Shapeshifting, what do people actually want/expect out such a topic.
Do you want shapeshifting as a powerset? Are you hoping to form dance as a Titan equivalent to Kheldian?
Is it more about travel? Do you just want to be able to turn into a jaguar for super speed or an albatross for flight?
Is it about 'the big moment', a costume change based on momentum or cooldowns?
Is it a hopeful power theme for you? Do you just want your Solid Form/ Massive Melee Stalwart's powers to look like you're a huge bear?
My personal post-launch hope is on power themes. Just as we'll hopefully have a button to sheath or bring out our prop, my hope would be for such a button to shift outside combat for RP reasons, and for shifting into form be automatic upon attack use in combat. It may not open up the "beast boy" type of multiple forms, but I'm sure many would still enjoy turning into a wolf, boar, or lion for their characters.
"Shapeshifting" has appeared a few times over the years on the forums in general terms, but what is it to YOU?
I would love to shapeshift into an American Eagle, fly and breathe fire upon my enemies below.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
My hope would've been that they would change the pace and playstyle of the character for diversity in combat, like the Kheldians in that sense.
But with the broad selection of tertiary set options we're going to have access to, the more limited but diverse ability options I'd expect will already be available to other AT and powerset combinations.
Perhaps the shapeshifters would have a passive that changes slightly with each form as well to make the interaction unique?
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
It would seem to me that shapeshifting into or during combat would be a simple matter. I say this with the assumption that we are talking about a costume change, and not a hardwired form like the Kheldians were. This way it can fit into more personal lore stories. Some people may want to shift from alter egos into secret identities, from one form into an exalted form or into a beastly form or whatever a player can dream. There are two hurdles that would need to be overcome, however, if it is to be done well.
The first hurdle would be the time it takes to shift. Whatever costume change emotes that a player normally has queued up for a costume change emote should not apply in this case. Only near-instantaneous shifts would be permitted so as not to affect gameplay and combat animations, etc.
The second hurdle would be the processing load of costume changes during already graphics intensive activities like combat. It would need a long cooldown timer. This restriction would have to be in place not for gameplay purposes, but for client performance issues. Changing a costume requires everyone's clients to download, process, and render the new costume data. Too many costume changes by too many people would turn combat into a slideshow, so it would have to be limited basically to about one shift per combat. So either assign the shift to occur when entering combat stance, or assign it to a power that has a cooldown of 100 seconds or more(~ish. this is a completely unscientific approximation and warrants further examination). Since an extra costume slot would need to be available in order to unlock this capability, it also makes sense that it would not be available for short-cooldown powers a character has at lower levels but rather for the long cooldown powers a character gets at higher levels after additional costume slots have been unlocked. If a player wishes to assign the shapeshift as a combat stance change, he or she would either have to purchase the additional costume slot from the cash shop or wait to implement it until the character unlocks an additional slot through gameplay.
Once these two hurdles have been overcome, it seems as if shapeshifting into or during combat would be an academic exercise, and I think it would definitely be worth whatever effort it takes to implement.
Edit: I know I completely didn't address the OP query.
I want shapeshifting to be a super saiyan kind of thing, and I also want it to be a in combat out of combat kind of thing. The idea of a fast travel form also makes a lot of sense and I think that just seems so obvious that I hope it is already a thing.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
We don’t have costumenchanges during combat at all.
We toyednwith concepts for shape shifting and there are degrees of what we can do with morphs but the costume system limits what we can do that would also look right.
A shape shift into another “form” is possible like a bird for flight, but has other hurdles we have to resolve for other powers and such.
