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Your (possibly terrible) ideas for existing Superhero stories.

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Sakura Tenshi
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Your (possibly terrible) ideas for existing Superhero stories.

Pretty much as the title says, let us sperg about our not-so-original and probably not always so stellar ideas for existing superhero comic series, whether it'd be an idea for a new run, a storyline, or elseworld. Share it here.

Starting off, some of my ideas include...

Move Marvel to different places: pretty much that. Instead of just everyone being stuck in New York City, I'd have them scattered around the US. Like Tony in Malibu, CA (maybe putting Cap in Long Beach because of it's strong WWII history), possibly put Spider-man in Seattle because Seattle's really underused in comics (though some people feel Spidey is tied too strongly to New York and should be the one to keep it as his hometown), Dr. Strange in New Orleans (way more mystical stuff), Thor in Maine, or even set him in New Brunswick Canada due to it's ties of viking incursion in the past, Daredevil in Detroit or Atlantic City, similar with Punisher in either of those. And while things would seem slower, I'd probably move the X-men Mansion out to somewhere in the Midwest, the black bird would give them almost free range of the country, plus I imagine Xavier would want the school away from people who might harass them, or in worst case scenario, away from a populated area if a student suffers a meltdown. Plus, the rural setting means they'd be facing prejudice there far more.

Spider-man as a youtuber: Okay, there's a bit more than that, the idea is that the the run opens with Peter, Gwen Stacy, MJ, and Harry all friends who run a Youtube channel together. They do typical nerdstuff like life-hacks/gadgets/DiY projects (like King of Random or Laser Gadgets), they also watch and review old toku japanese series and wrestling matches, cosplay designs, and generally manage to enjoy their lives, despite the rough patches with it. This all ties into Peter becoming Spider-man, I'd play it actually vague on IF the spider did give him his powers, but it was the thing that stuck out in Peter's mind (and living in the marvel-verse, he's heard weirder origins) and adopts the arachnid theme anyway because so many of his favorite fictional heroes are bug themed. He mostly starts the wrestling thing more for fun than profit, just goofing off and having fun with his new powers than anything serious (which, to me as a writer would come off a bit pettier than even wanting money.) which bites him due to his Uncle being robbed and killed after dropping him off at an underground match like in the movies. From there, Peter delves further and further into the life and responsibilities as a hero, which kills his social life causing Gwen and Harry to get fed up and leave him out of frustration, only MJ sticks around, willing to trust what peter is doing is important and he's keeping it a secret for a reason. Meanwhile, Peter's costume starts off crude. really crude (like what he wore in the finale of Homecoming or like David's costume in Kick-ass) But as he grows as a hero, he makes more improvements, and eventually his suit isn't even hidden under his clothes, he just straps on his web-shooters and spins the costume around him like Silk did. By the end of things, Peter becomes recognized as a hero despite JJJ's best work by the people of the city, his old friends and aunt may learn the truth and apologize for their doubts (except for poor Harry who, you know...), and respected by the Avengers. The last shot of the run would bitter-sweetly show a screen with the old Youtube channel showing a picture of a different time with Peter and his friends all together and smiling. "Last Activity: 3 years ago" Peter and his friends have moved on from their childish habits of adolescence and into the greater world. Also maybe give MJ the venom-symbiote to fight crime alongside peter.

Merging Damian Wayne and Jason Todd: stepping away from Marvel is this terrible idea I had for DC where, to pare down robins a little, I'd make Jason Todd and Damian Wayne sort of the same figure as well as the First Robin. The idea being to give a bit of a Protoman thing between him and later robins, but also adding to Talia's reason for reviving Jason (she's not just trying to cheer bruce up, she wants to bring her son back, and every time bruce tries to stop her she throws in his face that he let him die). From his revival, Jason Wayne (or Damian Todd?) goes through various identities and works with various underworld elements in both vigilantism and revenge on his father and The Joker, becoming a massive psychological weakness to Batman who cannot bring himself to fight a son he feels he failed and needs his partners to help him. But Bruce, reeling from this keeps trying to keep later partners at arms length to protect them, ultimately driving Dick Grayson away. Leaving Tim Drake to then prove to be the heart of the bat family and the idealist who helps bring the them all back together. In a way, it's also to make this robin trinity each represent an aspect of Bruce. Jason/Damian becomes the will and determination, Dick is the skills and shares the origin of tragedy, and finally Tim is the ideals and beliefs that ultimately make Batman more than just his nemesises and helps remind him of that.

There is a song I hear, a melody from the past.
When I woke for the first time, when I slept for the last.
You are the one, the hero who will stand.
Do not blame father, he is only a man.

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DC comics but all the heroes

DC comics but all the heroes are magical girls.

Like a magical girl anime.

Clare Kent would have found a magic wand that crashed outside her house out in Smallville, Kansas. She uses the wand and Transforms into Superwoman! Then Darksied shows up to claim the wand for her own. A battle ensues which ends with Darksied's own wand shattering into pieces. The shards of which is what gives the villains their powers. And also Batwoman, who finds a shard and works out how to use it without succumbing to it's evil influences.

Diana Prince would have been given a wand by the Greek gods allowing her to transform into Wonder woman.

All the other heroes (as many as you could want anyway) are pretty easily adapted to this. Jane Jones gets a wand that comes from Mars, Haley Jorden finds a dying alien and is bestowed a wand that the Green Lantern Corps. Uses, Barbara Allen would have got hers from a sideways bolt of lightning (which would have been the wand being thrown back in time by a future version of herself), etc etc.

Doctor Tyche
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Teen Titans Visual Novel

Teen Titans Visual Novel Dating Sim!

Technical Director

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Teen Titans Visual Novel Dating Sim!

I'd play that.

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OK so Dr. Doom is actually a

OK so Dr. Doom is actually a Russian Hacker who's in his late teens.

...wait.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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X-Men/Spinal Tap mashup.

X-Men/Spinal Tap mashup. Logan, Bobby Drake, and Remy Lebeau form a band. They never know which member of the incomprehensible Summers/Grey family tree will play drums from one gig to the next.

