WISH LIST 4: No GEAR!

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AJSB
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WISH LIST 4: No GEAR!

In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo gets a special magical sword and a magic ring. Frodo has no special abilities when he doesn't have these items. When Dungeons and Dragons was being made they kept this in mind by creating a gear system, because it suited the genre. The gear system soon drifted away from each player having one or two special items to having the maximum number of items and turning them in for new ones often. Eventually players wanted to make their own gear, and DM's obliged because it suited the genre. When MMO's came about, they copied this system exactly, because it suited the genre. Let me say this plainly, gear doesn't suit the superhero genre. Batman does not rifle through the Joker's pockets for cash after he beats him. Thor doesn't trade in his hammer for better one every five raids. Superman doesn't talk to Martian Manhunter about how much he needs the new chest plate or how he needs a new left ring. Spawn doesn't say, "Hey guys, wait up! I have to free up some inventory.". Spider-man doesn't swing around the city looking for crafting ingredients. Hellboy doesn't spend time trolling the exchange looking for a good deal on mithiral.

Here is a plain list of the benefits of doing away with gear
1. No grinding for a special piece of gear
2. No inventory to manage
3. No exchange to waste time on
4. No crafting materials to gather
5. No returning to town to sell off your loot
6. No secret chests to try and find
7. No bickering over need/greed/pass
8. No stopping the mission to see what special item you received
9. No crafting skill to level up
10. No merchants to deal with
11. You get to feel like a superhero, not a medieval mercenary who is desperately looking for coins
12. Instead of developing all the gear stats and names, chests, drops, etc, developers can work on actual content updates.
13. More consistent power levels between characters of the same level
14. Players feel like they are getting more powerful instead of just putting on a more powerful outfit

So what's the alternative?

XP. Throughout the game when the characters level up, they get the stat bonuses they normally would get for getting more gear. When they reach end game, the player would pick one of several different stat trees that would confer the same bonuses that end game gear would give. These trees could fall within the confines of the trinity of tank/dps/healer or they could be a little more exotic, like a tree based on Wolverine like regeneration or Ms Marvel power absorption. This would mean that players would just play the game. They wouldn't be stuck in que for one particular type of Mark or gear. They wouldn't try to skip enemies in a dungeon. They can unlock what they want with XP from anywhere and everywhere. You could even set up the system so you could que which item you want next, so when you level up you can keep playing without stopping to fumble with your abilities.

What do you think? Is gear worth all the hassle? Is there something I'm not seeing?

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You are absolutely right

You are absolutely right about everything you said about the various comic characters. However, if YOU were writing those comics how much would change? I've seen Thor go into battle wearing everything from his normal outfit to various suits of armor. Now he's tough but there's no way you can tell me that an Asgardian breastplate wouldn't add a bit of protection there. Batman in the movies wears armor and truth be told for the comicbook version NOT to is a bit dim considering the level of gadgetry he carries. Superman has used armored suits and even vehicles in the past. Spiderman's web-shooters ARE gadgets and have been from the first.

Not everything in printed media works for other media. Some things in books don't work on the big screen. Many players want and even expect some sort of crafting system and if CoT doesn't have one it's doomed before it leaves the gate.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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In CoH, it always felt odd to

In CoH, it always felt odd to me that my non-Ranged character couldn't pick up and use the firearms wielded by the bad guys.

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When it comes to gear and

When it comes to gear and superhero MMO games the only real rule of thumb I want them to adhere to is the fundamental concept that "costume items should never provide or directly contribute to any character powers or abilities". This is the only way to ensure total costume freedom - as long as no costume item provides any in-game advantages then people we be free to wear anything they want without limitation or restriction.

The beauty of "costumes have no effect on powers" is obvious in a superhero setting - if you want a tech-based character to shoot "energy beams from their hands" you can wear big metal gloves to "explain" where the beams are coming from but if you want a magic-based character with energy beams you can simply not have any gloves on because the energy is coming from the magic, not tech. Powers are then totally free to be based on your character concept, not on which helmet or belt you're wearing.

Beyond that I see no reason why we couldn't have lootable weapons or other devices which might provide other benefits. CoH had plenty of "temp powers" which manifested themselves as weapons or travel devices (like jet packs). These could easily be droppable as loot/gear or craftable in the traditional MMO sense. The difference between this and traditional MMOs is again maintained by your character concept; if it's done right crafting will be 100% optional in CoT and won't be required to maximize any character. This worked well in CoH where it allowed you to either craft many of the Enhancers/temp powers you wanted or you could just buy/find them without any crafting.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Although we do not yet know

Although we do not yet know what the final form will be, we do know there will be a system of enhancing our powers, currently called Boosts. Although these would not strictly speaking be gear, they would conceivably be bought from merchants, and drop from enemies or as a mission complete reward, just like enhancements in CoH did.

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I hate this idea.

I hate this idea.

I love gear.. or more accurately I love to hate to love gear. Getting it is such a chore sometimes.. but it's one of the few lasting moments of gratification in a MMO. Getting to level 30 is going to be fun. Once there I still want to experience growth and diversification in my character.

I DO advocate the community take change our lexicon and start calling it "training" instead of "gear" because one thing I will agree with is how lame wearing a bracer making me smarter feels in a superhero game.

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Lothic
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I hate this idea.
I love gear.. or more accurately I love to hate to love gear. Getting it is such a chore sometimes.. but it's one of the few lasting moments of gratification in a MMO. Getting to level 30 is going to be fun. Once there I still want to experience growth and diversification in my character.
I DO advocate the community take change our lexicon and start calling it "training" instead of "gear" because one thing I will agree with is how lame wearing a bracer making me smarter feels in a superhero game.

CoH called its primary form of gear "Enhancments" for 8.5 years and that worked well enough. Sounds like CoT will call the same thing "Boosts" - again that seems to be a reasonable word for a superhero setting.

Even though these things served as the functional equivalents to "gear" it was never really confusing to not directly use that word in CoH so I'm not going to worry about using Boosts instead of "gear" either.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Because I like nomenclature

Because I like nomenclature (it separates man from beast and is the father of science)

Boosts seem to reference something temporary and not earned while training references something permanent and earned.

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Lothic
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Because I like nomenclature (it separates man from beast and is the father of science)
Boosts seem to reference something temporary and not earned while training references something permanent and earned.

Discuss your concern here with the CoT Devs then. As far as I know they've currently settled on the term "Boosts". *shrugs*

Regardless I think you would probably agree that no game term for this kind of thing would likely please everyone. For instance the term "Training" is not a descriptive noun, and even if it was wouldn't seem to apply to inherently magical or mutant creatures who wouldn't "train" up powers they already possess the same way Batman might "train" his fighting skills.

The term "Boosts" once again might not be perfect but does seem generic enough to cover all of the various things imaginable in a superhero setting.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm all for No Gear. I hated

I'm all for No Gear. I hated having to get Gear in WoW. I hated having gear degrade over time. I hated gear getting damaged and having to repair it all the time. I hated out leveling gear. I hated having gear I couldn't use because I was the wrong class. I hated not being able to give my friends gear I received because it was account bound or character bound. I hated how wearing certain gear would change the way my character looked. I hated having to have extra gear in my backpack so I could make what gear I was wearing look like that gear. I completely loathe having gear.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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I'm for no gear in general.

I'm for no gear in general.

Or I should say I'm against the typical gear mechanic you see in Fantasy/Sword and Sorcery and other MMORPGs in general.

Grinding sucks (my opinion YMMV etc.) and armor and gear does not usually play a dominant role in comics--though of course it exists.

