Read the original post here: https://cityoftitans.com/content/design-evolution-ui-gameplay
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Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.
Wed, 06/05/2019 - 14:20
#1
Discuss: Design Evolution UI Gameplay
Nice. I like the screen shots!
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
It will be a pleasure to ignore all of this hard work once the game goes live and I start playing it. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I'm here for the elegant cobblestones.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/26pBVBG.png[/img]
([i]Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative[/i])
Clean and unobtrusive. Very nice.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
I'm kinda confused at why Darnstrong got chided for showing off UI stuff. The stuff he showed was better-looking, in my opinion. UI Test 4, specifically, is my favorite look.
The Altruist, Invulnerability/Super Strength Stalwart.
Where’s this video you were talking about?
Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...
Most MMO UIs looks good. And yet, most of them wouldn't belong in any of the other games. Charles was very talented and even his placeholder art looked good, but it didn't look like what we intended City of Titans to be like, specifically. It's a separate concern from pure aesthetic one to ten ranking.
That said, there's always ways various elements can be worked in and that's still a thing that happens. Which one is test 4?
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
He didnt get chided, at least no where that I have seen. I don't know what they are talking about. Everyone that I have seen has only given him praise for the video. The only thing is someone quoted what Shadow Elusive wrote about his video "That is nothing like the designs being used. The dev did not get his material checked. We'll produce a real UI update to explain." So if that is the chiding they are talking about it come from another dev, not a fan.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I can't agree more! :-P
The UI seem sleek & functional, I Have high hopes that will blend well with the game experience
CoH Union Server
Main: Grattolomeo (in pic), Hekathonkire
Yeah, that's the quote I was thinking about. I never meant to imply that the fans didn't like it, but rather that the devs seemed irritated that he exposed something less-than-stellar to the public. From my perspective, the public loved what he showed.
Of course, the current UI looks fine, but I just preferred the UI Test 4 over the (as-of-now) current UI.
The Altruist, Invulnerability/Super Strength Stalwart.
Guys, where're we at on the target and player health and such being on the same section?
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
I'm not sure what that means. But both the player array and the target window can be moved independently. The 'Target' on the player array toggles it in and out of visibility in whatever location you put it. That's the current default though
[center]--------------------------[/center]
[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Okay cool :) I'll probably move it then
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
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Avatar by MikeNovember
On another note, what's the plan for the portrait in the upper corner? Logo of some sort or dynamic portrait like in some early 3D games?
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Avatar by MikeNovember
"Excessively Verbose Englishman"
I really hope this is something I get to fight in the game. Be it a villain opponent or hero opponent.
Yeah. UI is a whole other artform. I'm still learning it. XD Gratz on achieving something that looks sleek and unobtrusive.
Very nice!
Can you tell us the purpose of highlighting buttons 9 to = on the power bar?
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
I'm glad you asked! That power tray is actually encompassing two original ideas we're hoping will smooth and improve tab based combat, and I take some pride in them. Tab based, in general, tend to involve a lot of power buttons and lots of trays floating around. This clutters your window, and then when you really need a specific power you often can't find it in time.
So, we've taken the way all power trays can be scrolled through in place (you know, the tray numbers) and made it a visible system that will be more intuitive to navigate. In that mockup, there are six '12characters' buttons across the top. Those represent six tabs, each a distinct instance of the power tray. You'll be able to custom label them, and I'm currently assuming a 12 character limit (12characters is, ironically, 12 characters)(I may have to cut that down so the font can be larger and therefore clearer). You'll be able to change which one you're on by clicking on or by scrolling through an as yet undetermined keystroke. It is my hope that the more immediate, visual comprehension will make using the one tray location for everything more appealing and natural. The +Bar at the end is for generating classic free floating ones, because you can't force people into new things, however awesome.
This, however, is for slots 1-8, hence the color distinction. Your six trays are 8 slots wide. The last four, 9 - 0, are static. Whatever you do, whatever tray tab you are on, those four will stay the same. So you have 4 stable, constant power slots as well. I personally would use them for those emergency powers you need rarely but need NOW when you do. But it's up to the player. The point is to have a handful of constant points you can rely on as you shuffle about. I'm hoping these two features will help address two of the biggest difficulties when trying to manage more than thirty powers at a time. Regardless they are not technically challenging to implement.
[center]--------------------------[/center]
[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
That sounds really cool!
I can't wait to try it out!
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Lol, I had the mental image of using some Iron Man-esque swiping HUD to swap between trays ^_^
[img=500X600]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RO4xswbDdY8/maxresdefault.jpg[/img]
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Avatar by MikeNovember
Regarding the +Bar option, can I safely assume we will be able to distribute the power bars around the screen and shape them much as we could in the old game? And will we have an option to turn off those last 4 slots on a per-bar basis? For those of us who would find having to scroll to locate powers more difficult than looking at multiple bars on-screen, it would be a shame to waste screen real estate by having a mandatory 4 redundant slots on every power bar.
