When I first started playing CoH I had a LOT of trouble paying for my Enh.
I had gotten to level 18 by doing solo missions and selling most of the drops at the Vendors as I didnt know anything about the AH. So I go to buy a SO and WHF 30K each - I have barely $35K.
Shortly after that I met in game someone who later would be a friend and he gave me advice on the AH as well as moved me to the Justice server where most Aussies where and I was able to team up and get more drops/cash/etc along with information on how the AH works.
"You sold a Silver for $10 to a vendor!!!! Dont you know that is going for $100K+ at the BM?"
"Umm no. Whats the BM?"
"Sigh. OK after this mission come with me and Ill explain some things".

While the game should not be raining in money I should be able to upgrade MOST of my Enh fairly easily.
In Gear based games you generally have only a few items (5-10), Main hand, Off hand, pants, shoes, chest, shoulders, gloves, etc.
In CoH by level 19 you had 31 slots (incl Health and Stamina but not Run/etc).
Thats 31 things to buy as you rarely did enough missions vs the enemy type that dropped enhancements you could use.

Benchpresser wrote:

Honestly.. I'm HOPING ..NO.. BEGGING CoT NOT to have the "gathering" you have in other games. I despise it with a passion, I'm playing a super hero (or Jedi, Hobbit etc....) the last thing I want to do is go mine metal to make my armor!!!!
To me, CoH had the perfect balance... you hunt mobs, you get drops. There were no level restrictions to the drops (mostly), and recipes were random as well. Last thing I want my tank or villain to do is go out and literally farm!!!
Also... please please PLEASE keep drops secret from the team? I can't tell you how much I despise SWTOR for telling the whole team what you choose for each loot drop- need or greed. It causes nothing but harassment.

I don't mind gathering myself, but I agree with your last point. They PUG I'm with doesn't need to know I just how much RNGs like me.

Please dear gawd, NO GATHERING, MINING, ETC. of materials!!! I hated this in WoW!! With a deep burning passion. CoH had it right. Loot droops as part of your kills, you never had to roll for need or greed on it, and nobody knew what you got unless you told them about it. Keep it this way. Seriously the Market was not hard to learn. Once you figured out how it worked and what everybody was going after it was cake making money to buy anything in the game you wanted. Before I learned how to play the Market I had one toon that was IO'd out, after.......every single 50 had complete IO sets and several of them Purpled out. Most people just didn't want to take the time to learn how to do it.

You had the ability to get things in CoH the same way. Street sweet for components, go to AE and run missions and use tickets, complete TF's and get merits that you could spend at a Merit vendor. The Market system in CoH was perfectly fine and it doesn't need any changing. People just need to learn how to use it.

I like the idea of "you found X but you already carrying you limit, what would you like to discard" option. Rather then having zero chance at drops unless you constantly monitored salvage/enhancement/recipes and deleted stuff when it started getting full. I can understand there being a limit on how much you can carry.

Gangrel wrote:

At least the plus side for CoX was that you were not told if you had missed out on something. Although there is always that nagging feeling that you had to keep a slot spare just to stand a chance, so you tried to keep as empty as possible.

And once they implemented the bit where the word Enhancements or Recipes turned red when it was full, it was a lot easier to keep that slot or two open.

I rarely filled up salvage while in the middle of something while playing the game. I filled up while working on crafting and buying huge stacks of salvage, but really if you would take a second after exiting a mission to check your salvage you could easily see if you were in danger of filling up and need to unload. Now, that's not to say we can't make this easier to do with remote access to the market and NPC vendors we can sell too at a reasonable amount of places throughout the map.

The thing is, down time is supposed to be part of the game. You are supposed to unload junk you don't want, go shopping for new stuff, do some crafting, etc. It doesn't have to be after every mission, but at least once a play session.

Quote:

The thing is, down time is supposed to be part of the game. You are supposed to unload junk you don't want, go shopping for new stuff, do some crafting, etc. It doesn't have to be after every mission, but at least once a play session.

I routinely filled up enhancements, recipes and sometimes even salvage in a single mission and if not then before finishing the second one. I think the only exception to this was on a stalker when solo because I went past most of the mobs.

Funny, I always referred to it as "Running Logistics" instead.

You cannot carry any more.
You are already carrying : 2 turnips and 1 carrot and 3 aubergines.

I thought the amount you could carry at any given time in city was pretty much OK but then I had lots of access to vendors and storage and was very aware of how much things cost. I'd happily discard the worthless salvage/recipe when I recognised a more expensive / needed one was available. Enhancements were largely worthless after a certain level which I always thought was a shame. Almost a pity that whilst IOs got set bonuses, SO's never did.

I always like crafting games hope for a interesting crafting,done right be fun and nice done wrong people loss interst,always balance)

A preset Filter that automatically removes low Level RED Enhancements would have been nice. :)

Incoming monkey wrench!

Speaking just for myself (of course), I'd prefer it if any sort of "gathering profession" type stuff be less a function of Heroics and more a function of having a Secret Identity. That way, you can give a "purpose" to doing things in your Secret Identity such that it isn't just about hanging up the cape and taking off the mask (and spandex). Things like being a Reporter allows you to "mine" Information resources that are essentially Stories (I'm thinking "people networks" here). Being a Photographer allows you to "mine" Pictures of things going on in and around the city. Being a Computer Hacker allows you to "mine" Data and crack networks for Data. Being a Banker allows you to "mine" Financial Records for clues to white collar crime. Being a Business Executive allows you to "mine" Information found in company records and administrative reports for clues hidden within company circulars and statements.

In other words, you'd be able to use your Secret Identity to "mine" CLUES ... which you could then either hoard for yourself or sell on the open market to other Players. Your Contact(s) tell you they've got a "feeling" that there's something going on, but they need CLUES to put it all together ... and those CLUES are gathered by Heroes in their Secret Identities. Gather up the necessary set of CLUES, turn them into your Contact, and your Contact "refines" what you've found into a Mission.

In other words, you could turn "street sweeping" using your Secret Identity into the necessary "fuel" that gets used to generate Missions from Contacts. That way you have both a Heroic as well as a Secret way to play the game, and you aren't necessarily being Heroic and/or Villainous every moment that you're playing the game. Sometimes you're just out "mining resources" to generate new Missions and put you on the trail of new Story Arcs.