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

Sakura Tenshi
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So much for terrible, some of

So much for terrible, some of these seem pretty amazing.

(but I am not a paragon of good taste)

There is a song I hear, a melody from the past.
When I woke for the first time, when I slept for the last.
You are the one, the hero who will stand.
Do not blame father, he is only a man.

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Batman vs Ancient Egypt

Batman vs Ancient Egypt

Project_Hero
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Batman vs Ancient Egypt

ANCIENT EGYPT! *Imperial march music*

No less ridiculous than when Batman fought the evils of ROCK AND ROLL!

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(No subject)

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

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You know what I want to see?

You know what I want to see? An Elseworlds Batman story that takes place in a zombie apocolypse

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Marvel Zombies meets Scooby

Marvel Zombies meets Scooby-Doo

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Batman and superman fight and

Batman and superman fight and batman almost wins until they learn their mom's have the same name.....

wait.....

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

Avatar by MikeNovember

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Do a Defenders MOVIE so we

Do a Defenders MOVIE so we can have special effects beyond "Luke Cage breaks foam bricks with his bare hands" a la the Hulk TV show of the 1970s.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

You know what I want to see? An Elseworlds Batman story that takes place in a zombie apocolypse

They have one where he fights vampires.

notears
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:

You know what I want to see? An Elseworlds Batman story that takes place in a zombie apocolypse

They have one where he fights vampires.

Yeah I know, isn't really the same as all the batman characters trying to survive a zombie apocalypse

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:

You know what I want to see? An Elseworlds Batman story that takes place in a zombie apocolypse

They have one where he fights vampires.

Yeah I know, isn't really the same as all the batman characters trying to survive a zombie apocalypse

There's also Blackest Night where they fight against a super powered zombie apocalypse.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Do a Defenders MOVIE so we can have special effects beyond "Luke Cage breaks foam bricks with his bare hands" a la the Hulk TV show of the 1970s.

Please! And a better soundtrack for the final battle.

Can we get a World War 2 story about Captain America, Indiana Jones, and the Rocketeer?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:

You know what I want to see? An Elseworlds Batman story that takes place in a zombie apocolypse

They have one where he fights vampires.

Yeah I know, isn't really the same as all the batman characters trying to survive a zombie apocalypse

There's also Blackest Night where they fight against a super powered zombie apocalypse.

Batman was one of the zombies for that.

My favorite of that series remains Green Arrow.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:

You know what I want to see? An Elseworlds Batman story that takes place in a zombie apocolypse

They have one where he fights vampires.

Yeah I know, isn't really the same as all the batman characters trying to survive a zombie apocalypse

There's also Blackest Night where they fight against a super powered zombie apocalypse.

yeah but I mean an elseworlds story where it's just the character's from the Batman mythos fighting a regular zombie apocalypse. No superpowered involved, just regular, "The Walking Dead" style zombies.

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I would like Marvel to come

I would like Marvel to come up with new ideas for characters that actually stand on their own. Last decade, they had plenty of interesting ideas for new Marvel superheroes such as Runaways, Young Avengers, Sentry, Jessica Jones, X-23, Noh-Varr, Bucky Barnes reinvented as Winter Soldier, Ant-Man III, Red-Hulk, the 2008 iteration of the Guardians of the Galaxy, and probably more. These characters all stand out for being well-written and well-defined. They were diverse without shoehorning it, and have fanbases with the comics audience for that reason.

This decade, the only ones that really stand out to me are Miles Morales, Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan), and Spider-Gwen (I guess Gwenpool could kinda count as well).

It seems that the majority of Marvel characters introduced now are there to fulfill diversity quotas and nothing more, and it shows because they have no personality and all the characters fawn over them for being so "awesome" whereas the only time someone like Spider-Man would be called "amazing" was in the title of the book itself. Basically, what I'm trying to say to Marvel is:

Give us new characters to tell us new and interesting stories. Don't focusing on trying to make political statements. I don't want to just read about the same old characters forever, that's why I'm all for having new blood in the roster. But that doesn't mean you should half-ass it either.

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Exactly. They can make a

Exactly. They can make a half black British half Chinese cat girl superhero to make her diverse, just don't put the focus on how she's so awesome because she's diverse! Just make her awesome personality and story wise :p

Also, because I used her as the example...one of my side characters, Calico, who is just that! :)

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Superheroes are inherently

Superheroes are inherently political statements. They have power which they use to protect those without.

And I'm fine with replacing characters, reworking old ones, etc. Mostly because when it comes to marketing people are more likely to pick up the newest Superman comic than picking up the thing that's entirely new.

A lot of the problem of the new characters and/or titles not being successful comes down to the fact that comics are pretty much only marketed in comic book stores.

Trying to sell a new diverse character to a predominantly white male audience is tough to do. Especially if that character deals with issues that said audience has a tough time relating to.

The real problem lies with the comics industry and how it handles itself. They really need to change that up.

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See, I just don't agree with

See, I just don't agree with that.

Let's look at the newest Marvel movie. Black Panther. Little over a third of the audience was white. Little over a third was black. Normally movies don't bring in a large black audience (less than a fifth of the audience). BP just brought in more people.

The problem continues to be many factors. Some of those problems are, those complaining, don't tend to read comics, they just learn enough to find something to complain about them :p

New characters aren't selling as well, so PC people decide to go the name recognition route.

Not to mention, they totally miss the fact that superheroes have been quite diverse for quite a few decades now. The problem has not be diversity. The problem has been people haven't been buying those comics :p

Spawn. Here's a black superhero, why isn't he selling as well as he used to? Who was buying him when he came out? White boys!

Luke Cage. Why aren't his titles selling well?

Cyborg?

The list goes on, but those were some more well known names :p This goes for other races/genders as well.

Good stories. Good art. Personally, I feel comics have been missing good art since the 90s :p Seriously, we need more Tony Daniel, Jim Lee, J. Scott Cambell.

