I oppose any and all ways to disable Knockback "on demand", because it'll end up being "on the demand of whiny melee players" and not by my choice. Well, unless the option came with the ability to turn off one of their powers, too, then it'd be fair.
I follow you, but expect some people to take a "turn it on or GTFO" attitude, so I'd rather it wasn't there.
OK, it's only in two threads that I've seen this trend, but it does disturb me. A toggle is proposed to provide putting something being on or off in the hands of the players, and some persons think that, because some a55 hat5 may say "Flip that toggle or I boot you from the team" (or just whine about it, if they aren't the team leader) the toggle shouldn't be there. This seems to me to be saying that because some people may try to pressure people into making a choice, you want the choice taken away altogether.
I don't need choices taken away from me to preserve my freedom of choice, I get too much of that from the government IRL. In every MMORPG on my taskbar, I find two functions already there (I hope they will be in CoT, as well) which let me deal with persons who try to pressure me into doing things their way. One is "Leave Team", the second is "/ignore a55@hat5". Usually the first is enough.
Whatever the other merits or problems of the proposed toggles may be, please do not let the possibility that someone may try to pressure others into setting the toggle one way lead you to decide to set it the other way and break it off.
/rant
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Well, obviously I disagree with this rant. You know, with me being quoted here.
But to put it in a bit more words, I find it paramount to any system and UI design in an MMO to not just consider the individual player, but also try to predict the impact said features will have on social interaction within the game. An option such as the knockback toggle would create needless social conflict as there are people who love knockback and people who hate and they will probably never agree. By adding such a toggle the conflict will escalate from annoyed tolerance of each others' positions to outright confrontations over the issue since all of a sudden there's a "solution" to something one party sees as a problem and the other sees as a feature.
And this is something all elements of the game will have to work with. How XP is shared when two different players both kill an NPC will determine how the game looks at killstealing, how powerful buffs/debuffs/healing/ranged/melee/control is will determine how the game is played, and people will interact with each others' characters. Same with costume parts, where CoH for instance had very few options in the pink-beige spectrum to avoid people making naked looking characters. Which they still did, but not quite as easily. The big open space right at the newbie starting point in Atlas Park became a gathering spot, simply through level design along. There wasn't anything interesting there, except open space, a huge statue, and other players.
And that is why any toggle switch has to be viewed with extreme caution as something so simple could ruin the play experience for many by making it acceptable to demand other people nerf their characters so yours can work optimally. And that will end up as a very toxic environment for teaming.
So, I still oppose any kind of knockback toggle, but it's not just because it's knockback. I oppose any kind of self-nerf toggle in the game due to the social interaction issues it can cause. Why make more of those when they can be avoided by simply doing nothing?
Personally, I hate it when there is *NO* option to reduce it yourself (either via slotting or whatever).
But this isn't just limited to KB (for example), but it has also happened to global names (some people DONT want it, because they want just one name per server.... shame the game is only going to have one server), "twitch combat" and so on.
They ALL have their pro's and cons. Sure, some people may ask you to "tone it down" (KB style) if the option is there... but its quite possible that you would get the same warning even if it WASNT present. I know that in CoX that when i played it, before the -KB IO was introduced that some players were being asked to tone it down with their knockback (we were in an AOE heavy team, and appeared that he INSISTED on knocking them out of the AOE's).
People will be jerks if the option is present or not.
Hell, I remember someone (I dont think on this forum), arguing for NO twitch combat, but that you could still avoid attacks/projectiles could be blocked by going behind a wall/rolling out of the way. *blinks* Sure, twitch combat for one person is different to what another person would call it.
But if we are going to go the route of "it could be used for bad", I want chat to be removed... because, you know... people will be rude and maybe I just want to play by myself. Oh and if there are global chats, then they had better make it that when you are able to *ban* people from "public" global channels....
/signed
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The latter option is actually something that I would *love* to see happen, because it was one of the few things that I felt was missing from the CoX chat channel setup
I think the toggle is still being suggested to death already in that other thread. Haters are gonna hate, whichever solution. The toggle is one valid concept, but CoT may not play exactly like CoH. There's nothing gained by bashing other people's concepts over and over. I also think it's fine to suggest possible player reactions, it might lead to further creativity. I do agree with the OP not to assume behaviours without actual playtesting. Player behaviour can also change. eg. as players learned to like debuffers.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
yeah no telling what will happen but at the same time though, there have been chatter about CoT being similar in playstyle ot CoT and KB was one of those hot button issues. Sure leave the team, but in some places in COX, good luck then doing a TF/SF/Trial alone solo since it was team gated.
Understanding is a two way street and not simply for one side "don't like it gtfo". thing. That is what is the bare bones that create a lot of friction. Like some blaster sets like the energy blast was kb heavy. One blaster got asked to tone it down, then a few minutes later got barked at for not attacking enough. Well hell, they didn't like KB so that took out many of his powers, now the are on his case for not using said powers. Eventually he left but being half way through a TF that means that tiem was wasted, and that means more time will be wasted to find another team that is interested in that TF and or forming one which in many cases took a couple of hours if it happened at all. Thus leaing the team only one that suffered was the victim.
