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"Guardians mend and defend"
Do I detect a reboot fan on our dev team?
[img]http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/reboot/images/b/b3/Bob_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120327145057[/img]
How would being able to switch secondaries become "broken" in CoH? If you mean specific pairings of primary and secondary sets then I don't see why they would be OK at character creation but "broken" if they can be switched to later on.
There is a big difference between adding that capability later on and designing it into the game from the start.
Are any of the presented powersets regeneration-style? It was my favorite defensive power set in CoH because I hate having downtime between fights, but the only one I see from the list that might fit is "Grit".
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
The whole idea of accounting for a player's physical ability to push buttons faster than other players is a semi-touchy subject when related to a MMO like this. When it comes to other game genres like first person shooters or say sports games a player's actual physical "twitch" skills should clearly matter. But with a MMO I would hope the Devs would think very hard before they make twitch-style hand-eye coordination be the most important factor in successful play.
Now obviously reaction speed ought to be "sort of" important even in MMOs. I'm not trying to say that people who play MMOs should not worry about moving fast nor am I suggesting that MMO players should just be able to set their controls on "automatic macro" and not have to be directly involved in maneuvering around. But there's a fundamental difference between these various types of games where it comes to relying on twitch-based dexterity - MMOs generally should NOT rely on that.
For the most part CoH did not require the kind of real-life player skill that say a FPS would require. If you recall during the Winter Events of CoH the Devs provided several ski slopes that uniquely required players to have serious hand-eye coordination in order to complete the runs fast enough to earn gold, silver and bronze ski badges and frankly there were people who could never earn those badges because either they simply lacked the skill and/or their network connections weren't fast enough to allow them to accomplish it. While that was fine for a once-a-year optional event I wouldn't want CoT to rely on that concept for any part of its standard gameplay.
Bottomline CoT should not adopt the need for twitch-based control for anything beyond perhaps an equivalent to CoH's holiday ski slopes.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
No I'm sorry... I should have been more clear when I used the word "broken". I didn't mean the game would become buggy or unplayable from a mechanical point of view. I meant to use the word "broken" more in terms of it allowing for unbalanced or overpowered characters.
I'm not strictly for or against the idea of having "multi-builds" in a game like this. But if a game like CoH had allowed for people to switch their secondaries then they could have had, in the body of one single character, effectively 3 almost uniquely different characters (remember by the end of CoH you could have 3 different builds for each character). This means that for example if a player had a level 50 Claws Scrapper they could have potentially had a level 50 Claws/Regen, a level 50 Claws/Reflex and a level 50 Claws/Willpower all wrapped up in the body of one character. With this situation it would have been very easy to "game" the system and produce Tank-Mages that would be able to do things far beyond what a character who couldn't/didn't have multi-secondary build capability could do.
So when I used the word "broken" in this context I meant "overpowered/unbalanced".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Hmm...I could see a lot of appeal in other forms being added later that are non-solid (water, cloud, phasing, ghostly, electric, light, plasma, ...) at least as aesthetics. If you want to keep the same mechanics for them, the name "Change Form" or similar might fit. On the other hand, the non-solid forms probably make more sense if designed as a new powerset with different mechanics, such as invoking untouchable/phased status, resistance and healing by absorbing attack energy, dodging thru rapid form adjustment, or powerful regen by converting an energy reserve to HP.
You keep said Play Style, im sure more details in the future but I am curious, does this mean the augments we get as we level or something more along the lings of; One set might rely on combos while another needs critical set ups? If that's close then maybe my alt-spree wont suffer too much hah.
Have a nice day!
Now you're thinking!
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Yes! I like when I can do thinks! :)
Edit: But wow that is going to be some crazy ideas for powers if you need play styles that differ for sets, very curious to see how that works! :3
Have a nice day!
untouchable/phased/resistance/absorption/etc are all interesting but none fall into the conceptual framework of 'solid form'
'Solid form' is just an unwieldy and ambiguous analogue for 'density'. whether it's stone skin, iron armor, hulk's impenetrable hide, etc - it's the density of the material that's offering protection. 'solid form' doesn't convey that and it further muddies the proverbial water by signaling the power has/requires a 'non-solid form' alternate state.
I just saw the update and I am SUPER excited!!! No pun intended (okay, who am I kidding...)
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I would use "Altered Physical Form" to be more generic. You could have, say, wooden plant-like features or tough lizard scales, etc, and I don't think those would evoke the idea of density in any way to the casual observer. This would also allow things like human torch-ism, iceman-ism, etc. Those are graphics I'd like ot see everyone be able to use as either costume textures or full body auras (or both...) but in the event that the devs can actuallt suss out a set of powers for a bunch of different body materials, that would probably, to me, be the most generic "your damage mitigation stems from having a body not made of normal human flesh and bone per se" type deal. Heck, you could have flesh and bone and just be an alien or something, right? Still "Altered Physical Form" in my book. You could just call it "Physical Form" even, since "Non-normal" isn't really a word.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
So regarding change of secondary:
-I assume this will be gated behind a trial similar to a respec trial, or if not, involve a solo-able story arc with similar levels of time investment.
