, tough bosses.)
In any event, every power will not be useful, or shine, in every situation.
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But there WAS more to tanking in CoH than that--so much more--and it was exactly because of taunt and that's why I haven't enjoyed tanking in other games nearly as much. In other games that I have played (and of course I haven't played ALL other games), a tank's job is just to tank, Period. It takes all of your energy and attention to just hold aggro and that's all you can do to do a good job in your role.
In CoH, I could "collect all the aggro and then..." take a nap? Sure, OR focus on my self-created secondary role that was totally decided by me! Single target DPS the boss, throw out AOE, be a secondary source of support or crowd control, or whatever I used my powers and their secondary effects to define as a self-made secondary role.
And of course I was never going to be as good at these things as the AT's focused on them, but it did help the team and it made for a much more heroic-feeling type of tanking--with some ass-kicking and/or team support thrown in--rather then feeling like my only job was to constantly go "hey, hey bad guys, hey, hey, no, over here, hey!"
And I guess one could say "well then, don't play a tank, that's a tank's job", but I cut my teeth on CoH tanks, and that versatility and lack of being totally pigeonholed into one role is part of what I desperately miss in other games.
It just made you feel POWERFUL, which to me is how all heroes should feel.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Don't forget the Masteries. While the details are still not yet open to the public Im sure there is will an "Aggro" Mastery that makes it easier for Stalwarts to grab and maintain aggro.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
To be honest I think that it should be more along the lines of this
Ability 1 - Single target - (any damage) - as you progress through the game you should be able to upgrade said ability through enhancements or spending allocated points from your adventuring and increase it's threat
Ability 2 - Cone aoe - (any damage) - as you progress through the game you should be able to upgrade said ability through enhancements or spending allocated points from your adventuring and increase it's threat
Ability 3 - pbaoe - (any damage) - as you progress through the game you should be able to upgrade said ability through enhancements or spending allocated points from your adventuring and increase it's threat
so on and so on. if you want to make your character a high threat generating character that's honestly how I would implement high threat generation without really needing a taunt. I honestly think Champions had the right idea on that but it was too limited *shrug* I would like to see something along these lines because I do enjoy not needing a taunt.
Zekna, Black Mana Guardian. (sewer power leveler)
I have always viewed tankers as group fighting specialists or melee controllers. They can take the punishment being dished out by multiple opponents so they often find themselves surrounded by attackers during battles and have honed their fighting skills to fit those situations. A good portion of the attacks are geared toward striking multiple opponents which would naturally pull attention onto the tanker/stalwart character so a Taunt button should not be needed.
From a game mechanics perspective this means mostly cone, AoE and PBAoE attacks that deliver the brunt of the damage to a primary target with a finite number of other targets in logical range taking lesser splash damage. Add in short duration secondary mitigation effects like knockdown, stun, blind etc. that apply to and aggro all targets hit to help with crowd control and also bolster the survivability of the taker/stalwart and you have a very effective class in any situation.
"All things being even, I'll take impossible odds."
- Crash MacTavish
Welcome to the club. Get rid of taunt. You got no taunt, you got no tank. You got no tank, and the whole, tired, every game on the planet tank/heal/dps model vaporizes.
Now you have to rely on more dynamic fights, and defenders and especially controllers become vastly more important.
Tanks think they are melee. They are not. They are crypto-controllers. This defective model has been forcing melee to be wimpy for 20 years now. Scrapper was the first to truly break with this, and they didn't have to rely on the equally tired rogue or monk melee designs, which were also shamefully underpowered, all for fear if creating a de facto tank mage -- a character with awesome armor and high DPS.
Game is many vs. many. Old school EQ model of many vs. single yard trash equivalent to a boss in other games is over. Let the hectic of many vs. many reign supreme!!!
__________________
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
And yet, Tanks were still useful in their role without having to rely on dps and while many ATs and a variety of builds could "tank" with various methods, none were uniquely suited for nor could do as well as hacing an actual Tank, taunt (as a power not n effect not withstanding). Having a tank perform their role well did not immediately result in teams using the "holy trinity" strategy either. Having both played as and with tanks with pretty much any other AT a well played tank was always an asset to a team.
Now that being said, we are not getting rid of taunt, but it is not of itslef a cornerstone of our Stalwart role. If you refer to our update on the primer to masteries, one one of the mastery paths for Stalwarts relies on direct aggro control (which is the entire point of taunt). And you will notice that all of our mastery powers do not require the use of a power solely designed for the mastery to operate, they are all "passive" abilities (to use a common gaming venacular). They may require powers within a primary or seconday to be used in order to apply their effect, but a mastery isn't anything switched on or off.
This fuses player actions with their build's playstyle and classification's play style. In the xase of ranking and taunt, the Stalwart with the appropriate mastery power actively taunts theough the use of their positioning and powers.
Also, whenever we can avoid it we have stayed clear of binary effects. In most games taunting an AI relied on how the AI respinded to their own aggro listings. One of the first things that our Ai dev requested is to not allow taunt or any effect work that way but work the same way for pcs and npcs. While the entirety of the various contril mechanics (yes this includes taunt) bears in depth testing, we're confident that the basis of the systems are a solid foundation to build with.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Right, so you wind up with dps/dps/dps instead, which is not an improvement.