Anyway, in general I really like the UI. I think the concepts of being minimal and being separate-able that you identified are as important as being fully player-configurable. I'm hoping the icons will remain the sort of symbolic language that we saw on the other thread and with which we are familiar from the old game.
The one thing I'm curious about (and about which I asked on the other thread as well) is that large circular player portrait. What information is that supposed to provide? It seems like a lot of real estate for a use I can't quite fathom.
Spurn all ye kindle.
First off, looks really nice! Now I will start with evil nitpicking....
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I play on a MacBook Pro, so I have different UI issues than someone who plays with a mouse-based style. I'm very dependent on the keyboard for any quick actions and while the trackpad is always at hand, it's not quite as flexible as mouse pointing, especially for fast movement. (But I don't want to give up a hand for constant mouse control.) So anything that has to be hit in combat with a mouse action is both slower than key actions and needs a bigger hit target than a typical mouse user would need. Another major consideration I run into in MMORPGs (I've played EQ, WoW, STO, CoX, and SWTOR on some variant of this setup), is that the high-def screen becomes a major UI issue a lot of the time. The UI needs to be able to scale differently than the 3D world window, and fonts used for 3D-window text labels need to be legible in Retina/HiDPI resolutions. Most games can handle this, but it often takes a half hour or more of option tweaking to get UI elements not to be tiny, UI labels to be legible, and chat windows to have decent font sizes. (It gets worse when I have to boot Windows to run the game.)
On to more specific comments:
- I've stopped using the compass in games now, it used to be necessary in EQ, which lacked a minimap when I played it, but with a minimap, it's often just additional clutter. I hide the compass window in STO now, though this does require the STO feature of the minimap displaying mission target locations off-map with border arrows.
- I don't know yet how many powers will typically be active at once for CoT characters; STO and SWTOR both have *way* too many, and I have four visible toolbars active in both of those games at all times. In STO, they are at least accessible through modifier keys. I *never* use switchable toolbars; I'm not sure quite why I can't deal with them, but when I've tried them, they always wind up set to the wrong set at a critical time. I much prefer a minimal set of active powers, but only EQ ever did that, and it didn't work too well, either. STO is tolerable because I can use modifier keys to access three of the toolbars, and see them stacked at the bottom. WoW was similar, and there I often put combo functions or other sometimes-enabled or slower power variants in the toolbar just above the main one, with a similar layout for similar types of powers.
- Because of my issues with switched toolbars, I'm not sure how I feel about your dynamic/static split on the toolbar. If I *have* to use switchable sets on the 1-8 keys to get access to all the powers I need, I'm going to really hate it, I suspect. I normally have my left and right number key row divided by function, which a dynamic/static split is going to really mess with. (Main attacks on 1-4 or so, AoEs on 5-7 or so, and defenses/heals/special abilities on 8-0 (or 8-=)) If I can get a second toolbar above with a modifier key like STO, I tend to use a similar functional split, but put long-cooldown or infrequent powers there. In SWTOR, I wind up mousing powers on the screen-side toolbars, which means I either don't use them, or they're toggle powers or things I can use when things are less hectic.
- Hmmm... if I could access two or three alternate toolbar sets in the main toolbar by holding down a modifier key, that *might* work okay for me, though I'd really like some kind of visual cue of what's on the alternate sets when the main set is visible. I did use some macros in WoW that dynamically switched functions on toolbar slots when modifier keys were active, and that worked pretty well for me, since the icons changed to match when I hit the modifier key.
- I normally operate with two visible chat windows at all times. One is for general chat, loot/system messages, and the like -- stuff I don't have to pay attention to in real-time when in combat. The other window is used for team chat (in combat) and guild chat (out of combat) -- stuff I need to pay more attention to. I usually wind up putting this window in the screen top center so I can glance up to in in combat to see team coordination messages when I need to. Both chat windows usually wind up with 6-8 lines of 50-80 characters displayed, so I have some context and history. But it eats screen real estate; transparent chat window backgrounds and older text fading help a bit.
- The uncluttered UI is good; STO is a real mess these days with *way* too many different UI windows, some of which are really annoying, like the current mission toaster popdown from the the mission tracker, and the truly annoying new Endeavor window. At least they seem to realize they need to do cleanup on the UI now... I do like STO's mission tracker mechanic of showing the current thing you need to do, if only they didn't show all the *other* steps you've finished too....
- I'm not sure how I feel about the character display being in the upper left; I generally don't look at my health bars in combat -- I'm usually too busy looking at power cooldowns on my toolbar to notice my health bar is dropping until I'm down. The upper left is enough out of my combat visual field that it's not too useful; on the other hand, I'm not sure where I'd put it that wouldn't be worse.
