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I didn't read the comment as a complaint; I read it as a question about the devs. Every year for 5 years they have touted a release of the chargen. I think he's asking how many more years they can go promising its release and then not deliver.
And it's a low blow to say that non-backers opinions/comment/complaints aren't worth as much. Many of us, like myself, wish we could have taken part in it. I didn't even know about CoT until 2015, which is when they first started dangling the second chance in front of us...
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Good rule of thumb for MMO develoment:
100-150 core developers
100-150 additional support staff (these may come and go throughout the develoment cycle).
At an average cost of 10k a month per employee.
And typically up to 4-6 years (from preproduction to live).
Figure (and this a very rough estimate for a 3D mmo) on the low end: 200 developers over 5 years has a minimum of 2 million work hours and costs $120 million.
We have 1/4 the work force, putting in 1/4 the weekly work hours a piece (on average), operating half of a percent of the budget.
Granted, we have no overhead in facility, salary, and insurance costs. Our work ours are also reduced because we don’t have to reinvent the wheel since we have an engine and plenty of tools to assist us with design.
We could have been further along if we weren’t strictly volunteer based. We have had people join and drop off without knowing why. We have had people leave for personal reasons to return years later, and people who have come and gone for months at a time.
Our more steady people have had illnesses, car wrecks, jobs lost, divorces, and deaths in their families. Stuff that would be alleviated by sick time, paid time, family leave, etc. when we have no pay, so do all these other financial securities become non-existent. Which makes it a hard decision to return to a job when the financial incentive doesn’t exist. You tend to return when you have margin.
It is an unfortunate reality of our situation and something we have had to roll with when the punches when they come. People of course can be concerned ;we have had our fair share of mess ups, set backs, and plenty of lessons to learn along the way.
We are learning. We have been moving forward. And we are doing our best to improve.
Additional funding is definitely needed, no doubt about that. The decision has been to not ask for something without offering something. Issue 0 gives something to players which is the opportunity to head into our Second Chance.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
My hope is that the chargen is very complete so people just HAVE to throw money at you :)
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
I remember when MWM was looking for IT support. It was for (if I remember right) a Lynwood, WA location which isn’t far from me. And I was looking for work. But I can’t volunteer that kind of time, I have to pay bills and feed my family. I’m gainfully employed now (doing IT for the government) but boy it would have been fun to work for an MMO, especially one where people do it for the love of the game.
That's definitely one of the most important reasons that I'm a supporter of this project.
+1 A potential Second Chancer has as much reason to ask questions as an original backer.
I think Tannim sums up the situation really well above. That's at least part of why I am willing to cut them so much slack where I wouldn't on a salaried project at my job.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Nearly 4 months since my last post. I did not leave with much optimism. Talks of CoT occur outside of these forums (That is a good thing). Therefore, I felt compelled to check back in & this was the thread which caught my eye.
I understand your situation in regards to development. Promise after promise is discouraging, but, it is understandable. VO has shown us that releasing content for the sake of credibility in terms of doing what you say will can back fire. It is best to wait for a ready product.
I am ok with more vids & screenshots. However, I would be lying if I said there was not a bit of disappointment. I am still waiting for the dinosaur race to appear in some screenshots or videos. Saur-borg (T-rex) & Super Saurus (Spino) were two dino themed toons I had in CO.
Ultimately, everyone wants that char gen, myself included. However, I do not want another VO. Who had the nerve to do an April fools joke by the way......Yeah...But I digress.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Well, read like a complaint to me.
Also, their opinions aren't, when it comes to matters of "This game has been in development to long."
As for every year they've touted the release of the chargen, I don't recall that being touted until last year, and you're right they missed it and I wasn't thrilled about that missed date either.
To be clear I don't think anyone here has necessarily suggested that someone's opinions/comment/complaints are "worth more" that anyone else's. At least I haven't - Brand X's "opinion of other's peoples opinions" is of course Brand X's opinion...
Everyone here has a voice and I have claimed many times on this forum that I literally consider myself "lucky, not special" that I just happened to learn about the original Kickstarter when I did and was able to contribute to it. A plain case of being at the right place at the right time.
