It's a great news! gg

And there was much rejoicing. (yea!)

[img]https://i.imgur.com/HHedSfA.gif[/img]

Well done! It's good to be 'this' much closer.

This is exciting news. Good work to everyone working so diligently to bring this epic to fruition.

Quote:

Technicality maybe but Dresser sound much like a system rather than "just" an interface. Otherwise you are correct in that Dresser is what actually "generates" the characters in the world, both PC and NPC.

On a more general note, this is exciting since it shows progress towards [i]Second Chance[/i]. ;p

The prospect of Second Chance backing is what really has me excited too. I regret that I didn't know about it when it happened (and probably couldn't have donated to begin with), but now, take my money!!

See now even I thought Dresser was a UE thing :p

[img]http://www.warehouse23.com/spree/products/579/large/NB3001.jpg[/img]

Grimfox wrote:

Is Dresser local or something that is running on the server? Is dresser responsible for all the characters on screen or just yours? Curious because I remember early in the development where there was some work described that would increase the rate at which character loading could occur, or something a long the lines. Is Dresser the evolution of that? The data that flows between AB and Dresser, is that where our saved costumes would come from? Or would the link be a discrete output from the AB?

Is there are plan to monetize these elements in the UE store to act as a source of income? I could see these sorts of backend type things being useful for others building games. If they are flexible enough. Or is the hyper modularity just the MWM design philosophy? If so what benefit did you see in separating these two elements in the way that you did? Was there an eye towards allowing users to swap out the AB for a user modded AB that wouldn't turn all the characters created by the mod into spaghetti monsters?

I've been given an inch, I'm trying to take a mile!

Dresser is a component (think of it like a plug in) that attaches to a character (PCs, AI...) so yes Dresser will be responsible for ALL characters that you see, but the thing is each character has their own dresser attached to them - it's not like there's only one Dresser and it has to dress the entire world - if there are 1000 characters in the world then there will be 1000 Dressers - make sense?

I haven't heard of any plans to put this in the Marketplace as a component that other games could use - but to be honest I am hoping it's not ;) it's pretty complicated and I think tech support for it would consume my time - and I need to be working on things for the game instead of doing tech support :)

It's safe to say that AB is now mostly UI, and will technically just generate your saved character files (this includes the spandex, costume pieces, morphs, etc..) - and it will also have a character (with Dresser) that will immediately be applying the saved costume every time so you can see your choices - again I hope that makes sense :) so data flow between AB and Dresser is basically using the saved files (although they might not technically be saved yet, right?) but this way there are many options for generating character costumes and applying them and each part has their own job to do without being concerned with the other parts... Dresser doesn't care where it gets it's costume files from so I believe there's a lot of opportunity and flexibility there to create other forms of an AB

Hope that answers most of your questions - if not feel free to keep asking - I'll answer what I can :)

Grimfox wrote:

...snip... Or is the hyper modularity just the MWM design philosophy? If so what benefit did you see in separating these two elements in the way that you did? ...snip...

It's a basic programming paradigm, not strictly game related nor a result of MWM's design philosphy. Any functionality that you intend to use in more than one place is to be broken out into its own function/method/component/module (whatever you want to call it) so that you don't have duplicate code and thus only have one place to maintain it at.

The functionality in this specific regard is the act of displaying a character according to a "recipe".

Zerohour wrote:

*yawn*

Another “milestone” that doesn’t show us any actual progress.

Wanna see the Dresser code blocks?

Well done. I can't wait to start making toons.

Another thing to bare in mind is that this is still a one shot update. The whole mentality of "No pictures = No sign(s) of progress" is absolutely foolish, especially given that in the instances that pictures are ever provided, people immediately hop on how "unfinished/unpolished" something is or looks. Updates like this are definitely reassuring. With it coming on a whole year later since the Fall 2018 fiasco, updates such as this one are (perhaps) just enough to hope that maybe, just maybe, we might be coming on to something real Soon™.

We’ve been told for ages that x piece now works with y piece and it’s exciting and one step closer. I’m not falling for it anymore. I’m not letting myself get excited and then told that something fell apart and has to be rebuilt.

DesViper wrote:

malonkey1 wrote:

Zerohour wrote:

We’ve been told for ages that x piece now works with y piece and it’s exciting and one step closer. I’m not falling for it anymore. I’m not letting myself get excited and then told that something fell apart and has to be rebuilt.

Then why are you still here?

If you aren't actually interested anymore, then why did you come back here? I genuinely want to understand what it was you were trying to get across by coming here and complaining because a brief announcement that this game's development is making progress in a way that isn't easily presentable because it involves entirely internal element wasn't important enough for you.

