Discuss: This was not easy. And it's not finished.

196 posts / 0 new
Last post
Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Actually have a panel planned already for just that stuff, i.e. lighting, background, pose, and anything else that applies to the environment.

Great! Lighting was a problem, sometimes, in the CoH CC. If the character was particularly Tall, or Short, they could be lost in shadows.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Greyhawk
Greyhawk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 months 58 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/03/2015 - 19:17
Very, very nice! Exciting to

Very, very nice! Exciting to see things finally coming together!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
Just watched the video again.

Just watched the video again. Still awesome. Shared it with some friends I hope to talk into joining me upon release of CoT (Circle of Thorns? lol...)

Wish there was a "like" function on this board. Lots of cool posts here. But it's not important enough to take time away from the game tasks. :D

avelworldcreator wrote:

Limits on character appearance I'm not sure about yet. I'm not adverse to the weirdness if it doesn't create technical problems or reduce playability.

Now that's the kind of comment which gladdens my heart. There is no "shouldn't" in your thought process...if it can work on a technical level, you've got no problem with it.

Reminds me of why CoH kept me so engaged. "Options". I could log in with an urge to just destroy things and see orange numbers flying all over the place (farm toon) or with an urge to plot every move carefully while in constant peril (blaster taking on Carnies). It was glorious. That was two entirely different games just for those two characters alone. Hard to get bored when you can be a Tanker for an hour and then play a Defender for an hour.

Lothic wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote: Even if they have to cut it back so that the arm range is only like 1 foot to 5 feet that'll still be a pretty huge range for that slider and it's still a heck of a lot more variability than we had in CoH. ;)

Agreed.

whiteperegrine wrote:

If I had one request, which would obviously implemented later I assume, please include some kind of reference for the height of the character. the height bar's could be transparent or solid (behind the character like a suspect line-up wall). it would be a nice addition versus having to guess at the relative height of a character when making them. just a thought.

Not a bad idea. Might prevent buyer's remorse as you get out into the world with a new character and it's not quite what you thought it would be.

Empyrean wrote:

SavageFist wrote: Also, on second watch, I thought of a question that I don't think I've seen here, though it has been brought up on other threads--how will the "scale" slider interact with indoor areas and spaces, and thresholds?Just to make sure I'm being clear, how will someone at very large scale fit into/through thresholds and indoor areas that are too small for them, ie., designed for normal human proportions?Will you just limit the scale so that this doesn't get too bad, or is there a method in mind to deal with very large scaled heroes in indoor spaces or passing through thresholds?

I would assume it would be like in CoH were it didn't matter how tall or short a character was, they still fit through the same spaces. It probably would look weird if your head is buried in the ceiling all the time though.

Cyclops wrote:

THANK YOU! This is a very welcome update!
Looking at the sliders, we are going to have some very interesting heroes. With the max length arms the animators will need to add a new gibbon like running style with the arms held over the head...

That's hilarious!

islandtrevor72 wrote:

Now with character creators getting more elaborate and powerful you are seeing a whole new breed of player created abominations that are so far removed from the aesthetic of the game that they actually have an influence on my enjoyment of the game. Please understand I don't mean that they ruin my enjoyment....they just lessen it somewhat.
Here are a few examples of what I mean.

I kinda like those characters. lol... I love variety.

As others said, a player who makes a character solely for "yucks" probably isn't going to play that character very much.

I made one called "Bad Costume Guy" who was so clueless about making his costume that its hideousness turned his enemies into stone. (guess the power set!) I didn't play that character as often as my "serious" characters, but he was perfectly viable and very helpful to teams.

Seahawk25 wrote:

First of all an amazing job from all of you guys, what you have created is truly amazing.
Secondly, I don't think that setting limits simply because the character doesn't look nice would be the right decision to make if you want a fully enjoyable, customisable game.
Whether or not a person wants to create a hideous beast or a normal looking character if surly their choice, and would thusly be for their enjoyment.
Customisation is designed for the benefit and fun of all players joining the game. Surely whether or not the so called 'troll' character is right, is up to the player.
Additionally any troll players who create these characters only because they look funny won't be playing the game that often anyway, and even if they decide to really get into the game and still like the way that their character looks than that is the way they have decided to enjoy themselves. I don't think we should set limits on others just because of our personal preferences.

Agreed.

It's one of those difficult things to put a value upon. What is "too weird" and who gets to decide what that is? I would certainly not be happy if a character I made irritates someone in the game, but I would be FAR less happy if I was prevented from making that character because someone else decided I shouldn't.

At that point, I would wonder why that other person can't allow me to have my fun since it's not a "real" detriment to their gameplay. "Being irritated" is not a good basis for restriction of options imo. Almost anything you do will irritate SOMEONE.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Creating the model with all the extreme potential you've seen here was hard and had to be done now if we wanted to have them. Restricting those sliders, on the other hand, is easy and can be done at any time. If your concerns prove valid IslandTrevor (and I believe I do understand what they are), we can always act. But because so many players like it, we're going to be waiting until they do prove valid first. But we'll always be able to do something about it, so don't worry too much. Even while trying to allow for all sorts of goofiness, there is still a point of good taste past which we don't want to cross, and we'll be watching for that as well as we test.

Again just to be absolutely clear I'm probably closer to islandtrevor72 on this than what other people have said so far. I would favor "reasonable conservatism" in the slider extremes overall. As you pointed out you have put the effort into creating sliders that are fairly extreme and with that it would now be relatively easy to scale them back as necessary.
If there was a way to numerically rate the overall flexibility of the slider system between what CoH had and what CoT looks to offer I would sum it up like this: if we say that CoH was a "10" then what you've shown us for CoT is like a "100". It's easily multiple times more expansive. Now let's just say for argument's sake that you were to scale the CoT system back to say a "50". With that you're still offering a system that's arguably many times better than CoH while at the same time limiting most of the outlier cases that would likely give you all sorts of trouble for all sorts of reasons including both game related and simple subjective tastes.
I think this is the kind of caution that people like islandtrevor72 and myself are talking about. We don't want to throw away ALL of the added capability you've worked hard to give us; we just don't want it to literally become "too much of a good thing".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
I'm of two minds on the

I'm of two minds on the subject myself.

On the one hand I agree that too egregiously extreme appearances can be immersion breaking.

On the other hand, where but in a Super Hero game, with it's potential plethora of aliens, sentient machines, mutant outcasts, and/or grotesque science experiments gone wrong(right?) would such potentially extreme appearances be so fitting?

One of my characters from CoH was an enchanted stone gargoyle. His origin virtually cried out for the grotesque, but was unfortunately hampered by City Of's relatively limited customization with regard to body shape/scale. That's not to say that I was completely unable to settle on a costume that I liked the looks of, largely by tacking on numerous costume parts carefully colored to simulate a more "inhuman" form,.. but it was unquestionably that. Settling.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the potential scales reigned in a bit (particularly the minimum arm length, that just screams animation breaking).

(Also, HELLO peoples. Long time lurker/first time poster.)

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: At that point, I would
Quote:

At that point, I would wonder why that other person can't allow me to have my fun since it's not a "real" detriment to their gameplay. "Being irritated" is not a good basis for restriction of options imo. Almost anything you do will irritate SOMEONE..

If all you got out of what I said was that I was 'irritated' by others creative choices then all I can say is sorry.
The responses that have been made to my opinion are almost completely reactionary. People seem to think I am trying to hinder creativity (no matter how many times I say the contrary) and so respond with these dismissive irrelevant arguments.

I am trying to actually preserve the creative process without damaging the world aesthetic.

The idea that your actions in the shared universe of an mmo do not affect others is an absurdity to me of epic proportions. This includes costumes, character design, character name as well as a multitude of other things you can do such as spam chat or sound effects. The influence you can have may be minor as an individual but you are not the only one to contribute to that influence. Each additional character that influences someone in the same way(for good or bad) has a greater impact. Arguments that try and treat this as a simple 'what I like may not be what you like' are very self centered and do not take the entire game into consideration.

As for arguments about the maturity of the players, how long they will play for and what people assume the character creator will be used for....take a look at the game 'Spore' and the impact that even a small subsection of short term players had on the game. It still has the reputation of a game to create penis monsters.... hardy the intention of the devs or what the larger community wanted. Before the devs of that game could respond the game was irreprabaly damaged.
Now look at a game like Black Desert and the care the devs put into directing the creative expression of players through the use of their avatar builder. That game is getting a very good reputation based almost entirely on its avatar builder. The devs fostered an artistic expression early on by supporting positive player involvement and limiting or removing aspects of the AB that were disruptive. Its not uncommon to see contests, vlogs or game play videos that focus just on the capabilities of that AB.
One game didn't have foresight and the other did.
So, to me, thinking long and hard about the impact of player created aspects in the game (yes this includes character design) and what you want it to accomplish before just opening the floodgates is the most important part of the development of those features... to think otherwise is foolish and irresponsible in my opinion.

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: I think this is the
Quote:

I think this is the kind of caution that people like islandtrevor72 and myself are talking about. We don't want to throw away ALL of the added capability you've worked hard to give us; we just don't want it to literally become "too much of a good thing".

Exactly.
Although I must admit that I never actually thought you agreed with my concerns. Given your earlier posts, I thought you were of an opposite opinion and that you were trying to console me by stating that mechanics will force limits. I must have missed an underlying subtext so I apologize.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: Now
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Now look at a game like Black Desert and the care the devs put into directing the creative expression of players through the use of their avatar builder. That game is getting a very good reputation based almost entirely on its avatar builder. The devs fostered an artistic expression early on by supporting positive player involvement and limiting or removing aspects of the AB that were disruptive. Its not uncommon to see contests, vlogs or game play videos that focus just on the capabilities of that AB.

Perhaps you haven't seen the YouTube videos where people have used the BDO character creator to create some very disturbing "freak" characters. That system provides so many options that the ability to create silly grotesques is virtually limitless.
Now it could very well be that inside the game itself most people are behaving themselves and only saving their "freak" designs for the YouTubes. But if that's the case why would CoT be any different? Sure once again some people might make a few silly CoT characters "just because they can". But I'm not really seeing the obvious certainty that CoT will become the next Spore in this regard.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote: I think this is the kind of caution that people like islandtrevor72 and myself are talking about. We don't want to throw away ALL of the added capability you've worked hard to give us; we just don't want it to literally become "too much of a good thing".
Exactly.
Although I must admit that I never actually thought you agreed with my concerns. Given your earlier posts, I thought you were of an opposite opinion and that you were trying to console me by stating that mechanics will force limits. I must have missed an underlying subtext so I apologize.

