Sounds good. Looks like I'll be a subscriber once again.

warlocc wrote:

Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm understanding this wrong:
Lockbox = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (cool item).
Booster Pack = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (random cool item).
How is this not making the whales gamble?

Lockbox= stuff that requires a key to unlock, typically with the key being purchased. Often what might be in it is not accessible in any other manner. Until it is unlocked, or you choose to throw it away, it takes up space in your inventory, taunting you with what might be in it.
Booster Pack: stuff that you buy in the store, when you want to buy it. Until you decide to buy it, it sits in the store, waiting patiently. Also, the random cool item is (/em goes back and double checks update) potentially available in game:

update wrote:

If you can’t or won’t buy though, you can unlock any of the in-game store items for a single character through gameplay, by earning certain in-game badges.

Everything looks good to me. Just one thought: Offer several subscription plans such as month-to-month, quarterly, half-year, and annual.

Some of us like to pay for a full year in advance so we don't have to think about it.

BTW, has anyone seen this update in their mailbox yet? I just checked all my filters (server side and client side)...

Yup had it in my mail.

This sounds fine to me. I just have one thought.

While I'm more than happy to pay to get a hold of the game (in triplicate for me and my wife and son--and we'll all have subscriptions), and I know the "purchase price" (really a prepay for premium time) is at least in part to discourage good miners, many games that started with a purchase price have moved away from the B2P model to reduce the barrier to entry and get more people to try their game.

Since there is a cash shop and so theoretically there would be some money made from even free players, could it be better to open your doors with a "Freemuim" model, as you plan, but no prepay/purchase price so as to get more people to give the game a try since CoT is small-niche indie effort?

I know y'all have thought this through ad nauseum and I think the "prepay/buy in" is genius in many ways, I only bring this up because it's the main possible drawback that I see to your model due to the start up and nice nature of the game.

Redlynne wrote:

warlocc wrote:
Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm understanding this wrong:
Lockbox = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (cool item).
Booster Pack = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (random cool item).
How is this not making the whales gamble?
The way that Star Trek Online (and I understand a great many other games) work it is that the Lockbox contains a list of items, each with RANDOM odds to drop, with the most wanted items (of course) having the LOWEST random odds to drop ... meaning you need to buy lots and lots of keys to unlock lots and lots of lockboxes to actually get what you're wanting from the lockbox. How many keys you need is random (of course), but the odds are deliberately set to favor the house so as to turn Players into gamblers and keep them gambling. In the past year, Perfect World Entertainment released some of the most highly sought after items ever in a time limited lockbox window that had people spending hundreds of real $$$ (each!) to buy up keys and then use those to open thousands of lockboxes in the hunt for the rarest of drop chances. It was literally Pay To Grind The RNG. It was just pissing on the Players without the decency to call it "rain" while laughing all the way to the bank.
Games like Star Trek Online like to keep the best content "locked" behind random chances to unlock that you have to pay for to even try to get. That way, how much it costs an individual Player is RANDOM rather than preset and it feeds a gambling addiction so as to get Players to spend MORE $$$ than they otherwise would have for a set price reward. People were actually shelling out more real $$$ on the limited time lockbox I mentioned above for a single absurdly rare drop than the price of a Lifetime Subscription to the game. Seriously. The words "cash grab" don't even begin to describe what it felt like to see this happen. It was just the latest proof/evidence that the game was really only for the Whales, and everyone else was an afterthought (quickly forgotten). Not long afterwards, I got fed up with Star Trek Online (again) and simply stopped playing (again), because THE GRIND was all the "game" had left at that point, since it felt more like a dead end JOB on a self-perpetuating treadmill than a GAME by then.
The Booster Pack idea turns that upside down, according to what I'm reading. Rather than making everything random and exclusive to the Lockbox, instead the contents of the Booster Pack are consistent and predictable (so you'll know what you'll get in advance) and the main draw is the dependable content of the pack. But you'll also get 1 random "bonus" item that could come from outside the Booster Pack's designed contents. So instead of being 100% UNcertain what you're going to get (see: gambling addiction), you can instead have 90-95% certainty of what you're going to get, and the only thing that's randomized is the added on bonus, which is just a "freebie" thrown in for having bought a bundle, rather than something which is unique and exclusive to buying the Booster Pack at all.