But having said that I continue to find it "interestingly ironic" that there are those people here who have yet to contribute (for whatever reason) a dime to this endeavor who are more willing to negatively question the state of this game than others who have contributed hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Perhaps it's a simple case of human nature - people with "skin" in the game may be less willing to accept/admit that they've potentially thrown their good money at a project that could still fail so remain irrationally optimistic to save face.
I still contend that it doesn't really help anyone (the folks working for MWM or the potential players of CoT) to beat the dead horse of frustration. Everyone involved wants to play this game and wants it released [i]yesterday[/i]. Harping on MWM for a game release doesn't make it happen any faster. We have no serious leverage over MWM regardless as you can't effectively rage-quit a game that doesn't yet exist. So let's all of us (including me) take our collective chill-pills and do our best to keep our bubbling impatience to a minimum.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
1. Neither myself nor anyone else that I have seen is harping on them to release anything. Even Weylors comment didnt ask for a release date or for them to hurry up. It was a question asking how many more years they can go saying there will be a chargen release but then not define it. I think the devs have finally, hopefully, learned the answer to that; 0. I daresay if they were to announce it again this year and not deliver...CoT might not make it.
2. @Brand, he literally gave you the dates with the quotes of when they talked about a release each year. But I guess we'll have to wait for the second chance to get a donators badge before you'll think our opinions are worth anything.
3. I also don't see anyone bringing up the idea that they should be doing better than they are or that they should be further along than they are. Yet people, devs included, keep explaining their plight which makes it seem like this thread, or at least the recent comments, are asking why they arent released already... and no one is asking that.
I can't speak for anyone else but I'll clarify where I stand. Im a little skeptical about the team's ability to manage a company to keep CoT alive. I am not skeptical about their drive, passion, ability, or expertise. I'm also not expecting an issue 1 release for another 3-5 years if they truly plan on this being a full-size MMO because of all the reasons tannin gave above. I feel like this game has the potential to be funner and better, in every way, than CoH. I think they have a very long way to go to achieve that but I don't doubt their ability to do so. But I also believe my intent to donate, and this goes for everyone IMO, outweighs any criticisms on these forums for a few reasons. Without the money they will fail, 100%. Theyve said as much...KS money is running out and at that point they're dead in the water. Tough questions arent always criticisms and following blindly, with blinders on to everything that might be questionable, is not neccesarily a good thing.
I want them to succeed, I hope they do, I plan on finally getting the chance to financially help them succeed, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when I see questionable things just because they are volunteers. They are a company promising a product and asking for financial help. You can ask tough, if not blatant, questions.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Certainly fair to feel this. The transition from volunteer based to company will be the most difficult. I’m confident we have the experience and talent to manage and operate as a company. It’s the getting there tbat’s tricky.
Honestly, we can’t afford to take that ling to get to issue 1. I mean that in multiple senses of the word. Issue 1 (or release) is only half the game (1-30) for this reason.
Issue 0 and Second Chance will be the start from volunteer to compan based and hire on more talent to help in key roles. We have a lot of pieces which are beginning to fall into place. Once we have those prices in place, the talent to co tibue working on them, and the finding to support that, the develoment cycle will snowball.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
That part actually isn't quite true yet.
We're not asking for financial help until there's more to show for it.
That said, a lot of what's been brought up is fair points. Until just recently, I was bringing up similar points.
I'll tell you, without dropping names or breaking NDA, there's been a number of arguments internally about making promises. There's a definite shift in attitude this year.
Plus other stuff, but talking about that [i]would[/i] be breaking NDA.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
Well you're running on KS funds atm. Just not asking for more [i]yet[/i]. But my point stands.
And I dont see a point in mentioning that there is stuff you cant mention...it neither confirms nor denies anything nor does it give any meaningful information that adds to the discussion.
My point is that despite what other fans and/or devs think of me, I am still planning on donating as I have a slightly more positive outlook on the game than negative. I like the scope, the setting, the proposed playstyle and details like aesthetic decoupling, etc. I may be reserving a bit of expectation on the quality of the game until I see something closer to final form...but I dont expect release-level polish right now or anything close to it. It's the final product that keeps me here waiting and hoping...and willing to donate. Everyone can hate me for being annoying but that's fine; my dollar is just as valuable as anyone elses to CoT and I'll likely only solo in-game so no one will even know I'm there.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Nah, I like having you around. And others like you.