One way to solve that of course and where the "do what I say or GTFO" would be viable if one could leave the team and still complete the task on their own. I also think people would be more understanding of play styles and powers if they knew that the player didn't need them, which I think many people took advantage of that, and could complete it without them. When they knew teams are hard to come by and only way to complete TFs and certain tasks were on a team then people became Nazi with it. You are supposed to play how they want you to play when they want you to play and what powers they want you to use, or good luck playing the TF and other team gated stuff. Of course this is less issue with more population that regular run every thing but with low population games, and or majority of interest going towards farming a few TF/trials, it gave the people that think I=understanding is one way street. Understanding how they want people to play or else mindset, had power due to the game mechanics and they knew it and used it to their advantage.
On paper it looks easy to say "Well why don't you leave the team" but in COX many times getting on a team or forming a team for a TF took hours if it even happened to get enough people to join. Which made leaving a team in a team gated event like a TF not very optional and more punishment for the victim on top of the punishment they already had. Maybe at the time the devs wasn't aware of the friction KBs had, but now there is an example and wit ha new game maybe it can be tweaked. Because more than likely, it's probably easier to tweak KB in some way than to expect people to understand that other people also play the game and it's not very polite to Nazi another player's play style and that the other player probably don't like it any more than they would if someone did it to them.
Plus unlike other games, a large amount of the potential and future players come from COX, a game where the behavior have been observed in various situations. And given that many things of CoT is aiming to be just like COX, then it's probably a good guess that the behavior response will be the same or near as it was when it was in COX. On the flip side though, changes do seem to be made and before for sure for sure testing will need to be doen to see the effects of the change some may solve nothing some may solve stuff in an unintended manner for better or worse, or it will be new problem same response, or new problem new response, or a mixture of all.
Certainly we have along way to go before we are ready for release. And there will be much playtesting along the way.
Regarding "twitch" mechanics, my one concern is the broadest inclusion of people to play the game. There are people that just can't cope with the reactions needed to utilize that type of ability, or play style. So, we need to take care not to implement something that could exclude a portion of our community due to limitations beyond their control.
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As for the rest, please keep sharing your ideas and comments. I ask that you try to stay respectful and constructive, and I will do my best as well. You never know when an idea you oppose may contain something of merit to you. I've experienced that many times, and it often leads to solutions you never expected.
Stay loose and let's keep talking.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I'd rather have a conversation like
"Can I join your party?"
"Sure, but if you don't mind, could you toggle off your KB?"
rather than
"Can I join your party?"
"No."
What might make a better game is not trying to worry about the broadest inclusion, and instead just making the best game possible.
If you have 50k players no matter what direction you take, and one system gives the broadest inclusion of people, but only brings in 1k more people, but making something that will intrigue more people but brings in another 50k people...wouldn't the later be the better option?
I'd rather see...
"Can I join your party?"
"Sure!"
Of course that is the best solution. But if my powers can negatively affect the team then this wont happen. It didnt happen in CoH so why would it happen in CoT? (assuming KB works in the same way).
If KB will work differently then the entire KB>KD discussion is irrelevant until we know how KB will work.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Truthfully, I think the KB hate of "kick em" never hit me. My AR/PSI didn't hover, didn't try to group enemies into walls. I released my AOEs! That meant my AOE Grenade attack scattered :p Never got kicked, and I went into making my AR/PSI with the intention of just releasing all that AOE (and it's KB) with no care :p
However it was mentioned often on the forums, I can only guess it had to happen, but the forum community is often loud and the minority of the game they play.
As I Slotted my IO'es I started to care ALLOT less if others KB'ed. As long as others werent HATING on me (me playing the Tank) for not holding the Aggro, which was more problematic in the low levels, i started to care Less and Less. :)
I never ask if I can join other people's teams. Most of the time, I'd rather play alone. On the rare occasions that I decided to accept an invite to team, if I was playing a Knockback centric character, I always warned the team with an, "I apologize for the Knockback I will be doing." That let them know that 1) I was aware of the fact that I had Knockback powers and 2) I was aware that it could have irritating effects for some of the team members. The responses that I received for my warning were along the lines of "No worries".
However, I did get yelled at once for knockback during a TF while playing my Warshade in Human form. Where most of the direct damage attacks have knockback. Which is why I only did TFs with my regular Wednesday night group after that. Where most of the knockback came from the Claws/Regen Scrapper of all people.
Hope that is kept in mind before making a lot of things luck based.
This statement is rather at odds with the, seemingly, prevalent opinion that it was the community that made CoH (to paraphrase slightly) the best game possible. That said, prevalent scarcely means universal so there is no harm in examining the "too bad if you can't hack it" approach.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I expect us to seek to do both.
Also, the idea of attempting to be inclusive seems to me to speak to what made the community what it was. That does not mean limiting the development, but I prefer that we remain mindful of 'All" of the people that made up that community.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I think the point was missed. Yes. CoH was simple, you hear people say "Such and such limitation on me, I can't play this game." but I promise you, someone with such and such limitation is playing such games as WoW and TERA and loving it.
I am not attempting to dispute that.
I can tell you that several people expressed concerns very early (more than six months ago) about our plans for the game controls and their preference to avoid "twitch" type responses. The discussion was focused on allowing a less demanding style of controls operation to perform the tasks required of their characters, and CoH was referred to as an example of a preferred design.
I don't find it reasonable to exclude this group by preventing a more relaxed type of game interface, even if they are the minority. Of course, I have no way of knowing if these are the same individuals playing those other games. It seems better to me to factor this into the design, and reach for the broadest range of options possible. Exactly how controls will work and what amount of customization will be available is still in work.
Of course this is just my personal opinion.