I was buying Spider-Woman, and even I wasn't sure about the direction they were taking one of my faves and buying her comic was a sort of a damn if you do damn if you don't moment. :p Don't buy it, they think it's because no one likes Spider-Woman. Buy it, and they believe they're doing a great job with the direction they're taking her in.

Pregnant superhero and Superhero with a child caring responsibilities was likely never going to be the great "Look! A non male hero!" bringer of readers. :p

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Movies are well advertised

Movies are well advertised everywhere, comics are not.

Those complaining aren't getting comics advertised to them. They'd likely find out after the fact that there even was a comic that was close to anything they wanted.

And diverse really? In any big names? Let's have a look at what the general public knows of super hero teams.

Avengers.
Captain America: white man
Iron Man: white man
Hulk: white man
Thor: white man
Hawkeye: white man
Black widow: white woman

So diverse with the first Avengers movie.

Justice League
Batman: white man
Superman: white man
Aqua man: actor is from Hawaii, so we're getting somewhere here, at least it's a little different
Flash: white man
Cyborg: black man
Wonder Woman: Israeli woman playing a Greek woman

So that's most of the avengers who are white men, and about half of the Justice league team. And that's from their movie adaptations, the thing most people know best. And granted the avengers team did add in some additional people of color and another woman to the roster, while also adding a few more white men.

Yes things are now more diverse than they were years ago, but the ratio for white male heroes to non-white non-male heroes is still heavily squed in the white male favor.

And the reason titles don't sell well or get cancelled is because it's not about what comics you buy. It's about what comics comic book stores pre-order. Which means any more fringe books are likely to be cancelled. The industry does things in a really stupid way and it needs to be changed. Not to mention they charge like 5 bucks for 20ish pages of content or around 5-10 mins of entertainment. Which also helps dwindling comic book sales. Graphic novel sales are up, and other collected works, which indicates to me that the industry should stop or slow down regular comic sales and focus more on complete stories in graphic novel format.

But no, I'm sure it's none of these reasons, the real reason is that there aren't any good stories any more. Right. Sure.

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I actually mainly read

I actually mainly read graphic novels for that reason. It's just a much better experience to get a complete book that tells a whole story.

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Hawkeye, the side character.

Hawkeye, the side character. Yeah. Then you'd complain he wasn't a main character. :p

The movie decided to use characters that are white, I have no reason to believe they did that because, "Hey, they're white!" They just happen to be that way in the comics.

That doesn't mean comics aren't diverse. There's quite a bit, but they're not selling. They weren't selling back when comics were cheaper. Gambit is a fan favorite and his solo comics always come up short. Why? Cause they were terrible :p

Yes, now they're getting more expensive, but the people complaining weren't buying them when they were cheaper either.

As for comic books being ordered, all someone has to do is ask the store to order the comic. I get Blade Bunny from mine and it wasn't a comic they sold until I said, "Hey, I'd like that comic."

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Again.

Again.

Comics companies pretty much only advertise in comic book stores. If someone doesn't buy comics because they don't do X, and then the comics companies decide to do X to tap that market, how exactly will those who don't go to comic book stores know that these things are available?

And you don't find anything dumb about the continuation of a comic book series being based on the comic book store's pre-orders? The store won't know something will be popular, and by the time a new thing has gained enough popularity the industry cancels it because no stores were pre-ordering the book that they didn't know would be popular. This is a terrible way to gauge how a fanbase feels about comics, especially when large swaths of the fanbase doesn't know that this is how the industry does things.

The movies could have changed the ethnicity of any or all the characters they used. About the only characters that would "need" to be white would be Captain America (as him being a white, blonde haired, blue eyed, nazi ideal physically, at least, that America uses to punch Nazis is an amazing bit of irony which would be lost if the first Captain America was not white) and maybe Black Widow. Anyone else could have been changed and it would have effected nothing. Except for crappy nerds complaining online about people changing anything.

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The same way they can bitch

The same way they can bitch and complain about them now. They don't read about them now, but know how to look up stuff just enough to bitch about them :p

Disagree. However, let's go with your theory that changing a race doesn't change a character.

Black Panther is now a white guy, king of an African City.

Did that change just change the character for you? The answer is of course, yes.

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Note that what I said was

Note that what I said was about changing a character's ethnicity from white. I never said that any and all character's ethnicities were irrelevant. Note how I even mentioned some possible exceptions to changing a character.

The point was that being white has nothing to do with their character. With most characters of other ethnicities their ethnicity has a lot to do with who they are. Being African has a ton to do with who Black Panther is. But does say, Hawkeye need to be a white guy? Tony Stark? Superman? Hell, for a character like Superman it'd work better if he wasn't white, especially if he still ended up being the kind, caring, hopeful Superman.

So. Why do you think people complain about things in comics? Do you think they're out to ruin comics? Cause the more likely reason is they like, liked, or want to like comics but certain things about comics put them off. And there's a ton about comics that can put people off.

Also you seem to assume a lot of things about detractors of comics. Like, how do you know the people that are complaining about comics aren't reading them? Do you stalk each and every one of them? Do these nebulous people you seem to find or seek out put at the start of a thing "I have never read a comic in my life and don't plan to, but..."?

And if you think that it's because comics they wanted get cancelled or don't sell well I'll refer you to my earlier points about marketing and how comics companies decide what books to keep producing. People ask for a thing, comics companies make the thing but only advertise the thing in comic book stores and other comics, people buy the comics (less than who would because they're not being marketed to) but then don't know about the industry's stupid store pre-order nonsense, thus comic gets cancelled, and it gets assumed that people didn't want that thing. Rinse and repeat. You see the problems here?

But no, the industry is blameless and is doing everything right, it's those darn 'complainers' that are wrong! Cause they don't, after raising the issue, check comic book stores every week/month to see if the thing they want is there then convince the store staff to preorder the next issues in greater numbers. Right. Of course. That's way more logical.

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The ones doing the most

The ones doing the most complaining, are doing it to make statements. They get the change and they're not out buying them.

