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Discuss: What We Can Do - Powers

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Doctor Tyche
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I love seeing the feedback,

I love seeing the feedback, especially the concerns raised, because it allows us to know where to focus playtesting.

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I'm really enjoying the

I'm really enjoying the debate regarding multiple builds, and I have to admit it has made me pull back from a very "pro" position to more of an "on-the-fence" position. Ultimately I suppose it all comes down to how the secondary powers play out, and how the build-switching mechanic actually works. While I appreciate, and look forward to, a greater degree of freedom in character creation and power selection, there is also a need for a degree of "niche protection". This is definitely one of those things that will need to be looked at very closely during testing.

Scott Jackson
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Glad to hear! I never want

Glad to hear! I never want to sound actually doom-y with any of the successor projects, because I think our player-developer teams have strong inherent protection against the common post-release MMO troubles, as long as we don't get too demanding about the schedule. Thanks for hearing us out and combining that feedback with the dev team's internal debate - I don't see stacks of cash or an office building packed with developers, but together we form Voltron have a few million hours of gameplay experience...and we're not afraid to use it.

Side note, thanks for sharing those combat videos with the very-preliminary pet bear and the gravity control powers.

DeathSheepFromHell
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Starhammer wrote:
Starhammer wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Are the defense sets going to be strictly "this set is resist, this one is evade and this one is heal" Many didn't care for this back in CoH :p It also doesn't help with concepts. You know, like being agile and regenny at one time :p
Also, is the combat going to look less stiff in the finished product?
The power sets are all designed with a Play Style. For the Protection sets, yes younstsrt with "tough" sets taking damage, evasive sets for avoiding, and so on. And while there may be some sets which lean heavily on a simple mechanic, others will be diverse using multiple mechanics. In fact many of the more simple sets actually utilize several combined mechanics.
No two sets in the same within the same play style play the same, even if they use the same basic mechanics of say, resistance, there will be other mechanics involved which makes the sets distinct.
One thing I would really like to see Is some alternatives between *Tough* playstyles (and/or dodgy or healy) that allow players to account for their personal strengths and weaknesses. We've seen a lot of "action" in these type of games over the past many years, as they try to become more active games, yet some players (often like me) just don't have the reflexes of a college kid on a Starbuck's bender. I think having diverging vectors in power development to leverage or compensate for this would be interesting. Imagine that you're quick, and have excellent bandwidth, and can increase your evasion effectiveness by keeping the character moving... you suffer more glancing blows that would otherwise be direct hits, the enemy just misses outright because you aren't where they aimed originally, or for "tough" you're able to hunker down and block an incoming attack to take a lot less damage from it. On the other hand, a player who knows this active playstyle is their shortfall might be able to use the same points they could have put into enhancing their active defense effectiveness into a more passive defense adjustment that may not be as glorious or dynamic on each individual attack, but gets better mileage over the long run. Not to the point where the way to go is just macro-script-botting (because that's where the obvious accusation will aim for promoting such an idea), but to where people who are good at the more dynamic style, and people who aren't, can both contribute significantly in group content (unlike me in raids that are heavily dependent on timing mechanics, such as avoiding a fast growing circle, or firing off specific buffs at just the right second, where I usually just get kicked for being a sucky noob, if I bother trying to take part in the content at all).

At least up until the point that I departed, there was a firm commitment to having a variety of options which supported the "rooted" style of CoH, where "don't stand in the fire" was not a general-purpose mechanic requiring folks to dodge around willy-nilly at the same time as trying to do, well, anything else. I know this because I harassed and harped on it to make sure of that -- one of the primary draws to CoH that CO failed at, for some of the folks in my house, was precisely this.

Now, I obviously can't say anything about whether that commitment has continued, and it was never stated that there would not *also* be options that would benefit from a more "mobile" approach -- but the same could be said of CoH, especially for some of the scrapping or tanking variants. It also doesn't mean that "don't stand in the fire" can't show up as, say, "don't stand on the same side as the tank" since that ends up being more about coordination of the group as a whole and the tank being spatially aware enough to get the mob pointed away from everyone else. But that, again, was certainly in evidence in CoH and didn't seem to be too impossible for most folks to deal with.

Oddly enough, it seems to have actually biased my play style in CO, in that I generally don't try to move around much while attacking, so I don't "suffer" from the fact that certain powers root you while charging. I don't have enough coordination to move, target, *and* attack anyway, so no loss to me. :P The big difference ends up being whether it is *expected* that you can do all of those at once, in order to be effective, and that... well, I'll be honest, I don't know that anyone can realistically have much opinion about it until we get into non-trivial play-testing. Frankly, I suspect that a lot of what we've seen so far is going to end up needing to be adjusted pretty non-trivially at that point, not because I think there is anything wrong with it, but because there is simply no substitute for reality-checking your work.


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DeathSheepFromHell
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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Oh, and yes, swapping will have a cooldown timer and possibly take about thirty seconds or so (details to be tested in QA), so any buffs will wear off - or be discharged - and any idea of herding, swapping, and then nuking won't work - for one thing, you'll certainly have to be out of combat to do it. Theoretically, you could run out of a mission, change in a phone booth, and run back in to save the day when the team tank disconnects, but... who'd do a thing like that?

A handful of thoughts this raises:

  • From observation, 30s may not be long enough
  • CO appears to have an "escalating penalty" for flipping back and forth
  • For the love of $DEITY please do not make it a 10-20 minute timeout, that was the main thing that always frustrated me about it in CoH because I somehow *always* managed to be in the wrong one and nobody wants to wait around before they can have fun
  • A better answer, given that, would probably be a combination of "free swap" zones (no timeout) and a limited-but-doable timeout elsewhere
  • If you are still desperately afraid of abuses, allow missions to be flagged (*and marked up front!*) as "no build swaps permitted while in a mission map" (don't make it "while in an arc", that will cause all sorts of nightmares)

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meta brawler
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Great update guys. Thank you

Great update guys. Thank you for letting us get a glimpse of what is in store for us in the game. As for this whole debate about secondary switching and how it will affect the altist syndrome, here's my 2 cents.

I personally love this idea. I love the idea of being able to switch my secondary whenever I want as long as I am not in combat. I gives me added choice and flexibility to greatly increase my enjoyment of my main. I understand that some people don't like it and won't use it but, why am I forced to play the game the way they want me to? As mentioned in earlier posts in this thread there are many stated examples of heroes in comics that undergo changes in their powers. There is no reason not to include it in this game. If there are fears of powers overlapping because of cool down timers vs active dots or buffs, the simple fix is to cancel these effects of a specific powerset once it is switched out of and also implementing the non active combat switch. I'm a veteran mmo player and have raided in many games (WoW,SWTOR, Secret World, DCUO, COX, Wildstar, Neverwinter, etc.) and build switching is a very important mechanic to fill spots that are missing in teams/raids. Neverwinter is about to roll out their multi builds patch (behind a pay wall of course) and I couldn't be more excited. My Warlock will be an @## kicker and an off healer if it is needed or if I choose to. And that's the key. If I choose to. I do think that switching a build should not require additional gear for the power sets that are already filled. If I choose to want to spec into a third or fourth secondary powerset then sure I will be happy to grind new IOs for those.

I also don't think it will be a problem for grouping. I typically have several mains in each of the games I've played with a slew of alts. in COX I had over 30 character slots filled over 8 years of playtime. Build swapping won't cure my altitis in fact, quite the opposite. My head is already spinning with the amount of options and combos currently stated. I think the primary fear is that secondary powersets will outshine their primary counterparts and thus relegate the users of said primary sets to obscurity. The only time that this happened in my experience was in COX with my MA/Invuln scrapper (Meta Brawler) who had perma Invulnerability (tier 9 power) with only like a half second between recasts. This was in the very beginning of the game and devs quickly nerfed it. Which I agree was a good fix but even then my taunt was only single target and the max resist I could have was 75% vs a tank who could get 90% resist. Even with that I was not a suitable replacement for a main tank. I was however a really good offtank. This helped in situations where my tank would go down while fighting the Clockwork King in the SC TF. However, if I would have had the ability to switch to the DA set which offered psychic resistance it still would have been enough because of the resist cap on scrappers.

The only place I see a potential problem is with the COT equivalent of defenders and masterminds / controllers / corrupters with healing secondaries. The fix for this would be the healing cap placed on these secondaries. The goal is not to make them full on replacements but rather an off heal, off cc type build.

The other issue I've seen raised here is that build swapping will hurt the lower level grouping scene by eliminating/reducing the creation of alts. To be honest I really doubt that as long as they don't implement an AE type leveling system. I still say to this day that AE killed COX leveling, and this coming from someone who used it everyday for matts for my base and of course my portable workstation. Over time though, you will see less people in the lower level zones either because they want to focus more on their mains, have exhausted their character concepts, or simply are tired of repeating the same content over and over again. This is something that will happen organically in every game and not because of the ability to swap builds or secondary sets.

Thanks again Doc and the rest of the team for keeping the dream alive!

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On the subject of what to cal

On the subject of what to cal the power sets, I think more descriptive is better than less. Theoretically, you could give every power set an identity like it had in CoX (Fire Blast, Ice Blast, etc) and leave them named as such, with the graphics you'd probably expect as the default ones, and with the damage types you'd expect baked in. Then just let the players change the graphics and whatnot, but leave the underlying mechanics and so forth unchanged. I might want the immob and -movement that Ice Blast provides, but if I can switch the graphics to green energy looking blasts etc, I might still want to call myself "Radiation Dude". Or maybe I love how the Dark Blast graphics look when colored bright green and I don't particularly care what the mechanics are like, etc.