- Target, target castbar, and target of target UI elements are all very useful to me, especially if I can click on them to switch targets. I don't use focus targets as much, mostly because I don't do raid healers much (or raid anything, actually). Mostly I tab-target enemies and F-key target team members, though. If I can, I usually put these elements up in the upper center between my team chat and the minimap area on the upper right, where I can look at them quickly.
- Please don't use mouse button chords for anything (WoW used R+L for mouse steering). MacBook trackpads can't chord mouse buttons.... Right-click is also an iffy operation on a MacBook trackpad, at least for me when I'm in a hurry; it's fine for additional menu access out of combat and similar things.
That's probably enough for now.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team [/color]
So in a list:
-Scale UI
-Hotkeys!
-Compass OR Map
-Fewer active toggles
-Accessible alternate trays
-Multiple chat windows
-Mobile Health bar
-No mouse button chords
Think that's it :p It's been clarified that any toolbar can be moved so no worries on the healthbar :)
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[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
I hope these keys will be remappable to the numeric keyboard, the power ones and the switch power try ones too
CoH Union Server
Main: Grattolomeo (in pic), Hekathonkire
Love the way it evolved. The final picture in the post looks really elegant, like it will be a pleasure to play with. Great job!
I may be wrong, but I think it wasn't active toggles but the number of active/useful powers that wmilliken wanted to be limited. If that's the case, I have to respectfully disagree. I loved the fact that a max level char in the old game had a panoply of around 30 useful powers, and especially that the starter powers remained potent throughout the life of a character. I would dearly hope that would be the same in CoT.
I'd like to slightly modify this request to be that mouse chords not be [i]required[/i], in order to accommodate non-mouse players, but that they still be an option for those of us who wish to use them. I always found the continuous movement from L+R-click we had in the old game to be extremely useful.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Ehhh maybe I’ll have to see it in action but this whole UI/power tray thing sounds way more complicated than just having a couple moveable trays on the bottoms of the screen. Works fine in CoH, and it works fine in WoW
Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...
To address a couple of concerns:
We do plan for customizing key binds so you can remap keys to fit how you play. Don’t forget we are big on accessibility and want to be as able-gamer friendly as possible. Being able to switch up inputs is a big deal.
Having fewer active toggles for Powers entirely depends on your build. Toggles are commonly found in Protection Sets, a few in Support Powers, and you will have travel powers.
However we do have a plan for managing multiple toggles which requires some internal testing before we discuss it.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Because this is easier to work with, not that I didn't carefully read the entire original.
UI should actually scale automatically. Unreal basically has whatever default size to screen size as 1:1, and then does DPI scaling according to the difference between that and the screen size it's adapting to. If it doesn't work as well as we'd like, we can fiddle with the graph until it does.
As stated in the description of the bars, you'll be able to generate free floating classic bars if you want to go classic, and there will be keystroke commands to move through the tabs if you try that. I also hate trying to use switchable bars in most games, I designed this to try and fix that. So I hope you'll give it a try. You mentioned how an indicator of what's in what tray would help. Again as stated, you'll be able to custom label each tab. You're pretty much the kind of person I'm hoping to win over with these design ideas, so let me know how that goes when the time comes. I never felt like the usual way of doing it worked very well. This is my attempt to find a way that does. Or at least does for more people.
The idea that the compass is defunct did come up. I no longer remember the reason Warcabbit brought up to keep it, I just remember agreeing with it.
I'm not sure if 'fewer active toggles' is actually the right summary...games like this always have a lot to juggle, that's why I put time into designing bars that might handle it better. In the end, that's more a preference thing. We're likely to have quite a few, like our predecessor. Like everything else, not everyone will like that.
The free floating bars will not have the static slots. Key remapping is pretty standard, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to.
The chat has a button that will generate free floating instances of the chat window when pressed. You can have as many as you want. I've actually already gotten that functionality working in-engine.
As des said, the player array is moveable, like the target window and pretty much every other distinct element. Because we can make the buttons essentially toggle windows in and out of existence in place, we can let you move pretty much anything and it will be there when you call it again.
This chords thing is actually unfamiliar to me. You refer to needing to use two mouse buttons at once? Sounds awkward, I don't think it's the plan anywhere.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
I guess it means we'll be able to include toggles in sort of "Toggle groups". Those in the same group gets activated/deactivated all together, choice to the player of course.
That would mean that a tank could come out with only 2-3 buttons to press (for 2-3 groups) instead of 10+ (each toggle separated) and that would make the bars less crowded with buttons and would definitely be an improvement to the previous game, which cannot get close not even by using macros (and I use them, but toggles are still impossible to activate together with just one button pressed, at least for me).
And I guess you still need to discuss about using this to all kind of powers, which may improve or destroy the gameplay (if the player is able to macro-chain all attacks together, the combat may be ruined in his fun and you need to carefully check this).
