Maybe I've missed it, but I have yet to see a place that really explains the lore of the game. A few groups have been mentioned in passing, and there's very general things written about the city and its world. But where is the place to find the actual backstory? CoH had a section on its site to explain the history, from Statesman gaining his powers, to WWII's events, to the rise of Superadine, and the Rikti War. It also had individual enemy group pages. I realize that some of this is probably still being worked out, but for me it's the most interesting part of world building. Where can I find more detailed information than "this is a city filled with superheroes"?
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I think they are planning on releasing lore information over the next month via updates to the Kickstarter. There's already one update that is talking about some of the districts of the city and their histories.
Yes, we are still working on ironing out the lore.
Yes, we are planning on releasing *some* information through the kickstarter updates.
We can't give you any more than that at the moment, because much of it is still in a relative state of flux, while we beat the kinks out.
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Wish I wasn't so late to the game. Would have been awesome to have applied to help create lore for the game.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
It's not too late at all...
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"What you say is rather profound, and probably erroneous." - Joseph Conrad
“The universe is made up of stories, not of atoms” - Muriel Rukeyser
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
There's quite a few people that are expressing interest in joining the assorted teams. I think that there's a thread somewhere for volunteering. I also think that there may have been something said about emailing contact@missingworldsmedia.com.
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
That would be really cool to be able to be apart of it. Never had any previous experience with writing for games but I do love to write. What do I do though in the email. Just say "hi i'd like to volunteer with writing lore and stories for the City of Titans"?
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
Indeed. Just say what department you'd like to volunteer for (in this case it would be Composition), and they will forward it to the appropriate people. We've been a bit busy lately, as I'm sure you can imagine, but someone will get back to you when they can; they will be the one to tell you what further steps need to be taken to get on the team (I don't have any authority on that part).
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I imagine the KS has everyone on the design team in quite a stir right now. There's releases, updates, plans for stretch goals as the money goes up etc. I'm sure after the KS is closed things will settle in some.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Drats. I had sent it in earlier just saying was interested in helping with writing lore and such. Didn't know to put composition team. -.- well hopefully someone will read it or notice the email.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
Lore is OK, too. Lore is covered under the general umbrella term of Composition.
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I couldn't help but notice that Heroes and Villains has an entire forum section dedicated to lore, with multiple sub-forums (http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/viewforum.php?f=22). As of right now, the Kickstarter updates are the only place to really read about the lore of this game. Is that going to change?
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Yes, that will change.
However, one of the things we learned during the Kickstarter is that a lot of our fans want to learn about the lore by experiencing it, so expect us to hold back a lot of stuff for the game itself.
That said, keep an eye out for a certain Cabbie in the weeks to come. He knows a lot about the streets of this City, and he can help you get up to speed.
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Experiencing the lore in game is one of the things that made CoH great, but the CoH website also had VERY extensive backstory articles. Not only major events of the 20th century, but also info blurbs about various enemy groups and notable NPCs. I thoroughly enjoyed that part of the website.
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My personal perspective:
what is publicly known in the world, should be publicly known in the 'lore section' outside the game.
in the real world, we all know 'about' al qaeda, about the bloods and crips, about blackwater and watergate and bernie madoff...
what we don't know, necessarily, is what corner the bloods hang out on, or that blackwater is being hired by companies here at home, or that watergate was a plot by shapeshifting aliens....or that bernie madoff worked for cthulu....
if that makes sense.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
So, we'd like those parts of game-world Lore that cover History and Entertainment, Geography and basic Cartography, Physics and Mechanics, and basic stuff that 'everybody' knows to be available for absorption and 'coffee-arguments' in a Wiki for 'everyone' to enjoy. Meanwhile, the surprising facts about local birds and other, deeper, secret details can await discovery, collection, and dissemination after release.
Is that what we're talking about?
Be Well!
Fireheart
that's pretty much where *I'm* going with the discussion....
I don't think that "there's a university in Northeastern that has a huge rivalry with MIT" is privileged information that is "exciting to discover"..... I think that too often, normal information that anyone who had an interest (i.e. read a "lore" section on a website) would know is made into privileged information that must be uncovered through exploration and "rewarded."
Information that is Private, Secret, or Unknown is the only information that should not be readily available in published lore if one wishes to look.
Likewise, such a source of lore should be convenient to access and utalize with intuitive and functional structuring (that is to say, it is one thing to give the community "teasers" at this early stage with elements like the Cabbie.... but it should not be left up to community members to dig through such elements and post them in long threads, long term.)
worlds have inherent knowledge, and denying us that knowledge hinders our ability to interact credibly with the game (i.e. if we don't know that Countess Crey is a cut-throat business woman, it becomes difficult to find her actions credible.... and further, if she has a quest arch that makes her act "deceptively" good, we lack the necessary context to doubt her motives or be legitimately deceived.)
if WE choose to be ignorant of that knowledge (skip the lore) then that's our own lack of engagement....... it should be mitigated as much as possible by convenience (i.e. making sure the lore section is easy to navigate and structured in a way that allows players to explore the lore they are interested in, as they deem it important) but such "basic, universal knowledge" should be its own reward.... not a resource exploited for exploration badges.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
/em says something unladylike
Now I want a [b]S[/b]outhern [b]M[/b]assachusetts [b]I[/b]nstitute of [b]T[/b]echnology and [b]E[/b]ngineering university in Titan City so that I can have a character legitimately claim that they are [i]smitten with schoolwork[/i] handed out by professors who [b]SMITE[/b] their students.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Bear in mind that the lore parts of the CoH site only covered the villain groups you faced in the first 20 or so levels. Skulls, Hellions, Lost, Circle of Thorns, Rikti, maybe a little on the Sky Raiders and Devouring Earth... nothing about the Carnival or Malta.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
and that always sort of bothered me. I never felt as connected with the later zones, they were just "city", they lost character and identity as you leveled up and out of the early zones.
I just can't believe they let "NERD" get through quality control.... it's so damned Cheeky..... Like, no way in hell would a legitimate facility be called "Nerd". just so...ugh.
anywho...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
How about a Titan Institute of Technology with a nice, large dome on the library that carries the nickname 'nipple of knowledge'?
/It ain't worse than the erstwhile College of Notre Dame of Maryland.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
ROFLMAO
That reminds me of something from way back in 1989, when I went to the University of North Texas.
See, just a year or two prior, the school was known as North Texas State University (the dorm dining hall lunch trays still read "NTSU" while I was there). But that wasn't prestigious enough, so the regents renamed it. (They also managed to move our football team into Division IA, so we generally lost all our games, but I digress.)
