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Secret identities

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andyosiris
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Secret identities

This game has been a long coming but from what I've seen it's well worth the wait.

Sorry if this has been addressed somewhere else and I just can't find it, but I saw mention somewhere of secret identities in this game. I always wished COH or CO had that concept, and have come up with some ideas on his it could be done, but I would like to know if and how City of Titans will handle the concept.

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Tannim's spoken to this at

Tannim's spoken to this at length before in other threads but I'll try and summarize.

They've had multiple proposals and have looked at a lot of options. It was never fun, or would require basically making a 2nd game.

It it unfortunately not likely to happen.

Redlynne
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I still keep thinking that

I still keep thinking that Secret Identities could be used as a sort of "stealth the mission" variant for some content, where the point of the exercise is to use your Secret Identity to infiltrate {fill in the blank} and obtain {mission objective}.

Note that this kind of thing is NOT all that different from some of the Freakshow Costume Temp Power stuff that we had back in City of Heroes, where you'd activate a Temp Power and all of a sudden the Freakshow wouldn't attack you because they thought you were one of them.

Point being that you don't need a different GAME to pull that kind of thing off ... but you do need to use a different CONCEPT for what a particular mission is supposed to be about, aside from doing a Defeat All styled beatdown extravaganza.

Mind you ... it would still be possible to "blend" the two styles of game experience together in a single mission. Something like where you use your Secret Identity to get into a "place" and then work your way to the "far" side of the map to obtain a Mission Objective ... but then a bunch of mobs storm the place and you need to switch from your Secret Identity over to your Super Identity and then fight your way back out to the Mission Entrance (possibly including a Defeat All objective as part of the "exit strategy").

So I'm of the opinion that it CAN be done ... but ideally speaking it would be more of a Solo Mission kind of thing done more for storytelling purposes than a Group Mission kind of thing where the point is combat action.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I still keep thinking that Secret Identities could be used as a sort of "stealth the mission" variant for some content, where the point of the exercise is to use your Secret Identity to infiltrate {fill in the blank} and obtain {mission objective}.

Note that this kind of thing is NOT all that different from some of the Freakshow Costume Temp Power stuff that we had back in City of Heroes, where you'd activate a Temp Power and all of a sudden the Freakshow wouldn't attack you because they thought you were one of them.

Point being that you don't need a different GAME to pull that kind of thing off ... but you do need to use a different CONCEPT for what a particular mission is supposed to be about, aside from doing a Defeat All styled beatdown extravaganza.

Mind you ... it would still be possible to "blend" the two styles of game experience together in a single mission. Something like where you use your Secret Identity to get into a "place" and then work your way to the "far" side of the map to obtain a Mission Objective ... but then a bunch of mobs storm the place and you need to switch from your Secret Identity over to your Super Identity and then fight your way back out to the Mission Entrance (possibly including a Defeat All objective as part of the "exit strategy").

So I'm of the opinion that it CAN be done ... but ideally speaking it would be more of a Solo Mission kind of thing done more for storytelling purposes than a Group Mission kind of thing where the point is combat action.

Possible yes. It iisnt a “secret ID” of each individual player - we would need to assign the “ID” and then it would only be temporary.

For it to be based on the player’s cocept and be an actual system to use more than once - well that is where we get into problems. As we build out all the necessary systems and the ways they interact with others is where we get into so much effort we are making another entire game.

Making it a one off temp mission that isn’t really the secret ID “but is supposed to be” isn’t really a secret ID and certainly not worth the effort to fake it to the point where it might work as one. Isn’t worth the effort - it would t be fun as an actual secret ID.

Anything like this would most likely fall into the freak show example.


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I don’t like the Secret ID

I don’t like the Secret ID concept. I’ll explain why.

Let me go to the current Super MMO that I’ve played the most which is still running, Champions Online. I have 4 characters in CO...

One is a fire blaster who flies around in a power suit. His secret ID would be his alter ego, a scientist and engineer; a literal rocket scientist who built the suit.

Another is a celestial healer with magic powers who transforms from a normal guy into a mystical superhero. His alter ego would be the kind-hearted social worker.

Then I have a super-strong beetle-like robot. Who is a robot and has no alter ego.

My last one is a ghostly swordsman who is haunting a pair of swords. Out of combat he is invisible (the Stealth aura) and in-combat he is a swirling purple and black ghostly silhouette wielding swords. His “alter ego” is a pair of inanimate objects.

A day job doesn’t work for every character concept. If I played those characters in CoT, only half of them would make sense with a Secret ID system. Which meant I would then have to choose between missing out on extra content and potential rewards with these characters, or compromise with them and change their backstories to be able to shoehorn an everyman alternate for them.

I really don’t like that. I already have to compromise with the games we have now because of limited themes/power sets (do you want ice powers, well now you’re a tank). This game is supposed to be giving unprecedented freedom with aesthetic decoupling and flexible power sets, let’s not ruin it by putting in a game mode that limits what kinds of characters we can be.

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While I didn't really care

While I didn't really care for the implementation, the CoH "dayjobs" bit was an acceptable method of putting secret IDs into the game without actually using secret IDs.

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As per Atama per I don't

As per Atama I don't really like the idea of a secret ID "system" that would force you to play a certain way in order to get an in-game benefit. Frankly I tolerated the CoH "Day Job" system because it essentially only happened while you were logged off, but it still didn't strictly fit with the character concepts of most of my CoH characters. Basically if the Day Job system didn't give my characters badges or in-game benefits I wouldn't have bothered.

I'd mostly be in favor of secret ID features that would be primarily cosmetic in nature. In this context I use the word "cosmetic" in that there would be no overt in-game bonuses/buffs for using it. That alone should make it relatively easy for the Devs to implement because it would require no "tinkering" with game stats or combat systems.

The game is already going to provide for multiple costume slots - that feature alone is like 80% of what we'd need to effectively roleplay secret IDs. With dedicated secret ID costume slots you could go one step further by being able to give individual slots their own local name. For instance if you were playing Superman you could have a dedicated Clark Kent costume slot and NPCs around you would call you Clark Kent instead of Superman while using that slot. A dedicated secret ID costume slot could also have a "toggle powers" power switch so that you could choose to force your character to have no super powers while in secret ID mode. Small things like this could be added to this game without having to create "an entirely additional mini-game" for it as Devs like Tannim have hyperbolically claimed.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

blacke4dawn
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I still keep thinking that Secret Identities could be used as a sort of "stealth the mission" variant for some content, where the point of the exercise is to use your Secret Identity to infiltrate {fill in the blank} and obtain {mission objective}.

Note that this kind of thing is NOT all that different from some of the Freakshow Costume Temp Power stuff that we had back in City of Heroes, where you'd activate a Temp Power and all of a sudden the Freakshow wouldn't attack you because they thought you were one of them.

Point being that you don't need a different GAME to pull that kind of thing off ... but you do need to use a different CONCEPT for what a particular mission is supposed to be about, aside from doing a Defeat All styled beatdown extravaganza.

Mind you ... it would still be possible to "blend" the two styles of game experience together in a single mission. Something like where you use your Secret Identity to get into a "place" and then work your way to the "far" side of the map to obtain a Mission Objective ... but then a bunch of mobs storm the place and you need to switch from your Secret Identity over to your Super Identity and then fight your way back out to the Mission Entrance (possibly including a Defeat All objective as part of the "exit strategy").

So I'm of the opinion that it CAN be done ... but ideally speaking it would be more of a Solo Mission kind of thing done more for storytelling purposes than a Group Mission kind of thing where the point is combat action.

What you have presented here is not so much "secrete ID" as much as it is just plain old "disguise" to me.

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I agree with Lothic.

I agree with Lothic.
It doesn't need to have new fantastic and great functions. It is possible to use the current system to tweak it.
Add to the slots a variable, like 'idName' which is an optional parameter in needed methods.
Of course, it would take some hours more to tweak the necessary parts.(Maybe 40 of working hours per Dev) But it might enhance other future works.
If you give slots idNames, it would be possible to implement a search engine. So the amount of slots could get increased and the handling might be easier.
More attributes something gets, the more work, sure. However, it also rises the uniqueness of an object and therefore maintenance for future error handling.

Sorry drifted away.
What I wanted to say:
We got slots, add a opportunity to assign a name to them.
We get greeted by a name, use the name of the slot to indicate if it's a secret ID or not.
We don't need to have a second 'Second Life'. It's even better that way.
The slot would need two new attributes though... A flag (bool) and the text (string)

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Kuraikari wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:

I agree with Lothic.
It doesn't need to have new fantastic and great functions. It is possible to use the current system to tweak it.
Add to the slots a variable, like 'idName' which is an optional parameter in needed methods.
Of course, it would take some hours more to tweak the necessary parts.(Maybe 40 of working hours per Dev) But it might enhance other future works.
If you give slots idNames, it would be possible to implement a search engine. So the amount of slots could get increased and the handling might be easier.
More attributes something gets, the more work, sure. However, it also rises the uniqueness of an object and therefore maintenance for future error handling.

Sorry drifted away.
What I wanted to say:
We got slots, add a opportunity to assign a name to them.
We get greeted by a name, use the name of the slot to indicate if it's a secret ID or not.
We don't need to have a second 'Second Life'. It's even better that way.
The slot would need two new attributes though... A flag (bool) and the text (string)

Obviously the types of things I'm suggesting here would still take some extra time to develop and may not be something that could be in the game by launch time.

But compared to the time and effort involved in the "uber-huge Day Job-y" type vision Tannim has my suggestions here are trivial in scope which make them far more likely to be doable/possible for CoT.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I think I can see where

I think I can see where Tannim is coming from, though.

Anything they do short of the "mini-game" is going to be seen as half assed, judging by what people are asking for.

Best to say for now that it's just not possible, especially since the rest of the game isn't even in place yet.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:

I agree with Lothic.
It doesn't need to have new fantastic and great functions. It is possible to use the current system to tweak it.
Add to the slots a variable, like 'idName' which is an optional parameter in needed methods.
Of course, it would take some hours more to tweak the necessary parts.(Maybe 40 of working hours per Dev) But it might enhance other future works.
If you give slots idNames, it would be possible to implement a search engine. So the amount of slots could get increased and the handling might be easier.
More attributes something gets, the more work, sure. However, it also rises the uniqueness of an object and therefore maintenance for future error handling.

Sorry drifted away.
What I wanted to say:
We got slots, add a opportunity to assign a name to them.
We get greeted by a name, use the name of the slot to indicate if it's a secret ID or not.
We don't need to have a second 'Second Life'. It's even better that way.
The slot would need two new attributes though... A flag (bool) and the text (string)

Obviously the types of things I'm suggesting here would still take some extra time to develop and may not be something that could be in the game by launch time.

But compared to the time and effort involved in the "uber-huge Day Job-y" type vision Tannim has my suggestions here are trivial in scope which make them far more likely to be doable/possible for CoT.

Of course. I wouldn't want them to that now. I think it's not yet a real needed function.
I just wanted to give the devs possible advantages and maybe even ideas for the future. The might've already thought of that but aren't sure if people would like it, so I also said that not everyone needs a huge new shiny secret id system with daily jobs and other stuff.

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Lothic
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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I think I can see where Tannim is coming from, though.

Sadly I do too. He's apparently stuck on thinking the "Secret ID" system of CoT must be a gigantic sub-section of the game or it can't exist in any form. I simply don't think those are the only two choices we have.

warlocc wrote:

Anything they do short of the "mini-game" is going to be seen as half assed, judging by what people are asking for.