Angela was a lesbian goddess. Her sales were never good.

I'd say Thor being a male is tied pretty much into his whole background. Thor stopped being Thor. Sales went up due to the novelty and have come down.

Sales dropped when Miles showed up. Why did Miles show up? Because they didn't think he could sell his own comic under a name other than Spider-Man. What sales went down? Ultimate Spider-Man.

Spider-Woman. Pregnant woman! Sales didn't go up!

Let's look at your theory put into practice though on changing a main character's race put into play and see if it boosts all those sales in a movie, so people have a main character who's black...

Fan4tastic!

Bomb.

It was advertised. It gave people complaining a big name hero with a new race, that obviously they said is the only reason they can't buy it.

They didn't show up at all!

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This kinda went off the rails

This kinda went off the rails. I just said I think Marvel should introduce more new characters that actually feel distinct on their own. Because they introduced plenty of new and well-written characters last decade, but most of the ones introduced this decade haven’t made an impression, at least not a positive one. And it’s because they’re primarily used for making political statements rather than telling stories.

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Magneto makes a giant tsunami

Magneto makes a giant tsunami smash into the eastern seaboard killing millions all in the name of Mutant freedom.

...wait.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

This kinda went off the rails. I just said I think Marvel should introduce more new characters that actually feel distinct on their own. Because they introduced plenty of new and well-written characters last decade, but most of the ones introduced this decade haven’t made an impression, at least not a positive one. And it’s because they’re primarily used for making political statements rather than telling stories.

Project_Hero wrote:

And I'm fine with replacing characters, reworking old ones, etc. Mostly because when it comes to marketing people are more likely to pick up the newest Superman comic than picking up the thing that's entirely new.

I have no problem with modern comics being as diverse as possible. But I do have a problem with "reimagining" existing characters as completely different flavors unless there's a very, very compelling reason to try it. For the record I consider roughly 99.5% of the "reimaginings" that have happened in comics so far to be completely arbitrary, unwarranted and ultimately misguided.

Sure let them go out and create millions of new characters which are anything but the traditional "white male" and let the chips fall where they may. Just like back in the 1930s when comic books first got big in the US the market will decide if any of those new characters deserve to be continued. If one of those new "diverse" characters ends up becoming more popular than Supes or Batman that's completely fine with me. But never think that "retconning" a character like Superman to be a female lesbian Eskimo who grew up in war-worn Yemen and has PTSD, a lisp, a desire to adopt poor children from Bolivia and/or any other politically correct affliction you can think of will ever be fully accepted by anyone in real life "diverse" or not.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Exactly! Now go make that

Exactly! Now go make that character and call her PC-Woman, advertise the hell out of her, and see where her comic lands! :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The ones doing the most complaining, are doing it to make statements. They get the change and they're not out buying them.

Angela was a lesbian goddess. Her sales were never good.

I'd say Thor being a male is tied pretty much into his whole background. Thor stopped being Thor. Sales went up due to the novelty and have come down.

Sales dropped when Miles showed up. Why did Miles show up? Because they didn't think he could sell his own comic under a name other than Spider-Man. What sales went down? Ultimate Spider-Man.

Spider-Woman. Pregnant woman! Sales didn't go up!

Let's look at your theory put into practice though on changing a main character's race put into play and see if it boosts all those sales in a movie, so people have a main character who's black...

Fan4tastic!

Bomb.

It was advertised. It gave people complaining a big name hero with a new race, that obviously they said is the only reason they can't buy it.

They didn't show up at all!

You are still not addressing how you KNOW that the people who ask for changes aren't buying the comics. You're still not addressing how those people who ask for changes know that the changes are even done. Judging it by the fact said books get cancelled is a terrible metric.

Fan4stic was a terrible movie that didn't do anything with their casting choice. So oh no, a movie that's bad did a superficial change to a character! People didn't flock to see movie of boring characters talking in darkened rooms! Clearly this shows... What exactly? Using fan4stic as an example is sort of like if you asked for icecream and then someone threw it on the floor and was like "but that's what you wanted, why aren't you eating it!?"

I didn't even know Spider Woman was pregnant for a period in comics until I heard it from you on these forums. And as I've told you before I pay -some- attention to comics. So how does someone who feels unrepresented in comics know that these changes are made? Answer, they don't.

You are continuing to ignore the underlying problem that comics aren't advertised outside of comic book stores. People aren't going to buy comics that THEY HAVE NO IDEA ARE BEING PRODUCED AND SOLD.

But sure. Keep ignoring that.

Who or what the heck is Angela? Was that that liefeld character who was folded into the DC universe?

Also Batwoman was a lesbian too, and as far as I'm aware her sales were pretty good.

But the whole "just make a new character" thing doesn't really work. As unless their whole thing, powers and all, are completely different from any established character people will just see them as a copy of an existing character. And in that case why not change the existing character next time a reboot comes around?

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No. The point is, people got

No. The point is, people got what they asked for. They didn't support it. Doesn't matter if it's good. You think making the change on other characters will automatically make it better? No. It just changes the character to change the character.

How do we know they're not buying the comic? The sales aren't going up. So, at the very least, they're just wrong. It's not what people want.

As for your talk of advertising, when changes like this do happen, they get talked about, written about, it's basically free advertising, as you will see it all over, good or bad, about the change.

Angela was the Liefeld character folded into Marvel. She's Thor's sister.

As for Batwoman, her being lesbian was done in less of a PC time and more of a public publicity time, where it felt more like "If we make her lesbian, it'll get notice and bring in the boys who want to see girl on girl."

Making new characters does work. It's putting in the time and effort that's required.

Image comics made a bunch of new characters that lasted, until the creators gave up on them. Gen-13, women made up over half the team, one was bi/lesbian and native american, another asian. These comics were doing well until the artist starting falling into releasing an issue every 2 months or longer or just abandoned the book because "I'm bored of it, so passing it off to someone else."

I've said before, the way to get a character popular is keep a good team on the book for longer than a year.

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Ok, let's get through this.