If you're going to allow people to shoot what looks like ice shards at targets and it's doing DoT, you can justify it as frostbite damage or something if you're the player, and you get your IceDude character, but with the mechanics you prefer, and the set is still called Burning. This makes it very hard to tell what someone does based on graphics, but I think that's the price you pay for aesthetic decoupling, if you want to have that.

Edit: What I'm saying is, I think you can name the sets after the prototypical example of what they might be and how they might look (Fire, Ice, Energy, etc), and use those as the default settings (like make Burning Blast a fire themed set in the default graphics up front) then let people change the graphics etc to suit their character design afterwards, but the set is still called Burning Blast, it just look like radiation or ice or electricity or whatever.

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Tannim222
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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

At least up until the point that I departed, there was a firm commitment to having a variety of options which supported the "rooted" style of CoH, where "don't stand in the fire" was not a general-purpose mechanic requiring folks to dodge around willy-nilly at the same time as trying to do, well, anything else. I know this because I harassed and harped on it to make sure of that -- one of the primary draws to CoH that CO failed at, for some of the folks in my house, was precisely this.
Now, I obviously can't say anything about whether that commitment has continued, and it was never stated that there would not *also* be options that would benefit from a more "mobile" approach -- but the same could be said of CoH, especially for some of the scrapping or tanking variants. It also doesn't mean that "don't stand in the fire" can't show up as, say, "don't stand on the same side as the tank" since that ends up being more about coordination of the group as a whole and the tank being spatially aware enough to get the mob pointed away from everyone else. But that, again, was certainly in evidence in CoH and didn't seem to be too impossible for most folks to deal with.
Oddly enough, it seems to have actually biased my play style in CO, in that I generally don't try to move around much while attacking, so I don't "suffer" from the fact that certain powers root you while charging. I don't have enough coordination to move, target, *and* attack anyway, so no loss to me. :P The big difference ends up being whether it is *expected* that you can do all of those at once, in order to be effective, and that... well, I'll be honest, I don't know that anyone can realistically have much opinion about it until we get into non-trivial play-testing. Frankly, I suspect that a lot of what we've seen so far is going to end up needing to be adjusted pretty non-trivially at that point, not because I think there is anything wrong with it, but because there is simply no substitute for reality-checking your work.

Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.

And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.


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That is good to hear Tannim.

That is good to hear Tannim. I am a fan of the more fast paced action type mmos these days. For me it keeps me on my toes and keeps me more invested into what is actually happening on screen and not standing in stupid. Unlike in COX where I didn't have to move at all and literally face tank everything. Hell, in COX I could set my taunt on auto keep all my toggles on and walk away from my pc and no one would know the difference. I am curious though to see how the hybrid tab/action version of your system plays out. There are several games that are doing this now, more recently Revolation Online. During my beta test of it, I found it to be adequate and a nice combination of the type types of systems. Hopefully you and the team can come up with a system as good if not better than theirs.

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nightchrome wrote:
nightchrome wrote:

Sounds to me like "Solid Form" is better described as "Natural Armor" in that your skin is super tough for some physical reason, such as stone or chitin or what-have-you.
Which would then make it quite clearly distinct from "Invulnerability" which would have you be impervious to harm for non-physical reasons.

Radiac wrote:

'Solid form' is just an unwieldy and ambiguous analogue for 'density'.

I didn't read if somebody else or a dev replied to you later on after the first 1,5 pages (still reading, but after all the peoples who're saying that I started to gather and reply), but imho at this point "Solid Form" implies that you change form... in that case your suggested names are totally worse, while Solid Form is perfect.

Invulnerability is a more passive-looking ability (in CoH was still made of active buffs of course, since it's a game and it needs active skills, but there is no shape-shifting), you're always resistant. Also Invulnerability may be a less powerful but jack-of-all trade (resistant to all but psionics, or all but magic etc.) while Solid-Form may be more specific (and stronger) against a specific kind of attack (Physical? Elemental?) and bad against the rest.

Therefore the Thing is not exactly "Solid Form", the Thing of the Fantastic Four is partially invulnerable, like Superboy/Superman (even if less).
Solid Form implies a "form" you temporarily change into. The Thing doesn't temporarily transform into an human during fights.
The perfect examples for both Stone Armor and Solid Form are Iceman and Colossus of the X-men. Iceman uses Ice-control to create an armor when he needs it (he doesn't sleep in that form, and the armor can be destroyed/removed even during fight).

Now I'll go back to read the remaining page and will find out if any devs confirmed it already or I'm wrong.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.

Hmmmm...I am having to dig deep and empty out my entire reserve of trust in MWM to avoid getting worried about this.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.

Well this update (and discussion cascade) is bringing all sorts of juicy info to the surface!

As someone who enjoyed the combat in CoH but also some aspects of Vindictus (all attacks avoidable, but no clutter from visible warnings of attacks - have to observe the behavior of the enemy), you have my attention. Personally, it sounds great, and is hopefully mild enough (or provides configurable options) for those who'd rather stick with the CoH model for preference, health, or latency reasons. Might be a good idea to describe where and how frequently a player is likely to encounter these avoidable attack mechanics (bosses only? Trials only? once every 5 seconds - 30 seconds - 15 minutes?) and some details around any configurability, before it becomes a source of justifiably-worried speculation.

Edit - too late! heh.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.
Hmmmm...I am having to dig deep and empty out my entire reserve of trust in MWM to avoid getting worried about this.

Ditto that. Maybe not my -entire- reserve, but twitch-gaming... I just want no part of it.

Tab-targeting, auto-facing... not having to WORRY about trying to joystick around after my target was one of the things that let CoH be fun to play, rather than a frustrating chore. I have a PS4 that I hardly touch because every game seems to require you to spend 90% of your effort just trying to face the right way. Not fun for this old gamer.

CoH I could feel like I was rewarded for thinking strategically, not for my keyboarding skills.

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Geveo wrote:
Geveo wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.
Hmmmm...I am having to dig deep and empty out my entire reserve of trust in MWM to avoid getting worried about this.
Ditto that. Maybe not my -entire- reserve, but twitch-gaming... I just want no part of it.
Tab-targeting, auto-facing... not having to WORRY about trying to joystick around after my target was one of the things that let CoH be fun to play, rather than a frustrating chore. I have a PS4 that I hardly touch because every game seems to require you to spend 90% of your effort just trying to face the right way. Not fun for this old gamer.
CoH I could feel like I was rewarded for thinking strategically, not for my keyboarding skills.

Like I said, still tab-target at fhe core, without being force-rooted at every attack (yes, there will be ways ro curb jousting combat). But not overly reliant on your common twitch mechanics. Just more mobility, which opens up the avoid the area stuff which CoH had, we can make a bit more use of it. Just a tad hybridized combat.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.

If that's become required... *sad trombone*

*I* can still play it, but I'll never be able to sell the primary CoX players in the household on it. Oh well, guess I got out while the getting was good.


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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
At least up until the point that I departed, there was a firm commitment to having a variety of options which supported the "rooted" style of CoH, where "don't stand in the fire" was not a general-purpose mechanic requiring folks to dodge around willy-nilly at the same time as trying to do, well, anything else. I know this because I harassed and harped on it to make sure of that -- one of the primary draws to CoH that CO failed at, for some of the folks in my house, was precisely this.
Now, I obviously can't say anything about whether that commitment has continued, and it was never stated that there would not *also* be options that would benefit from a more "mobile" approach -- but the same could be said of CoH, especially for some of the scrapping or tanking variants. It also doesn't mean that "don't stand in the fire" can't show up as, say, "don't stand on the same side as the tank" since that ends up being more about coordination of the group as a whole and the tank being spatially aware enough to get the mob pointed away from everyone else. But that, again, was certainly in evidence in CoH and didn't seem to be too impossible for most folks to deal with.
Oddly enough, it seems to have actually biased my play style in CO, in that I generally don't try to move around much while attacking, so I don't "suffer" from the fact that certain powers root you while charging. I don't have enough coordination to move, target, *and* attack anyway, so no loss to me. :P The big difference ends up being whether it is *expected* that you can do all of those at once, in order to be effective, and that... well, I'll be honest, I don't know that anyone can realistically have much opinion about it until we get into non-trivial play-testing. Frankly, I suspect that a lot of what we've seen so far is going to end up needing to be adjusted pretty non-trivially at that point, not because I think there is anything wrong with it, but because there is simply no substitute for reality-checking your work.
Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.
If that's become required... *sad trombone*
*I* can still play it, but I'll never be able to sell the primary CoX players in the household on it. Oh well, guess I got out while the getting was good.

I don't think it will be a hard sell. It is tan-targeting still. It just doesn't have enforced rooted on attacks and as a result, we can do more with avoid the area stuff. But no double-tab this to escape and such. And it won't be everywhere either. Of course, opponent npcs may be more mobile as well, so it can be a bit more fluid in certain cases, again with care, not everywhere.


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If it's more along the lines

If it's more along the lines of "CoH combat with a little bit of extra maneuverability", as you seem to be saying, then I can be okay with that - as long as the animations still look great and the game "feels" right.