I suspect a number of factors will end up "limiting" the extent of the initial sliders we've seen. I simply think that what you seem to be primarily concerned about here is only ONE of those factors.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
Ok. Now that our email system

Ok. Now that our email system is fixed (anti-spam measure for one thing) I'm happily not having to keep refreshing this page to check. Of course you know I had to look up a certain element of the Spore game someone had mentioned. No, I don't think that's going to be remotely possible for us and if it does become likely I'm sure it will be handled quickly (I'm still laughing though).

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
avelworldcreator wrote: Ok.
avelworldcreator wrote:

Ok. Now that our email system is fixed (anti-spam measure for one thing) I'm happily not having to keep refreshing this page to check. Of course you know I had to look up a certain element of the Spore game someone had mentioned. No, I don't think that's going to be remotely possible for us and if it does become likely I'm sure it will be handled quickly (I'm still laughing though).

I don't want to dismiss the valid concern that people might abuse the character creator systems of CoT out of hand. I'd rather just have unforeseen mechanical and/or animation issues be the driving force for limiting the sliders as opposed to purely subjective ones.
I very strongly suspect you will eventually find deterministic engineering reasons for scaling back at least some of the sliders and as a secondary "side effect" that will also benefit those who, for whatever reason, just don't want to "see" characters running around with highly exaggerated parts.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: Perhaps you haven't
Quote:

Perhaps you haven't seen the YouTube videos where people have used the BDO character creator to create some very disturbing "freak" characters. That system provides so many options that the ability to create silly grotesques is virtually limitless.
.

I have seen them and understand the purpose of them and the effect those videos can have, but they only further illustrate my opinion. The BDO avatar builder was and continues to be developed with creative expression in mind. Through the combined efforts of the devs and community the disruptive aspect is minimized.

Quote:

Now it could very well be that in the game itself most people are behaving themselves and only saving their "freak" designs for the YouTubes. But if that's the case why would CoT be any different? Sure once again some people might make a few silly CoT characters "just because they can". But I'm really not seeing the obvious certainty that CoT will become the next Spore in this regard..

If I was speaking in terms of obvious certainty then I would be a schmuck. I am advocating careful consideration and safeguards just in case. I really don't understand the resistance to this.
I have a fire alarm and home insurance because the alternative is just dumb.

wmilliken
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 07/16/2015 - 21:16
I will add my voice to the

Bravo!

I will add my voice to the chorus of appreciation for this demo. Very nice to see so many pieces coming together!

After reading the discussion about the potential for too many freak characters... I think the MMO world needs to think more about handling problem players in general; this is one aspect of that issue. One notion that occurred to me in reading this discussion was that character appearance is client-side, and maybe the game could support some kind of "shunning" mechanism like chat ignores to deal with the visually annoying types.

I was thinking of something like a "/vignore" command that would let you designate a particular player's characters (or a single character) to be rendered as a basic default model, possibly semi-transparent, but at least (a) normal sized -- to eliminate some of the issues I've seen with bozons in WoW using large characters/mounts to hide quest NPCs and the like, and (b) visually boring and easily ignored. You could even have the game take note of the number of people who use this on a particular player as a reputation attribute. There are scaling issues, of course, if there are so many appearance trolls that it's a nuisance to handle them one by one, and the game has to have a way of storing these lists as well, though it could be done client-side, maybe.

If people can easily "grey-out" the appearance trolls, that may discourage them.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 5 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Say, is there any firm

Say, is there any firm estimate on when, exactly, the Lethal Weapons and Fashionistas will be asked for their weapon and costume perks to be designed? And how will that work when it does happen?
I have this summer off, FYI...
:)

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: If I
islandtrevor72 wrote:

If I was speaking in terms of obvious certainty then I would be a schmuck. I am advocating careful consideration and safeguards just in case. I really don't understand the resistance to this.
I have a fire alarm and home insurance because the alternative is just dumb.

My concern is that your "subjective hunch" about this might be a tiny-bit too alarmist for something that's so early in its development cycle.
Again I'm willing to accept that your concern here is valid and justified. But we must also accept that what we saw in this video is only the first iteration of something that we know is going to get tweaked and readjusted for months to come. I'd rather the Devs focus on testing/fixing all of the deterministic mechanical issues first and then later focus on the more esoteric issues of "what looks reasonable" and "who gets to be the judge of what looks reasonable". As was mentioned earlier the Devs made the proper decision to "over-engineer" the sliders to extreme ranges so that it would be EASY to reign them back in as necessary. That's pretty much exactly what I would have done from a design point of view.
It's hard to judge what the house is going to look like when they only just started to pour the foundation. Let's give the Devs the benefit of the doubt that when it comes time to paint the house they will have built it with the right number of rooms and a good roof.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
islandtrevor72 wrote: Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

If all you got out of what I said was that I was 'irritated' by others creative choices then all I can say is sorry.

I guess I should have gone with "lessen enjoyment". :(

islands in the stream wrote:

The responses that have been made to my opinion are almost completely reactionary. People seem to think I am trying to hinder creativity (no matter how many times I say the contrary) and so respond with these dismissive irrelevant arguments. I am trying to actually preserve the creative process without damaging the world aesthetic. The idea that your actions in the shared universe of an mmo do not affect others is an absurdity to me of epic proportions. This includes costumes, character design, character name as well as a multitude of other things you can do such as spam chat or sound effects.

You are right of course and this is where choices have to be made. Either way is going to effect people in an effort to please someone. Your desire to restrict the scale of body design will of course effect other people too if implemented. You will be more happy, others will be less happy. It would easy to solve if only you were being made less happy.

So which way is best? Someone will be hurt either way. I'm obviously leaning to the side which allows less limitations because that's the kind of game I like. I also enjoy the thought of seeing "freak" characters. I would get a huge kick out of that. So I guess I'm having a hard time relating to your description of it as a problem. They're all just cartoon characters to me.

I don't like the idea that this would make you less happy, but I also don't like the idea of making others less happy due to restricting character options. Do they go with the option which will make the fewest people less happy? It's a tough question to answer.

If it is decided that restrictions are needed. Then they have to define what "too much" is by determining what exactly "damaging the world aesthetic" is. That will be something different for everyone....very subjective. Is that through popular vote? Does one lead developer decide that one? And do we try to split the difference in what would make you happy and what would make others happy? Is compromise the answer?

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

avelworldcreator wrote: Ok. Now that our email system is fixed (anti-spam measure for one thing) I'm happily not having to keep refreshing this page to check. Of course you know I had to look up a certain element of the Spore game someone had mentioned. No, I don't think that's going to be remotely possible for us and if it does become likely I'm sure it will be handled quickly (I'm still laughing though).I don't want to dismiss the valid concern that people might abuse the character creator systems of CoT out of hand. I'd rather just have unforeseen mechanical and/or animation issues be the driving force for limiting the sliders as opposed to purely subjective ones.
I very strongly suspect you will eventually find deterministic engineering reasons for scaling back at least some of the sliders and as a secondary "side effect" that will also benefit those who, for whatever reason, just don't want to "see" characters running around with highly exaggerated parts.

Oh, I do hope I wasn't coming across as dismissive of people's concerns. I actually thinking of a community feedback system for this. Just need to figure out how best to balance things. I'm seeing other ideas too. The best one is a "don't want to see this guy's costume" toggle. That's a good one and mayhap the best idea. Let the other person have fun but other people censor what they don't want to see. Obviously we (the staff) are going to be attentive to other things that we have to censor for everyone but the ability to provide for individual player discretion may solve lots of problems.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Lothic wrote: My concern is
Lothic wrote:

My concern is that your "subjective hunch" about this might be a tiny-bit too alarmist for something that's so early in its development cycle.

I am not asking for changes or intrusive aspects. In fact it has already been confirmed that what I ask for in the way of precautionary measures are already being considered. It is not alarmist to think about the impact a feature can have, if I had said don't include it because this is a possibility then you might have a point, as I have not then calling this alarmist is a bit hyperbolic.

Lothic wrote:

Again I'm willing to accept that your concern here is valid and justified. But we must also accept that what we saw in this video is only the first iteration of something that we know is going to get tweaked and readjusted for months to come.

My concerns are not based off the video. They come directly from the comments in this thread. I stated this in my first response to you. Many posts, yours included, have either expressed a desire for the extreme options to stay the way they are or go bigger without any consideration for the impact this has on the game itself. This concern grew when I saw AWC say that the only reason he might dial the limits back is for technical reasons. In fairness, later he does comment on playability which could be in reference to the impact on the game itself...but as its not clear my concerns remained.
I am not taking anything away from the achievements that AWC and MWM have accomplished. What they have done so far is impressive and more than I hoped for. Nor do I think they should arbitrarily limit any aspect of the game out of simple fear. But I do think there is more to consider than just the mechanics of any feature the game is going to provide and felt that was important enough to state my opinion.

Lothic wrote:

I'd rather the Devs focus on testing/fixing all of the deterministic mechanical issues first and then later focus on the more esoteric issues of "what looks reasonable" and "who gets to be the judge of what looks reasonable". As was mentioned earlier the Devs made the proper decision to "over-engineer" the sliders to extreme ranges so that it would be EASY to reign them back in as necessary. That's pretty much exactly what I would have done from a design point of view.

I am not sure why you bring up the choice to over-engineer. I understand the reasons for the mechanics and the reasons they might change.
I also understand that if there isn't a clear picture of what they want from the AB then they could flail about trying to make some aspect work only to find out too late that they were never going to include it. This happens when you develop first and think about design second. You know this Lothic, you spoke about this very idea earlier when someone brought up extra limbs.
One thing you may not know is that the limits we saw in the video are not the actual limits, those arms and legs can extend an almost infinite amount....the AB already has limits built in and judging from the conversation they are more or less set by what looks impressive and not by careful consideration. This felt like the right time to not only state my preference (which I understood was unpopular) as well as suggest that consideration should be taken before they delve too far into efforts that may in retrospect be a waste. I also gave some reasonable suggestions as to UI and options in the AB that could help steer its use towards constructive use.
I am really not getting the opposition to the idea of thinking before acting and putting in a bit of non-intrusive protection against the possibility of a negative impact. I've already conceded that I am in the minority in what I consider important in a character creator yet the responses seem unsatisfied with that and almost demand that I agree with their idea of what is aesthetically pleasing.