Software development is long, slow and boring, with lots of little moving bits that the users will probably never see and (if all is working well) will never have to worry about. And that goes double, possible triple for game development. Games aren't like movies or TV, where they just have to make each piece work once, or just a few times, then edit together the takes where it worked. Game development requires the product to work (ideally) every time, and can't just stitch together a few good takes into a complete product. You can't expect every single update, or even [i]most[/i] updates to be as interesting to you as you want, and with how long it takes to develop a video game, especially an MMO, and especially an MMO with an all-volunteer dev team, the updates are generally going to be more "meh" than not.

Additionally, The amount of transparency we have been getting from the team is about as good as any reasonable person could ask for without asking for them to release the source code and all their internal records. The number of MMO developers and studios that have been as open as the MWM devs in regards to their development process can be counted on your hands and toes. To continue comparing it to other media, it'd be like if Marvel Studios decided to release weekly photos of their costume and cgi work on the next Avengers movie, long before it even touched theaters.

THANK YOU :)

He's not wrong. And that doesn't mean he doesn't care or isn't interested anymore about the game.

If you aren't bowing down and giving praise, expect a slap on the wrist. That's how these people work around here.

Brutum wrote:

If you aren't bowing down and giving praise, expect a slap on the wrist. That's how these people work around here.

While I could care less if someone is happy or sad about an update to the game you can't be surprised when negativity begets negativity while positivity begets positivity, it's basic human nature.

There is an old quote about making sausage that comes to mind.

Okay, sorry for the delay on responding. Looks like I have a couple of things to address *cracks knuckles*

malonkey1 wrote:

Then why are you still here?

If you aren't actually interested anymore, then why did you come back here? I genuinely want to understand what it was you were trying to get across by coming here and complaining because a brief announcement that this game's development is making progress in a way that isn't easily presentable because it involves entirely internal element wasn't important enough for you.

I am still here because I don't swallow every pill I'm given, and neither should you. I have made investments in this game. I have been here since 2013. My wife was barely pregnant when I donated to this project, and now that child is 5 and a half. And except for a few videos, we are no closer to seeing this game than we were back then. [i]Think about that.[/i] I am [u]not[/u] one of the backers who praises every "announcement" that gets posted. My most of my leeway ran out the first time the promised date for the chargen came and went, and the few drops that remained evaporated after the fiasco at the end of last year when we were all severely disappointed again. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

I'm completely over giving the team the benefit of the doubt when we have nothing - let me repeat that - [i]nothing[/i] to show for almost 6 years of development. There have been aforementioned videos, and lots of screenshots, but not once yet have I been completely impressed by what I've seen. And so, I feel it necessary to be my own person and speak my mind. Do you think that constantly praising them and forgiving all of their blunders is really helping anyone after all this time? I do not.

malonkey1 wrote:

Software development is long, slow and boring, with lots of little moving bits that the users will probably never see and (if all is working well) will never have to worry about. And that goes double, possible triple for game development. Games aren't like movies or TV, where they just have to make each piece work once, or just a few times, then edit together the takes where it worked. Game development requires the product to work (ideally) every time, and can't just stitch together a few good takes into a complete product. You can't expect every single update, or even [i]most[/i] updates to be as interesting to you as you want, and with how long it takes to develop a video game, especially an MMO, and especially an MMO with an all-volunteer dev team, the updates are generally going to be more "meh" than not.

You know what? I'm so tired of every other forum poster here thinking they're experts on game development. We don't need to hear these excuses time and time again about how long it takes, or the resources involved, or the things going on behind the curtain that we aren't aware of. I don't need a run down of what you *think* you know about the subject. There are games and game companies that have succeeded in far [i]more[/i], with far [i]less[/i] than MWM has. We have [u]nothing[/u] that has been promised so far. How much more are you willing to forgive? Whatever momentum they once had is long gone, especially now that City of Heroes has returned.

malonkey1 wrote:

Additionally, The amount of transparency we have been getting from the team is about as good as any reasonable person could ask for without asking for them to release the source code and all their internal records. The number of MMO developers and studios that have been as open as the MWM devs in regards to their development process can be counted on your hands and toes. To continue comparing it to other media, it'd be like if Marvel Studios decided to release weekly photos of their costume and cgi work on the next Avengers movie, long before it even touched theaters.

You're making it sound like they're doing [i]us[/i] the favor. Keep in mind, we're the backers. We are the ones that have made this possible. We are the ones they need to be held accountable to. This transparency you hold in such high regard is [b]owed[/b] to us. Not the other way around. Without us as a collective, they've got nothing to stand on. When it comes time for the "second chance" kickstarter opportunity, how well do you think it's going to go if the people who have been originally following it and backing it aren't happy? This is not Bioware. This is not Rockstar Games. This is not Marvel Studios. Rather, its a group of people who took on a task knowing full well what they were getting themselves into. At this point, I don't care if its volunteer or not.