Fanboys don't keep companies honest. Calling out mistakes does.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
Correct me if I am wrong, but the way I see it is like building complex lego sets. You build all the sub assemblies and then start to attach them together. The setup takes a while but once you start adding the modules it goes a lot quicker. I am as anxious as a long tailed dog in a room full of rocking chairs to see issue zero, they have to be close given the 3 months setback from fall 2018. Once they get the base infrastructure of the game settled things should be at least a little smoother. The hardware expansion last week was very likely to allow them a "test" environment and a "live" environment. They are very likely already putting it through its paces. It isnt like they can throw the live environment together without some stress testing.
I loved Tannims list of things off the top of his head that needed to be completed, That kind of update shows us some of the work that has to be done that most people never know was done in the first place.
Count me in on that.
There are of course some exceptions, who just want to troll, but what I think is this:
You wouldn't be here if you wanted MWM to fail or if you wouldn't want to support the cause.
And what I think is that, you can support on many ways, of course the monetary way is very important and helps a lot, but even just the word of mouth and doing some advertisement is already good enough.
So... What do I want to say?
I want to say that every person's opinion is valuable. Of course fanboys are most likely to buy as much as possible, but they might not take the criticism well and try to "defend" us.
Constructive criticism/feedback is the best communication we can use. It helps as well... And that's also supportive.
I like being able to contribute even if I initially didn't have the luck with the Kickstarter. Everyone's contributes, in their own way and I know we all appreciate that.
[font=courier][color=#FF0000]Tech[/color][/font]
45 52 52 4F 52 3A 20 34 30 34 0D 0A 48 65 72 6F 20 6E 6F 74 20 66 6F 75 6E 64 21
Woohoo! I think we just got Redname endorsement to be "constructively annoying" from time to time. ;)
To be crystal clear there are different "types" of things to whine about when it comes to this game/forum.
For instance I think most people here generally know I have absolutely no problem calling out Rednames when they say dumb, condescending or contradictory things like when a certain Redname who shall remain nameless recently decided to unilaterally spout off their own personal political/religious views on this forum in order to incite a flame war. Again I have no problem smacking people for things like that regardless if they are a Redname or not. Fortunately that kind of thing doesn't actually happen very often so the general serenity of this forum can usually be maintained.
On the other hand the type of "lazy complaint" that goes something like "Boohoo we've been waiting for years for MWM to release anything so I think they stink!" is really totally pointless because it serves no useful purpose and won't help to make anything happen any quicker.
So I guess I'm saying if you're going to complain about something related to this game at least talk about something useful and significant. Beating the same dead horse related to what MWM has or hasn't released yet is just "useless negativity" that's not going to solve anything. It's not about being mindlessly optimistic that MWM will succeed no matter what - it's just that the point has been made a thousand times already and I'd simply rather talk about other topics.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Nowhere in this thread was that my, or anyone else's, complaint. I have never complained that it is taking too long; in fact, I have mentioned many times, even on this thread earlier, that I don't expect them to release Issue 1 for years and that I am completely okay with and understanding of that. I don't feign some great understanding of game development and its timetables. That has never been an issue that I have had with the CoT devs.
Then why are you commenting if you think this discussion is about me saying I think they should have released sooner? Go make another thread on a topic you [i]would[/i] like to talk about.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Uhm... wasn't necessarily calling you out on this specifically. I was replying to warlock after all, not you.
Plenty of OTHER people have been making the "lazy complaints" I described for years now.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
See, it's not true, those things they say about you. That was a good post.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
Well Dark Cleric does tend to make reasonably well intentioned and logically based criticisms [i]against[/i] MWM when deserved and necessary. Most OTHER people just tend to whine about how long it's been since the Kickstarter as if complaining about a good game taking a few years to make is a relevant (or even interesting) complaint.
