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And an ON/OFF switch still allows you to use it, instead of a switch to KD switch.
Could have KB always on, and various levels of resistance can turn it into KD or no knock at all.
I give up. At this point, pounding sand is a more worthwhile endeavor than trying to enlighten you.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."
And once again, you find a way to force Knockback to HAVE TO PAY ... nay ... [b]MUST PAY[/b] ... in order to be Team Friendly.
[b][url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Storm_Summoning.Gale]Gale[/url][/b]
100% chance to Knockback
10.386 Mag Knockback unenhanced
79 degree cone
50 foot radius
Guess how "welcome" Gale was in Teams. How often Players on Teams lauded and welcomed the use of Gale. How many times Gale users were exhorted to use Gale more often. In other words, your little theory has already been tested, in a real game, played by Live Players on Live Servers. Having Knockback be "always on" wasn't a panacea solution to the problem of [b]unwanted[/b] Knockback.
You still seem steadfastly resistant to understanding the fundamentally basic concept that Knockback is something that you want to have SOMETIMES ... rather than all the time ... and that the "sometimes" you do want it, you want to be able to control it, on demand, to make it happen, so that you can use it as a TOOL that allows Players to finesse situations, rather than be at the mercy of a Random Number Generator. The problem is that Knockback isn't *always wanted*. It can be nice to have, and when used well it can be devastatingly effective ... but then there are other times when you don't want it, and an enforced always "on" condition becomes a burden rather than a relief.
Now you're just being dense. The answer for "why not?" has already been answered multiple times. I even gave you the answer AGAIN, explicitly, in a single sentence, and the value of what I told you just bounced right off without leaving a trace of an imprint on the question you asked.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Sadly redlynne, enlightenment is not measured by how closely we hue to your opinion. We are not designing this game we are making suggestions to those that are. You are of course entitled to argue, strenuously if you wish, for your preferred design. I will do the same.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I just disagree with you. You have the soft control you chose when you picked the power. You're now given the ability to not use it. You shouldn't give them a second option. You give the player the option to use or not use their control ability.
KB was the control ability, not KD.
My frustration isn't over whether or not people hew to my opinion.
My frustration is over the fact that so many people believe that the "question" of whether Knockback is wanted can only be answered by a YES or a NO that must be pre-determined in advance (even going so far as to call for deciding this at the structural level of the game systems!). My belief is that the best answer to that "question" is [b]neither YES nor NO exclusively[/b] but rather ... MAYBE ... and preferably a MAYBE that can be [b]either YES or NO[/b] as needed or called for by the current conditions and situation, thereby empowering the Player and challenging them with the opportunity for Smart Gameplay in which the decisions the Player makes have immediate and demonstrable consequences if the answer to MAYBE is something that the Player can control on demand.
Kind of like flying. Is being airborne always a good thing in combat? The answer is neither exclusively YES or NO, but rather ... MAYBE ... depending on the situation and circumstances.
Is Knockback always a good thing to be doing in combat? The answer is neither exclusively YES or NO, but rather ... MAYBE ... depending on the situation and circumstances, which can change *rapidly* in combat.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[b][url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback]Knockback[/url][/b]
And I quote:
[list][*]For a character to be knocked back, the final magnitude must be above a certain threshold; [b]under that threshold will be turned into knockdown[/b]. The threshold is between 0.7437 and 0.8174, and is most likely 0.75.[/list]
Still firmly convinced you're just being needlessly dense, Brand X.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
You keep saying that we get the powers we 'pick', but we don't get to Choose whether to have Gale (for instance) or not. Gale is given to us. The only way to NOT have Gale is to not play Storm Summoning. It's not like we're Freeform, here.
Knock-down is an excellent control power.
Be Well!
Fireheart
*claps* You know CoH mechanics. That said, even if CoT uses CoH mechanics when it comes to KNOCKBACK.
Yes, the difference between Knockback and Knockdown was a number. However, they were still different. Knockdown was not knockback. Yes, if someone resisted Knockback just enough it turned to knockdown. There's still a difference.
And remember what it took to turn KD into KB...using enhancements and giving up valuable slots for other enhancements.
KD and KB are not the same thing just because they use the same mechanics.
@Redlynne: You're so blind with your own opinion that you can't even see that I -am- arguing your point for you... I just happen to -also- be arguing the point of those against the +keybind/toggle option. Why? because both have validity in their own right.