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
I'm currently examining

I'm currently examining provide another one of my little software gifts to the community here. The previous one was a design tool. The next one (and I have approval already) may be a little more... Not THAT but still something you can possess. It's a test of distribution so it's also practical for us. Watch this space. :D

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: I guess I should have
Quote:

I guess I should have gone with "lessen enjoyment". :(

My quote wasn't about the wording, its was about the misinterpretation which I take responsibility for.
My personal feelings about what the character creator need provide is not the point of my concern.
For the record, I don't want limits....any limits...I may not think every option is necessary (or rather not think them worth as much as what it may hinder) but I don't specifically want them to be limited. I do get that the game will require limits regardless of my feelings or your feelings or any single players feelings. Our individual feelings are just not as important as the impact a feature will have to the game overall. My examples and specifically pointing out a common type of disruptive player were only to emphasis that the decision about what those limits should be need to take them into consideration because they can be extremely damaging to the game.
Once the game a game is released it can live or die by the actions and opinions of the players, for example, some open world survival games have died for those reasons.
Developers can also have an almost impossible task in trying to change things after a game is in the hands of the players even if it is for the betterment of the game....one only need remember the impact that ED and the nerfs to herding or regen had on the CoH player base at the time. I firmly believe that it is not only easier in the long run to plan for problems before they occur but it is very important to do so.
I hope you now can understand what my concerns are. I hope you can see that I am not advocating any arbitrary limits and I most certainly am not requesting that my opinions about what the AB can provide to out weigh what is good for the game itself. I am asking the devs to think in terms of the games best interest and not just what the creator is capable of and to be prepared for the possibility of problems.

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: Oh, I do hope I wasn't
Quote:

Oh, I do hope I wasn't coming across as dismissive of people's concerns.

I can't speak for anyone else but I didn't think you were dismissive of my concerns.... you might have focused too much on the example instead of the broader idea....but it wasn't dismissive.

Quote:

I'm currently examining provide another one of my little software gifts to the community here. The previous one was a design tool. The next one (and I have approval already) may be a little more... Not THAT but still something you can possess. It's a test of distribution so it's also practical for us. Watch this space. :D

Very excited to see more. I can't hardly wait ...just like Seth Green.

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
islandtrevor72 wrote: My
islandtrevor72 wrote:

My personal feelings about what the character creator need provide is not the point of my concern.
For the record, I don't want limits....any limits...I may not think every option is necessary (or rather not think them worth as much as what it may hinder) but I don't specifically want them to be limited. I do get that the game will require limits regardless of my feelings or your feelings or any single players feelings.

Agreed. The only real definable limit is what works within the technical limitations of the game. Anything after than that is based upon feelings. Because it's only how characters look and if that doesn't come with a technical issue, then all that's left is how people feel about how it looks.

Island wrote:

Our individual feelings are just not as important as the impact a feature will have to the game overall. My examples and specifically pointing out a common type of disruptive player were only to emphasis that the decision about what those limits should be need to take them into consideration because they can be extremely damaging to the game.

That's what I was talking about with choices. Who decides what a "disruptive player" is? Is that one we vote on? You can tell what my vote would be already because I'm having a hard time imagining how the look of characters can be "extremely damaging to the game". That one sounds really subjective to me.

And it just keeps getting more complicated as you try to reign in the sliders from what is agreed upon to be "extremely damaging" to "damaging" to "somewhat damaging" to finally arrive at "not damaging". Can I guess that our definition of what is "damaging to the game" would be different?

If we decide that "joke" characters are "damaging", we've got a standard. And since we know that it was possible to make "joke" characters in the old CoH character creator, we'll have to rule out even THAT level of customization. Going beyond that is out of the question. See how messy it gets when we try to measure "damaging" in terms of what characters look like? I don't want to be the one trying to figure that one out!

That idea about allowing people to not see any "joke" attributes would probably work best. ...Provided we can get a hard limit on where "creative" ends and "joke" begins of course.

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: That's what I was
Quote:

That's what I was talking about with choices. Who decides what a "disruptive player" is? Is that one we vote on? You can tell what my vote would be already because I'm having a hard time imagining how the look of characters can be "extremely damaging to the game". That one sounds really subjective to me.

The devs decide. They may take our opinions into consideration but the devs decide. They will also consider aspects like the overall aesthetic of the game, how much time and effort they want to devote to making things work, what they want to accomplish with the AB and so forth. But these are tangential to what I am talking about. If this is the topic you want to discuss then ok....but I am not interested in a debate that cannot have a resolution because both sides are very subjective. I am just not interested in an academic discussion to define what would be unacceptable in regards to the AB.
I would like to clarify that I don't have a problem with 'joke' characters, I have a problem with the mentality behind 'shock value' characters and the effect it can have on the game and other players.
As for how they can be damaging... I have given many examples of actual games that were damaged....some irreparably... because proper safeguards were not in place beforehand....as well as some hypothetical ways things can be damaged.
You can disagree with those examples/hypotheticals and I will discuss that, or we can discuss my actual suggestion and not this perceived idea that I am trying to neuter the AB. But I am sorry, I see no good coming from us trying to decide what is acceptable or not in regards to the AB.
If the devs decide to use a visual ignore feature then fine....I think that's going to have a limited actual influence on the issues its supposed to correct....by that I mean if someone deems a costume worthy of being ignored its already too late...they have seen it. It probably would also require more effort to make a reality than its worth. But I am not against this feature....I just doubt I would find much use in it.

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
avelworldcreator wrote: Oh, I
avelworldcreator wrote:

Oh, I do hope I wasn't coming across as dismissive of people's concerns. I actually thinking of a community feedback system for this. Just need to figure out how best to balance things. I'm seeing other ideas too. The best one is a "don't want to see this guy's costume" toggle. That's a good one and mayhap the best idea. Let the other person have fun but other people censor what they don't want to see. Obviously we (the staff) are going to be attentive to other things that we have to censor for everyone but the ability to provide for individual player discretion may solve lots of problems.

Hmm, a sort of 'personal generic switch'? Sounds useful! Perhaps attach the 'generic this' flag to the individual Costume? Perhaps have a method of tracking/counting such flags as a way for Customer Service to take note of costumes that might need vetting for a more permanent action?

Be Well!
Fireheart

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
To freak or not to freak ...

To freak or not to freak ... what a question. Guess my biggest concern is not for those that intentionally create a freakish toon. Its for those that keep hitting the random button to see what freakish monstrosity the AB can build for them. FrankenTOON! I think it would be nice to put limits on what the random button can produce.

ThunderCAP
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 2 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/13/2013 - 01:24
I think the problem is not

I think the problem is not with players that consciously CHOICE to create monstruosities, you cannot stop them since you will always be able to create a PINK superman with a strange combination of costume parts that will hurt your eyes, the limits will never be enough on this side. (But with the correct limits, you may still make me think in a roleplay way that simply that superhero choose to be ridicoulous with a pink-joking costume, therefore avoiding to break my immersion in the world... a different thing would be if a person simply has too long arms...)

The limits or presets can instead be very helpful for peoples who want to be serious but they're simply not good with creating characters, which are 75% of userbase imho (and I'm being good). These players want to create Supergirl but they will create a monkey with long arms because they don't understand anatomy or didn't re-check their work in the end etc. (experience, age, eye problems may be all causes for this), we'll end up playing with monstruosities the whole time.

You CANNOT trust the community on this side, not because there are jokers but because we (players) are not all artists or developers. Therefore you can avoid giving out the freedom to create arms too long to be true, and if you want the players to be able to create a Chimpanzee you give them another way to do so BY CHOICE called "Chimpanzee arms" "Long robot arms" "Monkey body" etc. so that you cannot make it by error or because you're going too fast in creating the char etc.

An easy example of this issue was ALWAYS present in City of Heroes in regard of superheroes height. Peoples had different opinions of the "normal" height to use and it always hurted me to:
1) Not being able to choice the correct height because there was no indication of it during character creation, therefore my character will be tall or small simply based on the rest of superheroes around created by the rest of the community (Is my hero tall? It seems not, because all the others selected the max height possible therefore it comes out SHORT. Same for the contrary, my hero often was a giant because entire parties were made by ultra-short heroes, also for pvp purposes they said...)
A stronger limit here would have helped, since you cannot make Giant-man anyway if they don't give you that specific power.

2) Not being able to foresee the community's choice in this regard, because I know that all players are as lost as me since there is no numeric nor visual help to understand the normality of the npcs (for example) so I can understand if my character is HIGHER or SHORTER than most npcs I will talk with.

This is just an example, but the solutions were (and still are) several:
1) Stronger Limits
2) Visual indicators on the slides which makes you understand which one is the "predef" muscle level, or height etc. When you're tall, when you're a bodybuilder, when you're being thin etc. Imho a simple green line on the bar, or indicator so that you know that moving it further to right -> will make it "muscular" for example and moving it to the left of that indicator will make it thin. This can even be setted so that the center of each bar is the "predef normality" decided by the devs for a standard superhero.
3) Creation of a specific class/race where you have no limits (like "aliens" with an icon visible to other players, like a specific forced class for it, only aliens will have some limits deleted and will make monstruosities freely). Anything, just try to give the chance for roleplayers to actually have an explanation for all kind of bodies they meet.

A last note about the concept discussed before about what's damaging to the game and what's not. The fact that all players have a different way of being "hurt" by monstruosities, doesn't make the "limits" a stupid choice. In fact at this point it's the developers who decide the exact level of monstruosities allowed, it's as simple as that.
The game is theirs, the money will be theirs (when the customers will buy the product or something from the shop) and they must decide what hurts the game too much (= lose more players that you actually gain with a specific feature or freedom), where to balance customization power and acceptable visual consequences once we have a world full of heroes/villains created by players of all ages and experiences.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: I am
islandtrevor72 wrote:

I am really not getting the opposition to the idea of thinking before acting and putting in a bit of non-intrusive protection against the possibility of a negative impact. I've already conceded that I am in the minority in what I consider important in a character creator yet the responses seem unsatisfied with that and almost demand that I agree with their idea of what is aesthetically pleasing.

The "public relations" problem with your position here is that it can all too easily be boiled down to the following:

  • The current slider ranges can allow for character body shapes you subjectively don't like.
  • The best way to avoid that is to have the Devs scale back the limits of the sliders as much as possible.
  • This may ruin other people's legitimate creativity but your concerns here are more important.