If you call it "research" or "investigation" instead of "mining", it sounds a lot more heroic. "Plotting" would do for the villains.

I've the bones of a system that covers piecing together missions by gathering clues and information from various, which can hook into secret identity if we use such a system, of which there are several possible routes it can take. It also involves our non-combat powers system, which also also hook into a secret id. Its a long ways off - something for a post launch release if it does happen in one form or another at all.

You'll have to buy and make use of the latest invention from Hipster Inc.

It makes all travel powers look like you're on a Segway.

Somehow I can not see a superhero in cape swinging a mining pick to gather copper. Immersion would die completely and painfully.

I actually liked not having to grind resource nodes and just play, while everything I needed just popped up in my inventory. To me it was way less tedious to take a few minutes to sort everything out every few missions than look for sparkling enemy, choose what I want, accept, look for next sparkling enemy etc. after every fight. I do not want to think about how long that would take with the hordes of foes I fought in City of Heroes...
And also, no loot was without purpose, I would have taken everything anyway.

That said, if gathering resources gets to be part of gameplay, I would like it to become something else then go to node, click it, watch progress bar, take loot and go to next node.

I could imagine something like a steady income of ressources as a reward for certain quests, like chasing some critters out of a mine or helping a labratory conduct some experiments. Setting up a camp in a secret cave with rare ores, ancient artifacts or undiscovered animals/ funghi or plants, helping to build a mining station on an asteroid... I think I better stop here, or I could go on for quite a while.

Or at least some fancy gear like mining lasers, golems or power tools would be nice and something like a minigame thats fun and rewarding while mining.

To be fair, the Alignment Tips Missions introduced in Going Rogue were effectively akin to the sort of system I've been talking about ... except without the deliberate "gathering" aspect of it all. You just defeated non-grey mobs and Tips would randomly "drop" into your Mission window (and there would be an "announcement" thrown up on your screen). Those Tip Missions gave you the option of which way to play them when you started them (heroic, villain, vigilante, rogue) and then you could do what amounted to a Newspaper/Scanner Mission. Collect 10 Tip Missions over the course of two days and you were then eligible for a Morality Mission that either reinforced or moved your Alignment around the wheel.

The system I'm proposing here would be one where (using City of Heroes terminology), the Tip Missions don't just "drop" into your "inventory" randomly ... they have to be "assembled" using "mission salvage" that you Gather using the profession you have chosen for your Secret Identity. This "mission salvage" that you gather up has to be "refined" into an actual Mission by use of a Contact that you turn the "mission salvage" into, which then produces the Tip Mission for you to go run. The added wrinkle is that it ought to be "easier" to gather this "mission salvage" through use of your Secret Identity, rather than your Heroic (or Villainous) Identity ... that way you aren't being called upon to be "super" at all times while playing the game.

I know a few people might dread the idea of scouring the map to find a contact and see if he/she/it would allow them to start that contacts missions.

What if... If you joined a PUG, and at the successful completion of the mission...
...you were also Rewarded, lets call it rewarded, ;) ...
with the very 1st Contacts Info and was eligible to start down the same Path of Contacts the present Mission Holder is running?

Why?
- I hated having to Hunt/Track Down contacts for new missions. I particularly dreaded it in CoH when trying to find the contact for a mission that I just helped a PUG team to do. I wound up doing Radio Missions for a majority of the levels from 22 to 48, with allot of TF's sprinkled throughout.
- This way, if you helped another hero/villain out with the mission, you have an excuse for reaching out to the Mission Holders contact... Its like the Mission Holder put in a good word for you.. so now the mission holders contact will work with you too. Plus, it also makes the player feel like his/her efforts are being Acknowledged, even if he/she decides to Dismiss the addition of the New Contacts Info. :)

masterghostartist wrote:

can i rob...the locals for high end raw materials?
"excuse me citizen, did you know there is a no superhero around tax?"

Of course, this is Titan City. Every so often, the citizen will respond with a smile. "Why I do believe you're right!" and suddenly start conning as a mid-tier (or maybe higher ^_^) enemy NPC of your level, who attacks immediately. Defeat him, and get more, higher-end, raw materials! Lose, and he may take any you haven't put in the bank yet...

Not sure how to do that part for folks who aren't robbers, though... Maybe like Repairman Jack's Park-a-Thon, or trolling (in the fishing sense) for rapists?

That sounds like a cool feature never seen that in game before tiger maybe something for them to look at for future issues

masterghostartist wrote:

sadly, there are those who would demand to know who got "the rare", and to see it.
then to demand it.
but listing the item in chat for future trading purposes is too good. so just lie and say you got nothing......

Well, in the Hammidon raids I went to, everyone was pretty chill about Rares and would trade drops they couldn't use with others in an impromptu player auction. The City of Heroes community is cool like that.

Redlynne wrote:

Incoming monkey wrench!
Speaking just for myself (of course), I'd prefer it if any sort of "gathering profession" type stuff be less a function of Heroics and more a function of having a Secret Identity. That way, you can give a "purpose" to doing things in your Secret Identity such that it isn't just about hanging up the cape and taking off the mask (and spandex). Things like being a Reporter allows you to "mine" Information resources that are essentially Stories (I'm thinking "people networks" here). Being a Photographer allows you to "mine" Pictures of things going on in and around the city. Being a Computer Hacker allows you to "mine" Data and crack networks for Data. Being a Banker allows you to "mine" Financial Records for clues to white collar crime. Being a Business Executive allows you to "mine" Information found in company records and administrative reports for clues hidden within company circulars and statements.
In other words, you'd be able to use your Secret Identity to "mine" CLUES ... which you could then either hoard for yourself or sell on the open market to other Players. Your Contact(s) tell you they've got a "feeling" that there's something going on, but they need CLUES to put it all together ... and those CLUES are gathered by Heroes in their Secret Identities. Gather up the necessary set of CLUES, turn them into your Contact, and your Contact "refines" what you've found into a Mission.
In other words, you could turn "street sweeping" using your Secret Identity into the necessary "fuel" that gets used to generate Missions from Contacts. That way you have both a Heroic as well as a Secret way to play the game, and you aren't necessarily being Heroic and/or Villainous every moment that you're playing the game. Sometimes you're just out "mining resources" to generate new Missions and put you on the trail of new Story Arcs.