-In regards to respec trials, I assume that each build would need to be respec'd separately from one another.
-I assume that any given character will be limited to the number of times they can undergo this trial/story challenge.
-I assume that any given character has a maximum number of alternate builds that can even be stored and swapped to, preventing a player from having one character with every spec for a given class. ((In my eyes, 5 builds on one character seems excessive. 2 or 3 feels like a sweetspot, but 3 may even be pushing it.))
-I assume the limiting rules such as frequency of change, how to change, and where to change are still up in the air and open to feedback when the time comes for alpha and beta testing.
If my above assumptions are correct and nothing is fully set in stone limitations wise for community discussion, then I am all for proceeding forward. While I personally would still run multiple characters for completely unique concepts, I do like the idea of having an enforcer as a more casual play character, who can then go full striker when I feel like being a little more dynamic and reckless.
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
Along those lines... and taking into account what Scott Jackson mentioned, I think the following might make sense:
In a mission arc that sends you on your first party-sized dungeon, one of the rewards for completing the dungeon, or maybe a reward for the mission just before the dungeon, is a build slot. This build slot would be nominally for a party build, but the player can make it what she wants.
In a mission arc that sends to the player to a PvP area, one of the rewards is a build slot. This build slot would be nominally for a PvP build, but the player can make it what he wants.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
This is making me think I'll be able to design a Kamen Rider/Super Sentai style hero. That makes me super excited :D
-Dark MatterTRON from Triumph!
Again I would assume the CoT Devs are going to use the [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Multiple_Builds]multi-build system as it existed in CoH[/url] as a starting point. If that's the case then many of your questions such as how many builds we'll have per character and how often we can switch between them might already be answered to various degrees.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm glad to see the progress you guys have been making on the game, i'm really looking forward to playing when it comes out. In CoH I was rated as the 3rd best healer in game while I was actively playing. Now this brings me to three problems I'm seeing with this latest update. First, list of powers. There's no healing powers that I see, are they covered in one of the ones listed? In CoH, there were primary and secondary power sets that you could not "choose", e.g. Scrappers had Melee as a primary and defensive as a secondary, tanks were opposite. Will we be able to choose our primary and secondary power sets? I would love to be a primary healer and secondary controller, in CoH I had to be a primary controller and secondary healer. Imagine my numbers if I didn't suffer a -25% to my heals. Second, the attack dummy in your demonstrations. Every time he was hit, his MP bar decreased along with his HP bar, but the number 200/200 stayed the same. (just in case you guys didn't catch it, would probably be easier to nip it now rather than later). Third is aesthetics. The NPC that is walking behind the fight. His movement speed does not match the rate of his footwork causing his feet to move faster than his body, causing the look of trying to walk on a moving sidewalk that is moving in the wrong direction.
Grit will play more closely to Willpower from CoH. Regeneration will happen, just not at launch.
Interestingly, that was part of the original concept. As a whole it doesn't quite accurately dedcribe how the set plays.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I've had my Battle Fever J Miss America clone character planned for years now. ;)
[img=250x250]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/07/f6/19/07f619d9bbcb82a168857e1b0fb2ee0e.jpg[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Ok, so you clarify what you meant by "broken" but I still don't see how it would be possible to create these "tank-mages" by using another build-slot if you can't do so upon character creation. All I see is increase flexibility.
Sure I could have a level 50 Claws/Regen, a level 50 Claws/Reflex and a level 50 Claws/Willpower all wrapped up in the body of one character but I can only use one of them at a time, and switching has some restrictions. How is that going to turn someone into a "tank-mage"?
As always there's a spectrum of degrees between something being "not quite overpowered" versus being "way overpowered".
For instance if we could switch between these multi-builds on the fly instantly with no timeouts then I'd assume the Devs would consider that "very unbalanced", especially in PvP situations. That's why like in CoH there will likely be a build switch timeout timer to make sure we can't just switch whenever we want.
Now let's say a player figures out if they make a certain multi-build character with specific secondary X and secondary Y then they could easily solo content that was intended for teams. This would be the "Tank-Mage" scenario I mentioned. This of course gets into more of a grey area but again I would suspect the Devs would pay very close attention to this to make sure it wasn't being overly exploited. Yes the player would still be restricted by the build switch timer but again it's a matter of degrees just like gold farming - the Devs won't prevent people from gold farming but they will prevent people from doing it too easily/efficiently.
Obviously the final arbiters of what would be considered "unbalanced" in CoT will be the Devs. But you can be rest-assured that the multi-build system will be controlled/restricted as necessary to prevent people that use multi-builds from having too much of an "advantage" over people who either can't or don't use multi-builds.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Awesome. Love having more options.