*delete*
Watched Darnstrong's episode 04 - understood it is concept at this point - it added more depth to the update.
But we'll still be able to customise that scale size, correct?
I would argue that a compass is a useful tool for travelling in the open world for folks who don't plan to have the map on the screen all the time.
Thank you!
Perfect!
Not even for the movement toggle as we have/had in the old game?
Would still like to know the purpose of the character portrait. What information does this provide? I'm thinking real estate could be saved by taking whatever the meter is on the circumference and displaying that as a standard straight bar.
Spurn all ye kindle.
We expect to be able to allow you to take custom portraits of your character to be used in-game. It would go in that oval.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
The bar around the portrait is for XP. Minimizing the need for yet another straight bar that doesn’t have any impact on combat sitting along with the combat related bars.
I agree that the circle itself could be minimized and removing the portrait and simply placing the current character level inside which can reduce the footprint significantly. But it’s not my call.
I didn’t want to specify without checking with Shadow on this since it wasn’t in the current update, but he seemed ok with this.
We are adding something similar to this with a custom toggle-tray (or box if you will). You place your desired toggle powers in it, and one button press activated or deactivated the toggles. However, they activate in sequence, triggering all appropriate cast times and animations.
This works for toggles and switches, but not timers (our 3 forms of toggles for powers). I kind of had this fun idea of customizing animations for a series of toggles so they flowed together when activated in sequence making it look like a kata, haha.
We figure this way, when defeated, instead of constantly clicking on the toggles one after another, you hit one button and all of the toggles in the special latest will activate for you.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Idk, I like the character portrait idea :) Esp if we got some simple filters (desaturate, HDR, parchment, etc)
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
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Avatar by MikeNovember
But what information does this portrait provide? If the philosophy is 'staying back and leaving the game clear and open to be immersed in' then I'd suggest there shouldn't be anything in the UI taking up space that does not provide essential information.
If some people like it I don't want to stop them from having it, but I would strongly plead for a player option to have a flat xp bar without the large wasted space in the centre.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Well, in the Old City, the level was there. How about an option? :)
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
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Avatar by MikeNovember
How would you feel about putting a transparent hole in place of the center picture?
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Still seems like a big waste of space. Again, I'd think the UI philosophy described in the update would rule out any significant use of real estate that doesn't provide essential information.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Have an option to toggle it out?
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Yes please. :-) That's ultimately all I'm asking for.
Though just out of curiosity I would still like to know the purpose of having a char portrait as part of the UI.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I love it, and I REALLY love the fact that we're given so many options! Want to try the new power management system? Boom, done. (It sounds intuitive and efficient, BTW, and I WILL be giving it a try.) Like the old way? Click, done.
I personally don't know why a player would like to see their character in the UI, but I understand the significance of the XP tracking around it being symbolic and wanting to give that option. I do agree that it's not for everyone, and it might be a good idea to be able to switch from a circumference-style XP tracker to a linear one.
I, being older than your average bear, also hope we can change the size of [b]everything[/b] text-related without touching the general UI scaling. In Old City, I could change the chat text, but couldn't see recipe levels in my inventory without making all of the windows super-sized and eating my screen.
What is the area at the top-right designated for? Old City is the only MMO I have ever played, so I have no frame of reference for what goes there normally.
"Why clean the house when you can be saving the WORLD?!?" ~Justice Wraith
The "kata" idea seems really fun and it would work to surprise the player for both, the gameplay improvement compared to the past (I always use tanks and it's really tedious to activate 10 toggles each time I use "walk" to roleplay or those get deactivated for other reasons) and the graphic improvement (blending animations).
Try to accomplish it and it will make a "wow" effect imho.
The "fun" inherent in your ideas come from the fact that you're not just developers but players, you want to play it and not just the money that comes with it, it's an huge difference that I'm positive will be perceived in the end.
Sometimes, you just need to use pictures to [b]SHOW[/b] what you're talking about when it comes to UI design and the elements in it.
Since Homecoming [i]exists[/i] and it is now possible to grab screenshots from it to (*ahem*) ... illustrate ... (*cough*) what I'm talking about, I'm just going to provide a couple of imgur links to show how I've recreated my UI setup in a City of Heroes context in "that game" again.
[url=https://i.imgur.com/BJJfkFi.jpg]IMAGE[/url] link
[url=https://i.imgur.com/O4MabMb.jpg]IMAGE[/url] [i]explained[/i] link
This is what the bare bones UI setup I use looks like.