So I should amend and say I'm for no gear AS A PRIMARY MECHANIC. Optional gear here and there or a supplementary system in the game could be fun if handled well.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

I'm all for No Gear. I hated having to get Gear in WoW. I hated having gear degrade over time. I hated gear getting damaged and having to repair it all the time. I hated out leveling gear. I hated having gear I couldn't use because I was the wrong class. I hated not being able to give my friends gear I received because it was account bound or character bound. I hated how wearing certain gear would change the way my character looked. I hated having to have extra gear in my backpack so I could make what gear I was wearing look like that gear. I completely loathe having gear.

This perfectly sums up how I feel about gear and another reason why CoX was such a breath of fresh air. Boosts, enhancements, thingamajigs and doohickies.. really don't care what term is settled on but the method we had was really beautiful.

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< Edna Mode >No Gear!

< Edna Mode >
No Gear!
< /Edna Mode >

Be Well!
Fireheart

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Because I like nomenclature (it separates man from beast and is the father of science)
Boosts seem to reference something temporary and not earned while training references something permanent and earned.

I agree, but I don't really have a better idea. "boosts" seems more like inspirations than enhancements, "power-ups" and "upgrades" are the other ones I can come up with off the top of my head.

"Power-Ups" is frankly, lame, and carries some of the same issues as Boosts, it's also a bit too broad.

"Upgrades" also implies it's something larger than boosting a power/stat.

To quote lothic *shrugs*

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Doesn't matter much to me

Doesn't matter much to me what they are called, as long as I don't have to search bodies for the stuff and we can avoid the whole "need or greed" scenario by handling drops the way CoX did.

Also, +1 to Lothic's very important point about divorcing appearance from ability. I lost count of the number of times in SWTOR that I decided to keep my character at a disadvantage because the more powerful bit of armour looked ridiculous and I refused to embarrass myself by wearing it. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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It is worth noting that

It is worth noting that depending on the game, there are ways around this.

Guild Wars 2 has the transmutation stones... Wildstar has the costume slots.... SWTOR had the enhancements not linked to the *clothing* items itself, but to modifications that you could add and remove from the armour.

*edit* And for most of the "gear based" MMO's, as long as you were above the minimum level to equip the item, it never expired...

Unlike CoX where the *longest* you could use a normal enhancement (IO's not included) was 7 levels (going from .+3 to your level and getting worse and worse, less and less of a bonus, till -3 to your level when it could then go poof).

The repairing of gear for a superhero MMO can be explained in several different methods (general rest and relaxation, repairing/resharpening of weapons, going back to meditate etc etc).... but the whole "repairing of gear" is a done as a cash sink.

Hell CoX's was that you had to replace your TO's/DO's and SO's every few levels...

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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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CO's gear is just stat boxes

CO's gear is just stat boxes and has no effect on your character, and only if you assume it means your character is wearing it, is your character wearing it. I never thought my character was wearing any of CO's gear. Like I had stated, they where just stat boosts.

I think CoT should take a look at WS and modify that for them. It has a bit of everything and is setup for all types of players.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CO's gear is just stat boxes and has no effect on your character, and only if you assume it means your character is wearing it, is your character wearing it. I never thought my character was wearing any of CO's gear. Like I had stated, they where just stat boosts.
I think CoT should take a look at WS and modify that for them. It has a bit of everything and is setup for all types of players.

I've never played Wildstar--how does it's system work?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Wildstars is fairly easy:

Wildstars is fairly easy:

You have your normal gear, and then you have costume slots.

Items in the costume slots give you *NO* stat bonuses... it is only those in the equipment slots. So if you find (as you go through the game) a set of items that you like the look of, you can put them into your costume slot as you replace them with your "better items" if you wanted.

Oh, and items that are in your costume slot? They don't take up any extra storage space.

What this basically boils down to is that if you get a weapon early on that you like the look of, you can keep it for the rest of the game... or you can get someone to craft you items a well...

Guild Wars 2 version is slightly different, as it requires "transmuation stones" and also destroys the items that you are combining (basically you end up with an item of the look that you want, with the stats of the weapon that you are combining it with).

I prefer the Wildstar version myself to be honest.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Sounds similar to TSW and

Sounds similar to TSW and DCUO, maybe with better convenience.

Hmmm... I think I still prefer the old CoH way, but to each their own :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Old CoH way is the best. I

Old CoH way is the best. I hate having to find what looks "cool" and then finding something else that looks "cool". I'd rather I just set my character the way I wanted it from the start and then go from there. Don't want to have to keep swapping out gear so I can get the "right" look.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Some things gear usually

Some things gear usually offers:

- Bonuses to customize your character further
- Incentive to spend currency on (Purchasing, Maintenance, Selling)
- Incentive to explore or to do a particular raid, mission, or event
- Product of a craft
- Byproduct of salvage to support a craft
- Decay: Gets people to revisit content, thus helping others obtain items later. Item-sink

Without gear, what good is the game’s currency? Would there be anything desirable to purchase? Why should you attend this really difficult raid? I would assume without gear, more costume pieces, and perhaps even costume slots itself, would become acquired through the content to create an incentive to buy/sell pieces. Gear itself, was usually a goal-setter, to keep playing after the maximum level or to explore new content because it has something valuable to offer.

Personally, I liked City of Hero’s enhancement system, particularly because it did not influence by costume appearance. Yet, it still provided bonuses to enhance my abilities.

On a slightly offtopic note, what purposes would this game’s currency be for? If something is rare, and a player does not wish to acquire it through doing certain content, purchasing was usually an option.

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My point was a bit

My point was a bit misunderstood and was my fault entirely. :p I agree, costumes should just be costumes. But I did think what WS offers in the terms of everything, including gear how to obtain, general everything is great. Really has a feel (imo) of working for lots of different type of players and the devs have great attitudes, reminds me of CoH devs, but more willing to say "To bad" when it comes to some things.

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The Devs have already said

The Devs have already said that everything in game will be able to be purchased by either In Game Currency or Real Money. So there will be plenty of things to sink the money we make in game on. See a costume you like? Go buy it with In Game Currency. See a Hover Board you want? Go buy it. We don't need Gear to sink currency on. I'm pretty sure the Devs will have plenty of items for us to waste our money on besides all that.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

The Devs have already said that everything in game will be able to be purchased by either In Game Currency or Real Money. So there will be plenty of things to sink the money we make in game on. See a costume you like? Go buy it with In Game Currency. See a Hover Board you want? Go buy it. We don't need Gear to sink currency on. I'm pretty sure the Devs will have plenty of items for us to waste our money on besides all that.

Well, I mean, CoH had IO's and components. It wasn't the typical gearz and armor, but I sure sold a lot of drops that I didn't want to turn around and spend a bundle on that IO I wanted.

And I didn't mind so much because IO's weren't just MOAR POWAH through stats or base numbers, but they helped me sculpt my hero to fit my ideal playstyle and concept better. I LOVED IO's that added powers and effects rather than just increased base stats.

While coming from comic books rather than gaming the whole thing struck me as odd at first, I did like the way they couched it as "influence" as a recognized hero and as a system for getting heroes the best help to increase their powers--rather than money and armor.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Oh I agree. I completely

Oh I agree. I completely loved buying enhancements and Invention Origin enhancements. That was perfect for me in regards to money sinks and what have you. But I can't stand NW, WoW, DCUO, etc. Gear. I am completely all for using the Enhancement and IO system CoH had as far as boosting up your character.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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My preference is that my hero

My preference is that my hero's ability comes from within himself and is not dependent on strapping on the right gizmo.

My problem with 'gear' in general is that First I have to Find the 'plus-5 thing of whiz-bang', or buy it from a store, or pay money for the pseudo-currency used to purchase it from the game-store. And then, damit, I have to replace my 'plus 5 thing of whiz-bang' with a newer, better model, after only a few levels. Or, almost worse, I have to collect and craft the 'ultra-thing-a-matizer' to convert my whiz-bang into a Bang-whiz-bang... again, after just a few levels. If I don't continually replace my gear, then I risk falling behind and becoming a famous Gimp.