After reading through a good portion of the -other- kb thread, I can now see why you're blindly defending the +keybind option.... because it was originally your idea. Honestly, I don't think it's a bad one either, but it does need refinement... yet you denounce any claims to the contrary of it being perfect, hence we stand at an impasse.
That aside, Here is where we have an exceptionally different outlook:
And quite frankly, you're wrong. All evidence in the MMO game industry shows that if you give players the means, they will twist and contort it to suit themselves. Fully proven in things like "Gear Score" and "Combat Rating" in other games... hence:
This is PROVEN player mentality at work, rather than... like you said (both putting words in my mouth AND greatly exaggerating I might add)... "anything with a probability of happening greater than 0% must be treated as if that probability of happening is 100% in ALL cases, ALL circumstances, and is the default assumption at ALL times with NO EXCEPTIONS."
A general rule is to "assume the worst" from the player, and in this case you are introducing an option while ignoring proven "player mentality" by calling out a specific attribute and making it solely modifiable. You are offering means to encourage poor player mentality to grow. The fact of the matter is, being an MMO you really MUST treat things that relate to players abusing any system or mechanic as having a high probability. The fact that the devs don't trust US is further proof of that. And that's not exclusive to MWM, it's a widespread, common practice in MMO design.
After thinking it over, I'd like to see something that possibly covers a broader range of powers. Instead of focusing strictly and specifically on kb... (which calls attention to that sole attribute), why not broaden the range to include -all- secondary effects? That would at least detract the players attention and muddle the issue to where the concerns about causing ripples in the community would be far less likely.
What I want is to allow the option to control kb in a manner that doesn't say "hey, look at me everyone... I'm KB, and I can be DISABLED" ... I'd rather the option said "Hey, check ME out!.. I can modify ALL the secondary effects of your POWERS!"
Just throwing this out there as an idea, but if you decoupled secondary effects from powers (much like what's being done with power visual effects/animations) and allowed players to change between similar secondary effects "on the fly" (i.e. change KB to KD, -tohit to -perception)... both sides here could get what they want, and everyone gets more options.
You still have your +keybind... the difference would be that You could use that +keybind option on any power now, which also reduces focus on it being a potential -issue- with kb, and makes it more of an -option-. Rather have more mitigation on your fire blast? maybe you could change the DoT out for a Fear effect (because who wouldn't be afraid of being hit by a blast of fire?)
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
To be fair here, I'm convinced the main reason it went the enhancement route is because it was an add-on feature, and that was the most viable solution when faced with digging into unknown system code to produce an alternative.
That also doesn't necessarily make it a BAD option.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
Why shouldn't a player have the option to use it or not? the control ability that is which is in this case knock back?
That's how it was since day 1 of CoH, to turn KD into KB. You slotted in a Knockback Enhancement. At that time, they knew their code.
Yes. The control ability of which is knock BACK. Not knock DOWN.
Why I said a switch to turn on or off knock BACK. People are saying make it so they can TURN knock BACK into knock DOWN. Which I don't think should be the case.
Red tried to argue CoH mechanics, that Knock Back and Knock Down were the same. They used the same mechanic at different levels of strength, but they weren't the same, or else people wouldn't make a difference between knock BACK/DOWN/UP.
ACC and ACC Debuff used the same mechanic but in reverse. By Red's theory, they're the same. Can I have a switch to turn ACC Debuff's into ACC Buffs? :p
Shame that it took 8 years to do the reverse though...
@Brand X: Woops, I read KD into KB reversed... but either way, the option was there for both in the end... I was talking about the latter implementation of turning KB to KD, which was also done via enhancement.
Either way, clarifying that makes the notion that KB and KD are "not the same thing" at different levels of power, invalid. at least in the sense that it worked in CoH. As you said, from day 1, you would slot an enhancement to "increase the power of the knock" such to turn it from knockDOWN into knockBACK... a stronger version of the former. So why then, would it not be acceptable for a character to scale their KB backwards into KD again?
On the other hand, I DO agree with you that KD/KB are, in a way, different from KU... but at the same time, they are all a "push" value, and therefore similar.
Turning KB into KD is also perfectly viable from an RP stance (as well as a mechanics one), which I know you're fond of. It would allow you the in-character effect of having greater control over your powers, able to scale them from an effectively harsh "love tap" up to an extremely harsh "shove across the room" or even "shove through the wall, across the room".
