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Discuss What We Can Do: Archetypes

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss What We Can Do: Archetypes

And with this we've about wrapped up the new sections for the site. All that's left is the...uh...nothing. Nothing else is happening to the website. Archetype icons look cool right!

NOTE: This the complete list of PLANNED Archetypes, rather than the at launch list.

Read the update

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notears
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Well the symbols look cool

Well the symbols look cool

avelworldcreator
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Nothing else is happening to

Nothing else is happening to the web site while we watch for feedback on this latest update for a while. The web team doesn't want to disrupt things just yet. Keep watching. :D

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Not hard to trace these back

Not hard to trace these back to their spiritual ancestors in CoH, with some variation to be expected, of course.

So six major archetypes breaking down into 18 sub-types. Add to that all the variety from different powersets and animations. One of the great things in CoH was the ability to build a character that could really feel distinct. I am glad to see CoT headed down that path (and even moreso). Not that I ever doubted it would.

Always pleased to see things moving forward.

Planet10
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The Operator quote is

The Operator quote is somewhat lacking.
“All for one and… you know the rest.”
Really? Come on
Commit to a quote or just leave it blank.

I'd almost rather it be "MOLON LABE 'come and take them' (from me)"

(the icons look spiffy though)

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Yeah how about "Army of one"

Yeah how about "Army of one" for the operator

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I had previously noticed the

I had previously noticed the archetype page and read it. I must say it's nice to see things taking shape.

I'm assuming that the previous suggestions about which classifications and specifications will be ready for launch have not changed? If so, then not all of these will be available, presumably.

I took particular note of one aspect of the description for guardians, that they can provide their teammates with new abilities. This suggests to me something that goes beyond City-of-Heroes-like buffs to attributes like damage or defense--it's possible to actually provide teammates with entirely new powers?

Doctor Tyche
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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

I had previously noticed the archetype page and read it. I must say it's nice to see things taking shape.
I'm assuming that the previous suggestions about which classifications and specifications will be ready for launch have not changed? If so, then not all of these will be available, presumably.
I took particular note of one aspect of the description for guardians, that they can provide their teammates with new abilities. This suggests to me something that goes beyond City-of-Heroes-like buffs to attributes like damage or defense--it's possible to actually provide teammates with entirely new powers?

Two words:
Fastball Special

Technical Director

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This the complete list of

This the complete list of PLANNED Archetypes, rather than the at launch list. I'll edit the OP to clarify.

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Boy George = Gunner, Gunner,

Boy George = Gunner, Gunner, Hunter, Hunter, Partisaaaaaan. I love the role, I love the rooooole.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Two words:
Fastball Special

Petey and Logan at their best.

This is all great and very exciting. One criticism that really isn't a big deal.

While I LOVE the other graphics, and Notears stated he liked the icons, I feel the icons seem a little too busy, and not all of them are particularly evocative of their particular class.

Operator, for example. The Mastermind Icon in CoH had a large silhouette in the background and several smaller silhouettes in the foreground. Easy to interpret. But the Operator icon gives no visual clue as to it's function.

I know you don't want to just copy CoH, but in some cases less elaborate and more helpful icons would be better IMHO.

But, what do I know :P. And it's an exciting update!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Pyromantic wrote:
I had previously noticed the archetype page and read it. I must say it's nice to see things taking shape.
I'm assuming that the previous suggestions about which classifications and specifications will be ready for launch have not changed? If so, then not all of these will be available, presumably.
I took particular note of one aspect of the description for guardians, that they can provide their teammates with new abilities. This suggests to me something that goes beyond City-of-Heroes-like buffs to attributes like damage or defense--it's possible to actually provide teammates with entirely new powers?
Two words:
Fastball Special

Can I... can I worship you?

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Those icons are ... okay ...

Those icons are ... okay ... for big splashy web pages, but you're going to lose a lot when they get reduced down in size and all the details disappear. Might I recommend simplified versions of those icons that can fit into the space of a Power Icon (i.e. 52x52 pixels)?


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Those icons are ... okay ... for big splashy web pages, but you're going to lose a lot when they get reduced down in size and all the details disappear. Might I recommend simplified versions of those icons that can fit into the space of a Power Icon (i.e. 52x52 pixels)?

These are for the character selection and design. We have more license there.

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Aww, nuts! I was hoping for

Aww, nuts! I was hoping for a Defense/Control archetype, like a 'Density/Gravity Control Tanker', so I could jump into a crowd, suck them all towards me with some sort of 'gravity well' power, and then 'Wormhole' myself and all of my new friends back to the waiting team.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

I had previously noticed the archetype page and read it. I must say it's nice to see things taking shape.
I'm assuming that the previous suggestions about which classifications and specifications will be ready for launch have not changed? If so, then not all of these will be available, presumably.
I took particular note of one aspect of the description for guardians, that they can provide their teammates with new abilities. This suggests to me something that goes beyond City-of-Heroes-like buffs to attributes like damage or defense--it's possible to actually provide teammates with entirely new powers?

Player X giving player Y new and different abilities (including attacks) is something GW2 has. Frankly, I don't love it in GW2, because it takes away your other powers and requires people to learn other people's classes to the point where they know how eachother's powers work, which is more than I'd usually expect from a PUG teammate. That said, it might be fun to try to get SG mates into synergizing builds to leverage stuff like that in CoT, IDK.

In GW2, my Elementalist has several "Summon Magic Weapon" powers that cause me to conjure up, say, a Lightning Hammer for myself to wield, which replaces my usual 1-5 attacks with a set of new different Lightning Hammer attacks for like 2 min. The Summon Hammer power also throws down a second copy of the hammer on the ground (using telegraphed AoE to locate where it will appear) that someone else can pick up and use, which would then replace their 1-5 attacks with the hammer's. Powers like this have limited usefulness, I've found, but in some cases the content you're doing dictates the need for the different attacks. The Octovine raid, for example, has a part where powers with knockback effects are useful to have, so that one raid is where I use the Lightning Hammer. Otherwise, most people prefer their own powers and don't really want them usurped by the summoned weapon like that.

Now, if you could synergize effects with someone else in a way that DOESN'T take the other person's powers AWAY, but still offers new and different options, that might be awesome. Things like Oil Slicks being set on fire by fire attacks come to mind.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Just checked out the Facebook

Just checked out the Facebook page, and I'm out voted on the Icons, people seem to love em--which is good!

Some flack on FB for using classes, but that's nonsense. I played Champions and TSW, both of which are "classless", and classes still happen and delineated but flexible classes is FAR better.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Aww, nuts! I was hoping for a Defense/Control archetype, like a 'Density/Gravity Control Tanker', so I could jump into a crowd, suck them all towards me with some sort of 'gravity well' power, and then 'Wormhole' myself and all of my new friends back to the waiting team.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Dat's probably a centurion though...

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Aww, nuts! I was hoping for a Defense/Control archetype, like a 'Density/Gravity Control Tanker', so I could jump into a crowd, suck them all towards me with some sort of 'gravity well' power, and then 'Wormhole' myself and all of my new friends back to the waiting team.
Be Well!
Fireheart

You mean... a Centurion?

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This, admittedly ancient and

This, admittedly ancient and possibly out-of-date table: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart lists 'Offensive Mitigation', not 'Control' as the 'secondary' of Centurions. I've not seen, yet, any other break-out of what the sub-archetypes powersets are like.

If you have a new and improved 'Classification/Specification' list/table, I'd be Joyous to see it.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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It didn't take clever, it

It didn't take clever, it just took a habit of looking at what's behind the "What's New" button. Every so often I'd see the Archetypes page had been updated, and I'd go take a look.