Elder Scrolls Online did away with anything resembling a Taunt "power" ... and suffered for it. There are no Aggro Magnet ways to manipulate who draws attention, thus ensuring that everyone is threatened equally. That means that anyone "squishy" can't rely on a Teammate to keep them safe from unwanted attention.
The JOB of Aggro Magnet doesn't go away. Removing the TOOLS to do that job "professionally" is inherently unwise.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I still think the game could go a long way by presenting any taunt effect as an outright control power rather than a generic "taunt" / "make enemy stupid" button. To lean on "Log Horizon" again, one of the primary "taunt" powers in the game is called Anchor Howl. Anchor Howl, however, does not force the enemy to take any action. Once it has been used the enemy has three choices: attack anything else and suffer (massive) damage as a result (i.e. Anchor Howl's primary effect), do nothing, or attack the tank. Given those choices, most enemies choose to attack the tank.
Judging from Tannim's post above, at least one method of tanking will involve a mechanic similar to CoH's [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Gauntlet]Gauntlet[/url] (aka "Punchvoke"). Naturally this will favor AoE-heavy power sets.
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See...THIS is one of the things that encourages me most about the future of this game. I WANT an AI that is smart enough that we can ask it to do smart stuff to add challenge and variety. If we can call upon the AI to use real tactics then we can stop (or at least cut back) leaning on the same old game methods to provide challenge like more Health, more targets, more Resistance to damage or whatever.
CoH was touted as a comic book simulator. Now think about ALL those comics we've read through. Normally it was the faceless Hydra minions or AIM goons that fell for Tanking by piling on Colossus (the very model of a Tank IMHO) to no avail. The mid-level guys and bosses KNEW that a simple pistol wouldn't faze him so they didn't even try. They ran away, called for more backup or changed tactics. If the AI for CoT can do anything even close to this then I think we need to rethink game theory completely.
I want the lone guard (or pair of guards) to run like hell when the team shows up...not stand a be destroyed. Why? It gives Stealthy people something to look forward to. When half the minions are down I want the other half to seriously consider surrender or fleeing. Not 'fleeing to another room' but I mean 'get me the hell out of here!' When most of the base has been crushed I want the guys in those last two rooms to clear out before we even see them. Does this go against game principles? Sure it does. But where did those game principles come from? Limited reactions dictated by AI.
Imagine how great (to me at least) it would be if you REALLY had to think about what you were doing based on the goals of the mission...just like in the comics. Bad guy is going to launch a missile and we have thirty minutes to stop him? Ok...kid gloves are off. No distractions...no sidetracking to fight every goon along the way. Fight to the control room, defeat the boss, stop the launch...PERIOD. How about the 'breaking in to gain information' type of mission? Ok...several ways to go here. Sneak in and steal the data. Zero residual trace...in and out. Smash and grab...but you risk the bad guys getting away with the prize. Have to be FAST to do it that way. How about we split the difference? (This works for the typical PUG that will be a mixed bag of ATs and builds). Some go in the front door to draw the attention of the minions and leaders while the rest try an end-run (which would not be possible without the distraction).
I don't think we need Tanking in the traditional sense. Why do 'Tanks' draw so much attention? What mystical power makes us want to target THEM? Big, scary appearance? Nope...I've seen Tanks that looked like midget fairies. I had one that was as short as the CC could make him named Crimson Atom. It's a mechanic, pure and simple and if the AI for CoT is up to it then I think we need to break that mold just like CoH broke the Holy Trinity from the early days of gaming.
IMHO Tanks should have single-target Threat only. Their job (in a game setting) is to head for the most dangerous target in the room. Why? Because they're the only one who can take the hits. Notice I didn't say 'defeat the boss' because they may not be able to do that alone. However they're the ONE person in the group who can stand toe to toe with the big enemy and not die. Their Taunt (for lack of a better word) is built into their attacks AND the fact that they don't fall down easily. So the longer they stand against the foe, the MORE the bad guy wants to knock them down. Other flunkies might pile in or not as the situation warrants but they suspect that if their boss can't drop the guy with HIS powers then what good is a minions going to do?
If the Devs are so proud of the AI, let's challenge them. Sure, you can put the game on Easy level and eat popcorn while you mow through enemies one-handed if you want. However for those that REALLY want to sink our teeth in I say break out of these old modes of thinking and go for something really great.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
So, the AIs should have 'Shifty', 'Devious', and 'Evil' settings, as well as a basic 'Goon' setting? Because it's a well-established principle, that villains aren't very smart and even masterminds tend to have blind-spots big enough to drive oil tankers through. I mean, that's the whole purpose behind the Evil Overlords List - to help remind them to not be dumb about things.
I don't agree that the 'smart minion' ratio would be at Half, leading them to flight/avoidance. Maybe 10%. Although, if one or two gets away (or surrenders), the rest may follow. 'Smart minions' might stand back and analyze the effectiveness of a battling Boss, but Most minions are going to pile into the fight to 'help the Boss'.
Hmm, [b]Surrender[/b] may be an interesting option in AI behavior. Even 'escape' after being nominally captured. Do the PCs leave a teammate to guard the prisoners? Is there a mechanism to teleport the prisoners to 'Holding' for processing? What about those groups that have 'anti-teleport' systems that hijack medi-porters into 'jail'?