For further clarity because others are discussing more exploitative behavior than 'tank-magery':
"Tank Mages' is more a catch-all term than a descriptor in this case. And you already hit the reason why it [b]could[/b] broken. Flexibility.
Some MMO's balance around the concept of strengths and weaknesses. Each power set comes with built in strengths and weaknesses.
Looking at just armor, one can eliminate all weaknesses and gain all the strength by swapping builds depending on foes you face.
For example, in one mission you face foes who do strong normal damage and no elemental damage so you use a build with a strong normal damage armor, next mission the foes do high fire damage so you use fire armor and so on.
The same can be said of attacks, controls or support. Every situation in the game has a 'best choice' power set suited for it. By allowing players the option to swap into these best choices easily you make balancing of strengths and weaknesses more difficult to design a game around. If it is done poorly in either direction you have created a 'broken' game.
There are ways, as the devs most likely know already, how to minimize the difficulty of maintaining balance in a system that allows for swapping of powers. Lothic is just offering a word of caution to the devs and not predicting doom so it's not something we should worry about too much until we know a bit more about the combat system.
I mean, we don't even know if the game is going to be designed around the concept of 'strength vs weakness' yet.
To give an exmple: Starting out as a sonic/thermal corruptor, but once the thermal debuffs of heat exhaustion and melt armor are popped, the player switches to /radiation to add more debuff toggles, or maybe they switch to a /willpower set for more stamina recovery and hp/resistance/defense while they pound the giant monster with the sonic attacks. Or let's say it's a sonic/kinetics, and they round up a bunch of mobs to hit fulcrum shift, then switch to a secondary with scrapper defenses and a pain aura like dark armor.
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
These are all valid concerns, and which is why the following is being considered, and I'll breifly give reasons for why:
A restrictive, non-adjustable timer between switching builds. This would be on an order of magnitude of those "game changing" powers with high recharge timers - so we would be looking at 10 minutes as a minimum. This is to minimize the impact on sudden changes adversely affecting play.
Second would be specific build-load out locations "safe zones" if you will, where builds are allowedmro be swapped out. This could be a player base, game-world activity hubs (such as where shopping, crafting, or power testing occur). This is also to minimize sudden changes adversely affecting play, but also provide a place where a player can stop to think ahead about the type of content they will engage with and choose their appropriate build.
Now, the question mah come up as to why both?
Well, the safe zone prevents a sudden change of abilities the player may have - such as combining effects, compounding attacks - these power sets are separate so if you use a secondary nuke in one set, switch, the nuke is available for that set. Both of which can be detrimental to game balance for pve and pvp.
The timer exists because of future proofing, where players may be able to have temp powers combined with travel powers to get to and from a combat location in seconds.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thank you for Elaborating Tannim. I assumed this kind of consideration had been taken, but it's definitely welcome to get a little bit more hard information to cement in the confidence rather than sitting on assumptions for a couple months. Again, thank you very much.
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
Now that i have had some time to maul some more over this and the hype has calmed a bit so I can think clearly... I fear this game which was suppose to be alt-friendly, not longer is. Or (hopefully) I am misunderstanding how the system works. It seems the system is a bastard child of Secret World's Wheel of Progress where you can unlock anything you want; and FF14's one character does all classes or can do. So where normally I would make 6 or 8 characters, there is no need and in fact a slowing progress for doing so, as to just sticking to one person. Please tell me I'm wrong I would love to be wrong right now :<
Have a nice day!
This is why I do not agree with the design decision of allowing the player to swap secondary (Specialization) power sets.
I like the RP rationale of being able to swap power sets (either as a one off or something with a long cool down or special trial).
You are giving the player too much flexibility within one single character. I believe it skews the mindset away from teaming and adapting tactics to just swapping out the toolbox for a different toolbox. Someone earlier used the WoW analogy for Paladins. I play a Retribution Paladin and basically chew through everything. If I encounter a particularly nasty world boss, I swap to Prot and solo it. If I get bored and want to queue for an instance, I swap to Prot and get a near instant queue.
I am fine with utilizing multiple build(s) to give the character flexibility within the powersets that they have chosen. If you want your Iron Man multi suit flexibility, slot your powers differently, skew your enhancements more for defense or whatever.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
It's always good to have the Devs confirm things. But as I suspected pretty much everything Tannim just said [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Multiple_Builds]came from the very same exact reference I made earlier as to how they did these things in CoH[/url].
Why recreate the wheel when you don't have to in every case? ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Relax, folks. This is not XIV's all-in-one character. Look at what you're keeping. Your primary. Your job.
You might be able to shift from a classic tank to a ranged tank to the odd concept of a control tank, but you're still a tank. You might be able to shift from a buffer to someone who is a pure party-based healer with no offense, to someone who can buff and take a few hits - but you're still going to be a buffer type.