Which is why we put shape shifting aside for something to look into down the road.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Are you saying you are specifically preventing any manual costume changes while in "combat mode" for CoT? Even CoH's annoyingly conservative 30 second costume change cooldown timer didn't impose ANY restriction on whether you were in combat or not. This meant if you wanted to you could switch your costume every 30 seconds regardless of being in combat or not. Why would CoT need to be [b]more[/b] restrictive that CoH in this regard?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Our costumes are more complicated than CoH’s were.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I can accept the premise that CoT's costumes are more "complicated" than CoH's. I also have to balance that with the knowledge that server technology is now generally 15+ years more advanced than CoH's was. Frankly the idea that ANYTHING like this is going to be "less capable" than what CoH managed to provide is at best unfortunate.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It’s botnserver technology that is the issue. Minimum performance for the client iis.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
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[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
*sigh* I'm amazed I'm having to type this but CLIENT technology is now generally 15+ years more advanced than when CoH started as well. Do you really think everyone who's going to play this game is going to play it on 15 year old computers?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
*SIGH* and we are doing more with it than 15 years ago
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Sorry but not everyone in your playerbase is stuck with $300 laptops. I understand you have to develop the game for a certain "common denominator" but seriously what you're implying here is semi-ridiculous. Sorry, until you show us some of this "more" you're talking about here that's all we have to go on. *shrugs*
If you can't make a game that can handle somebody changing their costume once every 30 seconds then something is WRONG, period. 30 seconds is a virtual eternity as far as processing stuff like this goes. 30 seconds would easily prevent ANYONE from spamming these things and ought to mitigate any sort of "lag" associated with this. Seriously, if 30 seconds is not enough for CoT then I'd take that as a sign that something is not right. So what is the timer actually going to be for CoT? 60 seconds? 120 seconds? Just how silly is this going to be?
Look, the specific inability to be able to change costumes every 5 seconds is not going to keep people like me from playing this game. On the other hand if there are limitations in CoT that require this much attention be paid to "preventing costume changes in combat otherwise it would 'break' the game" then all I'm saying is that it does not inspire a whole lot of confidence about other parts of the game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Lothic, you clearly don’t know what it is you are talking about as to why we had to do this. I u sweat and you’re not happy but you also have to understand we are clearly being conservative here and nothing is set in stone. For now, this is how it is. We are testing on map tops that go back 5-7 years ago. That’s fairly low end performance.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I know enough (with a 25+ year computer science oriented career) that something "smells" here. If you're facing processing limitations that even a 30 second timeout can't handle then something is WRONG here. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it's becoming clear something is lacking here. Again the specific point about of how often costumes can be changed is now [b]not[/b] the actual issue here. This may simply represent the tip of the iceberg of other problems you may be facing.
I actually would like to think that I "clearly don’t know what it is [I'm] talking about". Sadly I do.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Well apparently there is something wrong here.
A failure to communicate.
We are intentionally being conservative.
Nothing is set in stone.
Right now, based on testing on what we epxoect to provide for minimum performance machines, we plan to not allow combat based costume changes.
As we optimize for performance and we have larger scale testing we will see what can be done. Again, this is still very early and we are being VERY conservative based on current testing with fairly old (tech wise) non-gaming lap tops (still decent for their day) to set a minimum performance level.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
And all I'm saying (consider it "constructive criticism" if you wish) is that as a simple rule of thumb you probably ought to avoid any situations where a given feature in CoT ends up being "worse and/or less capable" than what CoH managed to provide. 30 second timeouts for costume changes in CoH was already horribly annoying - the idea that we now need to expect that to be functionally [b]worse[/b] in CoT is again unfortunate at best.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I can’t make any promises there, Lothic.
We could provide a multitude of improvements and end up with an odd situation where we can’t do something (like this topic). And it can be easy to miss the forest Becuase someone is hung up on one tree not being there .
So, if we have costumes which are more varied in multiple factors PvE the old game and it results in not being able to do something else that was done in the old game in order to keep the tech barrier of entry low for more people to enjoy the game, I would call that a win. Again, no promises.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I seem to recall that the Unreal Engine can have contingencies put in place for when rendering overload occurs. One way is by adjusting the Level of Detail of the meshes themselves. The following document discusses level of detail of crowds wrt distance.
https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-us/Engine/Content/FBX/SkeletalMeshes#skeletalmeshlods
But even close to the camera, engines have been adjusting level of detail for years and years. We're all well acquainted with watching blurry or blocky character and weapon skins for a few seconds before they become crisp and detailed.
