Um, I get a 404 error on the http link you provided. Just wanted to let you know. Still eagerly awaiting the project.

Thanks.

Well that is good to know. I was under the impression that the kickstarter was already approved and ready to go on the 8th of Sept. being reason why it was publically stated that was the date the kickstarter was supposed to go live. While back then when the date was being announced it would have been nice to have a word or disclaimer that the date was tentative based on actual approval.

The heads up is greatly appreciated though and clears some stuff up. Remember to be upfront with information especially public released information in the future though. I'm not mad disappointed or what not just saying kickstarter is already a risk and this being new group, there is already a battle to quell doubt and more doubt shouldn't be added with with holding of information that is important to the information being released like Sept 8 was a tentative date and not yet been approved. Sometimes people take that as a sign of what else are they withholding and what else that is important they are not saying and when kickstarter is done and when they communicate with the donators are they telling the whole story.

It probably was merely an oversight or words that accidentally got left out or didn't fit with the public statements and interviews. AKA, it happens. Look on the bright side if it is delayed that is more time to prep for an even better showing.

I was a 6 year subscriber and am eager to contribute to this kick starter. I was disappointed when I went to the kick starter website and city of heroes was no where to be found. What name should I be looking for?

Yeah, i mentioned it on the facebook page the other day, there is a project on Kickstarter that is named The Phoenix Project and is a video game from a group in Japan.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/0A6dk8x.gif[/img]

Agree that 9-8-2013 should have been labeled as tentative. These being tough times, confidence cannot be shaken. You guys are doing an amazing thing and I will contribute. I look forward to checking out the kickstarter. I pray and hope the best will come of this. Please continue to be accurate and upfront as we all came from this community.

Luscious wrote:

Well in theory you are sending the money to the studio, Missing Worlds, which is more than safe to assume has everything required of a bank, minumum and LLC.

Well sometimes even that isnt as safe as it sounds.

A friend of mine basically laid out how easy it would be to create faux projects and dissappear. I watched them actually create bank accounts using false names and social security numbers, and addresses, linked one to Amazon and did a transaction (using their own money though). Then few days later when the money hit the faux, closed the account. Although I'm not sure how legal it is to give false information to banking institutes, but given that it was tested with their own money and closed in short order, I doubt it will raise eyebrows but that goes to show in the time of a kcikstarter someone could in theory collect money and dissappear. And even if it was other's money, thye would be long gone laughing all the way to the bank before anyone catches on and given that a lot of time is expected for projects to come out, that could mean more than a few years before anyone even get wise with stall tactics of simple statements of "Still working on the project. Be patient. There will be delays." to buy them 3-9 more months. And it's nothing to create multiple Kickstarter project accounts. KS accounts with First backed seems to be common and thus they would blend right in with the population.

And to really shine them on, a fake profile with a fake website or temporary website and a few random fake pics to match the profiles are not hard to pull off although there is off chance the real person in the pic come across it but the disappearing act would still be easy.

There is risk.

But in Missing world case, they are a legit company out of Washington for profit, with a legit business number assigned. But not everyone know how or where to look for that stuff especially the mass amount of "garage" projects out there.

Luscious wrote:

And most of those people don't care, they prefer to take things at face value, plus a year long Facebook hoax, with two websites, kickstarter, interviews with game sites, the likely hood it's a giant scam is slim to none. I would hate live in a world of dispare and negativity..

yup of course it's slim chance but slim doesnt mean perfectly safe with no risk at all or something that cannont and will not happen or havent happened.

Well the interview said it will be released on the 8th. It's going on the 9th. How many people that may not even know of this site or the forum but seen the interview wondering "what happened?" Sometimes even the plan doesnt pan out and a stray monkey wrench cause delays.

Not to mention even some projects that are fully funded and seem legit never see the light of day some or rather most due to inexperience and unforseen things, and a few probably people getting away with it.

Most wars when in hindsight could have been won if the risk assessment was properly done. Even with suprerior numbers an overconfident army that wasnt prepared can fall. Whether that means not properly planning the supply route or misrationing of ammo or not carrying gear for inclimate weather.

...Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. :D

Patiently* waiting.

(*Actually impatient as hell and smashing things in RL to feel better, but you can hide anything on the Internet.)

Luscious wrote:

except for your google search history, that **** always comes back to bite you in the butt

I never use google anymore. They don't seem to give a rats butt a privacy and user information protection and collect more data than I'm comfortable with.

The reason why I always ask for direct links. Although that may or may not help but haven't figured out a way around that yet.

Luscious wrote:

the NSA is collecting everything, permission or not....

of course. Collecting information on everything besides stuff to prevent attacks. Conveniently they never see those coming.

Hahaha, warning heard.

Zombie Man wrote:

Hitting the brakes on the politics tangent!!

Except it's not politics... it ceased been politics a long time ago. A Police State has no politics, just the "Illusion" of politics ;-)

Now there's a Story Line in this if you look at it right... Civil War has already dealt with this, and the Mutant Registration Act... earily similar to what is going on irl at the moment...

We need an Off-Topic Thread Ideas For Story Arc Based on Real Life Sub Forum :)

Take it to the Chit Chat thread under the forum games section. and remember to keep it PG-13

Voltaire Ray wrote:

Wow, although there are risks involved in giving money to start up companies, I believe you are going out of your way to explain why they should not supply money to a startup. I for one believe that if I supply money for a company to on its feet to supply a product that I think I would like and lose I am not worse for it. If you or anyone have doubts about MWM then it would be best you do not supply money.
I, for one, do not feel that MWM is planning on anything other than what they stated from the beginning. Try to keep these on topic about a positive Kickstarter and possible ways to improve upon what they are offerng for the money supplied.

There isn't anywhere I said they shouldn't give money to a startup. The subject isn't about whether or not they should give or not, that is their decision they must make. And unlike you, I'm not trying to make that decision for them. Whether I give or not, is my choice not yours to make.

The subject is about the risks of kickstarter. There are risks and they are more common than what people say and try to down play. My very last statement was "do not give what will be missed." While you have money enough to not care what happens for it, unfortunately not everyone is as well off as you to have money to burn like that and while you don't care whether it works or not, some people rather DO care what happens to the money and whether or not they are putting in for a good cause.

And if people with doubts as you say shouldn't even think about giving, then they wouldn't need kickstarter to begin with as they already have backing of people that know them and what they are about. Apparently, the kickstarter is needed because the people you say that have "no doubts" and ready to throw money, must be mostly talking or else the project would have been funded long time ago.

It's a disservice to act like there isn't any risks to kickstarter and only focus on the good stuff, when unfortunately things happened that was not good. Not everyone is veteran kickstarter and not everyone know MWM and had drinks with them or trust that easily. If you do, that is fine. But I find it highly insulting to even insinuate that if someone have doubts they shouldn't give. Who the hell are you? If you are giving in anyone that have doubt stead, then by all means, say that. But what you do with your money is your business and what others do with theirs and information that ask for, or doubt they have or a little more conservative with their decisions is their business. Either way that decision is theirs and just like you probably rather want people to respect your decision and allow you to make that choice have the common decency and respect to allow others to make theirs without coming off a total wad because they have doubts as if MWM is some sort of unquestionable infallible God that everyone is supposed to immediately offer their life savings to.

You think kickstarter is perfectly safe, fine, but do not insult those that may not be so trusting. If the risks about kickstarter is not allowed, then trumping up the good thing like a fan boy should not be allowed either. Because trumping up the good side as if their is absolutely no risk or risk on the level of lottery grand prize winner is a bold face lie and there are documented incidents to prove that it's not always 100% kosher.The truth is should be allowed for both sides. Which is that kickstarter works, it's fine but their are risks and the potential to lose money which should be kept in mind as people give.