BTW, the symbol for the "Commander" looks like a stylized Staff Sergeant's insignia, only upside down, or a CPO's insignia. Which makes a sort of sense, as any good commander relies on his NCOs or POs. ^_^

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

This, admittedly ancient and possibly out-of-date table: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart lists 'Offensive Mitigation', not 'Control' as the 'secondary' of Centurions. I've not seen, yet, any other break-out of what the sub-archetypes powersets are like.
If you have a new and improved 'Classification/Specification' list/table, I'd be Joyous to see it.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Control, as it is, frankly would be overpowering as a secondary or tertiary. So, there is a stripped down version developed, although the final name of it hasn't been set. That is what is labelled at various times "Offensive Mitigation" "Manipulation" "Control-ish" or such. In effect, it's Control w/ a few powers substituted, and without the "Nuke" or pets.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Two words:
Fastball Special

What about a Hairball Special?

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

This, admittedly ancient and possibly out-of-date table: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart lists 'Offensive Mitigation', not 'Control' as the 'secondary' of Centurions. I've not seen, yet, any other break-out of what the sub-archetypes powersets are like.
If you have a new and improved 'Classification/Specification' list/table, I'd be Joyous to see it.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Control, as it is, frankly would be overpowering as a secondary or tertiary. So, there is a stripped down version developed, although the final name of it hasn't been set. That is what is labelled at various times "Offensive Mitigation" "Manipulation" "Control-ish" or such. In effect, it's Control w/ a few powers substituted, and without the "Nuke" or pets.

Alright, I do see how a direct port of 'Ranged Control' to a melee-centric character would not work. I was thinking of a melee-range redesign of the control powers. If we're using 'Offensive Mitigation' and 'Manipulation' as a catch-alls for hybrid-type attack powers (like they were for Blasters), then I certainly look forward to seeing how that plays out!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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The icons certainly look

The icons certainly look pretty, though I agree they'll lose something in the minimalization. I'm sure you folks will do fine with that though.

Unfortunately, I really don't care for the archetype names. I don't see them being used in actual conversations about what role is needed in a group, but rather traditional standbys such as Tank, Blaster, Controller, and so on. (except by those players who like to be condescending and snide to others who don't "get with the program and use the correct terms"). Worse, there seems like potential for confusion with them as well. Outside of game context, "Commander" and "Operative" don't even closely resemble the roles they are associated with. Operative sounds much more like "Scrapper with a gun," and Commander implies leadership bonuses applied to your own side, not impairments applied to the opposition. If not a controller, that sounds more like a saboteur. Stalwart is ok, but when people want a tank, they're gonna ask for a tank. Enforcer sounds cool. That's actually ok as is, since scrapper often implied a lack of ranged capability. I like Enforcer better... though I'm not thrilled about Bodyguard unless it's intended to be the Enforcer version of a Tank. Guardian bugs me, possibly more then Operative and Commander, because the word just doesn't tie to any specific archtype in my head. Seems more like a "Hero in general" term, or a Tank subset maybe.

I'm not trying to say the game should just blatantly rip off the AT names used in CoH, but many of those names are also the standard jargon across MMOs in general. I think you can do better. Of course, in all fairness, I'm not a fan of ATs in the first place, so this topic will be more difficult to win me over on anyway.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

It didn't take clever, it just took a habit of looking at what's behind the "What's New" button. Every so often I'd see the Archetypes page had been updated, and I'd go take a look.
BTW, the symbol for the "Commander" looks like a stylized Staff Sergeant's insignia, only upside down, or a CPO's insignia. Which makes a sort of sense, as any good commander relies on his NCOs or POs. ^_^

As a retired military Commander in RL, I picked up on that last part right away too. Plus it didn't give me much of #troller vibe either if you know what I mean. Not a big enough deal to go to war over (get it?...military/war...aww forget it); more of a nitpick.

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

I took particular note of one aspect of the description for guardians, that they can provide their teammates with new abilities. This suggests to me something that goes beyond City-of-Heroes-like buffs to attributes like damage or defense--it's possible to actually provide teammates with entirely new powers?

I assumed that meant buffs. I didn't have super speed for instance until someone speed boosted me. I didn't have a protective defensive bubble around me until someone bubbled me.

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MWM: Given the fact that some

MWM: Given the fact that some of this information (even the fact that there will be classes at all, as per Empyrean re Facebook followers) is new to folks despite its having been announced before the Kickstarter campaign, maybe it would be useful to remind/inform everyone which subclasses will not be available at launch. Personally, I find that having more than 3 years to come to terms with the fact that I won't be able to play this game's direct analogue to our old Blaster (Hunter: Offence/Offence Mitigation) has helped me in a sort of 'time heals all wounds' sort of way. Assuming Hunters are still not planned for launch, that is.

Empyrean wrote:

One criticism that really isn't a big deal.
While I LOVE the other graphics, and Notears stated he liked the icons, I feel the icons seem a little too busy, and not all of them are particularly evocative of their particular class.

You think that's a minor criticism, Empy -- how's this for a nitpick? Hey, MWM, did you notice that in the text for the Enforcer you started both sentences with the word 'Although'?

All in all, I'm pleased to see that this part of the game hasn't changed since the beginning, and I really like the way the artwork is evocative of the old game without copying it directly.

I heard rumours this was an understudy update for the update that was planned for this week, and that the original update can be expected next week. Is this true?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Two words:
Fastball Special
Petey and Logan at their best.
This is all great and very exciting. One criticism that really isn't a big deal.
While I LOVE the other graphics, and Notears stated he liked the icons, I feel the icons seem a little too busy, and not all of them are particularly evocative of their particular class.
Operator, for example. The Mastermind Icon in CoH had a large silhouette in the background and several smaller silhouettes in the foreground. Easy to interpret. But the Operator icon gives no visual clue as to it's function.
I know you don't want to just copy CoH, but in some cases less elaborate and more helpful icons would be better IMHO.
But, what do I know :P. And it's an exciting update!

I'd almost suggest swapping Commander and Operator: the operator one has arrows constricting an x, evocative of holding back, whereas the Commander one is a high ranking army symbol (colonel?), evoking command over subordinates.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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Also the icons kinda remind

Also the icons kinda remind me of CoD...take that how you wish :p

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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I love the Guardian's quote.

I love the Guardian's quote. That is suitably epic.

The Operator's quote, however, is woefully inadequate. I like @notears suggestion of how about "Army of one" for the operator, even if it was the actual US Army's slogan from 2001 to 2006. If we change it just a little to "I am an army of one" then it's not exactly plagiarism is it?

I also find the Operator's Icon to be a meaningless jumble of shapes and color. At least the Guardian's logo has the semblance of a winged hug.

The crosshairs in the Ranger icon are too hard to see. Could you add a little contrast there?

I am with @Foradain and @Fire Away that using the rank insignia of an NCO, albeit a senior one, may not be the best way to show off the concept of "Commander". To me, it gives the impression of "soldier", which is probably not what you were trying for.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

...3 years to come to terms with the fact that I won't be able to play this game's direct analogue to our old Blaster (Hunter: Offence/Offence Mitigation) has helped me in a sort of 'time heals all wounds' sort of way.

Yeah. My old main, Empyrean, would be a true Bastion--but I figure we won't see those for a while :\.

Man, I miss him. He could do it all offensively and defensively. Fire tank with Energy Melee, Pyre Mastery and Pyronic. He even had some pretty serious -damage resistance debuffage when you stacked his tank innate with Melt Armor. Good bit of Disorient too from the Energy stuff.