Thus a person who thrives on knowing secrets might not work on leveling much at all. Just get to a good spot where they can mine for tips and then become an Info Broker.

I LIKE this idea

I hope they keep the system simple, like CoH. I also hope they don't use gear degrade to force time sink in the game or force an in-game economy (which often leads to the invasion of gold sellers). You could get the items you needed through play (and lots of options to do so), the supreme builds took more play. It was a simple, effective system. Crafting was not complex and did not drive professions like so many other games - the open bid market was about the closest to an economy "role".

I also think the enhancement-style, as opposed to gear, of COH fit better with the super-hero genre. While they lilnked the initial enhancements (DOs, SOs) to your hero type, it was not tough to get what you needed (and that included not depending on a crafting market of over-priced crafted items).

CoH's simplicity was just fantastic - let you focus on being super.

Redlynne wrote:

Insatiable wrote:
I hope they keep the system simple, like CoH. I also hope they don't use gear degrade to force time sink in the game or force an in-game economy (which often leads to the invasion of gold sellers).
If there's no degradation of any kind anywhere at any time for any reason, then you're willfully creating a situation in which supplies are generated in excess of demands ... usually by multiple orders of magnitude when talking about being at the Level Cap. This is an obvious source of inflation, in which supplies can never be balanced with demands.
To be fair, I wouldn't be that unhappy with a degradation sink that ONLY applies at the Level Cap ... simply because at the Level Cap you've run out excuses to keep turning over and reinvesting in your character's development (aside from Respecs and Alternate Builds, which are functionally the same thing in this context).
This is one of those Circle Of Life kinds of things. If there is going to be Creation then there also needs to be Destruction, lest the balance get thrown hopelessly out of whack. If IGC continues to be generated, but there's nothing to spend it on (or even better yet, no MOTIVATION to spend it on anything) ... hello hyperinflation. Level Cap is effectively a "special case" simply because you've run out of "up" to get to, and can thus "sit on your laurels" indefinitely without needing to worry about all the considerations you had to juggle while leveling up to reach the Level Cap (such as replacing everything every 5 Levels).
I get the fact that everyone wants to Keep THEIR Stuff for all eternity (because it's MINE damnit!). I really do. But when you create a situation of sustainable stasis which yields (very nearly) ZERO demand, you're going to have problems if you don't also modify rates of supply accordingly.

Perhaps use death as a sink. each death degrades one's enhancements by a certain percentage requiring them to be replaced after a certain number of deaths to retain their efficacy. Make those enhancements, or whatever they're going to be called, that are rare be more resistant to degradation, whilst those that are common take a bigger hit to their efficacy.

The primary reason there aren't any plans for augment degradation is that augments are not wholly about "gear" or "items". Most games with item wear also tie the item to appearance. Not only do players not want loss of performance, but a loss of how they look too should an item be destroyed.

Most games that use item wear are design around the constant need for upgrading to achieve the highest rate of success simply in order to reach the nest threshold of content in which the previous gear slowly becomes insufficient. This game will be based around the standard augment as the basis of performance. In other words, gear grinding is not centeic to progression.

The closest to degradation that exists is the comparitive level of the augment to the player. This is where the higher the player level is over the augment level, the less effective the augment is going to be until it is useless.

Suggestions such as degrade augments that are "more than necessary" only serve to further incentivize a system that is not intended to be designed that way. Which makes those who are not yielding a greater than average gain of IGC and happen to get said "better than items" at a greater disadvantage. More so, in quite a few games, repair costs are such that even when acting as a sink are set up in such a way to be comparitively applicable to all ranges of player levels with the median earn rates of currency mind. The same out same can be achieved by properly tuning earn rates from the outset. Which is particularly important for a game not designed around gear progression.

Even the sugggestion for degradation at level cap isn't applicable here, as for the time 50 may be the level cap but it is possible that may change. Our character progression systems including how we design powers are adaptable to increasing levels. If at some point in the future the level cap is increased, the gear degradation "at cap" either becomes a constant moving target, or we end up with a gear progression-like system which is not what we set out to do.

Sinks in this game will have to come in the form of expendables. Providing temp powers that are highly useful, or specialized for particualr tactics, or advantageous for unique encounters (but not "necessary for such"), and not just as a novelty will go a long way here. As well as instilling an appropriate earn rate system and then providing sinks around what players can do. Furthermore, having unique systems such as NPC marketeers that play the market as both a method of curbing market cornering and draining resources from the economy to curb inflation and a few other ideas we will explore should give the dev side plenty of tools with which to help maintain the health of the economy.

Keep wishing us luck Red, we need it. This isn't sarcasm but honst truth. You single out two portions of what I said regarding the economy trying to counter what is purposefully given in large brush strokes. The primary point being is what type of game we are making and creating systems to support that game.

Yes we have to be aware of the effect of perfemance metrics with regards to advantages. There is no balance, it is a false god. There is bounds of performance and as lonf as we have appropriately set those bounds of performance then anything a player can huld toward even with advantages, will be within the range of what the system recognizes as acceptable.

With regards to the NPC marketeers, try to think less of the standard programing of AI. More emphasis on taught behaviors which can continue to learn over time and less prescripted behavior instead of pure scripting. With that we can not only use them by providing the appropriate inputs (needs / wants) but also using their bank as a way to collect and literally delete currency from the economy if we need to. Which will in turn cause the npc marketeer to continue working the market to "get rich". And yes the npc marketeers could be "ebil" but they would be the dev's "ebil" which in turn serves toward the health of the game.

It is a big if there I admit. There is a lot of work ahead to make this new thoe of AI for gaming. But if it works, and here is part of all that luck we need, we will have something unique to gaming, particularly MMOs. Something proprietary to Missing Worlds Media as a company. Segev seems fairly certain of the probable success, it is his area of expertise afterall.