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meta brawler wrote:
meta brawler wrote:

I love the idea of being able to switch my secondary whenever I want as long as I am not in combat. I gives me added choice and flexibility to greatly increase my enjoyment of my main. I understand that some people don't like it and won't use it but, why am I forced to play the game the way they want me to? As mentioned in earlier posts in this thread there are many stated examples of heroes in comics that undergo changes in their powers. There is no reason not to include it in this game. I'm a veteran mmo player and have raided in many games (WoW,SWTOR, Secret World, DCUO, COX, Wildstar, Neverwinter, etc.) and build switching is a very important mechanic to fill spots that are missing in teams/raids. I do think that switching a build should not require additional gear for the power sets that are already filled. If I choose to want to spec into a third or fourth secondary powerset then sure I will be happy to grind new IOs for those.

I am curious to hear what flexibilities gained through swapping secondary powersets will make you enjoy your main more and why it would make you enjoy your experience more.

Consider an alternate reality where MWM didn't announce that they would allow Secondary Swapping. Would you be disappointed that it wasn't available? Would you express your displeasure in the narrow sightedness of MWM's design?

On a player by player basis the Secondary Swapping capability might be good (if they choose to use it or not). But also consider how it impacts the entire player base. The adage that an individual is smart but a group is stupid can be applied here. You can control your actions, but you cannot control the actions of a group. We cannot control how the player base uses (or abuses) Secondary Swapping. I am confident that MWM will implement Secondary Swapping so that it does not abuse game mechanics (the aforementioned DoTs or status effects or whatever on a mob). I am concerned about how social engineering will leverage the usage of Secondary Swapping. Will people pressure you into swapping builds to make an encounter "easier" or to fit some dungeon guide's suggested role setups? The path of least resistance is more often than not the most commonly chosen course of action. Under that scenario, are people making a heroic/villainous transformation that conforms to their lore and story arc in the grand comic book tradition or are they bowing to peer pressure to just win?

The examples of the other popular MMOs typically employ the Holy Trinity™ approach to roles for encounters. One or two tanks, a handful of healers and the rest a mix of ranged & melee dps. COX allowed that approach to their encounters and it worked fairly well. It also allowed for non standard group compositions to tackle encounters sideways and it was possible to beat it. Why do we need to reinforce the Holy Trinity™ approach in CoT? "why am I forced to play the game the way they want me to?"

Why should a separate build not require separate IOs? There is the potential that you could greatly diminish (or increase) the slotting of your primary or skimp on travel/tertiary/whatever powers when you build swap. What is your threshold for not requiring separate IOs? Not touching the primary/tertiary/whatever set? Not changing the number of slots in a power? I am not trying to argue against it, but the idea needs to be fleshed out, especially if you want Dev to adopt it.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

If it's more along the lines of "CoH combat with a little bit of extra maneuverability", as you seem to be saying, then I can be okay with that - as long as the animations still look great and the game "feels" right.

Aye, I can agree with this. We won't really know till we try it for ourselves, I guess.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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A moment for the giving dev's

A moment for the giving dev's props for helping us all smooth and sort these things, as we all understand and move to the future of what is in store! :o

Have a nice day!

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm surprised no one has jumped all over the following bit buried in the announcement:
Quote:
When you choose a weapon or prop as your attack focus, the animations for that prop become available for your powers. And yes, that includes Magic Princess Wand Action.
Isn't any one else concerned we're going to be overrun with people playing City of Sailor Moons? ;)

Well, I may try a tongue-in-cheek take off of the Magical Girl type based on a character that I made in a now defunct text role playing forum, Cutie Angel.

Cutie Angel's appearance: Take the cutest Magical Girl you have ever seen a picture of. Now square that. Now square the result. You are starting to get warm ...

;)

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Hi,

Hi,

1&2) First and foremost keep in mind that the devs have already said this is optional and up to the player. You do not have to change or use this at all. You can stay in your original setup for as long as you play. Additionally, they have said that your main powerset is your job. So tanks will always be tanks, dps and heals will always be heals. Changing your secondary will not change your job. Just how you approach your job. The secondary powerset swap is a very novel idea in my opinion and it does offer flexibility in build variation and encounter approach especially when soloing. I like my characters to be varied and have the power to choose the tools they use to get the job done. If your character's RP does not call for a secondary swap, don't use it. But just cause you don't find it useful or that it fits in your theme, doesn't mean that others wont. Alternate reality considered, whether they choose to implement it or not is up to them. It wont affect my decision to play the game or not. I just think that its a cool idea and another new mechanic to distinguish itself from the competition. Kudos to the devs form coming up with it.

3) I definitely agree on having controls on when one can swap. I don't think you should be able to swap in combat or when you have aggro. You should not be able to benefit from buffs or effects from different secondary sets. However, I don't agree on having to go to a specific place to be able to swap nor should there be a lengthy timer for it either. In every mmo I have played there are always meta builds. And there are always groups of people who live and die by them and only use and invite people to group who use these builds. You can choose to follow them and allow them to tell you what to do or not. That's more of a toxic community issue. Most of the people who are going to play this game are coming from COX and in my experience, was the best community in any game I have ever played. Always helpful and willing to team up and run content on a regular basis. I don't know if you are a vet like me or are new to this community and you may be looking at this through the eyes of someone who came from a toxic community like WoW. But I highly doubt that people are going to bully you into using certain secondaries just to make them happy. You can always become a leader in the community and form your own groups to run the content you want to do. As a group leader you set the rules and invite who ever you want and lead by example. When I lead and form groups I always tell people to bring who they want to play with. You can do the same. i don't worry about what others think or do.

4) True, CoX did allow for sideways approaches for the low to medium tier content. But for the higher end stuff like TFs and Incarnate Trials you absolutely needed a tank. And you needed dps and healers to keep them all alive. Controllers where there to keep mobs in check and buff/debuff. The holy trinity works for high tier group content. Even in games like The Secret World where every character can be everything, during a raid each person has to spec into a job or things wont get done. The secondary powerset swap wont change this it only adds more choice so that you can play the game the way you want to play. That's the whole point. Now if you are advocating for the complete removal of the trinity +1, that's another story and not relevant to what we are talking about.

5) Simple, if I have unlocked certain powers in a powerset and slotted them with IOs, their augments should stay slotted even if I don't have that specific power selected in a separate build. The same goes for any secondary sets that I unlock as I progress through the game. Powers that I unlock (assuming that power selection is like in CoX where you cannot select all of the powers in a given set) and slot with IOs should stay slotted. They way I see it working in my mind is that your primary powerset and any secondary sets you unlock become part of your character sheet with their own augment slots. At max level you only get a certain number secondary active powerset augment slots. The builds would simply be a matter of choosing the active powers you want for your primary and secondary sets with the limitation of only having one secondary powerset active at a time. If I remember correctly my main in CoX had multiple builds (PVE and PVP) that used the same IO sets.

The truth is that I will have character concepts that will stay static and others that will be dynamic with regards to their secondary sets. I just finished watching Legion on FX and I'm dying to make him in COT. A character that has multiple powers tied to multiple different personalities. The secondary powerset swap mechanic will enable me to bring him to life. Bottom line, its all about choice and the individual experience. How I play my game should not matter to you, nor how you play your game will not matter to me. If you are worried about your perceived negative aspects of social engineering this may cause, the answer is not to kill creativity and build variation. Step up and be a Hero! Bring people together of all varying playstyles and help build a positive community free from exclusions and elitism.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

The examples of the other popular MMOs typically employ the Holy Trinity™ approach to roles for encounters. One or two tanks, a handful of healers and the rest a mix of ranged & melee dps. COX allowed that approach to their encounters and it worked fairly well. It also allowed for non standard group compositions to tackle encounters sideways and it was possible to beat it. Why do we need to reinforce the Holy Trinity™ approach in CoT? "why am I forced to play the game the way they want me to?"

Dude, you're over thinking it. The Holy Trinity is entrenched in MMO players minds and it becomes the fallback when they encounter something different. It took over a year before the larger player mass of CoH understood that Tanker, healer, dpser was not the only way to do things and right up until the doors shut people were still trying to enforce their idea of optimal team make-up and specific tactics on tougher trials. That is just the nature of co-operative game play. Also, keep in mind that just because there was flexibility for team make-up in CoH, most tactics still relied on a Holy Trinity concept, you just didn't need the very best in those roles to succeed.

The same growing pains that CoH had in its flexible playstyle options will happen in CoT with it's greater flexible playstyle options. Once that is over people will begin to experiment and learn more and that kind of stuff will not be as common.

You are also contradicting yourself here. Before you were saying that people will choose the classes with the most flexible secondaries. Now you are saying that people will require you to have optimal builds for teaming. Secondaries are not as powerful as primaries so if people start cherry picking team mates they will want the stronger not the weaker.

Planet10 wrote:

I am curious to hear what flexibilities gained through swapping secondary powersets will make you enjoy your main more and why it would make you enjoy your experience more.

Consider an alternate reality where MWM didn't announce that they would allow Secondary Swapping. Would you be disappointed that it wasn't available? Would you express your displeasure in the narrow sightedness of MWM's design?