Best to say for now that it's just not possible, especially since the rest of the game isn't even in place yet.

I'm personally asking for something less than the "full mini-game treatment" because A) I don't think it's absolutely necessary and B) it's clearly a sticking point for the likes of Tannim. Again you folks are saying the Secret ID system of CoT must either be "huge" or "nothing". I happen to think there's a large amount of room in-between those two extremes.

Compromise is EVERYTHING when it comes to games like this. If we can't have the huge mini-game version I'd still rather have a few relatively simple Secret ID oriented QoL features than nothing at all.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I can see some aspects where

I can see some aspects where it can be used. Say you are more of a violent vigilante type character, the police contacts wouldn't want to speak to you; however, if you approached them in your secret identity, you may be able to get some info. (although police should not be discussing too much with average citizens). There could also be an aspect that if you choose a profession for you secret identity, you could get some ideas for sub missions. For instance, a person in the law field could get a tip from a policeman or a journalist could get something from an NPC reporter.

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

I can see some aspects where it can be used. Say you are more of a violent vigilante type character, the police contacts wouldn't want to speak to you; however, if you approached them in your secret identity, you may be able to get some info. (although police should not be discussing too much wit'ch average citizens). There could also be an aspect that if you choose a profession for you secret identity, you could get some ideas for sub missions. For instance, a person in the law field could get a tip from a policeman or a journalist could get something from an NPC reporter.

Everything you said here sounds cool, but it also would very much be a part of the "gigantic sub-system" version of a Secret ID system which people like warlocc and Tannim are hung up on. Obviously a system that was able to do what you're implying on a global basis would be rather complex indeed.

On the other hand getting a few QoL features for our multiple costume slots would be far, far less convoluted. Again it might not be as "cool or fancy" as what you're suggesting here but in the grand scheme of things features that might only take a few hours to implement are far more likely to actually happen than those that would easily take months.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I do see some neat ideas here

I do see some neat ideas here about secret identities and I can easily envision some missions that revolve about a secret identity in some respect but the real issue I see is that the secret identity isn't a requirement. Not all heroes have a secret identity. Yes, some do and for some it is a large part of who they are/become.

However, not all do and I have a hard time imagining a way to incorporate the secret identity system gracefully enough that the role-play crowd will enjoy it while those that don't want the feature won't see it as a nuisance. To me it seems it would have to either carry no weight in gameplay except for those particular missions in which it plays a role OR you attach some sort of slight bonus like the COH Dayjobs did which personally I really didn't like for a few reasons.

I think this is the fine line over the issue. How to incorporate the idea such that it feels right for those that want it without seeming required by those that do not want it? How to be sure its something a significant range of the player-base will enjoy. How much value does it add to the game? Does it make the game more fun or not...

Ultimately to me a secret identity mechanism is a subsystem dedicated largely to role players, which is fine but shouldn't really have any significant gameplay bonuses attached to it except perhaps the ability to get some mission/mission arc that one wouldn't have access to otherwise. It's not like players won't get to experience those missions simply in teaming up so big deal if they didn't get the mission themselves. Just so long as no one has to have a secret identity for in-game bonuses then I really don't see a problem or overly complex issue. If the RP crowd likes it and it doesn't affect my gaming ability well fine let em have it. I don't see this as a feature that needs to be available right out of the gate either, so if they are gonna try to make it a tool available to the RP crowd and it's not a whole sub-game then incorporate it whenever. Now, if in order to make it valuable (more than strictly cosmetic) it becomes something that everyone has to be vested in to some degree in order for the mechanics to work properly well then I do see the problem of complexity rivaling an entire sub-game coming into play.

Tough choice but for me I would forgo the secret identities system until a later (post-release) date when more resources are available to redress the issue down the line.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Lothic
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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

I do see some neat ideas here about secret identities and I can easily envision some missions that revolve about a secret identity in some respect but the real issue I see is that the secret identity isn't a requirement. Not all heroes have a secret identity. Yes, some do and for some it is a large part of who they are/become.

This is a fundamental point: Not all characters have a Superman/Clark Kent Secret ID dynamic therefore that should never be a "requirement" for the game no matter what CoT does to support the idea. Secret IDs should always remain a "cosmetic RP" concept.

Now that does not preclude the idea of having a "temporary disguise" for a mission like the one Redlynne mentioned earlier in the thread. The key is that ANY character can use a temporary disguise to get through a specific mission regardless if they have a secret ID or not.

As fun as it might be to have a Secret IDs provide a direct in-game effect versus NPCs it simply would always be a "non-starter" because it would essentially REQUIRE players to play with Secret IDs in order to enjoy the percentage of game content that would require it. That's basically why I would implore the Devs to not even worry about creating a huge mini-game to support the idea in the first place. That's the completely wrong way to be thinking about how to handle Secret IDs by default.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
rookslide wrote:

I do see some neat ideas here about secret identities and I can easily envision some missions that revolve about a secret identity in some respect but the real issue I see is that the secret identity isn't a requirement. Not all heroes have a secret identity. Yes, some do and for some it is a large part of who they are/become.

Yep not everyone is going to want to design their characters to have a Superman/Clark Kent Secret ID dynamic therefore that should never be a "requirement" for the game no matter what CoT does to support the idea. Secret IDs should always remain a "cosmetic RP" concept.

Now that does not preclude the idea of having a "temporary disguise" for a mission like the one Redlynne mentioned earlier in the thread. The key is that ANY character can use a temporary disguise to get through a specific mission regardless if they have a secret ID or not.

As fun as it might be to have a Secret IDs provide a direct in-game effect versus NPCs it simply would always be a "non-starter" because it would essentially REQUIRE players to play with Secret IDs in order to enjoy the percentage of game content that would require it. That's basically why I would implore the Devs to not even worry about creating a huge mini-game to support it the idea in the first place. That's the completely wrong way to be thinking about how to handle Secret IDs by default.

+1

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See what I mean?

See what I mean?

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

See what I mean?

Right but what I suggested (a few QoL RP features for costume slots) is so far LESS COMPLICATED than what we BOTH agree is too difficult that it's not even funny. You're still thinking in the mode of "if we can't have the super-complex version of a Secret ID system then we cannot have ANY Secret ID features at all". This is not a binary situation and reasonable compromises can be implemented.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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So I’ve been thinking, what

So I’ve been thinking, what if there is a Secret ID costume slot you can name. Then a command to swap into that slot. You change to whatever the costume is for that slot, and you get a tag on your displayed name.

For example, let’s say your hero’s name is Captain Clutch and you are in the super group called the Fine Fellas. When people see you in-game, they’d see a guy in a cape and spandex, and floating over his head:

Captain Clutch
{Fine Fellas}

Your Secret ID slot costume makes you look like a regular guy in slacks and a polo shirt wearing glasses, and you name the slot Bobby Clamp. When you swap to your Secret ID, people now see an ordinary guy in business casual clothes with this floating over his head:

Bobby Clamp
AKA Captain Clutch
{Fine Fellas}

It’s just there for RP purposes. NPCs won’t react differently to you, your powers don’t change, etc. And your secret identity isn’t really “secret”; people will know who you are from your tag and they’ll still message you, group with you, and so on from your hero’s name. It’s just there if people want to RP that they’re in a civilian guise.

I expect this wouldn’t take much to implement and it gives RP folks a tool to play with, and doesn’t make anyone else feel like they absolutely need to incorporate an alter ego to not miss out on mechanical benefits.

What do folks think about something like that?

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

So I’ve been thinking, what if there is a Secret ID costume slot you can name. Then a command to swap into that slot. You change to whatever the costume is for that slot, and you get a tag on your displayed name.

For example, let’s say your hero’s name is Captain Clutch and you are in the super group called the Fine Fellas. When people see you in-game, they’d see a guy in a cape and spandex, and floating over his head:

Captain Clutch
{Fine Fellas}

Your Secret ID slot costume makes you look like a regular guy in slacks and a polo shirt wearing glasses, and you name the slot Bobby Clamp. When you swap to your Secret ID, people now see an ordinary guy in business casual clothes with this floating over his head:

Bobby Clamp
AKA Captain Clutch
{Fine Fellas}

It’s just there for RP purposes. NPCs won’t react differently to you, your powers don’t change, etc. And your secret identity isn’t really “secret”; people will know who you are from your tag and they’ll still message you, group with you, and so on from your hero’s name. It’s just there if people want to RP that they’re in a civilian guise.

I expect this wouldn’t take much to implement and it gives RP folks a tool to play with, and doesn’t make anyone else feel like they absolutely need to incorporate an alter ego to not miss out on mechanical benefits.

What do folks think about something like that?

I like it... especially since this is more or less what I was talking about back when I first posted to this thread. I didn't even originally "come up" with the idea - people have been suggesting essentially what you just said here as a way to "implement" Secret IDs in CoT for years now. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

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I'm wondering if body

I'm wondering if body information is tied to the costume slot especially for a feature like this. It seems to me it would have to in order to support heroes that have a very different shape between hero and civilian mode. Shape shifters and Shazam come to mind.

In other news, I'm reminded that everything in a game represents some other thing that is not. As Lothic has mentioned "QOL", I'm thinking a light set of features to support secret identity RP could be a great addition post release.

No offense to Tannim, but I'm wondering if he's over thinking the idea or if he sees something I don't that requires it to be as complex as a mini game.

Tannim, feel free to further illuminate if you are inclined and allowed.

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Here is the issue: regardless

Here is the issue: regardless of your costume and name plate - the world will recognize your “secret id” for your super ID’s exploits.

It is literally useless outside of specific locations and limited to RP purposes only.


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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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It might be cool to explore

It might be cool to explore in the future. One thing a secret identity would do is allow you to walk around without a bunch of enemies running up and attacking you. Also, I think it would be neat if your secret identity's "job" gave you access to certain resources others with different jobs wouldn't have. Like, for example, a doctor could use a hospital lab to make serums that boost his health in combat. The SI part would be that to make the serums you have to physically go to the hospital in the form of your secret identity. While you're there you get asked to do doctor stuff (child with broken arm just brought in) and doing them gives you points towards making those things. These little mini non combat missions wouldn't be any more than walking up to patients and pressing a button. But it would sort of give your character a life outside of combat, which would affect combat if you decided to do it. Since the secret identity missions would only be in one building it would keep it from taking over the game.

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Wow, you are fast.

Wow, you are fast.

OK, so it sounds like it will impact everything from environmental dialogue ("did you hear what so-and-so did?) to what missions a contact will give and everything in between like whether a post operation hit team will recognize you. I could see how that could be a ton of work to do right with only a minor value.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Here is the issue: regardless of your costume and name plate - the world will recognize your “secret id” for your super ID’s exploits.

It is literally useless outside of specific locations and limited to RP purposes only.

Yeah? So what? Who actually said that a Secret ID system MUST dynamically interact with the NPCs? You've gone and made what could have been a simple molehill into the Mt. Everest of challenges for yourself. No wonder you're just throwing your hands up in the air and instantly giving up on it.

You've apparently already given up on ANY kind of Secret ID system due mostly to your lack of vision. I'm simply asking for you to reconsider a version of it that would be much easier for you to possibly accomplish.

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

Wow, you are fast.