Well, the student radio station's call sign was KNTU. (The prefix letter "K" is required for stations west of the Mississippi River.) The regents initially ordered the call sign changed to match the new university acronym, but the station management wisely refused.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Radio K-O-C-C.... all suck, all the time
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
That may just be the earlier versions of the site. The most recent version had Malta (http://web.archive.org/web/20121025114431/http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/game_info/know_your_adversary/malta.php) amongst other groups. What's more interesting is that the zones section doesn't have all the zones for some reason.
What I'm really looking for is something more like this: [b]http://web.archive.org/web/20121014173555/http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/game_info/history/paragon_city_an_introduction.php[/b]
A timeline and an introduction to the history of Paragon City.
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Radio K-O-O-C...we're not ALL crazy...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
hah... i want that for each district... maybe each neighborhood :(
I may never read it all.... but if i want to find out what the deal is with Cowtown... it's comforting to know i could easily find it.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Microsoft's NERD Center: http://microsoftnewengland.com/About
New England Reptile Distributor: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/about.html
National Engineering Research and Development Centre (NERD): http://www.motr.gov.lk/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=180&Itemid=125&lang=en
The 'NERD' in CoT is not a facility, it's a generic description of a neighborhood.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I believe there must be a mistake. I tried to apply to the writing team months ago (back before the quote above was posted) and the reply I received stated that there was no more room.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
hah..... nerds are so nerdy :P
I stand by my sentiments, though... even if, clearly, reputable groups do let it happen.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43GChXc6RVY]Welp...[/url]
~~~~~
Twitter: [url=https://twitter.com/Franzseska]@Franzseska[/url] // Tumblr: [url=http://franatastic.tumblr.com/]Haus of Zapatera[/url]
So I didn't know where else to post my tiny idea for the composition team so I hope you'll see it HERE
God Lore:
Marvel uses a lot of Norse God Lore.. You can't say Odin Loki or Thor without thinking of Marvel Comics
DC uses a lot of Greek God Lore. Wonder Woman embodies so much in greek lore that its really hard to talk about Greek names without thinking of DC comics.
Champions uses a lot of Egyptian God Lore. If you've been to Vibora Bay you'll see a lot of Professor Ka
I would love to see City of Titans embrace and embody Roman God Lore. Jupeiter, Minerva, Juno, Neptune, Venus, Mars.. So much lore there to tap into and every time I see Anthem I see a badass Roman Goddess
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Patriotic themed costumed hero tied to Roman Gods? That would make her sound even more like Wonder Woman, who's a patriotic themed costumed hero tied to Greek Gods.
What would be more interesting if they went the christian route for demons/angels, chuthula or with some Asian mythology.
Much as I grasp the connection between superheroes and divinities in lore, I wish we could get away from that a bit. One of the things I liked about CoX early on was that I could enjoy a good cape and cowl crawl without all the fantasy/D&D/pseudo religious stuff in so many other MMOs. While I liked the game better as time went on in other respects, I actively disliked having every other new addition to lore being inextricably linked to some god/demon/angel. Did we suddenly run out of scientists/aliens/mutants?
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I'm not saying make it the MAIN lore. But only WHEN there is diety lore (which is a huge part of comics) I hope they don't try to avoid it. I hope they don't try to recreate Marvel, DC or even Champions..
We all know why games avoid modern deities because people are zealots about modern deities. This is a chance to really put the stamp on a popular lore that has no IP claim.
Roman Gods and Goddesses are amazing mythology. And depending on how creative you are you could come across something amazing. Like how the Norse gods in Marvel are actually aliens.. and the tree of life is actually a map of inhabitable planets.. I mean some ideas are just genius. Roman mythology has a great but unexplored lore. Its recognizable to layman and unique enough to a new IP.
I don't plan on using diety lore in my character BUT when creating a full comic book universe I hope the writers have a unique view of the full universe with a lot of variety. Many character concepts use mythology. This one is available, recognizable, and above all, INTERESTING.
Just one suggestion
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It's not the Roman's fault that their gods resemble the Greek. What religion hasn't been a derivative of another?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm not suggesting none. I don't really think its possible while remaining true to the genre.
And I am aware of the amount of, I guess ambiance is the best word, that tapping those mythologies can provide.
My parents insisted on what was once known as a classical education for me. So I have studied the mythologies of Greeks, Romans, Norsemen, Celts, Chaldeans, Egyptians, as well as some of the more obscure tales of eastern and New World origins. That is a lot of material.
But for my money it makes for sloppy story telling.
A mystery writer must explain WHY, and HOW his villain did what he did. A scifi writer must explain the technology, culture, and most likely the economy and politics of the universe his tales inhabit..
Throw a deity in the mix and all you must says is that it DID happen.
Its kind of like the dreaded "it was all a dream" or the persistent "alternate universe" tropes. They are woven in to every superhero/scifi/fantasy tale it seems. Arguably they are part of the genre. But every time I wish they could have come up with something more fulfilling and creative.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I can agree that direct lore is boring. It's one of my complaints about the new Wonder Woman.. but they are doing some great things with it. Why? Because they have to interpret what was once simple into todays complex world. Who is Venus and what motivations does she have in the modern world? Where did she come from.. is she an alien or ancient magic, etc? What does she do now that no one believes in her?
As with the Marvel/Norse mythology you see how they mix Norse magic and modern science as the same premise. The tree of life as actual inhabitable planets/realms in the actual universe.. genius. Explaining the importance of Earth and why it attracts so many aliens and so much diversity.. MORE genius.
It's not a copy and paste job I'm asking for. I just hope that in the Titans Universe has this kind of creativity when it comes to their mythological lore. Yes there are plenty of other mythologies but which are as recognizable and available without being offensive to modern religious practitioners? I mean.. I am kind of tied to my idea but would love to hear others.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Study enough of the old mythologies and you will see they form a large portion of the "familiar" in the world around us. Albeit separated by so much time that the feel of familiarity remains without the source itself being recognized.
To reiterate, I am not suggesting your toys be taken away. Simply that the mythologies comprise no more than say....oh I don't know, a quarter perhaps of the lore? With at least a reasonable expectation of some arcs/tfs/zones being totally free of it.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I don't disagree that one type of lore should not be overly present in the game.
Perhaps we are not disagreeing at all?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I think we essentially agree, I just want to make sure the counterpoint is presented.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Have we named the Magic woman on the "Heroes" side of the cover art?
I know there's a naming thread already but going along with my suggestion of Diety lore what if she was the Roman Goddess "Trivia"
"Trivia was the equivalent of the Greek goddess Hecate, the goddess of witchcraft, the three-way crossroads and the harvest moon.[2] She was an underworld Titan-goddess who assisted Jove in the Titanomachy and was therefore able to keep her powers. She was a friend of Ceres and helped her to find her daughter Proserpina. As a part of her role as an underworld goddess, she was known as the Queen of Ghosts. Although she helped Ceres to find her daughter, she was also known to steal young maidens to assist her in her powers. These women later became nymphs."