Jag8

Justice Blues wrote:

Jag8 wrote:
Justice Blues wrote:
Ellis wrote:
Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

There is a big difference between the risk of a project not succeeding and a scam. As of right now I have backed 184 projects on 3 different crowdfunding sites, 178 of them on Twitter. 163 of them were successfully funded, and I have received my promised rewards for 81 projects so far. There are 41 projects that are late with their rewards at this time, with 2 or 3 that I'm guessing won't be able to ever fulfill their rewards, and one that may or may not be a scam (But it someone else is stepping in to make things good on that one. Thanks Cryptozoic) In my experience, out right failures of projects are uncommon, and the threat of scams even more so. Not non-existent by any means, but certainly on the rare or ultra-rare level of drops.

Or you're just good at picking them given that the stat of kickstarters that fail is about 41% overall all projects and in gaming only about 34% succeed. or about 66% failure rate.

Yes, I am good at picking them. I don't just back everything I see that looks interesting (couldn't afford that anyway) and if it isn't someone I am familiar with I try and check out any references they give. I do sometimes back something for fun or because it sounds like a good cause. Almost always for $10 or $15 bucks and no reward. So far, all of those that have funded have followed through and did what they promised, which is somewhat surprising since the charity or non-profit stuff pulling in lots of low dollar amounts would be the easiest way to scam.
Jag8 wrote:
It's been stated that up 84% of projects don't even finish on time. This means basically your stats is either that you have a very good eye for projects or you're the one that is hitting purple drop luck.

While I have received a large percentage of rewards, that says nothing about when they were delivered. I didn't think to start keep track of that on my spreadsheet until I was over 80 or 90 projects backs. I do know that 3 or 4 were no rewards chosen, 1 was delivered within a week of the end of the Kickstarter, and the vast majority were overdue by weeks or months. I never expect on time delivery from Kickstarters, especially if they are wildly successful. The longest wait I have experienced to date is from Steve Jackson Games Ogre project. It was supposed to deliver in Nov 2012. The launch party is the end of this month, and they will start shipping them in October.
The reason I don't worry about delivery dates is because Life Happens. As in Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans. Expecting project creators to be immune to that is just down right silly. 3rd project I backed was a pro photographer getting a grant to live in the Badlands for several weeks and photographer it, he was only asking for $500 and got $1200 for traveling and food while he was there. Posted some very nice shots while he was there, then when he got back he discovered that his hard drive had failed. And his backup drive had failed. Everything was gone. With insurance money and help from a non-profit, he went back and did it again. Got a very nice print out of that project. Eventually. :)
Jag8 wrote:
And lastly, even canceled games and or scams are not rare as you make it seem. Another major one happened in July, along with a few others. It seems that most don't purposely scam people but simply run out of money. Even after being successfully funded on kickstarter. http://www.actiontrip.com/news/game-on-kickstarter-canceled-after-publisher-spends-all-funds/072613_5 (about "Doom on the Atlantic" or something). And other this year alone and these are just the most high profile ones. The Kobe Beef scam, Mythic (a near obvious fraud but still managed to raise $5,000).

Actually, it was "The Doom That Came to Atlantic City" which is the project I referenced in my post that may or may not be a scam. I thanked Cryptozoic because they are getting together with the game designers (Who were not associated with the Kickstarter other than licensing their game to that project creator.) and are going to publish the game. Then they are giving all the backers a free copy. Needless to say, they have generated enormous amounts of goodwill toward their company in the board game community.
Jag8 wrote:
The problem with spotting more subliminal scams is that it's easy to delay tactic especially with a video game. A dev. could say wait for years without many people getting wise because they expect games to take 2-4 years anyways.Then make up something about a delay or whatnot, add more time, then by the time anyone realize they been had, well all they can do is go post in a forum somewhere because by then the statute of limitations are probably up by now and trying to chase down a company that all but vamoosed 3-4 years after the fact make it harder and time consuming and expensive. Kickstarter is a gold mine for scammers. Kickstarter wont help, they get their cut and could care less after a game is funded, and not many people will bother suing over a $100 or so and that is assuming they can find them. A pledger ask questions too early they are being viewed as impatient. They wait too long to ask questions, they could be got token for a ride and wait around for years before realizing it. It's no win and very high risk for pledgers. They have no protection at all and the protection they can get will cost arm leg and ear and not worth over a few hundred dollars.
While most of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose but many more just lack of experience and running out of cash with nothing to say but "Well sorry, thanks for the cash."
If they wasn't high risk in the first place they could have gotten professional funding from other sources. Never give what will be missed.
The Susan Wilson incident, well they got accused of being a scam and it does look fishy but verdict is not out yet that I know of.
An to make clear, I'm not saying Kickstarter itself is a scam, but it's no more or less risky than some random stranger in person with a bright idea asking for money to fund his idea. Again, most are honest decent folk, but there are some out there that will tug at your heart with words then run off or more likely simply bungle it when the money is received. Many upstart business started in the traditional way end up failing. People starting on kickstarter is no different. A good idea doesn't always mean good business sense to actually pull it off.

