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Zones

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Sitric26
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Zones

Hey :D i have a question about zones will there be different zones for heros and villians like city of heroes? or will they all be in the same one like dc universe?

Zombie Man
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More like DCUO. We're

More like DCUO. We're discussing the possibility that some zones are more friendly to people of different persuasions and what the penalty should be for wandering in the wrong side of town!

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Hmmm...,

Hmmm...,

- ...I'd have to say I was quite partial to CoX since it wasn't possible to end up on the 'wrong side of town' as if a Hero showed up in the Rogue Isles...he'd probably be leaving feet first in rapid succession. Even though it's the staple of literally every single comic book out there...being in a city full of heroes would make being a villain difficult. Would PvP be open in every zone?...and if not, why? Unless, of course, there's some club somewhere that heroes and villains can meet where power suppression is in full effect...I think City of Titans would quickly turn into City of PvP. Interesting concept idea...but non-consensual PvP may result in griefing. Would certain PvP consent flags be required such as 'Warranted' for Villains and 'Patrolling' for Heroes? Perhaps those Villains and Heroes who are not flagged are simply not visible to those who are...would this be vice-versa? If not, would non-flagged Heroes/Villains be able to enable the PvP flag? If so, how?...part of the GUI?...need to see a special contact? Interesting still...

"I just saw Galaxy-Gal get jumped by a couple of members of the Rogue Knights Villain Group when she was on Patrol! I'm going to give TPD a call to let them know I'm going to assist!"

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

More like DCUO. We're discussing the possibility that some zones are more friendly to people of different persuasions and what the penalty should be for wandering in the wrong side of town!

If such is the case.. please dear god do what DCUO did (and players never understood the reasoning of) and put vastly empty streets and areas with BEAUTIFUL design, no enemies, maybe a badge (in DCUO, an investigation). Places like downtown Metropolis and some parts of the Gotham Trainyard (and areas in Gotham too) are full of buildings, cars, citizens walking by but NO ENEMIES. Perfect for RP or just pictures. Even one of the biggest places on Metropolis Island (it's far to the north.. right past the Lantern war at City Hall) is just an empty spot that's a combinations of a beach, cliffs, and a hydroelectric thingy branched off of a huge building.

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Sitric26
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Thanks and i looked more into

Thanks and i looked more into it nightmare and thunder there going to have a districhs for each zone like everyone will be on the same server just there will be districhs for each zone like pvp/pve/mission/event districhs (sorry for my spelling) i might be off alittle but i think thats what i heard theres a thread about it somewhere that said all this id link it but i forgot were it is :) love what you guys are doing btw MWM :D

Sitric26
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Here it ishttp://www

Here it is
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts?page=3
scroll down on the page abit till it says serving up servers

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
More like DCUO. We're discussing the possibility that some zones are more friendly to people of different persuasions and what the penalty should be for wandering in the wrong side of town!

If such is the case.. please dear god do what DCUO did (and players never understood the reasoning of) and put vastly empty streets and areas with BEAUTIFUL design, no enemies, maybe a badge (in DCUO, an investigation). Places like downtown Metropolis and some parts of the Gotham Trainyard (and areas in Gotham too) are full of buildings, cars, citizens walking by but NO ENEMIES. Perfect for RP or just pictures. Even one of the biggest places on Metropolis Island (it's far to the north.. right past the Lantern war at City Hall) is just an empty spot that's a combinations of a beach, cliffs, and a hydroelectric thingy branched off of a huge building.

I like this. I don't like not being able to appreciate the view because I have to run a gauntlet of enemies everywhere I go. Also, it always seemed a little odd having muggings and such going on every half block while pedestrians walk back (although some days, the news makes it sound like this is more commonplace than I'd like to believe).
I think it would be nice if the baddies weren't always so bold and kept to back alleys and such with only the occasional foray into the light. Maybe at "night" they'd get more aggressive and step up their game.

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

Riptide
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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
More like DCUO. We're discussing the possibility that some zones are more friendly to people of different persuasions and what the penalty should be for wandering in the wrong side of town!