Some classes or power sets can be a bore or a chore to play solo but are a lot of fun on teams and vice versa. Having an option to adjust my build not just for specific content but for what activity I am engaging in is a welcome option.
Allowing me to test out alternate power sets as secondaries will help me decide what alt I may want to play next.
When I get bored of a particular power set or class subsection I can swap it out and make that character fresh again.
Sometimes when I make a character I find that it doesn't play the way I want it to after devoting a large amount of time into it which is frustrating on its own but if it happens too often I lose interest in playing that game entirely. This allows me to fix my initial mistake without feeling like I have wasted my time.
Some games have mini-games or alternate activities that work different than the main game. In many cases what you find fun about a character in the main game is not fun or just plain annoying in mini-games.Being able to swap out things will help with that a lot.
There are times when I want to challenge myself and times when I don't. Swapping will let adjust my character accordingly.
Seriously man, not every player thinks with min/max blinders on. Especially in a game that puts so much emphasis on character individuality.

And no I wouldn't think the game is lacking if they never put it in and I didn't know about it. But that is a very leading question that begs the answer to consider whether this feature is a requirement or not instead of as a bonus. It's not a required feature but I am happy they did put it in. I consider it a bonus.

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Looks pretty nice, two

Looks pretty nice, two questions if I could get any word on them though. Is that map shown in the video the actual map you guys have been developing for the game itself, and how close are we to something testable like a character creator or beta of some sort?

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Things have changed a bit there DSFH. Combat itself will be more movile without relying on hard-rooting for attacks except unless absolutely necessary.
And there may be more ability to avoid area attacks if so desired. Combat will still be tab-targeting its core, but is going with a more hybridized tab-action style. The market has largely changed in the past several years and while we want to remain true to our base of fans, we have to be a little more flexible in order to appeal to the current and upcoming generation of players. Nothing too overboard, but just enough.

I'm surprised this caught people's attention the way that it did. There was a fairly extensive thread about it previously.

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Noyjitat]warcabbit wrote:
Noyjitat wrote:

warcabbit wrote:
.
Our motto has always been 'The endgame is alting', and we've been working really hard on making it easy to make sure your third or tenth time through is as fun as your first. (Nothing's as fun as the first time, but we're trying.)

Noyjitat wrote:

Not that's it's expected on day one or anything but I hope alting isn't all you have planned for endgame. I loved city of heroes but after leveling several characters to 50 and nothing to do with them beyond the task forces I had already completed thousands of times I was getting pretty bored until incarnate trials were added. You need reasons to play those characters after max level besides socializing for a few missions. Multi group content and large scale trials and raids is fun; especially with how rewarding it was in cox. Going rogue and beyond would have been a colossal failure without it as a game without goals for your characters doesn't last.

I agree with Noy here.

Alting should be "a major part" of endgame, but not ONLY alting as the oft-quoted motto "the endgame IS alting" seems to indicate. I'm happy that alting is a huge consideration and I'm sure the "endgame IS alting" motto shouldn't be taken overly literally--but the quote itself is quite unequivocal.

Personally, for me, I never had more than a handful of alts. For me, endgame was more about refining my high-end build, my look, my story, and then exploring/playing with that story in mind.

"Stuff to see and do" is probably going to be more important to me than it will be for someone with 50 alts.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

If it's more along the lines of "CoH combat with a little bit of extra maneuverability", as you seem to be saying, then I can be okay with that - as long as the animations still look great and the game "feels" right.

That's the way I see it. As Tannim points out, it's still tab-targeting at heart. Most "action" MMOs are similar to FPS games in that they require you to point a reticle in at least vaguely the correct direction. With tab-targeting whether you hit or miss is still determined by the dice behind the curtain (and even with a 98.5% accuracy I still miss half the time, amirite?!). Naturally the same will be true for the enemies, so moving won't make anyone or anything more difficult to hit. I'd expect that if I attack and hit that the attack will land even if the target has moved 10 meters by the time it goes off. I.e. You won't need to move unless you want to avoid a placed (AoE) attack (and you'll still be able to attack while moving).

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

With tab-targeting whether you hit or miss is still determined by the dice behind the curtain (and even with a 98.5% accuracy I still miss half the time, amirite?!). Naturally the same will be true for the enemies, so moving won't make anyone or anything more difficult to hit. I'd expect that if I attack and hit that the attack will land even if the target has moved 10 meters by the time it goes off. I.e. You won't need to move unless you want to avoid a placed (AoE) attack (and you'll still be able to attack while moving).

Very good point -- I need to keep that in mind. Thanks.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Noyjitat wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
.
Our motto has always been 'The endgame is alting', and we've been working really hard on making it easy to make sure your third or tenth time through is as fun as your first. (Nothing's as fun as the first time, but we're trying.)
Noyjitat wrote:
Not that's it's expected on day one or anything but I hope alting isn't all you have planned for endgame. I loved city of heroes but after leveling several characters to 50 and nothing to do with them beyond the task forces I had already completed thousands of times I was getting pretty bored until incarnate trials were added. You need reasons to play those characters after max level besides socializing for a few missions. Multi group content and large scale trials and raids is fun; especially with how rewarding it was in cox. Going rogue and beyond would have been a colossal failure without it as a game without goals for your characters doesn't last.
I agree with Noy here.
Alting should be "a major part" of endgame, but not ONLY alting as the oft-quoted motto "the endgame IS alting" seems to indicate. I'm happy that alting is a huge consideration and I'm sure the "endgame IS alting" motto shouldn't be taken overly literally--but the quote itself is quite unequivocal.
Personally, for me, I never had more than a handful of alts. For me, endgame was more about refining my high-end build, my look, my story, and then exploring/playing with that story in mind.
"Stuff to see and do" is probably going to be more important to me than it will be for someone with 50 alts.

I feel similarly. One of the primary reasons I had alts was because I was literally done with my current main (or mains) in regards to finishing his/her soft-capped, perma-Hasten build and doing all the high-end content ad nauseam until they were T4-ed to the hilt. I'm a realist in the sense that content will always be completed by the playerbase faster than it can be generated by the devs, so I'm not saying I need to have new stuff nowNowNOW, but alts don't necessarily scratch that new content itch for me as much as a new storyarc or zone unless it's a brand new powerset. And even then, depending on what flavor it is, I may not even like it that much or maybe not even enough to stick with it. Do I think there needs to be high-end raiding at launch? Not really, but I would like to see it within a reasonable amount of time afterwards. What defines 'reasonable'? Six months? A year? I'd like to think less than a year, but I try to ground my expectations with the knowledge that MWM isn't a typical development studio with a wide scope of full-time employees working around the clock to churn out content widgets. And that's not a bad thing, nor am I inferring otherwise, because I feel the passion of their involvement in the game's development more than makes up for anything else. I've always been a proponent of quality over quantity, so I'm willing to wait for end-game content that hopefully isn't all alting, but I do have limits to my patience.

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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

Looks pretty nice, two questions if I could get any word on them though. Is that map shown in the video the actual map you guys have been developing for the game itself, and how close are we to something testable like a character creator or beta of some sort?

Properly, it's a test area. We wanted to see how some new assets looked, so built it to showcase them. We've done this several times in the past. As for the chargen, I can only say Soon

Technical Director

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Noyjitat wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
.
Our motto has always been 'The endgame is alting', and we've been working really hard on making it easy to make sure your third or tenth time through is as fun as your first. (Nothing's as fun as the first time, but we're trying.)
Noyjitat wrote:
Not that's it's expected on day one or anything but I hope alting isn't all you have planned for endgame. I loved city of heroes but after leveling several characters to 50 and nothing to do with them beyond the task forces I had already completed thousands of times I was getting pretty bored until incarnate trials were added. You need reasons to play those characters after max level besides socializing for a few missions. Multi group content and large scale trials and raids is fun; especially with how rewarding it was in cox. Going rogue and beyond would have been a colossal failure without it as a game without goals for your characters doesn't last.
I agree with Noy here.
Alting should be "a major part" of endgame, but not ONLY alting as the oft-quoted motto "the endgame IS alting" seems to indicate. I'm happy that alting is a huge consideration and I'm sure the "endgame IS alting" motto shouldn't be taken overly literally--but the quote itself is quite unequivocal.
Personally, for me, I never had more than a handful of alts. For me, endgame was more about refining my high-end build, my look, my story, and then exploring/playing with that story in mind.
"Stuff to see and do" is probably going to be more important to me than it will be for someone with 50 alts.
I feel similarly. One of the primary reasons I had alts was because I was literally done with my current main (or mains) in regards to finishing his/her soft-capped, perma-Hasten build and doing all the high-end content ad nauseam until they were T4-ed to the hilt. I'm a realist in the sense that content will always be completed by the playerbase faster than it can be generated by the devs, so I'm not saying I need to have new stuff nowNowNOW, but alts don't necessarily scratch that new content itch for me as much as a new storyarc or zone unless it's a brand new powerset. And even then, depending on what flavor it is, I may not even like it that much or maybe not even enough to stick with it. Do I think there needs to be high-end raiding at launch? Not really, but I would like to see it within a reasonable amount of time afterwards. What defines 'reasonable'? Six months? A year? I'd like to think less than a year, but I try to ground my expectations with the knowledge that MWM isn't a typical development studio with a wide scope of full-time employees working around the clock to churn out content widgets. And that's not a bad thing, nor am I inferring otherwise, because I feel the passion of their involvement in the game's development more than makes up for anything else. I've always been a proponent of quality over quantity, so I'm willing to wait for end-game content that hopefully isn't all alting, but I do have limits to my patience.

