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Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
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thanks for taking that out of even the barest context:
the full (enough) quote:
Two things of note, that you seem to have ignored.
first, is the word "perceived"
this discussion is not about what is DESIRED by you, in making your suggestion... it is the CONSEQUENCE of that choice, if the devs are to make it.
if only roman lore is represented as canon in the lore, then the PERCEPTION of the game world is that ONLY roman lore is canon.
even if that is not the developer's intention or your desire.
Second is the fact that I put "exclusively roman" in...well... quotation marks.
this illustrates that I am not speaking in factual specifics but in assumption and perception.
The problem with your suggestion has never been one of factual issues. it has always been an issue of how such a decision (when not augmented by a dozen other decisions along the same vein, for "balance") would appear to show a PREFERENCE for the FACTUALNESS of one view of the world over all others....
and IN that light, it would seem to exclude (from the canon of the setting) the alternatives.
As has been said, many times, players will make what they want to make...
...but there is a huge difference between making an egyptian godling in a setting where only Roman godlings have been said to be real...
and making that same character in a setting that neither confirms nor denies ANY such creations.
You have said yourself, that you do not associate (look down on) players who are unwilling to adopt the lore of the setting.... you are not in a minority in this view (particularly among those who CARE about character and story in these games)
So if the Developers were to come out and say "Roman Gods are Real"... and more importantly "Roman gods function like THIS"... how long until your thinking less of someone who picks a different mythology, that isn't "part of the lore".... or want's to play a roman character, but doesn't adhere to MWM's version of Roman Mythos?
That is what I want to avoid. This PERCEPTION of exclusivity through omission. That by selecting one mythology as "real"... it implies that all unstated mythologies are "not real" or at least "less real"...
and, apart from NOT Canonizing ANY mythologies.... the only solution that I can see, is one of mass inclusions.
I truly believe that it would require a significant resource investment to follow the route of absolute inclusion (validating all mythic traditions through lore) and would ultimately be a waste for a majority of the game content.
So, to me, the best solution is to simply avoid canonizing any real world mythology within the canon lore of the game, and leave it open for interpretation by players.
I would prefer that people like you are unable to tell me that i'm being a "forth waller", simply because I'm playing my character based on some real world mythology, that isn't part of the stated lore.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
As for the rest...
I dislike Therakiel... specifically for the problems i've expressed in this thread.
His use DEFINES what gods are "real" and how angels and demons function and exist in the setting leaving no room for interpretation without "breaking canon"
How the game represents it's source's lore is immaterial to the argument I was making (which was that it established a setting (until the inclusion of Therakiel) where all mythologies were in potentia... all were potentially valid or potentially "just myth")
that's the only point I was making in using it as example, and nothing else.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Ok there are two cases being presented and you're arguing them in conjunction and I'd like to keep them separate to avoid the conflation of issues:
1) Should City of Titans attempt to Trademark Roman Diety lore in the same way that other comic book IPs?
2) Should lore exist in City of Titans that defines the origins of the characters in the universe, and if so how specific should the context be?
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1)
Just because Thor is the most known trademark of Marvel Diety lore doesn't mean Hercules doesn't still exist IN CANON in the same universe. This does not make the Marvel Universe somehow the Norse Universe. I reject your argument of perception. There will be examples of plenty of types of lore so that Roman deity lore, while it can be the most known of the deity lore, will still be weighted against the context of the story being presented.
2)
People will be 4th wallers. They are not 2nd class players or being slighted in any way. They are CHOOSING to tell their story in spite of the lore. 4th walling is a privilege to be enjoyed. I PERSONALLY find them too difficult to roleplay with because the learning curve is too steep to learn where "Planet Gropax" is and the culture of the "Gropaxians". If there are alien races in the lore, I will gladly learn them and use them as frame of reference when dealing with them in lore. If you want your concept to fit into the lore as presented there are plenty of ways to do that - if you prefer to be a 4th Waller then you're free and welcome to do that. Many canon characters came from 4th Walling (X-23 for example). If the story is compelling many people will welcome people who introduce their own elements to the canon.
I do not wish to water down compelling story for the sake of 4th Wallers (I dont need an explaination of why Sith Lord or any other Trademarked property exist in CoT). But Fairies, Deities, Mutants, Aliens, Vampires, "Order of the BLANK", all these are common non-trademarked ideas that I'd love to have context on how they fit in the Titans Universe. How are they viewed by the public? What is unique about them to give them this classification? Do they hold historic significance? This adds flavor to basic concepts and when players can join in on the storytelling that is canon they tend to be more engaged (at least in my experience *story above about visibility*)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm not arguing either of those qualities, actually.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
The actual crux of my argument (which, admittedly, I have not expressed well)... is that In an MMO, unlike an actual comic-book universe... there are two distinct categories of story.
there is the Lore, which the developers create and distribute.
and then there is player-created story (characters, bios, RP, etc)
In a comic-book setting, each new character, each new issue, is technically Lore, in that setting (that is, it becomes part of the canon)
In MMOs only the Lore (what developers "say" is canon) is canon...
So, in a comic book universe, one writer introduces Thor... and another Introduces Hercules... and BOTH are valid..both become Canon
But what you have been suggesting, is that the Developers introduce Thor... and the players can still write about Hercules. In an MMO, only Thor is Canon... ever.
And THAT is what I'm trying to minimize.
I'm saying that if the Developers choose to make the Roman Gods canon (HOWEVER they make that story out to be... be it aliens, or sentient machines or beings from another dimension or the literal creators of everything) then THAT mythology becomes canon.... and there will be consequences.
The two consequences I've addressed for players have been:
When the devs define one mythology as "True", all others become "less true"/"non-canon" (which can lead to a social stigma in the community as one set of players tells another that their character is "wrong" (however they may choose to phrase it))
and
When the devs explain the chosen mythology within the context of the setting, it creates a exclusivity of idea (only the "Gods are Aliens" explanation is "valid"/Canon.. all others are invalid/non-canon)
But there are consequences for the developers as well...
Because if they don't WANT "the only gods in the setting to be roman gods"... they are now forced to write into the lore the existance of all other forms of mythology/legend so as to maintain a balanced status quo.... by have ONE real world mythology be "canon"... the only way to prevent exclusion or invalidation of other mythologies, is to include them into the canon also...
OR
they are stuck with a very limited and restricted "world view" that makes it harder to make diverse content (if they don't go all in with the mythology, or choose to stick with "just rome", it creates a writing atmosphere where everything begins to adhere to this conceit (so as not to contradict it)... until eventually what's left is a City of Centurians fighting Mars and Neptune's minions across the globe at the Behest of Jupiter.... (implicit hyperbole, obviously))
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
This is a misrepresentation of my position. I have not suggested this. In the terms of your representation of my argument I have "advocated for the introduction of Thor" AND "advocated for the introduction of Hercules".
I have advocated that "Thor" get the spotlight of being a member of the "Avengers" while Hercules be apart of the "Avengers Initiative". Both existent. Both canon.
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I have to ask, even IF your representation of my position was accurate (which it is not) then what is your proposed solution?
- Is it to introduce neither Thor nor Hercules?
- Is it to introduce only player created characters?
- Is it to have only non-character kiosks that players "Mad Lib" in their own story? With the hopes that other players accept their version of the story?
or is it to include many representations of different lore so the players can model their many concepts after the different lore represented in the game?
Give me a citation of this happening because I aim not going to accept the hearsay hypothetical. In fact I've seen the opposite happen and cited examples. I'm asking you to prove the causational relationship of which you've only restated the claim with no supporting citation.
Even if someone ELSE said "I am Trivia, goddess of magic" how does this defacto diminish the lore of either characters both claiming to be Trivia, goddess of magic?
Is it a misnomer or is this your actual argument again.. no one said "the only gods". Perhaps the most defined of the lore but this is a world were being superhuman will be common. If your intent is not to use this in your argument as you suggest then why do you continue to insert it into your argument? That testimony is by your own admission exclusionary on the basis that you admit to its inauthenticity .
This is a false argument. The inclusion of rome does not by any version of the transitive property become city of centurians. There is no causation relationship. There is no suppositional relationship. Even as a hypothetical there is no way for A->C.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
"and the alternative is the exact problem I expressed earlier...
It's not that players "cant" or "wont" create their characters however they see fit..... it's the idea that, in doing so, they're being forced "out of the lore" because there is no room for their story in the setting as it's defined."
Why not? Please explain to me how the idea of a backstory that validates basically EVERY form of mythology (just in case someone wants to create the Avatar of the Amazon or a Hindu priest) forces out ANY player's story?
Methinks you're seeing this from a narrow and personal viewpoint if you don't mind my saying so.
I find it tough to believe that anyone playing the game will look at the Lore and say 'Shucks...I can't make my Space Alien from the Planet X character because their lore doesn't include Planet X'.
Please don't presume what others will think or do just because you think it or would or would not do it. Trying to guess what the players will feel, think or do happens a lot in gaming and too often it turns out wrong.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Just a question: When you say "Roman deity lore", do you mean the familiar, extremely hellenised form, or the obscure deiities and believes that were lost even in the time of the late Republic?
[url=http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/] Save the endangered Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus from Extinction![/url]
Either really. It's just a chance to trademark a popular known lore that isn't "taken".
The Roman Empires basically appropriated the lore of the greeks and changed the names to represent the solar system (thee original scientology) to unite their many conquered nations under one ideology. Government sanctioned religion is an easy way to control such large populous.
Which deities are chosen and how they are represented in game I trust to the composition team. They've not yet shared much of what the different factions are on a sociological basis
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And what about people who do not wish to have their lives subjected to Religious background? What about the people that don't believe in deities? Why MUST we have some kind of religious lore background? Why can't we just have lore background pertaining to the here and now? Why can't it just be historical background? Why must it be Mythological or Religious background?
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
It seems like the whole Roman Mythology thread is just a 'let's grab a trademark and be like Marvel' thing.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I agree Fireheart, and I don't like it. Don't feel like it's necessary.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I have trouble understanding the problem. You see, my boyfriend is a follower of the ancient egyptian gods, my best friend a shintoist and I also know an aspiring voodoo priest and some christians. And I'm a follower of the ancient germanic religion and we all get along quite well, since we can accept each others beliefs as truth. Spirituality and religion is something that lives and changes constantly and it's very very personal. Why should the game handle that any differently?
If the lore says Mars is a god of war and not the god of war, there is plenty of room left for others to bring up their own deitys, either based on existing religions or made up ones.
- I would rather play to the politics of inclusion than that of exclusion. The freedom of religion is that religion has no place in the public arena but it is that you have the unrestricted ability to express your beliefs. Alot of people tend to interpret it as the "freedom from religion" but enforcing any one ideology, atheism included, goes against those freedoms.
- Should we now remove all phoenix references because "I don't believe in the firebird"?
This is not a compelling argument to me for either position, for or against.
It is a "lets be like comics" thing, surely. Marvel is not the only license with deity lore.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Yes, but if we don't force a Mythological Religious background on people it's not like we aren't saying that YOU can't choose to include in your character background a Mythological Religious aspect of how your character came about while also explaining in YOUR mind some of the story about the City and it's Heroes. An individual's personal beliefs should be just that. The individuals. Not forced upon everybody who doesn't hold the same beliefs. If I choose to deny the existence of Roman and Greek Gods and only believe in one Almighty God, then why should I be subjected to the fact that the entire lore of the game is based around Roman/Greek Gods?
Religion is a very tricky thing. There are two things you don't talk about unless you want to make enemies. Religion and Politics. Personally I'd like to leave both of those out of my gaming experience. I have my beliefs and politics, you have yours. That's fine and great. I may not agree upon yours and you may not agree upon mine. The minute you start trying to force your views, opinions, and beliefs down my throat as fact and the way it should be is the minute you become my enemy. This is why I suggest the lore only be about factual, statistical subjects.
Example:
Titan City was founded by the first group of Superheroes known as the "Insert Team Name Here". It was founded in "Insert Historical Date Here". There are currently "Insert Numerical Value of Population" people currently living in Titan City. The current leaders of Titan City are "Insert Names of Current Local Heroes Here". Then go on to describe what the every day life is of the city and how villains and heroes are born every day. How they fight to maintain Justice, or overthrow the current government. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Someone pointed out champions lore, I whole-heartedly agree about champions online and it's lore, it's so black and white and poorly done that the game is like a golden age version of the 1960s batman series, or even as bad as the original batman movies after the first one(batman being more and more sueish, disco balls in his car, ect, you know which one I'm talking about). The lines are bad, the game just utterly fails to portray any of the badguys as threatening, even(thats a combination of the casualness of the games gameplay, though, to.).
Then I run into those who try to rp Champions lore, and fail miserably because every one of them seems to be some annoying godmoder that says "well if your character is X then my Y should automatically have control of said character". Its so bad I'm utterly unwilling to follow champions lore at all, due to the sheer number of god-moders who use it as an excuse to god mode on a power trip. I'm not even willing to bother writing a plot out for a foundary for that game if it did get one, due to how bad most of the roleplayers tend to be.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
I'd like to add another comment about lore. You don't have to have an excessive amount of cutscenes to portray the lore. Throw things like computers you can log into/hack into with emails and the like, news bins for people to read, conversations between good and badguys ect, can cut down drastically on the cutscenes needed. The last thing I want in a game with a story in truth is a lot of cutscenes in a linear path forcing you into those cutscenes. IF you looked at the marathon series and the deus ex series, both games have extremely rich lore behind them, but it doesn't cut from the gameplay, you instead only have to read up on whats going on in the various terminals in marathon or the news articles, emails and data cubes of deus ex, you'd find a lot of information on things in both games.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
Misnomer. No one is asking for this, yet it is continually used in argument.
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I don't hide from the conversation, but have already stated that I believe in the politics of inclusion. Your argument for the exclusion of one type of lore based on the idea that it is or was a belief system does not hold water. "Religeous" imagery is everywhere.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Another thing to mention with the post above is room design can also tell a story. You could for example make an alien ship with an engine room thats showing signs of damage and neglect if it's an especially old ship. Throw in a well maintained, prestine captains room with a few trinkets with differing languages and origins about them, a cargo room with a lot of various items of differing origins, none of which with the language the ships computers use. This could be a military vessel that scouts other civilizations invasively, or even just simply a bunch of space pirates, considering who's getting what. You could even have the whole ship having states of neglect and a small bit of disorder to further portray the ship as a pirate ship.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
I've watched enough Dr Who to know there's plenty of fun explanations for things that seem extremely weird at first.
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I will say that the deeper the lore the more people have to be fanboys about. For instance I didn't really watch Venture Brothers until the layers of story got so thick I had to become a lore head.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And you saying my argument doesn't "Hold water" doesn't hold water! I'm tired of you saying that and just dismissing my ideas entirely! Just because you want to dismiss what I have to say doesn't mean my argument isn't valid or "Hold water"!
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I don't mean to sound dismissive.
We have seen art of the Phoenix. This is religious Imagery.
We've seen art of Witches and Warlocks. This is religious imagery.
We've seen art of animals with human personification. This is religious imagery.
You are advocating for the exclusion of one type of religious imagery on the basis that you don't want to be exposed to alternate belief systems. Well you will be exposed to imagery representing alternate belief systems. Thus the argument for the exclusion is self defeating or in colloquial terms "doesn't hold water".