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
I sincerely apologize if I have missed it (I confess that this thread has gotten to a point where I am mainly skimming it, so it is possible), but have you said why you think it makes more sense to be able to turn KB into not-KB than it does to turn KB into KD? Is it just your belief that KD is so different from KB (much as an ACC debuff effect is different from an ACC buff effect, to use the example you next gave) that no effect at all is more similar, or is there something more?
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Why not? as you just illustrated for me... enhancing a KD power with KB enhancements "increased the level of it's power" to make it KB.
You're argument here appears to be using the basis that "people perceive them differently" so therefore they -are- different. I can't get on board with that.
the reason people "make a difference" between them is solely because of the way they interact with mobs and other player abilities. knockBACK obviously being the least desired function in a team play setting due to the fact that it disrupts the "herd and burn" mentality... yet KB is (for the most part) loved more than any other form of knock in solo play (by those who use it), because it's a very effective form of "soft control" combined with the fact that the act of launching things over long distances and/or off cliffs and ledges is pure AWESOMESAUCE to many a player.
If you really want to discuss the differences between them, lets also introduce the -other- form of knock... knockTO:
knockBACK and KnockTO are polar opposites... one "pushes" and the other "pulls". functionally, they both fall under the "knock" category but they employ a completely opposite mechanic and therefore function -differently- (much like your example of accuracy and tohit debuff).
when you then take and compare knockBACK and knockDOWN, you get two powers that functionally also fall under the knock category, but also work identically... as in they both "push"... the only difference in this case is that they "push" at different levels of power.... one hard, and one soft if you will.
Similarly, you might compare fire blast and electric blast, both fall under the "damage" category. The difference here being, one does "fire" damage, and the other does "energy" damage, as such, fire blast and electric blast are different animals... they both do the same "type of thing (damage in this case) but they are functionally different in -how- they do it (much like knockback and knockto). On the other hand, if you compare fire blast and fire ball... they are effectively the same, at varying levels of power. Both use "fire" damage, one is obviously stronger than the other.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
just wondering, but with "knock to", I guess that intervening scenery can actually *stop* the mob from being moved all the way to the user.
Also, (as i said in another thread), knock-to is just "knockback from another direction (at least how people are putting it across).
*shrugs* Just call it a pulling ability (as in, you PULL the mob towards you), especially if the caster *Doesn't* move over to the mob to knock them *towards* themselves.
Hell, a well placed Bonfire could be called a "knock to" ability, because if you placed it just right, you could knock the mobs *towards* you
@Gangrel: Knock to (at least in every instance I've seen it) works the same as knock back more or less, with the exception that it moves your target in the opposite direction (hence my saying they work via opposite mechanics). I suppose if you really want to get technical, for all intents and purposes they do actually -function- the same... but only in the sense that driving a car forward and driving it in reverse function the same, while remaining different mechanically.
That's pretty much all it boils down to... as you said, a "pulling ability"... where as both KB and KD are just stronger and weaker aspects of "pushing ability".
Bonfire certainly could perform what appeared to be a "knock to" effect, but the reason for that is because it was implemented as a pet entity with "knock back". I see how that could be confusing perception-wise, but mechanically it was the same as say, the singularity pet from gravity control... which you could likewise "summon" at a location and have it knock foes toward you. CoH had no actual implementation of "knock to"
*EDIT: to answer your question.. to the best of my knowledge, yes.. if there were say, a chair in between you and the enemy, they would hit the chair and that's as far as they'd go. However, due to the way NPCs sometimes interact with objects in games.. you'll get the occasional instance where they go "through" the chair, or kind of "bounce" or "roll" around it... and come the full distance. Sort of like the way you could pop out from a corner in CoH, activate a power, and quickly duck behind the corner again.. letting the animation effectively "shoot through the wall" and hit the target.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
From my experience with the "knock to" (gah I *hate* this term), powers in other MMO's, they have a maximum range, and they will pull the mob so that they are *right* next to you (exceptions being that they *might* get caught on terrain, if you have to jump to get from A to B). Range has no overall effect on how far the mob gets pulled.
However, with the "knock back" mechanic from CoX, obstacles can and will stop the mob from getting close to you. So if you are on a different level to the target, would "knock to" still pull the mob all the way up, or would the mob just be bouncing against the wall?
Could the power be stopped by a well placed crate or wall (if you are using the ability at the top of stairs for example, and the stairs are in the way... would the mob "roll up" them?
Would you call Scorpions "Harpoon shot" move in the Mortal Kombat series of games be viewed as a "knock to" ability?