First off, someone that is asking for money on Kickstarter may or may not be high risk. Even established companies are having problems getting loans from banks these days. There are a lot of reasons someone might want to fund through crowdsourcing. An independent artist who has a small fanbase and wants to do an album or EP, or a writer who wants to continue writing in a series, but their publisher wants something new. And small projects in things like board games are heading to Kickstarter because it is an easy way to see if there is an audience for that particular item.
I never said there were no scammers. And it is true that it is possible to set up scams on Kickstarter or the other crowdfunding sites. (Although I would argue that Kickstarter is the worst one to do it on. Better to pick IndiGoGo or one of the other sites that allows you to keep any money that is pledged, rather than having to reach your set goal to get any.) But the fact is, the vast majority of projects are not scams. Kickstarter has had 48,460 successfully backed projects. We know of what, 50? attempted scams. (Actually, I could find less than 2 dozen reported since 2011. But that number includes those famous scams Ouya and Pebble Watch.) 10 times that number of unknown, successful scams would be just over 1% of the total successful projects. Which is actually less than what I have encountered, assuming that the Doom creator was actually scamming and not just an idiot. There is a real risk of backing a scam project on Kickstarter. But frankly, it is so low, I don't consider it worth worrying about.
The much larger risk, which is the one that is most likely to occur with this project, is the failure of the creator to be able to follow through, despite their best efforts. There is no way to avoid this risk. It is inherent in the nature of crowdfunding. It is this risk you should be aware of, and take it into account when backing any project, for any amount of money. Is it a game you think looks like fun, who only wants $7,000? If it won't bother you to lose the $20 they want for a copy of the game, then go for it. Is an artist you like that has already more than funded their project, but you still want to support them and like that $2,000 reward? If you don't mind not getting what you pledged for, then again, go for it.
Just be aware that something may happen, and you might lose that $20, or that $2,000, and never receive anything. And most importantly, never pledge more than you can afford on any project.

I never said majority were scams. In fact I specifically said, that majority are decent honest people that isn't a scam and will deliver. or to quote myself with a little added emphasis on the key words that seemed to have been missed. "While MOST of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose BUT MANY MORE just lack of experience and running out of cash"

And just because you haven't encountered any scams or failed projects doesn't mean it hasn't happened and or others haven't ran into them. I never had a problem with my Jaguar, but it would be insulting to insinuate that since I never had issue with my Jaguar, then no one could in a possible manner have a problem with theirs. Which is what you are insinuating.

Overall we are saying the same thing. There are risks in kickstarter projects or any crowdfunding. It isn't a steel solid risk free venture. Some people had luck and never came a cross a scam while many other have, just those people of the Kobe beef thing. I think they had a couple of hundred people pledge. Thus that is at least a couple of hundred people that have came across a scam.

I'm saying it's more common than you think. More common than a rare purple drop. The ones that made the news are the ones that were the bigger cases. Just like majority of the projects that reach funding never hit the news. If ya was to only count what is reported to the news than the scam rate would be significantly higher.

If you read people review of the sight they mention many different projects where they never got the stuff delivered and or got message the project ran out of money and cant continue.

The chances of being struck by lightning is 1 : 280,000 is also about 1% yet, pools still close by regulation and not many people are itching to go play in a lightning storm, and the chance of being killed is even less. Yet the regulations and it's something keep in mind, although the risk is small, because it CAN happen and DOES happen. Although I think the rate of people losing donated money is higher than 1% but overall , the scam and or people KEYORD; AND OR- people that just cant complete the project is still there and it has happened enough where it's worth annotating instead of pretending it's impossible because some people never had it happen to them yet.