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I don't mind the CoH controls. Loved CoH.
Just not agreeing with the having an impairment prevents someone from playing. In other MMOs I've seen people say such things as "playing with just one hand with a mouse" or "playing with such and such impairment will be a bit slower"
I mostly played blasters and tanks and never really was bothered by knockback and never heard people complain about it. Then again I never got higher than level 25 or so. If knock back could be considered a problem then why not send them in another direction? Knocking a guy into the air is a classic comic move. Less effective in enclosed spaces but still useful. When I was testing CO one of my favorite moves was to punch a guy into the air with a knock up move and then reel him back in with a chain. Which brings up another question. Are there Hook powers for tanks that lets them physically pull a guy off your party?
I have read about people playing STO solely using voice commands for practically everything. I like voice commands. Unfortunately, I couldn't get voice attack to work with CoH for some reason.
I kind of agree with you, as handy as a self nerf toggle is, there will probably come a point where that toggle is treated like CR in DC universe. In other words, sure you can leave a team and not have to nerf yourself, but if toggled knockback becomes a requirement, just like CR, then it doesn't matter how many people you ignore or how many teams you leave, because the next one you get invited to will probably have the same requirement.
Options are nice, especially for PC, but there needs to be a different workaround.
Once more ... Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. It's amazing that no one dares to lay odds on this particular outcome actually happening ... even insofar as asserting whether the possibility is likely or not, whether the odds of it happening are break even 50/50, or whatever. Instead, all we get is analysis that boils down to "any non-zero percentage chance will be treated as if it were a 100% chance" in order to dismiss the entire topic of discussion. We've even seen people declaring that if it happens in even 1 out of 100 cases, that's just too much for their tolerance level ... which is for all intents and purposes an Absolutist Position, because it means that the only acceptable answers involve 0% chances (ie. absolute ironclad guarantees).
Is such an outcome as toggled knockback becoming a requirement possible? Yes, it is POSSIBLE simply because the chances of such a thing occurring are not zero.
Is such an outcome as toggled knockback becoming a requirement likely as a standard default assumption? My sense is that NO IT WOULDN'T and that it would only be a superminority share of the community that would try to impose such a standard on others, rather than a supermajority.
I'm perfectly willing to live with such an outcome because I realize that there's going to be a minority of Players who hate Knockback [i]no matter what you do[/i] because ... haters gonna hate ... and that's just how communities are, regardless of whether toggled knockback is available or not.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Well, Tannim222 chimed in with a surprisingly elegant potential solution in the Knockback thread:
If they can pull that one off, then the toggle idea is dead and gone.
Also this little gem from Minotaur:
I find this attitude a really healthy sign for the game. They don't trust us, as they shouldn't. City of Heroes trusted that no one would be dumb enough to forego slotting a power for endurance and recharge just to get more damage. The players did just that... all of them. So, Enhancement Diversification happened. Because they trusted the players to play as designed. Players almost NEVER play as designed. So, yeah, all in all, I'm fairly confident that this game is in good hands from this little exchange.
A little tangent, but what is DR in DC Universe?
I will say this. Not everyone slotted their damaging powers just for damage. I actually slotted some recharge and End Redux in my powers. Enhancement Diversification didn't really hit me as hard as it did the 6 slot damage slotters. But, I did understand the need for Enhancement Diversification.
I did not understand the "need" for Inherent Fitness though. I had perfectly viable builds that could keep up with most anyone and those builds did not have Stamina.
They didn't slot for recharge/end red because they didn't need too. Hasten was easily permable. Stamina slotted up took care of all end concerns. 1 ACC/5 DMG (or in my case, I went 2 ACC/4 DMG) was good enough for all PvE concerns.
ED was a good idea, for when IOs came into play, suckie for before IOs came into play.
Finally -- I'm not alone! I'm so used to hearing people claim that Fitness was a "requirement" that it's refreshing to find someone else who disagrees. Even after they made it inherent, I think I slotted Fitness on only a third of my characters at most.
Spurn all ye kindle.
There was a very small group on the CoH forums that tried to show that Fitness did not need to be inherent. It was like whispering next to Niagara Falls though.
My personal opinion was that those most vocal for Inherent Fitness were of the mindset that if the Endurance bar twitched the tiniest bit, they didn't have enough Recovery. To them, no amount of Recovery would have been enough.
I put enhancements in the empty slots in the Fitness powers, but for most of my characters, I rarely added any more slots to them.
well some builds were tad bit end heavy and not everyone were build gurus or had access or inf to make it where their build didn't need the pool power, especially during those solo times.
By definition it could be said that nothing beyond brawl and a the first couple basic attacks were not needed. Somewhere there is a guy sitting somewhere saying that even enhancements were not needed because he went from 1-50 without them or someone leveled without using their toggles and thus not needed, or picked a bunch of pool powers and the primary and secondary were not needed as he didn't use them much.
What is needed in the eyes of one is unneeded in the eyes of another who needs are unneeded in the eyes of another and so on. And of course they cant understand why people feel they need it since they personally didn't need it but feel what they need is a true need and don't see how anyone can say it is unneeded.
Those were, if I'm not mistaken, refereed to as "Man Builds". Mainly, because they used powers that did not have "Superpower" effects. there were individuals that managed to get them up to the higher levels, if not max level. Those aren't reasonable builds, to my way of thinking. However, I also don't count the builds that are min/maxed to the nines to be reasonable builds either.