Ok, let's get through this.

Fan4stic was terrible and the rights to the Fantastic Four should go back to marvel where they'll actually do something worthwhile with it. I'm not sure why they made that casting choice, headlines, because people wanted more representation in Superhero movies, or because he was the best choice for the part. They didn't really do anything with that casting choice however, which in a perfect world would be fine. However we're not in a perfect world, so whatever gesture they were trying to do with it holds about as much weight as if a colorist for marvel decided to color Tony Stark as an African American. At any rate sometimes, or a lot of the time, an empty gesture isn't much better than nothing.

So the sales didn't go up. That's not surprising as they're only advertising TO THE AUDIENCE THEY ALREADY HAVE.

And again on advertising I try to remain informed on comics. I don't know half of the changes that get made. I hear some things, some big changes, but a lot of the stuff doesn't get talked about all that much. So I ask you how is someone, your average person, going to hear about a comic they might be interested in? Wait for some kind of report on it on some website they don't visit? Word of mouth? Cause banking on the news of changes just happening to cross someone's path is a TERRIBLE ADVERTISING STRATEGY.

A liefeld character wasn't popular!? That's -so- surprising!

From what I read of that Batwoman it was more a background thing about the character that didn't come up all that much, granted I only read a couple of graphic novels where she was featured. But DC will try to play to their dwindling teenage boy market.

I'll freely admit I know very little about image comics, I only know of terrible liefeld works and Invincible (which last I was reading was great). Oh, and I know of spawn too. And a couple of other characters.

And yes, good comics tend to be good. And good creators tend to do good work. DC and Marvel seem to enjoy shooting themselves in the foot in this regard (giving Frank Miller Superman, what the hell?).

Bendis was on ultimate Spiderman when Miles Morales came in, that apparently didn't help his sales. I found Miles a far more interesting character than Peter ever was. In fact I picked up all the Graphic Novels of Miles Morales Spiderman I could find. But then Graphic Novel sales don't factor much into how comics companies do business.

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Well, see, I tried Miles

Well, see, I tried Miles Spider-Man when it came out (I was already reading Ult Spider-Man with Peter) and really, all I could hope, was Peter came back. I found Miles terrible. The fact that he was an obvious ploy to use Spider-Man's name, because they couldn't make him interesting without stealing another character's name, just made it worse.

Now, if they did a 2099 thing. I wouldn't have minded. Miguel is half Mexican and I never thought they did with him, what they were doing with Miles.

Liefeld wasn't writing or drawing the Angela title for Marvel. And I don't know why one would say, Liefeld character, not popular. Deadpool and Cable come to mind. Oh look! Popular! I also don't recall Youngblood not being popular.

Like I said, wouldn't be backlash if Miles came in and took some obscure Spider themed hero name and then tried to make that name his own. Scarlet Spider comes to mind. Clone Peter may use the name, but still doesn't have the following. Or just come up with a whole new Spider-themed name for him...The Recluse! Spider-Boy! Spider-Guy! Wolf-Spider! Widow Maker!

Then do those exact same stories. Would you have picked up the coming, with the same story and art, but with him being The Recluse? Or would you have ignored the title? Likely couldn't answer the question truthfully, but it brings back to the point. Might take time to get a new character to click with people, but they don't need to do it by screwing over the originals and their fans.

Not to mention, comics, as I said, were already diverse. Diversity was never the problem. The problem was, the heroes the populace really cared about, tended to be white males, not that there weren't diversity.

Now, let's go with Luke or T'Challa. You say we can't change them to white, without it changing the character. You're likely right with those two. However, Bishop and Blade. Likely two they could change to white males as their race never seemed to be a big part of their story if at all (from what I've read of Blade, it never really came up, and I never really saw it with Bishop at all). You'd still have outrage. So don't expect others to not have outrage for their characters and say "Oh it doesn't matter."

Changing a character matters. :p I'm still one who hates it when Dick Greyson takes on the mantle of Batman. Bruce is Batman and dammit, Dick is awesome as he is, as Nightwing. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Well, see, I tried Miles Spider-Man when it came out (I was already reading Ult Spider-Man with Peter) and really, all I could hope, was Peter came back. I found Miles terrible. The fact that he was an obvious ploy to use Spider-Man's name, because they couldn't make him interesting without stealing another character's name, just made it worse.

Now, if they did a 2099 thing. I wouldn't have minded. Miguel is half Mexican and I never thought they did with him, what they were doing with Miles.

Liefeld wasn't writing or drawing the Angela title for Marvel. And I don't know why one would say, Liefeld character, not popular. Deadpool and Cable come to mind. Oh look! Popular! I also don't recall Youngblood not being popular.

Like I said, wouldn't be backlash if Miles came in and took some obscure Spider themed hero name and then tried to make that name his own. Scarlet Spider comes to mind. Clone Peter may use the name, but still doesn't have the following. Or just come up with a whole new Spider-themed name for him...The Recluse! Spider-Boy! Spider-Guy! Wolf-Spider! Widow Maker!

Then do those exact same stories. Would you have picked up the coming, with the same story and art, but with him being The Recluse? Or would you have ignored the title? Likely couldn't answer the question truthfully, but it brings back to the point. Might take time to get a new character to click with people, but they don't need to do it by screwing over the originals and their fans.

Not to mention, comics, as I said, were already diverse. Diversity was never the problem. The problem was, the heroes the populace really cared about, tended to be white males, not that there weren't diversity.

Now, let's go with Luke or T'Challa. You say we can't change them to white, without it changing the character. You're likely right with those two. However, Bishop and Blade. Likely two they could change to white males as their race never seemed to be a big part of their story if at all (from what I've read of Blade, it never really came up, and I never really saw it with Bishop at all). You'd still have outrage. So don't expect others to not have outrage for their characters and say "Oh it doesn't matter."

Changing a character matters. :p I'm still one who hates it when Dick Greyson takes on the mantle of Batman. Bruce is Batman and dammit, Dick is awesome as he is, as Nightwing. :p

Your points really hit the spot this time.