How about Batman, when he uses his Batarang to pull a mob towards him?
Also, how would "knock back" enhancements actually enhance this power?
This is why I am so dubious about it being "innovative". Because in CoX it could well be... but the only cases where I can see a superhero doing is this via ranged attacks.
I'm not exactly fond of the term myself. Perhaps just reference it as KT? even "pull" works for me.
Just to clarify something... I wasn't suggesting to make KT availble, I was simply using its availability as a similar function to note its difference from effects such as KB and KD, which are different strengths of the same thing.
That said, CO has an option on at least one of its KT abilities, that it pulls them so hard they have a chance to go flying past you, instead of stopping when they reach your character.
Whether it would actually pull a target up to a different level or bounce them against the wall, or even if it would allow you to use the power from a different level, would likely depend on how the effect was coded and how the game environment interacts with powers. If we're talking CoH, i'd assume it would basically function in the same manner as KB did where walls or other items were concerned.
As far as range having no overall effect, keep in mind that the power would need to have a 'usable range' in that, if a mob was outside your usable range, you wouldn't be able to activate the power in the first place. The same thing would happen with a blast attack, or even a lunge attack... if you want to get into those kinds of abilities.
Putting a range enhancement on a blast power would have the same effect as putting a range enhancement into a KT power, or even a ranged KB power like energy blast... it would increase the range you could attack from, not increase the effect of the KB/KT
Again, I believe that as far as allowing the power to be stopped by a well placed crate or wall would be dependant on the coding for the power itself and the game environment. Same goes for whether or not the mob would be able to "roll up" the stairs.
I would think of scorpions harpoon pull as a form of KT designed to suit the gameplay of that game, yes.
For some reason, I can't think of an instance where I saw batman pull a mob to him with the batarang, unless you're talking about where he throws it past them, making them think he missed... and then it comes back and knocks them in the back of the head, causing them to lunge forward. I suppose that could be considered as a form of KT as well. In fairness, I never did read any batman comics... I never got into DC characters as much as Marvel, Image, Dark Horse etc. so I'm not as familiar with their "moves" unless they were used in the movies (or even cartoons I suppose).
I also happen to be running on coffee and approximately 2 hours sleep a day for the past few days, so maybe that's skewed my memory a bit ;)
Since it would be a knock effect, in the context of CoH I suppose KB enhancements may be an option since it's technically a form of "knock", though i can't think of how they'd be beneficial to the power unless it was able to "pull past" the player.
I'm not sure I follow on the "innovative" thing, i don't believe I said that. KT isn't really something new, its been around for a while in single player games. A couple MMOs have seen fit to integrate KT powers as well. I recall reading somewhere that WoW added in a few KT powers at some point... at least one of which being an "AoE KT" that can pull multiple foes toward you. I found that a bit interesting.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
I'm gonna tackle this from a different angle.
Folks in the last game learned early on that the best xp/min was a herd and burn approach. The game was adjusted to make this MUCH less effective but the habit was set. We still see echoes of this in "aoe is king" threads even on these forums. If one assumes xp/min is the metric to determine what is desirable one can understand a dislike for uncontrolled kb.
Some folks don't focus on xp/min. They measure success by how super they feel. Measured by heroic(or villainous) feel ,knockback is teh awesomes.
In other places on this forum we have a decided push to make gameplay less static and more dynamic. I submit that it was only static in the last game if you CHOSE a static herd and burn approach. The tools were always there to play dynamically. For eg, I once suggested a team up of fire/storm and ill/storm trollers to my SG coalition. 40+ folks showed up and it turned into a full SG in its own right. We used careful team tactics to use Gale as a grouping tool to PREVENT scatter. A couple of the illusionists used hurricane+tp to prevent chaos. we used Bonfire to make kill zones, choke points, and to keep spawns in nado, LS.
KB was an awesome tool---that required positioning, and player mobility to leverage. Amusingly some of the loudest voices for removing or modifying kb, are just as loudly advocating making all/most encounters dynamic. Before we had a fairly static game that could be played in dynamic manner. The recent threads sound like we are requesting a dynamic game with tools to make it more static. I prefer the original approach since it is more forgiving for inexperienced or unskilled players.