I didn't use billions of Inf to SO out my builds at that time. I never had Billions. I could make enough Inf and use drops to get my characters to function well enough to not be be a drag on the people I teamed with. I might not have done as much damage per hit as they did, but I could attack as frequently, and sometimes, more so. And, my builds were [b]much[/b] more diverse than theirs, because I didn't have to relegate 5 or 6 powers to the "perceived mandatory powers" that "everyone had to get" in order to have a viable build. Which meant that I could do more things than they could at a lower level. All because I was "sub-optimal".
There are those in other games that will tell you that you are gimped of you don't have such-and-such top-of-the-line gear. But you can manage just fine with the basic gear from drops. You might not be able to beat the main max level boss by yourself. But, I doubt that any game is really designed around soloing top level bosses anyway.
The allowing you to build to solo those AVs is what made CoH great! Yes, for most of the builds outside a couple AT combo's, it was that expensive IO build, but it was something one had to work for.
And yes, many complained if you were at all better. And yes, some complained if you weren't the top. However, in my experience, the former was more prevalent than the last, and at the same time, no different than the PvPers who complained about anyone who beat them, regardless of build.
They allowed it, but I don't they had that in mind when they added IOs and such. Maybe they had that in mind with the Incarnate system, but I doubt it. Players will always find way to exceed the limitations that the Devs had in mind.
No idea. I just recall them making a post that they think you should beable to do such a thing. Build to solo those AVs. Maybe it was because it was done and not part of their planning?
Stamina-less builds were possible, but realistically were often only usable in builds that were all clicks with hardly any toggles and which had some sort of Endurance drain/leech/steal/whatever Power in them in order to refuel ... things like [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Kinetics.Transference]Transference[/url] or [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Warshade_Defensive.Umbral_Aura.Stygian_Circle]Stygian Circle[/url] or [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Defense.Ice_Armor.Energy_Absorption]Energy Absorption[/url] and the like, not to mention Powers such as [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Scrapper_Defense.Regeneration.Quick_Recovery]Quick Recovery[/url]. I'm hard pressed to think of any viable builds for powersets like Dark Armor (7 or 8 toggles was not unheard of!) or even Super Reflexes (I personally ran 3 secondary and 3 leadership toggles full time) that would have been able to go for more than 30 seconds without exhausting themselves if they didn't have [i]a pair of Empaths[/i] running with them [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Empathy.Recovery_Aura]Recovery Aura[/url] and trading off activations for 100% uptime.
My Mind Control/Kinetics Controller, Ms Givings, could have potentially been set up a an "all Clicks" Controller and been able to dispense with Stamina (potentially) ... but then that would mean that I couldn't sustain [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Control.Mind_Control.Telekinesis]Telekinesis[/url] (one of THE most Endurance heavy toggles in the entire game!) nor run the Assault and Tactics Leadership toggles, which were just way too darn useful/valuable on a Controller (except for Maneuvers, which was just pitiful).
And then you had Powers like [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Scrapper_Defense.Super_Reflexes.Quickness]Quickness[/url] that acted as a global Recharge Reduction ... but offered no Endurance Reduction to go along with it, thereby effectively increasing the rate of Endurance Consumption Over Time because all of your attacks could recharge faster. Made getting the Net Endurance Recovery balance somewhat tricky to accomplish. On most of my character builds, I needed to have somewhere between +1.7 to +2.0 Endurance Recovery per second in order to be able to fight in sustained long duration combat without exhausting myself in a minute or two, which made for an important consideration when slog fighting through things like ITFs, Rikti Mothership Raids, Lady Grey Task Force ... and so on.
So there were a minority of builds that didn't "need" Stamina ... but there were definitely a supermajority of available builds that DID [b]NEED[/b] Stamina in order to be viable for longer than 30 seconds, and use of Rest to "take a knee" after every fight wasn't exactly an efficient/effective use of playing time (especially when on a steamroller team!).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I THINK the people who said Stamina wasn't really needed tended to take pauses after every spawn to catch back up on END.
Personally, I never had a huge problem with END pre inherent stamina... of course, I was playing a DM/Regen scrapper, followed by a WarShade, followed by an Emp Defender that always teamed with at least one other Emp Defender... can't think of three characters more suited to not having Stamina in the build.
My mastermind never needed Stamina. Everyone else did, or they just Fell Behind in all the fights.
And it is really just a build issue: if you have enough slots free, you might be able to double up END reduction enhancements and make the build work without Stamina.
But when one power slot plus two or three enhancement slots equals an END reduction enhancement (that didn't count against ED limits!) in every END-heavy power, honestly, that's just too good a deal to pass up. In hindsight, the base benefit of Stamina was probably just OP, if the devs wanted an END-throttled game overall.
IO sets made things a bit worse, too, because, if you wanted the good set bonuses, you took whatever END reduction the set gave you, which usually worked out to one and a half or so END reduction IOs.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
YEp, I felt that IO set bonuses helped a lot towards the overall End Management as well... so you could build a character (pre inherant Stamina) without Stamina slotted, but still have a nice bonus towards End management
But you have to remember as well that the faster your powers recharged, the more end gain (or end reduction in powers) you needed overall...
There should be a vote button on teams.
If someone is rubbish at whatever it is their build is supposed to be good at, they get sent to a training camp until they learn to use it properly.
Same with someone who is a rubbish leader and keeps turning down perfectly good potential team mates, the rest of the team can vote them into some kind of leadership training class.