Oh, how I miss running straight for the biggest baddie while lobbing Melt Armor target-based AOE followed by a jab to both aggro all surrounding mobs and get his damage resistance down, then popping Buildup AND Fiery Embrace and unloading a Total Focus/Energy Transfer combo. KABLOWIE! Big damage :).

Good times, good times.

Ah, so, something to look forward to :)...

PS- Crap. This post made me sad. I may need to go visit my version of him on Champions or DCUO just to let him know a new home is coming :P

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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This Ranger icon could use

This Ranger icon could use some tuning up. I agree that the iconography is not using helpful colors to create clarity of information. The reticle/rangefinder is just a mish-mash of stuff all competing for attention without conveying a useful mental image that is easily grasped.

=====

Just the very naming of the "Commander" group, and the subgroups therein, are ambiguous to the point of easy confusion with a Pet Herding class. If this is meant to be an analog to the Controller/Dominator in City of Titans, where the purpose of the class is status effects, debuffs and so on, you really need a different name (and iconography) than "Commander" for this so as to disambiguate it away from the Mastermind/Pet Herder. Personally, I would prefer the term "Manipulator" instead, since it is more evocative of what the class "does" than its placement in a heirarchy of "ranks" (or somesuch).

I'd also change to quote to instead be ... "You will fight on MY terms."

To be honest, I'd find symbology of a "swirling maelstrom" and/or "eye of the storm" imagery to be more useful/evocative for this class than a rank badge icon like you've got. Something more akin to imagery like this ...

... or this ...

... or in an even more simplified version, like this ...

... would seem more appropriate.

=====

Aside from the unfortunately similarity with movie X-Men iconography, this symbol does absolutely nothing evocative for me whatsoever in the context of a Pet Herding class. It is a meaningless shape with nice colors that does not imply One Among Many. The name of the class (Operator) also runs counter to my expectations, particularly with "Commander" already in use. I think you would have been better served with an iconography that begins with this kind of a design aesthetic ...

Or you could take the old Mastermind icon and replace the "man shapes" with stars to form a "tripod" of stars, with three small stars in a row at the bottom in front of a large star at the top in the rear, giving a sense of a rank formation being directed by someone in charge, with the front and back rank stars having different colors (silver versus gold, for example) to help define a foreground versus an overshadowing background.

In fact, I would actually argue that the purple Operator icon actually works better for the Ranger, since it's a clearer "focus on THIS" iconography set than the red crosshairs mess used for the Ranger right now that obscures more than it reveals. All you'd have to do is drop the "V" shape behind the purple roundel and you'd have a fine Ranger icon.

As for the quote ... "All for one and… you know the rest." ... that feels more like a joke than an inspiriation/aspiration. Alternatives such as "I am legion." as well as "I do not stand alone." would in my mind be more evocative of the spirit of the class.


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Re: some of the comments on

Re: some of the comments on the Operator quote -- Even just "I *am* an army" would maybe work even better. You avoid the "of one" tie into the Army slogan, and it still fits the bill. Short and sweet.

(insert pithy comment here)

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I've had problems with the

I've had problems with the commander/operator naming from the first time I heard it. The sub-classes aren't as bad.

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The refernce to new powers

The refernce to new powers under Guardians was not meant in the sense of replacing what your chaeacter can do (that could really mess with certain play styles), but rather meant to invoke buffs. Now we may have a Support power that can be cast on an ally that debuffs that's ally's targets, or adds an extra effect to the ally's powers - they are all considered "buffs".

With regards to the names of Commander and Operator, there are a couple of reasons for both. First, it was believed that the names of all ATs needed to be agnostic toward the type of character the player was going to play (hero or villain for example). Which meant avoided names too iconic of a heroic status or ones carrying ambiasmtoward negative connotation.

Manipulator was passed up in lue of Commander partly due to the first reason. The second was that we had two types of power sets at the time using the term Manipulation and the concern was over use of a similar term for both a type of power set and AT.

Operator again was partly due to the first reason. The second is that internally, we didn't classify the summons exactly as "pets". In that the Operator will be able to designate what their "pets"'can do unlike other pets. Some pets don't even come with any complex AI but can be stationary doing one or just a few things. To differentiate between which type of "pet" we were discussing, we began to use the term Operatives for the Operator "pets", and the name of the AT organically derived from that point.

And believe me, the concern over names some of you have, we have had. The names offered up have been considered. We've actually had multiple rounds of discussion on the subject to get where we are at to assuage those who had various concerns to where everyone involved was satisfied enough to move on.

Personally, I would've preferred the quote for Operetors to be "We fight as one", that just so happens to be the name of a certain megapower company with a miuse mascot for a certain show about a bunch of heroes going about some kind of avenging...


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Felpyre wrote:
Felpyre wrote:

I've had problems with the commander/operator naming from the first time I heard it. The sub-classes aren't as bad.

Me too.

One thing that helps us move to a better solution is this very announcement:

Quote:

Since man first became aware of superhuman beings sharing the world, they have given them various names: heroes, gods, titans. In the 21st century, everyone from mild-mannered reporters to governmental authorities have labeled them with various classifications based on their powers and combat styles.

With this in mind, we should take ourselves down the path of the the socialization and evolution of what it would have been called by the people of the world. So rather than Tannim222's description of the evolution amongst the developers based on the things being "operatives" and thus the character being an "operator", perhaps some other names would have evolved instead, such as:

  • Harbinger
  • Director
  • Overseer
  • Shepherd
  • Steward
  • Puppeteer
  • Honcho
  • Guru
  • Boss
  • Commandant
  • Taskmaster*
  • Ringleader*
  • Nucleus
  • Hive King/Queen
  • Minister
  • Captain
  • Employer
  • Executive
  • Caretaker
  • Skipper
  • BK (abbreviation of Big Kahuna)
  • Commander (yes, I know, but it is far more appropriate for this class than it is for the support class)
  • Caller
  • Webmaster
* denotes existing names for subclasses that could just as easily be applied to the Classification

I also have wondered at the applicability of "Engineer" for a subclass when we have the whole aesthetic decoupling concept. What demon summoner or ninja leader would call herself an "Engineer"?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

As for the quote ... "All for one and… you know the rest." ... that feels more like a joke than an inspiriation/aspiration. Alternatives such as "I am legion." as well as "I do not stand alone." would in my mind be more evocative of the spirit of the class.

"What army? This army."

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

As for the quote ... "All for one and… you know the rest." ... that feels more like a joke than an inspiriation/aspiration. Alternatives such as "I am legion." as well as "I do not stand alone." would in my mind be more evocative of the spirit of the class.

"What army? This army."

"I am the brute squad."

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Redlynne wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Aside from the unfortunately similarity with movie X-Men iconography, this symbol does absolutely nothing evocative for me whatsoever in the context of a Pet Herding class. It is a meaningless shape with nice colors that does not imply One Among Many. The name of the class (Operator) also runs counter to my expectations, particularly with "Commander" already in use. I think you would have been better served with an iconography that begins with this kind of a design aesthetic ...

I STRONGLY vote for this. Genius. Evokes the "one leading many" nature of the class without copying CoH. Top notch.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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These are generalized

These are generalized archetypes like melee, defense, control. In CoX terms, melee was then broken down to scrapper, stalker, brute. This is similar to that system whereas these archetypes or whatever u want to call them, might only be seen during character creation. In game, I assume, we will be seeing the sub-types icons next to names and not the general icons.