I should add, inflation is inevitable. Especially as the game ages. The best that can be provided then is wYs to curb inflation. Some of that is how many systems are set up and possibly asjusted over time (hopefully not too much!). Some of that are additional tools that can be adapted easily as the economic environment changes. It is here (like with the npc marketeers) that should be areas of concern. Knowing when and how to tune adaptife systems is going to be very important to get right.

Tannim222 wrote:

Keep wishing us luck Red, we need it. This isn't sarcasm but honest truth.

I wasn't being sarcastic. It's a monumental undertaking with lots of "fiddly bits" that can all interact in ways that are inherently unstable (before adding in the instability brought on by Players trying to "break" the systems to their own advantage).

Tannim222 wrote:

You single out two portions of what I said regarding the economy trying to counter what is purposefully given in large brush strokes.

To be fair, I've been talking in very large brush strokes too.

Tannim222 wrote:

Yes we have to be aware of the effect of performance metrics with regards to advantages. There is no balance, it is a false god. There is bounds of performance and as long as we have appropriately set those bounds of performance then anything a player can build toward even with advantages, will be within the range of what the system recognizes as acceptable.

Hence my use of the term "dynamic equilibrium" which necessarily implies a region of acceptable possibilities, as opposed to a "fixed" point. I agree that it is preferable to create/design a "large enough" region of acceptable possibilities within the game can Work As Intended. However, depending on how things get designed, it is entirely possible to create systems that in essence "hollow out the center" and push everything towards the fringes of performance. Now instead of a "solid blob" region of acceptable possibilities, you're instead dealing with something like a "donut" or a "hollow blob" because the multipliers push outwards from the center. Net result is that the volume of acceptable possibilities in effect shrinks by shifting everything towards the margins due to the effects of the multipliers (what we've been labeling Temporary Advantages in this context).

To give a City of Heroes example of the phenomenon, think of the Defense Softcap. As a */SR Scrapper I was supremely aware of the Defense Softcap ... because when my build wasn't AT the Softcap, my protection scheme crumbled and collapsed with alarming speed and probability. Functionally speaking, it was effectively "Softcap or Debt!" because every other option was so demonstrably inferior. Even though there was a wide range of Defense values, in almost all cases the only ones that mattered were either +45% (ie. Softcapped) or +32.5% (burn a [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspiration#Defense_Inspirations]Luck Inspiration[/url] to reach the Softcap for 60 seconds). So the min/max equation "demanded" some very specific answers, with most other results being either inadequate or otherwise inefficient. This then hardened into Conventional Wisdom as the easy way to remember What To Do.

Tannim222 wrote:

It is a big if there I admit.

It's Experimental Tech. And you're needing to design it for something that will NOT remain in a steady state. That's a challenge even before you get into specifics. Go Segev, go!

Tannim222 wrote:

I should add, inflation is inevitable. Especially as the game ages. The best that can be provided then is ways to curb inflation. Some of that is how many systems are set up and possibly adjusted over time (hopefully not too much!).

This is one of those situations where it would be better to have "too many" pressure relief valves (or at least, more than you actually wind up needing) than not enough. In that respect, I'm personally in favor of a bit of "overdesign" so as to give yourself some redundancy [i]in case you need it[/i] rather than assume you've got it all right the first time (which hardly ever happens). That way, you've got OPTIONS built in from the get-go, rather than needing to scramble to figure out a kludge response after the fact.

Tannim222 wrote:

By the way, my comment about sarcasm was not intended as a dig at you. I was being clear because. I was aware that what I said could've been easily misinterpreted as sarcasm directed at you.

Non-problem. I didn't interpret it as a dig at me, and was disinclined to think so even if it was a possibility. I was also being clear, because text eliminates a tremendous amount of verbal context. I was merely pre-emptively saying, "right there with you on that one."

Ehhh.. Man.. this stuff makes my head ache. :[

Any chance Free 2 play user will be limited to 1/2 of what a Subber might be able to trade sell, etc.. in a 24 hour period?

Maybe even put Clamps (min and max) on cost of Items that are put on sale in the Auction house, for both F2P as well as Subbers (micro sub with Marketeer perk?).

Insatiable wrote:

This whole discussion comes down to the theory of economy in the game

Yes. It does.
That's why the topic is so important. It's a core component that will affect the longevity of the game.

Insatiable wrote:

Why do items have to degrade?

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy]Entropy[/url].
If there is no entropy in a system, you can get away with perpetual motion machines, because stuff doesn't run down or wear out (or need to be maintained).

If nothing ever degrades in any way, then you have created a self-sustaining stasis that can/will last for all eternity AT NO COST.

Or to put it another way, if nothing ever degrades, then that's why there were No Gas Stations in Paragon City. No one ever needed to refuel their cars ... ever. You buy a car and it runs forever. The vehicle never "consumes" anything and nothing ever needs to be replaced in it. No "repairs" necessary. [b]EVER.[/b]

As a [i]consumer[/i] that sounds incredibly awesome. Infinite range cars that never break down!
As the basis for an economy though ... you've created a problem.

Insatiable wrote:

If you can repair items - then your economy is basically the same as if it doesn't -

If you really believe that then I've got some beachfront property in [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado]Colorado[/url] I'd like to sell you (mean elevation: 6800 ft / 2070 m above sea level).

Think of it this way. A game's economy is like a big bathtub. IGC that Players earn is water that goes into that bathtub. If there aren't any drains in the bottom of the bathtub, it will overflow (ie. inflation) and pour water over the sides. How [i]strong[/i] that force of overflow is will determine how much inflationary pressure there is in the game's economy. If there are ZERO drains in the bottom of the bathtub, you're going to have to bail water out of it using a bucket in order to try and prevent the overflow, rather than just "pulling the plug" and letting some of it swirl down the drain pipe (or better yet, lots and lots of little drains all working in concert to stem the rising tide of water in the bathtub).

Now the simple fact of the matter is that you don't want to create a situation in which the water "level" in the bathtub, in total, never goes up or down. You do want the water level to "rise" over time and effectively "slop over the sides" a bit ... but you want that overflow amount to be small rather than large. It's hard to achieve that *net* balance if all that can happen is addition with next to no subtraction (because people hate subtractions).

Insatiable wrote:

players can repair their items and would not have to buy new items. They just repair them.

Depends on the form that "repair" takes ... and yes, this is a Devil In The Details difference.