Raids will be discussed in an upcoming update.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Noyjitat wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
.
Our motto has always been 'The endgame is alting', and we've been working really hard on making it easy to make sure your third or tenth time through is as fun as your first. (Nothing's as fun as the first time, but we're trying.)
Noyjitat wrote:
Not that's it's expected on day one or anything but I hope alting isn't all you have planned for endgame. I loved city of heroes but after leveling several characters to 50 and nothing to do with them beyond the task forces I had already completed thousands of times I was getting pretty bored until incarnate trials were added. You need reasons to play those characters after max level besides socializing for a few missions. Multi group content and large scale trials and raids is fun; especially with how rewarding it was in cox. Going rogue and beyond would have been a colossal failure without it as a game without goals for your characters doesn't last.
I agree with Noy here.
Alting should be "a major part" of endgame, but not ONLY alting as the oft-quoted motto "the endgame IS alting" seems to indicate. I'm happy that alting is a huge consideration and I'm sure the "endgame IS alting" motto shouldn't be taken overly literally--but the quote itself is quite unequivocal.
Personally, for me, I never had more than a handful of alts. For me, endgame was more about refining my high-end build, my look, my story, and then exploring/playing with that story in mind.
"Stuff to see and do" is probably going to be more important to me than it will be for someone with 50 alts.
I feel similarly. One of the primary reasons I had alts was because I was literally done with my current main (or mains) in regards to finishing his/her soft-capped, perma-Hasten build and doing all the high-end content ad nauseam until they were T4-ed to the hilt. I'm a realist in the sense that content will always be completed by the playerbase faster than it can be generated by the devs, so I'm not saying I need to have new stuff nowNowNOW, but alts don't necessarily scratch that new content itch for me as much as a new storyarc or zone unless it's a brand new powerset. And even then, depending on what flavor it is, I may not even like it that much or maybe not even enough to stick with it. Do I think there needs to be high-end raiding at launch? Not really, but I would like to see it within a reasonable amount of time afterwards. What defines 'reasonable'? Six months? A year? I'd like to think less than a year, but I try to ground my expectations with the knowledge that MWM isn't a typical development studio with a wide scope of full-time employees working around the clock to churn out content widgets. And that's not a bad thing, nor am I inferring otherwise, because I feel the passion of their involvement in the game's development more than makes up for anything else. I've always been a proponent of quality over quantity, so I'm willing to wait for end-game content that hopefully isn't all alting, but I do have limits to my patience.
Raids will be discussed in an upcoming update.

Looks like the Doctor is 'In' this morning. Maybe even the Good Doctor...
'The Good Doctor' by The Protomen (one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands):

Also; yay for raid(s!) discussion!

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Looks like the Doctor is 'In' this morning. Maybe even the Good Doctor...
'The Good Doctor' by The Protomen (one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands):

HA! How do you know the Protomen? They're kind of regional and obscure. I've seen 'em live twice! They're a blast to see live. Go music theater nerds!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Looks like the Doctor is 'In' this morning. Maybe even the Good Doctor...
'The Good Doctor' by The Protomen (one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands):
HA! How do you know the Protomen? They're kind of regional and obscure. I've seen 'em live twice! They're a blast to see live. Go music theater nerds!

Music about the story of THE quintessential blue blaster? How could I not know about them? XD
I heard about them after their first album came out on some internet radio I was listening to while playing CoX. Pretty much been a huge fan since, and I tune in when I can if they're playing at a 'con where the venue stream the events. I saw'em live in Cinci a few years ago, rocking my blue (of course) The Man t-shirt that had Megaman's face on it and my Protomen hoodie. I don't care what people quote from the movie PCU about being that guy that goes to the concert wearing a shirt of one of the bands playing. They were even more amazing live than as I had seen them streamed. I was surprised how many people turned out to see them, and I even saw two people dressed up as Dr. Wiley and Dr. Light.
I know they've caught some flack about producing and releasing basically what were two cover albums, but I love me some covers, so they're still near and dear in my heart. I do look forward to Act III, all the same.

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Nothing wrong with rocking

Nothing wrong with rocking some covers. I'll never forget "Total Eclipse of the Heart" live by them. The show ended when the fat guy sang... "turn around bright eyes" in high falsetto in silver and black face paint.

And now we'll return to your regularly scheduled thread. Sorry for the hijack :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Fine, let's get a musical

Fine, let's get a musical number out of the way....

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Okay, okay. Endgame comments:

Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids, like Wildstar, where only the hardest of the hardcore go through the whole thing and it takes hours and hours.

At launch, we intend to have endgame raids - we call them social raids, and they're more like classic Hamidon than anything else.

Classic raiding will show up afterwards, and you can do that - we want to make sure we have plenty of 'how people actually minmax' experience down before we set any of those in stone.

But we have other endgame systems planned - stuff that you can do socially, that has effects en masse.

But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.

Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.

Sound good?

Project Lead

Cobalt Azurean
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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids, like Wildstar, where only the hardest of the hardcore go through the whole thing and it takes hours and hours.
At launch, we intend to have endgame raids - we call them social raids, and they're more like classic Hamidon than anything else.
Classic raiding will show up afterwards, and you can do that - we want to make sure we have plenty of 'how people actually minmax' experience down before we set any of those in stone.
But we have other endgame systems planned - stuff that you can do socially, that has effects en masse.
But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.
Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.
Sound good?

This post delivers.

As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.

dell56v
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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids, like Wildstar, where only the hardest of the hardcore go through the whole thing and it takes hours and hours.
At launch, we intend to have endgame raids - we call them social raids, and they're more like classic Hamidon than anything else.
Classic raiding will show up afterwards, and you can do that - we want to make sure we have plenty of 'how people actually minmax' experience down before we set any of those in stone.
But we have other endgame systems planned - stuff that you can do socially, that has effects en masse.
But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.
Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.
Sound good?

I am 100% okay with this. Heck I would play the CoH style combat any day (as long as it is CoH/V) it was simple but more importantly FUN.

Have a nice day!

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids, like Wildstar, where only the hardest of the hardcore go through the whole thing and it takes hours and hours.
At launch, we intend to have endgame raids - we call them social raids, and they're more like classic Hamidon than anything else.
Classic raiding will show up afterwards, and you can do that - we want to make sure we have plenty of 'how people actually minmax' experience down before we set any of those in stone.
But we have other endgame systems planned - stuff that you can do socially, that has effects en masse.
But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.
Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.
Sound good?

I am 100% okay with this. Heck I would play the CoH style combat any day (as long as it is CoH/V) it was simple but more importantly FUN.

Have a nice day!

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

warcabbit wrote:
Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids, like Wildstar, where only the hardest of the hardcore go through the whole thing and it takes hours and hours.
At launch, we intend to have endgame raids - we call them social raids, and they're more like classic Hamidon than anything else.
Classic raiding will show up afterwards, and you can do that - we want to make sure we have plenty of 'how people actually minmax' experience down before we set any of those in stone.
But we have other endgame systems planned - stuff that you can do socially, that has effects en masse.
But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.
Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.
Sound good?
This post delivers.
As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.

Already have instancing planned for this.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

dell56v
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I cant recall if an alpha or

I cant recall if an alpha or beta was planned for this late year if we're lucky does that mean the creator is coming out before then? I just being an assuming knucklehead.

Have a nice day!

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dell56v wrote:
dell56v wrote:

I cant recall if an alpha or beta was planned for this late year if we're lucky does that mean the creator is coming out before then? I just being an assuming knucklehead.

As soon as it's ready, it goes into your hands.

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Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Figured :D you guys seem to

Figured :D you guys seem to be taking your time, making sure first impressions (even for an alpha/beta) is nice enough than say Valiance where you go into a raw unkempt 'world' where you can look at the water and crash (when it first started)

Have a nice day!

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It sounds like I won't need

It sounds like I won't need to make more than 6 characters (one for each AT) to experience everything, since I won't have to make several new characters to mess around with different combinations, and of course go through the process of leveling them. If I read it correctly, I won't be able to change my Primary, but my Secondary and Tertiary can be changed.

So one question: when choosing your "prop", is that permanent choice?

dell56v
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Volron wrote:
Volron wrote:

It sounds like I won't need to make more than 6 characters (one for each AT) to experience everything, since I won't have to make several new characters to mess around with different combinations, and of course go through the process of leveling them. If I read it correctly, I won't be able to change my Primary, but my Secondary and Tertiary can be changed.
So one question: when choosing your "prop", is that permanent choice?

If I'm not mistaken props are costumes, not perm. Its just a way to show a theme to your power. Like in CoH shooting from different guns for AR blasters, with diff costume slots.

Have a nice day!

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Volron wrote:
Volron wrote:

It sounds like I won't need to make more than 6 characters (one for each AT) to experience everything, since I won't have to make several new characters to mess around with different combinations, and of course go through the process of leveling them. If I read it correctly, I won't be able to change my Primary, but my Secondary and Tertiary can be changed.

No 6 won't encompass all combinations. Besides the fact that a class could have more than one primary power set options, new classes are planned for later.

Doctor Tyche
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As even the same primary has

As even the same primary has 5 different set choices, and sub-choices within that set (spoilers), there is still plenty of room for alting.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Sound good?

Si. Is good.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Volron
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Ah, okay. I think I

Ah, okay. I think I understand how this is going to work.

Primary: Brawn Enforcer
Secondary: Gladiator
Tertiary: Equivalent to Ancillary/Patron and/or Fitness (wonder how many remember having to choose Fitness :)) powers in CoH?

Scared myself a little. :( Now I understand a little better. :)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

As even the same primary has 5 different set choices, and sub-choices within that set (spoilers), there is still plenty of room for alting.

And that's just for launch. Over time, more sets and ATs will release, opening up even more combinations.


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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids, like Wildstar, where only the hardest of the hardcore go through the whole thing and it takes hours and hours.
At launch, we intend to have endgame raids - we call them social raids, and they're more like classic Hamidon than anything else.
Classic raiding will show up afterwards, and you can do that - we want to make sure we have plenty of 'how people actually minmax' experience down before we set any of those in stone.
But we have other endgame systems planned - stuff that you can do socially, that has effects en masse.
But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.
Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.
Sound good?
This post delivers.
As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.
Already have instancing planned for this.

Right on. Thank you, sir/ma'am. You are indeed the Good Doctor.

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Volron wrote:
Volron wrote:

It sounds like I won't need to make more than 6 characters (one for each AT) to experience everything, since I won't have to make several new characters to mess around with different combinations, and of course go through the process of leveling them. If I read it correctly, I won't be able to change my Primary, but my Secondary and Tertiary can be changed.

Only to a little less degree than how you only "needed" 1 character per AT in CoH to experience everything. Primaries will still be a significant part of the experience so you still may have to make more than one character per AT, especially considering that MWM has much more incentive to make every power set (at least on a theme basis) feel distinct.

Quote:

So one question: when choosing your "prop", is that permanent choice?

Props is part of the costume and can be changed with almost no restrictions.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.

QFT

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

As even the same primary has 5 different set choices, and sub-choices within that set (spoilers), there is still plenty of room for alting.

One quick question about build swapping:
Within your primary, will you be able to change your powerset? As a Stalwart, will I be able to change from Invulnerability to Grit?

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
As even the same primary has 5 different set choices, and sub-choices within that set (spoilers), there is still plenty of room for alting.
One quick question about build swapping:
Within your primary, will you be able to change your powerset? As a Stalwart, will I be able to change from Invulnerability to Grit?

No

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.
Already have instancing planned for this.

I played CoX for the first three years and I remember all Hamidon raids as being problematic. Zone populations, lag, griefing, leechers, etc. It was always a pain in the butt just to get people organized and semi-coordinated enough to actually defeat it. Then you had to contend with people acting against your efforts.

This time around with CoT the game world will venture into a more gray area (in terms of character alignments). Villains & Heroes will live in the same game space. The game world will operate differently too (no War Walls). Playing devil's advocate, how then with instanced world content and the possibility of characters wanting to compete for the kill (or to prevent it) be serviced in this game?

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.
Already have instancing planned for this.
I played CoX for the first three years and I remember all Hamidon raids as being problematic. Zone populations, lag, griefing, leechers, etc. It was always a pain in the butt just to get people organized and semi-coordinated enough to actually defeat it. Then you had to contend with people acting against your efforts.
This time around with CoT the game world will venture into a more gray area (in terms of character alignments). Villains & Heroes will live in the same game space. The game world will operate differently too (no War Walls). Playing devil's advocate, how then with instanced world content and the possibility of characters wanting to compete for the kill (or to prevent it) be serviced in this game?

We can segment the map to have different instances based on multiple factors, such as popluation in an area, events, pvp, etc.


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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Sound good?

Yes, and thank you. I especially like the heart comment. That fits my approach perfectly: I'll do raid-type stuff on occasion for variety, but for me an MMO is primarily about the levelling experience.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Planet10 wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
As for 'social raids' ala 'Hamidon-style', I enjoy the concept of this idea but not so much the practice or the implementation if done exactly in the same manner as the Hamidon spawn. After dealing with literally years of drama revolving around it, I would like to offer a simple suggestion: make the raid instanced. There were too many times when moochers/leechers would take up spots and not contribute to the success of the raid in any capacity and get free sh*t or griefers even actively try to have the raid fail. At least if it was instanced, there would be a measure of control in regards to dealing with them (e.g. removing them from the instance). Additionally, it shouldn't be locked until server reset if it fails. Furthermore, if, for example, some SG tries to secretly (being on /hide and /ghide) raid two hours before the community scheduled raid (literally the same day and time for months) and f*ck everyone over. Not that I'm resentful or bitter or anything. I would just like to voice my concerns and have input in being able to head off the aforementioned and even potentially unseen problems in advance.
Already have instancing planned for this.
I played CoX for the first three years and I remember all Hamidon raids as being problematic. Zone populations, lag, griefing, leechers, etc. It was always a pain in the butt just to get people organized and semi-coordinated enough to actually defeat it. Then you had to contend with people acting against your efforts.
This time around with CoT the game world will venture into a more gray area (in terms of character alignments). Villains & Heroes will live in the same game space. The game world will operate differently too (no War Walls). Playing devil's advocate, how then with instanced world content and the possibility of characters wanting to compete for the kill (or to prevent it) be serviced in this game?
We can segment the map to have different instances based on multiple factors, such as popluation in an area, events, pvp, etc.

@Planet10, I see you mentioned you played in the first three years of the game, which didn't consist of Incarnate Trials and leagues. Basically, instead of a zone instance like Hamidon where you couldn't control who entered and exited, if it was truly instanced like Incarnate Trials, then no one can enter that you didn't invite to your league (a League essentially being just a very large team). Additionally, even if a person you did invite becomes a problem, you can kick or even initiate a vote to kick. Furthermore, there's no competition for the kill since if someone else wants to try and defeat Jelliton or whoever, they can form their own league with their constituents and do it.
Unless, that is, you mean 'competition' like PvP with heroes against villains for the 'right' to the instance. If that's what you mean, I can't speak to that in terms of future content because I'm not a dev, but I can reiterate what we've been told about PvP and that it won't be a free-for-all unless you're in an area that's designated for it with willing and knowing participants.

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Speaking of early CoH .... I

Speaking of early CoH .... I miss the 5th Column they got shafted for PC purposes and that always nagged in my mind. Yes they are basically Nazi's but Nazi's make awesome fudging villains! Look at comic books! Which i understand was a way to push propaganda in the earlier years but even after WW2 Nazi-like enemy groups have always been bad ass looking threats you just wanna smash the faces of!

Have a nice day!

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Okay, okay. Endgame comments: Yes, 'The endgame is alting' is not meant to be an absolute, more of a goad - we want to make the game fun to play and keep playing, rather than concentrating on raids ... (snip for length)
But if you want to ask about the _heart_ of CoT, it's 'the endgame is alting'. Play your character. Have fun. Get bored? Have a new experience being someone else. And it'll still be fun.

Comments on 'mobile combat' - it's not going to be much more mobile than, say, FFXIV at the worst, and for the most part, you won't really be able to tell the difference other than the odd specialty LT. We know the stories about kids playing on their parents laps, or people with bad reflexes (god knows I'm one - you should see my hands shake) and so on. We're not going to ruin the gameplay for you guys - but we are going to open it up a little. How much depends on a lot of things.
Sound good?

I've been trusting you guys to get it right for a long time now, and mostly I just lurk and check in from time to time, and try to stay out of the way. You've got a vision, and I'm eager to see how it pans out. But every once in a while, I feel the need to chime in, and these are two things that matter to me a lot.

I've had alts in every MMO I've ever played. Some games are more alt-friendly than others. But I have little to no interest in raids. Its always puzzled me how people could hate repeating low-level content, sometimes with very different characters with very different skillsets, but would gladly repeat the same raid over and over again hoping for the purple shoes to drop. Anyway, that's not me. I love alts, and that was one of the things that kept CoH fun for me.

And the combat system was another. It could be simultaneously intense and relaxing. I told my character what power to use and who to use it on, and then the character took care of the rest. I didn't need to deal with the frustration of trying to aim precisely or keep a moving target in my crosshairs.

So anyway, thanks to Warcabbit and everyone else (Dev and otherwise) who has chimed in on these topics. Count me as reassured.

I'll go back to my usual lurking and patiently waiting to see what comes.

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Just catching up with this

Just catching up with this update now - epic! Great primaries, with just the right flexibility thereafter. Nice adjust on archetype names. Devs you have done a great job of explaining the subtleties in your replies without unnecessarily locking down things that playtesting might cause to change. Hopefully we do not burn you out. Also there were some amazing views of the city in there. Thank you!

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Did not expect the switching

Did not expect the switching of secondary abilities, but with as watchful as this community is to potential pitfalls, I think it's a great idea. I can have a jumpy/dodgy enforcer with super reflexes (agility), but if he's going into some crazy live-fire warzone, he could put on some armor, which would weigh him down too much to jump around but protect from undodgable stray bullets. It makes sense. I kind of hate comic book characters that have one gimmick and stick to it even when changing things up would be more logical and increase the odds of their survival. It's like they know they're in a comic book and are posing for the camera. Glad to see we don't have to play it like that here.

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dell56v wrote:
dell56v wrote:

Speaking of early CoH .... I miss the 5th Column they got shafted for PC purposes and that always nagged in my mind. Yes they are basically Nazi's but Nazi's make awesome fudging villains! Look at comic books! Which i understand was a way to push propaganda in the earlier years but even after WW2 Nazi-like enemy groups have always been bad ass looking threats you just wanna smash the faces of!

https://cityoftitans.com/content/vril

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Unless, that is, you mean 'competition' like PvP with heroes against villains for the 'right' to the instance. If that's what you mean, I can't speak to that in terms of future content because I'm not a dev, but I can reiterate what we've been told about PvP and that it won't be a free-for-all unless you're in an area that's designated for it with willing and knowing participants.