Another way is to load 2D silhouettes to stand in proxy for a character while the meshes are processed and rendered. I know of at least two games that do this: TERA Online and Archeage both display shadow silhouettes of player characters when such rendering becomes a client processing issue. This prevents the kind of lockup Tannim is referring to. And both of those games are using much older and less sophisticated engines than Unreal 4.
In other words, if we want to do it, I'm pretty sure there are ways to make it work.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
We’re well aware of LoD scaling. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
What we are doing, with our base character model, the costume system, the animation system, and particle effects system is something that has yet to de done by anyone. It is literally an unprecedented level of customization being provided.
And we also know not only what we are doing with it now, but where we want to take it. The result is that sometimes a common way of handling an issue isn’t always applicable.
*edit*
I will state again however they nothing is set in stone.
That we are basing this on current testing of older machines.
We still have optimization to go through.
Things may change.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I'm curious what this means as far as return on investment of a 'gaming rig'. If the game is being made to perform on old, non-gaming machines then it seems like the only thing I really need is a decent graphics card (for highest graphic setting) and normal $300 or $400 machine machine? Really any 2018 laptop or PC with todays standard RAM and processor ought to do, right?
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Remember, we are internally testing. We haven’t optimized for performance yet. We do plan to provide for a wide range of lower end PCs / laptops. Our current testing machines may not be the low end bench mark when everything is done. Please don’t go investing yet if your plan is purely to cover yourself for this game unless you are looking for other modern gaming as well.
Of course the more capable your rig, the “prettier” everything will be.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
So... what other feature would you be willing to let them scale back on so they could get "costume loading during combat"?
As Tannim said the amount of customization is unprecedented and thus the "load" during combat will be much higher compared to CoH, even when taking technological improvements into consideration. You are giving me (and probably some others) the impression that you think that just because technology improves old "limitations" in software magically disappear regardless of what other features you put in. I know you are more intelligent than that but your argument of effectively only "technology has improved" isn't really good because it's not about that technology has improved but rather how we utilize said improvements.
I never really said that improvements in technology would "magically" make the limitations of older games disappear. That does tend to actually happen but not by "magic" at any rate. What I did strongly imply was that taking functional [b]steps backward[/b] in newer games is less than desirable.
Again I get that Tannim currently believes that the costume system of CoT is "so much more complex" than CoH's that certain sacrifices are worthwhile. While I accept that such sacrifices like "no costume loading during combat" may be necessary it's again hardly ideal.
I'm simply pointing out that if the effort to do something "wonderful" in one area requires too much sacrifice in other areas I'd like to be reassured the Devs of CoT have seriously considered all the ramifications of that. Having great costumes would be nice but if that makes the rest of the game run like crap then maybe things like that need to be reconsidered all things being equal.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Precisely why, at this moment, we aren’t allowing costume changes in combat. So for low end ysers the game doesn’t “run like crap”.
We also managed to reduce the amount of ldraw calls necessary through several tricks of neweer tech compared to the old game. But we also are adding a lot more options to costumes than the old game did.
If peoplemwithbolder machines can play the game at a decent frame rate - and they may have to reduce many effects and details to a minimum, than anyone with a decent gaming machine will be fine and of course anyone with high end rigs will have the game run great and look awesome all at the same time.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Which is exactly MY point. Is having "super fancy costumes" worth having to put up with all sorts of limitations just so the game doesn’t “run like crap”? I want nice costumes as much as anyone. BUT if getting those costumes REQUIRES silliness like "not allowing costume changes in combat" are you sure A) it's worth it or B) that you're doing it right in the first place?
I get that these things always require compromise. Again I would just warn you that if you have to throw a bunch of limitations on us just to make one thing work (in this case the fancy costumes) you need to really be sure that one thing (the fancy costumes) is [b]really worth[/b] all the sacrifices to make it work the way you're trying to make it work.