So sure if you consider someone like me praising Dark Cleric for his well intentioned constructive criticisms of MWM a "good post" I'll be happy to accept it as such. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
My apologies. It's hard to tell, sometimes, what is directed at you personally and what isn't in an active thread.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Fair enough. For what it's worth I tend to make it pretty obvious when I'm "aggressively debating" against someone or not. In other words if I ever specifically need to call you out for being an idiot about something there likely won't be any question about my intentions. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Quoting the critical post, or Section of post, is useful for clarifying your target. That way one doesn't get muck on any passing stranger. *grin*
Be Well!
Fireheart
... Quoted for truth.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
Quoted for falsehood.
I have been called out for doing exactly that (culling the chaff and just speaking to one point that was brought up). There is no way to win that type of argument.
It seems that the best way to go about it if you disagree with a statement is to just quote the statement and remove who it was attributed to. That way you are attacking the argument and not the person.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
Okay, I get that we can't get a release date or even approximate date. Could we at least get some idea when the Second Chance will be, relative to the release of the beta? Also, what will be the rewards, by amount of donation, that we receive? Will they be the same as the original Kickstarter up to some point, or will other features listed in the Kickstarter be different?
City of Heroes / City of Villains player until the end.
I'm sure a Redname could jump in on this if I get something wrong but I think we already have the basic ballpark answers to your questions.
First since we know the Rednames have repeated multiple times that they don't want to do a Second Chance before they have "something to show us first" I think that makes it fairly clear that the start of the Second Chance will more or less coincide with the release of Issue 0. I'm pretty much expecting those two things to effectively happen simultaneously at this point.
As far as the Second Chance reward organization goes we've already been specifically told that there will be no new Moguls available. Based on that it might be reasonable to assume that anything like Fashionista (player designed costumes) or Registered Lethal Weapon (player designed weapons) will also be off the table for the same reason. Basically the Devs need to limit how much "extra customization" work they are doing just so that they can actually finish the game in a timely manner.
So in a nutshell I'd expect Second Chance to be roughly similar to the original Kickstarter with the notable exception of things like Mogul, Fashionista and/or Registered Lethal Weapon.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
As long as MWM is transparent, gathers data and feedback, and makes a show of obviously and quickly acting (or at least acknowledging they will act) with that data in mind they could launch with less than they have already shown off and people wouldn't be mad.
People will be more excited with a more complete and high quality product, but that isn't the whole picture. A dev studio that shows through speech and especially action that they are involved with and understand the players and the game is something every game community craves.
This is also something many studios struggle with, but can actually be easier for smaller studios since the people doing the work can also be the ones interacting with the community. It also helps that there can be less short term profit motive involved in small studios and the motivation to work on a game is more personal passion.
A recent example for a studio doing a pretty good job of this is ghost ship, the studio making deep rock galactic.
"Red Name" here! :p I'm basically our product release manager (not an official title!) so I can speak with a little authority on this topic.
Lothic has the right of it. No "Second Chance" until Issue #0 is out for our testers. This will have at least the avatar builder tool and an environment to run around in to get a feel of how your system responds etc. Hopefully we will have a chat system in place as well. Powers would be nice, but that's a WIP as well as the main game map, missions, etc.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
So, to clarify: testers will access Issue 0 (under some NDA?), some time will pass, then Second Chance will come, giving anyone with dollars access to Issue 0.x?
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Pretty much. The “testers” are pooled from the original KS and will likely be brought in waves.
I’m not certain about the NDA because people have asked if they’ll be allowed to stream play sessions and. I believe the answer was yes. I reserve the right to be wrong there though.
Second Chance will follow I-0.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I remember something early about the first few waves of testers being under NDA, but when Second Chance comes around, obviously it's floodgate time for streaming ;)
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Testers have signed an NDA. That's authoritative.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
so.....Has testing started?????????cooooool
if not please forget the question, these arent the droids your looking for
Just so you don't read too much into Avel's statement, I can tell you from being involved in several commercial software development projects that having signed NDAs from testers doesn't necessarily mean testing has begun. We used to get all our paperwork sorted with test sites long before the test phase began.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Heh, I had the same reaction :p I doubt it's a slip.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
One can dream though, one can dream..... :P
City of Tabbies advertising: "You will believe that a kitten can fly!"