I agree, 'Tank' is a mechanic, or even a Position on the team, which can be fulfilled by any character with a decent damage-mitigation ability. Personal Force Field makes an excellent 'tank', unless the goons figure out that you're not a threat. Taunt is a form of Control and I've argued that Short-range Control powers would make a good 'Tanker', so they didn't only have to be melee-focused. 'Fling Poo' could be a stronger taunt than 'Punch-voke'.
A 'tanker' stepping out in front of his group and shouting, "Come on, you slimy bastards, Hit Me!" is going to effect the opposing group, just, maybe, not all of them. 'Smart minions' might fall for it at first, then think, 'Wait, what am I missing?' and look around to see another dangerous threat, like the 'stealthy-guy' heading for the control panel and the 'big switch'.
I don't see this as a matter of 'breaking molds', but one of developing more dynamic systems. These extra dynamics don't need to be applied to every situation, but they can make some situations more interesting. Thus, players may have to develop strategies to counter them.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I would like to see taunt be treated similar to other control powers (as it is one)....minion class is easily affected, luets less so, bosses even less all the way up to the world eaters. That being said, the TYPE of foe you face should be taken into consideration as well.... a combat robot would be less likely to be swayed by a taunt but a gang banger would be more likely to fall victim to it. Treating taunt like a control and using the same system already spoken of (that stronger foes require multiple applications but each application has an effect) would make taunt a more versatile power not just for team use but solo play as well.
There are many types of differing minions...from the common street thug to the highly trained soldier. Lumping all minions into the same AI routine would be a mistake.
Fanatics would be less likely to surrender or flee and purse snatchers would be less likely to stay and fight. With each foe group having its own set of rules players can get a feel for the group they face and plan for it. If they are facing a street gang they know that the foes won't be super powered AND they won't fight to the last. If its a professional body guard then the body guard will fight but the guy he is protecting will run and hide.
Giving the players a more unique feeling for each set of foes beyond just what powers you face and how they are dressed will provide an impression of the foes without it being forced upon them. It would breath life into the world.
Going all the way back to the OP's comment....I think it would be cool to see the 'taunt' power of each type of set have a different effect as well.....the end result being a taunt but some kind of other aspect that fits thematically with the set itself. This type of 'taunt' could also have foes it is more effective against (still works on all foes but one type moreso). Just sitting there and bellowing 'get over here' in a bad scorpion impression is a waste to me....mages pulling out a hypno stone or a street rogue tossing a small firecracker at the guys head...anything that gives a more interesting idea of taunt than CoH's grunt and crouch is more interesting....and it fits more in line with the promise of customization.
dispite CoH having the ATs available to create the trinity it was rare that it was ever actually followed in my experience. I will say that "trinity" team that had been doing adventures together for awhile made it really easy to burn through missions. everyone knew their role and were able to act accordingly to great effect and baddies fell.
when we look at ditching the trinity model altogether, it becomes more about myself than the team.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
My experience was that Any team that played together regularly, would tend to steam-roller default-threat-level missions, regardless of the ATs involved. I played with a guy that was ALWAYS a Scrapper. Even when he played a Defender, he played it like a Scrapper. We actually developed a few pairs of Defenders specifically to maximize their defensive and offensive powers (rather than healing), so that we could both play balls-to-the-wall Aggressive, like Scrappers.
A team could do that precisely Because they got used to 'what the other guy could/would do'. They would learn how to support each other, but also what they each Can Do with their character and how to make it better. A practiced team didn't have to discuss strategy and tactics much, they just went out and did those things because they work.
Taunt had the advantage of being Predictable. A team could trade aggro more reliably with Taunt. I agree with the basic premise that 'control abilities' (like Taunt) should not be 'binary', all-or-nothing effects, but Taunt ought to be reasonably reliable and predictable.
Be Well!
Fireheart
What is broken are underpowered controllers (including defenders with controller secondaries). Is the grav controller (or force or whatever) who could shove large quantities of yard trash into the corner any different from a tank? Yet this was seen as overpowered and nerfed.
Yet the ancient tank model persists.
Again, the broken aspect are underpowered controllers. With no tank, they will game balance accordingly.
It makes AI utterly stupid and unrealistic. "Ignore that guy in a ton of armor!", and the tank is useless. You have to invent the idiotic pseudo-damage of taunt. Get rid of it.
Worse, taunt-as-pseudo damage again reveals the internals of how incalculably stupid the AI is -- "Attack whoever causes the most damage + pseudo damage". Add in " + healing points" to put healers on the list (another type of pseudo damage) and call it a shameful night with a tired, almost 30 year old design going back to muds.
Why is that even the core AI rule? NPC: "OH MY GOD MUST ATTACK WHOEVER HITS ME HARDEST!", the rule of failure. Here is a far more sophisticated 3rd grader's level of AI strategy: "Clobber healers, then controllers, then blasters, then scrappers, and ignore utterly useless bags of hit points with a plastic wiffle bat from Toys R Us."
Ahhh, this game will instantly devolve into tank holding masses while people pick off ones and twos. Just silly like every other game. That which isn't solo-able, that is.
I don't expect it here because of the fantasy of the tough guy, but, like islands in the Pacific during WWII, the trivial strategy of you just sail around the ones you don't care about and pick off the real targets, then go back later would do the trick. Witness the silliness in PvP of taunt forcibly redirecting your target to the tank for some seconds. Jeebus H.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
I can't disagree with you, that Taunt is illogical and somehow unrealistic. Player characters are smart enough to [s]murder[/s] defeat all of the squishies first, since that's the fastest way to reduce the incoming damage. The tanker-type then becomes a can-of-doesn't-woop-ass that can be chopped down, eventually.