[b]Notice how the arrangement of UI elements is in an "open horseshoe" with the open side pointing "down" towards the bottom of the screen.[/b]
This allows my character to "exist" in an offcenter position where I can see "over" in a wide variety of camera angles so as to have an uncluttered view of the game environment. I have found through playing Star Trek Online that I really resent having UI "clutter" at the bottom edge of the center of the screen where it will "force" my avatar to be higher/closer to the center of the screen in order to have an uncluttered view of what is "forward" of my character and the viewing angle. I don't want my avatar in the dead center of my screen. I want what I'm trying to pay attention to (downrange) in the dead center of my screen, with my character avatar offset BELOW the dead center of the screen ... and putting UI elements at the bottom of the screen interferes with that purpose. Bare minimum, I need to be able to see the ENTIRETY of my character avatar, from heels to top of head, in the space between "below dead center" of screen and the bottom edge of my screen. Putting "permanent" UI elements into this space just wastes valuable viewing volume on what amount to "foreground" elements that are getting in the way of being able to look INTO the game space.
Also notice that my personal preference is to put any "permanently open" UI elements into the corners of the screen (bottom left for chat, top right for minimap and bottom right for power trays). The only window that doesn't follow this pattern is the Target ID window that I place dead center at the top of the screen. The reason for this is so that whenever I need to see Enemy Info, all I need to do is "look up" from my avatar and at a glance I'll be able to see the info I need to know. Minimal work for maximum return in terms of eye movements.
I've got other "nice to know" but situational windows placed adjacent to the Target ID window. So if I'm in a place that has an Event, the Event window for that Event will show up to the LEFT of my permanent Target ID window. If I've got a $Target selected and that $Target has its own $Target selected, the "Target of Target" window will appear to the right of my Target ID window. This keeps all of the useful info clustered conveniently together where it can be seen, but also which unclutters automatically when there are no Events or Target of Target info to be had.
The left hand side of the screen above the chat window is devoted to Team/League UI elements.
Pets (if present) appear on the right side of screen between the minimap and the power trays.
I use a combination of the 1-0 and F1-F10 keys (plus modifiers) to directly address [b]EIGHT Powers Trays[/b] ... but reserve the 1 tray for use by "dependent" powers, such as the Kheldian Forms and "sub-powers" like those accessible through Swap Ammo in Dual Pistols (Incendiary Ammo, Crygenic Ammo, Toxic Ammo), so as to be able to SEE (at all times!) the current "state" of those powers without ever needing to "guess" what their recharge and/or activation/toggle state is.
In my personal experience of having played multiple MMORPGs, the imperative in UI design arrangement of elements that I have found is to keep the "cruciform" (as in + shaped areas) of the screen as clear as you can manage on a maximum uptime basis. This means up/down/left/right centered on the dead center of the screen. The corners of the screen are the places where you can "put stuff" without spoiling peripheral vision of game elements that would otherwise be within the field of view. In other words, sheer situational awareness requirements dictate that permanently obscuring UI elements ought to be "banished" to the four corners of the UI layout for best usability of the "game space" seen in the center of the screen. The character avatar needs to be (3rd person) VISIBLE within that space, but NOT the dominant element within that field of view, so as to allow the Player to "see around" their avatar with ease.
After that, it's just a matter of choosing where you want the "temporary" windows to open around your UI for various things (Salvage and Bank windows, for example) that are usually only accessed while you are NOT in combat, and thus don't "need" an uncluttered view of the game world in order to interact with it (and pick your $Targets) in a situationally aware manner. That's because in order to interact with those UI windows, the attention span of the Player is focused "inwards" on their character('s inventory, usually) rather than focused "outwards" into the game world ahead of and around them.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Oh, I'd also like to ... [b]remind[/b] ... the UI team of the [i]fast prototyping work[/i] that Izzy and I collaborated on doing back in Dec 2016(!) on button shapes and the "nimbus" of info around them ... since that would seem to be a relevant component of this discussion (and I'd hate to see all that effort/enthusiasm go to waste just because some Devs forgot about it in the YEARS since).
https://cityoftitans.com/comment/113442#comment-113442
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Just a thought, but personally, the reason I would want a portrait is because in an mmorpg, I will be seeing my character's backside most of the time and only see their face for photo ops. My character's face helps me immerse myself more.
That said, I am always in favor of options!
I swear we had an update on the Nimbus in 2017 or something. *scouring the kickstarter update list*
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Redlynne, I don't remember a "Target of Target" UI element; where was that located in the options?
"Why clean the house when you can be saving the WORLD?!?" ~Justice Wraith
Either it was cleverly concealed, or I'm getting myself confused with Star Trek Online (which did have a Target of Target feature). Either way, I figure it's going to be something we'll want as a UI feature in City of Titans.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I might be in the minority here, but I actually would enjoy if it was option-based to have your character portrait portrayed or not. That way some of us can have our cake and eat it too. I, personally, like the idea of having a character portrait just do to how it's almost like a "mini ID" that shows your character next to some semi-important info like your health, energy, etc and it helps give the UI some flavor and act as though its a HUD. Replacing it with either a bland space that simply displays what level you currently are like how it is in CoH is quite boring in my eyes to say the least.
"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."