City of Tabbies, coming Fall 2019!
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
No, testing has not started. I want it to - badly! But the people who WILL be testing have already been signed up under NDA.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
If Ivanhedgehog does not have knowledge of an NDA, but is part of the construction crew tier of the kickstarter (not sure about that but considering how many of the people with the KS badges are...) then perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the people who will be testing [i]first[/i] have signed NDAs?
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I figure that the initial testers will be a small number that systematicly test the client/cc/whatever. I am 99.99999% sure that I will not be in that number, even though I am a kickstarter. I have absolutely no problem with that, the devs need a controlled, calm environment to do this, as I am sure problems will arise and be smashed. I am waiting on pins and needles to here that this has begun, but not much I can do to speed it up. Currently, people are looking at the message from the end of fall and counting on their fingers to guess where things stand. A dev message that isnt lore or artwok will let us know where we stand. Myself, I dont ever read lore, I would rather learn it in the framework of the game, I find it much more interesting and engaging, but then I am funny that way. I certainly hope that the early testers have signed NDAs and are already helping to iron out bugs. The sooner they help the devs launch while retaining what little sanity they have left, the sooner we will all see things.
I remember hearing the first wave will be less than a dozen.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
And ideally those people will be able to devote serious time to it. Like "8 hours a day because it's basically their job" type of time.
Alpha testers need to be serious and dependable and probably most importantly good note takers. We are going to be relying on these people to provide the most important feedback MWM is likely ever going to get about CoT, even more important than once the game is open to more "open beta" test phases.
I'm collectively wishing anyone involved good luck, we're all counting on you...
[youtube=500x300]aB2yqeD0Nus[/youtube]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Begs the question, if 2nd Chance releases with, or shortly after, Issue #0, how long will it be before non-KS, 2nd chance backers will get to jump in? 5k KS backers might make a bit of a line to get in since it will be in waves so I'm just curious if we donate how long before we'd get access?
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I think there won't be too many waves: 10, then 50, then 100, then 1000, then all KS, then bringing in Second Chance.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
It would be nice to know what the actual plan is, no offense. The answer will likely, at least in part, shape the inflow of donations as some may not donate until they can 'login'. I mean, since issue #0 is the justification of the 2nd chance, I can see people waiting to donate until there isnt an x number of months wait until they can actually see what the hype is about.
The answer right now is probably that they dont know, but as long as that information is upfront and clear and transparent sometime before 2nd chance drops that is good enough.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
That's a fair question, but it's something that'll have to wait to be answered once we start making the official Issue 0 announcements and can offer real answers to questions.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
It really depends on how much bandwidth and hardware we have. The first hundred will be relatively quickly, then we may have to do hardware upgrade passes to bring the rest of you in. Or alternate days.
We're going to do our best to give all of you a taste as fast as we can. I can't say more because it will be taken as a promise, and reality tends to laugh at promises.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Oh, I'm sure alternate days would be preferred.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Warcabbit,
Thanks for the input, we as a community appreciate the approach you take towards us. I know this game has been years in development and we don't want to rush out an unfinished product (Anthem) LOL. We all want to eat even if it's at different times. I've been a devout follower of CoT for years at this point and I want to see you and your team succeed.
Nic
-- Nic
Anthem is actually a really good reference for the release vs. not release debate considering they had issues with a bad engine and other development problems but pushed for a release anyway. There's a good article out in the public domain about this, and we can hold it up and say "aren't we glad MWM didn't follow this example".
of Phoenix Rising
Am I
The Emptiness resonates harmonically with this sentiment.
Also: We are well pleased with the length of this thread, which started Wed, 10/19/2016 - 00:06 (Thank you, Nic!)
The Emptiness was saddened when CoX ended and we were thrown into the void. We vibrate anxiously with great anticipation to return from the void and once again retake virtual physical form.
We give much praise to the devs for their hard work and sacrifice, and much thanks to the fans for our love of this project and this coalescing world.
Anthem really isnt that good an example. They pulled devs from all their other works to finish anthem, it impacted their othe revenue streams badly. They couldnt afford to kill off all their other games just to complete this one(looking at swtor)
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