See she is already a Titan.
Also one of my Supergroup members is a Nymph who would love to have her origin represented with in-game lore.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'd be tentative about calling any of the characters on "the team" a God, personally... I know it's been done in the past... but in some respects it grounds the universe too strongly.
I'd much rather such a character be sort of like Raven... in the sense that she is part of a pantheon lore unique to the setting (using familiar terms like "demon", but not related to any particular mythology of the real world)
OR
Have her as a worshiper of "Trivia" (or Hecate, or Andromalius, or whatever).... sort of a Magic-slinging version of Wonder Woman (hailing from a land where the power of old mythologies still hold sway)
but isn't the LITERAL god, walking among us.
....I guess what I'm saying is.....leave the players room for doubt.
It's my personal belief that if ANY pantheon is depicted as "true".... the setting will end up having to go out of its way to justify all other pantheons, at some point.
better to keep the beliefs personal (either in terms of lore, or in terms of psychology) and allow "wiggle room"
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Technically she's a titan, not a god. She just survived the Titanomachy (war of the Titans) and kept her powers after the gods won.
If you're saying you don't want any deities walking among us then I respectfully disagree. While you find it restrictive I find it as a creative stepping stone. Roman god lore especially was created to merge all the other god lore of the regions under one flag. It is in my opinion the most robust and expandable version of god lore. How any deity is represented depends on the writing. For instance, the interpretation of Thor and the Norse Tree of Life into inhabitable alien planets was a stroke of genius. Deity lore is simply one building block of a robust lore. You can call them gods, titans, immortals, etc but how they interact with the world around them is the context that makes the lore interesting. I also would not like a DIRECT interpretation of the lore as represented by the Roman Empire but a nuanced interpretation is something I welcome entirely.
I'm sure there's some story already behind the "Magic looking woman". I've read all the magic lore in "The Order of the Arcane Sentinel" and think that whichever titan best represent them then the "goddess of magic" who is known for her 3 way crossroad (The Sword, The Padlock, and the Book perhaps?) merged into one. "Tri" is right there in her name.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
you DO realize that Titans are gods, right? in terms of Greek (Romanticized or not) mythology, the distinction between mankind and "godhood" is progeneration.
Gods were born of the earth (or the children of gods and other gods)
Men, like animals, were created by the gods.
this actually holds true in most western polytheistic religions. (re: Norse, Celtic, etc )
The Titans were the Gods before the Olympians came to power.
True, Titans were not Olympians, but BOTH were categories of Gods.
And my perspective is not "I do not want the trope of gods walking among us"
It is the realization that what is established in the lore, becomes FACT for the world.
i.e. if the magic woman IS the Titaness Trivia... then the Mythology of Rome also IS. And whether it's handwaved away as extradimensional beings or not... the fact remains.
That is what I want to avoid. I want to avoid cornering the game into a situation of either saying "This Mythology is TRUE (if skewed by perception and time)... but all others simply remain firmly held beliefs, unsubstantiated by the Facts of the setting..."
or force the developers to include, in the lore, the establishment of ALL mythologies as TRUE, on some level.
Its the "Well of the Furies" problem....
once you say that ALL super powers came from Tartarus..... you eliminate the possibility of an alternate explanation.
Once you say "The Goddess of Magic is True".... it imposes limitations on character design (for those who hope to fit in the lore)
Basically... you spoke of your guild mate who would love to have their backstory validated by in-game lore...
in validating her story in the lore... you would invalidate the backstories of others.
where as if you either
A) make stuff up
or
B) avoid explicitly stating the origin or cause of things (something IS... but no "because", from a "laws of the universe" perspective)
you allow for ANY backstory to fit in with the setting and the lore.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I generally do not agree with your assessment of "what is a god" because this is defined by context and story.
I do however want you to explain the highlighted text. There is neither causation nor supposition to form a direct link between stating one thing as existent and invalidating the existence of something else.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
We're discussing Mythology.
Separate from Legend, Mythology has a specific and concrete function. It defines the laws of the universe, and the origins of all things.
That is what Mythology is.
When you CONFIRM a particular mythology (laws of the universe/origins of all things) it forces all other (laws of the universe/origins of all things) to become superstision, folktale, or ignorance.
NOW, I am not talking about Naming a character "after" a mythical diety... imo, that's totally fine.
but when the Lore of the game says that Character X IS God Y from a particular Pantheon you validate that particular Mythology (this is EXACTLY what City of Heroes did) at the expense of all others.
You call the "extra-dimensional" conceit of Asgard in Marvel to be "inspired"... but the reality is, it did not begin that way. Such conventions were REQUIRED, and included after the fact as a means of JUSTIFYING how other mythos and dieties could exist in the same setting where the norse gods held sway.
I wish to avoid that necessary literary conceit by not establishing any particular mythos as "True" in the eyes of the setting.
And whether you agree with "what a god is" or not... it's how the Greeks viewed their gods, and how the Romans viewed their gods. It's not my "opinion" any more than any historian's studying what was left behind. Until new evidence to the contrary, it's not really up for debate or interpretation.
...you can fabricate anything you want, but you cannot claim that the real world bends to the whims of your personal expectations or desires.
It has nothing to do with context, or story.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
This discussion tempts me to write a small backstory of one of my characters :). Note it'd be a short story.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
You are claiming scientific defense for art. Art has no wrong answers.
By claiming that the existence of Trivia somehow negates the existence of any other character you are making a scientific claim. So I'm asking you to provide arguments to support your claim. I simply do not see any valid arguments.
How does Trivia's existence defacto negate the existence of other possibilities without context?
Artistically it is up to the writer to provide the paradigm of context. How does Thor exist in the same universe that Hulk does? Good literary (i.e. artistic) question. Context could have been explained infinite ways, none of them wrong. (By the way Asgard is not extra dimensional, it exists in the same dimension as Earth, just separated by space and time).
Writers take ideas and weave them together through context. It's what I'm asking the writers to do with the idea of Roman mythology. And the tapestry can look a plethora of ways and still be beautiful in the end result.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Would you also consider Captain America being frozen and brought to modernity as "conceit"? It wasn't apart of his original concept but it provided a context for the character to stay relevant. Without it we would still be reading stories about the 1940s
The entire DC Universe was reset (over many crisis) to try to provide a universal context. Editors needed to exist back at their inception (buying other franchises) so that this context could have been provided and they decided it was not important to them (until they were consistently outsold by the House of Ideas).