In the Old City if you targeted a friendly and tried an offensive power, it's hit their target.
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
City of Options! ;-)
Thank you, Redlynne and DesViper.
"Why clean the house when you can be saving the WORLD?!?" ~Justice Wraith
City of TITANic Options!
Aye, I'm all for options cuz that makes everyone happy.
Come to think of it, where will one's current level appear? That is essential information, especially if there will be sidekicking/exemping and Ouro-type level adjustment.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I've seen several issues with UI scaling, including auto-scaling schemes. I think most of them have shown up when I'm running under Windows, though, since Windows has its own notions of what the screen shape should be, and the native Mac Pro's screen dimensions don't fall into any of the normal setups it supports. This then cascades into games running Windows on my machine. A more subtle problem crops up when the game designers completely fill the screen edges with UI elements that are sized to "standard" Windows screens. These then don't scale well to the differently-shaped Mac screen. I doubt this will be a problem with your relatively-sparse UI design, though. The final scaling issue I've run into is graphics scaling versus text element scaling; what's perfectly fine scale for graphics elements on a high-res screen may not work well for text. Chat windows usually have adjustable font sizes (necessary for me), but text labels on the UI like countdown timers are often too small when the graphic elements are scaled nicely for me.
Additional bars is useful, to a degree. Key-switching the main bar is less so; my problem there is inadvertently triggering a bar switch with fat fingers and then wondering why my powers aren't firing right because I'm not staring at the toolbar at the moment. The only toolbar setup I've ever had that I felt decently comfortable with was my WoW toolbars, which I had heavily customized with macros that switched based on modifier keys. Even then, I had to use an additional bar above the main toolbar to display the powers on the modifier keys in the main bar, so I could see their cool down state without hitting the modifier key. (This is what I meant by powers on additional bars being visible, tab labels for the bars don't help with that.)
Hmmm... what might work pretty well for me in your setup is if your toolbar tabs can be *transiently* switched while holding down a modifier key (or any key bound to the tab, maybe), rather than simply toggling it over to a new bar. I would almost certainly want an option to turn off the static behavior on the right end of the bar, though. Static behavior can be replicated by the user by duplicating functions across bars, while the part-static design can't be worked around easily.
Correct, I wasn't talking about toggle powers except to say I could put them on far-away toolbars, since they're not used much dynamically in combat. My problem is the sheer number of powers; I can't keep more than about a dozen in my head. This problem is made much worse by the fact that I normally have many characters, all with different power sets. To manage that, I have to pare down the number of actions each character typically has to use in combat to a half-dozen key powers that go in combat rotation, or are crucial situationally (like interrupts), plus another half-dozen that are highly useful but not part of the usual combat rotation. All the other powers are just chrome, as far as I'm concerned. Or something I might put on a toolbar temporarily to deal with a specialized raid boss situation.
I've been playing STO for years now, and am only now really getting a handle on what powers I really need to use in ship combat. Beyond that, I just spam whatever's off cooldown and hope for the best. And unlike most MMORPGs, STO has a very similar set of powers across classes.
Two windows is usually plenty, and it's hard enough to find screen real estate for those.
As someone else mentioned, the main use I've seen is the WoW-style "move-and-steer" mouse-R+mouse-L default command. I never used that in WoW, except when swimming, since it was a pain to do; I think I finally bound it to the backquote key instead. On Mac trackpads that would be a natural for two-finger trackpad gestures, but supporting UI that only works on Macs isn't likely worth the effort. (See also the MacBook Touch Bar...)
I should also note that middle-mouse isn't accessible on Macs with trackpads, though both horizontal and vertical scroll are. I often use the vertical scroll operation in chat windows and UI lists; I assume it will be supported in your UI, since most game engines support vertical scrollwheels.
Obviously, for people who have regular mouse setups, or myriad-button mice, the UI should support that. But it shouldn't be dependent on a standard mouse setup. One case where this became an issue was in STO, where the UI operation to move powers off a toolbar is right-click-drag. For some reason on Windows, Mac trackpads can't do a right-click-drag operation, only a basic right-click. And there's not a rebind for this in STO -- I have to either plug in a mouse for rearranging things, or simply live with dragging stuff on top of slot powers I want to get rid of. I usually do the latter.
I should also note that the UI that's totally ingrained in my brain after 30 years or so of use is the Emacs key bind (pre-GUI) model. So I'm a very atypical user -- I really want everything on 1- or 2-stage keymaps with mnemonic key binds. Mice are for pointing at things on the screen and moving them, not taking actions....
And thanks for all the follow-up, everyone!
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team [/color]
That was an amazingly useful feature, though I still want to be able to see what that target is, on screen. The converse (target an enemy with a beneficial power and hit the enemy's target) is also very useful.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team [/color]
I think the UI is coming along nicely, though I do have two concerns/observations;
1) I'm a little unsure of how the power bar mechanics will work. I feel like I am going to be making use of the extra bars - I like having all my options in front of me as opposed to hidden behind tabs. Seems like it would be a little unwieldy in combat. Of course I have zero experience with gameplay, but these are my first thoughts.