I have a couple complaint about the icons, which all look well done, is the 2 that have been mentioned in commander and operator not really illustrating it's meaning and the other being the enforcer icon looking not done and not melee looking (looks more like a shield)

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Okay so.. Doctor Tyche... I

Okay so.. Doctor Tyche... I have a question for you... is it at all possible for me to make a character based partially around throwing my team mates at people? Like someone who's around 35% or 40% based around throwing my team mates at people?

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Can I also fastball special

Can I also fastball special my pets?

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Also? Get a graphic designer

Also? Get a graphic designer to reupdate the icons.. none of them really pop for me... there's no colour theory to them.. like for instance? Replace the green on the controllers Icon with purple... I mean you see this? This is how you make icons pop out!! You take 2 opposing colours and you mash em up!!

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I think you guys need a

I think you guys need a graphic designer on your team. It's not enough that you have guys that know how to draw or sculpt in 3D, you need someone who can really pull an aesthetic together.

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Are you volunteering? Because

Are you volunteering? Because we are very cool with that, and the process is on the FAQ page.

--------------------------

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Are you volunteering? Because we are very cool with that, and the process is on the FAQ page.

Well no, I'm not really trying to volunteer for that... I mean I can't really draw that and well the only experience I have is a little over 50% on a design course I took in high school, so me as a graphic designer, would not be a good idea. What I am saying is that I think you should call attention to this in the volunteer forum, make an announcement that you are looking for couple of graphic designer. Get them to send their resumes to you, get someone with WAY more experience than me. I think that would really help make all the aesthetics on these menues really POP!!

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I am liking the way the

I am liking the way the Guardian sounds. Best icon as well.

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I have zero problems with the

I have zero problems with the current archetype icons. Getting everyone to agree on aesthetics based on their personal preferences on the other hand... G'luck.

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I sort of understand why you

I sort of understand why you want to avoid directly re-using the CoH names, but those AT names were already-existing words that described what the class did in very general terms. "Blasters" blast people, "Scrappers" get into scraps, "Tankers" tank, "Controllers" control people, and "Masterminds" sit back and let their minions do the work. That's what those words mean, even not in the context of CoH.

In contrast, most of the class names you've chosen bring to mind very specific images and ideas, which don't always line up with what you want the class to do (especially given that one of your goals is for the classes to be even more generalized than their CoH counterparts). For example:

"Gladiator" brings to mind specifically someone (probably a large bearded man) in Roman armor wielding a Roman sword, fighting for the entertainment of a crowd, not, say, someone with electric fists and a barrier of fire who is fending off an alien invasion or robbing a bank. (Even if Gladiator is no longer Melee/Defense, it's still a very specific image) It's nowhere near as general as Scrapper, Brute, or Stalker, which just express what they do (and not how they do it).

Similarly, over in the Blaster-analogues, the word "gunner" is very specifically "someone who operates or specializes in guns", and doesn't work as a general name. "Hunter", in turn, suggests a stealthy animal-related class (or Elmer Fudd hunting Bugs Bunny), rather than the pure offense Ranged/Manipulation class it is. (And if you're dead-set on not using other games' class names, it's also a WoW class) "Partisan's" main definition is "someone who advocates for something" which makes no sense at all in the context of "shoots people", but even its distant secondary definition of "a guerrilla fighter in WW2", while better as a class name, is, again, too specific a concept. Even "Ranger" itself brings to mind Aragorn from Lord of the Rings or a member of the US armed forces.

Meanwhile, over in the Mastermind-analogue, several subclasses have a weird mechanical theme that doesn't fit most ideas. "Operator" suggests someone who works with machinery (or helps you with phone calls), while "Engineer" suggests someone who builds machinery. They make sense for, say, Robotics/Traps, but no for Beast Mastery/Storm Summoning (or whatever you wind up calling the equivalent or similar powersets). "Taskmaster" is an interesting case, since I did a Google search for it, and the first twelve results were either about the Marvel character or a British game show, neither of which really suggests "Pets/Assault". I had to go pretty far down to find the "boss" definition (and "Taskmaster" specifically means a BAD boss, a slave-driver, not just a boss).

And I really don't like the Controller-analogue names at all (to the extent that it was the entire inspiration for this post, with most of the above added on as afterthoughts), several of which have a military theme that makes even less sense than the Operator's mechanical theme. "Commander" suggests someone who gives orders to a group, while "Brigadier" literally means "Someone who commands a brigade of soldiers". Director and Executor likewise have a leadership theme that doesn't fit the the whole "someone who freezes enemies in ice blocks or crushes them in gravitational fields" nature of the AT. The Control-set class names should suggest "crowd control" (if not outright "body control" or even "enslavement"), not "leadership". The "leadership" naming theme should be used for the Mastermind-equivalent instead. This also applies to the icon, which suggests "leadership".

(The Defender-esque class names are okay. I'm not a big fan of Warden - it brings to mind the person in charge of a prison, especially in the superhero genre - but they're workable)

I'll try to throw out some suggestions (and I'm assuming the class concepts are still the same as they were in that post from 2013), rather than just criticize:

"Fighter" instead of Gladiator for Melee/Defense. It's simple and straightforward, something which is sorely lacking in the class names right now, and extremely nonspecific.
For Control/Assault, "Puppeteer" instead of Brigadier, or possibly "Subjugator" if you want to keep the approximate connotations of "Dominator". "Tactician" instead of Director (because Control/Support is about tactics - controlling the battlefield and aiding allies rather than damaging enemies). Not sure what to do with Control/Ranged - maybe "Overlord", which still has the leadership connotation, but with the implication of being domineering.
Move "Commander" over to Pets/Support (instead of Engineer) and maybe "Brigadier" to Pets/Assault (instead of Taskmaster). Perhaps replace "Ringleader" with "Overseer" for Pets/Manipulation, which has less of a criminal connotation. Maybe go back to "Master" (or "Minion Master") for the overall AT? Or possibly "Honcho" (as in "Head Honcho") for the AT, but that's a bit slang-y.
Stalwart: Why re-invent the wheel here? Replace Centurion (again, a very specific image of a Roman army officer, and one that does not at all match Defense/Manipulation) with Stalwart, and make the overall AT just "Tank". (Not "Tanker", if you want to avoid using CoH names, just Tank)
Don't know what to do with Ranger and its subclasses. Offender? Blitzer? Aggressor? Eruptor? Nothing has the simple elegance of "Blaster".

I'm not sure what to do with all the others, since Controller, Scrapper, Mastermind, and especially Blaster were so perfectly on the nose it's difficult to come up with names that use completely different words but mean the same thing. (In fact, most games don't even try to think of other names: Marvel Heroes has Blasters and Scrappers, and even calls them "Archetypes"; DC Universe Online has Controllers and Tanks. Even Dungeons and Dragons has Brutes and Stalkers as 2e class kits, with Controller and Defender as 4e class roles)

Overall, I think the class names just need to be far, far less specific, since the intent is to make each class cover a wider variety of concepts than CoH ATs (which had very general names to begin with).

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Also? Get a graphic designer to reupdate the icons.. none of them really pop for me... there's no colour theory to them.. like for instance? Replace the green on the controllers Icon with purple... I mean you see this? This is how you make icons pop out!! You take 2 opposing colours and you mash em up!!

I think you missed that each archetype has its own color:
Stalwarts are blue, Guardians are green, Commanders are yellow, Enforcers are orange, Rangers are red and Operators are purple.