^^^^
This

It's taken me a while to come round to the position of accepting the concept of non-sub-only game, but I'm on board with that now. For me, having to buy the 'box' is an essential part of the model, to ensure that MWM at least gets something for their hard work. The bit I'm still a bit unsure about is the idea that all content, features, and systems for sale in the shop will be earnable through play. Is there nothing that will be exclusive to the shop? Even new power sets and archetypes? What about expansions? It sounds to me like a patient person who doesn't need early access and enjoys putting tons of hours into the game will have nothing to buy in the shop because s/he will eventually get it all from just playing. Which means a subscription for that person would be more like a donation to MWM than an actual purchase of anything. Can you folks at MWM help me get my head round this please?

One thing I am extremely pleased about is your stance on lockboxes. That sounds like a great compromise and decent ethical stance. Well done MWM!

So buying the ninja booster could also net you the giant shoes from the clown booster. Or the goggles from the steampunk booster.

Nother question. If I've been very spendy and I own everything in the store, and I buy the newest just released booster what do I get as a bonus item? Token of appreciation? Phrased another way, is there a chance I get something from the bonus that I already own?

Klaleara wrote:

I mean, this might seem small. But I would personally re-word to be more...clear on what it does. To me, it sounded like a PR way of saying "We aren't using lockbox's! It functions like one, but its called something else!"
That and "Booster Pack" is kinda mis-leading in today's format. Usually booster is some sort of temporary buff or consumable of some sort.
I approve of this though. If I understand it correctly.

When I think of Booster packs I think more along the lines of TCG and I think that is the origin of MWM definition. Where a booster pack would be 15 cards from a particular theme. In this case you aren't buying blind, you'll be able to see all but one item in the booster. The bonus item, which will exist somewhere in the store.

As they have stated it's not a blind pack. It's more like buying a sheet out of someone's binder. You can see everything there, and as a bonus there is a extra card tucked in behind one of the others.

Cinnder wrote:

Klaleara wrote:
Everything in Warframe is earnable in-game, and they are doing amazing money wise. Without any gambling too. They do however, consistently push out more content. Something that many F2P MMO's fail to do.
Sure, it may be a viable model, but the question I'm asking is what's the incentive for a patient player who puts in many hours of play to give MWM any money after the initial purchase? Other than their gratitude and goodwill, of course. :-)
I suppose it could take a really, really long time to earn things through play. Just cuz something is earnable doesn't mean it has to be easily earnable.

The per-character vs global element. How many times did you groan over needing to grind the same content again to unlock a part for a new character? Recall, our aim is to encourage alting.

City of Heroes sold Booster packs with cosmetic items exclusive to the store. I believe the term that MWM is using stems from that. I'm ok with the booster packs and the cash shop having exclusive items not available from grinding the game for hours. The difference I see here is that in CoH the booster was a random loot table (aka lockbox) where here its more like a bundle w/ discounts plus a random freebie. I do not mind paying for the things I want in the cash shop as long as it is cosmetic stuff, new power sets, xpacs and stuff like that. What I don't want is P2W. Hopefully the prices on the cash shop will be reasonable. For example, $5- $10 (Or the equivalent of it in STARS) for the ninja bundle that was mentioned is perfectly acceptable. With of course the occasional flash sale every once and while on older packs w/ discounts.

I think the B2P + Sub model is a great idea and should curb "gold" sellers. I am curious though about what the VIP rewards are going to be for subbing. I'm sure that has been talked about internally but, anything you can share with us? Should I expect something similar to the way CoH did it (monthly in game currency + multi tiered Veteran Rewards)?

Doctor Tyche wrote:

We did make mention of our alternative to veteran rewards in the writeup, which we have tentatively termed loyalty tokens. The only part of the subscription we did not mention was early access. A subscriber will have access to a test server, and will have earlier access to content/items/unlocks than the non-subscriber. Not a *huge* lead time, talking 30-90 days depending on what it is, but still earlier access. I know this model has worked well in several other games as well.