If the AI is any kind of smart, it could do the same thing, just by prioritizing "who is creating the largest change in hit-points?" But let me ask you a question... Would you Really like it if the AI did that to You? "Gang-bang the 'healer'!" "Counter-nuke the Blaster!" "Dog-pile the Scrapper!" And then, "Clean up the weeping pieces."
Without a Tanker to hold Aggro, no-one would dare Heal in a big fight, they'd be an instant grease-stain. Without a method of holding Aggro, there would be no reason to have heavy armor and act as the team's 'anvil'. Suddenly, we're playing City of Solo Scrappers.
No thanks.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Taunt is a Psychic Attack. Its nothing close to what a Mage can do, but... ehhh.. you take what you can get right?! ;D
PunchVoke is something similar to The Crows mental transfer of Pain or Other emotional states through contact:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZUEx91ny8
"I want to play an aggro magnet."
Okay. Here's a game with no ability to manage aggro other than DPS.
"Huh?"
"I want to play a sniper."
Okay. Here's a game with no long range attacks, which penalizes you further for attacking from long range to ensure that melee remains unchallenged.
"Huh?"
"I want to play a Controller."
Okay. Here's a game where mez and control effect have been nerfed so hard into the ground that they are functionally useless over the long haul to keep DPS on top as the only thing that matters.
"Huh?"
Need I continue?
Taunt IS a Control.
You've said more than once you want a game with strong controls and debuffs.
Make up your mind.
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"What is broken are underpowered controllers (including defenders with controller secondaries). Is the grav controller (or force or whatever) who could shove large quantities of yard trash into the corner any different from a tank? Yet this was seen as overpowered and nerfed."
That's because there is a difference between the perception of ACTIVE control and PASSIVE control. Functionally speaking, there is no difference between a Tank taunting a dozen guys into hitting him (when he can easily take the damage) and the other guy blowing the same dozen guys into the corner. Both accomplish the same thing: One member of the team is tied up keeping a dozen enemies at bay, thus protecting the rest of the team. Can that lone character DEFEAT those dozen enemies? Sure...given time. Keep them busy...wear one down...and eventually you'll win. It's safe, slow and boring. However some players like it that way.
The difference between these two examples are the active vs passive means to the end. The Controller has to DO something in order to keep the enemy at bay and there is the element of risk because if they slip then someone might get loose and shoot them. The Tank has to hit one key and then stand there all day. If he has a damage shield he might not need to do that even. The former is dynamic and exciting because the player takes an active part, the latter is pretty dull. Why is the active way seen as broken and nerfed? Bad thought processes on the part of the Devs? Limited time to code? A limited engine with which to work? Likely some of all of these.
But comics are NOT games and they never will be. Why didn't all of the squishier members of those teams ever get shot? Because the writers didn't want them to get shot...period. You can't write a game that way. However that doesn't mean that we have to trudge through the same old methods forever either.
What about changing up some of the parameters for Aggro? Make range much more influential so that the enemy is MUCH more likely to attack the guy right in front of him rather than the guy across the room, even if the latter is doing more damage. This means that whoever happens to be closest to the foe will be judged the biggest threat except in extreme circumstances. So the closest one gets to be the 'Tank' by default. However anyone can play this role by simply charging the enemy.
Think about it. As a flunky with minimal training, you're going to react the same as any person would...you're going to shoot whoever is the greatest threat in your own mind at that time. Is that going to be that big burly guy standing in the corner (because his player is AFK) or that guy who is charging at your head with GLOWING EYES! As another poster suggested, higher-ranking foes might respond differently...or they might not.The cool, calculating mercenary is going to assess threats differently than the psychotic cultist or the ganger out to make a name for himself.
I'm not saying that we don't NEED some sort of Taunt mechanic. We likely do if only because the combat can't be scripted the way the players and devs would like. However we don't necessarily need to use the SAME metrics we've all seen before.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I'm playing another game, in which the tanker-types don't have Taunt, but still gather aggro. In that game, the enemy AI tends to move towards and attack the player with the highest armor-value. You armor is taunting the enemy. The fact that said armor could look like a couple of pot-lids, some tinfoil, leather straps and dental-floss might explain the effect.
You characterize Taunt as a passive power, and for some Tankers it was. With some powersets, just 'rocking the aura' provided enough attraction to pull the enemies down on the Tanker. However, to be fully effective, a Tanker had to Choose the taunting powers and Use them too. It was not passive, or free.
Be Well!
Fireheart
What if to make it the best of both worlds, without taunt, but still kinda with it. Since this is probably going to be a team oriented game (like CoH was), how about add a power to the controller such as a mind controller, give that powerset the ability to make the enemies seem like the only person around is the tank or the highest defense class there (brute, scrapp, whatever). I just think that'd be a cool way to add it so where it's a needed powerset like a /kin or an empathy healer or those sorts ya know?
Veteran of City of Heroes
-Elite
Another interesting idea for a control-taunt, although it would have to be a power for the tank and "affect self". Giving this power to players that they could apply to others... Well, I'm certain I needn't illustrate the griefing potential of a "make NPCs attack that player" power.