There's no literary (artistic) reason that two disparate ideas cannot fit together through context.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I don't think you know all that much about Art, Jay... it can most certainly go wrong.
and I'm not actually making a scientific claim, I'm making a logic claim.
In the context that gives the word Trivia meaning, she is THE goddess of magic.
you cannot have one without the other.
you must either accept that Trivia is "just a name" (a magical character of a certain power level who adopted or was born with a name that relates to Roman mythology, but not OF that mythology)
Or
You must make the claim that she IS the Goddess of Magic (which means that she comes from a collection of deities with powers over existence, whose actions and deeds are governed by the societal lag of the factual existence in the real world)
what you want, and what you are asking for are not actually the same thing.
What you are asking for is a focus on Roman (celtic-greek) lore in the setting, just as (to you) Marvel has a focus on Norse myth and DC has a focus on Grecian.
what you want is for in-game validation of Roman mythology. to use it as the crux of divine lore in the setting, with token gesture made to other mythologies as a means of "inclusion"
For myself....
I tire of settings hanging their hat on tired and well worn stories. The elements exist to create your own beings, separate from the lore of the real world. Using ancient cultures doesn't add any credibility to bad writing, and good writing doesn't need it.
It functions merely as a means of creating archetypal characters that require no explanation (Re: Wonder Woman, Thor, Loki, etc) but that only functions as such foundations exist in the public consciousness. When you divest your character from the main (What is Hestia's personality again?) when you chose mythic figures who have no identity in the modern zeitgeist.... that value is moot... and you are left with co-opting a PANTHEON.. a cultural identity as a framework for your whole setting, just to justify the inclusion of a concept that has no meaning to anyone but a specialist in the field.
Why have a Roman god, if you're claim is that Roman Gods aren't gods?
why call him Ares, if you're going to write about his life as a master winemaker? (baring irony or perversion of expectation)
you either use the source, or you don't... it's not art, it's abscondency.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Scientific truth is based on facts and logic.
Artistic truth is based on intent and opinion.
There is no wrong way to translate intent and opinion but there is only one way to form logic.
No matter how many times you restate your claim, it still requires well formed arguments to support the claim.
One major way you could help your position is by keeping your claims consistent. Either it's art (and thus the result is found in opinions) or it is science (and the result is universal and has proof).
If you claim is that lore creation is science (a claim i refute) the I am asking for the proof of universal concept.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
art truth is NOT based on intent or opinion.
ever.
I'm sorry, Jay, but you are wrong. artistic truth is capturing the human in the particular. it is about universality.
intent is 'showing the plight of the migrant worker'.... but that intent is irrelevent to a piece of art being 'true'.
likewise opinion doesn't matter. truth in art is universality, if it speaks to an audience on an emotional level, it has some element of truth, it's not up for judgement by the court of opinion...
this is not, as much as you want it to be, a discussion of art, or artistic integrity. this is a discussion about the functional merits of adopting a particular mythos as a core aesthetic of the setting and lore.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
It seems you are arguing pineapples while I am talking about oranges.
There is no wrong way to express oneself in art. The intent to express oneself is often seen as "beautiful".. I say Macy Gray is a great singer she uses vocals with the intention of using the music medium but her intent and my opinion are the only factors in what makes her art "work". There are many people who will tell me she makes "bad art" but that is their opinion.
Intent and Opinion.
if you are making the claim that literature (lore) is a science and not an art then you should be prepared to defend it as a science and give me cited examples of either supposition, causation or SOME version of the transitive property of why Trivia's inclusion in City of Titans negates the ability for other lore's existence.
Your claim that art need follow logic is fundamentally flawed.
A+A= 2A. This is science. There is a mathematic proof, peer reviewed proof and it is true whether A is on Earth or A is elsewhere in the galaxy or if A is a strictly imaginary quantity. Universal facts and logic.
Thor+616=Alien. This is not science, this is art. Thor+616 does not ALWAYS = (or in this case -> ) Alien. Writers could have expressed Thor in the 616 Universe (or the 199999 universe more accurately) any number of ways. He could have been, as you put forth, an inter-dimensional being. He could have been a time traveller from the future trying to fit in. He could have been one of the first "mutants". There are infinite ways that this intent could be expressed.. and all of them are valid. How it is received is all opinion.
I am more than willing to engage in this debate with you. I am simply asking you to choose a defensible position, provide your claims, and back your claims up with argument (like any other debate). Simply restating your claim without evidence is not the same as forming an argument.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
so, your supposition is that ART is completely devoid of science?
that there is no pattern or elements of balance inate in art?
notes of a song are not mathematical
elements of a landscape aren't placed with logical intent?
You refute my position on the basis that Art is some how immutable and irrefutable... unchallenged. and that is a WRONG assumption.
your example of music is a perfect example of this
you claim Macy Gray is a great singer.....
your "opponents" claim she does not make "good art"
those are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. she can make bad art and be a good singer.... she could also be a terrible singer and make great art.
your math is equally fallacious logic.
"A" is an undefined variable in your first equation
however, there is an implied definition to each term in your second equation.
"thor" doesn't mean anything, unless you define it
you intend "616" to mean something MORE than its numerical value... it is, in fact, a title... ANOTHER "variable"
"Alien" is equally undefined.
so, what your second equation actually looks like is:
X+Y=Z
and without further information, it cannot be proven if that equation is valid or not.
this disconnect between what you think, and what you say permeates this whole conversation.
I am not discussing the merits, or lack their off, of choosing to make one of the character's we've seen into a god.
I am merely stating that such a choice has logical and rational ramifications in the perspective of the audience. if your "art" is a graphic depiction of rape, you cannot expect to avoid reactions of disgust or revulsion... it is a native response in our society. the goal of ART is to understand those natural responses, and utilize them in such a way as to tap into what is universally human.
The choice to make a character into a god of an established pantheon has ramifications on the setting. Peroid. Its no different then having a character in your story called Professor Xavier, who's bald and in a wheelchair (apart from the lack of lawsuits ;P) you can make every attempt to justify your choice as "Art".... but it's irrelevent, because your AUDIENCE will just see Professor X, and everything he represents.
There is no escaping this "cultural lag", it's a facet of ALL literature, ALL art. It must be used, overcome, or avoided.
I re-iterate, that you do not really understand what you're talking about, even knowing that it's a confrontational stance to make. I don't mean you any insult, but you seem to believe that calling something Art means that it is impervious to critique, judgement, or deduction by an audience.
...and that simply isn't the case.
nothing IS, but what the audience believes IS.
the artist's intentions don't matter...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'm sorry, GhostHack, but I don't buy your "There Can Be Only One" answer. In our current reality, there are a thousand 'truths' all coexisting - if not completely politely. You're arguing for one explanation of the rules, but that does not match my reality. You're also presuming that whatever 'gods' exist must be, somehow, absolute.