Even more, with gear, I'm not struggling with just One item, but a hat and a jacket and pants and belt and suspenders and shoes and wrist-watch and earrings and rings and... a Dozen different things. And then the next patch comes out and all of my gear becomes irrelevant, compared to the new shiny.

And that doesn't even Begin to touch the gods-awful Crafting stink-hole grind-fest necessary to support all of the gear. Which means you need to maintain a veritable army of crafting specialists, because you need Wood and Metal and Textiles and Chemicals and OTHER Metal and Leather and Gems and etc, etc, etc...

When do I get to BE A HERO, if I'm spending all, of my time Crafting?? Or, no, I can't just play any mission I want to, I have to go into the Cave of Pain over and over and over in order to have a chance of picking up the Special Thing, because, if I don't, well, I'll have to wear the big sign with 'NOOB' on it, in brightly flashing colors.

City of Heroes simplified all of that.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I think training (gear) is a

I think training (gear) is a great metagame. It's not for everyone but I don't want to see it as non-existent as it was in CoH.

I don't think it should be more than say 15% variance in builds with the worst to the best - which is to say it should not "define" your experience if you choose not to compete in that particular metagame.

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CoH Style Enhancement (aka

CoH Style Enhancement (aka Boosts) = YES
WOW/SWTOR Gear = No

I don't mind if a costume can also have a Boost attached as long as that boost can be found on other costumes.
Tech Helmet of Accuracy = +15% ToHit
There should also be other origin looking costumes that can also have this exact bonus (monocle, crystal, etc). And maybe a way to Transfer the bonus. So you find the Tech Helmet of Accuracy and already have a Ioun Stone (crystal that floats around your head from DnD :)). Allow me to visit a Store that will transfer the Bonus from the Helmet to my Ioun Stone (for a cost of course :)).

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This sounds beautiful.

This sounds beautiful.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

CoH Style Enhancement (aka Boosts) = YES
WOW/SWTOR Gear = No
I don't mind if a costume can also have a Boost attached as long as that boost can be found on other costumes.
Tech Helmet of Accuracy = +15% ToHit
There should also be other origin looking costumes that can also have this exact bonus (monocle, crystal, etc). And maybe a way to Transfer the bonus. So you find the Tech Helmet of Accuracy and already have a Ioun Stone (crystal that floats around your head from DnD :)). Allow me to visit a Store that will transfer the Bonus from the Helmet to my Ioun Stone (for a cost of course :)).

I understand the motivation to want to attach in-game bonuses to costume items. It's a fundamental concept in many MMOs and has its origins in pen-n-paper RPGs that began decades ago.

But I really have reassert my strong opinion that in a superhero MMO like CoT costumes items should not have ANY effect on powers and abilities. One of the core strengths of CoH that made it a game worth wanting to return to was the fact that you could create a character whose costume could look ANY way imaginable without any impact to your overall capabilities. Players never had to make ugly choices like "Do I want that +15% ToHit bonus enough to put up with that stupid looking helmet that doesn't match the rest of my outfit at all?"

Now I heard what you said about the possiblity of being able to "transfer" bonuses to different costume items and I'm well aware there are other ways to work around this issue (for example in ESO the game allows you to specifically "hide" your helmet so you can run around with the benefit of wearing a helmet without obscuring your entire face/head). But all of those compromises are at best sub-optimal and still force your to have to juggle around with "gear" that often times makes little sense in a Superhero setting. What happens if you want to play an alt that has multiple costumes? Would you suddenly have to worry about which bonuses you transferred to which costumes? That would an annoyance at the very least and possibly a means to unbalance the game at the very worst.

CoH made the right decision in sticking to its core paradigm of "costume items have absolutely no effect on powers". It would actually be very disappointing if CoT chose to break that rule and become just like every other gear-oriented MMO. I'm not against characters getting temporary items/devices that might give them bonuses, but permanent costume items never should.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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The first MMO I tried was WoW

The first MMO I tried was WoW, the second was GW, and then I found CoH. The reason why I stuck with CoH was because of the lack of Gear. I didn't have to run around all of Supreme Being's Creation gathering up materials that I needed to then go back to town to refine and then craft into some kind of weak item to use on my character because I couldn't afford to buy the Awesomesauce Supreme Item of I Win! I didn't have to buy several Dye packs in order to color each item I wanted just so I could get my costume to look the way I wanted it to look, instead of looking like some raggedy homeless pauper claiming to be a hero. After each level up I didn't have to compare what I had at the moment to some new gadget that I just picked up to see if the stats on it were better than the stats I currently have now.

In City I knew that without any enhancements I had a base 50% chance of hitting an enemy that would do a base amount of X damage, regardless. If I slotted enhancements then I could up those percentages to make it better. I had 7 levels to work with when it came to purchasing those enhancements. Furthermore, up until at least level 22 I really didn't even need to use enhancements and could just use whatever dropped at the time I was playing. So that gave me 22 levels to save up my money to buy enhancements. By the time I hit 22 I usually had enough money saved up that I could buy all the enhancements I need to put in my powers. Once I hit that magic level the enemies I defeated and the missions I completed rewarded me with enough money to purchase further enhancements.

Now granted that got better after a few issues after they changed the XP and money curve a little bit, but it was still possible even in the early game to do this you just had to street sweep a little bit longer to get enough to do it. I really enjoyed that CoH was more about having fun and playing a game than it was min/maxing the best gear to stats ratio in order to go participate in a certain event that everybody would laugh at you and mock you if you couldn't do. So again, I reiterate, NO GEAR.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

My preference is that my hero's ability comes from within himself and is not dependent on strapping on the right gizmo.
My problem with 'gear' in general is that First I have to Find the 'plus-5 thing of whiz-bang', or buy it from a store, or pay money for the pseudo-currency used to purchase it from the game-store. And then, damit, I have to replace my 'plus 5 thing of whiz-bang' with a newer, better model, after only a few levels. Or, almost worse, I have to collect and craft the 'ultra-thing-a-matizer' to convert my whiz-bang into a Bang-whiz-bang... again, after just a few levels. If I don't continually replace my gear, then I risk falling behind and becoming a famous Gimp.
Even more, with gear, I'm not struggling with just One item, but a hat and a jacket and pants and belt and suspenders and shoes and wrist-watch and earrings and rings and... a Dozen different things. And then the next patch comes out and all of my gear becomes irrelevant, compared to the new shiny.
And that doesn't even Begin to touch the gods-awful Crafting stink-hole grind-fest necessary to support all of the gear. Which means you need to maintain a veritable army of crafting specialists, because you need Wood and Metal and Textiles and Chemicals and OTHER Metal and Leather and Gems and etc, etc, etc...
When do I get to BE A HERO, if I'm spending all, of my time Crafting?? Or, no, I can't just play any mission I want to, I have to go into the Cave of Pain over and over and over in order to have a chance of picking up the Special Thing, because, if I don't, well, I'll have to wear the big sign with 'NOOB' on it, in brightly flashing colors.
City of Heroes simplified all of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart

*snif* Finally somebody GETS me!