I think the audience is far more intuitive than anyone gives them credit to be. Just ask any parent who thinks they can hide their moods or their use of swear words from their small children.

It made sense that the black Panther was African, because he came from Africa, duh! The average audience doesn't care about his race then, because it is natural and isn't an issue to be thrown in their face. Likewise with Bishop and Blade from BrandX's examples. But the average audience member is surprisingly quick to notice an effort to instill diversity. For good or ill, those efforts are met with the skepticism they beget. We, the general audience, can tell when someone is trying to impose something upon us, even if we can't identify it consciously. Even if that something is for a higher motive, that doesn't mean it won't be noticed. And human nature states that when someone tries to force us into anything, whether it be a belief, a pit of vipers or a room full of treasure; it is our nature to resist that push.

So when characters are changed by the powers of social justice, people notice and resist, even if they agree with the motives. It is just human nature.

I am reminded of David Brin's amazing Uplift series of books. Truly amazing and mind-blowing classic sci-fi if anyone is interested. I don't want to give too much away; but in the end one of the humans is asked why he resisted such a great opportunity. He exclaimed," you never asked!" And that, right there, sums up human nature better than any phrase I have read before or since.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Do you also hate Hal Jordan

Do you also hate Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, Brand? How about Ted Kord? What about Terry McGinnis?

Ah yes, Youngblood. Who can forget such memorable characters as scowly guy with a gun, scowly guy with a sword, not-wolverine, not-the thing, and big boobs tiny waist girl.

I don't know if there even was a Scarlet Spider in the ultimates line (I had read a good number of early ultimate Spiderman, and the Miles Morales stuff but missed a huge chunk in the middle), and that wouldn't be a bad name for him to have taken on when Peter inevitably returned. Miles didn't call himself Spiderman in the books, other people did. And having the title of the book still be Spiderman helps keep it consistent. Discontinuing the naming of a book only to have the stories and characters continue in another book just seems sloppy. Like those crossover comics where you need to buy like 10 issues spanning across like, 6 different series to get the whole story.

Granted characters such as Bishop and Blade don't have their ethnicity tied as closely to their characters as some others but changing them to white would decrease the already rather small number of non-white heroes. Like you name non-white heroes in DC and Marvel, just of the top of your head, and I bet most people can name five times that number of white heroes.

If I saw a comic called "The Recluse" and wasn't aware it was a new hero stepping into the shoes of Spiderman I probably wouldn't have picked it up. I got started reading Miles Morales because of the "Death of Spiderman" graphic novel. Which, to me, gave Peter a great finish to his character arc. Also aunt May totally slaps Captain America then gives him a stern talking to, it's awesome. Also Miles stepping into the shoes of Spiderman would lose a lot of it's story stuff if he wasn't called Spiderman. A lot of his early stuff is him wondering if he's as good, if he can ever be a hero like the original was. People in the comic have problems with him being Spiderman, his first costume is just a crappy Spiderman Halloween costume. It's all a great read, honestly.

I also have no problem with Dick Grayson being Batman. Him teamed with Damien as Robin is great.

I wish comics changed more. Bruce has been Batman since just before the fourties. Batman is a cool hero. Bruce Wayne is kinda boring. I'd love to see characters grow old and pass the torch to new heroes.

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Yup. Over 100 black heroes

Yup. Over 100 black heroes in Marvel Comics. There's just so few.

Shaft, Badrock, Vogue, Chapel, Die Hard...don't remember the others. Group of heroes, treated like celebrities, not that bad of an idea, but out of them, only Shaft and Badrock stand out to me, with Chapel being the guy who killed Simmons (who turns into Spawn), Vogue and Die Hard just for their looks and names really. I wasn't the Youngblood fan myself :p However, plenty enough were (which is one of the reasons I laugh at people who only NOW complain about Liefeld's art...before he was so well liked).

Ultimate didn't have a Scarlet Spider. He could have used that name and still been taking over for Spider-Man. Him taking over as a new hero could have been seen in the last pages of Ultimate Spider-Man then put into his own new issue #1 and right on the cover it could have easily read "Spider-Man is dead. A new hero will step into his shoes."

Right there, you got all you needed to know, without picking up Ultimate Spider-Man.

Like I said Batman Beyond. He passes the torch to Terry!

Dick Grayson taking over the torch leaves me going "Wasn't he just as awesome as Nightwing? So why change identity?"

As for the change, goes back to, "Then why get upset if Black Panther passes the torch to Bucky Barnes?" :p

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Why Dick take up the mantle?

Why Dick take up the mantle? Because Damien and Tim are too young, and Jason Todd is a maniac.

Likely if Batman was dead for real Dick would only be Batman up until another Robin could take up the mantle.

And also he became Batman because without the fear of the Batman Gotham goes to crap.

Bucky becoming Black Panther wouldn't make much sense. Bucky becoming Captain America does, and Bucky was for a time. Falcon becoming Captain America also makes sense as does Patriot (is he still around in marvel? I like that guy). Another Wakandan becoming Black Panther makes sense, possibly an X-Man taking up the mantle might also (if he's still married to Storm in the comics).

Miles not becoming Spiderman and instead would require a fair bit of reworking his early stories. And it has a bit less impact to the world. And has less of the new person honoring the old hero by taking on the name.

I mean, like, Wally West could have had a different name, but he took up the name to honor the heroes that came before.

Same with all the Legacy heroes, really. Getting rid of that element of comics is just lame. I really like legacy heroes.

Pretty much all of liefeld's designs are awful and lazy, but that's personal opinion.

How many of those "over 100 heroes" are high profile? How many have their name as the comic title? How many Asian heroes? How many Native American heroes? How many middle Eastern? I bet their numbers collectively is a hell of a lot less than the number of white heroes. It's probably a lot less than even just the white male heroes.

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It didn't have to be Bucky,

It didn't have to be Bucky, you obviously missed the point *whoosh...right over the head*. Let's say it was a white boy orphan who grew up in Wakanda then :p

Oh. Now we go right back to what I've been saying. It's not that there is a diversity problem. How many are high profile is the problem. Guess who's fault it is, that a non white male is not popular? It's those not buying the comics when given the option.

Black Panther, probably one of the most recognizable heroes right now and a non white male hero. A movie that's made over 1 billion dollars in 29 (24? I can't recall) days. You're not going to get better advertising than that.

Comic didn't even place in the top 50.

Made one of the most money making movies (16 World Wide and 7 Domestic as of right now), which can only be called a great advertisement for his comic, which is what you said is why they don't get anywhere. Yet, still, couldn't even make it into the top 50, with the best advertising one can get! Billion dollar plus money making movie.

As for Liefeld's designs. Can't say I like them either for the most part. However, point still stands, they were popular and some remain popular (Deadpool and Cable for instance).

As for Ultimate Spider-Man, I would've prefered Transgender Spider-Man to be the legacy for Spider-Man (that would be the clone of Peter who took the name Jessica Drew :p). Oh look! Still Peter, yet not, and we get a transgender super hero who made much more sense to take the mantle...Peter's clone!

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It's not buying comics that's

It's not buying comics that's the problem. Remember, they have to get the comic stores to preorder the comics from the comics companies. How many people know that's what they need to do? I bet new comics fans don't know this. Also how many of those people went to a comic store after the movie then found the comic version of BP way different than the movie? Comics can be hard to get into, that's why marvel started the Ultimate line, that's why DC did the new 52.

So again we come to an INDUSTRY problem.

And it's great we have one high profile character of color. Two if you count Luke Cage. Great, that's two high profile characters of color the non comic buying populous know of. Falcon and War Machine being sidekicks to other heroes (that's what it looks like) so about four altogether... Which is still less than the number of white male characters in the first Avengers movie.

The movies are more popular than the comics they are based on, why is that? Probably because they're well advertised and also don't have a bunch of backstory you need to be aware of (or at least in the movies they explain everything well enough for new comers).

In a perfect world having a white character take over the mantle of a black character wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately we are not in that world. As it stands there are far less roles and role models for non white people so taking away from that already small number is like kicking someone when they're down. White guys already have a crap ton of characters that they can be, so they can share some.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Ultimate Jessica Drew she was already Spider-woman in the comics, and would take a bit of doing to convince people she's Spiderman. I'd love to see a character who's super identity is the other gender, if done well it could be a neat idea. But really? A clone of Peter trying to take up the mantle of Spider-man? The clone saga was a mess, and reminding people of it isn't a great idea. But I'd be fine with that, she was more interesting than Peter was.

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You really think comic shops

You really think comic shops aren't pre-ordering Black Panther? It just released a big budget movie, they pre-ordered. It just isn't selling.

Now, I do love how you moved onto the movies, to talk about the lack of characters of color and then left out Nick Fury. :p

As for not having enough role models. There are plenty of them in the comics. A quick google search will show you that. It goes back to them not selling. Which btw, may just be less of an issue of advertising and more of an issue of straight up culture, upbringing, what have you.

Everyone knows about comic books, even if they may not have known about the different super heroes. Comic books, now a days, have a stigma on them. Nevermind that comics (and cartoons) started out perfectly acceptable for adults, still today, they're considered for kids and usually nerdy/geeky/socially awkward kids at that. Basically the "I'm to cool for that."

As for the Clone Saga, Ultimate Spider-Man did their own clone saga and it was generally regarded as being very good, so I don't see an issue with it. That said, we also come to the fact, they couldn't even leave Miles in the Ultimate universe. They moved him to the 616.

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Ah yes, how could I forget

Ah yes, how could I forget about Nick Fury, oh right, because other than the first Avengers movie and winter soldier, he's very little to do in the movies. Bring him up again when he has his own stand alone movie.

Right, it's the culture that makes people not want to read comics, not the fact that up until very recently that they seemed to be a white boys club. Classic justice league line up? Mostly white males. Classic avengers lineup, again mostly white and male. In the cartoons? White males. It almost seems like to a casual observer that the majority of prominent characters in comics are... White males.

Didn't the ultimate universe stop existing? I'm glad Miles Morales is gaining traction as a character. Induction into the main universe, appearing in cartoons, and is even in that Enter the Spiderverse movie that's coming up.

If comics want to change their image from being a thing just for nerdy white boys then they need to work on it. Advertise! People are coming around to the idea that animation doesn't mean it's for kids (or not just for kids, anyway) and if that can happen for cartoons it can happen for comics. But they need to WORK ON IT.

Also glad to hear someone made a clone saga that worked, there were some good ideas in that mire.

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I love how you bring up the

I love how you bring up the team comics. There's more to comics than team comics.

Don't think Miles is gaining traction myself. His sales are on the decline and the only thing keeping him around is Marvel trying to force him to stay around.

But let's go to your diversity issues. Okay. Let's go with something that isn't a white male superhero, that isn't bringing in the same demographic. Women.

Women are represented in comics. Still not the big demographic bringing in the money.

Agents of SHIELD has Deathlok. He didn't gain popularity or an outcry of "Where are his comics?!" Those watching the movies and shows know these are based on comics. Cloak & Dagger is coming (or has it come, I just got Hulu recently, and I think it's on going to be on Hulu?)

There's been lots of representation in comics forever now. People just weren't buying the comics. They still aren't. You see some new ones start out strong then fade and people go back to the old ones. Silk had a non white non male hero. It's sales were lack luster. They cancelled the comic. However, the internet would have you believe "Oh, people will buy them if they stop the white male lead hero"

I never believed the reason a comic sold was white male hero :p X-Men was one of the most popular comics and it was a diverse team, often lead by black woman.

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Internet comics are doing all

Internet comics are doing all manner of interesting experimental things.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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This is true.

This is true.