If you're talking about just going to an NPC and forking over IGC to hear a hammer into anvil sound effect indicating everything has been instantly repaired, you're absolutely right.

If you're talking about "repairing" stuff by REPLACING it with a duplicate copy, that creates supply and demand and logistical issues that are not the same as just forking over IGC for a single button click. It means that "common" stuff could be relatively easy to replace (just use common drops?) while rarer/more specialized stuff could be more involved. So you wind up with a situation where there are competing pressures between min/max desires and convenience ... such that maximum performance dictates a sacrifice of convenience (in some form or fashion), with the highest maximums being the most inconvenient to SUSTAIN.

That difference in dynamics does not strike me as being in any way, shape or form "the same" as each other. The difference is the design of the convenience vs inconvenience continuum.

Needless to say, there's a big push in favor of maximum convenience with NO INCONVENIENCE of any kind, anywhere, for any reason. Which is great(!) for the individual Player, but not necessarily good for the health and longevity of the game as a whole.

Insatiable wrote:

If crafting becomes a central theme of the game as it can be with so many other MMOs, it will still come down to if the best "gear" comes from crafters or game play (in my experience it is rarely crafters) so you are still driven to perfecting your build through game play. So you end up with the same point of whether you have higher supply than demand.

Just to clarify my personal preference ... I'd prefer it if ALL of the usable Augments and Refinements in City of Titans were crafted by Players. In other words, there are no TO/DO/SO/HO "drops" of any kind anywhere at any time. The only "stuff" out there to be had is something that someONE made and put up for sale (or that you make for yourself).

So instead of Crafting competing with Drops ... instead you've got a situation in which Drops are "consumed" by Crafting to make usable stuff, but Drops aren't immediately usable. In other words, what Drops needs to be "refined" into something usable via the Crafting system, and the Crafting System converts those Drops into stuff that is ready for use.

Insatiable wrote:

My point was about CoH's simplicity of economy - it worked well for new or veteran players and yet it did not need item degradation or a crafting community to be successful.

That's because City of Heroes had a legacy system of TO/DO/SO/HO that couldn't be Crafted as its foundation. Crafting was overlaid ON TOP OF that system.

And the TO/DO/SO/HO system DID have degradation built into it (of a sort). [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancements#Enhancement_Aspects_and_Schedules]See here[/url] for proof. The difference was that the Enhancements had Levels associated with them and were thus "fixed" while their yield varied depending on the difference between the Level of the Enhancement and your character's Level. This resulted in the "5 Level Turnover" rule of needing to buy replacements for everything every 5 Levels ... which worked FINE (and was surprisingly close to being balanced, all things considered).

The problem was that the system broke down at the Level Cap. Once you stopped needing to replace "old" Enhancements, because you'd reached the Level Cap, they were good "forever" and from that point onwards, cash flow in terms of INF was only positive (and wildly so, even when paying off Debt), never break even or negative. This resulted in a case of "the Level Capped get richer" while everyone else treads water (or slowly drowns), creating a hyperinflation condition at the Level Cap. Why? Because a major sink for INF dried up and no longer applied at the Level Cap (plus all the other things that made being at the Level Cap so ridiculously lucrative).

The Invention System in effect DOUBLED DOWN on this dynamic by making it such that you could free yourself from needing to replace all your Enhancements every 5 Levels [b][i]before reaching the Level Cap[/i][/b]. I know that in my case I was using Inventions for EVERYTHING as early as Level 24 (so as to slot Level 27 IOs). That meant I could skip over the "every 5 Levels" reslot operation for Level 30, 35, 40, 45 and 50 SO Enhancements. Add up how many Enhancements that meant I didn't have to buy (and re-buy) and you're easily looking at some 300-400 Enhancement purchases I could forgo (I don't know the exact number). In other words, easily a majority of the Enhancement replacements I'd needed to do when buying SOs simply didn't have to happen with IOs for over HALF of my career as a Super (the most lucrative half, I'd point out).

Insatiable wrote:

There was also fitting this into the genre of the game - are we saying that super heroes abilities degrade through use? That as I get shot by bullets over time (not about health points or endurance in the moment) but just playing a character over a long period of time that my fireball or whatever it may be is less and less effective through "wear and tear"? I have a hard time wrapping my head around that.

If you're talking about having X number of "charges" to use your Powers, then no. It's not like Powers had ammo counters on them (let alone a "change clips" emote to foster that idea). What you're talking about is some kind of "swing counter" that measures usage of specific Powers. That becomes a huge bookkeeping nightmare in a hurry. No thank you.

A simpler way to run something like that would be Hours Of Play. If something can be used for 10 hours on online play, regardless of what you're doing with it during that time, then that's how long it will last. The simplest formula for that would be something like this:

{Constant) + Level = Hours of Play duration

Set the Constant to be something like, say ... 10 ... and a Level 1 "thingummy" would last for 11 hours of gameplay, while a Level 50 "thingummy" would last for 60 hours of gameplay.

Now, if you're like me, you'd have a hard time believing anyone could play for 11 hours and NOT get to a higher level in time to replace the "thingummy" in time before it broke and removed itself from a Slot. And there are all kinds of UI tricks you can do to show how much Duration Remaining on a whole host of stuff you've got Slotted before it'll break. How do you reset the Duration Timer? Either go to an NPC and pay IGC to do so (insert hammer into anvil sound effect) or you simply replace with new (thus trashing the old). My personal preference would be for the latter option ... requiring replacement ... which, incidentally, models (broadly) the "every 5 Levels" rollover to new behavior but isn't one that halts when reaching the Level Cap.

Insatiable wrote:

I suppose there could be something to saying that whatever this enhancement is, it is some real object that wears out.

It doesn't just apply to bullets and spells, it also applies to abstract things like "training" and "readiness" and so on. Think about great musicians. They practice ... A LOT. So do martial artists. Even masters of martial arts continue to do exercises and training [i]to maintain their skills[/i] after having learned them. It's not a "one and done" process where once you've learned something you can sit on your laurels forever afterwards. Fitness has to be maintained, you can't just take it for granted.