In my personal mythology, each one of us projects a personal reality, it is 'truth'... for that person. Issues arise when people encounter others whose 'reality' is incompatible. And great things are possible when many people with compatible 'realities' work together.
I'm hoping that CoT will offer a flexible space where we can all share realities with little friction.
Be Well!
Fireheart
i'm arguing AGAINST any choice (reguarding the lore, by the devs) that could appear to define or otherwise imply to the playerbase that one set of rules is the right/valid one.
I WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with you fire, we are not on opposite side of this discussion.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
(though, to be fair, you're talking about your personal belief(s) about reality... which is technically not mythology)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Heh, but I _am_ a mythologist, historian, linguist, and philosopher. I'm just trying to explain how the world seems to work for me. I'm also willing to entertain a half-dozen beliefs at once, while considering them plausible. I mean, Some interpretations of the various Pantheist beliefs conclude that they were traveling aliens. I find that no less believable than that...
"...there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money!"
One of my favorite characters essentially has an 'all gods are one' perspective and adds that the gods once worked Through the priests and priestesses of the people, channeling power and intention and magic through mortal hands. There are people who would declare me anathema just for Suggesting such a thing.
But it makes a great story.
The idea that the Titaness Trivia is alive and well and working the next block over does not make anything else 'un-true'. It just means that there's a perfectly logical explanation that we've overlooked.
Be Well!
Fireheart
An interesting discussion on Lore, Mythology, and History.
I wouldn't presume to indicate how our future players shall assembly their creations. However, in formation of the world, or setting, we must be very careful. Establishment of Lore has a huge impact on the background and history of Titan City. The items created on this side Do become fact.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I am really trying to understand, but I do not understand your position GhostHack. This is precisely what I said. Art does not have a transitive property that shows direct correlation in the same way science does.
If I show you an image of Spanish Penitents you could very well misinterpret my intent because that visual imagery has been popularized by another artist (clothing design). But if I were an observer in the 4th Century (Or any century pre-dating America) looking at art of the Order of Pentients am I still forced to believe that the artist's intent is to depict racism?
Again there is no direct transitive property to "Prove" art. Only intent and interpretation (opinion).
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If you find me to be confrontational I hope you go look at the actual context of what i've written. I never claimed that "calling something Art means that it is impervious to critique, judgement, or deduction by an audience". Your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what I'm saying preclude me from actually arguing my case. In the words made famous by John Paul Jones "I have not yet begun to fight"
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Eh, I'd actually like to see a superhero mmorpg lay down some real lore and not this, oh look, we made it so you can squeeze in whatever mythology makes you happy.
I share your desire for originality, but am falling short of finding what makes incorporation of common mythologies not "real lore".
Outside of the obvious (Wonder Woman, Hela, Thor, Loki, Hercules, etc) I think you'll find many interpretations of common mythology in superhero characters where you wouldn't expect them (The Phoenix for example).
Surely you're not saying you want a game devoid of all mythology. So then the question becomes what should this mythology look like. Not "should it exist?".
Crowd Control Enthusiast
this is what I am driving at.
and, jay... you continue to mis-read me.you are not being confrontational.... I am (or was)
you are inititled to your perspective, even where i believe it is wrong. the argument goes no where, because you seem to refuse to acknowlege the validity of Terlin's caution (and mine) expressed in the quote above.... and until you can accept the possibility that what developers establish as 'true' for their setting shapes the perception of their setting, by their audience.... we CANT 'begin to fight'.
and, fire... if you are a historian and mythologist, you know the distinction between belief, legend, and mythology... and you shouldn't be using the term 'mythology' incorrectly.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
The Marvel 616 universe has Thor, Hercles, Phoenix, Morgan Le Fay, Dracula, .. countless different lore in one universe at one time all interacting. All of these different types of lore are "translated" via context to fit into one world.
I do not understand the concept that having one lore somehow negates the other lore's relevance. Please explain that to me.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Sometimes keeping the specifics of the origins and interaction between deities and man are best left unexplained in fiction. In the case of a game like CoT this rings true. We must bear in mind that simplicity in narrative and background can help to suspend disbelief. In other words: don't overthink it, relax and enjoy the story being told.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Whatchu talkin' about, Wilis?
Myth is "this is why the world is like this" and Legend is "my many-great grandpa's friend did this". Belief is "how you explain it to yourself". History is "this is what we think actually happened". None of them have a lock on objective reality.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Hmm.. City of Heroes had origins available at character creation (granted they never actually did anything). But in the context of story they help you interact with the world around you.
For instance I cant imagine a Marvel MMO where being a mutant does not come with the Marvel social interpretation of 1) being born that way from evolution and 2) being generally outcast from human society.
In Champions lore a mutant is someone mutated by radiation. Generally they are seen as "monsters" more than humans.
I want to know what makes a mutant in Titans Universe. I want story context.
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If you're saying you want to keep the "definition-less" lore that City of Heroes had where origins and affiliations have no context to the greater story.. i simply, respectfully disagree.
I want to know how vampires came to be in Titan City (and the Titans Universe as a whole). I want to know what makes a nymph. I want to know how the human population treats aliens. None of these need be uniform reactions but I do not want origins (Character origins nor NPC origins) to be devoid of meaning in City of Titans as they were in much of City of Heroes
Crowd Control Enthusiast
agreed... but mythology functions as truth. they are stories held as sacred and true by their adherants... as opposed to lore and legend which play at the dialectic of belief/disbelief to promote cultural beliefs and norms.
..so, setting a particular mythology in stone in the lore CAN present the setting with an issue of selectivity and exclusivity ("sure, you can make your Set-avatar character, but that's just your story... it doesn't actually fit in the lore of the game, we're romans here"...etc)
without some further writing to negate the mythology you've just established (oh, we call her a titan, but really she's just a super-powerful alien).... the mythology the gamelore establishes acquires an air of 'holyness'..
after all, to many players, gamelore IS 'sacred' and should be adhered to. as soon as you say 'this is true'... players will begin to lord that knowlege over the 'ignorant'
.....I would prefer to avoid that, as much as possible.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I am advocating for Titans Universe to put their "mark" on diety lore by being the first IP you think of when you think of Roman deity lore. In the same way that when you think superhero lore and say "Loki, Thor, or Hela" you immediately think of Marvel. When you think of "Zues, Hera, and Hippolyta" you immediately think DC.
When someone says "Jupiter, Mars, or Trivia" you have an opportunity to make you mark on this as Titans territory. The Romans also had more robust definitions of Phoenix lore (mostly due to more interaction with the Arab world than Greece after Alexander).