Sounds good Doc. Thanks for sharing!

PrinceAuryn wrote:

Sounds pretty interesting. I'm curious about how many characters slots we'll start the game with. I'm somewhat hopeful we'll get 3 to 5 at the start. I know I restarted several times the first time I played CoH just to figure out what class I wanted to play as.

I only just realized our edits accidentally removed that information. It'll be in the website version when it goes up this evening.

And the answer is six. You start with six slots.

Hooray for monetization! :)

Edit:
On the subject of "When is a lockbox a lockbox, and what exactly is a booster then?". In GW2, the game causes you to acquire "Black Lion Chest" objects as randomized in-game treasure. These cannot be opened unless you spend a Black Lion Key to do so, and they sell the keys in the cash shop. There are also some very infrequent in-game rewards where you get a key, just to teach the players what the system is and how it works. The equivalent of giving everyone staying in your hotel free complementary poker chips to gamble away, just to get them hooked. The chests, when opened, always give you about ~75silver worth of raw materials, and some other little perks that are basically worthless. Also a very small chance at a very rare sword or something like that, which will exclusively only fall out of the Black Lion Chest, I think, and is account bound. I have not gotten any of those in the 5-6 Black Lion chests I have opened using keys I got for doing map completion.

But the Boosters are something you'll have to go to the cash shop on your own to buy and as far as I can tell, will not drop on you at random from the game and won't need to be unlocked with keys. Also, you'll be buying something that you already know what you're getting and then get an added extra thrown in on top. GW2 also sells things like armor and weapon skins, dyes (literally colors you can use in the avatar editor...) and so forth. If I wanted to, I could grind for gold, then use that to buy Gems to use in the cash shop, or you can pay real money for Gems, it's their "Stars" basically. These gems could, in theory, buy me everything in the store, BUT I've been playing for almost a year now and I haven't even come CLOSE to making enough gold to convert to gems to get everything they have. Luckily, I don't WANT everything either. Plus, I use gold to make other stuff I want, like gear. Long story short, if I didn't HATE NCSoft, I would have bought some costume stuff long ago for real money. As it is, I didn't and won't, but that's a personal spite thing.

What a great idea with getting a new character slot when you max level a character. I always wanted to get some kind of real reward when I hit 50 in CoH.

The financial model is something important for all the players all over the world (ok, i know you are seeing me coming xD)
What about having this news in other languages ?
What about the conversion in other money ? Is 15 $ will be 15€ or 15 £ or...

Doctor Tyche wrote:

The per-character vs global element. How many times did you groan over needing to grind the same content again to unlock a part for a new character? Recall, our aim is to encourage alting.

Honestly, never. I did the cape mission and aura mission, for example, with every character I made in our old city.

I guess I'll have to look at CoT like shareware, where there's no actual incentive for a patient consumer to purchase anything beyond the initial 'box', but if I want to give MWM some cash every now and then for something I enjoy playing it will be like a Patreon donation.

Assuming the booster costs X Stars, you could make it work such that if and when you would get a "special bonus" that you already have, you get 0.1*X Stars, which would essentially be a "rebate" if nothing else.

Personally I wish MWM the best of luck with the monetization they've decided to go with. I would personally like it if the cash shop offeres at least one thing that the players can always spend extra Stars on for a temporary effect of some kind. For example, ib GW2 they have food items that give you a stat buff for like 15 min to an hour of play time. Making such requires you to use up one of your two free crafting profession slots on Cooking instead of the armor and weapons you personally use, which means that you generally want to either have those skills on another toon or buy a third crafting profession slot for real money. Anyway, the food items require raw materials and so forth to make, and you have to grind on the cooking craft to even get to the point where you can make good stuff. If you could buy already-made food buffs from the cash shop, you could at least burn off excess Stars that way. As always, my stance on "Pay to Win" is "Ahhh, it'll be fine."

Now thats evil!

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Foradain wrote:

BTW, has anyone seen this update in their mailbox yet? I just checked all my filters (server side and client side)...

Yes. That's how I found out about it. I received the e-mail last night while I slept.