Now to be fair I realize that what I just typed was an extreme over-simplification of your ideas and I honestly don't believe you are solely motivated by the desire to stifle other people's creativity. It's just that you can't offer any PROOF for your "doom and gloom negative impact to the game" scenario other than saying "it's something I'm worried about". It's not that you're "in the minority" here, it's that you don't have anything concrete to justify what otherwise (unfortunately) looks like your personal desire to impose your standard of "what looks good" on the rest of the game. You are stuck between the proverbial "rock and a hard place" with this.
Now one more time I'll bring up the point I made about the Devs over-engineering the sliders as a means to give you something non-subjective to stand on. The Devs clearly created a system that allow the sliders to extend well beyond anything they could possibly ever imagine them being set to during the lifetime of the game. In practice they never intended to allow us to access those hyper-extremes but they are there just in case. It's just like when engineers build a bridge to be able to hold say 5x the expected load just so that it can handle that one in a million scenario when it might get loaded close to that limit. Because the sliders are over-engineered the Devs won't have to rewrite the code whenever they want to tweak the sliders by small amounts in either direction. Trust me - this foresight is a good thing.
So we know that it will be relatively easy to make slider adjustments for ANY reason - either objective or subjective. The key now is for you to somehow convince the Devs that your "doom and gloom" scenario will happen and is not just a vague possibility. I frankly don't know how you do that because I still haven't been convinced the Devs aren't already taking your thoughts on this into consideration. There's really nothing the Devs can proactively do this early in the process other than to overreact and over-limit the sliders. There's going to be a very fine to be drawn here between prudent caution and overreaction - now is NOT the time for the Devs to be making those kinds of final determinations.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Shadow Elusive
Shadow Elusive's picture
Offline
Last seen: 17 hours 29 min ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/10/2013 - 09:38
Islandtrevor, and everyone

Islandtrevor, and everyone else here, bring up various concerns that are indeed valid and will indeed be considered as we go forward. Testing will prove what technical limits there are; closed beta waves will show us what the community can or can't be trusted with. I'm with Avel that the ability to make a character render generic just for you is a good one, as does Warcabbit, our Project Lead. That's not a promise we're going to do it of course, but it's a promise we're going to remember that idea and give it serious thought when the time comes. It has the potential to elegantly resolve many subjective conflicts, not just the ones we're discussing now.

And we will most definitely have many presets available, both for body shapes and faces, to help players get what they want (or get out of the uncanny valley after they've accidentally fallen right to the bottom of it). That seventy five percent can tweak a preset to get what they're looking for, and use the simpler modes to make it easier to tweak without getting somewhere very strange (simpler mode doesn't just mean less sliders, it means sliders that link multiple advanced mode sliders so the parts change in relation to each other).

--------------------------

Community Manager
islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: Now to be fair I
Quote:

Now to be fair I realize that what I just typed was an extreme over-simplification of your ideas and I honestly don't believe you are solely motivated by the desire to stifle other people's creativity..

This isn't an oversimplification its a complete misunderstanding. You are confusing my opinion with my concerns with my suggestions.... almost all of your opposition to me is based on this confusion. This is possibly my fault for not making my position clear, in my defence it wasn't until the last two posts of yours that I realized this. I am willing to try and explain it again but without an understanding of what I am actually saying there is no point discussing this further simply because we are not discussing the same thing.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote: Now to be fair I realize that what I just typed was an extreme over-simplification of your ideas and I honestly don't believe you are solely motivated by the desire to stifle other people's creativity..This isn't an oversimplification its a complete misunderstanding. You are confusing my opinion with my concerns with my suggestions.... almost all of your opposition to me is based on this confusion. This is possibly my fault for not making my position clear, in my defence it wasn't until the last two posts of yours that I realized this. I am willing to try and explain it again but without an understanding of what I am actually saying there is no point discussing this further simply because we are not discussing the same thing.

Your point (one more time) is that you're worried that the sliders as they currently are will allow people to produce overtly "freak/silly" characters. You've cited the problems with other games like "Spore" as a cautionary tale of what you think is bound to happen to CoT. The fundamental flaw in your position is that what you might consider to be a "freak" character (which you also fear will lead to some kind of negative impact to the entire game) is something that is ABSOLUTELY 100% SUBJECTIVE to you and you alone. What you consider to be a "badly designed" character is solely in your eyes only. The simplistic notion of "I think it will look bad and hurt the game" isn't enough to convince anybody of anything even if I AGREE with you it might look bad as well.
Now I have been doing my best to not only convince you that the Devs of CoT are smart enough to ALREADY BE AWARE of your concerns here even before you posted your first post about it but to also go over with you the multiple objective ways this situation will either be mitigated or resolved long before launch day. If you want to sit there and continue to think "no one understands" what you're talking about here then go right ahead... I'm sure there's some brass you could keep polishing on your own personal Titanic of doom that no one else seems to be riding. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Seahawk25
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/08/2015 - 04:16
Perhaps, there should be an

Perhaps, there should be an option to re-adjust the height and proportions of your character; this would be useful as it would allow you to change mistakes that you think you have made and if you are unhappy with the way your character looks, but don't want to have to redo the creation process you could simply change it to something you like.

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Online
Last seen: 12 min 22 sec ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Seahawk25 wrote: Perhaps,
Seahawk25 wrote:

Perhaps, there should be an option to re-adjust the height and proportions of your character; this would be useful as it would allow you to change mistakes that you think you have made and if you are unhappy with the way your character looks, but don't want to have to redo the creation process you could simply change it to something you like.

Re-adjust towards what? I think a selection of pre-sets (which they are going to do) would be good enough for that. Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Seahawk25 wrote: Perhaps,
Seahawk25 wrote:

Perhaps, there should be an option to re-adjust the height and proportions of your character; this would be useful as it would allow you to change mistakes that you think you have made and if you are unhappy with the way your character looks, but don't want to have to redo the creation process you could simply change it to something you like.

Just to be clear even CoH provided many ways to change/create new costumes without having to "recreate" an entire character. This also included being able to adjust any/all body sliders for the character. The idea that CoT wouldn't allow for that is effectively unthinkable.
In fact CoT (like CoH before it) will very likely allow each character to maintain multiple costumes each with their own associated body sliders. Being able to add/edit any of those multiple costumes is going to be a literal cornerstone of the game. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Online
Last seen: 12 min 22 sec ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Lothic wrote: Seahawk25
Lothic wrote:

Seahawk25 wrote: Perhaps, there should be an option to re-adjust the height and proportions of your character; this would be useful as it would allow you to change mistakes that you think you have made and if you are unhappy with the way your character looks, but don't want to have to redo the creation process you could simply change it to something you like.Just to be clear even CoH provided many ways to change/create new costumes without having to "recreate" an entire character. This also included being able to adjust any/all body sliders for the character. The idea that CoT wouldn't allow for that is effectively unthinkable.
In fact CoT (like CoH before it) will very likely allow each character to maintain multiple costumes each with their own associated body sliders. Being able to add/edit any of those multiple costumes is going to be a literal cornerstone of the game. :)

Heck, I remember even having different genders on different costumes on the same character.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
blacke4dawn wrote: Heck, I
blacke4dawn wrote:

Heck, I remember even having different genders on different costumes on the same character.

Yep that was possible if you bought the Super_Booster_III:_Superscience add-on.
I made clever use of that for one of my characters that didn't even technically involve any "gender-bending". This character in question was a small teenaged girl who was a tech and robotics expert. I switched one of her costume slots to the "huge male" type just so that I could create a huge robotic looking suit of power armor. The idea was that she would (when switching costume slots) jump inside the big robot and fly it around sort of like Iron Man.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: Your point (one more
Quote:

Your point (one more time) is that you're worried that the sliders as they currently are will allow people to produce overtly "freak/silly" characters. You've cited the problems with other games like "Spore" as a cautionary tale of what you think is bound to happen to CoT.

Let me try one more time.
My opinion is that the benefits of allowing the extensive options is not worth the cost in development effort or the exclusion of other conflicting aspects of customization.
My concern is that without careful consideration as to possible issues, what happened to games like spore is a possibility.
My suggestion was to consider that possibility, as well as other factors such as the games overall aesthetic, before wasting effort on something the devs may in retrospect decide not to use and to put some non-intrusive UI/options in the AB that help with that general aesthetic.

My opinion alone should not outweigh what the devs consider best for the game and at no point do I suggest it should. It's just my personal view of what I like. Much like when you said you were 'all for letting the body sliders go as far as they can to produce the "weirdness"'. I respect your opinion....do the same in return.
My concern is about a possibility...not a probability, not 'bound to happen'. A possibility. You can think the possibility is as small as you want but do not change the sentiment of my concern just to make a counter point.
My suggestions do not include anything about limiting the AB's possibilities or anything that would make any character style not possible, including the examples I have given as something I am not a fan of. This misrepresentation of what I am after is getting frustrating.
The fundamental flaw you talk about is simply you confusing my opinion with my concern and then completely missing my actual suggestions.

Quote:

Now I have been doing my best to not only convince you that the Devs of CoT are smart enough to ALREADY BE AWARE of your concerns here even before you posted your first post about it but to also go over with you the multiple objective ways this situation will either be mitigated or resolved long before launch day.

You haven't even been talking about what I am talking about. And much of what you think you brought up I brought up before you myself.
The ones who have soothed my concerns are Shadow and AWC as they understood what I was saying and responded with the affirmation that they are considering my concern and have either already done or have plans for many of my suggestions.

Quote:

If you want to sit there and continue to think "no one understands" what you're talking about here then go right ahead... I'm sure there's some brass you could keep polishing on your own personal Titanic of doom that no one else seems to be riding. *shrugs*.

I don't think 'no one understands'....but I know you don't. I tried to be diplomatic and take blame for the misunderstanding but its become clear that you just refused to accept what I type because you have these misguided preconceptions. Either I succeeded in creating an understanding between us and we can discuss it further or you continue to flat out ignore what I say in which case I am done.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: This
islandtrevor72 wrote:

This misrepresentation of what I am after is getting frustrating.