You can surely modify your argument to what it is in Roman deity belief system sets it apart from the Mayans, Wiccans, or Native Americans for exclusion. But the argument as you presented it is not valid.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And sometimes a Bird is just a bird. Doesn't mean it has to be something religious or tie in to something of religion. I don't associate a Raven with something religious. It's just a Raven. Why does something need to be tied to something religious? For that matter why do we need to tie it to something that is of this world religion? Why can't City of Titans have it's own lore and own symbols and meanings? Why can't we leave it up to the imagination of the person playing the game? Why must we define it? Just to make it clear for one person's immersion to be able to play a game? I'm advocating letting each individual come up with their own unique design for their purposes. How is this not including everybody? If you want the Phoenix to be a symbol from Planet Xenoid representing the God Heliod, why can't it? Why must it be tied to the Greek belief? From my understanding there are lots of cross references to many religious symbolic items. So which one is right, and which one is wrong? Who are you to decide?
Like I said, introducing Religion or Religious aspects into something can be very tricky and can upset MANY people. Why would you want to do that? Wouldn't the safer course be to make sure as many people as possible are happy? So why does my advocating leaving Mythological/Religious Lore out of the game not make sense? Because it upsets you? What about all the other people who play the game and feel the same way I do? As far as imagery goes, why don't you let me decide how I interpret that imagery? Why must I interpret it in your manner? Maybe to me a Phoenix doesn't bring to mind the same things it does to you. If somebody knows nothing about the background of something they are free to make up whatever they want for that something to represent to them. If I were to take somebody who knew absolutely nothing about Greek Mythology and showed them a Phoenix, what do you think they'd come up with for what it was?
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I see a lot of argument for freedom of creativity when it comes to personal lore, and I agree with that to an extent. But I also want an MMO with precedent. I want to be told "Hey, this is the first biologically created vampire!" This point has been brought up, but this does in no way negate the existence of magical vampires, or alien vampires. Something like that is much different than declaring an origin for everyone (DCUO). It is very possible to declare truth in one area without indicating falsehood in another.
And this idea that the writers have to implement all types of mythology in order to be balanced is an extreme way to look at things, however, that doesn't mean it can't be done. and just because I like explanation, doesn't mean everything has to be very obviously drawn out. You can say that Odin, Ra and Zeus all exist, but I don't think its necessary to justify exactly how/why they all operate. Or you can just flesh out Odin. But if you just focus on one pantheon, be sure to emphasize that there are pantheons out there. this doesn't seem like a monumental issue.
Please forgive me, if this is important to you, but I consider 'being like comics' to be too limiting. Or, rather, being 'only like comics', or only 'like silver-age comics'.
I'm hoping that the City will absorb and hold stories from all manner of genres.
Be Well!
Fireheart
A agree with the sentiments you share Thanatos.
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Fireheart, comic books are the main source superhero lore. For this reason I am of the opinion that the lore should predominantly resemble comic books. I welcome other source material to be incorporated as well. I know many players want to play fantasy lore, many players want to dress as winged dragon demons, many players want to be space bandits, but I think this lore should be interpreted through the lens of superhero lore.
Should a player decide to 4th Wall it and simply imagine their own interpretation of the virtual world experience then all the power to them.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Saying "There is one almighty god in the CoT world" or "Greek/Roman Gods of mythology are found to be the true gods of the world in the CoT world" does not force any belief on any player. It just defines the lore of CoT.
And factual statistical subjects...wouldn't something like "A war broke out between angels and demons, proving once and for all in one heaven one hell, to the masses, in 1969, getting the heroes and villains of Earth involved in aiding their respective side!" be that?
Are they taking that on-line or just reading on their own?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Yes, I've had many discussions with them, most of them rather fruitful. Some of the people I mentioned are more open about it, some tend to keep it to themselves. The aspiring voodoo priest for instance is quite open, as long as you show earnest interest.
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