Now, it's HARD to model that kind of need in a game ... let alone a superhero game. But the closest you can come to it is IMPERMANENCE, such that your "stuff" doesn't intrinsically last forever and not need to be refreshed or kept "current" in some form or fashion. The Build Plan can be a "permanent" thing, such that what gets slotted where can be a permanent design ... but the individual bits and pieces that go into that Plan shouldn't be "eternal" in their own right. If the "stuff" isn't permanent, then you avoid creating a problem of permanent self-sustainability at the Level Cap simply because nothing ever "ages out" from your build.

But if stuff DOES "age out" and need to be replaced (albeit, slowly) then you preserve the dynamic of Creation+Destruction even at the Level Cap. That generates a "permanent" Demand force in the game's economy, which helps sink out a portion of the Supply being generated that would otherwise have nowhere else to go (other than creating inflation) at the Level Cap.

Insatiable wrote:

But to feed a "buy new" crafting economy, we would have to say that players could not repair their items (which I have yet to see in any game and would likely make your community of players have fits). Or, would players be driven to other players to repair items as well (to force-feed a crafting-driven economy)?

Both are good questions.

My personal preference is for a "buy new" with a long degrade countdown timer measured in hours (11-60 hours for Levels 1 to 50 items, for example). Likewise, my personal preference would be that the only available items to fill that need would come from the Players themselves, as opposed to being something purchased from Vendor NPCs who can supply infinite quantities of stock. Given the way your question is phrased, that would essentially "force feed a crafting-driven economy" as you put it.

Take that notion and then compound it with the idea that not all characters can Craft all items [i]as efficiently[/i] as every other character in the game and you've got the foundations for an in-game Crafting economy that is dependent upon Drops (for Crafting materials) but which isn't in direct competition with Drops for usable items (Augments/Refinements slotted into Powers) in which "specialists" have advantages of efficiency in Crafting what they know best according to their Build specs. Radical idea ... I know.

Fortunately for everyone here, these kinds of decisions are not up to me to arbitrate and MWM has already stated they don't want to go in the direction I'm suggesting here.

Insatiable wrote:

How many mechanisms would need to be driven into a game, artificially, to force the economy to crafters?

Depends on how its structured. For some structures, it would require a lot ... for others, not so many. It depends on how you build it and design it work as a developer.

Insatiable wrote:

I don't think City of Heroes needed this (or would in any way have benefited from it) and don't really think it's central to the genre as it is with various other games.

City of Heroes STARTED with a different model ... one that "ignored" the question of an in-game economy. By the time a Market was created for the game, hyperinflation had already taken root and was functionally impossible to get rid of. So City of Heroes was in a "sunk cost" scenario where it was too late to change course. City of Titans is not yet at this point (or if it is, no one's mentioned it forcefully enough yet).

Insatiable wrote:

Also, in those other games - adventuring tends to rule the roost regardless and crafting becomes a side job to make money.

I honestly believe that TERA manages to make Crafting the worst of all worlds while Leveling (it's a straight IGC loser to a shockingly dramatic degree) that only becomes "worth the effort" when you've reached the Level Cap. Try and keep your Crafting Skills "current" as you Level Up and you'll only impoverish yourself to the point of being gimped. But then, TERA is a Korean Grindfest ... so that's only to be expected.

Elder Scrolls Online does a better job of it, but even then it's still pretty hard to balance Drops vs Crafting. This is why I personally think that a better model for City of Titans would be to confine use of Drops to being "fuel" for Crafting, thus turning Crafting into a "refining" process for the "raw" materials you get from Drops. It also would mean that anything your character can Slot or Use (such as Temp Powers, for example) got MADE at some point via a Crafting Process as a deliberate choice by a Player ... as opposed to being something you could just "buy" from an NPC Vendor. Such a Crafting model would be consistent with the fact that Stars (ie. cash shop currency) only get generated because some Player (somewhere) gave real money to MWM.

Tannim222 wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Now, if you're like me, you'd have a hard time believing anyone could play for 11 hours and NOT get to a higher level in time to replace the "thingummy" in time before it broke
.
It happens. I've been in games where I've spent my entire gaming sessions literally rp'ing with people. There are plenty of people who will not enjoy the fact that simply logging into the game diminishes the effectivenessof their character.

Not trying to trick you or "gotcha" you or anything Tannim, but the specifics around the example I'm citing would be for a Level 1 character using Level 1 Augments/Refinements. I understand that there are people who will RP for hours on end. Heck, I once had a 4 hour discussion, in-game, with a friend about how Defense works after they were impressed with my MA/SR build for Redlynne (and the power of [b]NO GET HITSU!![/b]). So I *get* the idea that people would object to "paying for 'not' playing" the game in terms of Durability Loss Over Time simply due to being logged in.

But you also have to look at the specifics.

Level 1 character with Level 1 Augments/Refinements ... 11 hours of playtime duration after being slotted.
Level 10 character with Level 10 Augments/Refinements ... 20 hours of playtime duration after being slotted.
Level 20 character with Level 20 Augments/Refinements ... 30 hours of playtime duration after being slotted.
Level 30 character with Level 30 Augments/Refinements ... 40 hours of playtime duration after being slotted.

I don't doubt that there will be Players out there who will log in and spend 40 hours RPing (or whatever) when they're Level 30. They will exist. The real question is ... will there be [b]enough of them[/b] as a slice of the game population to merit catering to up to a point where serving this minority slice of the Player population merits dictating whether or not a sink for in-game resources has merit.

In other words, put into percentage points how much of the population you'd assume will "cross the red line" due to not engaging in in-game resource generating activities at a rate necessary to sustain the builds of their character(s) while logged in.

My assumption is that less than 1 in 1000 Players (ie. less than 0.1%) will engage in such behavior to an extent that the log in time elapsed becomes an issue for the "integrity" of sustaining their build. Yes, it COULD happen, especially if people ignore Warning Notices and so on ... but I don't assume that just because an edge case is possible that [i]this particular edge case[/i] disqualifies the entire point and purpose. In other words, there ought to be a limit to how much Players need to be protected from themselves. I prefer to think that Players are perfectly capable of being responsible for maintaining their characters ... and that doing so would be "easier" in a game that features an economy with a constantly churning low level of Demand built into it.