Again I get that you have to make sure the game runs reasonably well on relatively old/budget machines. I've known this about game development for maybe 40 years now. Stop repeating this standard Dev boilerplate.
Again I'll try one more time to put this as simply as possible - if you limit/sacrifice too many things in order to make a particular feature work (i.e. fancy costumes) it might NOT be worth the trade-off. What I'm telling you is that you might be so focused on wanting the costumes to be as "complex" as possible that you might be making too many sacrifices for that. In the long run it might actually be better for the costuming system to be a bit "less complex" for the sake of the rest of the game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
So, OP: What Do I Want of Shape-Shifting?
Shape-Shifting Parts of Your Caracter As Your Power (Aesthetics for the power) ie: shape Arm into Cannon, Fire, and Back // Leg into Scythe, Kick, shift back. Would be interesting.
I posted a while ago a Commander Concept:
https://cityoftitans.com/forum/commander-type-spirit-summoner
In this post/repost I suggested a Commander Set where Pets ‘possess’ defeated NPC models with an added Aura/Costume piece (ie chains wrapped around NPC model) - This use of other models is in essence a shape-shift of the Pet from a floaty orb into a Goon now surrounded by that orbs light aura.
Other suggestions are also cool: Change into Animal (also suggested as a use of a Pet Model: Ride the Tiger...pet) or a Combat Mode/Stance (one of those Jedi games had multiple Stances with different movements based on the set stance) or y’know, change into an alien beastie when in combat mode.
Meh. Bah!
One thing is being “sacrificed” currently - costume changing during combat. And it is not set in stone.
For what is gained as a trade off which is a HUGE amount of customization - has been determined to be worth it.
This doesn’t take shape shifting off the table. We can do that. We can do a lot already with morphs to change shapes and keep costume pieces too.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
All I can ask in these cases is that you do your best to justify why we're likely [b]losing[/b] a capability we had in CoH. If you can honestly tell someone like me it'll be "worth it" even though it will in fact impact my ability to "simulate" shapechanging (via changing costumes during combat) then you're simply going to have to work extra hard to convince me sight unseen.
Who knows, maybe in the long run you'll convince me. For the time being all I see is the loss of a capability (costume changes during combat) to help facilitate something I've [b]never[/b] seen before (because I still have no personal access to the character creator to judge for myself). Can you at least put yourself in my shoes enough to realize that to me this current scenario represents a net negative at this point.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It is clear that you are not Canadian. It is also clear that you are neither remorseful nor regretful with what you are saying and how you are saying it.
I too have a significant computer science oriented career, it does not mean that I have a firm grasp on the current status of the CoT project or know what has been discussed internally. I do not care for your tone or the combative stance you are taking with dev even after Tannim has repeatedly stated that the combat costume change ability has been tabled for a later date. What is it that you think you are going to gain by being a pain in the butt?
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
I have understanding for you feeling that this may become a net negative but the degree you go to to express it is to me excessive, it's like you want a personal recognition of your "plight". To me, it sounds like you're essentially saying that they shouldn't even mention these kinds of limitations unless they can conclusively prove it by words alone for everyone that it is worth it, or we get to play with the new system.
With the features and capability we will have compared to the old game, this is by no means a net negative. It may be a deal breaker for you based on your personal expectation, but the game itself is still coming out above it's predecessor almost every way possible.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
I agree with .Foresight. It may be a net negative for a very specific set of players, but I've my doubts that the majority of players would want to compromise on the AB so that they can switch costumes during combat.
Even if swapping costumes in combat won't be available at launch, I expect that they'll have plans to make it available in a year or two. The game's minimum system requirements will have to be updated eventually.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I am slightly sad to hear we won't be able to change costumes in combat (at least at launch), but I agree that it's well worth it if it's the price of a more flexible and capable costume creator.
I'm curious, though: how does the game know whether one is 'in combat'? Is it determined by proximity to enemies or being actively under attack/attacking or something else? If your team is fighting but you back off around a corner for a minute, would you no longer be considered 'in combat'? Just wondering how this will work -- and are there other elements of the game that will react to this state?
Spurn all ye kindle.
In combat have you generated threat sufficiently to gain aggro of an npc? Have you been attacked by an enemy? If yes, you are in a combat state.
And please remember that we have to optimize for performance and test on a larger scale to see what will and won’t be possible to accomplish with our expected minimmm settings.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks Tannim. What resets the flag to be not in combat anymore? Time since you last aggroed someone?
Aye, fair enough. But even if we never get costume switching in combat I think on the whole we'll still be better off.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Time is a factor in reducing your threat vs npcs, so yes.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I agree with Lothic, at least a little.
I'm of the mind that modern games should push the limits, and list the minimum system requirements to reflect that.
Someone gaming on a budget or old laptop/PC is probably already used to it being a poor experience. If you want a high end gaming experience, gotta fork out for the high end gear. Such is life.
Limiting the game to cater to junk computers is an insult to those of us that have invested in gaming machines.
On the other hand, many games restrict many features during combat. Ideally we get our hands on a test build soon so we can see just what's going on here.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
Did that many people really change their costumes during combat? I mean this seems to be an EXTREMELY niche thing. I didn't even realize you [I]could[/I] do that in COH. If it's possible to have combat costume changes in CoT without too much difficulty - sure - include it, but if it's one or the other (at least at this time), the most important feature is obvious; a better character creator system.
I know some dominators had a macro to costume change during domination. I rarely, if ever, saw it used in combat outside that example. Honestly it doesn't sound like a big limitation to me, I get some may be against the 'step backwards' in principle, but what a small hill to die on for something not set in stone. I think people are considering solo play and not a super group of morons spamming costume changes in the middle of a large scale event. It's not reasonable use that gets things banned, removed, censored, etc, it's the unreasonable usage.
I can't begin to put into words how much I'd rather have the most advanced avatar builder over being able to change costumes in combat. I could see some very cool things being possible if we could, but if we can't look as good in the first place why does it matter? Especially for a feature that may be possible down the line. My feeling is to get the best possible creator out first, and provide a relatively small function out later when the game has been launched and polished.
I definitely agree with the last three comments. I have one singular idea for a character that could transform mid-combat - and that'd be a werewolf. Is that necessary, even for that character? Not even remotely. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if it's pulling resources away from other things, it's a waste to include. So yeah, put my vote in the "no combat transforms" column.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
The concern is less about that one small function, and more about the implications of it.
If changing costumes lags the game so much that we have to disable it, there might be a problem with how costumes are being done.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
I disagree, Warlocc. It's the fact that it adds load to the computers of given players. The reason this is a bad thing is because additional load, even if it's done properly, means that you're looking at missing cues. Someone swaps to a different costume mid-combat in pvp, and for the next five seconds you can't respond to the actions he's taking because he's invisible because you have a low-end computer. Now imagine what happens if a team of five people do that at once. this game is designed with low-end users in mind, and needs to be able to support them without unfairly favoring higher-end rigs.
And that's without addressing the PvE concerns. Say someone's super group activates this during a raid, all together, for something that should be a fairly impressive show of particle effects and the like, right? Maybe they want to do a video to show off? well, it'd cause problems because chances are you suddenly can't see the AoE markers coming at you, and depending on how the system responds to suddenly loading in a bunch of new costumes, it could even make it so you can't see the boss moving, which is a VERY bad thing.
What's the way around this? You just have to load in all the costumes of a given character at once when you come into the map. The problem with THAT is that it will multiply the character load by as much as times ten, causing humongous problems that even the best servers in the world wouldn't be able to handle, nevermind the absolutely astonishing load times it'll force on people. This would happen even among lower-end games, nevermind one in which customization is a big draw of the game.
As for how it would affect the game if they DID roll back the character creator to be simpler so that they could have non-crazy load times? [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zD33Hrbo4Y]Well, I'll refer you to Stardock's Elemental: War of Magic fared on that front.[/url] reviews panned them because they had to take out so much of what made the game good to make the thing work at all. City of Titans is set up to draw in people in large part because of the incredibly robust character creator, and if they were to dumb that down, it'd turn into a Peter Mollyneux shenanigan, and [i]nobody[/i] wants that, least of all the devs themselves.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
There's a big difference between disabling it for gameplay reasons vs technical reasons. Some of what you listed is gameplay reasons, which make absolute sense.
But again, If the game has no way to handle costume loading efficiently, that's a concern.
Using your example: If characters turn invisible while they're loading, PvP ambushes, pre-combat will be how it gets abused instead of mid-combat. No need to slot the stealth ambush power if you can just make a complex costume and slot something else to have both effects.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the creator should be limited or that combat swapping should be allowed.
My concern is with costume loading in general. If it's being disabled for tech and not gameplay reasons, that means there's an issue with the tech.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
The "problem" here is not so much changing costumes but that costumes need to be baked/compiled client side before they are properly shown, and from memory that could take up to 10 secs. NPC ones are pre-baked/compiled. You also have to take into consideration that in combat it's not just the costume but also the power aesthetics that take computing resources, not sure how much you bake/compile there but the modularity and flexibility seems to be on par with the costume creator.
I'd rather see that they delay a feature to make sure it plays nice with the rest of the system, especially when they haven't done all the optimizations due to not having sufficient data to base those optimizations on.
I read in a tech magazine a few years back that a vast majority of PC gamers do NOT actually have "high end gear" or even gaming computers to begin with. Really, a game that is not compatible with the majority of players' equipment has less potential income. Yes, it should be capable of scaling higher for those with high end equipment but if it's designed around that fact to the point it makes it unplayable for most gamers it's not going to be as profitable for a company.
I admit, I didn't actually have a gaming rig until the last couple years of playing CoX. Honestly, it made very little actual impact on my love of the game throughout the years. With a good internet connection the game was almost enjoyable on the lowest graphics as it was on the highest because it was a well rounded game.
My first main character in City of Heroes was a Claws/Regen Scrapper named .Warewolf. Lol.
In the beginning he was purely in werewolf form, but as I unlocked costume slots and learned macros he eventually spent most of his time in 'human' form and had a costume change emote to the werewolf when I activated one of my combat toggles. XD
It was a fun feature, but I can definitely say it was never a make-or-break sort of thing.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Devs need to take into account worst case scenarios and the potential for abuse. Especially on a full team, if three or four people decide to change their costumes during combat it could bring some people's computers to their knees (as .Foresight points out). Heck, it's not a great experience if you try to use a feature and it turns the game into a slideshow for however long.
It's important to remember that minimum requirements are a moving target. The minimum requirements today may not be the same even a year from now. In my view it's less important to have it now than it is to know it's something they can make available in the future.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
For me shapeshifting is not as much about a role playing or maybe character concept issue (although those ideas are good points and cool... I'm in favor of them). I'm thinking of shape shifting in terms of something like a powerset. Flexibility in game play. Here is where I say I was a fan of the Keld's. It meant we could carry multiple possibilities on to a team (ether balance an unbalanced team or strengthen an area on that team that was already strong based on your play style... all on the fly). You could tailor your character / play it with a lot of flexibility. The soloing flexibility is great. The flexibility also helps a person desiring to be a team player with team needs both inside and outside your play style.
I am a Sci-Fi fan so the keld's lent itself pretty well to me personally (being able to customize the individual Keld forms might have been cool but...)
I really like the idea of shape shifting. Each form maybe have to draw from a limited set of powers corresponding to some set of rules... depending on whatever shapeshifter type... fill in the blanks...
I like the idea to shape shifters as character concepts / solo flexibility / team role floaters.