You're going to still have the same primary job, the same primary power set - and it looks like we'll have a variant of each secondary power set for each Specialization - so you're keeping that too.
We're going to have a lot of power sets out there, and a lot of classes. We want to make sure each power set plays as differently as Broadsword, Two Weapon and Spines did, and this just means more things for you to explore.
Our motto has always been 'The endgame is alting', and we've been working really hard on making it easy to make sure your third or tenth time through is as fun as your first. (Nothing's as fun as the first time, but we're trying.)
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Then I stand behind you guys 100%! Keep up the good work!
Have a nice day!
Oh, and yes, swapping will have a cooldown timer and possibly take about thirty seconds or so (details to be tested in QA), so any buffs will wear off - or be discharged - and any idea of herding, swapping, and then nuking won't work - for one thing, you'll certainly have to be out of combat to do it. Theoretically, you could run out of a mission, change in a phone booth, and run back in to save the day when the team tank disconnects, but... who'd do a thing like that?
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Because now there are wheel that go sideways too =p (playing around, obviously)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omni_wheel
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
No I'm not predicting "doom" related to this at all. If anything I'm simply predicting that most of the "rules/restrictions" related to multi-builds in CoT will be essentially identical to the ones that existed in CoH for the very same reasons those things were needed in CoH.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I am REALLY excited about this update! All the different combinations and possibilities sound so interesting. I'm typically a Blaster main, so hearing about the Manipulation delay kind of threw me off but the idea of being able to try out so many different combinations should sate me until Manipulation sets are released. =)
A question, though. How is stealth and invisibility being handled at launch? Will it be a tertiary set, or... ?
And if/when you plan on adding a stealthy set or archetype, how are you going to avoid making it feel like it was shoehorned in?
Thank you!
I suspect the build switch cooldown timer for CoT will need to be a lot longer than 30 seconds to account for power duration overlaps. But obviously as you point out whatever works after you thoroughly test it will likely be fine.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That belongs to those who Master their gameplay....
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I come from the net.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
My take on the multi-build thing:
1. If it's mostly for the flexibility of making all classes soloable and teamable, you could have a pop-up dialog box that asks if you want to swap builds whenever you join a team. Or you could force players to remember to do that on their own, but only allow it while teamed. You might even have a setting in options where you can default to the one build while soloing and the other while teamed, possibly including a costume change, just to remind you visually that you just swapped builds. That said I'd still have the timer, I'd make that timer more like [s]30 min[/s] (5 min?), and I'd suppress switching during combat if possible.
2. I don't love the idea of making people go to a specific location to swap builds, because it makes teaming up less easy than not having the build switching at all. If we all only ever had one build, we would plan our lives around that build we have and join or not join teams as the opportunities present themselves, on the fly, with no prep work needed. If we have to go to the nearest "Changing Room" or something to swap builds, then suddenly you "can't" team up unless and until you find a place to swap, which causes you to have to make others wait for you and as such makes people less likely to agree to team up at all, I feel. On the other hand, if those places are many and close together (the opposite of few and far between) then presumably we'd all need to hit the changing room or whatever before doing the content we're doing anyway, so maybe it happens lot and people get used to it, I don't know. And maybe there are Changing Rooms at or near all fo the places where people would congregate to do TFs etc anyway.
3. I like that having multiple builds kind of makes people need more gear (and by gear I mean Augments and Refinements, because THIS game won't have "gear" in the traditional sense, yadda yadda yadda the usual disclaimers, etc)
4. GW2 allows people to switch weapons pretty rapidly back and forth, during combat even, and that does effect the 1-5 attack powers a lot. Not sure anyone can tank-mage off of it, because that would depend on the powers themselves. It's possible that the swapping of builds in CoT will only exchange one relatively weak secondary set for a different, but still weak one, and as such not really overpower anyone, just give them powers like "heal other" and "teleport friend to your location" and "rez other" etc that you might want while teamed but not be able to use while soloing.
5. As long as the different classes actually play different from each other, even with the build swapping, I think it'll work. As long as Stalwarts, for example, are able to configure "Tankier" than the other classes' best attempts at supplanting that function, I think it'll work.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
YES. I love me some WP. And with Titan Weapons being props, I can re-roll my TW/WP!
This is what happens when you make an official release that is vaguely worded. There is nothing in there about a specific location to swap builds. There is nothing mentioned about a timer. There is no mention of a restriction on the number of builds available or how you acquire them.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
I'm surprised no one has jumped all over the following bit buried in the announcement:
Isn't any one else concerned we're going to be overrun with people playing City of Sailor Moons? ;)
[img=300x300]https://d1m6vmmwsgiy3l.cloudfront.net/images/screenshots/screenshot_1_35966.jpg[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It's not really -that- fair to think that every single minor detail about something like this is going to be spelled out in an initial generalized announcement.