Some may ask why I oppose built in mechanics to modify kb. Think of kb as an acquired taste. Few of us liked alcohol the first time we had a nip, but tastes mature and most come to enjoy it. Building in a kb modifier makes it more likely than many will set it as default and never acquire a taste. It also sends a message that "we built this control in, but it kinda sucks so we won't blame you if you never use it". If that is not the intent, many loud voices will insist that it is.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Because obviously, KB is not the stronger version in terms of control, KD is, or else people wouldn't complain about the better control. :p
And we go back to CoH, you had to give up something to enhance the secondary effect how you wanted to enhance it.
I think that using the term "knock to" is very bad, especially when you have "knock up's", "knock downs", "knock back" flying around. It does imply a *very* certain impression.
Lets just use a common catch all term that other games use: Pulling moves, especially if YOUR character doesn't move from its spot.
Spiderman, when he webs a criminal and then pulls the guy towards him (or then smashes him into the ground).
I think the problem here, is that when you use the term "knock to", the general impression of a *hard hit* into the target that knocks them into you (like knock back gives the impression of a powerful hit that knocks the mob *away* from you, or something immobile expanding to push the one away)).
Hell, you can use the term "gap closer", it would also cover abilities that move *YOU* quickly towards the mob as well.
Strangely enough though, CoX was fairly "light" on the gap closers for (you to the mob, or the mob to you), but they were present (TP Foe, Wormhole, Shield Charge), although they were limited to *annoyingly* 2 powersets, and a power pool overall.
*shrugs* Its arguing over terminology here, and just something that would grate my nerves until the end of time...
@Gangrel: The term "knock" is used to identify that particular mechanic, the 2nd part (BACK, DOWN, UP, TO) is used to identify what type of knock effect. I didn't create the terminology... so I'm fine with you calling it whatever you wish. Using the proper terms simply makes it less likely that folks will misunderstand.. especially in a pure text environment.
EX: using the term "pulling moves" may imply the act of "pulling", which is commonly the term used in the context of: "guys, that mob is too big for us to handle... try pulling that stragler over there"
I'm not particularly fond of the terminology either, but it is what it is :)
@Brand X: Oh, well that solves it then... people didn't complain about it so it was obviously superior. :p
You know... a funny notion just occured to me. The option to disable KB was -always- in the game, even before Overwhelming Force was added. The Irony is... you -needed- to be on a team to enable it.
Anyway, the devs have stated this won't be CoH2... and that the boost system isn't going to work exaclty the same as enhancements did. We don't know exactly -how- they're going to work, or what options they're going to bring. It's also been said elsewhere that there will be a limited number of global enhancement slots... assumingly earned while levelling up. If that's the case, then you wouldn't actually lose much of anything by slotting for the effect you want... if that's even determined to be a needed function to keep the "spirit" of the game.
put a single KB boost into a global slot, and you've instantly enhanced the KB of all your powers. Alternately you could put a single "turn KB to KD" boost in one and turn all your KB powers into KD.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
Strangely enough, it has only been on *this* forum where I have heard that terminology... Have never heard it on the WoW, RIFT, SWTOR etc forums out there. Only here.
How about calling it Sap Sucker? No?
People are wanting the version of soft control they think is better. Saddly, it's generally only in CoH I found people who get upset with KB. I'm sure there is some who hate it in CO, but I don't hear the complaints about it nearly as much as I did in CoH.
Really never heard any complaints about it in TOR.
Just wanted to chime in on one other thing.
I see the vigor with which we are arguing this particular issue as a very good sign of the investment in this game on the part of the community.
Agree or disagree we would not fight unless we cared.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I was one of the leaders of one of the largest SGs on the victory server. Our main rule was "be nice to one another and no forcing people on how to play your character".
Some one that was interested in joining the SG had to prove them selves on a few missions to see if they would nerd rage, have attitude issues, or have good social behaviors.
I have only had to deal with two instances where someone apply for the SG that had the wrong attitude, one made a comment about my PB and solar flare saying I should put more knock back into it so we can chase all of them down further away and kept at it until he was kicked from the team
Two, while on a team had one that decided to pick my charter apart as for as powers and costume, which didn't bother me, then went talking about what I looked like in Real life, I had a photo on coh faces, which did bother me, he got banned from the SG for a week.
In my opinion, we do not have the right to tell people how to play their characters, especially if it's the game mechanics that is doing the unwanted side effects, those that do can kick me, there is always other teams.
I rarely ever used gale. Just because I had to take a certain power, didn't mean I had to use it. unless it was an always-on power. Every single character in CoH had Brawl at level one. there was no way to not have it. I could safely say that it was not a widely use power. Despite the fact that it didn't use End and recharged quickly. I did hear stories about some (very few) people loading it up with procs and using it.