So mixing complementary colors in a single icon would be counter to that organization.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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May as well put my two cents

May as well put my two cents in:
I'm more or less fine with the design of all of them (though I agree that the Commander one FEELs like it should be the pet AT's icon, so the two should swap).
That said, however, it bothers me that the icons for Commander and Operator are primarily Green/Black respectively, when ALL of the other AT icons use a Grey/Silver base. It just makes these last two stick out like sore thumbs, IMO.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Getting everyone to agree on aesthetics based on their personal preferences on the other hand... G'luck.

True. Luckily they don't have to. We'll all express our opinions and pick everything to pieces ad nauseam, but in the end MWM will make the call :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Yeah could be worse. If they

Yeah could be worse. If they would have called the page "We Are Heroes (Villains) This Is What We Do: Archetypes" I probably would have had a conniption on the spot.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Getting everyone to agree on aesthetics based on their personal preferences on the other hand... G'luck.
True. Luckily they don't have to. We'll all express our opinions and pick everything to pieces ad nauseam, but in the end MWM will make the call :).

Agreed. But if I had my druthers, I'd make the Enforcer blue. Because they sound like they could be the CoT version of a blapper, and since I played a blapper and I like blue things... #adnauseam

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At first glance, it kind of

At first glance, it kind of seems like the "Commander" and "Operator" titles should be switched. What springs to mind immediately upon seeing/hearing "commander" is one who commands others. Operator - I can kind of see the meaning of it as someone who "directs others" if I squint REAL hard, but it's really obtuse.

I also question having names for each individual sub-class - all 18 of 'em. The problem is that it just ads another needless layer of complexity. People will ask "what type of Stalwart are you?", and you will respond "I'm a Bastion", and they will say "....okay...what type of BASTION are you - what are your powers? What exactly can you do?" I'd just stick to having a name for the core class - if people want to know what type of "x class" you are - people will just list their Primary and Secondary power set anyways.

The names I like for each class:

Stalwart: This name works for me, as could any of the sub-class names. Maybe something like "Aegis".

Ranger: My background with D&D brings a very specific image to my mind when I see this, but it works well enough on a descriptive level. Striker could work as well.

Enforcer: This works for me, as could Striker or something like "Brawler"

Guardian: Again - this works on a descriptive level.

Commander: As I mentioned above, for me this fits better with the pet class. For control-heavy classes Director fits I suppose. Maybe something like "Regulator" or "Manipulator" as well?

Operator: Commander is a better fit here I think, though Taskmaster could work as well.

As a side query - I don't know if this has been answered before somewhere, but is the reason we are not using generic terms like "Tank" "Blaster" "Controller" and the like due to the fear of legal ramifications (even though they are widely used in gaming, both video and tabletop)?

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

As a side query - I don't know if this has been answered before somewhere, but is the reason we are not using generic terms like "Tank" "Blaster" "Controller" and the like due to the fear of legal ramifications (even though they are widely used in gaming, both video and tabletop)?

More because we don't want people to immediately limit their thinking to the old game, and its limits. Enforcer is able to do all three of Scrapper, Brute and Stalker, depending on how you build it. Ranger can be a Blaster or a Corruptor. And so on.

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I agree that these class

I agree that these class names are... well, just ridiculous. I've thought that the struggle to rename the classes was silly from the start.

Too many of the new terms are already associated with specific memes (nobody is ever going to say 'Ranger' without thinking 'Aragorn', or the Army corps). Worse, the new terms simply don't Evoke the classes. I do not believe the community is going to know what any of the new terms mean, no matter how much MWM harps on them. You can re-label them, but people will continue to use the old terms, because they Work.

My advice is to give up on the whole 'must be different' concern and just call the thing a thing.

A Stalwart is a sort of Tanker, and not a overall class or job description.

A Ranger is a sort of Blaster with a pet. A Gunner... operates a gun, usually from a fixed position.

An Enforcer is a thug who works for a criminal group, unless you preface it with 'Law'. You could side-step 'Scrapper', here, but only by calling them a 'Fighter'.

A Guardian... okay, that works in the place of Defender, but you want 'Warder', not 'Warden'. Yes, yes, I know, I study language and I'm aware of the ancient use of the term 'Warden', but it Meant 'Warder'. I have no idea what made you think 'Vindicator' was a good choice. Vindicators only show up after everyone is dead/defeated.

A Controller, is a Controller, is a Controller. You even say so in your definition. The power that a Controller uses is a 'control', not a 'command', not a 'direction', and certainly not an 'execution'.

An Operator controls complex machinery. Sometimes the machinery is not so complex, like a gate-operator. What you want, here, is a Summoner, or a Commander, perhaps a Director. A mastermind by any other name may lead their subordinates, but there's no way they can completely control them.

Just give up on trying to re-name a hammer and call it a Hammer!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I'm starting to think that

I'm starting to think that some really unconventional names would be pretty cool.

So I was trying to evolve a name for the enforcer, and I started with "Brawler" like Interdictor said above, then I moved on to Melee Enthusiast, and then just Enthusiast. Now that's a crazy name that doesn't have any real obvious connection to the playstyle, but as a name it's not bad and it is unique enough to work. Odd names like this work great in the Lore and help with immersion.

Next the Stalwart. I think about what people on the street would call them. Historically these guys would have been "The Shield" long before anyone had invented armored tanks in the 20th century. Bloodless, or the Bloody Wall, or maybe the Last Line or the First Line. But I keep coming back to something natural that stands up to all mother nature and man can throw at it, and I came up with Bulwark, and Breakwater. (yes I know Bulwark is already listed as a subclass) With images of violent storm surf crashing upon it, covering it in ice and trying its damndest to get past to the boats sitting comfortably in harbor. Breakwater would be an historic and appropriate name for what we know in MMO parlance as a tank. Either would be good, but I kind of like how out of left field Breakwater is.

I was thinking about Masters. I refuse to call them operators because that is just a very poor name. Master is used in the classifications and specifications table, so I'll use that by default instead. I was thinking that in history, the type of person who would be a Master would most likely be forces of destruction rather than forces of good. And I figured people would see them two different ways. People would either see them first, and be caught by surprise by the minions, or people would face the minions first and would only see the master for the final hopeless defeat. In either case, I could see a name like Omen being applied to these characters. Such that their appearance is an omen of my own defeat.

Then I got to thinking about the Mitigation Control classification. Again, Commander is just not working for me here. I understand why MWM went with a leadership motif, but that just gets confusing when we know there's a mastermind classification. Rather I see this classification as more of a facilitator, a provider of banes and boons. This person brings either a headwind or a tailwind, good luck or bad, blessings or curses, positive or negative, black or white. Heads or tails, people who run into him don't know what they're going to get until they get it, like the flip of a coin. So these guys should be called Coins.

When I think about how Guardians would be viewed throughout history, I think about the aftermath of destruction, where the need for relief would be most great. These angels of mercy would soothe the stricken, comfort the weary and feed the hungry. They would fly into danger and protect people until they could escape, heal the wounded and energize the exhausted. They would be viewed as angels by the average person. So I think it would be natural for them to be called Angel by the people. (yes I am aware that angels are a Judeo-Christian concept, but Titan City is New England and I think it would not be inappropriate from an historical perspective.)

Last for no reason other than I thought about the others first, is the Ranger. These guys bring death from afar. If you can see them, that means they can see you... and take you out. The stories that would be told by bards and minstrals in inns and bars would be the most amazing feats of long distance firepower, almost as if the hands of God were striking people down. And if one were to miss, the collateral damge could be devastating to innocent people just trying to hide behind flimsy walls and windows. So the surprising, arbitrary, and unavoidable nature of these powers lead people to call them Fates. Because when you run across one, it is up to Fate alone whether you will survive.