If such is the case.. please dear god do what DCUO did (and players never understood the reasoning of) and put vastly empty streets and areas with BEAUTIFUL design, no enemies, maybe a badge (in DCUO, an investigation). Places like downtown Metropolis and some parts of the Gotham Trainyard (and areas in Gotham too) are full of buildings, cars, citizens walking by but NO ENEMIES. Perfect for RP or just pictures. Even one of the biggest places on Metropolis Island (it's far to the north.. right past the Lantern war at City Hall) is just an empty spot that's a combinations of a beach, cliffs, and a hydroelectric thingy branched off of a huge building.

I like this. I don't like not being able to appreciate the view because I have to run a gauntlet of enemies everywhere I go. Also, it always seemed a little odd having muggings and such going on every half block while pedestrians walk by (although some days the news makes it sound like this is more commonplace than I'd like to believe).
I think it would be nice if the baddies weren't always so bold and kept to back alleys and such with only the occasional foray into the light. Maybe at "night" they'd get more aggressive and step up their game.

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

Zombie Man
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I don't think anyone on the

I don't think anyone on the design team wants to copy CoH's overabundance of auto-agroing spawns being *everywhere*.

Personally, I think Praetoria got it right with 'yellow spawns' that would ignore you unless you engaged them. In CoV, the Arachnos faction should have been that way. And in CoH, the police/longbow should have been that way guarding the main streets.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

And in CoH, the police/longbow should have been that way guarding the main streets.

That reminds me, one of the nicest little touches I liked was an old update to AP that added patrolling Longbow and even regular cops. If I was soloing a new squishy and got into trouble, I could usually find some of these NPCs nearby to help get me out of a tight spot. There was also the opportunity to stumble upon cops fighting baddies and help them out.

Will CoT have this in the low-level areas?

Spurn all ye kindle.

Zombie Man
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You could expect help for

You could expect help for heroes in the parts of town where law and order hold sway.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

You could expect help for heroes in the parts of town where law and order hold sway.

Ahhh nice! :thumbs up:

(Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative)

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All of this brings back to

All of this brings back to mind the notion of having neighborhoods having within them Control Points which, depending on who has control of the Control Point, determines the "character" of the region around it. If the Villains control the Control Point, then the region is "friendly" to Villains ... and if the Heroes control it, then the region is "friendly" to Heroes. This would then leave open the possibility of neither side having control of a Control Point where it is instead held by NPC Mobs, who then "dominate" the local area. All of this would require (or at least be made easier through use of) Phasing Tech so as to "overlay" different sets of NPCs in particular areas, creating a more dynamic world. Part of what tells you you're heading for "the wrong side of town" then is paying attention to character and types of people you're passing on the streets.


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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

I don't think anyone on the design team wants to copy CoH's overabundance of auto-agroing spawns being *everywhere*.
Personally, I think Praetoria got it right with 'yellow spawns' that would ignore you unless you engaged them. In CoV, the Arachnos faction should have been that way. And in CoH, the police/longbow should have been that way guarding the main streets.

Just had a thought about this coming in to work on the C-Train this morning... what if mobs had an aggro level range built in? I.E. they would not aggro to a hero/villain who is X levels higher or lower then they are (unless in the case of lower-level toons, the lowbie instigates with an attack)?

Flavour-wise, it's the mobs (say at L10) recognizing that Super-Amazing-Gal (L30) is a recognized butt-whooper in the city and they're going to leave her alone so she doesn't break them, and then seeing TurboSpark (L1) and understanding that he's just not worth their time... unless of course TurboSpark decides to take a potshot at them as he's running by.

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City of Heroes already had

City of Heroes already had that feature. Mobs on the street wouldn't aggro on anyone who was +5 to them, even if you ran up to them and stood beside them.

To be honest, I actually preferred the system used in WoW (of all things) where as you outleveled the mobs in an area, their Aggro On Sight radius shrank relative to you, but it never reached zero. Even if they couldn't "hurt" you (meaningfully), if you didn't go out of your way to avoid lowbie mobs way below your level they could still manage to "harass" you and be an annoyance, so there was an incentive to avoid them still. And the reduction in aggro radius was really enough so that it was only very RARELY you couldn't manage to find a "seam path" in between mobs to drive through where none of them would aggro on you (and if they did, you were usually mounted and could outrun them anyway). This only became a problem if you got "too close" and drew aggro from something that could either melee you or use a ranged attack that would then dismount you as you thundered on past them ... which was more annoying than threatening.

