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I was attempting to clarify and provide insight into the systems required and along with that re-re-re-explaining how those work and why we won’t do certain things just in case anyone else got confused.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
How can we be certain it is not part of some sinister plot or nefarious scheme?!
You’ll know if I’m wearing a beard. It’s part of my disguise for a secret ID. But then how would you know it was me?
Muahahahahahahaha!
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Maybe I expressed myself badly but by "skipping" meant that most don't seem to take it into consideration by saying that looking different or having a different name is "enough". To me having a different name but otherwise being treated exactly the same is not much of disguise nor a secret ID. And how do you know exactly what a "secret ID" system will boil down to? At best you can make inferences based on the data available, but nothing says they can't add more systems to support other play styles or even "game modes".
As I said before, just because "heroic/villainous actions" are the main focus of the game does not mean they will be the only activity in the game for its entire lifetime.
Even when in active combat? Yeah, can't see that one being abused. Besides they would have to implement it in a way that it itself doesn't trigger combat in the first place but still being equally efficient.
How would this be different from a standard placate?
Why should this be limited to disguises only? And what does it have to do with disguises in the first place?
I think this would be much better as a faction specific temp power, in that you need high enough rep in that faction (exact rep-level depends on the faction) before you can call on their aid.
Only going to adress shape shifter but in effectively every case that also includes shifting powers, which this one won't handle.
The 'reason for it being secret in the first place' is the problem. The game is not going to include loved ones you need to protect by donning a mask, it's not going to have day jobs that your super persona can't do in tights and it's not going to have an elaborate social sim aspect that would make a secret identity an integral part of the experience. NPC's will react to you based on what you do during combat and missions, so even if they designed a system to allow you to have two separate identities and build NPC relations separately with both it would still be tied up in the main focus of the game design. Let me say that again, NPC responses are a direct result of the combat and quest system which means any secret identity which interacts with NPC reactions would also be tied into the combat and quest system. They cannot be separated without redesigning some core principles of the game.[/quote]
You seem to be very sure that combat is the only "focus" this game will ever have. For one thing quests don't have to include combat elements, I have not heard of anything that would make it mandatory. Second, Tannim have said that if they role out secret ID they will also role out a system for civilian jobs to support a full "civilian life".
So... you have been arguing for a system that can barely, if at all, justify its own existence?
It was addressed, and discussed at length, in this very thread. We moved on because we were told “no” and beating a dead horse is unproductive. Basically the idea of a compromised easy secret ID for role playing was shot down on page 1. Now, a more extensive kind of secret ID that works like stealth is a possibility but it would be years from now if ever. Tannim has expressed that just putting a tag or something as an RP aid isn’t worth bothering with because people can RP just as well without it.
Essentially, the impression I got was that unless it did something cool and impressive it’s not worth the effort (now or ever). I guess I can respect that philosophy.
But again, that’s being “skipped” because it’s a waste of time to discuss it. It’s not going to happen.
*sigh* You are essentially reiterating my point. Most who are now suggesting something as a secret ID solution/ability skips the "problems" of having effectively everything the same about your character, except perhaps name and costume. Having a "secret ID system" that at best call you another name but otherwise still treats exactly the same as your "super ID" [b]does not[/b] make it a "secret ID".
And now I see I missed a word up there that was very important to context, should have been a [i]not[/i] between is and much.
Again, I said combat and [b]quest completion[/b]. Progress will be intricately bound with those two elements. Crafting, reputation, stealth, branching stories, PCC, NPCs and so on. All will be part of the progressive aspect of the game and will need to be balanced just like any power, skill and challenge.
While there may be elements that do not link to the progression of the game, these will be in the form of mini-games and alternate activities which have their own internal progressive elements and will assuredly be small from a design standpoint.
Which is why I keep saying a secret identity system will either have to be small or be a part of the combat and quest completion aspect of the game.
No, I have been saying that treating a secret identity as an ability or power of a character is the best fit for a game that focuses on combat and quest completion for progress. And that even the best fit will not be good enough.
A secret identity system that offers an alternate game play experience goes beyond the scope of the game and would require either an extensive overhaul to the core game or be it's own game unto itself.
Which is exactly what you have been saying. Where we differ is that you think a fully realized secret identity system is something the devs will eventually work on while I think secret identities should be for the players to come up with using the tools already provided.
Go back to the first post I made in response to you (#172) and you will see I was originally just talking about how difficult to implement a secret identity power would be and how it is the best fit for this type of game.
In that case, yes we agree. :)
If it's that integrated with the current progression system then it's not much of a "secret ID" imo. Maybe the beginnings of a disguises system but not a secret ID system.
It's not really my view but from what Tannim has said it appears to be MWM's view/stance on how to do a "proper" secret ID system. And if you are of the idea that secret ID's should be done by the players using existing tools then why would they need any specific abilities at all?
Then you have a very different definition of "secret ID" compared to me since what you are saying lines up much better with a general purpose disguises system in my mind. A disguises system is fairly easy to use as a secret ID system, the reverse is not so easy since, at least in your implementation, it will "limit" secret ID's to a very narrow "usage field" (a.k.a an investigatory aid for your "super persona").
The important thing is to leave the possibility OPEN for future development, rather than blocking it off and deliberately preventing anything of the sort from ever being possible.
Keep the OPTION even if it never gets used or developed.
Disguises are a bit of game mechanical "tech" that can have more than a single function or purpose. Dual (or triple) uses like that increase the Return On Investment (ROI) for developing such systems.
Ideally speaking, Disguises are things that function as camouflage, allowing you to "hide in plain sight" as a function of being able to blend into a crowd (or at least not be as "obviously you" as usual).
Such Disguise systems allow for the common trope of putting on a uniform (take your pick) and being able to go places and do things [i]without being questioned or waylaid[/i] before reaching your objective. Put on a TCPD uniform and you can walk right through police lines (for example), because "you're a police officer too" according to the uniform you're wearing.
Now in a gaming context, one of the things that as a game designer/developer that you'd want to do is LIMIT which factions a PC can Disguise themselves as ... simply so you don't have a situation in which everyone can be anyone, rendering the whole notion of identity meaningless. However, those kinds of limits immediately suggest that there ought to be ways to EARN those Disguise options. How? Simple ... Faction gains. Once you have enough of a faction reputation, you can Disguise your PC as being a member of that faction, resulting in an adjustment on the social reactions to your Disguise.
In the context of this thread, a Secret Identity would most likely be defined in these terms as a Civilian Disguise ... which is what most Secret Identities function as ... so as to "blend in" with the Civilian population.
So that's ONE application of a Disguise system, but crucially that wouldn't be the ONLY use of such a Disguise system. Other uses would involve whatever people can creatively come up with ... kind of like how Costume Design is a competition of creativity that has no purpose in combat, but is DEFINING in terms of identity to the Player(s).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't know how to say 'beyond the scope of the game' any clearer without walls of text.
Either the secret ID 'system' is tied directly to the progression element of the game, in which case it follows the same checks and balances that any other benefit to progress (like powers for example), or it is it's own system in which case it would be a small (from a development standpoint) separate element with it's own progression.
Anything beyond those two require an investment that is not worth the cost.
MWM's stance on a secret ID system seems to be
'It was considered, evaluated and deemed too much effort as well as (for the most part) a conflict with other development goals. If it is ever looked at again it will be years after release.'
Or to put it simply, don't hold your breath.
And some of the tools a player would use to simulate a secret identity would be specific powers like stealth and placate. The example I gave was just a way that MWM could provide all the powers in a single source for players inclined towards a secret identity. A QoL feature.
I have no idea how you would define a 'secret id' because I can't find you ever defining it. Just a bunch of times you say 'that's not a secret id'. That's not an invitation to explain your view because it isn't relevant. A secret id system that isn't tied to the progress aspect or larger than a mini-game is beyond the scope of the games design.
As Tannim has said, they are not designing a superhero sim.
No, they're not. They're designing a Superhero MMORPG- wait a second ... what does "RPG" stand for again?
{feigns cluelessness}
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
And in this RPG, you have the privilege of RPing a . . . wait for it . . . SUPERHERO.
Not his/her alter ego.
'nough said.
RPG means role playing game, but the 'role' part does not mean what you think it means.
Role, in RPG's, mean profession or class or archetype or whatever else they want to call it. It deals with the merits/flaws, stats, abilities and in many cases allowable equipment of the chosen role. Even games which follow a 'classless' system still define the role by what abilities and so forth the character has.
What you are implying is the act of 'role-play' which is not the same thing as a RPG. Role-play means you assume the persona of a character to act out.
While you can role-play in a RPG, it is not a requirement, in fact most RPG's only pay a passing respect to role-play and focus on the rules of a given situation. Ask people who have role-played in a RPG and they will likely have met someone who happily just sits there until it is their turn to roll the dice. The term 'role-play vs roll-play' is because those players exist.
Now I am a fan of role-play over roll-play but I also understand that a video game cannot handle role-play and must deal with roll-play.
At best, all a RPG (any RPG) can offer you is more tools to help you role-play but it cannot have a system to adjudicate it. In the end role-play is in the hands of the player, be it tabletop or computer games.
Now your not clueless anymore.
Excuse my bluntness but who the fuck are you to decide what is and isn't beyond the scope of the game as a whole. MWM has not done a full 100% rejection of the idea for a "full" secret ID system.
Certainly not for a number of years but at some point I think they will need to add more than just new quests, costume pieces, power sets, and areas and then it's possible that this kind of system can become worth the cost.
I know what their stance is, I just don't see half-arsed measures for a secret ID system to be any good idea either. As I said before, a "secret ID system" that can only be used as an aid to your super persona is not much of a "secret ID system".
The way you presented it you made it sound like you wanted new powers specific for this, not just an "easy filter" for already existing and appropriate powers for this kind of situation. However you did mention (for the toggle power at least) possibility for getting access to different quests and responses from factions which would make them "unique" powers since I highly doubt we would get that in the generic pool powers.
It is very much relevant since it establishes a common viewpoint and terminology. To be able to properly communicate using the same terminology and understanding the others viewpoint is a must. While I have not written a full definition I have made mentions of "civilian persona", "super persona" and a few other differentiating factors and thought that was enough to set a difference with a "mere" disguise, though I keep getting reminded that one needs to be overly clear in ones communication on forums.
Secrete ID = The civilian persona and legal person of a super that they use in everyday life. Usually the means to sustain themselves financially. However if we are going to go fully technical (what looks to be beyond the design parameters for this game) then it can also be the super persona.
Disguise = A different "persona" that is most often temporary and adapted to a specific task, not necessarily a legal person. Very often used to aid the super persona in their work.
How anyone can set those two as effectively being interchangeable is beyond me. Sure they can blend in with each other to some degree but in most cases where they do that it's not "everyday life", though that depends highly on their day job.
While they aren't making a sim (requires much more realism then they are going to be able to do currently) it doesn't mean they have to focus almost solely on the combat and investigatory aspect of supers. While they will be the biggest ones bringing in elements that are not so commonly seen in comics and shows/movies does not make it a sim.
Read post 143 in this thread.
I disagree.
I don't think you do know what their stance is but whatever.
You are still not getting what I am saying. I am saying that instead of a fully realized 'secret identity system' the devs focus on small things which will allow the player to role-play the secret identity they want. The best way to do so would be through the use of powers they grouped in a set that lends itself to that idea.
The reason I said the definition was irrelevant was because we are discussing it's application in this game.
In this game the default is your super persona. If a character has a way to change their persona from the default to something new and have the game recognize that new persona then it is a disguise from a game design standpoint.
If the purpose of a secret identity (in the context of the game) is purely for role-play/immersion then it should be done with small QoL features that allow the player to realize their personal vision of their character.
If the purpose of the secret identity is to provide some alternate activities then they should be treated similar to mini-games.
If the purpose of the secret identity is to grant you alternate tactics, abilities or npc/quest/combat options then it should be minor in impact and balanced accordingly.
If the purpose of the secret identity requires more than the above to realize then it goes beyond the scope of the game.
I honestly don't know what this second bold sentence means, it has an odd structure that confuses me. Is it missing a word?
I am not asking the developers to focus solely on the combat and investigation, I am saying that a fully realized secret identity system that you seem to want would include too many elements that are found in sim type games. Unless all your talk about a secret identity and everyday life is just talk.
When you imagine a secret identity system do you picture a switch you flip and all of a sudden you now have a entirely new set of contacts, mission objectives and quest options? Or do you see someone who has to balance their day job with hero work, worry about being discovered, has loved ones to protect and has a lot more trouble changing into their super suit now that phone booths are all but gone?
This thread is full of salt.
[b]Codename :[/b] Doctor Plague
[b]Archetype :[/b] Ranger - Hunter
[b]Primary :[/b] Atrophic Blast (Diseases)
[b]Secondary :[/b] Illusion (Miasmas)
[b]Tertiary :[/b] Undecided
[b]Mastery :[/b] Eliminator
[b]Movement :[/b] Teleportation, Flight
Speaking just for myself (of course) ...