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
My preference is that my hero's ability comes from within himself and is not dependent on strapping on the right gizmo.
My problem with 'gear' in general is that First I have to Find the 'plus-5 thing of whiz-bang', or buy it from a store, or pay money for the pseudo-currency used to purchase it from the game-store. And then, damit, I have to replace my 'plus 5 thing of whiz-bang' with a newer, better model, after only a few levels. Or, almost worse, I have to collect and craft the 'ultra-thing-a-matizer' to convert my whiz-bang into a Bang-whiz-bang... again, after just a few levels. If I don't continually replace my gear, then I risk falling behind and becoming a famous Gimp.
Even more, with gear, I'm not struggling with just One item, but a hat and a jacket and pants and belt and suspenders and shoes and wrist-watch and earrings and rings and... a Dozen different things. And then the next patch comes out and all of my gear becomes irrelevant, compared to the new shiny.
And that doesn't even Begin to touch the gods-awful Crafting stink-hole grind-fest necessary to support all of the gear. Which means you need to maintain a veritable army of crafting specialists, because you need Wood and Metal and Textiles and Chemicals and OTHER Metal and Leather and Gems and etc, etc, etc...
When do I get to BE A HERO, if I'm spending all, of my time Crafting?? Or, no, I can't just play any mission I want to, I have to go into the Cave of Pain over and over and over in order to have a chance of picking up the Special Thing, because, if I don't, well, I'll have to wear the big sign with 'NOOB' on it, in brightly flashing colors.
City of Heroes simplified all of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart

*snif* Finally somebody GETS me!

+1 to y'all & Static & Lothic

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

WarBird wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
My preference is that my hero's ability comes from within himself and is not dependent on strapping on the right gizmo.
My problem with 'gear' in general is that First I have to Find the 'plus-5 thing of whiz-bang', or buy it from a store, or pay money for the pseudo-currency used to purchase it from the game-store. And then, damit, I have to replace my 'plus 5 thing of whiz-bang' with a newer, better model, after only a few levels. Or, almost worse, I have to collect and craft the 'ultra-thing-a-matizer' to convert my whiz-bang into a Bang-whiz-bang... again, after just a few levels. If I don't continually replace my gear, then I risk falling behind and becoming a famous Gimp.
Even more, with gear, I'm not struggling with just One item, but a hat and a jacket and pants and belt and suspenders and shoes and wrist-watch and earrings and rings and... a Dozen different things. And then the next patch comes out and all of my gear becomes irrelevant, compared to the new shiny.
And that doesn't even Begin to touch the gods-awful Crafting stink-hole grind-fest necessary to support all of the gear. Which means you need to maintain a veritable army of crafting specialists, because you need Wood and Metal and Textiles and Chemicals and OTHER Metal and Leather and Gems and etc, etc, etc...
When do I get to BE A HERO, if I'm spending all, of my time Crafting?? Or, no, I can't just play any mission I want to, I have to go into the Cave of Pain over and over and over in order to have a chance of picking up the Special Thing, because, if I don't, well, I'll have to wear the big sign with 'NOOB' on it, in brightly flashing colors.
City of Heroes simplified all of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart

*snif* Finally somebody GETS me!

+1 to y'all & Static & Lothic

Agreed. ++

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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NO GEAR!!!!! REALLY ???? that

NO GEAR!!!!! REALLY ???? that i will not agree.... ok, you can replace gear for itens , like in champions before reloaded update..... I commment in other threath that would be amazing if your char have a origin-research-path (missions,history and enemies,unlocks,skill animation)system....

choose between 3 Science, Myticism or Training..... after this choose the sub paths....

1)Science

- Engineering
- Biotechnology

2)Mysticism

- Alchemy
- Witchcraft

3)Training

- Mind
- Body

my idea is to choose one primary and one secundary research-path:

exemple my iron man char could get 1st- Engineering 2nd- Mind..... a Batman like char could get 1stBody 2nd Engineering a Wolverine char - 1st Body 2nd Biotechnology..... you can fit any hero or villain you imagine with 2 research- paths

the research path determines the kind of enemies ,villaind,PLACES you will fight: ex ... a BODY char will fight gangs, tugs, fight in dojos, fight as a vigillant ... an Engineering guy will fight robots, cyborgs... a Biotechnology guy fight againts anti-mutant agencies...

THIS way.. you feel like your char has a different origen, different missions
get itens thorught the miisons, take that itens to your hideout, research , mix then in your lab/temple(whatever) .... get more powerfull itens...
I remember 6 slots for itens on CO before reloaded....... theese itens were dna mutations, black belts, gens, armor pieces.. ( linked to your reserch theme)... not gears...

if you have a some kind of lab INSIDE your hideout, you have a true purpose to go there,and i think that a themed research will be very fun....
I sugest you can put youur vehicles, old armors... gadges on your hideout....

YOUR research path unlocks costume pieces, auras, itens, gadges, devices, vehicles, skill animations, THIS idea would enhace your experience, fun in the game....

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I think you're missing the

I think you're missing the point. Your powers are in your character, they are not attached to your costume. Your costume is static. You are Superman/woman and there is no reason to change your clothes. Unless you chose to.

You do not need to collect things to make your costume better.

You do not have to choose one of a list of crafting paths, there is only One crafting path and crafting Skill is irrelevant. No slots for gear, no gear to upgrade. No resource nodes to find.

There is no limit to what enemies you have or what place you can go, or what fights you can join. NO LIMITS!

Nothing to keep you from being the hero.

Mechaman and Ironman and Omegaman and Captain No-pants can all have the exact same powersets. They are not limited by origin, or extra skill-system, or whether they have TV Remote.

NO GEAR!

Cast off those outdated limits and be free!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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How do you propose enhancing

How do you propose enhancing or customizing abilities to ones playstyle? Should old abilities just become obsolete?

What would serve as a reward where a piece of "gear" was usually provided?

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Count me in the "YES Gear!"

Count me in the "YES Gear!" group.

As with any metagame.. if you don't want to compete you don't have to (see PvP, RP, Lore/Perks, Stats, Costuming Contests, Raids, etc). Advocating for the elimination of what has come to be a standard in RPG gameplay is counter productive to me.

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I think the folks who want no

I think the folks who want no gear are happy with the kind of gear we had in CoX: items that allowed you to increase and tailor your powers, but ones that were invisible because they were completely 100% divorced from appearance and dropped automatically with no looting or competing to acquire at drop point. That, at least, is what I hope to see in CoT.

To me, trying to create a new game in the spirit of an old game that was loved so much because it didn't blindly follow all the other MMOs and then adding stuff just because it is in other MMOs is counter-productive. Just look at the threads here and on Titan Network discussing other MMOs and see how many comments there are expressing dissatisfaction with the fact that most other MMOs seem to have jumped on the "me too" bandwagon.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'm beginning to wonder how

I'm beginning to wonder how many people that are posting actually played CoH or just kind of dabbled in it a little bit. None of your "Abilities" ever became obsolete in CoH, you just got more "Abilities". The rewards that we obtained through drops were enhancements, which could be used to boost our "Abilities". And when I say "Abilities", I really mean powers.

That was one of the beauties of CoH. We just kept getting stronger. We never had any powers become obsolete, or have no need to ever use them again. Every power that was taken could be used or had a use. Our builds were never a cookie cutter build. Some people would Min/Max the builds, others would build according to what they liked and how they liked to play. There were enough power choices to make it interesting and unique to an individual if they so desired. Just because I built a Defender a certain way and played it a certain way, didn't mean that anybody else would do the same.

My costumes were MY costumes. Rarely did I ever see 14 people all standing around wearing the same "Armor" as the next person only with a different color because they used a dye pack on it to make it "different".

As Cinnder pointed out, making something just because everybody else does it is lame. Making something unique and interesting is better. If I wanted to play a game that was just like WoW, why wouldn't I just go play WoW? That was the beauty of CoH. It wasn't like all the other MMO's. It was it's own MMO. That's what I'd like to see CoT do. Be something other than what is already out there. I don't want to play WoW. I don't want to play CO. I don't want to play DCUO. I don't want to play GW. I don't want to play SWTOR. Why would I want CoT to be ANYTHING like them? Those games bore me with their tediousness of having to gather materials, refine them, then craft them. Only to craft something that pretty much becomes obsolete the moment I go level my character up to the next level. I don't want to spend hours upon hours running all over a map trying to farm some kind of material, then hours crafting. I'd rather be punching bad guys in the face.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

How do you propose enhancing or customizing abilities to ones playstyle? Should old abilities just become obsolete?
What would serve as a reward where a piece of "gear" was usually provided?