Also everything you just mentioned (a specific location to swap builds, anything about a timer, a restriction on the number of builds available or how you acquire them) were all part of the way multi-builds worked in CoH. When lacking any other specific information directly from the CoT Devs it's probably at least relatively safe to assume that "anything carried over from CoH to CoT" is going to be at least initially similar to the way it worked in CoH. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think most people can be expected to assume on their own that "You will be able to do X". doesn't mean "You will always be able to do X at any time, at will, with no restrictions, drawbacks, or other rules in place." If you tell people, for instance, "You will be able to shoot energy blasts out of your eyes." this doesn't guarantee that such a power will be available to all classes and builds, with no endo cost when activated, no cool-down timer, etc etc. I personally wouldn't ever take "X is going to be possible" to mean "X is going to be possible without any drawbacks or limits, because I didn't stipulate any right here and now."
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Ok, We have The Launch Powers List ... But is that list only for primary power set? Or this list works for secondary power set too?
Cause in CoH, secondary power set wasn't exactly the same... or no have the same powers...
(And where are Water Blast and Electrical Blast?? It's kind of other animations or it will be post launch power set?)
It is a legitimate fear but I think you might be missing some things in your assessment.
Right now we are assuming a lot about how power sets work based on our knowledge of CoH. In CoH the secondary was basically the same as a primary and it was the class that defined the power levels of that secondary. A Scrapper's secondary was not as strong as a Tank's primary for example.
We just don't know enough about how secondaries work in CoT to make that comparison right now. We don't know if a power set is the same as a secondary as it is in a primary. It may not just be a function of strength but of capability or limits. You may have the full range of powers when it is a primary but when taken as a secondary some powers may not be available. Imagine missing build up, snipe and nuke on a defender secondary while a blaster primary has those powers. It may not be as simple as that kind of trade off either. A secondary might have limits on slotting, area of affect, recharge or any other aspect might be dramatically different than if it was a primary.
Secondary swapping could be quite different than the systems in Final Fantasy or Secret world and nothing about it suggest extended game play to 'finish' a character.
The devs have spoken about how detrimental to longevity a system that allows a character who can learn every ability can be. This system is not one which allows a single character to have access to everything. This system takes elements of stances and combat paths then combines them into something unique.
You have your classes which are Stalwart, Guardian, Ranger and so on. Then you have your stances like the Stalwarts Bastion, Bulwark and Centurion. Then you have your combat paths which would be your secondaries.
So when you make a character you choose a class, say Stalwart, which has a primary choice you make, say Grit. That becomes your core character which does not change. Then you are able to make a temporary choice about stance which has a list of combat paths (secondaries) available like a Centurion with Burning. Later you can change from Centurion to Bulwark or Bastion and the corresponding combat paths (secondaries) but your character remains a Stalwart with Grit.
You won't be able to make a Stalwart and then change it into a Ranger with it's stances and combat paths for example. As you can see, there are still many options you do not have access to when you make a character which means alting is still a very attractive option but for those who don't have time or desire to alt this gives them more options with one character.
On the surface it may seem like it would take longer to 'finish' your character but I don't think that is how the system will work. You won't have to grind out the stances or paths like you do in games like Secret World or Final Fantasy. When you are able to swap your stance and combat path you will have the full range of options open for your core character. The only thing that may take more time is earning CoT's version of gear which is how it should be.
Now I would keep everything I said here as my personal assumptions because all the data is not available to us but this system doesn't seem to me like it would make alting less common or feel more grindy.
The dev's smoothed that fear over but thanks for the informative read :D
Have a nice day!
You're welcome, but it wasn't just for you. There may be others who haven't thought about these things or are confused by the devs shorter explanations.
True! Always nice to have some things out there for people to read that AREN'T swallowed up by confusion or quick to judge emotional knee jerk responses :D
Have a nice day!
Looking at the launch powers list, I should be able to re-roll most of my favourite characters from CoH. Even keeping themes and props out of it, the list seems like a good selection. Don't see a Storm Summoning analogue yet though *sadface*. Hopefully in the future.
As for the names - I like just about all of them, though "Grit" is a little odd. Maybe it's an American thing? When I first saw "Grit" I thought of sand or dirt lol. If Grit is the Willpower analogue then maybe "Fortitude", "Resolve" or "Discipline" could also work?
<--- This one is SUPER Disappointed that Grit is not a Regen equivalent.
On to the tentative naming. The first one that struck me was Heat Generation under Support. I get why you can't just call it Generation, as that implies something totally different. But I think in order to ditch the non-decoupling friendly "Heat" modifier, we're going to need to know a bit more about this sets operation to give it a better name.
Secondly, Cold. Same deal this is far too elemental to be a good fit with decoupling. I might suggest "speed" as I would bet that a cold based control set has a lot of slows.
Sonic...same deal as cold but I never played a sonic support character in COH only the blaster type so, I dunno what a better name would be.
I really enjoyed the content in this update and appreciate the clarification on the Augment Refinement clarification. I think that means Mods are like enhancements then?
If I may offer a bit of a writing critique. The style of the whole post felt a bit like a rough draft. I think you could have dropped the colonated headings and been more descriptive in the actual content. The graphics were great but they didn't seem to support the content. I did offer to edit a certain devs posts, I'd be happy to do the same if draft press releases were to pop up in my messages (email available by request.)
Second Chance: https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/CityOfTitans/SecondChance/
Dev Tracker: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/fixing-dev-digest
Dev Comments: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/dev-comments
Oh, I am just as guilty as everyone else when it comes to knee jerk, hotheaded and emotional responses and the like. But thanks for the compliment.
Bottomline the multi-build concept they are talking about having in CoT is almost exactly the same system that existed in CoH for years and it never "hurt" the alt-friendliness of that game. There's really no initial reason to believe things will be different in CoT in this regard.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It's my understanding that they apply to both. Stalwarts and Enforcers share the Protection and Melee powers, Rangers and Guardians share Ranged and Support sets (and the Support sets are further shared with Operators). I think the only unique sets are the Control sets limited to the Operators.
This is a concern of mine because I would like a bit deeper explanation of decoupling. Originally decoupling was explained in a more 'all encompassing' manner which made many think power sets were more generic than they now appear to be. But just as a counterpoint to my own concerns, just because something has a cold effect does not mean it has to [b]look[/b] cold. It could be cold fire, cold ghost tendrils or cold steel swords.
It's been a hard topic with many people having many opinions - but removing all 'flavor' from a power set tends to leave people uninspired. Do you think of the debuffing pbaoe set or Storm Summoning?
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Both of these sound like a cosmetic theme rather than a kind of secondary power effect to me. That said, I don't see anything that looks like it would be a slowing, or an endurance draining effect in the main descriptors either.
EDIT: I do see cold as a control set there.
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
The problem we kept running into is how to name the sets under such a setup? The original names were so generic that nobody was happy.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Don't get too attached to those, some were pulled from an extremely old list, or a descriptor of an effect.
Heat Generation isn't just generation because there are different sets thst use different themes.
Heat in this case is an analogue for burning, and Burning Generation didn't sound well, especially with the power names. Heat covers a wide range of stuff that can generate heat or burn. The same goes goes for Cold because Freezing was too specific.
Sonic isn't a set, it is an aesthetic theme.
We're working on getting this updated and it is why we didn't include this particular info in our Kcikstater version of the update.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Hey really nice work on all of the graphics and powers. I know the mobs, and in particular the ones you fight, might not be at this level of development yet, but might I suggest that a sense of pain or slowing down is programmed into them. That when they're hit they appear to be in pain, or a they weaken their actions become slower and more luggish; it might even be worth programming them to stay knocked out for a short amount of time when they're on low health, then having them get back up in an injured sort of way to continue to fight (not in an irritating respawn sort of way of course). I uggest this in the hope that it might add another layer of depth to the game. Please tell me what you think, it IS only a suggestion :)
So am i to believe pet classes wont be in at launch? ;-; (not complaining still plenty of fun choices but ...my pets! ;^;)
Have a nice day!
We can't guarantee them at this time. They're a lot of work to get done right.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
No worries just asking :3
Have a nice day!
Thank you, but my concerns are more related to power set design and not the naming conventions. As Tannim points out, you don't think of a power set as a generic set of powers.
It was brought up before about how appearance does not account for how it plays. Claws did not play like Broadsword in CoH after all. Fitting an animation to a power set is easier than giving those power sets a unique feel. It's more than just the effects or damage they do. A complaint I had in CoH was how Katana, Broadsword and Mace all felt so similar which had nothing to do with their animations and everything to do with the generic power design. Same with most Ranged or control sets. Most played very similar. In contrast armors and support had a wider range of distinctive game play.
CoH was able to break this mold later in its development to some degree but those initial sets still felt very generic in its play style up until shutdown.
The pet class..? =0
I am equally confused and intrigued!
So, does that mean a /possibility/ of 0 stealth options at launch? Not even in tertiary?
Never liked stealth, seem like a cowards way of fighting especially in pvp.
Have a nice day!
Cool opinion.
Are you suggesting that stealth doesn't exist in the game at all? Or what was your constructive intent with this post?
Easy there cowboy, that's all it is; an opinion. I couldn't care less if it was in the game or not. Not being my preference but that is me.
Have a nice day!
Maybe one day I'll get to do a write up on power set design which will explain things in more detail. For now, please just know that the issue you described above is intentionally avoided in our power set design.
For one, due to aesthetic decoupling which can allow for the possibility of two different power sets looking the same, we have to design sets around a mechanical-theme so that the sets function differently, even if they are under the same basic play style such as melee.
At the same time, we have to design sets to make sure that there are ones which are easy to grasp how to play them, with some depth to play. Which is in part how we chosenat our launch sets. Then there will eventually be sets which have some more difficult mechanics, comparatively speaking, and which may require some additional thought on tactical appplication, with an even greater depth of play. This isn't easy to accomplish.
The end result is, no two sets under the same basic play style such as Melee, or Support, and so on,'plays exactly the same way as any other set. Each have different focused play styles, such as melee single target or melee aoe. And every set under those focused play styles has a different mechanical theme further differentiating each set, say damage over time vs. target vector displacement (knock effects).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
SoH are only launching with four powers and commanders are not one of them. They want to get the game out ASAP. I am noticing a trend of a lack of pet information from any of the three; other than VO's ambitious customization options. I believe you.
I asked about this also, any news? Even if it is subject to change.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I have pets lol!!!
[color=Red]Senior Gameplay Engineer.[/color]
I'm sure you are, my concern is not full blown mania. It's more of the 'trust but verify' variety.
I also have control powers.
[color=Red]Senior Gameplay Engineer.[/color]
That's Fred, as cited in the update. We _have_ had pets _working_ since the early days - Fred, you wanna dig up that bear video? And as far as control is concerned - why you see it in the video. (and then the guy gets lit on fire and you can see him burning)
It's just 'working' and 'usable' are two different things.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Is there a place you devs have set aside to ask for a specific monthly update? I seem to remember one but can't find it now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WyeACUgE84&t=18s
Here you go very old stuff, but I have been working on them.
[color=Red]Senior Gameplay Engineer.[/color]
Oh and the AI will react to hits and stop and be slowed and everything just haven't implemented it yet. Also the stances will be added in for combat if there was any doubt.
[color=Red]Senior Gameplay Engineer.[/color]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_An5r2s41c
Some old control WIP also.
[color=Red]Senior Gameplay Engineer.[/color]
I love that tumbling-in-air animation. That was one of my favorites from CoX and I hope to see something like it in CoT as well.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I don't believe you, hehe
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I dont think I ever saw that, thanks.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Sounds great to me.
The timer thing will be similar to how it was in CoH. I used to have a "team" build and a "solo" build on my favorite Controller character. It wasn't like I was hopping back and forth all the time. It was very handy and provided good flexibility to make my favorite character even better.
Sounds like you could sign on to a different character with a different primary [b]and[/b] secondary faster than you can change builds in CoT. Should be fine.
As long as they don't lock it behind a gender wall so that Magical Bishonen Squire Feérique can use it ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
A somewhat old-fashioned American thing ^_^. They say Rooster Cogburn has True Grit....
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065126/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2n
Or
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1403865/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
It is in the FAQ forum (stickied), but it has been locked for a while now.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
There have been a few questions about which powers filter under which heading and "How can I create X power?" so far.
Can MWM provide more information on all of the launch powers so we understand the decoupled baselines?
If we understand the function & mechanics of the basic powersets, we can then apply the aesthetic form to complete the picture.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
Launch Powers List
(all names tentative)
Protection
Burning · Agility · Invulnerability · Solid Form · Grit
Melee
Super Strength · Burning · Brawn · Dark · Kinetic
Ranged
Force · Burning · Kinetic · Psychic · Dark
Support
Heat Generation · Sonic · Devices · Force Field · Kinetic
Control
Gravity · Mind · Cold · Illusions · Force
********************************************************************************
[b]Black Falcon build;[/b] just drawn from the above lists
Gladiator/Brute
[b]Melee: Dark
Protection: Burning[/b] (I will choose/purchase a minimized animation to show as little flame as possible, colors will be black and purple)
[b]Tertiary Powers: Brute Build[/b] increased strength/damage with Rage (?). standard brute stuff
the original Black Falcon was a Dark/Electrical Brute. I played her more as a solo character...the electrical was there for two reasons. The damage shield and the animation did not obscure the character like Dark Defense did - I want to SEE my toons. I loved to jump into a mob, take out the Boss, the Lieutenants, and by the time I was done, the damage shield took out the minions for me. I loved playing brutes for just that reason.
But now I want to see the write ups on all the Protection power sets. I am fascinated by Solid Form. since I don't need to look like a walking boulder, I really want to see what it can do.
Devs, could you please give us a sample character or two in a future write up? I'm looking for how this hero will look on paper, primary, secondary, tertiary...just a nice build with power choices explained.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Not that's it's expected on day one or anything but I hope alting isn't all you have planned for endgame. I loved city of heroes but after leveling several characters to 50 and nothing to do with them beyond the task forces I had already completed thousands of times I was getting pretty bored until incarnate trials were added. You need reasons to play those characters after max level besides socializing for a few missions. Multi group content and large scale trials and raids is fun; especially with how rewarding it was in cox. Going rogue and beyond would have been a colossal failure without it as a game without goals for your characters doesn't last.
I think it is time to bring up this table again:
[img]http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/zombie_guy/TPP/CoTats_zps56a08933.png[/img]
I believe that what is called [b]defense[/b] in the table is called [b]protection[/b] in this announcement.
Notice that each powerset is represented in both the primary and secondary offerings. I believe the devs have said that when the powerset is a secondary powerset it is not as effective as a primary, but otherwise is similar.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
After a little more thought, I've tried to summarize my concerns with build-swapping of specifications (and thus secondary powersets), with some help from Radiac's post. It's somewhat lengthy, but the topic and its effects are tough to address with anything less.
This was actually a reason why I never used CoH builds - too much trouble to re-acquire all the "gear". To make a team build (2), say, something as minor as adding leadership and recall friend, I would have needed to either get all of the IOs again, or accept a big loss in power compared to build 1 just to get those team-y powers and slot everything with SOs. Keep in mind, most games don't require the player to get a second complete set of gear to make their alternate builds viable. Of course it does make sense that the player might need new gear for the specific powers added to the team build (leadership, recall).
However, if CoT is going to allow secondary swapping, then perhaps a full set of gear per build is a fair price to be paid for the increase in flexibility. I'd just ask that we consider distinguishing between a build with minor changes as allowed in CoH (power choices and tertiary swaps) and major (secondary powerset choice), and allow the minor-difference builds to reuse gear that the character already has in build 1. I think we'd want to encourage minor adjustments to a second build to make oneself more team-friendly or set up for PVP, not lock it behind another gear grind.
Let's assume for the moment that setting up a character for secondary swapping incurs a gear grind price - that resolves my concern about reduced alting. I'd be equally motivated to make alts versus adding secondary-swap builds in this case.
That's my biggest concern - if players start strongly favoring a certain class because of the flexibility of its secondary, then we're in law of unintended consequences territory. For example, each Stalwart primary powerset needs to be superior at protection...so superior, in fact, that it outweighs (in nearly all situations) what an Enforcer can accomplish by build-swapping to their best Protection secondary against each enemy group. If Enforcers' flexibility to shift between various damage type resistances, regen, and dodge mechanics (as defined in the secondary powersets) to optimize protection against each enemy group makes them tankier against a lot of enemy groups than that primary-locked tank, then I think we've made a serious mistake. The only way for players to give any specific feedback on this is to wait for powerset details and enemy group powers to be revealed, so I'm on pause with this concern.
The other possible unintended consequence centers around teaming and any classes that allow a buff/debuff secondary specification. It seems likely that teams will strongly prefer RangedDamage/Support (CoH-equivalent Corruptor) over RangedDamage/Manipulation (CoH-equivalent Blaster, to be added later). Are we setting players up to experience unintended social pressures to play their character with one "right specification" on teams? In CoH and CoT, teams could exclude players on the basis of their original class selection (and this wasn't -too- common). But swappable secondaries create a new way for teams to make demands on invitees - one that hits casual players particularly hard, as they are less likely to be experienced with multiple builds. Even if we assume that everybody is prepared with multiple builds to avoid that issue, if any experienced blaster can potentially become a /kin corrupter on-demand, are we going to lose something as a playerbase? Most CoH playstyles were accepted (main exception - knockback) on teams, but will that diversity dwindle in the face of team pressure to build-swap into buff mode whenever possible?
Now combine the two... How does a CoH-equivalent Defender fairly compete with Corruptors who can build-swap to a support set the team is currently missing? Due to several classes' ability to swap to a support specification, players will be more likely to have access to support powers than we did in CoH. Thus, overlap between those support powersets will be more common. Two teaming Forcefield/ defenders can't adjust to be more useful because they're locked into their primary powerset, but two /FF Corrupters can negotiate so that one swaps to /Kin. Defenders are marginalized by their inability to swap to a new support powerset, and while they could change from /Burning to /Dark Ranged Damage, that's not as likely to make a noticeable difference to them or the team. The flexibility to swap secondary support sets seems incredibly powerful to me, outweighing anything but some much larger difference (compared to CoH) in support effectiveness between the Primary and Secondary versions of the support powersets.
Unless I'm misreading the way secondary swapping is proposed to work, I anticipate a drop in diversity of playstyles when teaming, both through pressure to conform to team requests and players naturally seeking optimal outcomes for themselves. Classes with the ability to choose secondaries from /Protection or /Support are the ones to watch as they get very popular and converge on having 3 optimal secondary builds to best handle all enemy groups or team support situations, while diversity within each class fades. Monitor classes with Protection/ and Support/ for a low popularity unless heavily advantaged in some other way, but at least there's a bit of good news here - secondary build optimization won't lead to as much loss of diverse playstyles within these classes, since swapping their secondaries is not quite as game-altering.
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