Arrived in my inbox while I was at work, about 2.5 hours after I asked. ^_^

Wow...

Lockboxes: never seen a system yet that I felt treated the players with respect.

Booster packs: I loved the CoH Freedom booster packs. Bought many of them with cash, bought many of them with veteran's rewards. Used the special ultra rare enhancements in the booster packs to fund my love of constant respects!

The one advantage to having a bunch of PvP players is they will spend any amount of ingame currency they can get their hands on to fit that one last piece they cannot live without. I would buy a booster pack, get an ultra rare widget, then sell it in the Auction House and buy three or four complete enhancement sets with the revenue. Which is probably why my Beast Mastery/Natural Affinity Mastermind was such a shock to the pair of heroes that tried to ambush her. For all I know, one of them bought the ultra-rare thingamajig that paid for her enhancement sets.

No mention yet of subscription plans... Will there be an annual plan? A lifetime plan?

On the booster bonus, is there a chance the bonus item would be more expensive?

desviper wrote:

Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)

There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.

I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

Lothic wrote:

desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

Character slots, closet space...no matter how much you have, it's never enough.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)
I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

No matter how many the database can handle you still might want to hardwire the max to some semi-reasonable large number.

Not only would it be less likely (from an engineering point of view) to fail due to too trying to maintain "too much critical data" per player but in all seriousness I don't think any single player really ought to have virtually "limitless" number of alts. I know I half-joked about people with too many alts needing counseling but, again seriously, if you have any regard for the general mental health of your players you really shouldn't allow them to have "too many" alts.

If anything else putting a cap on this might actually prevent some kind of unforeseen exploit a player might be able to figure out by having some semi-ridiculously huge number of alts on the system.

Geveo wrote:

Shadow Elusive wrote:
And the answer is six. You start with six slots.
Well, that's less than I would have hoped for, as I'm the kind of player who had multiple characters of different ATs in every level range.

We're not saying that maxing out a character is the *only* way to get more slots. The cash shop, vet rewards, and other things are possibilities, too.

Foradain wrote:

Six slots to start, and a new one for every level-capped character? I wonder how many I'll buy before I get a character to fifty... ^_^

Folks, please remember that at launch the level cap is [b]30[/b]. You might be cranking out capped characters faster than you expect.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

He says as he looks for [i]anything[/i] else to do that isn't maps... <_<

Nebroxah wrote:

I'm sure you're all keenly aware of how much we all hate to hear the phrase "pay to win." I really hope that cash shop items remain in the realm of cosmetic-only items, effects that are directly in-line with mechanics that can be accessed for free, or items that are really only for convenience.

P2W is a much bigger danger in gear-driven games, because it's the gear you're buying. So unless we start only offering the top-level enhancements/refinements/etc. in the cash shop and making everything bind-on-pickup, there shouldn't be much risk of P2W.

And besides, where's the fun in that?

SisterSilicon wrote:

The problem with a lifetime account is that it eventually becomes a drag on cash flow, which makes monthly operating costs more difficult to support. At $15/month, for example, a $299 lifetime sub stops providing steady income after 20 months.

It's worse than that: the cash flow stops immediately. Yes, it's 20 months before we would have gotten more, but it's still one big pile up front, and if you don't do careful accounting for that, you can fool yourself into thinking that you're going to have a lot more case flow than you will.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lothic wrote:

desviper wrote:

Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)

There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

Yes, please do. ^_^

Shadow Elusive wrote:

And the answer is six. You start with six slots.

Ow ! That's more than enought ! For who has not too much time to play ^^
But, gaining slots on each cap lvl 50 is a good idea so make the player stay longer on the game (at least if we have not to do always the same story ^^ again and again to level up a character. Fortunately, you said the mission system was done to put easily missions on game. And, there will be the mission creator isn't it ?)

I'm a little late here, but just want to say hooray for no lockboxes!

The second-most annoying thing in an MMO is having to watch those stupid "Bob "Robby" Roberton just won a blah-ditty-blah from a limited edition no-one-cares lockbox!" splash across the middle of your screen while you're trying to pay attention to an epic threat enemy. No lockboxes means no mandatory splash messages (that are only there so people know it's possible to win something non-shitty after their twentieth failed attempt).