That will teach them.
Or you know.. you could just make your own team and kb the crap out of whatever you want, just saying.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Illusion/Force Field Controller. Dispersion Field, Superior Invisibility, and Repulsion Field (also a huge Endurance hog when holding 2 Paragon Protector bosses against a wall). I still had the Endurance to take down both bosses while the rest of the team took on the rest of the Paragon Protectors in that group. Including a third boss. All that Without Stamina or Empaths.
Also, an example of how Knockback can be beneficial.
*Looks around for the original topic*
Uh...guys? We are SO FAR off topic as to warrant a new zip code. Seriously, you want to discuss End usage and the need for Stamina? Please start another thread for it. The topic at hand is the OP and the 'disturbing trend' regarding KB. Can we possibly either discuss that or close the thread?
Seriously...when He Who Shall Ramble has to drag the thread back to the target we have an issue here.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Actually, wasn't the original topic about how much anger and vituperation, name-calling and put-downs were being generated over trivial disagreements about which we know little or nothing regarding what the Devs are thinking?
Be Well!
Fireheart
LOL! Point taken, and well made.
I never found myself on a team in CoX where the leader threatened to boot anyone (other than a player who was just not participating). I think if I had, I would have self-booted and gone to find a nicer group of people to team with.
Spurn all ye kindle.
No, I think you're right, it Was the whole issue of 'Some people are so... "something" that they would refuse to play with others.'
Also, some silly apprehension that such people are somehow 'right' in their behavior and need to be supported.
Patently silly.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I was sent a /tell once while playing my Dark/Dark Defender. They asked me if I was a healer. I told them that I had a heal. They did not invite me to the team. I shrugged and went on about my business.
I always loved to mess with people who just randomly sent tells and team invites. "Are you a healer?" has to be the most fun. I'd stand right where they were for a minute or two and just wait for someone to say "Wait, this guy's a Corrupter," but sadly that never happened. So usually my kicking after everyone who just played willy-nilly got wiped (spoilers: it was all but the Tanker.. and maybe a MM) was preceded by "You didn't ask if I was a TEAM Healer"
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Reminds me of a friend who played a regen scrapper named Aid Self and constantly got invites expecting h34lz0r.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Seen some people do that. People ask "why are you not healing me. You said you are a healer." The reply I remember "I AM a healer. I can heal myself. Oh you meant could I heal OTHER people. Uhm no I cant."
*Croaks feebly* T-t-topic?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
There has been a disturbing trend of topic drift of late.
/em nod nod nods
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
It IS an internet message board, after all ;)
Im going to throw this out there...
Energy blasters can mostly agree with me on the fact that energy "felt" powerful because your blasts made a big explosion and sent enemies flying in every which direction. What if there was a scaling facter that would diminish your knockback distance but also diminishes your damage potential (base damage)? This would coincide with the loss of the "feel" of "blowing stuff up" and sending enemies back to their grandmas.
Just an idea.
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[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/knockback]Been there. Done that.[/url]
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The trouble with a "disable" option is in the calculation in damage for the sets. KB is a type of damage mitagation and it influences the amount of damage the set got. We can't just get rid of KB without changing some other aspect of the powers because the balanced set will no longer be balanced. This is where new ideas will come in handy to develop some type of system somewhere, whether it is in the Boost system or inspiration system (forgot what the new name was).
A couple of variation of Inspiration like "essense of earth" that will convert kb to stun, immobilize to sleep, etc. and vive versa.
I've been gone from the forums for a while and checkin in from time to time. Hope the devs and forum members have enjoyed the holidays. I still need to move all my threads from the old forums over... Too many :p
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Who is this "we" you refer to kemosabe?
Why not?
No ... seriously ... why not?
To put an even finer point on things, you're starting from a baseline assumption that doing anything to Knockback must somehow be "paid for" if it can be adjusted. But here's the point on which your assumption rests that assures a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" insistence that no matter what happens, Knockback must always be penalized.
If you increase Knockback ... Damage must be reduced or Endurance/Recharge Costs must be increased to "compensate" for the increase in Knockback.
If you decrease Knockback ... Damage must be reduced or Endurance/Recharge Costs must be increased to "compensate" for the reduction in Knockback.
Both of these conditions cannot be true while claiming to be after "balance" at the same time, because then you're just penalizing Knockback for being Knockback, which is not fair.
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I gotta say...one of the things that Red keeps repeating, and nobody seems to be getting, is the whole 'paying for' damage with KB idea. Where did we get this idea that KB is some evil thing to compensate for more damage? Everyone keeps mentioning 'balance' and 'kb' in the same sentence like they're joined at the hip or something.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
So, go with the idea that all Tier blasts do the same damage. And it's the secondary effects that determine if the damage goes up or down. Maybe range blast KB has damage go down while melee attack KB has damage go up the more damage?
never thought of it in that manner but yeah.
Is that how they do other powers like those with any sort of secondary effect, like holds, immobs, slows, confuse, regen reduction, unresisted damage (penetration in some games), recharge reduction, sleeps, defense/resistance debuffs and such?
City of Heroes was set up as most attack Powers that were oriented around dealing Damage having a main Damage effect with a secondary effect added on. This meant that the secondary effects didn't "cost extra" to have (or not have). Indeed, for some Powers, extra damage WAS the secondary effect ... either as an instant damage effect or as an added Damage over Time (re: Fire). Practically EVERY Power in City of Heroes was built this way.
Now, granted, there were some powers that inverted this relationship, such that the Damage was the secondary effect and some other effect was Primary (mez, knockback, AoE, etc.), but that was more a matter of "exchanging" the primary purpose of the Power ... kind of like how Scrappers were the reverse of Tankers as far as Primary/Secondary powersets went, creating a different dynamic which was similar but not the same.
Which is just a long winded "show your work" kind of way to answer jag40's question in that ... yes ... the same principles applied to all powers, not just Knockback.
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Well, some people, generally those (not all) that played Melee characters, thought Knockback was evil because it made them have to move to attack the enemy that was just knocked back. Those people, that I just refereed to, would like to get rid of knockback and make it all Knockdown.
Others, some of them played melee characters as well, have no issue with Knockback knocking the enemy away and see the Knockback as being beneficial when used properly (just like holds, immobs, stuns, slows, sleeps, and even damage).
Maybe if they just give all melee characters a lunge style attack (like in CO) they wont find it as bad. CoH did lack a lunge attack.
Short answer: One of your two statements is in error, and both seem to be incomplete. How's this:
"If you increase Knockback ... Damage must be reduced or Endurance/Recharge Costs must be increased or some other balancing mechanism to compensate for the increase in Knockback.
If you add a switch so knockback is at the will of the player using the power ... Damage must be reduced or Endurance/Recharge Costs must be increased or some other balancing mechanism to compensate for the reduction in unwanted side effects to Knockback.
If you decrease Knockback ... Damage must be increased or Endurance/Recharge Costs must be reduced or some other balancing mechanism to compensate for the reduction in Knockback."
hmm, maybe not so short an answer ^_^
I'm still hoping that folks will understand that {switchable knockback}!={decreased knockback} and that reducing unwanted side effects of, just like adding utility to, an otherwise balanced power will make it unbalanced. And, yes, balance and knockback are joined at the hip. As are balance and every other power and effect in the game; it's just that knockback is the effect that has a change proposed for it, so that's the one we're noticing.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic ^_^
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Well, if Rooting wasnt very long (lower it to 1 second, depending on the power used) on certain powers, maybe I wouldnt disslike KB on my scrapper, tank, brute as much. :P
I am all for removing rooting from the "bread and butter" attacks. Punching someone in the face shouldn't root you. A Haymaker or Foot Stomp, on the other hand, probably should.
Two whole threads about removing kb yeesh. It boils down to this.......
If the melee types have a ranged attack or two as many melee sets in CoH did this is a non issue.
If the issue is interfering with tank and spank gameplay we need to know the following.
1.Is that even going to be an effective way to play in the new game?
2.Is it any more dersireable than a different style of play, including ones that leverage kb?
Assuming that the devs are listening closely to these threads, as I am sure they are, proposed approaches to aggro management, aoe strength, and enemy AI could make herding VERY ill advised and a reliable hard control like kb VERY desireable.
I for one maintain that kb never was a problem. Not that no one ever spoiled a herd or got kicked from a team, but it seems like one of those urban legends that every knows of.....third hand. I do know of, first hand, several super group built around kb use.
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
No. :(
Dont say Remove. That makes me sad. Say Modify. ;)
I just want more Control over What, When, Where, How, And Why.
o.O Wait, dont ask Why... try Bud Dry! ;D
First hand, know many SGs, players, teams that hated KB and first hand seen many people get kicked for using KB or not picked up on the team because they are viewed as KB heavy. AKA, many storm controllers got basically rejected because it was assumed the storm would simply just spam hurricane and spread all the mobs around.
As I said, me personally KB was never an issue but it was very apparent an issue beyond urban legend level to some people. Even the many complaints about fusionette going KB crazy and many teams simply avoiding the Faultline story arc simply because they dont want o deal with a CPU controlled entity that is KB crazy.
Okay, but for some reason, some people are completely unwilling to see that 'KB or no KB' was never a part of the calculations in CoH. Endurance, Recharge and Damage were calculated with each other, but KB was (almost) always a 'secondary effect'. Also, I don't think anyone is actually suggesting the REMOVAL of Knock.
What I want to do is change the Vector of Knock, to 'up' or 'down' and to be able to Choose to Knock-Back with some powers.
And I frankly don't care what my future teammates think about that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
As a player who's primary was E/E Blaster which rarely (if ever) landed, I did on the very rare occasion encounter someone that was upset about all the KB I induced, but even then, it was dealt with and I never encountered anyone that raged about it or threatened to kick me out or leave the group I was in.
As for what makes "the best game you can make" (an ealier post of Brand X) ... I don't think I've played a "twitch" game, so I can't comment on it, but I will say that the axiom "Just because it's new and shiny, doesn't mean its better" is something I hope the Devs are paying keeping in mind. Many "New and Shiny" features I've seen in games since CoX don't impress me (Shoot, one or two of the "new and shiny" features in the later stages of CoX irritated me too, although I did get used to them).
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There are three things I see as reasons people don't like Knockback (rather than knock-up or knock-down, which WAS a separate type of secondary effect in CoX)
1) Melee vs. Ranged: If you're on a team and you're melee and a "knockbacker" is constantly blowing your opponent across the room, making you chase them, that can get irritating.
2) AoE: Anyone who's trying to gather opponents into a bubble for their AoE can get irritated if a knockbacker boots some of their targets out of the bubble.