I've just leave my response at this: The game clearly ALREADY has many slider options with many of them capable of ranging to very far (arguably silly) extremes. The "extra effort" you're worried about the Devs spending on this is already on the table. Now is the time to begin discussing what to make of it. The cat is already out of the bag and you're apparently still worried about whether the Devs will be spending time putting the cat in the bag to begin with. Time to catch up to the rest of us.
And just to be clear you've been wallowing in your own share of misunderstanding. For instance you clearly misread the point concerning "letting the body sliders go as far as they can to produce the weirdness". For one avelworldcreator said that operative phrase first, not me. I actually responded back to him in the next post with "you very well may have to arbitrarily scale some of the possible "weirdness" back a notch or two just in case you run into currently unforeseen problems". Even in my more general responses to that sentiment I've have ALWAYS maintained the position in this thread that there must be a balance between creativity and reasonableness. The problem is that you simply don't trust the Devs to provide ENOUGH reasonableness as you subjectively define it and I can understand why you don't trust them because far from "being on your side" they were the biggest initial cheerleaders of the "let's see if everyone likes the extreme sliders first before we limit them" camp.
I'm sorry I'm not clearly 100% on your side with this. At best I'm maybe 50% with you on this. I realize now that position has been very confusing to you. I can appreciate your concerns and actually do sympathize to some degree. But when all is said and done I still think your stance on this is about 2 or 3 ticks too alarmist. I'm also sorry you've come to the assumption that "I just don't understand you". Just because I don't fully agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Seahawk25
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/08/2015 - 04:16
I apologise for my previous

I apologise for my previous comment, as unthinkable as it might be, I never played City of Heroes, I only heard about it a couple of years ago when searching for an online character creator game, (I don't even know what mmorpg means). As I never played I was unaware that this was already an option on the game. My comment was in response to the issue of having out of proportion characters (even though this has already practically been solved by adding character pre-sets), because the changing is already an option I don't think out of proportion characters will be an issue as this could be solved by simply changing the character proportions back to something more realistic. Again sorry.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Seahawk25 wrote: I apologise
Seahawk25 wrote:

I apologise for my previous comment, as unthinkable as it might be, I never played City of Heroes, I only heard about it a couple of years ago when searching for an online character creator game, (I don't even know what mmorpg means). As I never played I was unaware that this was already an option on the game. My comment was in response to the issue of having out of proportion characters (even though this has already practically been solved by adding character pre-sets), because the changing is already an option I don't think out of proportion characters will be an issue as this could be solved by simply changing the character proportions back to something more realistic. Again sorry.

Absolutely no need to apologize. From the nature of your post it was easy to assume that you might not have been familiar with City of Heroes (CoH). It was a great enough game that the folks here who are developing City of Titans (CoT) want to recreate that experience as best they can and we're all rooting for them. :)
One of the great strengths of CoH was its character creator. It had many capabilities that were fairly revolutionary for its time so it only stands to reason that CoT will try to build upon its features. To be honest the classic joke was that there were some players who spent far more time tinkering with costumes than they ever did actually playing the game.
P.S. MMORPG stands for Massively Multi-Player Online Role Playing Game... it's basically the kind of game CoT will be.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Seahawk25
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/08/2015 - 04:16
thanks

thanks

warcabbit
warcabbit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/06/2012 - 17:39
Lothic, Trevor, let's shake

Lothic, Trevor, let's shake hands, agree to disagree, and hope that we, the devs get things right. We did have to design to extremes, because adding length is hard - but reducing it is easy. That being said, we're aware of Trevor's concerns, and for most of the sliders, maximum length will be less than maximum potential length.

Seahawk, welcome aboard, mate. We're going to have lots of costumes, lots of potential, and lots and lots of spandex. And yes, multiple costumes with different body proportions is pretty much mandatory for us.

I have such sights to show you all.

Project Lead

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: I've just leave my

EDITED TO INCLUDE:
I was typing this when you posted WC...If you want me to remove the post I will.

Quote:

I've just leave my response at this: The game clearly ALREADY has many slider options with many of them capable of ranging to very far (arguably silly) extremes. The "extra effort" you're worried about the Devs spending on this is already on the table.

No it isn't. Animations, costumes, props, interaction all need to take the upper and lower limits of those sliders into consideration. The more extreme those limits the more effort it requires. The insulting tone is not needed.

Quote:

And just to be clear you've been wallowing in your own share of misunderstanding. For instance you clearly misread the point concerning "letting the body sliders go as far as they can to produce the weirdness". For one avelworldcreator said that operative phrase first, not me. I actually responded back to him in the next post with "you very well may have to arbitrarily scale some of the possible "weirdness" back a notch or two just in case you run into currently unforeseen problems".

I don't think you know the difference between opinion and supposition. Your opinion is go weird, your supposition is it may not be possible. Explain to me how I was misunderstanding the sentiment of your statement?

Quote:

The problem is that you simply don't trust the Devs to provide ENOUGH reasonableness as you subjectively define it and I can understand why you don't trust them because far from "being on your side" they were the biggest initial cheerleaders of the "let's see if everyone likes the extreme sliders first before we limit them" camp.

I HAVE NOT DEFINED ANYTHING. I HAVE NOT ASKED FOR ANY LIMITS TO BE IMPOSED BECAUSE OF MY PERSONAL OPINION.
I had to put that in caps because it seems my last resort in getting that across is to shout it. I leave the decision up to the devs what they consider is good for the game and only offer opinions, concerns and suggestion. Just like you do. It's not a matter of trust, its about being on a forum for our voice to be heard.

Quote:

I'm also sorry you've come to the assumption that "I just don't understand you". Just because I don't fully agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you..

You don't understand me. You keep spouting the same things that I have specifically said were not relevant to my position or worse yet you try and put words in my mouth. That I am pushing for my subjective view, that I don't trust the devs, that I am screaming doom....that this ...that that. All the while trying to pat me on the head and say 'don't worry little one they know what they are doing' or 'What you saw is not what will be'.
Enough of this...I'm done.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 5 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
For what it's worth, I could

For what it's worth, I could live without some of those sliders entirely. For one thing, it simplifies things not having so many sliders, and for another some of them are just inviting disaster. The "neck length" one and the "hip width" one especially. Both of them seem like as soon as you adjust them at all you're looking at something unnatural and goofy, then you try to get back to the "regular" setting asap. I'm also in favor of limiting the limb length parameters to keep them more or less realistic for a normal human body. I personally would not miss or feel irreparably harmed by the loss of those options for the sake of forcing toons to look like people in the game. That was more or less what CoX had, after all.
Oh, and to reiterate, buried in the above argument was a question from me about the Lethal Weapons and Fashionistas. Do we have any clear idea of when those perks will be processed at this time, or is it just "some time in the future, that's all we know"? For the record, I'm expecting or demanding them now or in the near future, I'm just asking if there is a time frame established for them and what that is, if it's known internally, and if you can divulge that. I also have a number of questions about how this will be handled. For example, I might want a jetpack, but if like 20 other people also ask for them, then maybe we don't all want 20 different jetpacks and some of us will be okay changing to something else, stuff like that.
Edit: It might be a good idea to have some sort of publicly accessible bulletin board or something that lists all of the Lethal Weapons etc so that people can change their minds and switch to something else, talk about who get's what, etc. That way if my jetpack is good enough for most other people, and if I'm going to let everyone access it right away anyhow (which I am), other people can ask for other stuff, making it more diverse (and maybe they let everyone access their things right away too). It might also be good to have publicly-visible parameters like where the default setting is "you get it exclusively for a year" but then you can barter the access rights to other individuals in exchange for access to theirs, or as a way of paying people off so they don't design the same thing as you, etc. Then you could also have a setting like "everyone get's it, because I'm so awesome, yay me!" if you want to.

Edit: Probably too late to fix this now, but I meant to type "I'm *NOT* expecting or demanding them now or in the near future..." above, sorry for the confusion.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Phararri
Phararri's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 14 hours ago
Joined: 09/13/2015 - 20:08
islandtrevor72 wrote: EDITED
islandtrevor72 wrote:

EDITED TO INCLUDE:
I was typing this when you posted WC...If you want me to remove the post I will.Quote: I've just leave my response at this: The game clearly ALREADY has many slider options with many of them capable of ranging to very far (arguably silly) extremes. The "extra effort" you're worried about the Devs spending on this is already on the table.No it isn't. Animations, costumes, props, interaction all need to take the upper and lower limits of those sliders into consideration. The more extreme those limits the more effort it requires. The insulting tone is not needed. Quote: And just to be clear you've been wallowing in your own share of misunderstanding. For instance you clearly misread the point concerning "letting the body sliders go as far as they can to produce the weirdness". For one avelworldcreator said that operative phrase first, not me. I actually responded back to him in the next post with "you very well may have to arbitrarily scale some of the possible "weirdness" back a notch or two just in case you run into currently unforeseen problems".I don't think you know the difference between opinion and supposition. Your opinion is go weird, your supposition is it may not be possible. Explain to me how I was misunderstanding the sentiment of your statement?Quote: The problem is that you simply don't trust the Devs to provide ENOUGH reasonableness as you subjectively define it and I can understand why you don't trust them because far from "being on your side" they were the biggest initial cheerleaders of the "let's see if everyone likes the extreme sliders first before we limit them" camp.I HAVE NOT DEFINED ANYTHING. I HAVE NOT ASKED FOR ANY LIMITS TO BE IMPOSED BECAUSE OF MY PERSONAL OPINION.
I had to put that in caps because it seems my last resort in getting that across is to shout it. I leave the decision up to the devs what they consider is good for the game and only offer opinions, concerns and suggestion. Just like you do. It's not a matter of trust, its about being on a forum for our voice to be heard. Quote: I'm also sorry you've come to the assumption that "I just don't understand you". Just because I don't fully agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you.. You don't understand me. You keep spouting the same things that I have specifically said were not relevant to my position or worse yet you try and put words in my mouth. That I am pushing for my subjective view, that I don't trust the devs, that I am screaming doom....that this ...that that. All the while trying to pat me on the head and say 'don't worry little one they know what they are doing' or 'What you saw is not what will be'.
Enough of this...I'm done.

trevor, why are you always so heated? It does not have to be like that in this thread; this is happy times, that vid was awesome, can we all agree on that hehe?

Anyway, keep up the good work guys.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: trevor, why are you
Quote:

trevor, why are you always so heated? It does not have to be like that in this thread; this is happy times, that vid was awesome, can we all agree on that hehe? .

The tone of my response is directly related to that of what I respond to. If someone twists words, uses smartass or offhand insults or offers deliberate misrepresentation I am not going to reply with smiles.
I have my hot buttons just like anyone else...

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
islandtrevor72 wrote: If the
islandtrevor72 wrote:

If the devs decide to use a visual ignore feature then fine....I think that's going to have a limited actual influence on the issues its supposed to correct....by that I mean if someone deems a costume worthy of being ignored its already too late...they have seen it. It probably would also require more effort to make a reality than its worth. But I am not against this feature....I just doubt I would find much use in it.

That's too bad. Seemed like the perfect solution. You get to get rid of costumes you don't want to see and others get to make costumes they want.

I'm still having some difficultly completely understanding the problem though. I must be missing something. When you say "they have seen it"....is that where the "damage" happens? Is seeing a particular kind of costume a negative in some way I'm not understanding? The effect of seeing really long arms is...what exactly? I'm a bit lost on that. Is it like those on the old CoH boards who complained that too many people made pink Fire Imps? I didn't quite get that one either...not sure what the problem was.

I did think of one possible negative. Maybe a super large character could actually block the view in a small room...now that would be irritating so I could understand that. People used to complain about MM pets being in the way. That's a tough one to resolve.

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
Lothic wrote: blacke4dawn
Lothic wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote: Heck, I remember even having different genders on different costumes on the same character.Yep that was possible if you bought the Super_Booster_III:_Superscience add-on.
I made clever use of that for one of my characters that didn't even technically involve any "gender-bending". This character in question was a small teenaged girl who was a tech and robotics expert. I switched one of her costume slots to the "huge male" type just so that I could create a huge robotic looking suit of power armor. The idea was that she would (when switching costume slots) jump inside the big robot and fly it around sort of like Iron Man.

Ha! That sounds awesome!

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: That's too bad. Seemed
Quote:

That's too bad. Seemed like the perfect solution. You get to get rid of costumes you don't want to see and others get to make costumes they want.

The reason why chat ignore works is because a single person is continuing to use chat in a way that is disruptive and is there where ever you go...this does not translate the same way into a visual ignore. If a single costume is annoying someone so much they don't want to see it anymore then they can just go somewhere else and avoid it. This feature won't stop anyone from creating anything and will likely be used as a defence of any creations (as in bigoted or adult/restricted creations). "You don't like my Penis with legs character.....ignore it and leave me alone'. By then its too late, the costume has been seen and the entire purpose for the creation of the character was fulfilled (shock value to disrupt others enjoyment).
This visual ignore feature would not be preventative....it would be purely reactionary in nature. I would prefer the issue that this is trying to correct be treated preventatively but in a way that does not interfere with player creativity.
In the end, I think a visual ignore won't have much impact on the issues it was created for and as a result not be worth the effort it takes to program it. I'm not against it...I just don't see it being that useful.

Quote:

I'm still having some difficultly completely understanding the problem though. I must be missing something. When you say "they have seen it"....is that where the "damage" happens? Is seeing a particular kind of costume a negative in some way I'm not understanding? The effect of seeing really long arms is...what exactly? I'm a bit lost on that. Is it like those on the old CoH boards who complained that too many people made pink Fire Imps? I didn't quite get that one either...not sure what the problem was.

It's because you keep thinking in terms of a one on one interaction between players. My concerns are not about a single player making a character I don't like. Its about the game gaining a negative reputation, presenting a negative experience, or having the general aesthetic of the game being circumvented in a way that could hurt the future of the game by the players.
One player making a shock value character is going to have very little impact.... its when that shock value character design becomes too common among the players that it can hurt the game.

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
You know, I'm just not

You know, I'm just not worried about 'grotesques'. I'm sure there will be people who will take the Ability to challenge the 'uncanny valley' as a License to do so. However, this is a role-playing game and I don't think people will be that comfortable projecting themselves into monstrous horrors. The people who Do So, simply mark themselves as... someone I don't want to talk to, and I suspect that's true with most of our community.

I simply do not fear this issue enough, to try to get the Devs to disable the feature. Especially not preemptively.

Let the wild sliders go freely into the Beta, at least. There is no reason to scream about 'freaks' unless a problem actually develops. I note that the two games you shared screenshots from are still running successfully. No one has stopped playing or caused a ruckus, just because people Can, or Do make ugly characters.

I think the concern is noted, but over-blown and not actually that much of a problem.

Be Well!
Fireheart

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: I simply do not fear
Quote:

I simply do not fear this issue enough, to try to get the Devs to disable the feature. Especially not preemptively.

The implication being that I am trying to? I really would prefer it if you didn't deliberately twist my position.

Quote:

Let the wild sliders go freely into the Beta, at least. There is no reason to scream about 'freaks' unless a problem actually develops.

I personally think it is always better to think about escape before the house is on fire.

Quote:

I note that the two games you shared screenshots from are still running successfully. No one has stopped playing or caused a ruckus, just because people Can, or Do make ugly characters..

Those picture examples were to show how players can circumvent the games aesthetic. I gave other examples of games that were damaged by not having proper protection in place.
But since you brought it up. I quit those games because the characters you interact with do not represent the world they live in. I know of others who have as well. You cannot make claims like no one has stopped playing without having the inside data the devs have. And there are plenty of threads in the forums of ark that discuss the dislike of that games customization.
I find it absolutely ridiculous that most here think a feature like player customization should be exempt from any kind of careful planning, safeguards or plans to fix unforeseen issues. I am just grateful that the devs don't share that kind of thinking.

Halae
Halae's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 48 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/17/2014 - 09:37
One thing I'm really excited

One thing I'm really excited for in the slider diversity presented here? Minion designs.

Back in CoH, my two primary characters were Fiendcaller, a Demons/Thermal Mastermind, and Rig-up, a Robotics/Traps Mastermind. I would have had a third that I never got around to naming, but the game closed before I had the opportunity to do anything serious with Beast Mastery.

One of the big things I always noticed with the demon and robotic minions was that they still worked on the human body skeleton - they had all the same animations and emotes if you entered in the appropriate commands; I keenly remember waiting for a TF to start and setting all of my robots to dance in sync. The thing is, though, that while they had a human skeleton, their arms and torso were a different shape and length compared to normal human characters which, while it affected some animations slightly oddly, it never caused a true detriment to their animation setups.

Having the ability to create a similar level personally if we get customizable minions after launch (something many are hoping for) would be great. I'm still hoping for unique bodied minions such as wyverns, wolves, and lions that don't work on the human model, but having the ability to create obviously inhuman creatures to serve as minions would be awesome.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
ThunderCAP wrote: I think
ThunderCAP wrote:

I think the problem is not with players that consciously CHOICE to create monstruosities, you cannot stop them since you will always be able to create a PINK superman with a strange combination of costume parts that will hurt your eyes, the limits will never be enough on this side.

Sometimes I wish i could change the costume for only those select few, from the Selected player Context Menu > Change Outfit I See > Replace with Randomly Generated one. And if i'm a parent, same thing would propagate to any other sub accounts, if i'm on an account that has parental control.

Edit:
And maybe also change the Tint of their Sonic Dispersion shield from Bright White to, dark gray... 20% Translucent. :[

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote: I don't
islandtrevor72 wrote:

I don't think you know the difference between opinion and supposition. Your opinion is go weird, your supposition is it may not be possible. Explain to me how I was misunderstanding the sentiment of your statement?

You asked for it...
My "opinion" in this case is actually more of a very educated prediction. I'll even go so far as to say I KNOW the "extremely weird" stuff you're afraid of WILL 100% NOT BE ALLOWED because the extremes we have seen thus far are only engineering constructs that the Devs have already assured us are NEVER intended to be fully accessible by the players. Again it's EXACTLY like what civil engineers do when they build a bridge to withstand certain EXCESSIVE loads that they estimate will never happen in real life but do it anyway just in case. Why can't you see that you're worried about something that literally by design definition WILL NOT HAPPEN in the first place.
That said my "supposition" here is based on the premise that the Devs are apparently still motivated (amazingly enough) to provide us with as much flexibility as possible. I am at least OPEN to their idea of setting (arbitrarily reduced) slider limits as far as they deem REASONABLE. With sound judgement ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. But I also firmly suspect based on my several decades of software development experience that what the Devs wish to give us in terms of slider limits (even their first stab at REDUCED limits) WILL NOT ultimately be possible due to all sorts of issues that will arise that they themselves don't even know about as yet or may not even want to accept at this point. It's the "eyes are bigger than their stomachs" scenario: they talk about giving us the moon now only because they don't yet see the final big picture where their desires to give us X, Y, and Z will have to be scaled back due to lack of time, money, tech, etc. In a nutshell I expect many overlapping factors to act towards preventing the "freak apocalypse" you fear one way or the other.
So not only have the Devs freely admitted that they've over-engineered the sliders, meaning what we saw in the video in terms of extreme slider limits is likely something that we will NEVER see even during beta testing, but that once they take their first stabs at setting arbitrarily reduced limits they are likely, through the course of further testing and development, going to have to scale back those limits EVEN MORE to finally get something that will be acceptable for release.
It's like the Devs of this game are making a piano by hand and you're worried that they're going to mess up tuning the keys before they've even finished sawing the wood to put the piano together with yet. Yours is the very definition of "alarmist". The only reason I've entertained the idea that your alarmism may be worth consideration here is that at least to a small degree your points are justified: Like you I don't want to see hundreds of players running around with 10 foot arms, 6 inch waists and pink polka-dot tattoos everywhere. I just can't, in all good conscience knowing everything I know, accept the likelihood of your particular "doomsday scenario" having any overwhelming chance of actually happening in CoT.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

I find it absolutely ridiculous that most here think a feature like player customization should be exempt from any kind of careful planning, safeguards or plans to fix unforeseen issues. I am just grateful that the devs don't share that kind of thinking.

Actually the fact that these Devs clearly know that player customization features need careful planning, safeguards and plans to fix unforeseen issues regardless of what any potential player (like you or I) says means that repeatedly screaming "The house MIGHT catch fire!" is at a minimum redundant and at the very least overly alarmist. If you consider me a "smartass" for saying that or if you think it's an "offhand[ed] insult" towards you then so be it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Izzy wrote: ThunderCAP wrote
Izzy wrote:

ThunderCAP wrote: I think the problem is not with players that consciously CHOICE to create monstruosities, you cannot stop them since you will always be able to create a PINK superman with a strange combination of costume parts that will hurt your eyes, the limits will never be enough on this side.
Sometimes I wish i could change the costume for only those select few, from the Selected player Context Menu > Change Outfit I See > Replace with Randomly Generated one. And if i'm a parent, same thing would propagate to any other sub accounts, if i'm on an account that has parental control.

The Devs could spend the time and effort to provide a feature like that. Although I suspect this kind of thing will happen so relatively rarely that it might just be easier to avoid the idiot in question and simply report him to a GM. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Gorgon
Gorgon's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 05/15/2014 - 11:46
Nyktos wrote: This looks
Nyktos wrote:

This looks very nice and excites me for the future. Although I would assume that the arm length option and the hip position option could certainly produce some weird looking results. Considering how this is a superhero MMO though I can pass that off as ''Powers be bullshit''.

Yes but we all know there will be some awesome creative designs nobody has thought of yet!

I could even see arm and leg thickness sliders going to 0 for hands and legs floating there. That kind of flexibility.

In any case, I would rather risk clipping issues with costume pieces than limit sliders. The best example would be, stupidly, disallowing long hair styles because they poke through helmets and capes.

I'd rather have the creative breathing room, especially to create non-human looks.

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Online
Last seen: 12 min 22 sec ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
*sigh* Labeling something as

*sigh* Labeling something as freak or grotesque purely based on body proportions is, imo, asinine. It's the overall look in combination with body proportions that would make ones character possibly a freak or grotesque.

If it was purely down to body proportions then these two would be freak/grotesque, which I think hardly anyone would agree with:

To create a system that enables the more natural "disproportioned" bodies but at the same time limits the freak/grotesque ones is an exercise in futility, especially since freak/grotesque is highly subjective. So then the options are to either allow for a wider range of creativity, which includes a wider range of "freak/grotesque options", or significantly curtail creativity. Personally I'd rather have the former. Sure, there will most certainly be some that makes such outlandish characters but I don't think they will be anywhere near that numerous so that MWM will have to significantly reduce the overall creativity of the character creator.

I have the confidence that MWM will be able to pick a good enough balancing point between creativity and curtailing "abnormal" creations.

warcabbit
warcabbit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/06/2012 - 17:39
Trevor, everyone, please,

Trevor, everyone, please, enough about grotesqueries.
1: Some of the sliders you saw are designed to operate in combination with other sliders - for example, without adjusting the neck upwards, engaging the 'brute mode' winds up somewhat neckless. Same for the hips - if we couldn't spread them slightly, you would wind up with overlapping thighs.

2: We needed to exceed the norm now, so that we can limit it later.

Relax. We've got this. We will listen to what you say, and use our best judgment to make the best creator we can.

Project Lead

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Yes, I trust the Devs to do a

Yes, I trust the Devs to do a good job.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Godling
Godling's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 53 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/02/2013 - 13:28
Or you could add a slider

Or you could add a slider for comic exaggeration and realistic based on what can be animated. There maybe humans but there mutants aliens and bots out there as well.

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
blacke4dawn wrote: *sigh*
blacke4dawn wrote:

*sigh* Labeling something as freak or grotesque purely based on body proportions is, imo, asinine. It's the overall look in combination with body proportions that would make ones character possibly a freak or grotesque.If it was purely down to body proportions then these two would be freak/grotesque, which I think hardly anyone would agree with:To create a system that enables the more natural "disproportioned" bodies but at the same time limits the freak/grotesque ones is an exercise in futility, especially since freak/grotesque is highly subjective. So then the options are to either allow for a wider range of creativity, which includes a wider range of "freak/grotesque options", or significantly curtail creativity. Personally I'd rather have the former. Sure, there will most certainly be some that makes such outlandish characters but I don't think they will be anywhere near that numerous so that MWM will have to significantly reduce the overall creativity of the character creator.I have the confidence that MWM will be able to pick a good enough balancing point between creativity and curtailing "abnormal" creations.

Ha ha...I would love to make a character which looks like those. There are a lot of very creative people out there (just read a few bios), this is going to be fun to see.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 16 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Food for thought.Perhaps a

Food for thought.

Perhaps a more relaxed set of limits on sliders could be an Unlock of some sort? That way, in order to do the really bizarre stuff you have to have (somehow) "invested" into the game in some form or fashion as a Player. That way, you can't do the "really weird" right off the bat with a brand new (Gold Farmer) account.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
But the 'really weird' people

But the 'really weird' people are so obviously there to be looked at and ostracized. They're all "Look At Me! I hit 'Random' in the costume generator and created something that hurts the eyes!" Gold farmers want to be unobtrusive, almost generic, so they don't get noticed and banned.

I don't think there is a need to limit access to the sliders, nor to limit the scope of the sliders. Not for Social reasons, anyway. The Devs may discover technical reason, when they start working with more elaborate costume skins.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Konflict
Konflict's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/26/2013 - 04:30
I fully understand the hard

I fully understand the hard work that has gone into this............ But I think it should of kept true to the City of Heroes character creation.

This one kinda looks like "Morph"

https://youtu.be/dk_dlPM2KtU

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 24 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Konflict wrote: I fully
Konflict wrote:

I fully understand the hard work that has gone into this............ But I think it should of kept true to the City of Heroes character creation.This one kinda looks like "Morph"https://youtu.be/dk_dlPM2KtU

This is exactly why major studios, who are able to finance their own development, do not show their work until they are already at least a few years into the process. People just don't get it--and why would they, they're not developers.

Konflict, don't worry, this isn't the final look of anything. This was just proof that they have certain systems up and running. This shows that Missing Worlds Media has something they can download to a computer and that it has a basic rig with a very wide range of ability to change shape and surface (and probably it proves other things I don't get, because I'm not a developer either), but it is not representative of the final look or art style at all.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 16 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
There's a difference between

There's a difference between CAN DO ... and SHOULD DO.

The problem is, you have to demonstrate CAN before deciding on SHOULD.

It's kind of like how there can be 1060 possible combinations of costume choices, due to sliders, colors, selections, etc. ... but only 106 of them will actually "look good" while the rest are a pile of eyesores and fashion disasters that are utterly tasteless. You have to enable the trash in order to have the treasure.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote: There's a
Redlynne wrote:

There's a difference between CAN DO ... and SHOULD DO.
The problem is, you have to demonstrate CAN before deciding on SHOULD.
It's kind of like how there can be 1060 possible combinations of costume choices, due to sliders, colors, selections, etc. ... but only 106 of them will actually "look good" while the rest are a pile of eyesores and fashion disasters that are utterly tasteless. You have to enable the trash in order to have the treasure.

The reason a game like CoT must allow for this spectrum to range between what is "trash" and what is "treasure" is that everyone has their own subjective definitions of where the one begins and the other ends.
For example Picasso was considered a great artist whose work is loved and valued by millions of people today. There are people much smarter than I am about art in general who accept his work as masterful and visionary. But to me most of his paintings just look like they came straight out of those "paint-by-the-numbers" children's coloring books. Now just because I don't care for his style very much doesn't mean it shouldn't exist or that I know something better about it than anyone else. Same goes for the "weird" costumes in a computer game.
Obviously there will be some combinations of body shapes and/or costumes that will come from the CoT avatar builder that 99.999% of all people out there would agree on are hideous. But there will be plenty of "in-between" ones that are only say 50/50 and who's to say those shouldn't be legitimately in the game?
It's up to the Devs to provide a system that will allow for as much freedom as possible while ALSO taking into account being able to control the most obvious sources of abuse or other universally accepted forms of "badness". For instance most people would probably agree that having tails clip through legs or capes is probably bad for most people so the Devs should prevent things like that from being possible. Beyond that let the "application of creativity" fall at the feet of the player as a default.
As always if something out there truly "annoys" your sense of subjectivity you can always report them to a GM. Let the individual abuser/griefer get punished, not everyone else's freedom to be creative.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Shadow Elusive
Shadow Elusive's picture
Offline
Last seen: 17 hours 29 min ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/10/2013 - 09:38
Konflict wrote: I fully
Konflict wrote:

I fully understand the hard work that has gone into this............ But I think it should of kept true to the City of Heroes character creation.This one kinda looks like "Morph"https://youtu.be/dk_dlPM2KtU

Why keep to restrictions and limits we no longer need? It wasn't possible for the old team to have put this level of functionality in CoH, the tech back then couldn't do it. Now we can, and it's a logical extension of what we all came to CoH to do. I was one of many players sitting on a concept or three that really demanded fat. And the faces, you have to admit, were actually fairly restrictive. We have similar sliders for the face (and plan for 20-is presets so people don't dig themselves into deep trouble with them). Any expression on any face.

We have always stated that we are a spiritual successor rather than a clone. That means we seek to improve and exceed wherever possible and/or practical. A new character creator made in today's cutting edge tech has so many possibilities that the old game couldn't match. We're going to try to bring in as much of it as we can. That, to us (and, judging by this thread, to many others) is in the spirit of City of Heroes.

--------------------------

Community Manager
Cyclops
Cyclops's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 46 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/10/2015 - 17:24
Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Konflict wrote: I fully understand the hard work that has gone into this............ But I think it should of kept true to the City of Heroes character creation.This one kinda looks like "Morph"https://youtu.be/dk_dlPM2KtUWhy keep to restrictions and limits we no longer need? It wasn't possible for the old team to have put this level of functionality in CoH, the tech back then couldn't do it. Now we can, and it's a logical extension of what we all came to CoH to do. I was one of many players sitting on a concept or three that really demanded fat. And the faces, you have to admit, were actually fairly restrictive. We have similar sliders for the face (and plan for 20-is presets so people don't dig themselves into deep trouble with them). Any expression on any face.We have always stated that we are a spiritual successor rather than a clone. That means we seek to improve and exceed wherever possible and/or practical. A new character creator made in today's cutting edge tech has so many possibilities that the old game couldn't match. We're going to try to bring in as much of it as we can. That, to us (and, judging by this thread, to many others) is in the spirit of City of Heroes.

Bravo! Thank you sir.

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 24 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Oh. I thought Knoflict was

Oh. I thought Knoflict was talking about the actual visual look of the body rig in the cc, not what it could do. Maybe I misunderstood.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Shadow Elusive
Shadow Elusive's picture
Offline
Last seen: 17 hours 29 min ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/10/2013 - 09:38
One of us misunderstood, and

One of us misunderstood, and only he knows which. I was as startled to realize your interpretation existed as you seem to be mine. Hopefully he'll tell us which of us is wrong :)

--------------------------

Community Manager
Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 24 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Either way, like Cyclops, I

Either way, like Cyclops, I like what you wrote :)

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

harpospoke
harpospoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 00:13
Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Why keep to restrictions and limits we no longer need? It wasn't possible for the old team to have put this level of functionality in CoH, the tech back then couldn't do it. Now we can, and it's a logical extension of what we all came to CoH to do. I was one of many players sitting on a concept or three that really demanded fat. And the faces, you have to admit, were actually fairly restrictive. We have similar sliders for the face (and plan for 20-is presets so people don't dig themselves into deep trouble with them). Any expression on any face.We have always stated that we are a spiritual successor rather than a clone. That means we seek to improve and exceed wherever possible and/or practical. A new character creator made in today's cutting edge tech has so many possibilities that the old game couldn't match. We're going to try to bring in as much of it as we can. That, to us (and, judging by this thread, to many others) is in the spirit of City of Heroes.