Static covered this, I 100% agree with him. Customization of abilities comes in the form of power and weapon customization, and enhancement comes in the form of boosts. One of which is fashion no function, the other is function no fashion.

This should be a game where fashion and function are completely different realms of little, if any, interconnection.

Honestly, who of this thread played CoH? I don't mean to exclude those who didn't, please COME ON IN, PLEASE! (no sarcasm). But It'd be wise to clarify our perspectives on MMO gaming and how CoH did work and how CoT will/should work.

I played CoH from issue 8 to issue 20, then dad couldn't pay for the game anymore and well...high school got harder. I enjoyed nearly every aspect of it and see CoT's potential to fix all the things CoH did wrong. That being said, CoH is the only real MMO i've played, I have zero experience with WoW, RS, Tabula Rasa, etc.

I think enhancements and inspirations in CoH were done very well, and the design paradigm of fashion OR function serves very well in a superhero MMO.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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I believe you misunderstood.

I believe you misunderstood.

Enhancements were City of Heros’ form of “gear”. Nobody here is requesting to have bonuses bound to pieces that will influence our costume appearance.
Players made careful planning to customize their abilities to their desire with enhancements. Whether that be tweaking its recharge time, damage, accuracy, endurance-cost, etc. An ability could become somewhat obsolete without the use of enhancements. The beauty of the enhancement system is simply customization.

Are you guys expecting to see abilities scale to your level? With no way to alter its accuracy, damage, or recharge rates and such yourself?

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There's alot of things I

There's alot of things I liked about City of Heroes. The gear isn't one of them.

I hear and respect the desires of those that want no gear, but I don't see danger in new systems that are successful in other games (gear being one of them). Many may accuse me of not wanting to be true to City of Heroes, and they'd be right.

I love Valiance Online.. but I do not want a re-skin of CoH. I want the successor (the one who learned from its infancy)

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Sometimes infants learn that

Sometimes infants learn that what their parents taught them was actually correct. If they're lucky, they can do this without having to go through a painful rebellious adolescence where they try to be like all of the people they know at school before they learn this valuable lesson.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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What advantage is there to

What advantage is there to cosmetic gear over invisible gear in a create-your-own superhero MMO (or of any other genre)?

Note: A gear-based character (techie, robot-heavy, gunner, etc.), his "gear" is his powers, and the gear that is a power isn't the gear we're talking about here. Even Kevlar armour should be a power for such a toon, not gear.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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I believe everyone knows that

I believe everyone knows that there will be boosts in the game, so let us leave those out of the discussion.

Given that gear determines appearance is "what has come to be a standard in RPG gameplay", how do those who advocate gear envision this system to work without rendering the avatar builder an exercise in futility?

- - - - -
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"Gear" in the form of

"Gear" in the form of enhancements to powers and global enhancements to my character's stats, with no effect on appearance, is my strong preference - essentially, the CoH model with minor tweaks to fix the complaints, such as the excessive duplication and non-intuitive naming of origin-specific SOs, and a few IO sets with obviously pointless bonuses. The CoH model left a huge amount of room for crafting, character customization, and min/maxing via IOs, and it did allow some costume items to be rewarded from specific content. Anyone who wishes to roleplay their Natural / Tech character buying or improving their "gear" and causing this to affect their costume can still do so, of course.

Static said it better than I, but I wanted to chime in with my opinion.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

There's alot of things I liked about City of Heroes. The gear isn't one of them.
I hear and respect the desires of those that want no gear, but I don't see danger in new systems that are successful in other games (gear being one of them). Many may accuse me of not wanting to be true to City of Heroes, and they'd be right.
I love Valiance Online.. but I do not want a re-skin of CoH. I want the successor (the one who learned from its infancy)

CoH lasted 8.5 years without jumping on the same "gear bandwagon" that virtually every other MMO blindly adheres to. I think it's very safe to say that "CoH not having the same type of gear system as every other game out there" was NOT the main reason why it got shut down.

You use words that imply CoH was an "infant game" because it chose to follow a unique and fresh paradigm that wasn't lockstep to the same gear mentality that first appeared in RPGs 40 years ago. I would argue the exact opposite - CoH was refreshingly popular precisely because it chose to evolve past its reliance on the old gear concepts and managed to come up with a system for advancement that made much more sense for a Superhero setting. Superman doesn't craft new capes to get another +0.6% bonus to fire resistance - think about it.

So while I hear and respect your desire to want to see CoT have the same tired and inappropriate system for gear that every other game uses I frankly hope that you will be VERY disappointed with CoT in that regard.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm PRO having some form of

I'm PRO having some form of enhancement slots in powers that can then have enhancers put into them to give range, accuracy, damage, etc bonuses. I'm even PRO having IO sets that give global bonuses and PRO salvage and recipes. I'm ANTI anything like most MMOs have where you have to grind incessantly for widgets in order to get your widgeteering skill up to the point where you can then make a Cape of Widgetism +5 so as to be able to not get one-shotted by the archvillain in the hot new content. Even the limited way in which CoH had this, for as long as that lasted, was bad. I'm talking about SG base salvage and components. Let's NOT have that, shall we. And of course this discussion begins and ends with the assumed disclaimer "Gear does not affect appearance". Don't get me wrong, I still want to have powers like "Gun" and "Other Gun" etc I just want to be able to make them LOOK how I want independently of what gear I'm using to enhance their stats.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I'm PRO having some form of enhancement slots in powers that can then have enhancers put into them to give range, accuracy, damage, etc bonuses. I'm even PRO having IO sets that give global bonuses and PRO salvage and recipes. I'm ANTI anything like most MMOs have where you have to grind incessantly for widgets in order to get your widgeteering skill up to the point where you can then make a Cape of Widgetism +5 so as to be able to not get one-shotted by the archvillain in the hot new content. Even the limited way in which CoH had this, for as long as that lasted, was bad. I'm talking about SG base salvage and components. Let's NOT have that, shall we. And of course this discussion begins and ends with the assumed disclaimer "Gear does not affect appearance". Don't get me wrong, I still want to have powers like "Gun" and "Other Gun" etc I just want to be able to make them LOOK how I want independently of what gear I'm using to enhance their stats.

You summed it up perfectly there.

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City of Heroes came around

City of Heroes came around mostly before MMOs came into their own, before WoW even. It didn't have many current systems like gear, raids and others that became popular/staples after the game had come out. I would never supported City of Heroes adding a gear mechanic because that would drastically effect the build/combat of the game and without good reason.

But I am not talking about City of Heroes, I'm talking about City of Titans. A game that is coming in 2016 and not 2003. I think it's worth asking "why is ____ a popular game mechanic in MMOs". The answer may be money, it may be a time-sink, it may be a community driven metagame.

- -

I am not advocating gear or any kind of "widget" that is picked up and affects the appearance of a character. I am advocating for a Character Modifier System (I call it Training) that amplifies the Character Attributes on a Character Level (Not on a Powers Level). It doesn't have to use stats (Recovery, Intelligence etc) but I would be used to differentiate how a build performs (Accuracy, Movement Speed .. whatever the game eventually uses). The overall variance doesn't have to be great (10-15%) but the benefits of having such a system outweigh my desire to recreate CoH.

Benefits include:
Gaining a time sink
Gaining a trade currency
Gaining something that MMO players at large find familiar
Gaining character individualization (the numbers, not necessarily appearance)
Gaining Revenue (trading cash currency for training in exchange)

there are probably more benefits but those are the first that come to mind

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

City of Heroes came around mostly before MMOs came into their own, before WoW even. It didn't have many current systems like gear, raids and others that became popular/staples after the game had come out. I would never supported City of Heroes adding a gear mechanic because that would drastically effect the build/combat of the game and without good reason.
But I am not talking about City of Heroes, I'm talking about City of Titans. A game that is coming in 2016 and not 2003. I think it's worth asking "why is ____ a popular game mechanic in MMOs". The answer may be money, it may be a time-sink, it may be a community driven metagame.