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Again Brand, it comes down to

Again Brand, it comes down to ADVERTISING. When did you last see a comic advertised on T.V.? In front of a YouTube video? Online anywhere (like banner ads?) The answer is usually never. How can these comics, that people apparently want, reach their potential buyers? The answer is they don't. Most people DO NOT KNOW THEY EXIST because the comics industry ONLY ADVERTISES TO THEIR PRE-EXISTING AUDIENCE.

This is one of the major reasons why the comics aren't doing that well. The main comics audience is white males. Comics companies only advertise to their pre-existing audience. Can anyone really be surprised that a non white male character doesn't do that well when most of the people who are picking up comics are white men?

The comics industry has an image problem. It has a problem with how it does business. It has a problem with it's treatment of staff (an issue since the beginning). The comics industry has a lot of issues (ha, a pun. Love it.).

And yeah, I mentioned team comics. Because most Superhero shows, cartoons especially, are about Superhero teams. Superhero teams are some of the most popular types of comics.

You say there's a lot of diversity in comics well, I don't see it. Your average person doesn't see it. Probably because, and this is a real shocking point here, THE COMICS INDUSTRY DOESN'T ADVERTISE OUTSIDE OF COMIC SHOPS AND COMICS.

Imagine if the only way you could see advertisements for games in video game stores and in the little leaflets they have in game cases sometimes. How would your average non-gamer find out about any games they might like when the only way to hear about them is to already go to where they're sold or already be buying them?

But no, only Advertising to your pre-existing audience isn't the problem. Nobody likes non-white heroes in comics, I guess. Yeah, that's totally it.

X-MEN appeals to a lot of people. Anyone who's ever felt different, outcast, or what have you, can relate to the X-MEN. And yeah, their teams are usually pretty diverse. And it also sells well because everyone wants to see themselves in a hero. People tend to relate better to people who are like them. It helps them get invested. So no one likely bought a comic thinking "Oh boy a white man, I have to buy this!" But I'm sure many picked them up because the character was "just like me." Peter Parker is a popular character because he's a nerd who gets picked on, on who the world seems to constantly crap upon, he's a white male, just like the majority of people who pick up his comic. Pretty much anyone who reads comics feel a bit like Peter at times. The more you see of yourself in a character the better you can relate to that character, and the more invested you feel.

Cloak and Dagger are getting a show? That's awesome. I still haven't checked out the Runaways show, I don't have Hulu, but I hear it's good. It's great that more and more shows and movies are coming out. Everyone can hopefully find a hero they like.

And with more shows and movies it should bring more people to comics. But this doesn't seem to be the case, which is why we have to question that. People of all kinds flocked to see Black Panther, yet people aren't buying the comics. Could it be the image comics have? Could it be a bunch of gatekeeping nerds who tell others that "they're not real fans"? Could it be the fact that comics aren't advertised anywhere? Hell do people even know that the movies are based on comics that are still being made?

And again I hadn't heard of Silk till you mentioned her on the forums. To which I say again if someone who has an interest in comics doesn't hear about such things how on earth do you expect someone who has no interest in comics to even hear about something that they might have an interest in?

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Everyone knows they exist.

Everyone knows they exist. The movies, the tv shows, FB, Twitter, it's all out there. Everyone knows there's comics out there. They know the movies are based on comics. Every article about the movies makes mention of it.

So all they have to do is go, "I enjoy this superhero, I wonder what the other superheros are."

Silk is rather new, I gave her a chance, her comic was bad and they basically went and said "Oh. Two people got bit by the radioactive spider! Also, she's WAY better than Peter, except she's just getting into the hero business because she was locked away!"

Which is one of the things they need to stop doing, as it looks to just fail the spider themed comics. "Oh! Look! This new hero puts Peter to shame!" Believe they even have a trope or two about such things :p

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I wouldn't say everyone knows

I wouldn't say everyone knows. Does Jessica Jones have a ongoing comic at the moment? I'd assume there would be given her Netflix show, even though if memory serves comic Jessica isn't that much like her Netflix counterpart. I dunno how many of the movies or shows have a current ongoing series in comics, which if they don't have one that'll be disappointing for someone who goes to a comic store looking to read more on the hero they like.

Miles has some different powers, and was bitten by a different spider, I dunno how he stacks up to Peter, I want to say that Miles isn't as strong or as fast (and is definitely less experienced). But yeah, essentially having a new hero who's like x but better is annoying for the fans of the character. At that point it'd be better to retire the character rather than have them overshadowed constantly. Unless the new character turns out to be a bad guy and then it becomes more of a "how can I beat this guy" kind of thing. Sorta like how venom works as a badguy cause he has all Peter's strengths and then more, makes him a very dangerous for, you know?

Brand X
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Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
There are some differences.

There are some differences. Jessica can fly and her and Peter Parker are the same age (even went to school together). The MCU has obviously changed that.

She had her own comic. Now, if I recall correctly, she's part of the Avengers. However, it's been awhile since I picked that title up, as I just didn't care for the Captain America is a Nazi storyline.

Project_Hero
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Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Yeah, Cap should be punching

Yeah, Cap should be punching Nazis not being one.

Making Cap a nazi makes as much sense as having Superman be part of the KKK.

Huckleberry
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Anyone who has ever read

Anyone who has ever read comic books knows that its an addictive pasttime. In the waiting time between issues of your favorites, you pick up others that look like they might be interesting. Before you know it, entire paychecks are signed over to you local neighborhood comics retailer.

So comics doesn't really need to advertise beyond its flagship brands.

The same could be said for nearly any market, from cars to outdoor grilles. Why waste valuable marketing money on anything other than what you know is going to put your name in people's faces and bring people in the door.

But I will agree that other than the movies and TV, there is nothing pointing us to the comics themselves. In fact, if people didn't know that MARVEL was even a comic book publisher, they wouldn't know those movies were about comic book characters. I know I didn't know that Guardians of the Galaxy were comic book characters, or Howard the Duck, or Jessica Jones for that mater. And if I had that level of ignorance, then I bet the average audience member would be even more ignorant of the fact. And that IS a failure of marketing. A missed opportunity to point fan boys and girls towards the paper media.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.