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Well for me, i prefer to stick with the tank taunt and toggle aoe aura, it worked out and it really worked... but in something like CO i always get attacked because a lot of tanks have no idea to put in crippling challenge... but even then my character is a lightning dps and puts out tons of dmg and thus that makes me get one shot from even the lowest of the low... so i prefer to begiven the ability to never get shot... maybe once in awhile yeah... like if the NPC were to use a long range attack but instead of using it on the tank he'd turn around and throw a ball of fire at me or something strong enough to kill the squishies in probably like 1-5 hits (depends on how well your character is an enhanced)
Veteran of City of Heroes
-Elite
My main was a solo "scrankster", tank chassis with a damage focus and lots of ancillary blasts, and no Taunt. When I would occasionally lead tank I got along just fine (got compliments pretty regularly) with lots of AOE because of Gauntlet "punchvoke".
I'd be up for just a good solid innate for tanks so that they could use their other powers to tank rather than the "ha HA!" Taunt or Provoke. This would have to apply to all powers and effects for Tanks, not just damaging attacks, because of the diversity of builds that CoT will have.
That way you can play like a Superhero rather than just a "tauntbot".
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
This is the sticking point right here. HOW you played (and slotted) your Tanker made a big difference in how effective you were as an Aggro Magnet. It was perfectly possible to "design" your Tanker in such a way as to make the Taunt Power something of a superfluous afterthought, only needed occasionally ... but that didn't eliminate the fact that when you needed it, you NEEDED it!
Shirayukihime, my Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker had a build in which [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Melee.Ice_Melee.Taunt]Taunt[/url] was a "situational" Power at best and something I needed (or wanted) to use only infrequently ... but when I needed to use it, I [b]needed[/b] to use it. Indeed, on my build, I considered the Range Debuff property of Taunt (which "forced" Foes to come to me) to be its most important feature, with the Aggro Magnet factor to be a very useful secondary effect. Even though I didn't need or want to use Taunt all that often, my build would have been poorer without it, even if the Aggro Magnet factor on the Power was dialed up into overkill range (by slotting it with Taunt Set IOs). It was a [b]tool[/b] in my toolkit, and it belonged there.
Now, we can argue about the "gearing ratios" between Punchvoke and Taunt mechanics as much as people want, but I'm firmly of the opinion that Taunt (in some form or fashion) belongs within the game as a Ranged Control Mez Power ... which is the purpose and function it is intended to serve.
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I'll buy all of that, Red.
Just because I didn't use or don't like Taunt doesn't mean it shouldn't exist or that it doesn't serve an important function.
Just give me a way to aggro by using my powers too, please :). Whatever those powers may be, damage or not.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
As long as there is some way for "tanks" to pull aggro away from other characters I am good. Even if it is a positioning thing that only reduces aggro on teammates it would work for me. One of the two things that frustrates me about combat in GW2 is the lack of any real way to manage aggro amongst party members (unless some kind of inadvisability power is involved).
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Does no one have a comment on the OP's original idea that each powerset has a themed taunt ability with secondary effects?
That could be difficult to reconcile with the aesthetic decoupling.
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I could see a generic Taunt power with a bunch of different animations. Fling... something, might be a good one, Insult, Mud, Snowball, Rock, Fireball, mysterious green stuff, whatever works.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I think that all powersets should be strongly themed. I would like to see 1-2 sets that break the mold with regards to Taunt but then would need to replace that power with something else. Maybe something that duplicated Punchvoke?
I'm all for trying something different once in a while but I want strong effort made to balance the powersets so we don't have rampant screaming that 'X set is OP' every other week
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I DO! :)
To be honest, I take the fact that nobody was specifically against the idea of different thematic variations as a positive sign. Whether or not the game even has a Taunt mechanic, or how it really works is a different question.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I don't see how.
There are going to be sets based around themes and damage types.....if they are going to offer a way to make a burn look like acid or fire or ice why can't the taunt be made to fit one of those as well?
I find aesthetic decoupling itself to be something difficult to deal with in general due to the fact that we really don't know how it will actually work in any great detail. I can't really grok it at this point. I would assume that powersets will have ultra-generic sounding names like "ranged burning" and "ranged kniockback" where each set is differentiated from the others in terms of what it's secondary effect.
So instead of having to remember that "electricity damage does endo drain" you're living in a world where powers could look like fire, ice, acid, black miasma, etc and do -endo. In fact, ONE toon could have all those different "skins" applied to different attack powers in the same set. You could make your first attack a dark blast that does -endo, your second a fire blast that does -endo, etc. This way the ONLY thing the powers have in common is the secondary effect.
On the other hand, maybe they'll make you pick a common animation/color suite for each set. So first you decide what secondary effect you want to power to have, like -endo, then after that you pick an animation suite, say "flamey" then after that you pick color(s) for the theme.
How this applies to Stalwarts as a class (not even worrying about the Taunt-like power specifically) I have no idea. Are you going to have different tankyness sets that have damage mitigation powers that somehow have an attached secondary effect? If Ice Armor is now "movement and recharge debuff tanking" does that mean you have powers in it that do -move and -rchg to targets you hit with punches/AoEs? If so, I guess it works just like blasty sets as mentioned above. You'd have an AoE of some kind that does little to no damage, but has secondary effects on theme with the tanking set you're in and get's lots of extra aggro. As an example, what had been the Ice tanker's taunt might be an AoE cone of frost breath (as mentioned in the OP) which does little or no damage but does -move (and/or other debuffs) and has a lot of aggro power to it. The name might be "slowwing taunt AoE cone attack" and you could skin it to look like pink flames or black goop or orange sparkles or whatever animations are available, but it would basically work as described.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Aesthetic decoupling will be carefully applied, in that when particle effects are used they will be thematic to the set in question. Just like the example of the Burning Blast from the KS update, the applicable effects will be stuff that is thematic with "burning". This theme is separate from the power set's mechanical theme, like how Burning Blast will have a damage over time theme.