I won't bother to dwell on the fact that there have been many MMOs which have launched since CoH did back in April 2004. Obviously many of the latest ones have evolved and influenced each other as time goes on. But your assertion that CoH was somehow a "genesis point" game that predated the entire concept of the "gear mechanic" in gaming is patently false and easily disprovable.

Not only were there a number of MMOs that predated CoH (such as EverQuest and Ultima Online) which were foundationally based on the "gear" paradigm (and crafting of said gear) but the whole basis of gear-oriented RPGs got their start from hundreds of pen-n-paper gaming systems that started as far back as the mid 1970s. By the time CoH launched in 2004 it was very much the refreshing exception to the entrenched gear-bandwagon that had dominated virtually ALL of RPG gaming for the 30 years prior to it.

JayBezz wrote:

I am not advocating gear or any kind of "widget" that is picked up and affects the appearance of a character. I am advocating for a Character Modifier System (I call it Training) that amplifies the Character Attributes on a Character Level (Not on a Powers Level). It doesn't have to use stats (Recovery, Intelligence etc) but I would be used to differentiate how a build performs (Accuracy, Movement Speed .. whatever the game eventually uses). The overall variance doesn't have to be great (10-15%) but the benefits of having such a system outweigh my desire to recreate CoH.
Benefits include:
Gaining a time sink
Gaining a trade currency
Gaining something that MMO players at large find familiar
Gaining character individualization (the numbers, not necessarily appearance)
Gaining Revenue (trading cash currency for training in exchange)
there are probably more benefits but those are the first that come to mind

So you want CoT to be some kind of hybrid Powers/Stats game (instead of what CoH was which was effectively Statless)? Why?

You already offer that it would only affect perhaps 10-15% of character building and pretty much every point in your list of benefits (i.e. time/money sinks, character individualization, etc.) is already accounted for in the Enhancement (CoH) / Boosts (CoT) concepts. IO sets (in CoH) already affected Stat-like qualities like Accuracy and Movement Speed - why would CoT have to treat those things differently with its equivalent Boost sets?

Overall it really seems like you're offering a solution in search of a problem here. You continue to claim that CoH's "gearless" mindset was somehow inferior and/or unevolved when again it's easily provable that if anything it offered a uniquely original alternative to almost every gaming system that ever came BEFORE or AFTER it. If you continue to like the uninspired lock-step of so called "modern" MMOs with respect to how they offer cookie-cutter gear systems then feel free to go off and play any one of those you fancy. The whole point of CoT being a "spiritual successor" of CoH is to not turn it into "random MMO circa 2015 number 73" but to actually bring back what made CoH worthwhile to begin with. I would argue its unique way of supporting the Superhero genre vis-a-vis gear is EXACTLY what COT needs to be.

The very fact that CoT "won't do things like every other Tom, Dick or Harry MMO" is precisely its whole point for existence.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Considering that the examples
JayBezz wrote:

I am not advocating gear or any kind of "widget" that is picked up and affects the appearance of a character. I am advocating for a Character Modifier System (I call it Training) that amplifies the Character Attributes on a Character Level (Not on a Powers Level). It doesn't have to use stats (Recovery, Intelligence etc) but I would be used to differentiate how a build performs (Accuracy, Movement Speed .. whatever the game eventually uses).

Considering that the examples you use - accuracy & movement speed - are typically modified by boosts at the power level (and potentially globally, given the global slots (or whatever they will be called) and anything the equivalent of the IO sets may provide), how exactly would this gear/training be different from boosts? Such gear would superfluous unless they affected numbers for which the boosts are not intended. As importantly, do you believe that such a gear system will go over well with those who desire it if it lacks an associated crafting system?

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Hail Beard!

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Benefits include:
Gaining a time sink
Gaining a trade currency
Gaining something that MMO players at large find familiar
Gaining character individualization (the numbers, not necessarily appearance)
Gaining Revenue (trading cash currency for training in exchange)
there are probably more benefits but those are the first that come to mind

What possible use is a time-sink? Why spend time doinking around with some mini-game or meta-game, when we can be Playing The Game?

'Players at large' often HATE crafting. At least, the eternal grind-fest that other MMOs use for their crafting system. CoH did it right. Put the ingredients in the blender, Combine, DONE! Now we can go out and play.

"Individualized Numbers" are irrelevant, if there's no way to see the numbers. Spiderman never went up to Superman and said, "Wow, dude, your numbers are so big!" No gear to see means no gear to inspect means no gear to compare, means that Spiderman and Superman can play together without worrying about the Zark-damned Numbers. Go Out And Play!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I'm all for changes at the

I'm all for changes at the powers level. Make your version of fire blast into what you want it to be, by all means

But I am also advocating changes at the character level. This character wears armor for more HP and that character dodges for mitigation.. this character has faster cooldowns while that character has a larger NRG pool.. I want to be able to differentiate, even if in a small way, what is going on with my character.

- -

@Lothic - in 2003/4 there were not the numbers of consumers playing MMORPGs as there are now. That's all I'm saying. There's more data available to us and alot of it points to the value of gear-like mechanics. CoH did them differently and while it was successful to some, it was not to others. But the greater harm comes in NOT involving the mechanic.. If you don't like grinding for gear, then by all means get your average 12% gear and have fun.. but if that extra 3% of performance means something to you, or if you just want something to spend money on, or if you just like to grind, or if you just have done everything else you had to do.. having the system there and readily available is smarter than NOT having it.

If you release a game without gear then it is not something you should add or majorly revamp later the thing about combat systems is that they need to be a finite self contained world where you can measure and define the variables. I get that many CoH lovers don't like gear.. but this game is (hopefully) not only for CoH fans but for MMO fans too.

- -

@Fireheart - My character was "the smartest woman in the world*" in Champions Online and I personally had ALOT of fun seeking out those INT stat points where ever I could find them. I'm pretty sure I had the highest natural INT in the game when I left it (773 IIRC) and It gave me alot of pride in accomplishing something like that. I get that others didn't care and I didn't LORD it over them.. in fact the character sheet is usually private. But you're willing to tell other players "Play like I do!" when you're unwilling to give them the systems for them to make their own choices.

Anywhere there's the ability and knowledge to create a system that adheres to parity and diversity I will advocate for it. However it is YOU like to play City of Titans I'd advocate just as staunchly that you have the ability to do so.

*Yes that is a Street Fighter II reference

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This has been a knock down

This has been a knock down drag out prize fight with passionate argument and good points on both sides.

I am proud that no matter how hard you all have attacked each other's ideas, overall you haven't resorted to attacking each other personally as is so commonly done on these fine internets.

If this is the level of maturity we see in the City of Titans, we' will equal the City of Heroes for community.

Nuff said.

Now, that being said--YOU'RE WRONG JAY AND FOLLY!

Just kidding :P.

I am in the other camp over all, but I have to admit that you have made me think long and hard about your points and perhaps swayed my thinking a bit in some areas.

Keep up the good work!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I'd like to step in, playing

I'd like to step in, playing a Devil's Advocate and offering some consequences the list of benefits seem to offer. In no way am I raging or attempting to humiliate the OP. I believe he has brought up some very good points in the thread, and I wish to provide my opposite perspective: superhero games from a gamer's perspective.