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If you reject the premise that "making your mark" on a lore's context is good for your IP then I understand your argument. Still disagree but at least understand it.
But saying there should be no solid lore is like saying there shouldn't be a Phoenix in the middle of the plaza.. It's there; it has a purpose; it has its own lore. This is not a defensible position to me because mythology and context WILL exist in the game.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I understand your desire, Jay.
now try to understand mine.
There is a HUGE difference between, just like in the real world, acknowledging the mythologies of past cultures (or ANYTHING about past cultures)..... and taking the stance that any one of them is Real/true.
DC took the stand to say that the greek gods were REAL (i.e. they held sway over the world at some point, and have receded, or made their presence less overt to modern senses)
Marvel took the stance that everything we've read about is based on a Truth our ancestors couldn't as accurately understand as we can now (aliens, extra-dimensional beings, super-technology, etc)
What you're suggesting is that we adopt one of those two models, just with Roman instead of Greek or Norse
What I'm suggesting, is that we adopt Neither. Leave the gods and monsters of cultures past AS myths and legends from those respective cultures. Leave it up to the PLAYER to decide what is, and what is not "true" in this setting.
I am not suggesting that we don't have "solid lore"... simply that we focus on OUR OWN lore. Those other mythologies already exist, in the world. Players can choose to be the son of Odin or Remis reborn, or Bast's chosen disciple of their own accord....
but as soon as the Established lore says "This line of thought is TRUE"... in the minds of the average player, alternatives become "less true".. and eventually someone is going to be telling you how your character is good and all, but doesn't really fit into City of Titans.
We aren't calling it City of Titans because we are literal titans from greek or roman mythology... but because we Embody that quality of "superness" (whether in our prowess or in our personalities)
we aren't calling it Phoenix Plaza because a literal mythical creature exists there..... but because, LIKE the legendary creature.... the city rose again from its own ashes, wise and powerful.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Ok, I see our fundamental difference.
I used to work with a non-profit that encouraged Elder Care facilities be LGBT Friendly. I live in San Francisco; many of these places would respond "We ARE LGBT friendly.. our residents should feel comfortable being out". There were a number of factors (including social attitudes of the 1950s-60s, lack of family support, lack of children, etc) of why LGBT seniors, even in San Francisco, were afraid to be open about their sexuality. We ran a number of surveys and census to come up with a way to challenge this social problem. After about 14 pilot programs over as many years they found that what was MOST effective was visibility. No amount of support groups, speaking engagements, etc would help these people live their lives openly, but as soon as we put a pride flag on the front desk Gays, Lesbians, Transexuals and allies came out hand over fist.
I take from that experience this simple lesson; if we want to encourage the many different concepts in City of Titans we can learn from this that visibility is important. Simply having a (contextually defined) goddess character will encourage players to play their own version of goddess characters. The same for mutants, vampires, metahumans, werecats, atlanteans, pixies.. and any number of concepts. If we want then in our Universe, it behooves us to make a place for them.
Your position, as I understand it is that by classifying them and giving them a place we restrict them to that space. I understand your argument, but I've seen it done, and done WELL in my opinion. I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence to "prove" what will better translate the many concepts of super-powered beings that exist in City of Titans. But I am glad we are now speaking the same language and have stated my preference to be for contextually defined classifications, if not for our players then at least for the NPCs.
I want to exist IN the Titans Universe. I have a concept and I am looking to make it fit into the Titans Universe. I'm not coming into this game with the expectation that I can make a "Marvel Universe Mutant" and have it directly translate as it would in the Marvel Universe. I know the appeal of it, but if you want to play in the Marvel Universe or the DC Universe or the Champions Universe or the World of Warcraft Universe.. (i could go on forever) there are games for that.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
that isn't what we're talking about here.
I do not wish to encourage or discourage any character type.
I simply wish to avoid a situation where the Game lore specifically "approves" of a particular mythology, while "denying by exclusion" others.... AND avoid forcing the content team to create a "token" character or lore segment for all the possible legendary/mythologic sources to make all feel welcome.
players will already make what they want to make.... the problem comes when what they want to make seems to contradict the lore in place.
the two solutions are:
to make "official lore" specific or particular enough that it only encompasses pertinent "new" information... while leaving the setting as a whole open to all real-world possibilities
or
to put every possible (a vast quantity so as to be indistinguishable from "all possible") real world source of character concept into the "official lore"
I find your suggestion requires the latter... which I also find cumbersome, impractical, and ultimately limiting (by defining what a "fairy" is and what the egyptian gods are and the saints are in relation to your setting... you prevent players from creating their own stories about such topics without "Defying the lore")
where as the former, keeping "official lore" exclusively to what is "different" about our version of the world, allows the community to create their own lore about gods and monsters and mythologies and religions... without any of it defying or denying the "Truth" established in the setting's lore.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Understood but disagreed with. Lore is there to be learned in my opinion. I don't go into Norrath and say "I am a tecnopath from the future who engineers mechanical computer minions.
Norrath does not have future techopath characters so there is no frame of reference of that in the lore. If one "shows up" they are "defying the lore". They still have a choice to be either apart of this virtual world or living behind a 4th wall. I tend not to roleplay with 4th wall characters because they, again, come with no frame or reference. I should say frame of reverence .. I revere and love lore.
Story is one of the things players ask for most and half the players I see don't even read mission text. Not saying they should but if they DID they would have a much stronger connection to the world in which they live. I say the same for reading science text in the real world. Why live in a world where you are indifferent to learn about it.
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Personal rant aside, the lore SHOULD be flexible and inclusive and visible in my opinion. I already see concepts of different deity lore and can't wait to see how they fit into Titans Universe. This is to me not a conversation of "should deity lore exist" as it is being framed currently. It WILL exist.
This is an opportunity to exemplify the deity lore of Titans Universe into something familiar and popular and take ownership of that familiar popular thing. Should they not take the opportunity I won't be overly disappointed but the idea that it should be disqualified in its existence enough is not a justification to me.
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Finally, if it is your intention to encourage people to play as diverse concepts. I have seen that visibility is the single most important factor to making this happen. So yes, this will require weaving a tapestry that includes many different types of thread. I think the composition team is up to the challenge.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
This is quite an interesting conversation, but I don't think the crux of the argument has really been clearly stated. It [u]seems to me[/u] that GhostHack doesn't want what he terms a "Well of the Furies problem" - i.e. the idea in CoH that all power came from the Well (which is untrue, but presented poorly, per the AMA: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA). I think it's really # 1 from below that GhostHack is trying to avoid, but either way, defining a set of ancient myths as "true" or even as "aliens" ends up limiting other things that can be done with that set of myths.