By that logic- I never been bit by a dog therefore anyone who said they have been bit is over exaggerating and it cannot happen, because I never been bit.

One thing I will say about Steve Jackson and the delay behind Ogre is that even though it *was* delayed (by roughly 11 months from the initial estimated date of November 2012), there have been 70 updates from the date of the kickstarter finishing up to right now.

That is roughly an update once a week on the Kickstarter page, on top of the other updates that they have given on their own website page for the game. Hell, even now they are still offering refunds to those who *want* refunds due to the delay in the kickstarter delivering on the goods.

Now, to me, that is going above and beyond the "call of duty" for it, but I am also sure that they took everything into consideration for it, and worked out that even over a year after the donations were given, that they could still afford to give refunds on the project.

*shrugs*

With Kickstarter *is* a risk, and as such, especially from the "unknown" groups and parties, should also be taken into account when judging if it was possible. If there are "big names" attached to the project, there is a greater (if not 100%) chance of it coming to fruition, but even then, those big names are not going to be immune to delays or what not. However, lack of communication with the kickstarter base *will* damage the "public view" of the group there in.

Me? All depends as to how well MWM have taken into consideration all of the comments and recommendations from Kickstarter.

For me, if Kickstarter had approved the project initially, I would have to say that it would have been very touch and go and would have, in my mind, gained very little traction, if any.

I found it annoying in that they (MWM) had mentioned in interviews that they had "researched heavily into other Kickstarters and knew how to go" (paraphrasing), and yet, submitted it *so late* that it missed out on their hyped date (remember, September 8th was the *GO GO GO* date for Kickstarter), and that even if it *had* been approved, there was still stuff that they wanted to put into it, and it wasn't even finished in time (yep, there was still stuff that they knew needed to go into it, but it wasn't even ready for the submission date, nor ready for the friday before the "due date").

Thankfully, Kickstarter DIDNT approve the project in the state that they had submitted it, so they have wisely taken the time to polish it up into the state that it *should* have been in in the first place (if not better)

However, has the damage already been done with the preview that they showed? Who knows? Maybe they can succeed with the kickstarter (I hope that they do), but I would warn them that it could well be an uphill struggle to win over those who had been put off by the low quality of the initial kickstarter.

I have already voiced a lot of my views with the team (one way or another), in terms of how they can improve their look, and also what I feel needs improvement on (and yes, thank you MWM peeps for suggesting that I volunteer... I have already told my reasons as to why for now I wont be).

Shadow Elusive wrote:

So why the negative interpretation?

Why the negative interpretation?

Because as an outsider and without the lines of communication that you personally have, I was getting one side of the story, and maybe in the way that the news was coming up, it seemed like they were running around like headless chickens, scrabbling at the last minute trying to get *something* ready for it.

I feel that they built themselves up a bit too much, were maybe a bit too cocky in the press interviews that they gave (although they did also state the difficulty of developing an MMO). They seemed to have given the impression of wanting to do better than big publishers, whilst also not making the same mistakes as other companies have made.

And yet, if anything, it appears that they made some very basic errors (at least from my point of view).
[list]
[*]They submitted the Kickstarter at the very last possible moment (later to be revealed at late Wednesday afternoon/evening), and were still hopeful to be able to launch with what they already had to hand.

Here is "what was missing from their initial kickstarter submission" (taken from one of their facebook posts).

[list]
[*]A video
[*]A few extra graphics
[*]The add-ons for the perks
[*]Two of their leaderships biographies
[/list]
That is all that they felt that they needed to add to the project... and yet they missed out on mentioning what on earth they *needed* the money for?

[*]They were initially very evasive as to WHY it was running late to go live, and as a result, some people were assuming that Kickstarter themselves were dragging their feet over approving the project. Although they were correct in saying that Kickstarter hadn't yet approved the project, given the fast turn around that Kickstarter normally has, it gave the impression to a few people (me included) that there was something else happening here.