This system of letting outleveled mobs still apply a harassment factor if not "respected" sufficiently by giving them a wide enough berth when moving past them was one of the better game design decisions made my WoW which I always felt should have been included in CoH.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

City of Heroes already had that feature. Mobs on the street wouldn't aggro on anyone who was +5 to them, even if you ran up to them and stood beside them.

I guess that's what I get for thinking before the caffeine fully kicked in!

Redlynne wrote:

To be honest, I actually preferred the system used in WoW (of all things) where as you outleveled the mobs in an area, their Aggro On Sight radius shrank relative to you, but it never reached zero. Even if they couldn't "hurt" you (meaningfully), if you didn't go out of your way to avoid lowbie mobs way below your level they could still manage to "harass" you and be an annoyance, so there was an incentive to avoid them still. And the reduction in aggro radius was really enough so that it was only very RARELY you couldn't manage to find a "seam path" in between mobs to drive through where none of them would aggro on you (and if they did, you were usually mounted and could outrun them anyway). This only became a problem if you got "too close" and drew aggro from something that could either melee you or use a ranged attack that would then dismount you as you thundered on past them ... which was more annoying than threatening.

This system of letting outleveled mobs still apply a harassment factor if not "respected" sufficiently by giving them a wide enough berth when moving past them was one of the better game design decisions made my WoW which I always felt should have been included in CoH.

The thought about mobs vs higher level toons definitely valid, and I do like it better than just a "don't touch that guy" approach. What I was really hoping to avoid (and maybe this has been addressed with aggro management) is situations where 50s would aggro all of Perez Park and train them onto a group of lowbies and giggle while they died.

Also, the aggro level / radius / whatever needs to address the issue where mobs are higher than heroes. I remember numerous "challenges" wherein a player would take a fresh L1 dork and run it from Atlas to Portal Court - without using travel powers, trains (except for the boat to PI itself), or other shortcuts - without dying. Or even just having to go from the gates of the Hollows to the opposite back corner. With mobs that would aggro if you got too close, it was pretty hairy. Putting a cap on the level they would aggro down to, or expanding on the aggro radius idea to apply both ways, would mitigate some of those frustrations.

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Cutter, those scenarios you

Cutter, those scenarios you describe are essentially Griefing. I saw instances of Griefers would would train a Giant Monster from one of the Islands north of PI into Portal Court, and watch the beehive that kicked over. There's a limited amount to what you can "do" at the game design level to combat this sort of the pre-emptively, because players are clever ... and inventive.


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I agree, preventing that sort

I agree, preventing that sort of behaviour outright is next to impossible... but taking some of the lessons learned from CoX and other games and applying them at the start could at least take away the "easy" griefing options. I'd like to see the game encourage (force?) clever and inventive strategies (in as many areas as possible, not just the griefing scenario) rather than handing out a gimme.

Giant Monsters are different beasts in that they're meant to be purple and angry to everyone. Random mobs? Putting an "aggro against" floor, or reducing their "aggro against" radius, or even as was previously mentioned making them "yellow spawns" than only aggro when provoked (and ideally in that case only aggro against whomever did the provoking) would at least be an acknowledgment that the issue exists and the devs have done something to address it.

(edited to add) I would also argue that some situations, e.g. The Hollows, had nothing to do with griefing and more to do with wonky door placement. Sending a shiny L5 toon to the back end of the zone past hazard zone-sized mobs as high as +10? That was a design issue. Preventing those spawns from aggroing your noob as you made your way to the door is more along the lines of what I'm thinking of.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

More like DCUO. We're discussing the possibility that some zones are more friendly to people of different persuasions and what the penalty should be for wandering in the wrong side of town!

The concern I would have with this is in DCUO players could 'trick' PVErs into PVP by standing in the middle of mission-oriented mobs. Once you 'struck' an opposing player you were drawn into PVP. Was never a fan of this mechanic and hope this is not a planned part of the game.