OK, so it sounds like it will impact everything from environmental dialogue ("did you hear what so-and-so did?) to what missions a contact will give and everything in between like whether a post operation hit team will recognize you. I could see how that could be a ton of work to do right with only a minor value.

Yeah that would be ton of work if that was the ONLY WAY Secret IDs could possibly work. Unfortunately I'm not as single minded about this issue as Tannim appears to be.

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Yeah I’m not debating this

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

It's sad when a Dev decides to be this closed minded about his own game...

If you can't see the benefit of being able to "name" character slots so that RPers can at least RP secret IDs (again because you've already told us you aren't giving us a "real" Secret ID system) then I'm not sure what to think.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

It's sad when a Dev decides to be this closed minded about his own game...

Move only had this conversation and evade countless times in the past. I don’t have time nor patience to entertain ideas that have been gone over multiple times.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

It's not so much the inclusion of those QoL features but rather the potential presentation/marketing around it. Presenting/marketing it would have to make it explicitly clear that it is limited to RP only so even mentioning having anything close to a "secret ID system" would most likely have too many people (and reviewers) go in with too high expectations and then get disappointed by the lack of a "system" at all. At best they could probably present/market it as a few generic RP features but then comes the problem of explaining of why those features were included, what purpose do they serve, without making it sound like they are part of a "secret ID system". Marketing is a huge minefield and it's very easy to take a wrong step.

This is probably also why even talking about it as a "secret ID system" gets a categorical "no" from MWM.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

It's sad when a Dev decides to be this closed minded about his own game...

Move only had this conversation and evade countless times in the past. I don’t have time nor patience to entertain ideas that have been gone over multiple times.

*sigh*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

Ok so how about that one costume slot actually works as a secret? Remove all the visible identifiers and if they let their ID slip that’s on them.

Not sure about any other practical uses and a reporting system will have to be in place for obvious reasons but still perhaps this would be an easy way to go. Just disconnect everything that would normally be superhero activity from the secret ID slot except some of those mishes they could pick up as a non-hero.

Rp’ers have a secret ID and those that don’t use it don’t have to...

Personally I agree it doesn’t add much value but it seems an easy enough solution and one that could be added to later. Still not at release necessarily but wouldn’t take long after things get rolling and more resources start flowing...

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

Out of pure curiosity:
What were the first drafts of the system?
I see what you want there, something like Superman doesn't know that Bruce Wayne is Batman. But, not everyone needs to have it as a secret. Like Iron Man gave a F*** about it and just said it casually in an interview.

So... What if you gave them a white list. Everyone on it sees the name as this (which is now stolen (sorry))

Barry Allen
AKA The Flash
{Justice League}

But otherwise just :
Barry Allen

So there would be three states:

Super ID
Secret ID
Secret ID exposed

This is still hard. But don't think about jobs yet, the only thing 'needed' would be just that.
Or do you want the same thing as Security Keys? With a public and a private key?

01000101 01010010 01010010 01001111 01010010 00111010 00100000 00110100 00110000 00110100 00001101 00001010 01001000 01100101 01110010 01101111 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110101 01101110 01100100 00100001

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

It's sad when a Dev decides to be this closed minded about his own game...

If you can't see the benefit of being able to "name" character slots so that RPers can at least RP secret IDs (again because you've already told us you aren't giving us a "real" Secret ID system) then I'm not sure what to think.

I'm not really an RP'er so please explain why they would "need" (as you imply it) this feature to be able to RP having a secret ID?

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

It's not so much the inclusion of those QoL features but rather the potential presentation/marketing around it. Presenting/marketing it would have to make it explicitly clear that it is limited to RP only so even mentioning having anything close to a "secret ID system" would most likely have too many people (and reviewers) go in with too high expectations and then get disappointed by the lack of a "system" at all. At best they could probably present/market it as a few generic RP features but then comes the problem of explaining of why those features were included, what purpose do they serve, without making it sound like they are part of a "secret ID system". Marketing is a huge minefield and it's very easy to take a wrong step.

This is probably also why even talking about it as a "secret ID system" gets a categorical "no" from MWM.

Tannim clearly has decided that "Secret IDs" can only mean one thing for COT - a huge unwieldy sub-system that involves NPCs and missions being totally disrupted throughout the entire game. No wonder he's reluctant to entertain that idea; if I were him I'd be frustrated talking about it too.

I simply think it's sad that he can't be bothered to consider a reasonable compromise to that that would be much, much easier for him to implement.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

Ok so how about that one costume slot actually works as a secret? Remove all the visible identifiers and if they let their ID slip that’s on them.

Not sure about any other practical uses and a reporting system will have to be in place for obvious reasons but still perhaps this would be an easy way to go. Just disconnect everything that would normally be superhero activity from the secret ID slot except some of those mishes they could pick up as a non-hero.

Rp’ers have a secret ID and those that don’t use it don’t have to...

Personally I agree it doesn’t add much value but it seems an easy enough solution and one that could be added to later. Still not at release necessarily but wouldn’t take long after things get rolling and more resources start flowing...

That is when we get into the territory if how this interacts with other systems in the game and what the impact it would have. Building that out to resolve everything related is just...making an entire game around the secret.

This and also what it doesn’t represent and handle.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
rookslide wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

Ok so how about that one costume slot actually works as a secret? Remove all the visible identifiers and if they let their ID slip that’s on them.

Not sure about any other practical uses and a reporting system will have to be in place for obvious reasons but still perhaps this would be an easy way to go. Just disconnect everything that would normally be superhero activity from the secret ID slot except some of those mishes they could pick up as a non-hero.

Rp’ers have a secret ID and those that don’t use it don’t have to...

Personally I agree it doesn’t add much value but it seems an easy enough solution and one that could be added to later. Still not at release necessarily but wouldn’t take long after things get rolling and more resources start flowing...

That is when we get into the territory if how this interacts with other systems in the game and what the impact it would have. Building that out to resolve everything related is just...making an entire game around the secret.

Yeah I know there is a lot more going on in the coding and all the subsystems than I can possibly know about. I mean none of us know how the modules and systems are all interwoven so it seems easy from our perspective but I know nothing is ever as easy as it sounds. It just seemed like an interesting thought but I kinda figured it would be a bit painstaking for what you get out of it. Maybe down the line one day... If there is more value to warrant the effort needed.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

It's sad when a Dev decides to be this closed minded about his own game...

If you can't see the benefit of being able to "name" character slots so that RPers can at least RP secret IDs (again because you've already told us you aren't giving us a "real" Secret ID system) then I'm not sure what to think.

I'm not really an RP'er so please explain why they would "need" (as you imply it) this feature to be able to RP having a secret ID?

To begin with nobody NEEDS anything that has anything to do with "Sercet IDs" in this game. Period.

But considering that Secret IDs are a common concept throughout comic books it would likely be nice if CoT could at least "give a nod" to the concept in some form or fashion. If RPers could assign a unique "name plate" to each costume slot then they could at least enjoy a tiny sense of the idea.

Is it necessary? Of course not - it'd be totally a cosmetic QoL thing.
Could the game be successful without it? Obviously yes.

But again in light of the fact that Tannim wants absolutely nothing to do with a "full-featured" Secret ID system I'm finding it simply childish that he's not willing to accept this reasonable compromise.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah I’m not debating this issue with you Lothic. A secret ID is only secret if it actually works like an actual secret. If the world NPCs react to your secret ID as they would your super ID, then you are just in fact still your super ID.

It is a role play convenience only that has such extremely limited use that you can still do anyway without a name plate change, IE “role play”. Nothing stops you from role playing your secret ID using a comstumenslot do your own as is if it changes nothing about your character.

Ok so how about that one costume slot actually works as a secret? Remove all the visible identifiers and if they let their ID slip that’s on them.

Not sure about any other practical uses and a reporting system will have to be in place for obvious reasons but still perhaps this would be an easy way to go. Just disconnect everything that would normally be superhero activity from the secret ID slot except some of those mishes they could pick up as a non-hero.

Rp’ers have a secret ID and those that don’t use it don’t have to...

Personally I agree it doesn’t add much value but it seems an easy enough solution and one that could be added to later. Still not at release necessarily but wouldn’t take long after things get rolling and more resources start flowing...

While they wouldn't need to make an explicit secret ID they would still have to make the basic system for a "secret ID system" by having one costume slot have a different "ID" (any kind of ID) compared to the rest. A.k.a the game would have to react differently to you based upon which costume slot you have active, and that system is -from what I can read- the major thing they have against a "secret ID system" since it is not an easy thing to implement.

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Again everyone here that isn

Again everyone here that isn't me is way, way overthinking this issue.

Stop worrying about making this thing work for NPCs and just make "Secret IDs" a RP thing. Accept the reasonable compromise for what it is... reasonable.

Tannim claims the "big/fancy" version of a Secret ID subsystem is too hard to do so let's stop trying to do that shall we?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

It's not so much the inclusion of those QoL features but rather the potential presentation/marketing around it. Presenting/marketing it would have to make it explicitly clear that it is limited to RP only so even mentioning having anything close to a "secret ID system" would most likely have too many people (and reviewers) go in with too high expectations and then get disappointed by the lack of a "system" at all. At best they could probably present/market it as a few generic RP features but then comes the problem of explaining of why those features were included, what purpose do they serve, without making it sound like they are part of a "secret ID system". Marketing is a huge minefield and it's very easy to take a wrong step.

This is probably also why even talking about it as a "secret ID system" gets a categorical "no" from MWM.

Tannim clearly has decided that "Secret IDs" can only mean one thing for COT - a huge unwieldy sub-system that involves NPCs and missions being totally disrupted throughout the entire game. No wonder he's reluctant to entertain that idea; if I were him I'd be frustrated talking about it too.

I simply think it's sad that he can't be bothered to consider a reasonable compromise to that that would be much, much easier for him to implement.

But that’s consistent. MWM doesn’t seem willing to compromise on many things. Which is both a flaw and strength. No second crowd funding attempt without an Avatar Builder. UE4 is now available, throw out a lot of progress to hop on a new engine which sets back release but works better in the long run. No super-early-release access like Valiance Online did (thank heavens).

MWM goes all-in on everything. If it can’t be done right, don’t bother. I don’t think it’s a lack of vision, it’s an unwillingness to give in and abandon the vision they have, to slack on principles. And while that’s going to be frustrating at times, I think it’s going to have a better product in the end.

It’s quite possible that a half-hearted Secret ID will cause people to be more upset than none at all. Like putting ice cream on the menu that’s bland soft serve vanilla. You’d rather be the restaurant with no ice cream than one with bad ice cream. I think Tannim has a good point and MWM is making the right decision, despite what I’d suggested before (and I know my suggestion wasn’t 100% original).

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I don't think Tannim fully

I don't think Tannim fully against a working secret ID system. And I don't think it's his solely condemning of the idea, nor his sole decision of this.
They (the devs) want to create a game they want to play. So the idea of just a visual thing, without any effects, that would be two things:

Boring for the common ground, AKA non-rp players
Too much of a hassle for a too small impact

So what they would want, in a perfect game/world where everything's possible:

Use of a secret ID in an active situation.
NPCs reactions should be different whatever ID using
Maybe even cloaked from other players.
Have some kind of second life to make it both interesting as more realistic.

Until we know what the real intention of their idea of that system was, we couldn't possibly understand why it's not possible, to have such functionality. We can assume, but not 'know'. As it'd need a clear answer.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

It's not so much the inclusion of those QoL features but rather the potential presentation/marketing around it. Presenting/marketing it would have to make it explicitly clear that it is limited to RP only so even mentioning having anything close to a "secret ID system" would most likely have too many people (and reviewers) go in with too high expectations and then get disappointed by the lack of a "system" at all. At best they could probably present/market it as a few generic RP features but then comes the problem of explaining of why those features were included, what purpose do they serve, without making it sound like they are part of a "secret ID system". Marketing is a huge minefield and it's very easy to take a wrong step.

This is probably also why even talking about it as a "secret ID system" gets a categorical "no" from MWM.

Tannim clearly has decided that "Secret IDs" can only mean one thing for COT - a huge unwieldy sub-system that involves NPCs and missions being totally disrupted throughout the entire game. No wonder he's reluctant to entertain that idea; if I were him I'd be frustrated talking about it too.

I simply think it's sad that he can't be bothered to consider a reasonable compromise to that that would be much, much easier for him to implement.

If custom nameplate is the only thing you are talking about then why only present it as "secret ID"? I can think of one other scenario that could benefit from such a system that has nothing to do with secret ID's, and I'm sure there are more.

Maybe it is an automatic reaction to just say no when talking about "secret ID" in any form, but has "custom nameplate" presented only as "custom nameplate" been categorically rejected by the devs?

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

It's not so much the inclusion of those QoL features but rather the potential presentation/marketing around it. Presenting/marketing it would have to make it explicitly clear that it is limited to RP only so even mentioning having anything close to a "secret ID system" would most likely have too many people (and reviewers) go in with too high expectations and then get disappointed by the lack of a "system" at all. At best they could probably present/market it as a few generic RP features but then comes the problem of explaining of why those features were included, what purpose do they serve, without making it sound like they are part of a "secret ID system". Marketing is a huge minefield and it's very easy to take a wrong step.

This is probably also why even talking about it as a "secret ID system" gets a categorical "no" from MWM.

Tannim clearly has decided that "Secret IDs" can only mean one thing for COT - a huge unwieldy sub-system that involves NPCs and missions being totally disrupted throughout the entire game. No wonder he's reluctant to entertain that idea; if I were him I'd be frustrated talking about it too.

I simply think it's sad that he can't be bothered to consider a reasonable compromise to that that would be much, much easier for him to implement.

But that’s consistent. MWM doesn’t seem willing to compromise on many things. Which is both a flaw and strength. No second crowd funding attempt without an Avatar Builder. UE4 is now available, throw out a lot of progress to hop on a new engine which sets back release but works better in the long run. No super-early-release access like Valiance Online did (thank heavens).

MWM goes all-in on everything. If it can’t be done right, don’t bother. I don’t think it’s a lack of vision, it’s an unwillingness to give in and abandon the vision they have, to slack on principles. And while that’s going to be frustrating at times, I think it’s going to have a better product in the end.

It’s quite possible that a half-hearted Secret ID will cause people to be more upset than none at all. Like putting ice cream on the menu that’s bland soft serve vanilla. You’d rather be the restaurant with no ice cream than one with bad ice cream. I think Tannim has a good point and MWM is making the right decision, despite what I’d suggested before (and I know my suggestion wasn’t 100% original).

I'm STILL having a terribly hard time understanding how the addition of a COMPROMISE OPTIONAL COSMETIC QoL feature could possibly upset anyone, ESPECIALLY considering the COMPROMISE in this case is a "stand-in" for a system the Devs (Tannim) have already said IS NOT HAPPENING anyway. How can someone be mad at a "replacement" for something that wasn't happening to begin with? It's like being mad at getting a scoop of ice cream after being told you were never going to get a full ice cream sundae anyway.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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If it is purely for role play

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.


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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

If custom nameplate is the only thing you are talking about then why only present it as "secret ID"? I can think of one other scenario that could benefit from such a system that has nothing to do with secret ID's, and I'm sure there are more.

Maybe it is an automatic reaction to just say no when talking about "secret ID" in any form, but has "custom nameplate" presented only as "custom nameplate" been categorically rejected by the devs?

Good gods the Devs could call the "custom nameplate" idea whatever the f$ck they want for all I care. If Tannim is really getting hung up on this discussion because he's getting confused over the term "Secret ID" that's his problem, not mine.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

That would requirenrecoding the entire character sheet. That won’t be happening.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

That would requirenrecoding the entire character sheet. That won’t be happening.

You've got to be shitting all of us with that... Are you literally saying you will never update the character sheet of CoT... ever... until the end of time?

My god at least you know how to make me lol you stubborn bastard. ;)

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And I understand the intent:

And I understand the intent: the desire to role play as someone other than your character using another costume that other role players would identify you as.

Except it falls apart when they look up your info, when they send a direct message, when they team with you and so on.

Which means that really, you can role play using whatever some slot you want and either include your role play name in your bio, or if you have a regular group, they can know your name. Those are the kinds of choices that are up to players without us devs enforcing the one true way to role play.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

That would requirenrecoding the entire character sheet. That won’t be happening.

You've got to be shitting all of us with that... Are you literally saying you will never update the character sheet of CoT... ever... until the end of time?

My god at least you know how to make me lol you stubborn bastard. ;)

Not saying never. Definitely not now or several years out with all the work we have ahead of us.

What happens in after year 3-4 or beyond is too far out. Saying “yes” now would be essentially lying.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

And I understand the intent: the desire to role play as someone other than your character using another costume that other role players would identify you as.

Except it falls apart when they look up your info, when they send a direct message, when they team with you and so on.

Which means that really, you can role play using whatever some slot you want and either include your role play name in your bio, or if you have a regular group, they can know your name. Those are the kinds of choices that are up to players without us devs enforcing the one true way to role play.

Falls apart? It's an OPTIONAL QoL RP aid. It's only meant to be a "Hello, my name is X" sticker to help RPers. It's not supposed to be perfect foolproof solution for anything. I'll remind you one more time you've GIVEN UP on the real solution to this situation - I'm simply offering a suggestion for a makeshift compromise.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

That would requirenrecoding the entire character sheet. That won’t be happening.

You've got to be shitting all of us with that... Are you literally saying you will never update the character sheet of CoT... ever... until the end of time?

My god at least you know how to make me lol you stubborn bastard. ;)

Not saying never. Definitely not now or several years out with all the work we have ahead of us.

What happens in after year 3-4 or beyond is too far out. Saying “yes” now would be essentially lying.

Just like saying "we can't possibly make a change to a GUI" is pure Dev bullshit? Please, if you're going to make an excuse like that don't offer it to someone who's been working professionally in a Computer Science oriented career for 25+ years.

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We all gotta calm down, lol

We all gotta calm down, lol
Don't start a flame war... Even if it's on low. We should take a deep breath and let the topic go. Ask another time, like after issue 0 or even later after issue 1.

Right now they got a lot to think about. I really think thinks are just heating up needlessly. And we don't wann pressure them with ideas where no one can agree with.
Let things slide for now.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

That would requirenrecoding the entire character sheet. That won’t be happening.

You've got to be shitting all of us with that... Are you literally saying you will never update the character sheet of CoT... ever... until the end of time?

My god at least you know how to make me lol you stubborn bastard. ;)

Not saying never. Definitely not now or several years out with all the work we have ahead of us.

What happens in after year 3-4 or beyond is too far out. Saying “yes” now would be essentially lying.

Just like saying "we can't possibly make a change to a GUI" is pure Dev bullshit? Please, if you're going to make an excuse like that don't offer it to someone who's been working professionally in Computer Science for 25+ years.

I’m done. You constant disrespectful attitude is not conducive to a conversation and is bent on being purely argumentative. I took time ai didn’t have to try and be kind and respectful in my replies. If you can’t afford that courtesy I don’t have anything further to say.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it is purely for role play purpsoes, withoutnhaving to create “role play ID system surrounding a costume slot”, players can, without any work from us, already use a costume slot of their choice and role play any way they desire.

What about a local unique nameplate for that costume slot as a "substitute" for the Secret ID system you've given up on?

God damn I'm not asking for the world here...

That would requirenrecoding the entire character sheet. That won’t be happening.

You've got to be shitting all of us with that... Are you literally saying you will never update the character sheet of CoT... ever... until the end of time?

My god at least you know how to make me lol you stubborn bastard. ;)

Not saying never. Definitely not now or several years out with all the work we have ahead of us.

What happens in after year 3-4 or beyond is too far out. Saying “yes” now would be essentially lying.

Just like saying "we can't possibly make a change to a GUI" is pure Dev bullshit? Please, if you're going to make an excuse like that don't offer it to someone who's been working professionally in Computer Science for 25+ years.

I’m done. You constant disrespectful attitude is not conducive to a conversation and is bent on being purely argumentative. I took time ai didn’t have to try and be kind and respectful in my replies. If you can’t afford that courtesy I don’t have anything further to say.

I've merely offered you a reasonably simplistic compromise (which again was suggested long and often by others before this thread ever appeared) to a feature you are unable/unwilling to implement. I'm sorry that "ruffled your feathers" to this extent. *shrugs*

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Atama wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As Tannim has said on other posts, a proper secrete ID system would effectively be another game in itself to be more than just a token gesture. And that is something I'm sure they shouldn't be considering for a number of years after live launch.

Obviously there is a lot of room to maneuver when trying to define what a "proper" Secret ID system could effectively be for CoT.

If the Devs decide they could only make something grandiose enough that it would have to be a virtual "game within a game" then of course it would be hard to do. But as I suggested earlier in this thread there are many features that could be added to CoT that would help people roleplay Secret IDs without having to make the whole thing "too complex to consider".

Frankly I think Devs like Tannim have made the mistake of assuming this Secret ID thing would have to be a huge sub-system of the game when a handful of relatively simple QoL features would more than suffice for the majority of players who would care about it. Sure a few QoL details would not be as "perfect" as a huge Secret ID mini-game, but then again compromises always have to be made regardless and I'd rather have something than nothing as far as this goes.

And that is why I said "to be more than just a token gesture".

As someone else effectively said, I think they are holding of on this since it can easily be twisted into MWM doing a half-arsed system just to appear to "please" a certain segment of their player base. While these QoL bits you talk about would most certainly satisfy the RP community (if "needed" at all) I fear that any mentioning of "secrete ID" possibility, unless very very carefully worded, would come back and bite them in the arse due to the people outside of the RP community.

Not quite getting how the inclusion of several cosmetic RP QoL features could possibly piss off anyone. *shrugs*

If there are people out there who would look at the "naming a costume slot with a unique local name" as a "half-arsed Secret ID system" when Tannim himself has basically already stated that MWM is not likely going to be producing a "full-arsed Secret ID system" any time soon then that's going to be that player's problem, not any of ours.

In this case (in your terms) I'd still rather get half an arse than none of it...

It's not so much the inclusion of those QoL features but rather the potential presentation/marketing around it. Presenting/marketing it would have to make it explicitly clear that it is limited to RP only so even mentioning having anything close to a "secret ID system" would most likely have too many people (and reviewers) go in with too high expectations and then get disappointed by the lack of a "system" at all. At best they could probably present/market it as a few generic RP features but then comes the problem of explaining of why those features were included, what purpose do they serve, without making it sound like they are part of a "secret ID system". Marketing is a huge minefield and it's very easy to take a wrong step.

This is probably also why even talking about it as a "secret ID system" gets a categorical "no" from MWM.

Tannim clearly has decided that "Secret IDs" can only mean one thing for COT - a huge unwieldy sub-system that involves NPCs and missions being totally disrupted throughout the entire game. No wonder he's reluctant to entertain that idea; if I were him I'd be frustrated talking about it too.

I simply think it's sad that he can't be bothered to consider a reasonable compromise to that that would be much, much easier for him to implement.

But that’s consistent. MWM doesn’t seem willing to compromise on many things. Which is both a flaw and strength. No second crowd funding attempt without an Avatar Builder. UE4 is now available, throw out a lot of progress to hop on a new engine which sets back release but works better in the long run. No super-early-release access like Valiance Online did (thank heavens).

MWM goes all-in on everything. If it can’t be done right, don’t bother. I don’t think it’s a lack of vision, it’s an unwillingness to give in and abandon the vision they have, to slack on principles. And while that’s going to be frustrating at times, I think it’s going to have a better product in the end.

It’s quite possible that a half-hearted Secret ID will cause people to be more upset than none at all. Like putting ice cream on the menu that’s bland soft serve vanilla. You’d rather be the restaurant with no ice cream than one with bad ice cream. I think Tannim has a good point and MWM is making the right decision, despite what I’d suggested before (and I know my suggestion wasn’t 100% original).

I'm STILL having a terribly hard time understanding how the addition of a COMPROMISE OPTIONAL COSMETIC QoL feature could possibly upset anyone, ESPECIALLY considering the COMPROMISE in this case is a "stand-in" for a system the Devs (Tannim) have already said IS NOT HAPPENING anyway. How can someone be mad at a "replacement" for something that wasn't happening to begin with? It's like being mad at getting a scoop of ice cream after being told you were never going to get a full ice cream sundae anyway.

I could see someone getting mad if they received something extra they weren’t expecting, and didn’t enjoy it. The average customer tends to have an inflated sense of entitlement. And if anyone is more picky and petty than a food critic, it’s a game reviewer.

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I always know when a thread

I always know when a thread count explodes that Lothic found his way back into port. And this thread delivered.

Tannim: much respect.

Lothic: here's your lance, there's the windmill. Tilt away.

To the OP: I'm not an RPer so I don't have any particular use for such a system but I can see how someone might want for something. But in the instance that the RPers don't get something due to the amount of work involved, in whatever capacity that might be, then they can simply continue to use what they've had all along; their imagination.

Boom. Problem solved.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I could see someone getting mad if they received something extra they weren’t expecting, and didn’t enjoy it. The average customer tends to have an inflated sense of entitlement. And if anyone is more picky and petty than a food critic, it’s a game reviewer.

Eh... I really think you're starting to count the angels that could dance on the head of a pin with this line of reasoning.

Or as Han Solo aptly said, "Good against remotes is one thing, good against the living, that's something else."

If a so-called "game reviewer" ever picked this one particular scenario to harp on I would frankly find it an odd mix of sad and hilarious.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I always know when a thread count explodes that Lothic found his way back into port. And this thread delivered.

I do my best. ;)

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Tannim: much respect.

When he earns it, sure.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Lothic: here's your lance, there's the windmill. Tilt away.

Way to skim a thread and assume everything's my fault...

As a potential player it's practically my job to jump up and down and make a quixotic fool of myself in these forums. For a lead Dev to throw a tantrum is something else.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I always know when a thread count explodes that Lothic found his way back into port. And this thread delivered.

I do my best. ;)

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Tannim: much respect.

When he earns it, sure.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Lothic: here's your lance, there's the windmill. Tilt away.

Way to skim a thread and assume everything's my fault...

As a potential player it's practically my job to jump up and down an make a fool of myself in these forums. For a lead Dev to throw a tantrum is something else.

No disrespect intended.
You're one hell of a worker!

And I didn't read any of Tannims posts as "throwing a tantrum"...
Seriously, I'm just kidding around.

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

And I didn't read any of Tannims posts as "throwing a tantrum"...

His last one was good enough to meet that standard for me. Not much more to be said about it really. *shrugs*

For what it's worth in the greater context I think Tannim would really like to be able to implement the "perfect" Secret ID system that everyone would love. Devs generally want to make whatever they're working on the best it can be and I'm sure Tannim is no different in that regard. But since he can't (for whatever reasons) I see no shame for him to at least consider reasonable alternatives. What worries me is the apparent "all or nothing" vibe he's sticking to.

Ultimately I don't really think it helps any of us to blindly act as "Yes Men" toward the Devs. If that upsets them that's their problem, not ours.

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I certainly was not throwing

I certainly was not throwing a “tantrum”. I’m just not going to waste my time on someone who isn’t going to at the very least maintain a respectful discourse. At that point anything ai say that isn’t overwhelmingly in agreement with said person will always be contentious. As proven already. By equating my statement with behaviors typically ascribed to toddlers.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

If custom nameplate is the only thing you are talking about then why only present it as "secret ID"? I can think of one other scenario that could benefit from such a system that has nothing to do with secret ID's, and I'm sure there are more.

Maybe it is an automatic reaction to just say no when talking about "secret ID" in any form, but has "custom nameplate" presented only as "custom nameplate" been categorically rejected by the devs?

Good gods the Devs could call the "custom nameplate" idea whatever the f$ck they want for all I care. If Tannim is really getting hung up on this discussion because he's getting confused over the term "Secret ID" that's his problem, not mine.

So you are saying that Tannim (and the rest of the devs) having a specific view in terms to what constitutes "secret ID" and us keeping referring to that term in another context without fully explaining said context if fully his problem? He's not a freaking mind reader (and neither are the rest of us) so it is the responsibility of all parties in a conversation to make sure all are on the same plane/stage when talking.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

If custom nameplate is the only thing you are talking about then why only present it as "secret ID"? I can think of one other scenario that could benefit from such a system that has nothing to do with secret ID's, and I'm sure there are more.

Maybe it is an automatic reaction to just say no when talking about "secret ID" in any form, but has "custom nameplate" presented only as "custom nameplate" been categorically rejected by the devs?

Good gods the Devs could call the "custom nameplate" idea whatever the f$ck they want for all I care. If Tannim is really getting hung up on this discussion because he's getting confused over the term "Secret ID" that's his problem, not mine.

So you are saying that Tannim (and the rest of the devs) having a specific view in terms to what constitutes "secret ID" and us keeping referring to that term in another context without fully explaining said context if fully his problem? He's not a freaking mind reader (and neither are the rest of us) so it is the responsibility of all parties in a conversation to make sure all are on the same plane/stage when talking.

If nothing else I still respect Tannim enough to assume he has the ability to follow along with the context of what's being talked about in a thread like this. I don't consider him "stupid" by any measure of that word, do you? Was my original post in this thread truly that cryptic given the context of this thread?

P.S. One more time for the record the idea for having uniquely nameable costume slots is not strictly MY idea that I just thought up for this thread today - it has effectively come up in every thread the subject of Secret IDs has ever been discussed. You can kill the messenger (me in this case if that wasn't clear to you) but it wasn't actually "my" message - it's just one I happen to agree with. This "alternative" for Secret IDs can't possibly be new/foreign to Tannim. If it is then his memory (if not his smarts) could be called into question.

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I could see a point to being

I could see a point to being able to "name" costume slots, but that would be for the convience of the player (i.e. "Which slot has the blue hat? Oh, right, the one named 'BlueHatHero'). But that would be something that only shows up on the costume-slot-picker interface (and possibly useful in macros for changing costume slots), not interacting with other players or NPC's.

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Beamrider wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

I could see a point to being able to "name" costume slots, but that would be for the convience of the player (i.e. "Which slot has the blue hat? Oh, right, the one named 'BlueHatHero'). But that would be something that only shows up on the costume-slot-picker interface (and possibly useful in macros for changing costume slots), not interacting with other players or NPC's.

Progress...

If individual costume slots could be uniquely named by the player in any way then the idea of having that unique name appear even as a "title" above the character's head would not likely be the impossibly quixotic fantasy some people might have you believe.

Again not asking for the world here.

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Beamrider wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

I could see a point to being able to "name" costume slots, but that would be for the convience of the player (i.e. "Which slot has the blue hat? Oh, right, the one named 'BlueHatHero'). But that would be something that only shows up on the costume-slot-picker interface (and possibly useful in macros for changing costume slots), not interacting with other players or NPC's.

Basically a file name replacement. But that doesn’t have anything to do with what is being asked for.

Which is a way to rename your character based on the costume selected - but has to be kept separate from the actual character name, and won’t interact with any other system, for other role players to know that they need to call BlueHatHero, by the name of Bob.

Which is to say that, the name is meaningless to the game itself, but is useful in the context for role play purposes, which can be handled by just letting people know you are “Bob” now, since ithe fake name wouldn’t work in any other chat context. All your local, team, ST, etc messages would still show your real character name.

I’ve marked it down on the QoL list which in well into the hundreds now and the the likelihood of it coming up or review is at minimum several years out post launch.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

I could see a point to being able to "name" costume slots, but that would be for the convience of the player (i.e. "Which slot has the blue hat? Oh, right, the one named 'BlueHatHero'). But that would be something that only shows up on the costume-slot-picker interface (and possibly useful in macros for changing costume slots), not interacting with other players or NPC's.

Progress...

If individual costume slots could be uniquely named by the player in any way then the idea of having that unique name appear even as a "title" above the character's head would not likely be the impossibly quixotic fantasy some people might have you believe.

Again not asking for the world here.

Read my reply. It is a file name, not a character ID name.


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Tannim222][quote=Beamrider
Tannim222 wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

I could see a point to being able to "name" costume slots, but that would be for the convience of the player (i.e. "Which slot has the blue hat? Oh, right, the one named 'BlueHatHero'). But that would be something that only shows up on the costume-slot-picker interface (and possibly useful in macros for changing costume slots), not interacting with other players or NPC's.

Basically a file name replacement. But that doesn’t have anything to do with what is being asked for.

Which is a way to rename your character based on the costume selected - but has to be kept separate from the actual character name, and won’t interact with any other system, for other role players to know that they need to call BlueHatHero, by the name of Bob.

Which is to say that, the name is meaningless to the game itself, but is useful in the context for role play purposes, which can be handled by just letting people know you are “Bob” now, since ithe fake name wouldn’t work in any other chat context. All your local, team, ST, etc messages would still show your real character name.

You keep trying to explain the "alternative to the alternative" which is that the Devs do nothing in this regard. Is that supposed to be news I should be excited about?

All I'm doing here is suggesting a simple QoL improvement - if you don't implement it then OBVIOUSLY players will have to do other things to work around the lack of that QoL improvement. It's like I'm suggesting that characters should wear shirts but you tell me "shirts are pointless and the game can be played without them". Obviously we can play without them, but that doesn't really explain why the game would be BETTER without shirts.

Tannim222 wrote:

I’ve marked it down on the QoL list which in well into the hundreds now and the the likelihood of it coming up or review is at minimum several years out post launch.

I've off-handedly joked about "having to act the fool" to get anything done around here. It's kind of weird when that methodology actually proves to be useful to some degree.

Also the very idea that you'd sort your QoL feature to do list by "order of receipt" instead of "priority of difficulty" is laughable in-and-of itself but I guess I won't press my luck when I'm apparently "getting my way" here. Here's hoping the first item on the list doesn't single-handedly take ten years to finish. ;)

Tannim222 wrote:

Read my reply. It is a file name, not a character ID name.

If it actually happens would I care what you call it internally or how you accomplished it?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

I could see a point to being able to "name" costume slots, but that would be for the convience of the player (i.e. "Which slot has the blue hat? Oh, right, the one named 'BlueHatHero'). But that would be something that only shows up on the costume-slot-picker interface (and possibly useful in macros for changing costume slots), not interacting with other players or NPC's.

Basically a file name replacement. But that doesn’t have anything to do with what is being asked for.

Which is a way to rename your character based on the costume selected - but has to be kept separate from the actual character name, and won’t interact with any other system, for other role players to know that they need to call BlueHatHero, by the name of Bob.

Which is to say that, the name is meaningless to the game itself, but is useful in the context for role play purposes, which can be handled by just letting people know you are “Bob” now, since ithe fake name wouldn’t work in any other chat context. All your local, team, ST, etc messages would still show your real character name.

You keep trying to explain the "alternative to the alternative" which is that the Devs do nothing in this regard. Is that supposed to be news I should be excited about?

All I'm doing here is suggesting a simple QoL improvement - if you don't implement it then OBVIOUSLY players will have to do other things to work around the lack of that QoL improvement. It's like I'm suggesting that characters should wear shirts but you tell me "shirts are pointless and the game can be played without them". Obviously we can play without them, but that doesn't really explain why the game would be BETTER without shirts.

Tannim222 wrote:

I’ve marked it down on the QoL list which in well into the hundreds now and the the likelihood of it coming up or review is at minimum several years out post launch.

I've off-handedly joked about "having to act the fool" to get anything done around here. It's kind of weird when that methodology actually proves to be useful to some degree.

Also the very idea that you'd sort your QoL feature to do list by "order of receipt" instead of "priority of difficulty" is laughable in-and-of itself but I guess I won't press my luck when I'm apparently "getting my way" here. Here's hoping the first item on the list doesn't single-handedly take ten years to finish. ;)

Tannim222 wrote:

Read my reply. It is a file name, not a character ID name.

If it actually happens would I care what you call it or how you accomplished it?

A file name is only in the CC for selecting the desired costume file for the character. It isn’t a name change / fake name for the character by any means.

And pat yourself on the. Ask if you like, but this being on the QoL list has nothing to do with this thread but based on a request going several years back.

As far as your false assumption that the aQoL list is by order of receipt, it was determined to be that far out from probability for review several years back. We have a lot of other priorities that we consider QoL features which have greater impact for the game.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A file name is only in the CC for selecting the desired costume file for the character. It isn’t a name change / fake name for the character by any means.

Well then that's probably got nothing to do with "solving" the intent of this QoL suggestion. God knows what we're going to end up with here. Perhaps when you reflect back on this conversation you'll realize you just tried to shameless placate me with false baubles and trinkets... or you'll do the right thing and actually try to get this working as suggested. Time will tell I suppose.

Tannim222 wrote:

And pat yourself on the. Ask if you like, but this being on the QoL list has nothing to do with this thread but based on a request going several years back.

As far as your false assumption that the aQoL list is by order of receipt, it was determined to be that far out from probability for review several years back. We have a lot of other priorities that we consider QoL features which have greater impact for the game.

Thanks... My "Ask" likes to be patted from time to time even when you're apparently trying to side-step away from a reasonable solution to a reasonable request.

And for maybe the fifth time this wasn't MY idea and I was never claiming direct credit for it - I simply agreed with it as a very reasonable suggestion in light of the "lack" of a full-fledged Secret ID system. I suppose if it actually was already "on the list from a few years back" then it wasn't such an outlandish idea after all.

Now that naming costume slots is on the table tell me why making those names appear as "titles" over/under a character's name is such an impossible leap. CoH allowed us to apply badge names as subtitles with the "settitle" command - tell me how this couldn't follow along in the same way.

Come on Tannim - try thinking outside the box here. I know you can do it. If changing character names are so "boohoo too hard" let costume slot names appear as subtitles over or under the character's actual name. Good grief man do I literally have to think of everything here?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A file name is only in the CC for selecting the desired costume file for the character. It isn’t a name change / fake name for the character by any means.

Well then that's probably got nothing to do with "solving" the intent of this QoL suggestion. God knows what we're going to end up with here. Perhaps when you reflect back on this conversation you'll realize you just tried to shameless placate me with false baubles and trinkets... or you'll do the right thing and actually try to get this working as suggested. Time will tell I suppose.

Tannim222 wrote:

And pat yourself on the. Ask if you like, but this being on the QoL list has nothing to do with this thread but based on a request going several years back.

As far as your false assumption that the aQoL list is by order of receipt, it was determined to be that far out from probability for review several years back. We have a lot of other priorities that we consider QoL features which have greater impact for the game.

Thanks... My "Ask" likes to be patted from time to time even when you're apparently trying to side-step away from a reasonable solution to a reasonable request.

And for maybe the fifth time this wasn't MY idea and I was never claiming direct credit for it - I simply agreed with it as a very reasonable suggestion in light of the "lack" of a full-fledged Secret ID system. I suppose if it actually was already "on the list from a few years back" then it wasn't such an outlandish idea after all.

Now that naming costume slots is on the table tell me why making those names appear as "titles" over/under a character's name is such an impossible leap. CoH allowed us to apply badge names as subtitles with the "settitle" command - tell me how this couldn't follow along in the same way.

Come on Tannim - try thinking outside the box here. I know you can do it. If changing character names are so "boohoo too hard" let costume slot names appear as subtitles over or under the character's actual name. Good grief man do I literally have to think of everything here?

Again, your tone is t conducive to a polite discourse. I won’t directly respond with anything meaningful related to the game when this occurs after this.

For o!ne, we have thisenfiels occupied by other data m. Another, we would have to connect the file name to the filtering system. Which means going back to code something. That is already coded.
We aren’t going backwards with code.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A file name is only in the CC for selecting the desired costume file for the character. It isn’t a name change / fake name for the character by any means.

Well then that's probably got nothing to do with "solving" the intent of this QoL suggestion. God knows what we're going to end up with here. Perhaps when you reflect back on this conversation you'll realize you just tried to shameless placate me with false baubles and trinkets... or you'll do the right thing and actually try to get this working as suggested. Time will tell I suppose.

Tannim222 wrote:

And pat yourself on the. Ask if you like, but this being on the QoL list has nothing to do with this thread but based on a request going several years back.

As far as your false assumption that the aQoL list is by order of receipt, it was determined to be that far out from probability for review several years back. We have a lot of other priorities that we consider QoL features which have greater impact for the game.

Thanks... My "Ask" likes to be patted from time to time even when you're apparently trying to side-step away from a reasonable solution to a reasonable request.

And for maybe the fifth time this wasn't MY idea and I was never claiming direct credit for it - I simply agreed with it as a very reasonable suggestion in light of the "lack" of a full-fledged Secret ID system. I suppose if it actually was already "on the list from a few years back" then it wasn't such an outlandish idea after all.

Now that naming costume slots is on the table tell me why making those names appear as "titles" over/under a character's name is such an impossible leap. CoH allowed us to apply badge names as subtitles with the "settitle" command - tell me how this couldn't follow along in the same way.

Come on Tannim - try thinking outside the box here. I know you can do it. If changing character names are so "boohoo too hard" let costume slot names appear as subtitles over or under the character's actual name. Good grief man do I literally have to think of everything here?

Again, your tone is t conducive to a polite discourse. I won’t directly respond with anything meaningful related to the game when this occurs after this.

For o!ne, we have thisenfiels occupied by other data m. Another, we would have to connect the file name to the filtering system. Which means going back to code something. That is already coded.
We aren’t going backwards with code.

I wasn't the one who said I wasn't going to "debate" the subject then proceeded to do so, then claim I was done talking only to re-post here again. Your accusations that I'm not being "polite" only seem to crop up when I make a point you can't directly refute, which in itself is toddler-esque.

That being said I have never once claimed that the QoL suggestion being discussed here would not take some amount of time and effort to implement and even freely conceded (many posts ago) that something like this would almost assuredly have to wait until after launch. But frankly your continued insinuations that this idea is "far too hard" to ever be attempted much less accomplished is becoming sad/tired even for you. When the CoH Devs initially said it was going to be impossible to add wings to their game it was easy to believe them because that was ACTUALLY a hard thing to do with the available tech back in 2004 and it still took them years to finish. Your attempt to paint this relatively (by comparison) simplistic QoL feature in the same light just (forgive the pun) doesn't fly.

Look, I get that you don't really like this QoL suggestion and I'm sure you could single-handedly prevent it from ever being worked on just to spite me personally. But I'm not sure you want to start to gain the reputation of arbitrarily denying the general playerbase useful QoL features just because individual forum posters might piss you off from time to time. Do it or don't do as you wish, but at least spare me (and the rest of us) the silly excuses. "Going backwards with the code?" *sigh* Do you really consider adding QoL features as "going backward"?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A file name is only in the CC for selecting the desired costume file for the character. It isn’t a name change / fake name for the character by any means.

Well then that's probably got nothing to do with "solving" the intent of this QoL suggestion. God knows what we're going to end up with here. Perhaps when you reflect back on this conversation you'll realize you just tried to shameless placate me with false baubles and trinkets... or you'll do the right thing and actually try to get this working as suggested. Time will tell I suppose.

Tannim222 wrote:

And pat yourself on the. Ask if you like, but this being on the QoL list has nothing to do with this thread but based on a request going several years back.

As far as your false assumption that the aQoL list is by order of receipt, it was determined to be that far out from probability for review several years back. We have a lot of other priorities that we consider QoL features which have greater impact for the game.

Thanks... My "Ask" likes to be patted from time to time even when you're apparently trying to side-step away from a reasonable solution to a reasonable request.

And for maybe the fifth time this wasn't MY idea and I was never claiming direct credit for it - I simply agreed with it as a very reasonable suggestion in light of the "lack" of a full-fledged Secret ID system. I suppose if it actually was already "on the list from a few years back" then it wasn't such an outlandish idea after all.

Now that naming costume slots is on the table tell me why making those names appear as "titles" over/under a character's name is such an impossible leap. CoH allowed us to apply badge names as subtitles with the "settitle" command - tell me how this couldn't follow along in the same way.

Come on Tannim - try thinking outside the box here. I know you can do it. If changing character names are so "boohoo too hard" let costume slot names appear as subtitles over or under the character's actual name. Good grief man do I literally have to think of everything here?

Again, your tone is t conducive to a polite discourse. I won’t directly respond with anything meaningful related to the game when this occurs after this.

For o!ne, we have thisenfiels occupied by other data m. Another, we would have to connect the file name to the filtering system. Which means going back to code something. That is already coded.
We aren’t going backwards with code.

I wasn't the one who said I wasn't going to "debate" the subject then proceeded to do so, then claim I was done talking only to re-post here again. Your accusations that I'm not being "polite" only seem to crop up when I make a point you can't directly refute, which in itself is toddler-esque.

That being said I have never once claimed that the QoL suggestion being discussed here would not take some amount of time and effort to implement and even freely conceded (many posts ago) that something like this would almost assuredly have to wait until after launch. But frankly your continued insinuations that this idea is "far too hard" to ever be attempted much less accomplished is becoming sad/tired even for you. When the CoH Devs initially said it was it was going to be impossible to add wings to their game it was easy to believe them because that was ACTUALLY a hard thing to do with the available tech back in 2004 and it still took them years to finish. Your attempt to paint this relatively (by comparison) simplistic QoL feature in the same light just (forgive the pun) doesn't fly.

Look, I get that you don't really like this QoL suggestion and I'm sure you could single-handedly prevent it from ever being worked on just to spite me personally. But I'm not sure you want to start to gain the reputation of arbitrarily denying the general playerbase useful QoL features just because individual forum posters might piss you off from time to time. Do it or don't do as you wish, but at least spare me (and the rest of us) the silly excuses. "Going backwards with the code?" *sigh* Do you really consider adding QoL features as "going backward"?

It isn’t about what ai likenor don’t like. At all.

Right now, the issue is, we aren’t going backward to add QoL feature. It is move forward toward a viable game.

We have many, many QoL, game features, systems, and mechanics we have discarded, shelves for later with a range of time frames, and hopeful one day to add concepts which may or may not ever make it.

I’ve already given the expected time frame for something like this to be taken into consideration. And that wasn’t my decision by the way.

I’m not trying to puss anyone off. I’m stating the truth of our situation and what was decided. I have not insinuated anything about the person(s) involved, and avoided any pretense of passive-aggressive means, and avoided direct insults.

If someone can’t handle the simple truth of what has been decided already, and where we are at as a team, in the manner in which inhave stated it, that is on them.

If we went out and said yes to every single person’s perception of what is a “relatively simple” QoL idea, we will box ourselves in, always “pissing someone off” because one was put in before another, or Gavin to fulfill a promise that we may have other priorities for.

What if I said, yes Lothic we can do that. The expectation is “we will do that” which will then become “ it will e at launch” or “skin after launch” to “where is idea x that you promised”. And. It necessarily be YOU but by other people who read into things too far.

What if we have other ideas that we aren’t ready to divukge yet that ideas conflict with?

What if we say yes to something now, and in 2 months, it is realied that adding it will conflict with something someone else planned?

Just because something is possible doesn’t mean it is probable. Just because something is probable doesn’t mean it will happen. Just because something will happen means it will happen in a reasonable timeframe. Just because something can be done in a reasonable timeframe means that it will be done ever.


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blacke4dawn wrote:

Sheesh, this topic exploded today ...

blacke4dawn wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I still keep thinking that Secret Identities could be used as a sort of "stealth the mission" variant for some content, where the point of the exercise is to use your Secret Identity to infiltrate {fill in the blank} and obtain {mission objective}.

Note that this kind of thing is NOT all that different from some of the Freakshow Costume Temp Power stuff that we had back in City of Heroes, where you'd activate a Temp Power and all of a sudden the Freakshow wouldn't attack you because they thought you were one of them.

Point being that you don't need a different GAME to pull that kind of thing off

What you have presented here is not so much "secrete ID" as much as it is just plain old "disguise" to me.

That's because a Secret ID IS A DISGUISE ... almost by definition.

So what do Supers with a Secret ID disguise themselves as?
Duh ... CIVILIANS ... in other words, people without Powers.

There's a reason why I framed this whole idea in terms of being a Disguise ... because that's the first step in making something like a Secret ID work.

First step.
Walk.
Run.
Race you to the finish.

How do disguises work?
By HIDING your (true) identity.
A Secret ID is simply a disguise that you use more than once in the context of a game like City of Titans ... which kinda sorta says "costume slot" to me, but with extra Powers+Aggro disabling features mandatorily associated/enforced with that specific costume slot.

Although, strictly speaking, the Most Superior™ implementation of such a scheme would involve a simple checkbox in the UI, where the Player simply chooses if a costume slot is Super or Secret ... that way the choice(s) are purely voluntary at the discretion of the Player, no one is "forced" into having a Secret ID (at all), and in fact you could even (for RP reasons) have a "master of disguise" PC with MULTIPLE Secret Identities if you wanted to go that route, so as to dedicate multiple costume slots to preset Secret IDs. That way, you could either have severely different appearances in each Secret ID slot (for that man of a thousand faces effect) or you could have a bunch of similar appearances that are all variations on a theme for a Secret ID (Bruce Wayne in a bathrobe, casual clothes, black tie formal wear, speedos, etc.).

Yes, by definition of what I'm proposing here, this is essentially a way to SELF GIMP your PC temporarily (and by choice) so that the game world would treat your PC as if they were a Civilian NPC so as to not attract attention from what would be otherwise hostile NPCs in the open game world ... letting you WALK right past them because they look at your PC and see "Civilian" rather than seeing an enemy Super. Trust me ... do it RIGHT and you'll have Players finding clever ways to USE this feature, rather than simply shun it.

Tannim222 wrote:

Here is the issue: regardless of your costume and name plate - the world will recognize your “secret id” for your super ID’s exploits.

It is literally useless outside of specific locations and limited to RP purposes only.

Then it's a pity you don't have a way to cause the game world to treat your PC as if they were an unpowered Civilian while in their Secret ID.

You know, something as "simple" as while I have this Walk power turned on and have no access to ANY of my superpowers and am forced to move around at Civilian walking speed like all of the other Civilian NPCs in the game the game engine treats my PC as if they were a "nobody Civilian" too because my PC is in disguise as being NOT A SUPER.

Yeah, it's a pity that the game code was written so rigidly that such a "switch off the super" was never envisioned as a possible thing that could be explored in a variety of different ways. I mean, we had the whole Red/Blue divide in City of Heroes where Heroes couldn't go to the Rogue Isles and Villains couldn't go to Paragon City for a long long time (until Issue 18, actually) ... but wouldn't it have been fun, in an RP context, to be able to simply VISIT the "other side" as an unpowered Civilian and walk around the streets (and see the sights) that were available on the "enemy" side of the game?

Heck, I can ALREADY envision how such a system might be useful in a City of Titans context, where you have a mission to go "behind enemy lines" (in the Hero vs Villain context) and you can either do it the "dangerous" way in your Super ID, and get aggro from almost anything along the way ... or you can SNEAK in using your unpowered Secret ID Civilian Walking method in order to get past stuff that would be too dangerous for you at your level to survive trying to fight your way past. So right there, you've got the option of Quick And Risky versus the alternative of Slow But Safe for simply being able to get to the mission door ... and then once you're inside the mission door you revert to your Super ID and get on with the combat.

Would everyone want to set up a Secret ID?
No ... just like how not everyone can be bothered to write up a Bio for their characters.

But I'm thinking that being able to "revert" to a Civilian Disguise as a way to "sneak" past some opposition to be able to get to where you might want to be going would be a worthwhile foundation for providing a purpose for a Secret ID system. The key being that rather than "adding" stuff to your character, it basically "takes stuff away" that identifies your PC as being a Super ... and at that point the game world just treats you like a Civilian NPC (and basically ignores you, pretty much, as far as aggro and so on is concerned). It then becomes a sort of "stealth by another name" kind of deal. Hide a tree in a forest, and all that. It's the difference between camouflage and invisibility.

After that, it's just a matter of limiting "where you can go" with a Secret ID as a PC Disguised As A Civilian so as to not arouse suspicion by going places that Civilians wouldn't be going (so no walking along the power lines as a Civilian, stay on the sidewalks and crosswalks you idiot, there are NO Civilians in the Sewers!) and you'll have the makings of another "side" to the city worth exploring. Because, trust me ... once the mission writers have a tool just lying around that can be used for storytelling in one way or another, somebody is going to be inspired to do some really clever stuff with it ... and that's not even including what the Players will come up with!

So in context of the topic of this discussion, such a feature would definitely fall into the category of NICE TO HAVE but would by no means be a requirement to use. So long as it remains a purely Quality of Life feature that is purely optional, it would be really cool and a segment of the playerbase will find uses for it.

Your turn.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Just because something is possible doesn’t mean it is probable. Just because something is probable doesn’t mean it will happen. Just because something will happen means it will happen in a reasonable timeframe. Just because something can be done in a reasonable timeframe means that it will be done ever.

Said the preacher to the choir...

Consider it or don't consider it. Do it or don't at your pleasure. I rehashed a long-standing pre-existing suggestion as a relatively simple alternative for a massive system you yourself said MWM is not likely to get around to and you reacted to that reasonable suggestion with a degree of detached negativity I don't think it rightly deserved. That's on you - I'm done taking your dose of "Devspeak platitudes" for the day. I didn't ask you for promises, commitments or least of all excuses concerning this issue.

In the words of the great Billy Crystal, "Have fun storming the castle!" If you want to keep responding to me about this I'll likely respond to you eventually but if you can manage to end it here I'm willing to call it quits as well. Neither of us are going to see eye-to-eye on this one. *shrugs*

[EDIT] I suppose Redlynne decided to tag in just as I decided to tag out. Have fun with that... [/EDIT]

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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See? Everyone has a different

See? Everyone has a different vision of what this "system" should do, and people throw a tantrum when they can't have it. Best to say no right up front.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

See? Everyone has a different vision of what this "system" should do, and people throw a tantrum when they can't have it. Best to say no right up front.

No!

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
warlocc wrote:

See? Everyone has a different vision of what this "system" should do, and people throw a tantrum when they can't have it. Best to say no right up front.

No!

And this is why we can't have nice things ...


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Sheesh, this topic exploded today ...

blacke4dawn wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I still keep thinking that Secret Identities could be used as a sort of "stealth the mission" variant for some content, where the point of the exercise is to use your Secret Identity to infiltrate {fill in the blank} and obtain {mission objective}.

Note that this kind of thing is NOT all that different from some of the Freakshow Costume Temp Power stuff that we had back in City of Heroes, where you'd activate a Temp Power and all of a sudden the Freakshow wouldn't attack you because they thought you were one of them.

Point being that you don't need a different GAME to pull that kind of thing off

What you have presented here is not so much "secrete ID" as much as it is just plain old "disguise" to me.

That's because a Secret ID IS A DISGUISE ... almost by definition.

So what do Supers with a Secret ID disguise themselves as?
Duh ... CIVILIANS ... in other words, people without Powers.

There's a reason why I framed this whole idea in terms of being a Disguise ... because that's the first step in making something like a Secret ID work.

First step.
Walk.
Run.
Race you to the finish.

How do disguises work?
By HIDING your (true) identity.
A Secret ID is simply a disguise that you use more than once in the context of a game like City of Titans ... which kinda sorta says "costume slot" to me, but with extra Powers+Aggro disabling features mandatorily associated/enforced with that specific costume slot.

Although, strictly speaking, the Most Superior™ implementation of such a scheme would involve a simple checkbox in the UI, where the Player simply chooses if a costume slot is Super or Secret ... that way the choice(s) are purely voluntary at the discretion of the Player, no one is "forced" into having a Secret ID (at all), and in fact you could even (for RP reasons) have a "master of disguise" PC with MULTIPLE Secret Identities if you wanted to go that route, so as to dedicate multiple costume slots to preset Secret IDs. That way, you could either have severely different appearances in each Secret ID slot (for that man of a thousand faces effect) or you could have a bunch of similar appearances that are all variations on a theme for a Secret ID (Bruce Wayne in a bathrobe, casual clothes, black tie formal wear, speedos, etc.).

Yes, by definition of what I'm proposing here, this is essentially a way to SELF GIMP your PC temporarily (and by choice) so that the game world would treat your PC as if they were a Civilian NPC so as to not attract attention from what would be otherwise hostile NPCs in the open game world ... letting you WALK right past them because they look at your PC and see "Civilian" rather than seeing an enemy Super. Trust me ... do it RIGHT and you'll have Players finding clever ways to USE this feature, rather than simply shun it.

Tannim222 wrote:

Here is the issue: regardless of your costume and name plate - the world will recognize your “secret id” for your super ID’s exploits.

It is literally useless outside of specific locations and limited to RP purposes only.

Then it's a pity you don't have a way to cause the game world to treat your PC as if they were an unpowered Civilian while in their Secret ID.

You know, something as "simple" as while I have this Walk power turned on and have no access to ANY of my superpowers and am forced to move around at Civilian walking speed like all of the other Civilian NPCs in the game the game engine treats my PC as if they were a "nobody Civilian" too because my PC is in disguise as being NOT A SUPER.

Yeah, it's a pity that the game code was written so rigidly that such a "switch off the super" was never envisioned as a possible thing that could be explored in a variety of different ways. I mean, we had the whole Red/Blue divide in City of Heroes where Heroes couldn't go to the Rogue Isles and Villains couldn't go to Paragon City for a long long time (until Issue 18, actually) ... but wouldn't it have been fun, in an RP context, to be able to simply VISIT the "other side" as an unpowered Civilian and walk around the streets (and see the sights) that were available on the "enemy" side of the game?

Heck, I can ALREADY envision how such a system might be useful in a City of Titans context, where you have a mission to go "behind enemy lines" (in the Hero vs Villain context) and you can either do it the "dangerous" way in your Super ID, and get aggro from almost anything along the way ... or you can SNEAK in using your unpowered Secret ID Civilian Walking method in order to get past stuff that would be too dangerous for you at your level to survive trying to fight your way past. So right there, you've got the option of Quick And Risky versus the alternative of Slow But Safe for simply being able to get to the mission door ... and then once you're inside the mission door you revert to your Super ID and get on with the combat.

Would everyone want to set up a Secret ID?
No ... just like how not everyone can be bothered to write up a Bio for their characters.

But I'm thinking that being able to "revert" to a Civilian Disguise as a way to "sneak" past some opposition to be able to get to where you might want to be going would be a worthwhile foundation for providing a purpose for a Secret ID system. The key being that rather than "adding" stuff to your character, it basically "takes stuff away" that identifies your PC as being a Super ... and at that point the game world just treats you like a Civilian NPC (and basically ignores you, pretty much, as far as aggro and so on is concerned). It then becomes a sort of "stealth by another name" kind of deal. Hide a tree in a forest, and all that. It's the difference between camouflage and invisibility.

After that, it's just a matter of limiting "where you can go" with a Secret ID as a PC Disguised As A Civilian so as to not arouse suspicion by going places that Civilians wouldn't be going (so no walking along the power lines as a Civilian, stay on the sidewalks and crosswalks you idiot, there are NO Civilians in the Sewers!) and you'll have the makings of another "side" to the city worth exploring. Because, trust me ... once the mission writers have a tool just lying around that can be used for storytelling in one way or another, somebody is going to be inspired to do some really clever stuff with it ... and that's not even including what the Players will come up with!

So in context of the topic of this discussion, such a feature would definitely fall into the category of NICE TO HAVE but would by no means be a requirement to use. So long as it remains a purely Quality of Life feature that is purely optional, it would be really cool and a segment of the playerbase will find uses for it.

Your turn.

This concept limits people to being "a civilian" while we want to provide for almost any concept. It doesn't match up with what we want to provide in freedom of creating a concept by us enforcing a concept. Something we are trying our best NOT do to.

So let's say we create a "civilian" disguise, which means we also have to provide the "civilian" faction status to the selected costume slot. This can result in interactions that should normally NOT happen to the character. And when those interactions occur. like say "completing a mission" which affects faction standing, has alignment implications. etc... we hare in essence going down a rabbit hole that we already identified as something we don't want to do.

The next option is to create "civilian disguise only missions" which end up being, again limited in concept, limited in scope, and require different coding for how we provide rewards, affects it has on the character and so on. And since this is a completely different set of rules, we are in essence, having to create a new game mode rules within the current game construct - which will either get limited provision resulting in little use over the entire game, or have to be fleshed out to be its own game.

It was decided by the team when this idea and others was given oh, about 2 months into the concept phase of the game through even after we entered post production, that we would either dedicate the entire game to work with such a system so it is fully integrated, regularly supported and thus utilized, or we wouldn't implement it into the game at all.


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Didn't mean to get any fights

Didn't mean to get any fights started. I'm sure the devs are doing what they can to deliver an excellent game. I'm just sort of dreaming out loud. (I'm sure in fifty years they'll be able to make your character worry about paying the mortgage if they want). To be clear, I'm not talking about making your character's identity secret to other players. I don't think that's possible or needed, though it would be funny to see a background pedestrian suddenly yell "Flame On!" and become the Human Torch. I'm just talking about an SI status to let you walk around plain clothes without being assaulted at every turn. And a little spot on the map to earn points towards creating a consumable and temporary boost. "Doctor, help I took too much Viagra" Press z. "Thanks doc!" 2 points towards making a health boost. Now you got 50, go to the lab and make it. Then at some point you use it to get through a tough mission. It's not a deal breaker, but would just sort of be cool for players like me who want to fantasize and enjoy as much depth as possible.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

...snip...

That's because a Secret ID IS A DISGUISE ... almost by definition.

So what do Supers with a Secret ID disguise themselves as?
Duh ... CIVILIANS ... in other words, people without Powers.

There's a reason why I framed this whole idea in terms of being a Disguise ... because that's the first step in making something like a Secret ID work.

...snip...

It's not that easy. Maybe my thought train got too stuck on your mentioning of using it in a mission, since I'm sure many wouldn't want to use their actual civilian persona for that but rather another (actual) disguise, say something that can blend in with the others there.

And sometimes the "disguise" is the "super ID".

Now if MWM does have such a system (disguise) in place by some means or planing to implement one then it shouldn't be that big a task to extend it to be usable with a player selectable costume.

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@Lothic

@Lothic

I went back to re-read your posts in this thread to see where you first explicit mention "just alternative display name" was made. It was the first one and even that suggestion has frighteningly large amounts of "half-arsedness" if it was ever hinted at as being a "secret ID".

1) While NPC's around you would call you Clark Kent they would still praise/condemn you for all your exploits done while being Superman. That to me would be a higher immersion breaker than them calling me Superman while in civvies.
2) You alignments and faction standings would still be the same as Superman so you wouldn't be able to move around as if "unknown".
3) You still wouldn't be treated as an actual "normal" civilian.

Now you said that separate costume slots was 80% of what was needed to effectively RP secret IDs, then how much are individual "display names" "worth" when compared to the points above? Is "display names" really that much more important, and if RP can compensate for all the other stuff then why not for "display names" as well?

Considering this I can fully see why MWM (not just Tannim) has chosen a hard stance of all or nothing in regards to anything relating to "Secret ID". Maybe the RP community would fully accept only having "display names" as a "secret ID system" but I'd guess they would be a fairly small part of the overall community and the rest would most likely see it as half-arsed and a waste of resources.

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I definitely see where Tannim

I definitely see where Tannim is coming from.

Even if I were to be able to rename my costumes (for others to see) that wouldn't be enough as NPCs would still run up and compliment my character on their deeds (or run in fear from them when they're a villain). Which from an RP sense most could ignore but I have no idea what other stuff the devs have planned (maybe you can randomly get jumped by groups after you tick them off a bunch) which could definitely ruin any immersion such a thing could have built up.

Now I wouldn't mind having the ability to have a different name for different costumes for other reasons (Some heroes/villains do take on other personas) but from what was said that seems like it'd be a not so easy task and then they wouldn't be able to sell renames to people (minor point).

Having your super name as a title defeats the point of it entirely for me. If my character is in Secret ID mode I don't want others, players included, to know who my character is. If I'm trying to be Peni Parker I don't want someone to come up to me and says "Oh, hey Spiderman!" Player or NPC. Which is what people did in RP in CoX even when your character looked completely different and you had something appropriate written in your Bio about it. Drove me up the wall.

So I guess I'm one of the people who'd want a more indepth secret ID system. At least one that let's me have a new name, bio, and makes NPCs ignore me (or at least not acknowledge my heroics/villainous deeds). Which is apparently not as easy as it would seem.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

This concept limits people to being "a civilian" while we want to provide for almost any concept. It doesn't match up with what we want to provide in freedom of creating a concept by us enforcing a concept. Something we are trying our best NOT do to.

By enforcing a Super ID concept AT ALL TIMES.
Just noting for irony value.

Tannim222 wrote:

So let's say we create a "civilian" disguise, which means we also have to provide the "civilian" faction status to the selected costume slot. This can result in interactions that should normally NOT happen to the character.

Um ... that's kind of the point?
People tend to react to Bruce Wayne and Batman ... um ... differently?

Tannim222 wrote:

And when those interactions occur. like say "completing a mission" which affects faction standing, has alignment implications. etc... we hare in essence going down a rabbit hole that we already identified as something we don't want to do.

Um ... simple answer ... complete with built in guard rails ... while in Secret ID, objectives that require Super ID are NOT completed (or are otherwise "suspended") until you return to Super ID. That way, the most you can use your Secret ID for is "moving around/past stuff" in order to reposition yourself ... or roleplay. And even then, the locations where Secret ID could be used wouldn't be the entire game world and every mission instance. I figure that MOST (if not all) mission instances would be coded as Super ID only ... except for rare and explicit exceptions (that wanted to make use of the Secret ID option in some form or fashion), so that becomes a non-issue. Some parts of the game world would be coded as Super ID only ... like sewer systems under the streets, because Civilians "don't belong" down there ... and so on.

Tannim222 wrote:

The next option is to create "civilian disguise only missions" which end up being, again limited in concept, limited in scope, and require different coding for how we provide rewards, affects it has on the character and so on.

Um ... overblown much?
Yes, it would be an OPTION.
It's also an option that can be deferred/declined until a lot of the rest of the game gets settled into place. In other words NOT A LAUNCH FEATURE.

Tannim222 wrote:

And since this is a completely different set of rules, we are in essence, having to create a new game mode rules within the current game construct - which will either get limited provision resulting in little use over the entire game, or have to be fleshed out to be its own game.

Again, overblown concern. What is being asked for is a roleplaying Quality of Life feature that explicitly isn't combat related, and if anything would fall under the heading of Stealth Mission enabling capabilities ... so that an actual Stealth Power or Invisibility or whatever doesn't necessarily need to be used in order to "get around" the setting without being noticed. What's being asked for is a Blend Into The Crowd functionality, that only "works" if there's a crowd of Civilians around doing the same things for the PC to blend into. Again, camouflage rather than invisibility is the point and purpose here.

HOW that might be used and purposed in post-launch content (or even IF it should) is a question that can be deferred for another time, specifically post-launch.

In other words, nice Premature Optimization you've got going there ... be a shame if anything happened to it ... no?

Tannim222 wrote:

It was decided by the team when this idea and others was given oh, about 2 months into the concept phase of the game through even after we entered post production, that we would either dedicate the entire game to work with such a system so it is fully integrated, regularly supported and thus utilized, or we wouldn't implement it into the game at all.

Well, nice to know you're keeping an open mind about what your game can (and can't) do ...


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