And then, let's look at the counter-factual case. Suppose there's an "extreme" RPer out there who NEVER takes their character out for adventures, and thus isn't "earning" anything. All the character does is engage in RP and social activities ... never in "playing the game" as a game. Effectively, the character is a PC "Civilian" because they never engage NPCs in "super" ways. What happens to them under the scheme I've outlined?

Well, for one thing, such a (hypothetical) character wouldn't earn XP ... meaning they never go beyond Level 1.
How important is having a Build for such a character? Not at all. The character is defined by their costume and social activities, not their game mechanics.
How important is maintenance of the Augments/Refinements that they've slotted into their Power(s)? Not at all. They aren't using their Powers, so they don't need Augments/Refinements to put into them.
In other words ... it would be perfectly possible to create a character for "pure" RP purposes who could engage in Paragon Chat style activities "forever" and not have to pony up a single IGC to pay for it.

Yes, that's taking an extremist viewpoint to illustrate the consequences, but again ... if you're THAT HARDCORE of a RPer, that would be the logical consequences of choosing to play in that manner. That's the ... shape ... of what would happen. It's hard to feel the loss of something you aren't making use of anyway to begin with.

This is one of those things where the only people who are going to be interested in "maintaining" their Builds over time are going to be the 99.9% of Players who are actually "playing the game" [i]as a game[/i] and thus will be motivated to invest in maintaining their Builds by spending a portion of their in-game earnings of resources to do so.

Heck, let's even take this yet another step further and assume that someone has been an incredible RP Player who has spent over 100 hours logged in and never did anything to maintain their Build and all of their Augments/Refinements have expired and been deleted ... but now the Player wants to actually PLAY this character and use their Powers and join Teams and so on and so forth. What would they have to do in order to get back into Fighting Trim?

Well, they'd need to fill up their Build with all of the Augments/Refinements they can slot. How long would that take to do? That's a variable dependent on the Build, but there's no doubt in my mind that it could be done, given sufficient investment on the part of the Player to do so. That investment would no doubt involve the investment of TIME and in-game resources to "get up to speed" so as to become "fit for duty" as a (no longer gimped) Super again ... but it wouldn't be impossible (especially if the Player thought ahead and stockpiled resources for just such an eventuality someday).

And that's assuming that a group of RP friends wouldn't object to bringing along a "mendicant" RPer on a Team who hangs back and doesn't contribute to the battles.

So yes ... what you cite is an edge case. It's an edge case that not only COULD happen but I'm sure WOULD happen to a specific group of people. What I question is whether that specific group of people is large enough, and the requirements for the edge case to occur be prevalent enough, to merit of veto of the whole idea. Remember, the basic idea I'm advancing here is one in which Demand for resources in the game [b]never reaches zero[/b], which would promote a healthy "churn" of both Creation and Destruction within the game's economy. Cross couple that with the notion that although everyone CAN make "everything" Craftable within the game, that some characters can Craft [i]certain things more efficiently[/i], and that the demand levels for everything that gets Crafted will always stay above zero, and you've got the dynamics of an economy on your hands.

Who "loses" in such a system? The people who weren't generating resources to go into that game economy [i]while they're logged into the game[/i]. What types of people are those? Typically the Explorer and the RP/Social types of Players who aren't engaging in "beat 'em up" activities. How long do they have to decline to engage in such resource generating activities before they're "penalized" for doing so? A pretty darn long time. Long enough that the distinction is effectively Self Selecting.

Would it be incumbent upon the Developers to PREVENT Players from engaging in behavior that leads to this unfortunate occurrence? Not in my mind. WARN that such a "misfortune" will occur before it does, so as to give the Player plenty of advance notice so they can respond BEFORE stuff starts breaking because it has expired ... absolutely. But prevent the condition from ever occurring for anyone, anywhere? Why would you go that far?

If augments don't decay over time and aren't subject to degradation via a death tax then they are akin to the enhancements from CoH where leveling is the sink by requiring upgrades and thus the spending of currency (influence). If that's the case, and expendables are the primary sink, then it's unclear (due to lack of information, obviously) how this will stave off rampant inflation. As Redlynne and others have noted, once someone hits level cap they tend to accrue enormous amounts of currency if they're not having to periodically replace their enhancements/augments. Expendables are, by definition, more of a perk than a core feature of one's character. If they are otherwise, then the primaries are poorly designed since they are meant to define one's character. That begs the question how do expendables possibly account for enough demand investment to offset the rapid and massive accumulation of currency?

Even if bases, vehicles, costumes or some other perk are used as sinks, there will not be enough demand for them from a large enough cohort of players to mitigate the rapid accumulation of currency. This is becomes almost ironically perverse if the level cap proves no barrier to people enjoying the sheer delight of simply playing their toon, which i suspect is your goal as game makers. Again, this is all conjecture based on a paucity of information regarding development goals, but it's a rather important aspect of the game that most definitely impacts your customers' experience.

Unfortunately, the inflation would bleed through into other areas - base equipment, costume bits, etc. The sinks are necessary to mitigate that to a degree. There's really no way around in-game currency inflation unless you remove markets & crafting altogether or provide enough sinks to counter-balance it. Economics is a &*%^$ like that =)

Eve Online is probably the best example of a game maintaining a stable, healthy economy but their model isn't really an option for a game like CoT, or most games for that matter.

I never said expendanles are the only sink. I used them as an example of something players craft that can provide a useful, limited advantage which will act as a sink. Crafting anything will be a sink, selling on the open market will have a sink. We will plan plenty of other simks around what players can do, just not on their character's build. We plan to have npc marketeers working the market, accumulate currency, for both an "operating budget" and a "bank". Where the bank amount can be set to delete the currency, removing it from the economy. And we do plan to have standard augments have reduced effectiveness as a character out levels the augment level.

The other part of the equation is setting up a proper reward model for range of gains over time. Often the refernces of CoH, enhancements, and rampant inflation do not account for the fact that the game's reward model was never set up for a player economy. By the time an ecnonomy became part of the game, there was instant inflation because a large portion of the player base suddenly had large amounts of wealth, could easily accumulate it, and had little else to do with it. We won't have this problem outright becUse we will design the reward model witht an economy in mind and include an economy from the outset. And if you study games with item repair, what you will find is that most of the time, the repair rate is designed around a median gain rate over time, often with a slight curve upward the more a player is involved in combat if there are multiple spawns to pc ratio in the encounters. It of itself does not act as a sufficient sink (it is one tool yes), nor does it prevent players from accumulating wealth, driving up prices over time. The same results can be achieved by properly tuning reward rates over time.