TLDR: I think quirky names for the classifications/specifications that are less technically-descriptive and more historically colorful would go a long way towards fostering a unique vibe for City of Titans and help create more of a sense of immersion. In the 20 minutes it took me to think this up I came up with these names, in the order provided by the announcement:
Breakwater
Enthusiast
Fate
Angel
Coin
Omen

By no means do I think the names should be changed to these six, but as an exercise I think it has value.
I think these would be more likely names given to the archetypes after history has had its way with them.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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You can call me anything you

You can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Instead of Operator how about

Instead of Operator how about Alphas. Alpha denotes leader as in the alpha dog of a pack and its a strong name that evokes imagery of a strong powerful individual who others would follow instinctively. Just my two cents for what its worth.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

I also question having names for each individual sub-class - all 18 of 'em. The problem is that it just ads another needless layer of complexity. People will ask "what type of Stalwart are you?", and you will respond "I'm a Bastion", and they will say "....okay...what type of BASTION are you - what are your powers? What exactly can you do?" I'd just stick to having a name for the core class - if people want to know what type of "x class" you are - people will just list their Primary and Secondary power set anyways.

To be honest, giving a name to every "flavor" of possible combination seems like overkill. Just looking at the the newly laid out page in the Guides, I can already feel myself discarding the subclass info.

Interdictor wrote:

The names I like for each class:
Stalwart: This name works for me, as could any of the sub-class names.
Ranger: My background with D&D brings a very specific image to my mind when I see this, but it works well enough on a descriptive level. Striker could work as well.
Enforcer: This works for me, as could Striker or something like "Brawler"
Guardian: Again - this works on a descriptive level.
Commander: As I mentioned above, for me this fits better with the pet class. For control-heavy classes Director fits I suppose. Maybe something like "Regulator" as well?
Operator: Commander is a better fit here I think, though Taskmaster could work as well.

Yeah, there are some names that I'd want to see get another wash through the debate before they get put into stone, because some of these are just really not that satisfying.

Currently: Stalwart
Preference: Stalwart

Currently: Ranger
Preference: Enforcer

Currently: Enforcer
Preference: Bruiser

Currently: Guardian
Preference: Guardian

Currently: Commander
Preference: Equalizer

Currently: Operator
Preference: Executive

Note that one of the expectations to live up to in City of Titans is the widely revered Scrapperlock ... and "Enforcer" just isn't a term that easily lends itself to that terminology. Try it. Enforcerlock. Say it out loud. Enforcerlock.

I don't know about anyone else, but Enforcerlock just doesn't sound right to me in the way that Scrapperlock does. Scrapperlock just rolls off the tongue and is immediately evocative of an image of One Against Many. Enforcerlock doesn't do that for me ... probably because of the syllable cadence. Enforcerlock is 4 syllables while Scrapperlock is only 3 syllables to say.

Likewise, nobody ever talked about Brutelock, and it doesn't roll off the tongue like Scrapperlock does. I suspect that's because Brutelock is only 2 syllables to Scrapperlock's 3 syllables.

But Bruiserlock? That's 3 syllables ... and it rolls off the tongue just about as readily as Scrapperlock does.

Meanwhile, Enforcer makes a much better name for a Blaster analog, in my mind, because it doesn't pigeonhole the archetype into being about guns, soldiers or resistance fighters.

=====

To be honest, I'd prefer to have just the "capstones" of the Primaries have names and then annotate the Secondary Classifications as being two letter codes rather than with different names done up like so:

OM: Offense Melee
OR: Offense Ranged
OA: Offense Assault
MM: Mitigation Manipulation
MS: Mitigation Support
MD: Mitigation Defense

That way you can "at a glance" get a fair approximation of the types of capabilities a character can have just from the name of their Primary and the code for their Secondary so as to be able to easily reference what "flavor" of Secondary is getting blended with the Primary.

So using such a naming scheme and referencing the now 3+ years old chart and using my proposed (re)naming scheme, you wind up with the following:

Blaster = Enforcer MM
Corruptor = Enforcer MS
Controller = Equalizer MS
Dominator = Equalizer OR
Defender = Guardian OR
Mastermind = Executive MS
Scrapper = Bruiser MD
Stalker = Bruiser MD
Brute = Bruiser MD
Tanker = Stalwart OM

... yeah, I guess that looks less than satisfactory. Hmm. What if we just take the names from the Primaries on the chart and match them up to be the same thing on the Secondaries and write them up like so ...

Blaster = Enforcer / Manipulator
Corruptor = Enforcer / Guardian
Controller = Equalizer / Guardian
Dominator = Equalizer / Assault
Defender = Guardian / Enforcer
Mastermind = Executive / Guardian
Scrapper = Bruiser / Stalwart
Stalker = Bruiser / Stalwart
Brute = Bruiser / Stalwart
Tanker = Stalwart / Bruiser

Hmmm ... yeah, that's less than satisfactory too. That just gets too confusing in a hurry, especially if you're not familiar with the terminology and what it means (let alone why).


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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I do like Huckleberry's

I do like Huckleberry's latest approach, to find new role names that are thought provoking. "Breakwater" - that's epic. I find "Stalwart" implies too much personality, but I also know that's my own feelings. for the next one, I imagine "Once more into the Breach". Making a beachhead. Tough and proactive. Guardian... it seems to be a jack of all trades, and heroic, I'm not sure what the CoH analogue would be. Defenders did not deal out a lot of damage. But if it's meant to be related to Defender then perhaps a Shelter. Ranger - it's hard to argue with that, they use range. It brings to mind Tolkien's ranger and national parks, perhaps more of a protector, but it's still very practical. Forces of nature don't target things (perhaps evolution, by accident?) so I don't have a better alternative. "Natural Selector" would be goofy.

Commander and Operator don't work for me, both sound military. Yes, that's just me. Going with forces of nature for the Controller... weather changes the mood of things. Perhaps "Bellwether". ("pug looking for bell" - has a ring to it). Tempo. I can't choose between those. The Operator is a guide of others. I agree we should avoid heroic/villain overtones, and guide has heroic connotations. So again with the unaligned forces of nature, where one thing leads to many... tornado? Nope, too much like a specific player attack. Catalyst? Not distinct from the controller. Plague? Heh... no. The name for a group of tornadoes is an "Outbreak". Maybe not the best but I can't resist the homage. Although it is dissonant with the other terms.

Breakwater
Breach
? (Ranger)
Shelter
Bellwether / Tempo
Outbreak

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

And believe me, the concern over names some of you have, we have had. The names offered up have been considered. We've actually had multiple rounds of discussion on the subject to get where we are at to assuage those who had various concerns to where everyone involved was satisfied enough to move on.

So are you trying to say that the names, icons, descriptions and quotes are final? It seems that most of the responses around here are focusing on what could or should be changed.

Edit: After further investigation the Kickstarter post from three years ago (chart form) use the exact same names for archetypes and subclasses. The only change was Master-->Operator. Has there been any further discussion or brainstorming on the naming scheme between then and now?

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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:

I do like Huckleberry's latest approach, to find new role names that are thought provoking. "Breakwater" - that's epic.

It is a good exercise and a step in a slightly different direction. In a slightly lateral thought progression I saw Breakwater and thought "water break" before I thought about an actual breakwater.
I do like the Breach idea. I'd extend it to Breacher as that is a little more action oriented.

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I hope something I can mess

I hope something I can mess with is coming soon... I don't mind waiting over three years but website updates and seeing icons like this make me absolutely giddy. Also I approve of all said icons. haha

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

And believe me, the concern over names some of you have, we have had. The names offered up have been considered. We've actually had multiple rounds of discussion on the subject to get where we are at to assuage those who had various concerns to where everyone involved was satisfied enough to move on.

So are you trying to say that the names, icons, descriptions and quotes are final? It seems that most of the responses around here are focusing on what could or should be changed.

That was my impression. They've certainly been the names of the classifications since 2013/14, so I'd be surprised if they suddenly changed now. I note that MWM didn't ask for our approval, so I'm assuming they already hashed this out internally. I think we'll all get used to the names as we play the game.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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If the early naming

If the early naming convention has managed to be ideal all along then I'll be happy with almost all of it.

But hopefully they can at least swap the Commander and Operator descriptions around. A commander commands its own troops, not someone else's. Unless it's "Commandeer". A smooth Operator is manipulating others. Right now it looks like it's just a formatting error of the page. The color of the logos are similar to Controller and Mastermind, only reversing the capabilities. The other logo colors are more direct descendants. Mind control has a long affiliation in comics with purple.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I note that MWM didn't ask for our approval, so I'm assuming they already hashed this out internally. I think we'll all get used to the names as we play the game.

That has never stopped anyone around here from trying to solve problems that weren't stated as such. :/
The original naming scheme from 2013 looked kinda placeholderish, but it was used to explain the archetype - subclass setup. The only time it is too late to change something is after it ships.
I do not know what the power sets are like or what will be available to the subclasses, but a few of those names are evocative of other archetypes (Bodyguard seems like a Stalwart thing), feel a little too suggestive of a character concept (Brigadier, especially with that archetype icon), or are just kinda confusing (Partisan).

Edit: Also there is a little blurb at the very bottom of the KS post >> Also, all names are preliminary and are subject to change before launch

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

It is a good exercise and a step in a slightly different direction. In a slightly lateral thought progression I saw Breakwater and thought "water break" before I thought about an actual breakwater.

OMG >blushes< I guess that's why we socialize our ideas!


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I think quirky names for the classifications/specifications that are less technically-descriptive and more historically colorful would go a long way towards fostering a unique vibe for City of Titans and help create more of a sense of immersion.

While I agree this cold be cool for most games, considering CoT's attempts to remain as lore or origin "agnostic" with most of it's other character attributes I'm not sure this is the best route to go. I think the class names should be more on the functional/descriptive side.

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I have... Mixed feelings

I have... Mixed feelings about the alternative names suggested above. Breakwater sounds like something really cool, but I think that's because it evokes for me a sense of defense and containment. Since a breakwater is designed to defend a harbor or port from the more violent forces of the ocean, that makes sense. But that's the thing: while more based names or cool, I would still want to see names that gave a sense of what they do, you know? Breakwater gives double meaning with this game, since Hurricane Atlas was a devastating event in the history of titan city and no doubt the breakwater was vital to preventing at least some of the damage. If all the archetypes could be like that that would rock, but that might be a big ask.

I echo the notion that commander and operator should be swapped.

Name: Safehouse
Magical Ranger - Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Invulnerability
Tertiary: Super Strength
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.

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Meh, the names are fine.

Meh, the names are fine.

The criticisms and suggestions in this thread are all valid, at least from certain perspectives. But I do not envy MWM for having to come up with so many intentionally distinct names--whether that was really necessary or not--and they did a good job. If you look on Facebook and Massively Overpowered, many people love the names and icons.

And how big of a deal is it anyway? Your character will be your character. These names are no more than placeholders for the type of chassis you're going to use to build your character.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter or that discussing and trying to improve it isn't worth doing, I'm just saying that if these are going to be the names, even if you hate them, what could that be other than annoyance--if you even bother to expend the energy to get worked up enough to be annoyed :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Meh, the names are fine.
The criticisms and suggestions in this thread are all valid, at least from certain perspectives. But I do not envy MWM for having to come up with so many intentionally distinct names--whether that was really necessary or not--and they did a good job. If you look on Facebook and Massively Overpowered, many people love the names and icons.
And how big of a deal is it anyway? Your character will be your character. These names are no more than placeholders for the type of chassis you're going to use to build your character.
I'm not saying it doesn't matter or that discussing and trying to improve it isn't worth doing, I'm just saying that if these are going to be the names, even if you hate them, what could that be other than annoyance--if you even bother to expend the energy to get worked up enough to be annoyed :P.

Yeah. Personally, my only gripe has been feeling that commander and operator are switched, but I haven't had any problems with the archetype names otherwise. The lore based names are cool, imho, but I don't think they're necessary.

Honestly, at this point, I'm just eager to make my enforcer and get into the game! I'm restless!

Name: Safehouse
Magical Ranger - Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Invulnerability
Tertiary: Super Strength
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.

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Safehouse wrote:
Safehouse wrote:

Honestly, at this point, I'm just eager to make my enforcer and get into the game! I'm restless!

Word.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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"The __________ is a master

"The __________ is a master of strategically limiting the options of the opposition. He can deny them movement, opportunities to attack, avenues of defense, and even control of their own bodies and minds."

"Superhuman beings able to generate or summon allies at will are classified as __________, living embodiments of the principle of ‘strength in numbers’. Whether skilled, magical or technological, they are all obedient and powerful."

If those two descriptions are displayed with "Operator" and "Commander" as potential names, and I was asked to choose which went where, I'd put "Commander" in the latter space without hesitation.

Earlier I saw the comment to the effect that "Operator" brought to mind a person at a switchboard placing your call. Maybe it's because I've been reading Drake's RCN series, but that in turn made me think of Signals Officer Mundy, who regularly denied the enemy opportunities to attack...

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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I feel that, if the names don

I feel that, if the names don't Fit, then the community won't use them.

I also feel that part of the Problem we're having is a lack of definition. How can we name something, if we don't know what it is?

Be Well!
Fireheart

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This has taken a decidedly

This has taken a decidedly strong left-hand turn from "What We Can Do".

(insert pithy comment here)

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

While I agree this cold be cool for most games, considering CoT's attempts to remain as lore or origin "agnostic" with most of it's other character attributes I'm not sure this is the best route to go. I think the class names should be more on the functional/descriptive side.

I think this is a very valid point. I guess the question will be a paraphrase of Darth Vader with regards to CoT: How strong will be the Lore with this game?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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So I just thought if

So I just thought if something... do the names and icons matter all that much? I mean if we revise them the devs might give up precious time, which is a resource they don't have a lot of to begin with, they could use to work on gameplay!! The devs as far as I know still don't have a paycheck right now, they can't do this as a job!!! They need all the time they can get right now!!! I think this whole thing is going too far... the names and icons are good enough for now...

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Simple changes, like swapping

Simple changes, like swapping Commander and Operator, is trivial. Redoing, that's a bit more time consuming.

Technical Director

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Ok, he is my unsolicited

Ok, here is my unsolicited brainstorming on the naming scheme for Archetypes and Specialization subtypes. I do not know anything about the powersets or MWM's explicit intent for the Specialization, so I made a few assumptions based on what I believed to be the functionality of the secondary powerset pairings with the primary. The names needed to be somewhat generic so they can be applied to both sides without being too judgmental or limiting.
Feel free to use any of this.