Not quite what I was trying to allude to in that scenario. To me it feels a little disingenuous to dump a world boss encounter into a personalized instance just to make it easier to manage. I hated all of the extraneous crap that players could do to hinder the objective of defeating a world boss (lag, leeching, etc). But that can't be the only reason to instance a world boss. If so there is no reason to have any world / outdoor bosses, just make them all instanced (pull together 20, 30, 40 or whatever people, jump inside the instance and kill it).

Instead of a Jelliton, consider a scenario where the Mayor of Titan City is officiating a Super Bowl parade for the city's team. The heroes are tasked with keeping the peace and the villains are tasked with dispatching the security teams and kidnapping the mayor. It could maybe be a resource type scenario (dispatching security or hooligans in support of an avatar or figurehead) or a straight up pvp encounter.
Or maybe there is a inter dimensional creature poking through a space-time hole. The heroes want to force the creature back and close the hole and the villains want to hack off a chunk to fuel some nefarious device. So heal/damage the hole vs damage/heal the creature.

Essentially a scenario where you are not necessarily in direct conflict with the opposing side, but you are competing against them (to appease the portion of the player base that can'/won't engage in pvp).

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<3<3<3~!

<3<3<3~!

Have a nice day!

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I surprised that "Dark" made

I surprised that "Dark" made it to launch. I was worried I'd have to change my Z/DM MM and Dark Corruptor from "negative energy" to black fire.

Maybe this's been addressed, but what's the difference between "super strength" and "brawn", is it an SS vs "street justice" thing, and where do most weapons fit into this?

Overall, EXCELLENT UPDATE!

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Maybe this is better for a

Maybe this is better for a costume thread or whatever, but I'd like to throw out the idea to have elemental versions of any given weapon. Maybe there's a slick way to do it: given a sword, cover it in fire, remove the sword texture, and you're left with a sword of pure flame.

It'd be great to have a fire arrow shot from a flaming bow attack mixed in with regular fireball animations.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I surprised that "Dark" made it to launch. I was worried I'd have to change my Z/DM MM and Dark Corruptor from "negative energy" to black fire.
Maybe this's been addressed, but what's the difference between "super strength" and "brawn", is it an SS vs "street justice" thing, and where do most weapons fit into this?
Overall, EXCELLENT UPDATE!

Weapons are props, and yes, SS vs "Street Justice" is a good way to compare them.

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So then, e.g., If I wanted a

So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.

A sword could go into either set. One change to Brawn is Tactical Combat because of the way players will be able to combo effects, to avoid the issue risen distinguishing between Super Strength and Brawn, and it is / was a way Special Forces named their hand to hand and close quarters fighting.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

desviper wrote:
So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.
A sword could go into either set. One change to Brawn is Tactical Combat because of the way players will be able to combo effects, to avoid the issue risen distinguishing between Super Strength and Brawn, and it is / was a way Special Forces named their hand to hand and close quarters fighting.

Good to know! Though it will be strange to have most weapons fall into one set, it makes sense given the mechanics.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

desviper wrote:
So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.
A sword could go into either set. One change to Brawn is Tactical Combat because of the way players will be able to combo effects, to avoid the issue risen distinguishing between Super Strength and Brawn, and it is / was a way Special Forces named their hand to hand and close quarters fighting.

So how do animations change between the two sets with the same prop then? Is it just swinging speed or does each individual power tier have an associated animation per prop? Or how do you work that?

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Wow, that's quite the update

Wow, that's quite the update this time. Great work, keep it up... and thank you, for doing so.
Now, finally, I understand how the power decoupling is supposed to work... better late than never, eh?
Also, please put those two 'fighting robot' statues in the game. They look pretty awesome.

warcabbit wrote:

Comments on the video: What you're seeing, for the first time, are actual powers - AoEs, buffs, holds, KB, a really nifty DOT (look carefully when the guy drops from the hold, he's on fire.) and others.

I really like the darkness effect... all tentacly, writhing and stuff.
Now I just hope we'll get a proper tentacle prop to hold our victims, slap them around a bit and slam 'em into buildings or the ground =P

Lothic wrote:

we should all be able swing a basic punch/slap even if it does super-pathetic damage.

Don't forget the kick.
I always thought it to be a nice touch that my DB tanker just kicked the mob, instead of dropping his daggers, punching (whatever goon in the face) and then redrawing said weapons. It's just a small detail, but still...

Lothic wrote:

Isn't any one else concerned we're going to be overrun with people playing City of Sailor Moons? ;)

If they want to share the streets with my weird tentacle monsters... well, that's their problem then >:)

dell56v wrote:

Never liked stealth, seem like a cowards way of fighting especially in pvp.

I don't do pvp... but I loved sneaking up on mobs and stabbing 'em in the back.
So, maybe a bit of stealth instead of outright invisibility. At least for pvp.

Brainbot wrote:

Also, keep in mind that just because there was flexibility for team make-up in CoH, most tactics still relied on a Holy Trinity concept, you just didn't need the very best in those roles to succeed.

I've seen way too many all defender, all mm*, all you-name-it ITF's to believe that... in fact, give me a team of brutes and we'd steamroll pretty much everything.
*my poor, poor graphic card. You don't know lag before you've run through lag-valley on a full mm team... make that robots, if you truly hate your computer. ;)

desviper wrote:

So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.

Nah... for ss you use the sledgehammer prop.
*WHACK* Up, up and awaaaayyyy =P

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
desviper wrote:
So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.
A sword could go into either set. One change to Brawn is Tactical Combat because of the way players will be able to combo effects, to avoid the issue risen distinguishing between Super Strength and Brawn, and it is / was a way Special Forces named their hand to hand and close quarters fighting.
Good to know! Though it will be strange to have most weapons fall into one set, it makes sense given the mechanics.

Weapons won't really fall into any set, you can use a weapon for any powerset you want to. They're treated more like a costume piece or an aspect of the power customization.
If you like the idea of a Combo-y playstyle, then take Tactical Combat(Brawn) and pick a Sword as the emanation point of the attacks.
If you'd rather not deal with combos, and just want to mash whichever button deals the most damage, pick Super Strength and pick a Sword just like you did for Tactical Combat(Brawn).
Or maybe you decide that your character acquired a magic/high tech/whatever Flaming Sword, well you can take the Burning powerset and, you guessed it, pick a Sword as the attack Emanation point.

EDIT: Might I suggest cutting "Super Strength" to just "Strength"? "Super Strength" is very specific in it's implications (Strength far beyond that of a normal human), but with AD that may not be the case. "Strength" alone could be either super augmented, or just trained at the normal-and-likely-peak human level, and I feel that just "Strength" would more correctly align with all those times when the powerset is used for anything *other than* the very specific "Super" strength aesthetic.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

desviper wrote:
So then, e.g., If I wanted a longsword as my go-to, I'd pick "brawn" and use a sword prop? I suppose SS would work too.
A sword could go into either set. One change to Brawn is Tactical Combat because of the way players will be able to combo effects, to avoid the issue risen distinguishing between Super Strength and Brawn, and it is / was a way Special Forces named their hand to hand and close quarters fighting.

just to be clear, Can I use martial arts animations with Burning Melee? I could be, FireFist. I might miss the combo attacks, but I could still impress the chicks, right?

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Yes. And I'm sure your ...

Yes. And I'm sure your ... technique would leave quite the impression with the girls. ô.o

Dammit Cyclops, you want me to get banned before the game is even out yet?
There could be children here... don't give me a forward pass like this xD

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Not quite what I was trying to allude to in that scenario. To me it feels a little disingenuous to dump a world boss encounter into a personalized instance just to make it easier to manage. I hated all of the extraneous crap that players could do to hinder the objective of defeating a world boss (lag, leeching, etc). But that can't be the only reason to instance a world boss. If so there is no reason to have any world / outdoor bosses, just make them all instanced (pull together 20, 30, 40 or whatever people, jump inside the instance and kill it).

As for it being the only reason, it is in my opinion that it is reason enough based on my personal experience in having to deal with all the aforementioned problems. However, I didn't and don't view Hamidon as a World Boss as it's encounter was purposefully designed to be a raid. I see CoX's Giant Monsters more as the more traditional World Bosses and those, yes I agree, should not be instanced. World Bosses, in general, don't have a required strategy to defeat, usually just a large(r) body of people, where Raids have a programmed design that require tactics to defeat/finish the encounter. Since the degree of challenge is higher with Raids, as it takes coordination and cooperation within the assembled playerbase, the ability for a single person (or persons) to disrupt (i.e. grief) a raid is higher, and therefore tools should be enabled for the raid leader to be able to remove said disruption (e.g. kick the griefer) where it wouldn't be enough to simply remove said griefer from the group as, if implemented like Hami within a zone, they could still get their hit and receive rewards despite their disruptive behavior, but remove them from the encounter entirely (i.e. kicked from the instance) if the encounter was instanced. That is why I think it should be instanced. And, again, I can't speak for the devs as I'm not one, but also likely why they decided to implement traditional Raids in a true instanced environment.