I'm not saying item repair is a bad thing at all. If it fits the game setting, that is both in the type of game being made and the game world itself, it can be one of the useful to employ. It is not something however that always fits every game, even ones with players building characters with crafted and / or "found" items. CoT intends to be one such game. In fact, auugments and refinements even internally aren't defined as gear in the classic sense. We don't even use terms like equip or outfit. They are improvements and represent the character being improved. The player is free to determine what this means to themselves for their character.

Now I used the term "outright" because the reality is, inflation is inevitable. What is important is that we know this going in, and we design ways to keep it in check. There are plenty of things which will act as sinkscovered under the umbrella of "things players do" which have yet to be specified publically.

Redlynne wrote:

Izzy wrote:
If there was Cap on Purple IO's so that it was 1 Billion influence Max, people like me wouldn't be Hoarding every penny of influence across ever toon. :/
Price Caps are an ineffective method of containing (let alone countering) rampant inflation. They merely treat the symptom, not the cause of the malady. NOT recommended!

Hmmm... do you mean that players will try to directly trade Purple IO's for more than 1 Billion in influence by Email or having a Meet? And flood the global chat channels with LTS / LTB messages?

Do other games have Caps? or Had them?
How did they handle it?

Foradain wrote:

Even if players don't find a way around price caps, they only shift the symptom of the problem. Instead of "not available at a reasonable price", you have "not available at all unless you are lucky enough to check the auction house at just the right time".

Hehe... In that case id make an NPC Marketer Bot that offered a limited quantity of a particular Purple IO's / Recipes at a certain price on certain days. That would force players to try to Match the NPC bots prices to stay competitive. That would make sure trades STAYED primarily in the Auction house. :D

I know... This would stop Farmers from getting Rich as fast, slowing their progress. But I dont care! As long as n00bs have a fighting chance that just got bit by the Crafting bug and want to start participating, and they Can Now!

Tannim222 wrote:

It is a practically needlss negative reinforcemment system in a game where the by far majority of the game philosophy (heck even at the account level) is based upon a positive reinforcement philosophy.
And from much of what has come through to us insicates we will have a very healthy rp crowd. It doesn't matter if it is 1% of the popluation or not, once you create a system which causes a loss in performance for simply logging into the game you are discouraging the players who do log in for whatever reason to do anything other than what will provide for them to maintain their performance. It can result in creating barriers cor players who decide to rp for hours on end and then get involved in content.
I cannot stress enough how such an idea floes in the face of the very casual, ease of play, encouraging and providing cor a wide range of preferred types of players this game is intended to be.

Speaking as a very casual player, I agree - having a degradation over time mechanic would drive me absolutely nuts knowing that clock was ticking away as I was talking to people, doing chores (selling, crafting, base-building etc), or even simply travelling to the next mission.

It would be a min-maxers dream though - always striving for hyper-efficiency in "Cash per Minute".

Good to hear you have plans for cash sinks throughout the game to deal with (or at least moderate) the level 50 billionaire problem. Looking forward to more info.

Redlynne wrote:

In City of Heroes, as in a lot of MMORPGs ... when you hit the Level Cap, you just simply stop earning XP. You earn the 1 XP that puts you onto the Level Cap and then beyond that point your XP gains are either "wasted" or converted into some other resource (usually IGC, so as to create additional gratuitous inflationary pressures).

So what if that assumption about the Level Cap wasn't operative? What if the "range" of the Level Cap wasn't just 1 XP wide? What if the "range" of the Level Cap was actually the full range of an entire XP Bar?

Well, okay ... I hear you thinking ... that's, fine, but how is that useful?

Simple. When the Level Capped XP Bar completely fills, it "laps" so as to empty (just like a normal Level Up) except that a +1 Level is not earned (no going from 30 to 31, for example, when 30 is the Level Cap). But as far as your Augments/Refinements are concerned, the EFFECT on them is the same as having gained +1 Level ... even though your character Level is Capped and therefore not advancing. This would mean that the "replace every 5 Levels" rule would continue to be in effect even at the Level Cap.

Simplest way I can think of to implement this would be that when "lapping" a Level at the Level Cap, a -1 Level modifier gets applied to all Augments/Refinements slotted into the build ... yielding the same net result as keeping the Augments/Refinements unchanged but the character Level being incremented up by +1.

Downsides to this method? Well, for one, once reaching the Level Cap it would be necessary to disable the No XP Gain option (for what I should hope would be inherently obvious reasons). Additionally, use of Debt mechanics to slow XP Gain (and thus slow degradation) at the Level Cap might be perceived as perversely advantageous (at least in the short term, long term perhaps not so much).

Point being, you don't want the Level Cap to become a "special case" where the behaviors and demands of the game prior to that point (ie. the sinks) stop being effective or relevant.

Hmm - something like this could work. If CoT Augments are going to degrade by level like CoH Enhancements, at the very least it will be internally consistent.

I don't think it will be possible or even desirable to completely stop max-level character from accumulating "wealth". I really don't want max level (or any level) to be a zero-sum game - accumulation leads to a sense of advancement and progress after all, but there needs to be a big bite taken out of max level characters one way or the other.

Redlynne wrote:

The only way an NPC Marketeer can successfully "do their job" of deflating the economy is to Buy Low and Sell High. That then transfers resources to the NPC Marketeer, which when accumulated in sufficient quantity can be deleted/disposed of to prevent those resources (mainly IGC, I'm guessing) from returning to circulation.

Deflating sounds kinda accurate. ;D
I'm no math genius, but that sounds like it would drive every player in the Red, further in Debt! :/
I doubt using the `Keep em In Debt` approach is much better than the `Gravitate To` approach. :<

But, you can't borrow money/influence/IGC... so, players will just refrain from playing the market as much. Is that ok?
it's just a feeling, I've got no experience there.