Simply in the interests of creating a clarifying terminology of semantics for use in discussions ...
All "knock" effects are essentially a Movement Vector involuntarily applied to a target (usually hostile).
This Movement Vector contains two components ... the "length" or size of the vector, and the angle/direction/bearing of the vector.
In City of Heroes, the size of the vector was defined by its Magnitude (it's Mag). The bigger the magnitude, the larger the vector, the greater the "knock" distance.
The only other variable used in City of Heroes was directional ... defined as being either Away From Caster (knockBACK) or as being Away From Gravity (knockUP).
KnockDOWN was essentially a case of "knock" being given a Magnitude of 0.75 or less, but it still used the exact same mechanics and rules systems as KnockBACK and KnockUP using a "constrained" amount of Magnitude (which, as noted could be enhanced to no longer create KnockDOWN as the Players perceived the effect).
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Scrapper_Melee.Martial_Arts.Dragons_Tail]Dragon's Tail[/url] in the Scrapper Martial Arts powerset created a KnockDOWN by using a 0.67 Mag KnockBACK.
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Pool.Flight.Air_Superiority]Air Superiority[/url] in the Flight Power Pool created a KnockDOWN by using a 0.75 Mag KnockUP.
It therefore seems to me that the most sensible thing to do when discussing these kinds of involuntary vector movements of Foes is to discuss them in terms of distance (ie. Magnitude of effect) and direction (ie. vector angle).
The most typical vector angles are going to be either Away From Caster or will be Towards Caster (ie. push or pull) ... or will be oriented Away From Gravity or will be Towards Gravity, since in any zone that is not experiencing [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_fall]Orbital Free Fall[/url] there will tend to be a sense of "down" that can be either worked against or with.
City of Heroes made use of two of these four vector directions ... Away from Caster as well as Away From Gravity ... and when the Magnitude of the vector was "small enough" (ie. 0.75 Mag or less) then the amount of movement was negligible enough to be considered "knockdown" by the Players, although the game engine itself made no such inherent distinctions.
It has been suggested that City of Titans include an additional possible vector of Towards Caster, and that Players be allowed to voluntarily (and on demand) "clamp" the Magnitude of the vectors on their "knock" powers to the equivalent of what City of Heroes would consider a 0.75 Mag result and no more (thereby resulting in "knockdowns" instead of greater Magnitude results and effects).
What I find most interesting is that there has yet to be a single reason given for why the game engine would be incapable of handling such additions ... in other words, there's never been a question as to whether or not these changes are "workable" from a game mechanical and programming standpoint. Indeed, the means and methods of doing these things are not only largely self-evident but also relatively "trivial" to do in terms of what is required.
Instead, what's gotten people up in arms (complete with pitchforks and torches) is the notion that the Playerbase and community at large might not accept these changes, or is so easily manipulated/controlled by a few "jerks" as to poison the well of the community for all, should such changes be introduced into City of Titans.
Just because something COULD happen doesn't mean it WILL happen everywhere for everyone if it is given even the smallest chance of occurring at all. Most major cities in the world with cars on their roads experiences at least one car accident per day (if not more), so the chances of getting into a wreck are not 0% when driving ... and yet most people driving on the road do not get involved in car accidents, so the chances of personally getting into a wreck each day are not 100%. Unfortunate accidents happen (daily!) ... but they don't happen to everyone, and there are people who can drive their entire (adult) lives and never wreck a car even once.
Just because driving on the highway can [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMagP52BWG8]become a demolition derby at any time[/url] (as so often happens in movies and other forms of pre-recorded entertainment), doesn't necessarily mean that it will.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The probability is low sure, but there is every chance you will become involved in an accident.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Yep, but limiting something because it *might* happen because other people are jerks... we might as well remove global chat.
You might as well remove other players *full stop* just because they might be a jerk at some point.
The problem is more based on what we saw of the CoH community. In the CoH community, there were enough players who were, well, mean, when it came to KB.
I never had the issue in TOR or TERA, but in CoH it was "OMGWTFGTFO!" for quite a few people, and plenty are worried about how it will happen again.
CO has KB, and while I've done quite a bit of PuG, I've only seen people upset with KB a couple of time, but nothing on the level that those who hated KB did in CoH.
Oh agreed. I have a feeling that people are opposing the "ability to self limit the knockback" because they feel that they WILL be forced to self limit it.
Personally, I like the ability to "self limit" knock back (without using Enhancements). As others have already shown, other abitlies tended to do the *same* base damage, just with a bonus secondary... so removing that 2ndary effect... would that make it more powerful or less powerful compared to other attacks?
Not sure who this "we" is as that was not my experience at all. I played with people who loved KB, would have slotted for MORE KB if they could and I would like to "ROFLCOPTER" with those people more.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Yep, you may as well for all the good it is on *most* games.
Stood in PE in Neverwinter for more than 2 minutes and not wanted to gouge your eyes out?
It's awful.
Disappointing lack of gm's in chat, something I hope CoT does differently, even if it meant making everyone on the forums a chat mod knowing how polarised some of our opinions are, I'm sure we can all agree on the behaviour we don't want to see and put a stop to it.
Bit harsh, give them one chance at least, then ban them.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
'We' didn't see as much of this as 'you' seem to have. I was asked three times in 5 years of play to tone down my KB and on one of those occasions it was deserved.
Again, please don't resort to vague claims that 'X number of players' did anything. It diminishes what might be a perfectly valid argument. A more valid question would be How many times did YOU YOURSELF get asked to turn down the kb or get kicked for using it?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I think that part of the problem with it, is how active the GM's are resolving other problems. It just becomes a number game here. You would have to have a total team *dedicated* to just reading the chat logs and also 100% understanding what was happening in said conversations.
Which is why generally speaking, chats are *generally* (not always) not actively moderated. For a *real time* moderation of chat, I have been told that ideally you would need 3 or 4 people per major active channel for each 8 hour shift, doing nothing else *apart* from watching chat go past. And then you have to make a decision fairly fast to mute/kick/ban the person (3 or 4 people required for the fast flowing channels, just to make sure that stuff doesn't get missed).
So depending on how fast the chat goes, it could be *very* person intensive.
Sure, if a GM is present and *paying attention* and see's something wrong, they can do something... otherwise it is a case of "waiting for the petition to come through". But then it takes longer for something to happen.
You might not necessarily see the person *there and then* vanish before your eyes, but who knows. You just have to make sure that enough people report the offending player.
Side note: I had to deal with a player who got banned in TR after just 3 days (or so) of playing the game after launch. As usual, there were the launch problems with the game (servers overloaded and so lag was present). The GM said something in chat, and a player just *ripped* into the GM telling him to do his job and fix the lag. Player was banned (as in full NCSoft account ban), within roughly 30 minutes for that action.
To be fair, over the life of TR, I tended to find the general server chat better behaved than a CoX chat (at least in my experience)...
Anyway, I do *not* expect a full team of GM's/support staff to be monitoring the chat, but I could well expect an active "profanity filter" on all non "private channels" (ie the channels that you are automatically signed up for when creating a new character).
Although that will annoy people from Scunthorpe...
The number of active debate topic in this one thread has officially exceeded my ability to multitask.
It would require three to four active posters to sort it out.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Did you even read the CoH forums complaining about it? As for me...wow...take count...hard to say, usually I was the one making teams and never really cared. Did it happen some times, yes, a lot, no, but again, I formed teams.
But using your example, herd and burn wasn't actually popular (and we know that's not true) because I didn't care about herding and burning. My preferred playstyle was to run group to group...herd and burn is boring, as you stand around waiting for a tank to gather everything so you can shoot off an AOE.
Same here./ And I get the feeling they'll still be debating this [i]post-launch.[/i]
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
the preferred style of the group I usually teamed with was to run from group to group as well. There wasn't any herding going on. Except for the few times that the Defender would pull a group or two to the rest of us while we were in the middle of dealing with the first group. I recall one mission where we had cleared an entire floor without ever moving out of the first room because the Defender was aggroing other groups and leading them to us. My Willpower Tank didn't have any problems with that.
We acknowledge the contentions surrounding knockback and are exploring multiple options. Please also understand that knockback and knockdown may be seperate functions which aren't linked to one another by magnitude a la CoH. This is also something we will be exploring. At this current moment we are not considering a universal toggle, switch, or setting to change power funtions like knockback-to-knockdown, but are considering alternatives to allowing player input to alter when / how said effects may occur. We have other options also being considered should input for effect alteration prove to be problematic in any number of ways.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks for the input Tannim. I'm sure you'll put that magic crow bar to work and figure something out... after all, crow bars are good at pulling things apart AND bashing them down XD.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
Yep...and I saw ten times as many threads about Market problems, Defenders and Blasters being sub-par and a whole list of other issues. Not saying it didn't hapen, just saying it might not have been the world-shattering issue you say it was.