Kickstarter themselves state that it usually takes 2-3 business days for approval, business days do not include the weekend, so if it wasn't approved by Saturday morning, it sure as hell wasn't going to be approved on Sunday. I would have thought that at least someone in the "head office" (using the term loosely here), would have put 2 and 2 together, and put the call out that it was going to be starting late.

[*] In the (now deleted facebook post), it came to light that the head of the Art Department had been off for the past few weeks due to illness. It had been mentioned in the Kickstarter that each department head had a deputy to step up to the plate, and yet, the Art lead mentioned that they had been working right up to the friday night, and they themselves were not even aware of the Kickstarter preview going live... if they had been aware, they would have pulled an all nighter before hand to get more stuff ready.

The Art Lead has my sympathies for them being ill during a time where pressure and stress is (for them) at an all time high.

So why on earth hadn't the Art 2nd in Command stepped up to the plate and pulled out all the stops?

[*]Above all else, I think that they should take their time, and only confirm/date stuff once they know that they can hit it. When they announced the initial kickstarter date, I was under the impression that it just needed a bit of spit and polish (which 6 weeks should be MORE than enough time to do) and were pretty much good to go. Granted, I have not been following Kickstarter projects, so I don't know if it is the norm to announce so far in advance a date for kicktarter, when they were so (in my mind at least) unprepared, and didn't have much to hand to even when the date loomed closer and closer.

eg [url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mendheim/mutant-football-league]Mutant Football League[/url]: I can find NO notice of them pre-announcing their kickstarter with my google search skills. However, once it went live, lots of mentions of it.

[url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo]Pathfinder Online[/url]. Well they cheated a little bit, by doing a [url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo]tech demo[/url] as an initial tech demo. However, they never mentioned nor spoke up about the kickstarter before hand (at least according to their website). They did however have news about the MMO rights being sorted out back in November 2011, but were quiet in the run up to the kickstarter.

[/list]

Quote:

Doctor Tyche has expressed a lot of satisfaction with the results of the delay, btw.

And I should hope so as well, because what was submitted was (in my mind) very low quality compared to some other kickstarters that I have seen, even when you compare it to indie titles (and other small group projects).

As I said, I am *glad* that it wasn't approved for launch when it was meant to, because it has given them time to polish it up.

I think that more than anything else, their major problem has been as to how they have communicated stuff through to us. Considering how badly some "big name companies" have been in terms of communication, it should have been something easier to achieve.

Notice how badly "big name companies" get treated for their lack of openness when they release news, especially if it is something bad. In a time where transparency is requested on a regular basis, they (MWM) have given the impression that this was something that they could skimp on (or ignore).

Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.

These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

Sure, there is some information that should never be shared (normally for legal reasons, although you can normally mention "due to legal reasons... "), but if there is a reason for anything, get down to the root of it, and tell us as to why. If it hadn't been for me asking over on facebook group, would we (as a collective) have actually known that the kickstarter was delayed due to how late they actually submitted the project, and not due to (in some peoples eyes) Kickstarter dragging their feet?

Some people out there *waves over at the Titan Network* might have a negative view of me, I know that I caused some friction over there. Maybe for the right reasons, maybe for the wrong reasons... but for the people that know me, if I didn't care about something, I wouldn't talk about it, I would just let it sit by the wayside.

The fact that even now, a year down the line since the closure announcement, I am still following TPP, maybe not avidly, but I do like to stay up to date with the comings and goings, and I do read the Titan Network regularly (in my mind, some people over there DO need help with their anger problems towards a certain company).

Oh, and I am also going to call a spade a spade. I will be honest and I rarely try to sugar coat anything.

I feel that I try to give honest constructive criticism about failings, but when I give support/praise, then I feel that they have earnt it.

Gangrel/cmgangrel (and chances, you have seen some of my comments on the MWM facebook group)

yeah. Basically this.

Mantic wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.
These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

There is a balance to be struck, especially with Kickstarter. We don't want to encourage excuse after excuse after excuse, because that moves from "transparent" to "unprofessional" quickly. Just as constant reminders that work is being done by amateurs or that their time is divided between this and real jobs can only cause a loss of confidence.