Quote:

Instead of a Jelliton, consider a scenario where the Mayor of Titan City is officiating a Super Bowl parade for the city's team. The heroes are tasked with keeping the peace and the villains are tasked with dispatching the security teams and kidnapping the mayor. It could maybe be a resource type scenario (dispatching security or hooligans in support of an avatar or figurehead) or a straight up pvp encounter. Or maybe there is a inter dimensional creature poking through a space-time hole. The heroes want to force the creature back and close the hole and the villains want to hack off a chunk to fuel some nefarious device. So heal/damage the hole vs damage/heal the creature.
Essentially a scenario where you are not necessarily in direct conflict with the opposing side, but you are competing against them (to appease the portion of the player base that can'/won't engage in pvp).

This reminds me of the TPN Incarnate Trial where the opposing faction was PvE and their spawns would generate negative influence and control over the population. The job of the heroes and villains was to disrupt their hold over the population so they could see (spoiler alert) that Emperor Cole didn't, in fact, defeat the Hamidon in Praetoria and their whole illusion of safety was shattered. Basically, kill the spawns fast enough and their influence eventually dwindled and you won the encounter. There were other teams involved doing other stuff, but that's pretty much what it came down to; resource management.
I'm generally against PvP in the traditional sense, but your idea isn't a bad compromise.

As an aside, I thought the name 'Jelliton' as a play on 'Hamidon' would have got more of a reaction. Ah well.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

To me it feels a little disingenuous to dump a world boss encounter into a personalized instance just to make it easier to manage

Clearly you've never seen Kazzak rampage through Stormwind.

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Welcome to the party Nos love

Welcome to the party Nos love your comments >)

Have a nice day!

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

To me it feels a little disingenuous to dump a world boss encounter into a personalized instance just to make it easier to manage. I hated all of the extraneous crap that players could do to hinder the objective of defeating a world boss (lag, leeching, etc). But that can't be the only reason to instance a world boss. If so there is no reason to have any world / outdoor bosses, just make them all instanced (pull together 20, 30, 40 or whatever people, jump inside the instance and kill it).

Leeching, griefing and "drama" aren't the only reason why raid type encounters should be instanced. (And when I say instanced, I'm referring to an instance that is able to be controlled by the players).

Consider when the Hamidon raid encounter was changed such that the zone would cap at 50 players. Players above this amount would trigger another instance, but there was no control over who was in what instance beyond the order in which players managed to zone in. This meant if any players from the first raid got DC'd and someone managed to take their place, they wouldn't be able to get back into the raid they were a part of.

I agree that zone GMs (like Jack in Irons, Eochai, Lusca, etc.) didn't need instances because there was very little strategy beyond tank and spank and very little danger of capping the zone. Anything that demands more advanced strategy or actually requires near zone cap numbers to defeat should be in a controlled instance.

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Amygdala wrote:
Amygdala wrote:

I agree that zone GMs (like Jack in Irons, Eochai, Lusca, etc.) didn't need instances because there was very little strategy beyond tank and spank and very little danger of capping the zone. Anything that demands more advanced strategy or actually requires near zone cap numbers to defeat should be in a controlled instance.

Agreed - and this also applies to certain world events like the old Rikti or Zombie raids, or the Ghost Ship. Map suddenly looks funny, mobs appear and you start swatting them. No real strategy, no need to instance them, but a fun little break from missions.

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

I've seen way too many all defender, all mm*, all you-name-it ITF's to believe that... in fact, give me a team of brutes and we'd steamroll pretty much everything.
*my poor, poor graphic card. You don't know lag before you've run through lag-valley on a full mm team... make that robots, if you truly hate your computer. ;)

All combat in CoH required the roles of the Holy Trinity to complete it just didn't require each role to be filled by a specific character. You still needed to control the encounter, survive the encounter and win the encounter.
The examples you provide just changed how a team went about filling those roles. Instead of having one specialized tanker that controlled the crowds the team either boosted another AT to fill that role(defenders/controllers/corruptors were good at this), split the mobs into more manageable groups each team member could handle on their own (all brute/scrapper or even stalkers used this methode), or they used pets as sacrificial lambs (MM's/controllers/dominators and anyone who took mastery pets).
Instead of relying purely on the traditional healers to survive an encounter CoH had a very robust buff/debuff system to supplement or replace those heals and all characters had a way to self heal and self buff.
Finally, every character was able to output damage and with the buff/debuff system few mobs could not be put down by even a team of the lowest DPS characters.

Like I said in the very part you quoted, the flexible combat system in CoH didn't require the traditional Tank, Healer and DPSer but it still required those tactics.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don't think it will be a hard sell. It is tan-targeting still. It just doesn't have enforced rooted on attacks and as a result, we can do more with avoid the area stuff. But no double-tab this to escape and such. And it won't be everywhere either. Of course, opponent npcs may be more mobile as well, so it can be a bit more fluid in certain cases, again with care, not everywhere.

Then you have no concept of the people involved. I wasn't speaking about 'aimed' targeting at all. And, for example, CO doesn't have it. But it *does* have "you have to move around during combat", and it is one of the reasons they don't play that game, despite having a lifetime sub to it.


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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

[snip]
Like I said in the very part you quoted, the flexible combat system in CoH didn't require the traditional Tank, Healer and DPSer but it still required those tactics.

Hmm, I never saw it like this.
/shrug Oh well, live and learn.

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

I've seen way too many all defender, all mm*, all you-name-it ITF's to believe that... in fact, give me a team of brutes and we'd steamroll pretty much everything.
*my poor, poor graphic card. You don't know lag before you've run through lag-valley on a full mm team... make that robots, if you truly hate your computer. ;)

Perhaps one of the single most gleeful experiences I ever had on CoV was running a bank mission with four other MMs, high enough that we had all the upgrades, etc. Everyone could barely move, but it didn't much matter, because anything that came within range got vaporized almost faster than we could notice it. Yeah, I know, "unbalanced" and all, but you know what? Sometimes you want to actually feel like a "super"-whatever, not just some punk with a few toys. And we were mostly a mix that happened to be especially good at hitting the weak spots of most bank missions (not intentionally, it just worked out that way). But part of the reason CoX succeeded is that they were bad at math and didn't manage to make the game balanced the way the originally intended. They did find a balance, but it wasn't that one.

Since I know for a fact that CoT has several folks who are very good at math (in particular the sort of math involved), best cross fingers that they don't forget the "what makes you feel super" part the way CO did in the days immediately post-launch. I say "forget" because I know for a fact that they know -- but I've also seen how easy it is to lose track of that. And trust is irrelevant in that regard, because it either will happen or it won't, and nobody's going to know until things actually break badly the first time -- whether that's a day in, a week, five years, whatever. Because if you don't believe it will happen... "If you aren't planning for failure, then you're planning to fail."


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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
I don't think it will be a hard sell. It is tan-targeting still. It just doesn't have enforced rooted on attacks and as a result, we can do more with avoid the area stuff. But no double-tab this to escape and such. And it won't be everywhere either. Of course, opponent npcs may be more mobile as well, so it can be a bit more fluid in certain cases, again with care, not everywhere.
Then you have no concept of the people involved. I wasn't speaking about 'aimed' targeting at all. And, for example, CO doesn't have it. But it *does* have "you have to move around during combat", and it is one of the reasons they don't play that game, despite having a lifetime sub to it.

Understood. To be clear, we aren't making the game as action oriented as CO either. Especially from early on. As levels and difficulty increases, there could be more encounters with avoid the area effect (if you choose). You could also choose (if it is a common damage type) tomtske the hit - which will also build Momentum.

Primarily, we're removing hard-rooting of powers. Which opens up freedom movement for the player. It doesn't matter if your target is moving around, (not a common thing) if you have them targeted, they can't dodge - it comes down to the hit-roll. You the player won't have to be in constant motion if you don't choose to in general.

We're taking into consideration ease of play with this, we really are. At the same time, we recognize that the taming world has changed since 2004, heck, since 2013, significantly, and we want to take just amcouple of steps away from extremely out dated design, and when possible, step things up.


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Around 13 years later, no mmo

Speaking of WoW, around 13 years later, no mmo capitalized on what WoW has brought to the table. Their in-game formula is rather simple, immersion.

A little bit of fantasy, a little bit of sci-fi, a little bit of open world, a little bit of raiding, a little bit of pokemon, a little bit of travel variety, pets, and so on. The flexibility of that game is deep.

What do you want to do? What to be a James Bond type of guy in a suit that rides a motorcycle, you can do it.

How about something crazier, you want to ride a Triceratops? You can do that.

Ok....how about a fiery Phoenix mount with a fiery blade to go with it? Got that covered too

Open world? Got it

Raiding? Got it.

Name a game today other than WoW in which you can do this? Ride whatever you want to ride, equip whatever you want to equip, have a pet of any animal family, dress how you want to dress? WoW captures the imagaination, this is why it is so successful. Players come there and let their imaginations run wild.

The only thing I can think of that is impossible in WoW is auras.

Today, players do not want sci-fi in their comic titles. Also, get your fantasy out of my superhero games, go play WoW. Well that is exactly what people have done which is why there are only three standing comic themed mmorpg. strangely, comics are sci-fi and fantasy.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

Cinnder
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Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
I think I get it now, but one

I think I get it now, but one question: doesn't that seriously limit MWM's options for power animation? If every/many/most powers can be activated on the move, doesn't that mean you can't create animations that involve the character's lower half, because the legs need to be doing the run animation? I'm assuming we won't be gliding around while doing power animations.

[Edit: simultaneous post. This was meant in response to Tannim's explanation]

Spurn all ye kindle.

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