3) Mob-growing: If you're in a heavily populated enemy area and you're constantly knocking your opponents into nearby spawns, things can get harry pretty quickly.
And while, if I understand you correctly, you'd like all powers with some kind of "knock" ability to have a choice between knockback, knock-up and knock-down, I don't really have a problem with that, since modular powers is something this game is apparently going to be built on.
But if someone shoots a ranged blast at someone and they get knocked up into the air instead of knocked away from the blast, while that's fine as a game mechanic, it's something that would distract me from immersing myself in the game.
Basically, whatever mechanics are behind powers and secondary effects, I would still prefer effects like knockback, knock-up and knock-down be based on the action of the power rather than a secondary effect chosen with no regard to that action.
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I played for probably 6 hours a day for several years. I didn't experience this at all.
I had all stormy-teams and mostly-stormy teams as well as teams with just one stormy, one energy blaster, one singularity/force fielder, several of all those things, sometimes none of those things. I never saw someone being kicked for kb, even when playing my stormy horribly, horribly, people put up with it until I learned and played better.
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/Segev
You were just lucky. Hurricane (or whatever it was called) has a -ToHit DeBuff.. so after the enemies got back on their feet and attacked, a number of them would Miss you, or others... so no Team Wipes, hence, not too many team mates got pissed at you. ;)
Side Note, I liked Lightning Storm from the Storm Summoning powerset when I used it... but I was very carefull where I cast it. I waited to cast it near the Walls out of the way of players that jumped in a large group to beat down baddies.
But when i played on my Scrapper/Brute, other Storm Summoning bastards were not as kind and would cast Lightning Storm Righ on TOP of the baddies in the middle, and I would spend 90% of the fight trying to Maneuver my camera to get a good view of what was happening. >:( KILL, KILL, KILL!
I dont think it would have helped if the visual effect of that power was translucent (maybe a little), but i'm guessing i would STILL try and maneuver my camera to avoid it anyways, even it was 30% transluscent. :P
Of course.
There are probably many things you seen and experienced and bugs and issue you may have came across that I never once seen...but doesn't meant it doesn't exist or happened. There is word of people playing people "tanking with blasters or people soloing GMS and some of the most powerful AVs in the game that I never personally seen done, but that doesn't mean no one ever did it simply because I never seen it.
I would amend this ever so slightly such that what is happening with the switch [i]isn't a change in vector angle[/i] ... *significant pause* ... but rather a [i][b]clamping[/b] of vector "length" so as to produce a Knockdown In Place[/i] result ON DEMAND ... *significant pause again* ... and is thus in no game mechanical way akin to "eliminating" Knockback entirely.
In City of Heroes terminology, the programming used by the Knockback Switch would basically be this:
IF (Knockback Mag > 0.75) THEN (Knockback Mag = 0.75)
IF (Knockup Mag > 0.75) THEN (Knockup Mag = 0.75)
[b]S[/b] imple.
[b]E[/b] asy.
[b]E[/b] ffective.
... not being done. :(
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Oversimplified. What you're actually asking for is:
IF (player.switches[KBDisable] AND Knockback Mag > 0.75) THEN (Knockback Mag = 0.75)
IF (player.switches[KBDisable] AND Knockup Mag > 0.75) THEN (Knockup Mag = 0.75)
What you're getting is:
IF (target.debuffs[KBDisable] AND Knockback Mag > 0.75) THEN (Knockback Mag = 0.75)
IF (target.debuffs[KBDisable] AND Knockup Mag > 0.75) THEN (Knockup Mag = 0.75)
Removes the switch, adds an aura that works essentially like punch-voke. Less keybind UI clutter, no need to blow a scarce key on it, KB disable happens where you need it, not just when, and usable by n00bs, too. Micromanagement not required. Better all around.
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This wasn't true in CoH, many melee sets depended on having badguys around them for defence, knocking them away was not good, ranged attacks were irrelevant.
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I wouldn't say many. More like a couple. And even then, once you hit 50 and used IOs (not even saying uber IOs here) this tended to be less of an issue.
Invincibility with SOs slotted at lvl 50 gave about 1.6% Defense buff standing against 1 opponent. With 7 opponents gathered around it was just north of 11%. This was the biggest jump I can recollect however 10% is a big number with regards to Defense. However if the Tanker in question was fighting solo his Defense would go down anyway as he defeated his opponents. This lead (for me at least) to fighting the Boss or Lt first while the rest of the spawn was still there, granting me extra defense.
Of course if we can come up with a different/better mechanic for this then it becomes a non-issue.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Speak for yourself. My dark/dark scrapper absolutely hated it when she ran low on HP and there were no convenient clusters of idiots to slurp HP from, because scattered or dead already.
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While leveling my Warshade, I ran into the problem of not being able to heal and get End from the foes I defeated because I was always put up against something that either exploded when defeated leaving no corpse (drones), or just vanished when defeated (ghosts)...leaving no corpse. And the Warshade needed corpses for that one power to work.
Most of my Scrappers and Tanks didn't have much of a problem with scattered foes though. What with the Black Wand and the Nemesis Staff Vet powers, I always had a ranged power to fall back on.
Rularuu were the WORST for that. Of the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Soldiers_of_Rularuu]Soldiers of Rularuu[/url], only the Brutes and the Natterlings would leave corpses. Wisps and Eyeballs all vanished, leaving no corpse behind. Made being a "necromonger" on Shard TFs rather difficult sometimes ... enough so that I was often GLAD to run across something else (anything else!) which left corpses. Heck, I even welcomed going up against Nemesis crunchies rather than putting up with no corpse Soldiers of Rularuu.