Power Set names and powers have to tread a careful line of being both applicable to the set's theme while avoiding being too specific, but also fun sounding or interesting at the same time.
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- Combat Mechanic -
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I imagine:
Ranged Damage
Ranged Stun
Ranged Knockback
Ranged D.O.T. (not burning because that suggest a specific attack type, while D.O.T. could be poison, acid, burning, radiation, bleeding, freezing anything really)
And of course similar Melee attacks.
This is how my game works, so it's really exciting to me.
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How will a power set have a themed taunt if the appearance, and even the animation, of that taunt changes depending on the player's customization choices?
While some people have wondered and even posited that this may be the case, we haven't received any information that this will be possible. In my case, I'm working with the assumption that we will get animation or theme suites for the whole power set. The update is nearly two years old so a lot may have changed, but from the [url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/625583]Flash and Substance[/url] update we have: "You can also go beyond and choose how you throw the flames, from a “set” of animations. Choosing “Martial Arts," for instance, has you attack gracefully to shoot out flames."
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Its not a difficult concept. I'm not sure how to explain it better than I have before....let me try an example...
A burn set with a DoT theme...you can make it look like acid, fire, ice or radiation...whatever they offer as choices....the taunt would also have an acid, fire, ice or radiation look to it with the secondary effect of something... say a minor slow...
Maybe you spit acid in the foes eyes which causes a mild slow as they stubble around...or you give the foe a hot foot which cause a mild slow as then hop a bit...create a small patch of ice which slows the foe as they slip....radiation causes them to cough slowing them slightly.
Okay, we're kind of talking past each other. The appearance of the taunt, the aesthetics, would be governed by player choices over particle effects (I believe that's what primarily governs the power's look) and animation. The mechanics of the taunt, the primary and any secondary effects, would be governed by the nature of the power set. So one aspect of the theme (e.g. burning) is fixed while the other will be customizable.
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I think you should give each different Power Set a unique 16-digit binary number designation, just to make it completely opaque to absolutely everyone. :)
"I really love Power Set 0110010111010001, it's da bomb!" is something I look forward to saying a lot.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
If I understand Tannim222's last post correctly, then when one makes a ranged attacking toon, one might choose a ranged attack set like "Ranged Kinetics" which will have knockback/down/up effects as a unifying theme of the set. This is not to say that absolutely all powers in the set will definitely do some KB, just that the set is designed with the idea of "it's all about that knockback" in mind. All of the basic properties of the powers, e.g. whether they're single target or AoE or PBAoE or Cone, and starting base numbers for quantifiable things like range, recharge time, endo use, animation time, etc will be baked into the powers which come with that set and are not mutable.
Then, once you've chosen that set, you get to choose which one (of maybe three choices) of the "in-game manifestation / particles" suites you want for it. This will determine the shape and look of the "pew-pew-pew" effects that you get when you activate powers (with colors being a tweakable parameter in that). Above and beyond that, you might get to choose, for each power, which location on your person that power originates from (hands, eyes, center of chest, belly button, nipples, crotch, the poodle you keep in your shopping bag, etc) and what sort of animation "emote" your toon does when the power is activated, again from a list of pre-set-up choices that the devs consider appropriate for that set and that "manifestation" choice.
Is that about right?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Yup....effects are built in...appearance is a choice.
Some other ideas I had for Taunt effects in Stalwart sets:
A defense/resist toggle that is the set's main "really good" damage mitigation power which protects the toon but also has built into it a large radius aura that emanates from the toon and does little more than aggro mobs caught in it. For "sonic" or "energy" tanks this might be explained away as a noisy hum or buzz or high-pitched whine sound (not suggesting we actually put in said sounds) that the mobs can ear while the force field is on, or for Electric tanks maybe the electric force-field puts out enough static electric charge that mobs tend to spark against each other, which is annoying enough that they get aggroed, etc.
So some sets could have clickable ranged powers that aggro mobs in one abruot shot whereas others might have toggle auras instead. You might have sets that require the tank to actually taunt the mobs with taunt-like ranged attacks while other sets just build that stuff into the available toggle auras. you could even have a mastery where all of your attacks get added aggro as a bonus.
There's a lot of room to play with how the aggro get's pulled, how effectively it gets pulled, how much space each set has to devote powers in the build and slots in the powers to it, etc.
A lot of beginners in CoX had an aversion to taking Taunt at all because they didn't like the idea of a power that did "nothing" in terms of hurting the enemy per se. You could design Stalwart power sets such that all of the tauntiness has other debuffs/crappy damage just to make them more palateable while also being very on-theme with the power set and having some strategic uses as well in the attack chain.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
No, I dont like the idea that 100% of the animations will look right for a fixed animation time that's preset on a specific power.
This is not to say a handful of animations will look bad if sped up or slowed down to fit a powers expected Animation time. Might look fine.
But, this is most likely not the case for the majority of the animations.