"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers

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Thunder-Puncher wrote:
Thunder-Puncher wrote:

Hmmm...,
- ...I'd have to say I was quite partial to CoX since it wasn't possible to end up on the 'wrong side of town' as if a Hero showed up in the Rogue Isles...he'd probably be leaving feet first in rapid succession. Even though it's the staple of literally every single comic book out there...being in a city full of heroes would make being a villain difficult. Would PvP be open in every zone?...and if not, why? Unless, of course, there's some club somewhere that heroes and villains can meet where power suppression is in full effect...I think City of Titans would quickly turn into City of PvP. Interesting concept idea...but non-consensual PvP may result in griefing. Would certain PvP consent flags be required such as 'Warranted' for Villains and 'Patrolling' for Heroes? Perhaps those Villains and Heroes who are not flagged are simply not visible to those who are...would this be vice-versa? If not, would non-flagged Heroes/Villains be able to enable the PvP flag? If so, how?...part of the GUI?...need to see a special contact? Interesting still...
"I just saw Galaxy-Gal get jumped by a couple of members of the Rogue Knights Villain Group when she was on Patrol! I'm going to give TPD a call to let them know I'm going to assist!"

I'm trying to remember the game, I think Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, but they used faction as an agro meter. Until you had faction with an NPC type, they would openly attack you. It's a mechanic that would have to be designed early, but this also plays into the morality thoughts of the game. Players that align more strongly to certain moralities might be attacked by certain NPCs. I think this would be a cool mechanic to have in an open map type of game, or even a zoned game.

"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers

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I remember when there was

I remember when there was only One clockwork Paladin in KR and it did not just trap itself in the park, but led its horde of minions on an attack against the train station. PPD drones would usually stop it, if enough heroes didn't show up. Still, it sometimes seemed hopeless, until the Kheldians or other higher-level heroes showed up.

A problem is that there was never a badge for defeating the Paladin, only for stopping the Construction. A large group of -teen-level heroes could stop the construction, but at the time, the full-up Paladin and horde was capable of wiping-out such a group. Often, you ended up looking like this:

However, my point in this is to point up how the aforementioned 'griefing', while awful, really ought to be part of the game experience, if not quite so strong. Answer me this - Why are Giant Monsters 'static' spawns? I mean, sure, some of them just want to laze around in the swamp and count the stars, but if they're popping up in the city, shouldn't they have an agenda? Shouldn't they be trying to accomplish something? Shouldn't they be moving towards some goal? Not a 'static' spawn, but a 'pathing' one?

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Insatiable wrote:
Insatiable wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
More like DCUO. We're discussing the possibility that some zones are more friendly to people of different persuasions and what the penalty should be for wandering in the wrong side of town!

The concern I would have with this is in DCUO players could 'trick' PVErs into PVP by standing in the middle of mission-oriented mobs. Once you 'struck' an opposing player you were drawn into PVP. Was never a fan of this mechanic and hope this is not a planned part of the game.

Our devs are aware of that trick. ;)

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I'm gathering that means that

I'm gathering that means that "PvP On" is likely to be an active player decision rather than a reactive game engine decision? I.e. if I don't have my flag set to PvP, I can't be drawn into it unexpectedly / unwillingly.

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Cutter wrote:
Cutter wrote:

I'm gathering that means that "PvP On" is likely to be an active player decision rather than a reactive game engine decision? I.e. if I don't have my flag set to PvP, I can't be drawn into it unexpectedly / unwillingly.

Correct, the dev's have mentioned in interviews as well as the forums that PVP would NOT be forced upon anybody who did not specifically want it.

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Kaxiya wrote:
Kaxiya wrote:

Cutter wrote:
I'm gathering that means that "PvP On" is likely to be an active player decision rather than a reactive game engine decision? I.e. if I don't have my flag set to PvP, I can't be drawn into it unexpectedly / unwillingly.

Correct, the dev's have mentioned in interviews as well as the forums that PVP would NOT be forced upon anybody who did not specifically want it.

Well, there is the exception of the fact that (depending on where you read) that each zone will have a PvP flavour instance equivelent to the normal RP and PvE side.

So, if you go into the PvP shard, you *will* be auto flagged for PvP.

I guess that there will be warnings concerning this when you flip instances

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This sounds similar to what

This sounds similar to what Warhammer Age of Reckoning (WAR) did with their instanced PVP throughout the varying levels of the game. Players would queue to participate and then warp into the 'event'. The mechanic was neat, but they had such a complete lack of content to level that players were almost forced to PvP, which was not so stellar. I also enjoyed the 'Realm v Realm' maps.

"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers