Discuss: How We Made the Rook Slicer Costume

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: How We Made the Rook Slicer Costume

Discuss away

Read the update here

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Planet10
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Is there a step 8 with a

Is there a step 8 with a completed costume?

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I love seeing glimpses of the

I love seeing glimpses of the process like this. I really like the look and feel, and I'm excited to see the quality of the figure model shown here in close-up.

And I'm a guy who loves to play low-level stuff, so it's always a treat to get a peek at the Rooks rounding into shape.

Obviously it's a lot of work, even to do simple things like this. Kudos to CajunCatfish, Fleshforge, and everyone else working on this stuff.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Is there a step 8 with a completed costume?

The costume is ready. The female model isn't. (We discussed it a bit in last week's Twitch stream)

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I like the filler there,

I like the filler there, "LACES."

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Is there a step 8 with a completed costume?

The costume is ready. The female model isn't. (We discussed it a bit in last week's Twitch stream)

I believe '10' meant the final version of the costume, with material textures and surface details. Presumably, those still need to be applied, given the final image in the presentation. It's Great, as far as it went.

As for the female model, I like what I'm seeing. A very realistic and 'achievable' shape. They can't all be 'super-shaped', like in Grrl Power.

Be Well!
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Planet10 wrote:
Is there a step 8 with a completed costume?
The costume is ready. The female model isn't. (We discussed it a bit in last week's Twitch stream)

Yeah, would have been nice to see that last step, but I like everything I see in this update. I especially agree with Fireheart about the base female model shape.

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Classy. I like it.

Classy. I like it.

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If I didn't know any better,

If I didn't know any better, I'd start assuming that there are REAL FEMALES on the avatar modeling team, because ...


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Aye, what the others have

Aye, what the others have said. Enjoy seeing how things like this are developed, and the realistic proportions on the female body type. I also already have a sort of fondness for the Rooks on par with some of the low-level groups from the old city.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I definitely like the

I definitely like the realistic proportions. Of course, I like that there's the option for unrealistic as well. Versatility of design is the hallmark of a good tool!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Planet10 wrote:
Is there a step 8 with a completed costume?
The costume is ready. The female model isn't. (We discussed it a bit in last week's Twitch stream)

After thinking about it a little more, I think my response needs some clarification.
Depending on the type of content for the update (lore, animation, models, etc) we can see varying levels of detail and completeness. It is nice to see some of the creative process & behind the scenes steps taken to reach the current stage of development. If possible, when the update does not provide a completed design/process/feature, I would like to know what else is needed to complete it.

Specifically in this update I want to see the finished model or at least know what step(s) are remaining to complete the outfit. Maybe a completed outfit of any equivalent NPC that is 'finished' to see the level of detail. Right now all we have to speculate on is the concept art and some meshes. If the point of the update was to step us through the design process, we need to see where it leads.

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Are you planning on showing

Are you planning on showing us how you create every single tier of every single hero/villain group?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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I expect that they just did

I expect that they just did so, since Fleshforge probably uses the same process for all NPC costumes.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Are you planning on showing us how you create every single tier of every single hero/villain group?

I think we'd have to update every week from now to launch about nothing else to do that. Possibly more often.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Are you planning on showing us how you create every single tier of every single hero/villain group?

Wait a sec here, guys...

I'm feeling like this is a rhetorical question to express frustration.

Am I right?

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I'm curious, how much further

I'm curious, how much further does this example costume have to go? For instance, at what (later) stage:
...are editable sections of the NPC's costume defined, so that they can be manipulated with color (and possibly material) in the avatar builder?
...are the list of allowed materials for each section defined, glow limits set, and any default colors/materials/glow levels chosen?
...is the costume divided into pieces which are named, linked as applicable to a specific layer/region of character model, marked as usable/unuseable/unlockable to players, and then possibly re-grouped into a named costume set?

It is correct to assume that all costume elements for NPCs (and PCs) are built in this "gray geometry" software we're seeing, up to a certain prefabricated point? What is the software, by the way? To finalize the character design, do you then use the avatar builder (or some feature-unlocked version of it) to select the female character model, adjust body settings to fit the art for "Rook Slicer", select this prefabricated costume set, then adjust color/material/glow of the already defined editable sections, within the limits set at an earlier stage ...essentially the same process that we'd use for a PC that was going to use a costume set? Would you then make several variants of the Rook Slicer with different body settings or slight costume adjustments so that spawns have variety while still following a recognizable "I'm a Rook Slicer minion" theme, or do you have a system to semi-randomize the minions as they are spawned?

Or perhaps a broader question: What steps beyond #7 weren't shown in the example? I'm quite content to wait for a future update for the detailed version and pictures, but a basic list of the other stages would be helpful to our understanding of the entire process.

A very interesting update - thanks Fleshforge!

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Wait a sec here, guys...
I'm feeling like this is a rhetorical question to express frustration.
Am I right?

Hey man nope! I was honestly asking. Reading it back now it does seem a little snarky. My fault for firing off a question super fast while at work

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Hey man nope! I was honestly asking. Reading it back now it does seem a little snarky. My fault for firing off a question super fast while at work

HA! My bad. I totally misinterpreted the tone.

Dang lack of nonverbal cuing in text :P.

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It is usually best to assume

It is usually best to assume the best while only fearing the worst

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I can't tell if that exceeds

I can't tell if that exceeds even my levels of pessimism or is generally optimistic.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
Are you planning on showing us how you create every single tier of every single hero/villain group?
I think we'd have to update every week from now to launch about nothing else to do that. Possibly more often.

I mean. An update every week from now until launch doesn't necessarily sound bad to me...

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They have talked about it

They have talked about it before. It's too much of a time sink. Basically someone has to give their volunteer work week over to making the update. So they decided every two weeks was a reasonable compromise. Which is a lot more than even some professional studios. Who might give an update at E3 every year or leave you hanging. So I'll take it.

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I think its missing that

I think its missing that bagginess that the concept art has, but its still a cool design.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think its missing that bagginess that the concept art has, but its still a cool design.

You can see the beginning of it in the pockets, but the drape of the cloth won't really show until there's a detail map like the one they were talking about on the boots.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think its missing that bagginess that the concept art has, but its still a cool design.

That's a good point. We've already seen other deviations between the 2D and 3D art in this update.

In the Camelot Unchained twitch streams we get to watch in real-time as the artists ply their trades. It is truly mesmerising and awe-inspiring and I recommend anyone to go watch some of their archived videos. I've actually commented on the stream chat about how painstakingly the 3D artist adheres to the 2D art. They're usually too busy to reply to those observations, but now I understand. The 3D artist has no way of knowing what is or is not crucial to the look and feel of the subject, so they have no choice but to try to faithfully recreate every detail they can. Therefore some feedback loop needs to be in place between the two, with some director authority with the powers of negation to prevent the artists from overindulging of course. Did that happen here?

I personally think the cloth folds in the pants of the Slicer that @Cajuncatfish gave her are a better look than the spandex look that @Fleshforge made. The pockets and folds impart a feeling more of the street than of a corporate sponsor. How will MWM deal with this now and in the future?

Edit: In Fleshforge's defense, however, I do see that he actually ran the suspenders under the pinstripe detail in the bustier. That is a detail I had to look at twice to figure out why he did it. So I have to say, that is indeed very faithfully executed.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I think its missing that bagginess that the concept art has, but its still a cool design.
That's a good point. We've already seen other deviations between the 2D and 3D art in this update.
In the Camelot Unchained twitch streams we get to watch in real-time as the artists ply their trades. It is truly mesmerising and awe-inspiring and I recommend anyone to go watch some of their archived videos. I've actually commented on the stream chat about how painstakingly the 3D artist adheres to the 2D art. They're usually too busy to reply to those observations, but now I understand. The 3D artist has no way of knowing what is or is not crucial to the look and feel of the subject, so they have no choice but to try to faithfully recreate every detail they can. Therefore some feedback loop needs to be in place between the two, with some director authority with the powers of negation to prevent the artists from overindulging of course. Did that happen here?
I personally think the cloth folds in the pants of the Slicer that @Cajuncatfish gave her are a better look than the spandex look that @Fleshforge made. The pockets and folds impart a feeling more of the street than of a corporate sponsor. How will MWM deal with this now and in the future?
Edit: In Fleshforge's defense, however, I do see that he actually ran the suspenders under the pinstripe detail in the bustier. That is a detail I had to look at twice to figure out why he did it. So I have to say, that is indeed very faithfully executed.

The bagginess is added in the normal map, which adds the final details like that.

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

I'm curious, how much further does this example costume have to go? For instance, at what (later) stage:
...are editable sections of the NPC's costume defined, so that they can be manipulated with color (and possibly material) in the avatar builder?
...are the list of allowed materials for each section defined, glow limits set, and any default colors/materials/glow levels chosen?
...is the costume divided into pieces which are named, linked as applicable to a specific layer/region of character model, marked as usable/unuseable/unlockable to players, and then possibly re-grouped into a named costume set?
It is correct to assume that all costume elements for NPCs (and PCs) are built in this "gray geometry" software we're seeing, up to a certain prefabricated point?

Correct

Quote:

What is the software, by the way?

Autodesk Maya, Cinema4d, zBrush, and Mudbox are all used.

Quote:

To finalize the character design, do you then use the avatar builder (or some feature-unlocked version of it) to select the female character model, adjust body settings to fit the art for "Rook Slicer", select this prefabricated costume set, then adjust color/material/glow of the already defined editable sections, within the limits set at an earlier stage ...essentially the same process that we'd use for a PC that was going to use a costume set?

Precisely. That is why we've done an update on this, as it gives a clear, visual example of the process up to the point we can show it thus far.

Quote:

Would you then make several variants of the Rook Slicer with different body settings or slight costume adjustments so that spawns have variety while still following a recognizable "I'm a Rook Slicer minion" theme, or do you have a system to semi-randomize the minions as they are spawned?

We have a system to semi-randomize the minions as they are spawned.

Quote:

Or perhaps a broader question: What steps beyond #7 weren't shown in the example? I'm quite content to wait for a future update for the detailed version and pictures, but a basic list of the other stages would be helpful to our understanding of the entire process.
A very interesting update - thanks Fleshforge!

We still have to make the normal masks, the bumps, and the material masking for the clothing. Then we have to do the morph alignment, so that the body morphs are applied to the clothing itself. Then we have to do the under-clothing polygon elimination mask, so we're not rendering unseen polygons.

Technical Director

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I think you guys missed the

I think you guys missed the last line. He talks about adding the wrinkles and fine details and textures later. He refers to this as the complete "low poly." He's kinda being a tease. "There it's almost done. See the finished product in the game."

I would have preferred to see the complete model with fine details too, but I suspect either time or "management" were limiting factors.

EDIT: Drat ninja'd by DT

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I cant wait until we get to a

I cant wait until we get to a point where when you click on a cape chaser page you see a large screenshot with each villain group posing with their weapons in their respective area of the city in full color with all their villainy details.

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Thank you for the many

Thank you for the many answers, Doctor. The semi-randomizing enemy spawn system will be interesting to see in action. Guess I should give partial credit to CoH for the diverse wandering citizenry - a nice dose of realism for friendly NPCs.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I cant wait until we get to a point where when you click on a cape chaser page you see a large screenshot with each villain group posing with their weapons in their respective area of the city in full color with all their villainy details.

Neither can we Titan. Neither can we.

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I think I like these updates

I think I like these updates best. Tech and lore are great too. But glimpses into what the world and it's inhabitants will look like make me all warm and fuzzy.

Keep up the rad work!

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Tinkhard wrote:
Tinkhard wrote:

I think I like these updates best. Tech and lore are great too. But glimpses into what the world and it's inhabitants will look like make me all warm and fuzzy.
Keep up the rad work!

I would have to agree, I'm am very biased towards the construction/costuming updates, but I know without the story there is no game, so I'll just keep enjoying the periodic yummy updates when they come out :)

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Hey, hello, that's my work :)

Hey, hello, that's my work :)

Grimfox wrote:

I think you guys missed the last line. He talks about adding the wrinkles and fine details and textures later. He refers to this as the complete "low poly." He's kinda being a tease. "There it's almost done. See the finished product in the game."
I would have preferred to see the complete model with fine details too, but I suspect either time or "management" were limiting factors.
EDIT: Drat ninja'd by DT

This is correct and I haven't done that phase of the work yet for this suit. This is an example of how that type of stuff is done (when it's done, which it is not done):

Some modelers have a completely different workflow where they sculpt all this stuff first and then remodel the low poly mesh around that, and tbh that's the more modern way game content is done but I'm an old dog and I haven't learned all the new tricks. The results are the same, when they are done.

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I know we've barely had a

I know we've barely had a glimpse of how things are really going to look yet, but I've really liked the looks of what we have seen so far.

Keep it up Flesh Forge et al.

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This is another piece with

This is another piece with that same kind of detailing baked into a normal map and actually shown on the low poly mesh:

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Does this mean we're going to

Does this mean we're going to have a leather/pleather looking thong leotard with a zipper on it?! Tell me it's a given!!! :D

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I don't have full control

I don't have full control over content but yes I like that type of outfit (structurally like 80s workout outfits) and I'm pretty sure it's "safe" under our ratings constraints.

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It was safe under CoH, I had

It was safe under CoH, I had no reason to believe it wouldn't be under CoT. o.O

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Update of Butts. I approve.

Update of Butts. I approve.

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Flesh Forge wrote:
Flesh Forge wrote:

I don't have full control over content but yes I like that type of outfit (structurally like 80s workout outfits) and I'm pretty sure it's "safe" under our ratings constraints.

You read it here first; 80s outfit costume pack TBA!
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Or a lot of bruthas, because.

"If I didn't know any better, I'd start assuming that there are REAL FEMALES on the avatar modeling team, because ..."

Or a lot of bruthas, because..well, everyone knows what we like by now......

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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Or just some people who go

Or just some people who go "What? Make comic book supers look like comic book supers? That's just silly!" :p

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Are there even many or any

Are there even many or any skinny female heroes? Even Jubilee wasn't puny. I guess it depends on the artist.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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She was. Now isn't. Other's

She was. Now isn't. Other's who were more skinny and then became more curvy.

While not a stick, I don't recall one of my favorite Image heroes, Adrenalynn being typical curvy super hero.

However, yes, a lot of it depends on the artist.

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'Nuff said.

'Nuff said.


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Can't think of any from

Can't think of any from Marvel or DC who weren't in their early teens ( or earlier) when introduced. In other continua, Halo from Grrl Power, but she's an exception in her own comic; and Astra from Wearing The Cape at age eighteen described herself as "an underdeveloped teenage Tinkerbell", but like many capes in that continuum, has a bit of enhancement built into her costume.

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