ThunderCAP wrote:

He is in part. He is evidently one of those peoples that needs to be lied to or prefers to ignore data instead of accepting reality. Proof of that: the fact that something may fall apart and need to be rebuilt, which is very common in development since you're not just building a wall in your garden, we're talking about hundreds of things to put together here. TripleA games do that all the time and the majority of us know that (news on news about non-easy developments, years and years of work thrown rebuilding things etc.).

You've got it completely wrong, friend. It is, in fact, the very reason that I'm [i]not[/i] ignoring data or needing to be lied to that leads me to my current state of opinion. Trying to single me out as some unlearned outlier ([i]"TripleA games do that all the time and the majority of us know that"[/i]) isn't helping your argument. How many times must something fall apart or be rebuilt and [u]kept hidden from the people that are financing you[/u], and over how long, before its not acceptable anymore? They've had more than enough time to figure out additional means of funding to pick up the slack. And sorry, but some silly novel about the expanded universe of a game that doesn't exist yet, isn't it.

ThunderCAP wrote:

I find it obvious but he would have been better by not knowing those events, even when a few are close to inevitable. There are other sides where you can accuse the devs of being unprofessional, but not the "rebuilding" part.
What he may accomplish with his rant is simply to communicate to devs that "I don't want you to tell me anymore that something fell apart and needs to be rebuilt", this is counterproductive for himself (info is power) but he doesn't understand it or care.

Look at you, making all these assumptions about me. I do want to know about progress. I do want to know when something goes wrong. They make these announcements as if I'm supposed to be impressed. It's all words. These "breakthroughs" they keep making, conveniently, are never tangible. We don't even know what a single power set looks like yet. But hooray, the Avatar Builder has been rebuilt (yet again). Something called "Dresser" is involved. Is this a proprietary piece of software or a part of the Unreal engine that they're just utilizing? How is the average person supposed to get anything out of this? And - "[i]...succeeded in getting Dresser to work in the new, [b][u]rebuilt[/u][/b], ready to be extended and distributed environment...[/i]" Wait so the game environment has been rebuilt? When did this happen?

I could keep quoting your post, ThunderCAP, but it strikes me as rather condescending and obtuse. You're trying to paint my words with a color of narrative that fits in with your own little idea of what you think you know. But I'll make something clear for you, so you don't have to rely on your own misguided intuitions. We are well past the point of laughing about mistakes the developers have made. We are well past the point of shrugging our shoulders and saying "Well, at least they're trying." They've made promises and haven't kept them. And then they post these random "updates" that some people just keep ingesting, and they mean very little to a lay person like myself. I remember a couple of years ago they hit another one of these milestones and let us all know that we'd be getting more videos, more music samples, more power sets and their graphics, you name it. That the updates would start coming fast and heavy and that things would start happening at a more steady pace. Again, this was at least 2 years ago. Does it feel that way to you?

ThunderCAP wrote:

so I'm sure he'll be useful in a way or another just by being himself ^^.

I know what you're doing here. And I want to take the bait. But I won't.

And just to wrap it up:

SpaceMoose wrote:

There is an old quote about making sausage that comes to mind.

I mean, really, this is the kind of post we get from one of the developers. Forget about staying neutral. Forget about explaining the situation better. Just double down on some random assumption about a backer. Good call.

[s]*Edited to write this little addendum once I realized that "[b]DesViper[/b]" is also part of the MWM team. "[u]Why are you still here?[/u]" he asks me. These are your developers. Incredible. Just incredible. [/s]*

You've quoted others as me...I'll give you some time to fix that.

[later]Fixed, now please keep discussion more civil.

If we're getting semantic, I said "thank you" not "ditto"

I disagree on the mechanics of forum quoting. Had I meant to reaffirm every word, I'd say "ditto", but I meant to thank them for their articulated support, so I said "thank you".

Zerohour wrote:

...snip...

I'm completely over giving the team the benefit of the doubt when we have nothing - [u][b]let me repeat that - [i]nothing[/i] to show for almost 6 years of development.[/b][/u] There have been aforementioned videos, and lots of screenshots, but not once yet have I been completely impressed by what I've seen. And so, I feel it necessary to be my own person and speak my mind. Do you think that constantly praising them and forgiving all of their blunders is really helping anyone after all this time? I do not.

...snip...

If all they have so far given us in terms of information, screenshots, and videos is nothing to you then please enlighten us, what would [i]something[/i] be?

It’s becoming increasingly tedious having to read about supposed updates instead of literally just seeing the content for itself. Can we not just get a demo? A video of something in game?

It’s also becoming increasingly apparent that when complaints are made people are just being told to leave the forums or questioned why’ve they’ve even bothered checking back to begin with. Is that because there actually isn’t anything to show and they’re partly right?

MWM owe the fans and more importantly, the backers an update which contains substantial evidence of progress being made rather than the monthly pity parties celebrating coders overcoming minute problems as xyz elements of the game are made over and over again... I’m aware this sounds brash but instead of making a text post about something being remade or changed why not just show us a before and after.