*applause*

Shakti-Maia
Shakti-Maia's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2013 - 18:26
I think it would be a shame

I think it would be a shame to restrict the sliders much. Players should have full rein on their artistic expression!

One of my favourite character looks is a very tall, extremely thin character with elongated, extra-thin limbs and oversized head. The look is similar to a character you might find in 'Nightmare Before Christmas', like the pic of 'Jack Skellington' above. I was only able to make her in Aion because of the sliders that game has. I'd show you a picture of her, but stopped playing that game a long time ago and can't seem to find one on my computer. I didn't consider her grotesque, but I guess some people could find her appearance rather disturbing. Given the chance, I will be creating her again, and if anyone is offended enough not to play at my side... well it'll be their loss!

If 'grotesque' is an issue for players, then they probably shouldn't be playing a 'Superhero' game! Ugly sometimes is part of the story! Consider the following 'grotesque' or 'deformed' Superheroes, Antiheroes and Supervillains:

Thing - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(comics)
Mister Fantastic - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Fantastic
Spiderman - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man
Toxic Avenger - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toxic_Avenger_(film)

Deadpool - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool
Spawn - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_(comics)
Rorschach - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_(comics)

Joker - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(comics)
Mandarin - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(comics)
Two Face - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Face
Mole Man - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_Man

There's a hell of a lot more with grotesque looks and disfigured bodies/faces... and likely some are better examples than I can think of right now. However, you get the idea! Restrictions to the sliders could restrict artistic creation! Of-course, that is within reason. There's no need to make it possible to create ridiculously huge breasts, giant dildos, or exposed and over-sized genitalia! I think testing done to intentionally try to create something vulgar or Super Offensive (pun intended!) would be a good idea!

The Force be with You!
- Shakti-Maia

"...For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us..." - Yoda

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Shakti-Maia wrote:
Shakti-Maia wrote:

I think testing done to intentionally try to create something vulgar or Super Offensive (pun intended!) would be a good idea!

That's a good point I want to stress: It seems to me like some people around here somehow don't think ANY of this new game will be tested in any way and what little we saw in the video the other day is EXACTLY what we're going to get when all this goes live.

The reality of course is that we're going to be getting the first versions of the Avatar Builder to play with many, many months (maybe even a year or two) before the game itself actually launches. I'm quite sure the extreme limits of ALL the sliders will be experimented with by dozens if not hundreds of testers for hundreds if not thousands of hours long before anyone comes close to considering this thing ready to go.

What does this mean for the average player? Well first it means most of the people who are ever going to want to create silly/goofy freaks on-purpose just as a "joke" are going to get tired of that long before the game itself even starts. Second it means if there are actually any problems along the lines of being able to create "universally acceptably offensive" characters I'm fairly confident that'll be discovered and fixed in the first few weeks of open betas.

One more time there's always going to be a few people out there who'll make grotesque looking characters simply "because they can" and others will do it for the sole purpose to annoy/grief other players. This is a MMO so there's no way to prevent 100% of anything that would ever annoy you. But until it happens I simply cannot accept the notion that this game is somehow already locked into some kind of "death spiral of doom" of everybody making "non-serious freak" characters just because there's the mere POSSIBILITY that the Avatar Builder will be flexible enough to allow for it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 12 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Shakti-Maia wrote:

Shakti-Maia wrote:

I think it would be a shame to restrict the sliders much. Players should have full rein on their artistic expression!
One of my favourite character looks is a very tall, extremely thin character with elongated, extra-thin limbs and oversized head. The look is similar to a character you might find in 'Nightmare Before Christmas', like the pic of 'Jack Skellington' above. I was only able to make her in Aion because of the sliders that game has. I'd show you a picture of her, but stopped playing that game a long time ago and can't seem to find one on my computer. I didn't consider her grotesque, but I guess some people could find her appearance rather disturbing. Given the chance, I will be creating her again, and if anyone is offended enough not to play at my side... well it'll be their loss!

With regards to Mr. Skellington, I'd like to direct your attention to the shirt (maybe a sweater? hard to tell...) worn by then-President Quinn in her Thank You message. Not that I'm saying I'm sure that level of slimness will definitely be available, but I think it's a hopeful sign...

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Avatar courtesy of Satellite Nine.
If you can't see an image I've posted, please let me know!

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Shakti-Maia wrote:
Shakti-Maia wrote:

One of my favourite character looks is a very tall, extremely thin character with elongated, extra-thin limbs and oversized head

That was Willowy, right? Stick-figure with a giant sword, if I recall. I agree, she was a bit disturbing to look at, but you had such fun playing the waif!

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

That was Willowy, right? Stick-figure with a giant sword, if I recall. I agree, she was a bit disturbing to look at, but you had such fun playing the waif!

Be Well!

Fireheart

There's a good number of classic characters out there where if you wanted to "stay true" to their concepts you'd really need an Avatar Builder that allowed for thinly stretched "longer than real life" limbs. One perfect example of that are the Sailor Moon characters:

They've always been depicted in a slightly "elongated" anime/manga style that may not be strictly realistic but at least works completely fine for a superhero universe. If I were dead-set on wanting to create a Sailor Moon clone then I'd have a legitimate need for arms and legs to be stretchable to an otherwise borderline "excessive" degree.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

And if anyone thinks the two can exist in the same game world without it impacting players they are just deluding themselves.

You continue to come up with the alarmist "straw man" notion that this game is going to be allowing the hyperbolic extremes of this:

and this:

to exist in the same world when in reality the "extremes" we're going to end up with will likely only be maybe 1/10 as variable or less. In practice I would be surprised to ever see more than 1 in a 100 characters running around in CoT that are more "limb extreme" than my recent Sailor Moon example.

Until you can actually "prove" otherwise (based on actual observations of a bunch of actual players running around in CoT) you're only crying wolf here...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

You continue to take things out of context, ignore the body of an argument and completely misunderstand anything I say. So I am not surprised you take one example out of context to 'prove' your faulty and misinformed misrepresentation of what I say. I have no further desire to discuss things with you Lothic as you are completely focused on 'winning' the argument that you have been acting counter to your who you really seem to be.

Let's leave it here then: If after the CoT Avatar Builder has been accessible to the public for say 6+ months and there are still hundreds of people posting screen caps of their "latest silly/grotesque character of the hour" because even after 6+ months that's the ONLY type of character essentially EVERYONE wants to keep creating then I'd be willing to concede there may be some merit to your overt alarmism. Until then I will respectfully consider your degree of concern about this subject to be very well outside the reasonable consensus.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Seriously...you want to leave

I am done with this discussion

-Edited by Shadow Elusive

Shadow Elusive
Shadow Elusive's picture
Offline
Last seen: 17 hours 29 min ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/10/2013 - 09:38
We've asked nicely once, we

We've asked nicely once, we've asked nicely twice. IslandTrevor, you will stop engaging the forums on this topic. Now.

--------------------------

Community Manager
avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
For the record much of the

For the record much of the range allowed by the creator is because the staff will need it for production purposes (monsters and the like). Reasonable limits will be imposed as we discover what they are (defining "reasonable" is an obvious first step there). Presets to help people out will be provided. Mechanisms to help with scaling will be provided. You will be able, as time goes on, to resize your character if needed. In fact a complete overhaul ability is envisioned right down to gender as well as having the ability to create alternate versions. Much of this was provided in CoX if you recall. If someone does something offensive costume-wise use the complaint system. Be detailed as to why you find it offensive. But "I don't like pink costumes on guys" probably won't cut it. :p

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
You just made me think of

You just made me think of something. Will we be able to share costume settings with other players. I was part of a SG in CoX that had very specific costume requirements for the SG outfit. It took forever to get it right the first time. Just a little QoL item that I'm curious about.

Go Girls of Nukem High!

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I believe there's been some

I believe there's been some discussion of savable costume files and slider presets. I presume that those files could be trade-able. What would be Really useful, would be variable ways of applying those parameters to a working avatar. Like, just costume parts, without changing the physique sliders, or just physique, without changing the costume details. Change the body, without altering the face, or vice-versa.

My friends and I regularly exchanged .costume files with ideas and suggestions for new characters/costumes, but there was a constant need to reconfigure some of the details, so that the Result looked like our own character.

** It seems like sections of this discussion really ought to be in the dedicated Character Creator thread, as we move beyond the scope of this one.

Be Well!
Fireheart

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

You just made me think of something. Will we be able to share costume settings with other players. I was part of a SG in CoX that had very specific costume requirements for the SG outfit. It took forever to get it right the first time. Just a little QoL item that I'm curious about.
Go Girls of Nukem High!

Yep. I mentioned it back a ways in this thread. I even mentioned it in the context of supergroups if I recall right.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

Gluke
Gluke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/05/2014 - 06:36
One question: that bit of the

One question: that bit of the intro @ 0:30, does that represent the different alignments or is it a view of the multiverse we are looking at or what?

"TRUST ME."

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I kinda thought those were

I kinda thought those were the 'missing worlds'...

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

You just made me think of something. Will we be able to share costume settings with other players. I was part of a SG in CoX that had very specific costume requirements for the SG outfit. It took forever to get it right the first time. Just a little QoL item that I'm curious about.

Fireheart wrote:

I believe there's been some discussion of savable costume files and slider presets. I presume that those files could be trade-able. What would be Really useful, would be variable ways of applying those parameters to a working avatar. Like, just costume parts, without changing the physique sliders, or just physique, without changing the costume details. Change the body, without altering the face, or vice-versa.

avelworldcreator wrote:

Yep. I mentioned it back a ways in this thread. I even mentioned it in the context of supergroups if I recall right.

Starting at the thread I have linked here there was a good chain of posts talking about how the costume save/load features might be shaping up for CoT. Enjoy.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
Gluke wrote:
Gluke wrote:

One question: that bit of the intro @ 0:30, does that represent the different alignments or is it a view of the multiverse we are looking at or what?

Coming from the guy who actually did that segment it's the "Missing Worlds" as someone else pointed out later. My reply is the official one. :p

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

Grognard_87
Grognard_87's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 5 days ago
Joined: 01/27/2016 - 08:25
I'm curious about the scale

I'm curious about the scale as, looking at that vid, it looked like you could make characters the size of giants! I'm curious if that's actually possible or if there's no lockdown on the limit with the scale option.

Pages