Shop.
Save.
Rularuu.
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Really? I was setup to only need one target on my Spines/Dark Scrapper, and that was a lot more END unfriendly than a Dark/Dark Scrapper.
Please reread. END was fine; it was HP I'd get into trouble with.
This also only really cropped up in large team, high-difficulty runs where we went fast. The healer, if any, was focused on the tank.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I know. Still got my Spines/Dark working with that heal on just one target.
Especially when you just laughed at END use and could hit it often.
One of my favorite toons was a storm summoning defender, and I got a lot of lip about kb. Fortunately, I was pretty invested in the game by that time, but had he been my first character I might well have walked away from COH because of others attitudes. I don't want that for cot. I don't want to set someone new to the game up with 3 powers, 2 of which they either can't use at all or can only use in some specific way dictated by another teammate.
I'd rather kb be in higher level powers only, so that through your lower levels you get acclimated to the game and have time to learn how it can best be used. Sure, players are going to gripe about something else you do, but kb sure seems to be a land mine to give someone right off the bat - especially when you want them to have a good experience and subscribe to the game.
I also wonder if powers shouldn't be basic - a thunderbolt that just hits a target and deals damage - but then could have a "special properties" slot you could earn and fill with knock down, knock back, stun, etc. so you could customize your powers a bit more. You could theoretically alter your build slightly based on your team composition, as well. Perhaps your running with ranged teammates, so you swap out your special properties slot to knock back, but then when you jump on a team with scrapers you load it with stun. If balancing is a concern, you could always have a mitigating property to it - stun, but +5 end, etc.
One of my LOL moments from CoH was playing with friend on a a claws/invul scrapper (below level 50, SKd up to my 50), he used shockwave and the badguys went flying away from him, stood up and vaped him from range as his defence evaporated.
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Yeah...I consider that a LOL moment.
As much as we keep saying that customization can't be balanced I keep coming around to the idea that it can if we do it right. Not a totally freeform build format but customization of powers.
Take Energy Blast. There's no simpler power in comics or one more widely used except maybe super strength. What if we started with just plain old Energy Blast for every Blast set? Each Blast would have one blank slot when chosen as well as one 'effect' slot. The effect would be free, chosen by the player during CC. So DoT, KB, Short Immob or whatever. The FX don't necessarily have to match so I can make a DoT Blast with green/black FX and call it Toxin where others might color it red and call it Fire. If the effects are balanced then all the Blast toons start on an even keel. Some sets might include several Blasts (like EB...duh) but some might only have 1-2.
The same thing can be done for basic AoE powers as well. That way the Devs don't have to invent every single power...the players can build them out of a toolbox. The powers can be slotted up just like before will Acc, dmg or whatever the player chooses. When you look at Mids, many of the different powers did basically the same thing. However the ATs made the numbers different which is why a Blaster AoE did more damage than a Defender AoE. Since we're using a modified AT system now can't we do the same thing?
During CC a player can choose a 'suggested' initial build (which will have further suggestions as the toon levels up) or ignore it and do their own thing. The Suggested Powers would have a brief blurb explaining why that power might be a good idea. That way even if the player takes something else they at least get a notion of 'an attack with a large AoE taken early on might not be a good idea because it tends to draw a lot of attention.' or whatever.
This can work for defense sets too and might help avoid the 'lvl 22 Tank with no Status protection' thing.
IMHO if we make the very early levels (1-10) very user-friendly then we can draw in more players. Experienced players can ignore the advice and do whatever. Hell even new players can ignore the advice so there's no cries of 'I'm locked into someone else's build!'.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
On Knockback: what if knocking foes back did collision damage? Would that help mitigate the negative way in which this comic book staple is viewed?
Granted, this is an MMO and not a movie, but a supers movie with no knockback feels much less super to me.
______________
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Not really.
I'm still inclined to believe that 90% of the beef that people have with knockback comes from powers such as Gale[color=red]*[/color], which tended to throw multiple enemies all over the place. Enemies taking damage when they're knocked into something could provide some versatility to KB powers, and could make for interesting tactics, but it could just as easily create the impression that this is a necessity (i.e. if you aren't knocking targets into something "you're doing it wrong"). There's also the issue of giving attacks two secondary effects.
[color=red]*[/color] Other than being ueber, about the only time people playing storm summoning tended to annoy me is when they used Gale on cooldown. Especially at the beginning of the fight.
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I wish super movies had less knockback in it or make it make sense. The bad guy go around murking people in quick order in a ruthless many all throughout the movie but get to the main guy all of a sudden he want to toy around and knock them into stuff all day. It's like movies use knock back as a total deus ex machina that makes the entire movie wit the villain showing how powerful they are moot. Now if the knock back was their modus of operandi, sure it would be cool. But then the "epic" fight, the main hero and the main villain meet and only thing they do is push each other around through things. It's become cliché and bit too predictable and boring to me. Like a rip off to the entire build up.
I remember when people used to ask those VS things. what would happen. Now I just answer if they make a movie, the battle while have potential to be epic wil end up with them merely pushing each other through walls the entire time.
Or they may change it up and instead of pushing each other through walls, it will be pushing each other through trees in a forest. :p
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