Many characters you mentioned don't use gear, or the comics/movies magically replenish any gear they may secretly need. Spiderman actually crafted the web slingers in the comics and now in the reboot. Batman may not rifle through the joker's pockets for cash, but he does for clues (loot) if the Joker's not talking. He usually finds a riddle from the Riddler and continues on his way. Green Arrow and Hawkeye both [should] have ammo problems. Tony Stark is actually the closest thing I can think to a plate-wearing modern-day knight off the top of my head. Even pulling away from tech origin, Beast as a mutant has been known to develop serums or other more science-based gear to give the team an edge against the current foe. So it may not be a direct correlation to a fantasy mmorpg, but modern day superheroes can be as involved in gear systems as the medieval.

1. No grinding for a special piece of gear
Gear provides replay value. Without it, after I've done the content once, there is no need to go back to do it again. As new content is developed, older content is left ignored by the playerbase except as long as it takes to level through it, areas of the city become ghost towns, and all content begins to take on an ephemeral aspect. Developers then invest less time in making quality content and more in the quantity, getting the next bit of content out there as quick as possible. Gear is one big way to keep players interested during alpha/beta testing and while bugs are fixed.

2. No inventory to manage
Inventory is a side effect of game balancing. CoH had an Inspiration tray that was an inventory as well as an Enhancement tray. They were limited in size to provide a driving risk vs reward to combat. I could fill the entire tray with enrage insps and blow through them on a boss fight, but if I died, I had no awakens and had to run all the way back. Risk vs Reward.

3. No exchange to waste time on
If there are items of any kind to impact the risk vs reward, there's a need for an exchange. CoH didn't have an exchange until issue 9, and as early as Issue 2 I know people were standing around in the Hive in some strange ad-hoc trade chatroom in broadcast calling out "Endo for Golgi!" and the like.

4. No crafting materials to gather
This is fairly subjective to the game, system, and implementation. I hate flying around Azeroth, hunting for mining or herbalism nodes. CoH however didn't make me grind for these materials, their invention mats automatically dropped off mobs and if I needed hero 1 blood sample I could go run lady grey and have fun at the same time. Blizzard is currently seeking to implement a system that automatically produces these materials daily in a system that all but outright rips off Cryptic's Duty Officer System in STO. Basically, the consequence of not gathering mats can be immensely minimized if done correctly to not be an issue if you don't want that type of gameplay.

5. No returning to town to sell off your loot
Again, Risk vs Reward. The reward of good loot exists as a needle inside the haystack of bad loot. To not go back to town (or dump it, trade it, mail it, or use it) is taking the risk to continue play at the expense of not getting that reward. I myself would go for months without selling enhancements because I had no need for it, and I wasn't working on building up a franken-set for one of my new powers or an older power because I didn't need inf, and I didn't need the space. I was willing to accept that risk because the reward was minimal.

6. No secret chests to try and find
This is again subjective for how to acquire items ingame. If the game design concepts for detective work make it to a release cut of CoT, I would almost guarantee you a secret chest type object will exist. It may be a filing cabinet, a desk, a computer, or an actual trunk with a padlock, but it's all effectively a secret treasure chest. If the treasure inside happens to be a personal character reward, clue-item, and/or a boost that's up to the level designers to decide.

7. No bickering over need/greed/pass
need/greed/pass is not exclusively tied to gear, but how items of all purposes drop. This synergizes with inventory and item grinding. CoH instantly dropped loot into player inventory, whether it was inspirations, invention mats, or enhancements. need/greed/pass will exist if there's any obtainable items from anything, so while CoT may not have Master-Looter/Round Robin systems written, there will be someone that needs it, someone else that doesn't give it, and a third that will pass it along for free.

8. No stopping the mission to see what special item you received
Risk vs Reward. To stop the mission to see what was received makes the choice between running through the content, clearing the inventory, and potentially improving the toon. This is heavily tied to #5.

9. No crafting skill to level up
To each their own, some players enjoy this type of gameplay. On occasion I don't mind a few hours flying around to get mats or levelling up my profession in WoW because at the end of it I can create something. Best of all, that something I created isn't easy to get to, not everyone can do it, and now my character is more unique because he is in a smaller group of toons that can.

10. No merchants to deal with
Merchants may have cool vanity items players want to buy like a puntable marmot or a hoverboard that can be earned/unlocked. Merchants happily buy any items you don't want and don't want to waste time finding another player to sell to. A cop at TCPD headquarters or at precinct 45 could be considered a merchant where you dump your extra clues. Basically, merchants aren't all bad, and offer an outlet to sink excess acquired currency to continue feeding an economy.

11. You get to feel like a superhero, not a medieval mercenary who is desperately looking for coins
I felt super in CoH and it definitely had plenty of gear and gearing systems. This is more subjective than others, because when the game mechanics strip away everything, it's all code and logs and an input line. Being and feeling super to me is all in the visual and circumstantial events.

12. Instead of developing all the gear stats and names, chests, drops, etc, developers can work on actual content updates.
This is actually not very time intensive at all. Most gearing is formulaic and calculated in minutes, names are given by writers and not programmers or artists. Without chests, drops, etc. content will not feel as robust and further reinforcing the consequence mentioned on #1. This is even further diminished when gear doesn't have a visual look tied to it like how CoH succeeded to separate.

13. More consistent power levels between characters of the same level
"And when everyone's special, no one will be." boosts, gear, enhancements, etc. offer player customization to feel more unique, to feel their own kind of special, and to bring something personal to the gameplay. It's up to the developers to balance those boosts to encourage diversity instead of further saying "these are the cookie cutter powers to use these cookie cutter boosts for this flavor of the month." It'll always exist, gear or no gear, but with boosts and gear it's easier to feel unique even through a FoTM.

14. Players feel like they are getting more powerful instead of just putting on a more powerful outfit
This is specific to the system where gear is a piece of armor that visibly changes the avatar appearance. I don't believe MWM is going to develop CoT in this format, so this benefit is already gained without the need to completely remove gearing from the game design.

Quote:

So what's the alternative?

XP.

XP is actually a secondary reward. There is a known, finite amount of XP a player will acquire to reach max level, there is a known, finite amount of rewards it can buy (levels 2-40 or levels 41-50, 51-55, etc.), and there is an infinite and replenishing source to acquire it. The only real way to balance such a disparity to the player is to give the player something else to sink XP that players will spend endlessly. The only mmo-game mechanic that fits that requirement sufficiently is currency. Now, XP as currency does have a rather innovative approach to things that I like. However, if the Titan City currency can be traded for real money, this would make the game pay-to-win and that's immediately destructive. Therefore, either ingame currency cannot be purchased, traded, or sold via bartering/trading, or it's a separate value not tied to XP.

Under the impression XP won't be the ingame currency, but there is no gear, another problem arises. Upon reaching max level, the main reward is gone. I'll run through the endgame content to get my achievements if that's something I'd like to do. Otherwise, I might as well wait for the next patch update that allows me to level up before I play (or pay) again. The tree system suggested would work better within the xp range or otherwise becomes L50+1, L50+2, etc. and that might as well just be renamed L51, L52 and so on. Eventually a player will cap out on XP and what XP can buy for a given stage of an MMOG. For an MMO that needs something to hold said player from expansion/issue/etc, Gear and currency plays a major role in operating as a time sink and a very pretty carrot during the downtime.

Thank you for reading, I have said everything I can on why gear is good.

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

Empyrean
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YOUR'E WRONG TOO SUMMER :P!

YOUR'E WRONG TOO SUMMER :P!

No, actually, your points are cogently stated and your thesis of "Superhero games from a gamer's perspective" is valid and quite crucial to consider for a Superhero MMORPG. The comics and later animated series and movies define the genre, but we're still bringing that genre into a world where other genres are what people are used to.

Personally, I've played CoH and then Superhero games like Champions and DCUO that picked up the armor and mods gear system well into the engame and I just never enjoyed the armor/mod gear system. It felt mostly out of place in a Superhero game and just wasn't fun. But that IS coming from someone who went from growing up on comic books to playing CoH, not someone who grew up as a "gamer".