Anyways, the thing is, if you have, say, a bona fide Greek god present in game, you have to explain that god. There are a number of possibilities:
1. Greek mythology is all true (Earth / Gaia came from nothing, gave birth to Uranus, they had Titan babies, etc.) and therefore other creation myths are straight up false (e.g. the Hopi myth that Tawa created worlds prior to this one would not be correct). This limits other deities, because something like the Hindu Vishnu is not a god - he may be an alien or a super powered being, but because the Greek gods are the only gods that are truly gods, Vishnu has to be something else that is not a god (or a Greek god masquerading over in India). This also limits players' telling non-Greek stories, since a player character using the power of Vishnu can't be using the power of a god.
2. Greek mythology is true-ish, but is one interpretation of something that all mythologies have reasonably correct, or one aspect of the one true pantheon, that manifests in different parts of the world as the people there see fit (Zeus et al. in Greece, Ra et al. in Egypt, etc.). This is more freeing in general since it allows all gods to actually be gods, but still ends up making the lore of the game beholden to whatever the "one true" creation myth is. Maybe it's never explained, if it's not important to the storyline, but it also creates philosophical issues.
3. Greek gods are aliens or super heroes or something. Which means that other pantheons are the same, or that perhaps another pantheon is the "one true" set of gods. Either way, you get people who want to actually play as a "Descendent of the Gods" unhappy, since their gods aren't gods at all.
4. The "god" is not a bona fide Greek god at all! It was a hero pretending to be one, and it turns out that all mythology is just that - mythology. Super heroes only came into being in the [whenever the lore storyline starts] and anything else is a story made up by cave men.
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No signature yet!
my intention is not to encourage anything, but allow the possibility for anything (i said that explicitly, twice)
you opened up this last reply with a rant about the purpose of lore. and how players come into setting and "defy the lore"
this is the EXACT mentality i wish to minimize.
you say the lore is to be learned.... but when you co-opt real world lore.... and then CHANGE it (so as not to make it as important as it would be otherwise) you're not just making lore to be learned, you're setting up limitations on what is "approved" knowledge and what is not. It is not GOOD ENOUGH to know my roman mythology, because that isn't "true" in your setting.
I can't ignore it, because then I'm defying the lore
I can't adopt the real world version that I know and can readily find information on.... because then I'm defying the lore
Where as, if YOU just step back and don't include that stuff into the "required lore".... if it's up to the player...
if everything is permitted (which is the real lesson to take from Marvel's method of inclusion), then you should make your lore that "must be revered" as specific to your setting as possible, skipping everything that might be interpreted as having culture lore of its own.
I hope to crush the mentality that a time-traveling technopath doesn't belong
that an elf doesnt belong
that a godling or alien doesnt belong
that a ninja or ghost or cartoon character doesn't belong.
By establishing real world mythology as true, in the game lore, you begin tightening that noose, and begin telling players which concepts are "valid" and which are "in defiance of the lore"
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Alright, I support GhostHack's desire to avoid choking creativity by defining deep Lore. I actually don't need the game Lore to do that. I DO need the Lore to define What this building is, what the neighborhood is called and why, who lives here now, who used to live here and why Not now, and will the door explode if I touch it?
I have a couple of beloved CoH characters that I would like to revive in CoT. However, they each derive from plot devices that were in the CoH canon. Rather than imposing those characters' previous 'lore' on Titan City, I would like some ideas from CoT Lore that I can adapt to my characters. That way, they won't be vagrants from another reality, but properly 'native' to CoT.
For the purposes of these stories, I'd be happy to contribute ideas towards developing that CoT Lore.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Felderburg, there are countless more options than the ones you post for those with no shortage of imagination.
There will be some adjustment to fit in the lore or you can gladly keep the lore you have and be one of the 4th wallers. I have nothing against 4th wallers existence, i simply find them difficult to relate to personally.
The idea that we do not have the creativity to adjust our concepts to fit this new world and the lore that exists in it seems nihilistic. If we need a literary universe where we can take LITERAL interpretations of abstract characters then we have given up on the human imagination.
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Yes GhostHack, I now understand our fundamental difference.
There WILL be lore. There WILL be characters that do not exist in the lore. I simply hope for an inclusive lore where instead of avoiding known types of lore, we embrace them as cannon parts of the Titans Universe. The inclusion of one does not exclude the possibility of others.
I'm not talking about incorporating ONE type of lore, but ALL types of Lore. And minimally the types of lore that are prevalent in comic books. I do not advocate a "Well of the Furies problem" any more than I suppot DCUO's singular origin. There should be MANY origins REPRESENTED in the game, if nowhere else than in the NPCs.
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Are we saying there should be no werewolf NPCs? No Vampires? No Robots? No aliens?...
Then why is it different when it's a Roman deity. No one is saying ALL powers come from Roman gods, no one is saying Roman gods are more or less powerful than any other superhuman being in the game. (In fact the "gods" lose more often than they win in even their OWN lore).
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I AM advocating for more options (even if the devs don't embrace Roman deity lore). It seems the opposing argument is for "No options". The characters we meet all have no origin, not magic, not experiments, not evolution, not divinity.. just bland spiceless flavorless origins. This is unappealing to me.
IF the argument is "yes werewolves, yes robots, no deities" then please explain where you drew such an abstract line and why.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'd like the game to actually come out and say "Hey! This was the first vampire! This is the how and why!" Not say "We have vampires! Make your own story on it."
I'd like them to come out and say, yes or no, on if demons/angels heaven/hell exists.
Basically I'd like a bit more of a structured story setting to fit my character into, rather than a "We make up a few things, but leave it open to so much interpretation, because we're afraid some people may not play it then." (hint: they still will).
Need I remind you all that there are ways to leave "wiggle room" without chucking lore in the bin? Words and phrases like: supposedly, we assume, according to current finding, recent research implies, much of this remains a mystery, and so on. We can give a rough outline without nailing down the exacts. You forget: much of ancient history, mythology, and even modern science is based on the educated guess of the researchers. Certain theories in the real world change every day (not all, mind you) so it is easy enough to create a universe, multiverse, or even metaverse with plenty of wiggle room. If the writer doesn't Bogart the whole thing like DCUO did.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
DCUO's only failing was in the character creation and everyone was a creation of nanites. The rest of it was based and should stay based on their established universe.
My problem with this is that, as we've been arguing, any such 'this is how it is' risks offending everyone with a different opinion and also precludes those different ideas from existing in the game. I mean, if the Devs declare that all vampires are Sparkly...
Be Well!