2) What is the purpose of the character portrait? If the concern is minimizing the UI then the portrait can be very easily done away with. Put some more pertinent info in there or get rid of that part I'd say. Give us an ability to look at our character's model (besides just "turning the camera around") somewhere else.
PS. as for the compass - keep it in (could be useful in certain situations I suppose) just integrate it with the map as an overlay. I don't think it needs it's own discreet UI element.
I think the portrait should be removed, and the momentum bar be made into a momentum ball in the portraits place. Not as big, just as tall as the other bars, to not stand out or take up to much space. It should grow from small to large and of course pulse or flash when at maximum. Sexy icon in the mo ball is a must. Why the momentum ball? Because it will be meaningful function all players will utilize and it is an interesting new feature that deserves its own new design.
ShadowElusive stated earlier up thread that you can create multiple power bars. Cycling through only works in the default set up.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I like this idea! Smaller and providing useful information -- sounds good to me.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I like the portrait and hope it stays.
The Altruist, Invulnerability/Super Strength Stalwart.
Like other things in development for this game, we have two camps: portrait or no portrait. I'm in favor of the player having the option to keep or remove the portrait. I'll keep it myself, but people who don't want it should have the option to remove it. I am pretty sure the devs already have options in mind. :)
Hopefully, it'll be option-based to have the portrait shown or not. Feels kind of unfair to not include it by default just because "it serves no purpose or function". While I understand that thought at face value, it's okay to have some things just be there for cosmetic and visuals alone. After all, if the goal is to have the UI being customizable to a player's specific preferences then why not be allowed the option of choosing whether you want your portrait displayed or not?
That being said I can only imagine the 'Options' section in the game's settings menu being absolutely crammed with things to enable or disenable.
"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."
More to the point, not everything is as simple as 'turn it on and off'. In this case, it means designing two completely different UI pieces to swap, as the shape of the portrait is affecting pretty much everything else there. If half the people like it and half don't, that's...actually about average anyway.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
I'd still like to know what information it provides. That's a big chunk of the UI taken up by something that has no real functional purpose.
At least give us the option to turn it off please. Though if a dev can spend time working on various options for an in-game clock when we have myriad other ways to tell time, I'd argue there's also dev time for designing two versions of a single piece of the UI.
Spurn all ye kindle.
+1
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Massive misconception here. Just because a Dev is taking notes for implementing a clock/calendar function does not mean we are getting it any time soon.
Quite the contrary, it is in their interest to know NOW what players want before functionalities get locked down. Once things get locked down and baked-in it is many magnitudes harder to add it into the game
Taking notes now does not in anyway, shape or form mean we are getting it nyoow. In fact it may take many iterations before we see a lot of the QoL functions.
I guess one way of putting it is: "You can't uncook a baked cake."
"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."
His argument, as i understand it, is that if the devs can justify time for a clock in their very limited CoT work time then they should be able to make an alternate version of the UI that simply doesnt contain the portrait or changes it to something useful. We already have plenty of ways to keep track of time outside the game...so if they have time for that they should have time for more 'useful' UI features.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
A clock is different than creating a separate UI. It was already established that Avel had a clock, and even wifi bars made for the UI. The portrait is already in the design but your suggestions are definitely helpful and good feedback.
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[color=#FF0000]Graphic Designer[/color]
I wouldn't call it "creating a separate UI" when it is only the portrait that is being talked about; that makes it sound like they would have to recreate the entire UI screen which is not true.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I'm generally pro-options, so I support this post!
I'm on the side of not particularly interested in seeing a picture of the character I'm currently playing as. I would rather have level information displayed or something that has important game information, or like many others are saying, nothing. Many times when I was playing CoX I would take every single UI box off the screen so I could just experience the game, if anything I would have the top right(health/endurance) up. One thing that could be nice is if you could set a waypoint and then an arrow would appear in the circle to point the way with possibly distance text under it, so you wouldn't need a big map screen open.
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
The clock was a learning project for Richard several years back. In the normal scheme of things, we most definitely would not be making that much time for it at this stage. I'm trying to cover two very different areas of development at once. Whatever may have led to the impression we have spare time for extra pieces, we really, truly do not.
Feedback on the portrait has been good, we've gotten a strong sense of how many fall on each side and how strongly people feel about it, and why. There's more ways to solve a problem then 'just do both', and regardless, everybody has said their piece. I think we've passed the productive stage on this specific angle.
Note: While we are taking all of this down,we won't be doing (major) revisions until the first wave of playtesting reactions are in. Once there, of course, nothing is sacred, and what's being said here will be remembered and taken into account.