1. Yes, and could be done for game launch (or shortly thereafter).
2. Desired, but could easily be left for after game launch and is something that could be expanded upon slowly over a longer time frame of multiple Issue releases.
3. Beyond scope of what is desired, since that turns into the "Parallel Game" framework that has been objected to already.
4. Completely beyond scope of what is desired.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
How about this:
Save any actual secret ID systems for an expansion, the way CoV was an expansion for CoH. Then they could get the game made and have some time to play with getting it working and getting it integrated properly with all the trimmings and everything tweaked and balanced so it doesn’t break things. :)
????
Reminds me a bit of a thread I made once (https://cityoftitans.com/forum/behind-mask-non-combat-content)
'course it got shot down there with pretty much the same arguments. Nonetheless the Superhero games we had without always felt as stale as reading Batman completely devoid of Bruce Wayne or Superman without anything Clark Kent / Lois Lane / Daily Planet related. Nice for the initial rush (Woah, look; colors! action!) but flat on the depth.
I think the devs where overthinking it in their initial consideration but what do I know; I'm not a dev; I'm just a CB nerd who wants a great CB hero RPG. *shrug* I still look forward to Titans release and if it gets boring too fast it is as it is. And if I get proven wrong by that release all the better :)
Something to consider also is the question of rewards.
If a secret identity system does not give unique rewards, then many players will ignore it for that reason alone.
If a secret identity system DOES give unique rewards, then many players will feel coerced into using it, whether or not it makes any sense for their characters. As with PvP, I suspect that the devs here want to avoid putting people into situations where they feel coerced.
If a secret identity system gives rewards, but they are not unique, then the devs will have to watch closely so that rewards are not attained too easily one way versus the other.
Is that amount of work worth it?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
At that point, you're basically asking if both playing AND making the game are worth the effort (let alone going through the QA process for it all).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Then you don’t do it. It’s that simple. If players need to have a carrot to be interested, if players aren’t showing interest in the system because the system itself is desirable, then it’s a waste of time. No further consideration is needed.
I would say that highly depends on where and how those unique rewards are usable. If they are limited to the secret ID system only then the "coercion factor" will go down significantly, maybe even be effectively removed.
I'm with Lothic and Atama, a feature like this could just feel wrong for many characters, better to not have it and handle it in RP IMO.
The option for a secret identity system will be a fine addition to City of Tabbies somewhere down the line. Incentivizing the system with unique rewards is a splendid idea. If someone chooses not to utilize the system, that should have little to no impact on the rewards available, though.
Certain types of people might feign indignity and shout rubbish about "pay to win", but didn't King Lear also blindly shake his fist at the heavens?
*votes for incentivizing the secret ID system, not for herself but for her trusty sidekick*
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
It would be ok for anyone with at least one alt who has a secret ID, as long as the rewards are account bound. otherwise I'd rather it be RP only.
Honestly, I would say that the secret ID stuff would come up more as an RP thing than anything else, but having a system that runs in the background that the players don't need to think about that offers some kind of reward would be pretty nifty; after all, having to incorporate a system in which you need to stop your time as a hero or villain, the bit you got the game for, to get any substantial reward wouldn't be fun. You'd either have people avoiding it or begrudgingly having to do it depending on the reward for it.
We could adapt something from the original City of Heroes day job system and have different types of bonuses that would build up while you were offline. However, instead of simply having this bonus be based on where you logged off in game, perhaps it is a trait that can be changed so to speak, like slotting in an upgrade into a power or selecting an option from a drop down menu.
Perhaps having selected a public identity would be the base-line, OK for everything reward multiplier that acts as the baseline with a universal bonus to XP gain, drop rate and currency gain, or perhaps a slight boost to how much your alignment shifts when you are doing your thing (since your identity is public, people may be able to or willing to scrutinise your actions more, so to speak.)
Selecting your secret identity as, say, a Private Investigator, Investigative Reporter or something with a similar bent towards sleuthing and information gathering would instead provide a substantial boost to the drop rates of clues to get mission arcs.
[b]Edit:[/b] Perhaps, simplifying it a bit, you could have categories of jobs that have their bonuses listed, and the player can, at their discretion elaborate on it in their profile.
Outside of this though, I don't see anything that could work much besides simply making a mention in your profile that your identity is secret. I guess the only other thing I can think of, maybe as a fun little thing when the game really hits its stride would be to add unique animations to phone booths or other little nooks and crannies around the city where a player could change costume. (this would not take away from the function of simply entering a menu and doing it on the spot, of course, but might be somewhat entertaining).
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