Of course, the number one annoying thing is people advertising for in-game currency exchanged for real money by third-parties that constantly make new accounts. "Adjksoa shouts: 5$ = 50,000 gold at w e s u c k t o t a l l y .com! fast devilerlivery garntied fast noscamm" What's even worse is when they start pm'ing everyone on the server and no matter how many of them you ignore, more keep popping up, because they make a new account every ten seconds. Hopefully the mandatory startup cost will prevent that, too.

But even if the spammers find a way around that, I'm extremely glad to see the lockbox nonsense won't be happening here.

Lothic wrote:

desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

I think I had 80 toons in CoH. I'm an altoholic for sure :p

Sorry if I missed this in the article or the forum but with the Booster Pack Bonus Item will it be possible to get a duplicate of an item I already have? If so do I get nothing or do I get a Star value or something else?

stonejaguar wrote:

This is, in my opinion, the best information update MWM has given. Don't get me wrong, most of the other updates are cool and good info, especially the backgrounds. However, verification on how they will do subscriptions was important to me because I want a lifetime sub. And I will buy it the moment it goes on sale.

Even though I would most likely buy a lifetime sub myself I would strongly caution MWM against having one.

From a consumer perspective it is really good since you pay once and then have that bonus for the rest of the games lifetime.

From a business perspective it is actually really bad for the long run. You may get huge sums upfront but you have to take that into account and spread that revenue over a long period of time so as to not delude oneself. There is also the permanent reduction of revenue after the clump sum has been "spent" (when compared to monthly payments) due to the player still having all those bonuses, especially in regards to stipends of cash-shop currencies.

Concerning the lifetime subscription, it has already been addressed in the March / April Q&A Thread [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/115691#comment-115691]post 23[/url]

Doctor Tyche wrote:

For the record - no, we are not implementing a lifetime subscription. They were a gimmick used some years back, but yes, as you pointed out they seem to inevitably become.... less is the best word.

[b]Edit:[/b] But apparently someone that has control of the MWM KS account seems to think that lifetime subs are still under consideration in the comments >> "Lifetimes: We have several plans, but we're keeping it fluid until closer to launch". What is the official stance this month?

Doctor Tyche wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:

Sorry if I missed this in the article or the forum but with the Booster Pack Bonus Item will it be possible to get a duplicate of an item I already have? If so do I get nothing or do I get a Star value or something else?

They are not items, but unlocks. As such you cannot get a duplicate

Color me skeptical, but if the extra bonus random item is truly random, how can you ensure it will not be something we've already unlocked?

Klaleara wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
stonejaguar wrote:
This is, in my opinion, the best information update MWM has given. Don't get me wrong, most of the other updates are cool and good info, especially the backgrounds. However, verification on how they will do subscriptions was important to me because I want a lifetime sub. And I will buy it the moment it goes on sale.
Even though I would most likely buy a lifetime sub myself I would strongly caution MWM against having one.
From a consumer perspective it is really good since you pay once and then have that bonus for the rest of the games lifetime.
From a business perspective it is actually really bad for the long run. You may get huge sums upfront but you have to take that into account and spread that revenue over a long period of time so as to not delude oneself. There is also the permanent reduction of revenue after the clump sum has been "spent" (when compared to monthly payments) due to the player still having all those bonuses, especially in regards to stipends of cash-shop currencies.
Is there any game that has offered lifetime subscriptions still running?
I know STO did, but they were bought out though. Everything else I can think of that did is dead I believe.

Lord of the rings online is still running and had life time subs.

We will not be doing lifetime subs, that's the official word. They were tried, and were found not to work so well from the business end. We want to be fair to you guys...but also fair to us :)

ooglymoogly wrote:

An excellent, informative post - nicely done. One question - what is the picture? I can't lighten my screen enough to make out the details and don't have the wherewithal to play with the picture in an editor on this computer, but it looks vaguely like a robot/armor toon standing in line at a retailer that's closed for the evening.

It's a robot standing in line at a retailer that's closed for the evening.