[ARCHETYPE]
-[SPECIALIZATION]
-[SPECIALIZATION]
-[SPECIALIZATION]

[ENFORCER] >> Enforcer
-[STRIKER] (melee + off/mit) >> Bruiser
-[BODYGUARD] (melee + support) >> Riotguard, Phalanx, Battlemaster
-[GLADIATOR] (melee + defense) >> Gladiator, Striker, Breacher

Enforcer feels like it would fit the archetype to me. One who specializes in the art of laying a beat down (a manipulation secondary) sounds like a Bruiser to me, plus you get to inherit the -lock mentality. A support secondary feels like you would be working in conjunction with others to function optimally. A Phalanx or Riotguard functions as a mutually supportive unit to achieve victory. A Battlemaster feels like a combatant that is above average in most aspects and deficient in none. Now a melee character that employs defense as a tactic uses it to achieve a goal or because they operate independently. A Gladiator has to use defense to survive long enough defeat an enemy. A Breacher evokes a sense of surviving long enough to break the enemy's defense or strategy.

[RANGER] >> Projector, Ranger
-[HUNTER] (ranged + off/mit) >> Hunter, Ambusher
-[PARTISAN] (ranged + support) >> Legionnaire
-[GUNNER] (ranged + defense) >> Annihilator, Marauder, Predator, Raider

A ranged character projects damage, hence Projector, but it starts to hedge slightly into Champions territory. The Marauder/Raider names might be a little evocative of pirates, but they function somewhat loosely because they do not rely on anyone else (aka, ranged + defense). There is almost no way Predator will survive on this list due to the association with the franchise, but it was included for what the name implies (ruthlessly exploiting prey). Legionnaire as a support (or augment) character might function better in groups, like a legion...

[MASTER] >> Summoner, Collaborator, Mobilizer, Recruiter, Musterer, Fabricator
-[TASKMASTER] (pet + assault) >> Leader, Pathfinder
-[RINGLEADER] (pet + off/mit) >> Architect, Overseer
-[ENGINEER] (pet + support) >> Implementor, Strategist

A pet class doesn't just have minions lying around. They find minions, they create minions or they bind subjects to their will (hence the variations in archetype names). A secondary powerset of assault seems to imply that your character is actively involved in the fight with your minions. You are in it hip deep with your minions, leading from the front. Who does that? A Leader does, a Pathfinder does. I imagine the manipulation aspect of a secondary powerset for a pet class would be something that augments your minions to perform beyond specification. An Architect is a character that designs your doom. An Overseer is a character that manages everything through minions, they are a natural extension of one's will. A support secondary evokes a sense of adapting to events as they happen, the plan never fully survives contact with the enemy. A strategist makes the plan, but allows for contingencies.

[COMMANDER] >> Ascendant
-[EXECUTOR] (ctrl + ranged) >> Executor
-[BRIGADIER] (ctrl + assault) >> Dominator
-[DIRECTOR] (ctrl + support) >> Proclamator, Declarant, Controller

The problem I have with Commander, Brigadier & Director is that they imply that there is a hierarchy of personnel beneath you to take action based on your directives. Now unless all of these characters are mind controllers, no opponent is going to acquiesce to your requests to lie down and submit to defeat. In essence this archetype is built on control variants. Your character is at the pinnacle, the top of the heap, you enact the kill chain. The Executor name seems fitting. A Dominator is a dominator is a dominator. Sometimes being different for the sake of being different doesn't make sense. Just call it a Dominator. You could just as easily just plug 'Controller' back into the matrix and it would not feel out of place. There is some room for variation though, so Proclamator/Declarant were offered as an option for a character that sees the world being ordered in a certain way or imposes their will because that is the only way things make sense.

[STALWART] >> Stalwart
-[BULWARK] (def + melee) >> Bulwark
-[BASTION] (def + assault) >> Interdictor, Bastion
-[CENTURION] (def + off/mit) >> Centrurion, Defiant

Overall I like the Stalwart archetype & specializations. I hesitate with 'Bastion' since the name was familiar from the previous game. In a general sense I like Bastion as a name though.

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Keep in mind as well that

Keep in mind as well that Masteries will further change each of the archetypes, making rather unique playstyles

Technical Director

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Simple changes, like swapping Commander and Operator, is trivial. Redoing, that's a bit more time consuming.

Alright cool, Realy would appreciate that if you did atleast that :] All this other stuff is going to get in the way of more important stuff like, that fastball special you where talking about earlier for example

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Keep in mind as well that Masteries will further change each of the archetypes, making rather unique playstyles

Alright alright... so Doctor Tyche I have a question... since you said it might be possible to throw my team mate at someone... is it possible that I can throw and enemy at another enemy?

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Keep in mind as well that Masteries will further change each of the archetypes, making rather unique playstyles

I assume that would be the case seeing as how there are a fair number of holes in the archetype-specification matrix. Given the information at hand, I am not ecstatic with about 50% of the naming structure.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Keep in mind as well that Masteries will further change each of the archetypes, making rather unique playstyles
Alright alright... so Doctor Tyche I have a question... since you said it might be possible to throw my team mate at someone... is it possible that I can throw and enemy at another enemy?

The fast ball special was a bit tongue-in-cheek fun way of saying there will be certain powers which grant new abilities to a group member.

When it comes to throwing around enemies, well possible but we have a TON to do in order to get to it looks more yes than no. Firet we'd have a to have a system for throwing other stuff at enemies. One that doesn't use attribute scores. Not that we haven't thought about it...

But the topic at hand, what i meant earlier about the discussions our team has had wasn't meant to say everything is final, only that everything being said here is eerily similar right down to practical word for word. We've been at it a long time. I've counted 3 rounds of discussions which occurred after the initial chart was made. Which means there were multiple rounds of talks just to get to that point.

There's no harm is you all continuing to discuss, something may come of it that's useful or hasn't been said.


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Or:

Or:
"We need an Army?? 'laughs' i *AM* an Army!"

On the edge of your Perceptions......
Turn away and feel his hand upon your shoulder.....
Look for him and he shall not exist.....
in the middle of the crowd....lost in the faces....
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

But the topic at hand, what i meant earlier about the discussions our team has had wasn't meant to say everything is final, only that everything being said here is eerily similar right down to practical word for word. We've been at it a long time. I've counted 3 rounds of discussions which occurred after the initial chart was made. Which means there were multiple rounds of talks just to get to that point.
There's no harm is you all continuing to discuss, something may come of it that's useful or hasn't been said.

I get it and I don't want to make it sound like the decisions & compromises being made internally are flawed. The people on the other side of the wall have a much clearer picture of the landscape. There are probably other considerations in play that paint you into a corner (trademarking, merchandising, more lawyery stuff).

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

notears wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Keep in mind as well that Masteries will further change each of the archetypes, making rather unique playstyles
Alright alright... so Doctor Tyche I have a question... since you said it might be possible to throw my team mate at someone... is it possible that I can throw and enemy at another enemy?
The fast ball special was a bit tongue-in-cheek fun way of saying there will be certain powers which grant new abilities to a group member.
When it comes to throwing around enemies, well possible but we have a TON to do in order to get to it looks more yes than no. Firet we'd have a to have a system for throwing other stuff at enemies. One that doesn't use attribute scores. Not that we haven't thought about it...
But the topic at hand, what i meant earlier about the discussions our team has had wasn't meant to say everything is final, only that everything being said here is eerily similar right down to practical word for word. We've been at it a long time. I've counted 3 rounds of discussions which occurred after the initial chart was made. Which means there were multiple rounds of talks just to get to that point.
There's no harm is you all continuing to discuss, something may come of it that's useful or hasn't been said.

Alright, got it :]

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If it's not too late to

If it's not too late to change the class names, I think Centurion is too specifically Roman-sounding as compared to the other two. I'm not sure what else to call them without knowing what their powers sets are going to play like, but I definitely hope it's not "You wield a gladius and you command a regiment of 100 Roman soldiers".

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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