That said, while it's true you have other ways of telling the time, it's pretty well established at this point that if the time isn't in the game, people do in fact lose track. Their focus is on the game and if they're using full screen, they just don't notice. There's a lot of focus on keeping players from spending unhealthy amounts of consecutive time in-game these days, and having the real time in-game is considered a basic. Which doesn't change the fact that [i]beyond[/i] that basic function, was due to it being a learning project (also I believe the coding department had a bit more breathing room back then).
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Having a clock in-game (set for the client's time zone) serves two basic (essential?) functions ... actually displaying the out of game time ... and as a UI element for setting an "alarm" to alert the Player when a time threshold has been crossed. That way, a Player can set a "reminder" for themselves, in game, of when they need to concern themselves with stuff outside the game, for whatever reason. The alarm function can be somewhat non-intrusive (playing a chime, for example, rather than shutting down the game client) in order to serve a "Don't Forget" function.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I wouldn't call it essential when you can set an alarm on your phone.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Assumptions.
I don't have a phone with an alarm function.
Now what?
This is very funny to me.
Usually the arguments are against immersion breakers. Personally, I find a clock feature convenient but unnecessary and distinctly takes me out of whatever gameplay immersion is at hand.
Alarm clocks have been around for at least several decades now...
To argue in favor a feature that breaks immersion to remind you there are responsibilities in rl seems like a superfluous qol issue. The whole reason I play games is to briefly escape reality and said responsibilities but they are still there waiting for me when I’m done playing. The onus is on me to to not spend too much time playing not the developers.
While convenient at times I generally find this an unnecessary feature that could easily wait til well after release...
But this is just my opinion...
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
A *basic* clock is no big deal and no major commitment. Ultimately in-game ones often add a variety of QoL features that we aren't going to work on anytime soon, but will probably consider eventually.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
I would submit that the clock feature is for those who, rather than finding it easy for things to break immersion, need to have it broken periodically.
My main- concern on this issue, though, is how difficult it would be to add later if it doesn't go in at launch.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
How old is your phone? My Nokia brick phone had that function 15+ years ago.
Its not a game's responsibility to tell you to stop playing. ESPECIALLY CoT that has so little available development time as it is...i would hate to be told they were spending ANY dev time on an alarm clock when they are already so behind. It should be so far down the list it should basically not exist.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Wow. Not one Dev said they were Making a clock function. It is already a functional part of the engine. Avel was seeking submissions for what WE the players would LIKE to see. NOT ONCE did he say he was making it. NOT ONCE.
Assumptions are being made. Too many to count.
Actually the connection quality is probably more important than a clock. Modern MMOs often have such. This is not something that can be substituted with your phone or an external clock. :)
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
The mini portrait doesn't have to have no function at all, it could easily act as target self, especially if the other members of your group have their portraits displayed below it when you team. Hotkeying team members never works for me if I'm playing a support character, I tend to click target then hotkey the actual power. Probably learned behaviour from healing in 40 person raids in early Warcraft days. I don't imagine CoT will require quite the response times that game used to, but it's still nice to be able to click target a team-mate or yourself in one area of the screen. I'm saying 'click' but actually it's much more pleasant if you target whoever your cursor is hovering over when you hit the activation button, but again that may be overkill for the required response times. It does eliminate a click though!
I'm aware that buffs may well use the alternate activation system so you can toggle between self and normal targetting but, again, sometimes it's more intuitive to just click on yourself rather than clicking to target everyone else in your team but using a toggle or shift key for self casts.
"What? Don't you all have phones?!" :p
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
[youtube]n5QRgpjfarY[/youtube]
Or to put it another way ... [i]I've got a sandwich, so why would anyone in the world be hungry?[/i]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Just in case, I'm not saying Blizzard dude made a good call with that quip!
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
To clarify, I am not against alarm clocks or clocks or anything else that anyone could ever want to be a part of the UI or the game. My argument is that I don't want any of the limited dev time put into the UI to add it if it isn't already ready-to-go as I don't see it as essential by any means while they are already pressed for time just to get the game out.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
+1
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
No. I was making a point about owning responsibility individually. You left out the most important part of that paragraph. [b]The onus is on me to to not spend too much time playing not the developers. [/b] I just think it's a feature that isn't necessary at the onset of release.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Who, just who said they were working on it for release?!?!?!?
If you find an in game clock immersion breaking, then guess what? DON'T USE IT.
Simple, no?
Some are freaking out over a non issue. Will we get a clock? Probably. When will we get a clock? Not At Launch.
They already have a schedule and timeline to get issue #0 put the door. All Avel wanted to know was what we want and how extensive we wanted it. To reiterate: NOT ONCE DID HE SAY HE WAS MAKING IT NOW! You all assumed that by asking, that that is what he was working on.
Assumptions are dangerous and misleading. Stop it.
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