Agreed on this one, there is a balance to be struck, but I was thinking generally speaking along the lines of "I know we told you that it would be ready by X/Y/Z, but due to A/B/C it has been delayed". As long as its honest, I am sure that most people will accept it.

Quote:

I'm not really wanting to tell MWM how they should manage their project, but I believe it is probably even a mistake to try to account for the specific use of Kickstarter funds. It should be none of our business how the money is managed, barring some sort of itemized list of projected expenses can be provided in advance: for example, if MWM will be subcontracting specific production from an agency with their own clear bid, or the specific cost of licensing code access to the Unreal Engine (don't expect them to be able to proceed with a $99 UDK license because the networking code, at least, will need to be modified or replaced). Give backers an impression that we control what is done with the money, and MWM will wind up crippled by demands and criticism over every spending decision.
As backers, we need to be able to trust the company to manage that for themselves.

I wasn't going to be asking for an itemized billing section, but at least giving us an idea as to what the money would be spent on, if any out sourcing of assets would happen, payment for setting up the company... that general level of stuff (and yes, I have seen a kickstarter actually state that they would be using some of the funds to set up a company for the project).

I don't need the itemization to be to a degree of

1 x Windows 8 license
10 x site license for Maya
10 x site license for UDK (or what not)
300 x balloons for party

However, saying it along the lines of "upgrading our UDK license so we can achieve what we need better buy being able to modify more of the code sections, buying licenses for better software/streamlining of workflow for artists/3d modelers" etc, that is the "high level" idea that I think that most people would be ok with.

However, if its "300K for software we need", that is possibly a bit too low on the detail level (in my mind at least). Because people will just suffer the "sticker shock" of seeing such a high value.

*shrugs* each to their own,

Gangrel wrote:

Mantic wrote:
Gangrel wrote:
Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.
These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

There is a balance to be struck, especially with Kickstarter. We don't want to encourage excuse after excuse after excuse, because that moves from "transparent" to "unprofessional" quickly. Just as constant reminders that work is being done by amateurs or that their time is divided between this and real jobs can only cause a loss of confidence.

Agreed on this one, there is a balance to be struck, but I was thinking generally speaking along the lines of "I know we told you that it would be ready by X/Y/Z, but due to A/B/C it has been delayed". As long as its honest, I am sure that most people will accept it.
Quote:
I'm not really wanting to tell MWM how they should manage their project, but I believe it is probably even a mistake to try to account for the specific use of Kickstarter funds. It should be none of our business how the money is managed, barring some sort of itemized list of projected expenses can be provided in advance: for example, if MWM will be subcontracting specific production from an agency with their own clear bid, or the specific cost of licensing code access to the Unreal Engine (don't expect them to be able to proceed with a $99 UDK license because the networking code, at least, will need to be modified or replaced). Give backers an impression that we control what is done with the money, and MWM will wind up crippled by demands and criticism over every spending decision.
As backers, we need to be able to trust the company to manage that for themselves.

I wasn't going to be asking for an itemized billing section, but at least giving us an idea as to what the money would be spent on, if any out sourcing of assets would happen, payment for setting up the company... that general level of stuff (and yes, I have seen a kickstarter actually state that they would be using some of the funds to set up a company for the project).
I don't need the itemization to be to a degree of
1 x Windows 8 license
10 x site license for Maya
10 x site license for UDK (or what not)
300 x balloons for party
However, saying it along the lines of "upgrading our UDK license so we can achieve what we need better buy being able to modify more of the code sections, buying licenses for better software/streamlining of workflow for artists/3d modelers" etc, that is the "high level" idea that I think that most people would be ok with.
However, if its "300K for software we need", that is possibly a bit too low on the detail level (in my mind at least). Because people will just suffer the "sticker shock" of seeing such a high value.
*shrugs* each to their own,

I was going to say something along these lines but looks like you covered it.
Delays happen, yes. Most people understand delays happens, indeed. The key is understanding that "hey, we planned on this and that but the plan went bork because that and this happened" keeps the confidence. Instead of remaining silence until people starter asking and prodding a few days to weeks later "Hey, wasnt this and that supposed to happen?" or "Hey what happened? and get reply, yet again, "Well we are volunteers working between day jobs and wait." That dont instill or help confidence and can degrade confidence.