Well, I guess, just like how were able to make a Costume for our toons, making it look really good or really bad, its up to the players to use any alternate Animations as well, weather it looks really good or really bad... and have Best Character Power Animations Mix contests as well. ;)
It would be interesting if the Devs could let us use a Min Max slider to pick a section of an animation, and they can Scale That Section of the animation to fill that Powers animation Time.
I don't think we are going to have access to every animation on a per power basis....I think we will have a some choices per power or an overall animation theme for the set...but it won't be from all the game has...just the ones the devs made available for that set.
What islandtrevor72 said, for precisely the reason you stated. It's for much the same reason that I doubt we will be able to choose separate effects for each power.
Animation time for each power will have to remain the same because that is the single greatest factor that affects DPS. I expect that the last thing that MWM wants is for the aesthetic decoupling to be judged on whether it increases or decreases DPS.
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Aesthetic decoupling in this case would simply involve use of picking an Emote from a menu of options. After that, decide if the Power has either a particle (bullets, spell ball, arrow, rock, etc.) and/or FX (beam of light, arch of a rainbow, smoke trail, etc.) that emanate from a firing point to "reach out" to the target. After that, decide if there are any FX that get played on the target (stage spotlight swings over to highlight, balloon drop for the winner, gust of wind blows to shake their hair, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w]16 ton weight falls on them[/url], etc.) to indicate that the $Target was affected by the Power (successfully).
Done.
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As I see it, the base animation time for each power should be taken into account as part of that power's design (that is, it should be part of basic power, not an option to be chosen from afterward). I say this because if it were an option, everyone always chooses the shortest animation for the sake of combat effectiveness.
As such I expect they'd have several different animation time ranges available for the devs to bake into the powers as they design them (e.g. 'quick', 'less quick', 'medium', 'long', and 'really long', or maybe not even that many) and then for each duration that might come up in the powers, they might offer several different animation emotes to attach to the power for that duration. Then as time rolls on more animations emotes will come on line as they make them. I would expect some will lend themselves to being sped up or slowed down versions of others. In fact I bet that will be very prevalent, as I think a great many animations could be sped up or slowed down and still look okay.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Its been said that the animation choices will be at a fixed time to avoid the min/max aspect. Some animations that don't work when either shortened or lengthened to the required speed will not be offered as choices.
Hmmmm.... Maybe Easing Functions on the animation might help differentiate it, making it seem More Unique. Which is a Big Draw in making players think their character is even more special than anyone else's.
But, most engines probably dont play Bone/Rig Animations with differing easing functions. I imagine its a fixed linear time. :/
I would assume that the animation would be created using this concept from the get go. Otherwise the animation would look very odd to begin with. Or are you saying offer the players a way to manipulate the easing of an animation?
I don't know about automatic easing...but with keyframes its pretty easy to manipulate the animations easing...just time consuming.
Examples of What the player sees in the powers Animation Customization editor:
- By Default:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/lvcALHr.png[/img]
- After the user Click the [+] on the right hand, and alters the Easing:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/bG0WdKE.png[/img]
I got lazy, so illustrations are mission a few things. ;)
Like the .1 seconds between each added animation for transition frames from one Animation to the next. etc...
Perhaps even allow the player to use the sliders at the bottom to specify where it should Start and End the currently chosen animation, so its no longer 1.2 seconds thats Interpolated into 0.7, instead, player can choose to use the 1st .7 seconds of the animation, and it would interpolate/scale that time into .7 seconds. In this case its 1:1, but doesnt need to be. Could have been .6 seconds.
So, you can throw in Emote Animations at the Start, End, or Both, and One Emanation Animation as you see fit. :D
So'z I can haz my Snipe look like:
- Michael Jackson Moonwalk Emote play 1st,
- and then the Energy Blast from his Hand.
- and end it with me blowing on lingering smoke from Pistol Finger. ;)
Hmm... I wonder if i can use M.J.'s Crotch Grab emote for one of the Pain Domination attacks!? ;D
Then I can test my String Theory, to see if its riding up their cracks. ;D
I can guess that MOST 3D Engines Don't Allow for this type of control, especially after the executable is built and running. :<
It would require ALLOT of Effort, time, etc... to get a Custom solution working. :<
Nevertheless, I think it would have been awesome. :]
Some examples of what I'm talking about.
You take "Quick ranged attack" as your first attack power in the "knockback" set. Basically this is energy blast's "Power Bolt" attack. So you choose that power and it has certain pre-determined things. Base damage, recharge, range, endo use, and animation time are all hard-wired into the power as it's base stats. If you put a recharge enhancer in it, it shortens the recghage time but not the animation time. If there is a way to shorten the animation time, it would be a separate enhancement, if it exists at all.
So after selecting "Power Bolt" you then see that it has an animation time labeled as "quickest" and you can then select from a pull-down menu which of the available animations you want to use. Each power would have a set of animations that are available for that power determined by the devs. So if you intend to have it come from your open palm (like Iron Man's repulsor) you'd pick the animation for that, if you'd rather the "Cyclops eyebeams" style, you can pick the emote that does that.
I think it might make sense to limit the emotes specifically to the emission points too, but that's debatable.
Other powers that use the "medium duration" animations for a "Cyclops eyebeams" type power might have the avatar slowly reach their hands upto their face and so forth to burn time (liek the Psychic blast attacks did) while the quick one just has to poke your head forward and let fly with the attack (or maybe you let fly and it pushes your head back a little, like recoil, I don't know).