Fireheart
Hypothetical: What if Vampirism are an ancient virus or bacteria from space and were represented in game as doing bio-damage. Does this somehow preclude the possibility that Character Y over there is (for some contextual reason) a psychic vampire? A sparkly vampire?
If someone wanted to create a Titans Vampire to their traditional vampire concept would it be easier? Harder? Are they then doomed to become 4th wallers? Can Dracula (or any non copy written character) not exist?
I am with Automatisch in the notion that with the smallest bit of imagination we can create a lore with plenty of wiggle room. That is the appeal i find in comic books.. they are our modern way to tell ANY lore with text and graphics turning the most boring tale into something graphic. Translating that into 1 and 0 can (and should) keep true to this any lore foundation.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
No it doesn't.
Because no matter the MMO being played, those who want to stray from an MMOs lore, will do so.
This is why I've been able to run into Vampire: The Masquerade theme groups in every MMO. This is why we see Jedi and Sith used in CO and in CoH, when no matter how much you want to say their world is open, is a property of someone else so not part of CO or CoT, and it gets used.
A structured story helps those who like to actually immerse themselves into a setting and not just go "Oh hey! Look! I can do this and this and this, and oh hey, I just invented a new continent my character came from."
This thread is quite interesting, I must say. All of these points of view are reasonable. It'd be pretty difficult to give lore loose enough to hold water in all backgrounds, but still be tight enough to stand up and be an actual spine for the story. That's the two viewpoints I'm seeing here, anyway. One wishes to allow creativity and not hinder the player from creating characters or backgrounds because of the lore, and the other wants enough structure to keep the plot afloat and provide a reasonable history for the game.
Am I somewhere in the right neighborhood, here?
Ares was the god of war in the Greek pantheon. If we wanted to say he still is the god of war in the dimension where the Greek pantheon actually existed then I see no trouble with that.
Mars was the Roman god of war. Edit above sentence accordingly.
And on and on and on. There is no reason for ONE mythology to be considered 'true' over any other in CoT except for the one created solely for the game. I can see some cool scenarios where Ares and Mars duke it out to prove which is better and Titan City gets caught in the middle.
It's perfectly workable to have a named NPC that claims to be the daughter of Ares in the same game as another NPC that claims to be the son of Mars. The existence of one doe not invalidate the existence of the other. If you think the players are not smart enough to figure this out then you aren't giving your players enough credit.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Comics... the issue for me...
is that establishing "Mars" as a canonical figure has consequences, in terms of how the lore is viewed by the playerbase.
EITHER, the development team is further required to canonize "Ares" in the lore (or some other greek) and canonize someone from arthurian lore and japanese lore and chinese lore and hindi lore etc, etc, et al...
OR
The setting will seem to say that Roman gods are "in lore" and other mythologies are (in Jay's terms) "4th wallers"
For me, the first option minimizes the value of unique/new lore (i.e. story created specifically for Titans, unique from the lore of the real world) as well as creating a vast amount of additional restrictions on the developers (they are compelled to include a scattershot of real world mythology, to make sure the game isn't percieved as "exclusively roman") and for players (to be "in keeping with the lore" suddenly your "Son of Mars" character must be an alien from the Imperium, cause that's what the lore of Mars is, in the game)
and the alternative is the exact problem I expressed earlier...
It's not that players "cant" or "wont" create their characters however they see fit..... it's the idea that, in doing so, they're being forced "out of the lore" because there is no room for their story in the setting as it's defined.
Alpha-
I definitely think you've touched on one aspect of the discussion.... however... having a structured lore is NOT related to "what elements are included in that structure"
The discussion between Jay and I is discussing the merits of focusing the lore on a particular real world mythology.
Brand X wants to be sure that the lore is substantial enough that it CAN be adhered to.... and perhaps is concerned that limiting the inclusion of real world mythology into the canonical lore would make the lore too insubstantial.
the reality is... the Lore is as concrete and specific as the content team choose to write it. and the more they write, the more there is to learn and adopt.
and that fact is entirely separate from the realizing of a real world mythology as "fact" or "true" within the setting.
My contention is that the content team should focus all the game's lore on the elements of the game which are Unique from the Real world (what is Titan City's deal, who are its friends, its foes... what threatens the City that players wouldn't know about, without lore to enlighten them?)
and allow players to build onto that foundation with their own character's stories, without risk of becoming "4th wallers" (i.e. ignorant or defiant.... "lesser" gamers)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I personally don't mind how structured a game's backstory is or not because I tend to be one of those people who'll create unique character concepts to suit MY needs regardless of any strict MMO lore. At best I'll use a game's lore as a character development guide, cherry picking key details as desired without feeling compelled to stick 100% to the "letter of the law" established by the game.
Having said all that I still feel it's beneficial for a game to have as much background lore "fleshed out" as possible. I know some people really love to get involved with all the details and love to fully integrate their characters into the game's story. But I also know (as Brand X said) some people will stray from the storyline regardless of the Devs' desires or intentions on the matter.
Bottomline I simply don't worry about holding myself (or anyone else) to a strict adherence to a game's lore because everyone's going to have their own opinion about how important it is to them or not. If you consider it very important you can always find other people to play with who share the same point of view.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I see, I see.
Lore focused on the CoT world's aspects could work, but there wouldn't be a mythological influence. But that's what you're getting at.
It'd be difficult, though. The lore could actually be built as the game development progressed, after launch, too. Like, considering in-game events canon or something. Just spitting out rough ideas here. :)
I still think it's possible for the lore to cover visible reality and local history, without establishing the 'physics' of how gods and magic and mutations and super-science actually 'works'. Champions doesn't seem to have any such overwhelming Lore.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I just take this one step further - if a game attempts to "pigeonhole" something I don't agree with it's usually easy enough to ignore and/or gloss over those details and rationalize my own 'physics' regardless.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
....if you look at champ's lore, Fire...
none of the principle cast are "gods" or directly related to anything "mythic" in the real world
they're aliens from made up planets or witches from made up covens, or worshipers of made up gods...
the closest they come to making any sort of mythological statement, is with Therakiel and Kigatilik
and of the two, only Kigatilik is "real"
the rest of the game lore is completely divested from "real world" metaphysics or mythology... and makes no claims as to the validity of such things.... Leaving it entirely up to the player to say "My character's a God" (which might get an eyeroll or a chortle... but isn't technically "breaking canon" because Champs neither confirms, nor denies the existence of such beings... and at best says "weird stuff happens all the time... so why not?")
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
This is a misnomer. No one is asking for exclusively anything.
Therakiel is a version of adapted deity lore in Champions. Champions ACTUAL lore (not Champions Online) likely has much more. As rich as the actual Champions Universe is in lore using Champions Online as a standard is a very low bar. The game represents the lore very poorly.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
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