So by your own admission it didn't happen a lot. Whether or not you led the team was immaterial. If you'd been leading a team and someone was complaining about KB you would have heard of it one way or the other.
Not really seeing your point here. I don't recall saying that herd and burn wasn't popular.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
The point is, you say one needs to use personal experience.
I saw many posts on the CoH forums complaining about getting kicked from teams for having KB, posts about people who use KB getting on someone's team, and people's suggestion to it was "find a new team"
You didn't say Head and Burn wasn't popular. You said "going by your play experience" in my play experience "Head and Burn wasn't popular" because I formed more teams than joined others, and that usually meant we went my way of playing...run group to group and beat them up. :p
If we were to go just by MY experience, then the whole herd and burn mentality which was prevalent (I think it started to die down near the end of CoH as things changed with the issues) never existed.
If we were to go by your EXPERIENCE (not what you read on the Forums but actual EXPERIENCE) then KB wasn't a big issue because someone who was open-minded was running the team. So based on that the issue isn't the people who run the characters with KB as much as the people who lead the teams. Why should we bend over backwards to fix a PERCEIVED problem rather than changing the perception?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
We shouldn't. Should leave KB in the attacks that are supposed to be KB.
If a player has an attack that does KD, do they get s switch to turn it into KB?
If a player has an attack that does KB why not have a switch that turns it into Knock To?
If a player has an attack that does KB, why not just have a switch that says okay, KB is off, you lose all the defense aspects of the power, but still do your damage. There's no reason the attack should do more damage. That's just players feeling they should get something if they take away something.
Can my Fire Blaster give up the added DoT and start KDing everyone when I need a little more breathing room, as the DOT isn't killing them fast enough, but the KD would save me from dying?
Sure, why not?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Actually, I had an idea regarding that very thing. I'll be posting it tomorrow after some more polish...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
If the base Power does Knockback, then yes.
If the base Power does Knockdown only, then no.
Come on, Brand X, this level of density is beneath your dignity to persist in.
Because Super Strength Haymakers don't "pull" your victims towards you perhaps?
Again ... you're just being argumentatively dense, Brand X, simply for the sake of being dense. Please stop it.
You've already been told why that's a dumb idea. The fact that you refuse to admit it is just further proof of your density. Persistence does not equate with brilliance.
[i]Why would you expect that to be an option?[/i]
Seriously, Brand X, this point is just a straw man argument. You're better than this.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Because you're suggesting the energy blast with that is powerful only knocks down instead of KBs when it's a KB themed power.
The way it should become KD instead of KB is if the enemy can resist it enough to do so.
And dense? Seriously? I'm being told "Teams didn't care if you had knock back, it really wasn't that big of a deal. Look at your own experience." Yet look at all the big push to turn KB into KD. There was obviously a big hate on for KB in CoH (I say in COH, because I haven't seen a hate for it in other MMOs) if people are this adamant about being able to tell someone on their team "Turn on you KB Toggle to turn it into KD"
Yes. Seriously. Further engagement with you on this topic has been rendered valueless.
Thank you for playing.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Please. You're trying to get something done your way, likely because you were one of the players having issues with other players and their KB use in CoH.
If you didn't have a problem with KB in CoH you wouldn't think the use of a toggle switch was needed.
Brand X is using exaggeration to make a point that you are either intentionally ignoring or is going right over your head.
I love knockback. Don't kill it off to cater to anti-social gamers.
Not all powers came with pure benefit. Sure knockback hurts ONE mechanic of teaming (round em and pound em) but it's not worth losing the mechanic for as there are PLENTY of teaming tactics that knockback is GREAT for.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Not to put to fine a point on it, but I think everyone has staked their claim, and argued with every line of reasoning they have. The devs have weighed in and told us what they could. Far as I can see we're down to ad nauseum repetition, and building bad blood.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Naaaah...we agree on other topics.
I think what we have here is a desire for a game and all we can do right now is post on this forum about it :p
Lot of truth to that I think.
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
What we have in this forum is 19 pages of Forum PvP lol...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
OMG! I participated in PvP?!?
*hands Twisted Toon his PvP medal, ribbon and handful of mud*
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
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