And sometimes these small companies forget that the people that they ask for money from come from all walks of life. Some, know how small businesses work, many are kickstarter vets, some know legal, some know about deadlines, some know office politics, some know about investing, some knwo finances, some know programming ,some know about game building and maybe built a few themselves, some know about management, some know about working with volunteers, some know about red tape in businesses, some know PR, some know press, some know about customer relations, some even know a bit about the importance of image of companies and word of mouth, some know working in complaint sections, some may even be speech writers for big CEOs that have to make a press release because the product is killing people or not working as intended, some may even know about prepping for congressional hearings. Meaning, not all customers donors prospective consumers are dumber than a bag of rocks and most dont take kindly when their intelligence is taken as a joke and treated as if they are merely sheep that should accept any old seemingly half baked answers without question. (no offense to DeathSheepFromHell).

So to some, relying on the excuse of volunteers dont fly because whether they realize it or not, they are not the firts and probably wont be the last entity that worked with majority volunteers, and most STILL get stuff done on time and take responsibility when stuff goes awry and those people and some probably will see the excuse of "well we are volunteers" as a lame cop out and question, how dedicated are they on seeing this thing through especially when they formed and present themselves asa company, for profit for that matter according to Washington state records. While on the other hand, since they are a company, volunteer or not, people will naturally expect them to act like a professional company. Do some professional companies have no clue to what they are doing at times? Of course. And usually they catch massive flack when it shows and MWM is no different nor immune to that reaction no matter how in high regards they hold themsleves as the exception. The problem and issue is not because stuff goes awry. Soemtimes it cant be help but how the company respond and what they do to try and make sure it dont happen or correct the mistake is the difference between happy customers that love them and people saying, "that company is borked." There is no such thing asa perfect company. Even Paragon Studios had plenty of "WTF just happened moments!' But they handled most of those moments with "look guys this is what happened." and with grace WITHOUT people having to dig for in burid in some reply to some poster on Facebook or pull proverbial teeth to get an honest answer. And people loved them for it mostly. They not only gained confidence that they had interest in the customers but they also gained the repsect of the customers. Respect is something that ussualy cant be boguht with an " We are holier than thou and how dare thou question us? Thou shall not question the gods for this is a gift from the god and you peons should be greatful to be in the presence of greatness and be satified with anything we give you!" attitude.

Most corporation have "volunteers" called interns. Would it be a confidence builder if everytime something goes wrong, they say "well the interns dont work here full time and have to work between their other job and here." Most charities work by volunteers and would it instill confidence if they said the reason the donations are not being used correctly or released to the needy is because the amount of volunteers? In a nutshell, it's does not show much appreciation for the work of volunteers internally to constantly throw them under the bus everytime there is a delay, even if the person doing the throwing is in the volunteer group.

1 eye archer wrote:

I think we can all agree that we want this to be successful. It should also be understandable that many people worry when they are only getting speculation & comments thrown around in the forums. There has been a rather long amount of time since the planned day of the kick starter then the update of things being corrected to today. People would just like to know what is the current status. Reasons for delays are MUCH MUCH better then silence.

I heartily agree. This is starting to remind me of the IT department at work - they don't like to say anything to our users about problems until they have a solution ready. This means utter silence about problems the users are having while the problem is being diagnosed, researched, a fix developed, etc. Unfortunately, from the user perspecitive the same thing happens when the IT department is ignoring a problem - utter silence..

Just as a slightly linked (as in its to do with a Kickstarter project that funded, but has hit problems), its worthwhile for the dev team to look at [url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang/posts/604023]Clang by Neil Stephenson[/url] and the problems that it has had to combat recently.

Good words I feel that should be taken into consideration, from ALL sides. Sure, his project is not dead, but it is going far far slower than expected (running out of cash being the main reason really). At least they managed to get a demo of the game ready back in April (which was the last update previous to the one that came yesterday).