In terms of issues of actual costume changes between roles.. well.. If it took a significant amount of time that would be a problem to the whole concept, but I'm not opposed to a simple bright light particle explosion to mask the costume switch. That should be simple enough and so crazy low tech it has been done for decades... At least as a placeholder and then you have some other cooler graphic. I'm saying this so as to not get too hung up on details. The point being I personally don't care about the mechanics of the costume change, but the concept of the Shapeshifter I like for the above reasons.
So.. to hopefully help with the OP original discussion, I like the Sci-Fi concept, but a Swamp-Thing shapeshifter concept would be cool. Patterned after the flexibility of the Keld's (A tank, a blaster, a normal / mix, etc..). But like the Keld's you can ignore that flexibility if you wish for your own custom build.
Side note... Somewhat off topic, but relevant: I also liked that Keld's had their own arch enemy that followed them around randomly. Something like that might be cool.. customizable arch enemy... That would be cool too.
For anyone who doesn't follow the Discord, we got some neat tidbits from Dr. Tyche about costumes.
A CoH costume was about 1kb of data. What allowed it's instantaneous costume switching was when a player entered your area, you loaded EVERY costume they had at once. So it wasn't you loading Alpha Squire's costume, but all 4-12 costumes he had which were kept in your computer's memory. This also lends to why costume slots were restricted so much, even a 1kb, a game that released in the dial up era had to keep in mind another costume slot was another 1kb of data per character in your vicinity + memory usage.
CoT on the other hand, takes 120kb of data per costume. So 120 times more data. Doc also said he doesn't like hard limits, and we've heard nothing about costume slot restrictions. It could very well be you just save as many costumes as you want for your character on your own end. BUT, that also means you're not loading all the alternate costumes players have all at once. If someone changes costumes, everyone in the area needs to suddenly load it. While that data is only 120kb, your computer still needs to search the game files and pull together all the various models and textures. On it's own, that's not necessarily a large deal, until you get super groups all getting into uniform at once, people changing during high load global events, or that one guy trying to spam costume change to deliberately grief those on low end systems.
I always love learning these things about how the very core of a game was modeled, such as how what CoH accomplished with instant switching meant they had restrict costume slots. Seems CoT didn't go that route which is why, at least for now (it's subject to change later based on performance), changing costumes in combat is restricted. While the unlimited costumes slots is just me extrapolating with no confirmation, it fits with the devs trying to avoid limits on our creativity. Unless of course, your creativity is strictly based on changing costume in combat, for now.
As to PlanetaeyWarfareBot's side note above, I'd be weary of a customized arch enemy system. Champion's Online has one that really fell flat, not because they necessarily did it wrong, but the reality of it. Sure we can make them look like what ever we like, but what they say and how they act would depend on pre-sets that would never really capture the actual idea in our head. For the same reason all of our characters response's in CoT aren't word for word but a descriptive of the tone we choose. Examples: Brush it off, laugh it off, counter threat, remain silent. As hesitant as they are to put words in our character's mouths, I can see them not wanting to put words in our custom enemy's either. Also, there's no clear cut hero/villain divide, so it would be difficult to even classify what our rival does or why we're directly opposed.
That is a good point. I only was on CO for a very short while. Not long enough to know this. But maybe it is something the Dev's can chew on and come up with some new cool idea for issue 20 ;) Put a pin in it.
One possibility is certain "fixed variables", like a ranged attack where the character's arm stretches out and punches the target, or where a portion of the arm is replaced by a blade from a limited set for a melee attack. I don't know if they'd be [i]enough[/i] easier on the data streams, but it might be something to consider.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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McJigg: Thanks for that information. My problem with the official responses in this thread (though I didn't comment; it didn't seem worth it to get in the middle of that argument) was that the response was just basically "We can't because of low end systems", which rang kind of dismissive and non-informative, especially considering how detailed responses have been at other times. It's nice to know the thought processes behind decisions the MWM team has made, especially when those decisions are disappointing. I don't think anyone likes it when it feels like the reasons are arbitrary, even despite the faith MWM has built up in the past regarding how much thought they've put into the game.
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Errant, TNT, Vibrant and Fluxion on Liberty