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
One thing I could see doing with this idea:
if my power set has particle effects when it manifests ranged attacks, it might have effects that look like "hurl object at target" and then the objects could be a bunch of different things based on what your toon is. Throw shield (Cap), throw hammer(Thor), throw baton(Daredevil), throw sticky webs(Spidey), throw daggers made of light energy (Dagger), etc. The list of possibilities for throwable objects is almost infinite and could be added to over time with roll out of new stuff from the devs. In all cases the object is released from the hand with some spin on it (vertical or horizontal) maybe.
And then for a different particle effects suite, you might have "shoot object" option which projects objects forward with no spin (except maybe "football spiral" spin, like bullets actually have). Agains, same thing, lots of different shapes that your "ammo" can take, from needles and bulllets to sawblades, darts, rockets, energy blobs, etc.
Come to think of it, you probably want to separate out "horizontal spin objects" like disci, frisbees, pie plates, etc from "vertical spin objects" like hatchets, tomahawks, knives, etc. from "spiral spin objects" like footballs, bullets, etc. I don't know.
In any event, there's a myriad of possibilities for shapes of thrown items and projectiles.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
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Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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I direct your attention, sir, to the 'Evil Overlord's List' and invite you to contemplate how every single item on that list represents chronic, institutional failure, sufficient to spawn a meme.
Your typical villainous person practically invites and cooperates in his own thwarting.
Be Well!
Fireheart
[url=http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html]Evil Overlord List[/url]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
You assume the Nightmare has not read it before, nor quoted the list many an occasion. However, a few things must be waved.. After all, why should you utterly decimate certain foes? Where's the fun in that? No, it is better to savor their end, to watch in glee as they are slowly and helplessly crushed beneath your might.
It's less about idiocy and more about pride with some of us. Doom has to defeat Richards in the most climactic way possible, he has to take everything away from his most hated enemy before he grants the sweet release of death. Of course, being so occupied with this could mean he is unawares or dismissive of another threat.. But such is thecwaybof the villain.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Oh, I don't assume mister Nightmare is unfamiliar with the List. I've seen him quote from it. No, I presume he Contributed to it.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Contributed?
I suspect great Lord Nightmare surreptitiously created the list to expose the weaknesses of his pathetic competition, as well as to fool the do-gooders into believing that his diabolical schemes could ever be predicted.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
It's all a [s]Nemesis[/s] [b]Nightmare[/b] plot.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
All of this means that I'd never Taunt Lord Nightmare, no. I'll just point at the salad-fork he's wearing on his head, and laugh.
Be Well!
Fireheart
SALAD FORK!? You DARE mock the mighty Helmet-Crown?!
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Well, you see, I'm having this conversation with a person who speaks in Third-Person and names his Hat...
Must be a villain.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I must say sir that Nighmare fellow is quite dashing
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
Great...another puppet in a hat...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Either that or a permanent Bad Hair Day™ ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[i]I'm[/i] gonna laugh if this results in Fireheart getting griefed by Nightmare immediately after entering a PVP zone.
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[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/toon-profiles-nnekonnin-llabanttselel-aalbusuumbra-aagimundr-sstaalsol-and-doctor]My original character profiles![/url]
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]
I hadn't even considered the idea... [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYjZnI9_kg8]but now.. [/url]
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
You see? Taunting works. No matter how 'smart' the villain considers himself.
Be Well!
Fireheart
[youtube]iRlh_w6uRds[/youtube]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Well, THERE'S something the Evil Overlord List doesn't mention- [i]"If you're holding the villain ball, hold it with one hand. You may need the other to fend heroes off with."[/i]
<==========)===O|TtDd|O===(==========>
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/toon-profiles-nnekonnin-llabanttselel-aalbusuumbra-aagimundr-sstaalsol-and-doctor]My original character profiles![/url]
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]
In CoX when you made a new character, you chose a primary power set and a secondary at time of creation. you were then given a choice of two different powers in your primary set to begin play with, and in the secondary you were forced to take/live with the first power in the secondary set you chose.
What if the Stalwart's "taunt, or whatever replaces it" power is in their secondary and is the first power in that set, thus effectively forcing every stalwart to have a ranged AoE debuff attack that does decent damage at level 1 to tide you over but the daamge scales very badly with level such that by level 6 you're not really using it for damage purposes anymore, just taunting?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
[img]http://orig03.deviantart.net/ec07/f/2009/135/7/c/daniel__s_facepalm_by_xaikanokurayami.jpg[/img]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Rather than making all Stalwarts 'generic', by enforcing a first-level attack mechanism, how about making Taunt a class-level automatic 'free' power? That way, the first level attack can be 'face-punch' or, whatever suits the character. 'Taunt' isn't needed at first level, anyway. How about level six?
Be Well!
Fireheart
There aren't any classification powers other than the Mastery powers which are designed to allow the player to choose how they want to tweak the performance (in this case meaning how it fulfills the role). None of the Mastery powers require UI specific power buttons for activation.
Taunt is not a power, it is a control effect. Stalwarts controlling targets with Taunt effects is just one style (or method) of "tanking". It is therefore not a requirement to effectively tank. It is probably the easier method as far as application and effort, but it isn't the sole method. It will not be forced upon a player.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
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