Just my 2 inf.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I'm all for changes at the powers level. Make your version of fire blast into what you want it to be, by all means
But I am also advocating changes at the character level. This character wears armor for more HP and that character dodges for mitigation.. this character has faster cooldowns while that character has a larger NRG pool.. I want to be able to differentiate, even if in a small way, what is going on with my character.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like JayBezz is arguing in favor of having something like CoH's IO set bonuses in CoT. As long as we have a means to get character-wide stat customization (either through "global slots" or set bonuses from boosts placed into "power slots"), characters can be differentiated in exactly the way described above. CoH even had the real numbers view and allowed tracking up to ten stats on screen during combat.

Seems like agreement in support of CoH's post i9 Invention system to me...just using the term "gear" to refer to it.

On another note, I'd like to discard the notion that "gear" as implemented in most MMORPGs is somehow popular. It's not popular because it's gear; it's coveted and fought over, and only because of what it does - make your character stronger and look more impressive. That's what is actually popular. It's a means to an end, and those ends can be reached best through a CoH-like gear system.

CoH let us look impressive via the costume creator and powers(animation) customization, and CoT clearly intends to exceed even that lofty standard. CoH let us customize both the powers' attributes and our characters' stats with enhancements, far exceeding the defensive and offensive strength that any traditional MMO allows through its gear. Even CO's gear is weak by comparison. Can it make you nearby immune to KB? proc a wide variety of special effects? make you feel truly powerful as any AT, without gimmicks like a specific freeform power selection? Not in my experience.

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CoH did a good think by

CoH did a good think by making their Enhancement system (and later the Crafting System) the 'gear' for the game.

My armored tech guy just got his magno-coupler upgraded (added another slot to his melee attacks) and his legs augmented (another slot in Jump). Didn't change how he looked unless you Wanted it to with a new costume.

My natural archer got more 'Experience' and better 'Training' in the form of more slots too.

My mages learned new spells by leveling and selecting new powers and these grew more powerful as I 'perfected my channeling and concentration' (put in more slots).

Enhancements worked for EVERYTHING and you didn't have to worry about drops for the basic ones. Now I would STRONGLY support the idea that Enhancements not wear out. Nothing more frustrating than watching your power levels DROP because you leveled mid-mission and your enhancements went red.

But the idea that gear would ever change how you look? No...totally against the basis of CoH. Some temp power maybe but not the permanent look.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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I don't know the variables in

I don't know the variables in combat in CoT so I am trying to be intentionally vague.

What I am arguing against is the idea that gear systems are bad for the game. And please understand that I am talking about an invisible attribute changer (training as I call it). I say this because I do not want the devs to try to plug them into the story/lore in a way that doesn't work (like having a cape give you increased energy or something).

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Thank you, for typing that

Thank you, for typing that out Summer-Heat.

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For anyone interested in how

For anyone interested in how CoH's invention (crafting/top tier gear) system worked, the list of IO set bonuses (global stat boosts) that could be obtained, and what sort of combat stats the characters had, many resources are still available for reference at Paragon Wiki:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_System
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Sets
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Combat_Attributes
(and of course all of the links branching off from these pages)

If you want to see the customization possible with CoH's "gear" system firsthand, you can try Mids' Hero Designer. It's an offline character creator, but focused on powers and enhancements rather than costumes. A lot of us really enjoyed all of the enhancement "gear" planning and character customization that was allowed, even to the point of completely designing level 50/incarnate characters in Mids for hours, then firing up CoH to make our costume and start playing. Mids is a program that runs separate from CoH, and allows you to see the individual effects of powers/enhancements/set bonuses, stack them together to see the end result on your important stats, and even create shopping lists to help you with crafting & the auction house. The program is still available for free download here:
http://www.cohplanner.com/

If you wanted to be fastest Granite Tank, the toughest Blaster, the wildest Scrapper, or the Dominator with near-instant recharging powers, you almost certainly used Mids. It definitely helped with all sorts of concept builds that depended on odd combinations of powers and IOs.

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I probably spent as much time

I probably spent as much time on Mids tweaking my build as I played CoH.

No, I definitely spent as much time, maybe more. And then got to go play and be the hero I that built.

Good times.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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To me, it seems as if some

To me, it seems as if some people here have broader definitons of so called "Gear" than other, so let us see how this term seems to be used here:

1. Any object that modify the performance of the character
-This includes the Enhancements of City of Heroes (each power is modified individually), which is the way most probable to be used in City of Titans.

2. Objects modify the performance of the character via global modifiers.
-A subset of 1. Used by Champions Online.

3. Objects that modify the performance of the character via global modifiers, and the character's appearence.
-A subset of 2, the "stock RPG system", and not going to be used in City of Titans.

Then, there are some arguments that are less about the existence or the nature (regarding the definitions given above), but about other aspects, such as ease of acquisition (crafting, grinding) and degree of modification ("you're worthless without the best gear").

For the Analysis in my next post, I will use following definitons:

Modification system: "Gear" sensu lato, definition 1
Ability Modification system: Modifiers (primarily) modify individual abilities. E.g. City of Heroes.
Character Modification system: Modifiers (primarily) modify character-wide statistics, such as health, base damage or defences. Gear according to definition 2.
Modifier: A "part of gear", e.g. an Enhancement in City of Heroes, individual armour pieces and weapons in a Character Modification system.
Crafting: A process in which a Modifier is created by deliberate actions of a player character with the explicit goal to create that specific Modifier (i.e. not as a mission reward or Looting). Directly purchasing Modifiers from NPCs does not count as crafting.
Loot: A reward given for defeating individual enemies. Usually, it consists of a fixed component (usually Experience and "money") and a more or less random component - in this context, Modifiers or Crafting objects.

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I would note that definition

I would note that definition 2 was also used by CoH after Issue 9 Inventions, in the form of set bonuses and several IOs with specific global effects. Although not slotted onto the character directly, the same effect (global modifiers to the character's performance) was achieved. I await the next post...looks to be interesting.

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In City of Heroes, your

In City of Heroes, your character grew stronger, learned new powers, and old powers became more effective. Enhancements gave (relatively minor) additional adjustments to specific aspects of the individual powers.

My experience in WoW and other 'gear-based' games, is that the Character didn't become much more powerful as they went up in levels. Instead, all of their 'power' was inherent in the Gear. The Character didn't have defenses, it was the Gear that defended the character. The Character didn't have strength or intelligence, it was the Gear that had those stats. All of the character's power is in their Suit of Gear, rather than in themselves.

Therefore, the real 'character' was the Gear and they player-character simply wore/drove the Gear. Indeed, stripped of their gear, a Warrior (tank) and Mage (blaster) were equally defenseless, in my experience. Everybody is 'Ironman', just a helpless geek in a Suit.

I'll admit, in the later days of CoH, it was possible, through IO Set bonuses, to give a character certain stats they they did not enjoy 'naturally', notably Defense, and you could have a Blaster or Defender who was far from 'squishy'. Call Me Awesome's 'Full Awesome' build made a Tanker that was not just nigh Invulnerable, but nigh Untouchable, as well. All one had to do was collect and apply enough 'gear'. The individual Powers were chosen and slotted, not to be effective as Powers, but to be able to sustain the 'Gear'. And the full set of 'gear' necessary to produce that effect cost Billions of Influence/Infamy/Information.

I'm hoping that City of Titans will let the Power of heroism remain in the Hero, and not in the collection of gear that they strap on.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

My experience in WoW and other 'gear-based' games, is that the Character didn't become much more powerful as they went up in levels. Instead, all of their 'power' was inherent in the Gear. The Character didn't have defenses, it was the Gear that defended the character. The Character didn't have strength or intelligence, it was the Gear that had those stats. All of the character's power is in their Suit of Gear, rather than in themselves.

I've made precisely the same argument about my problem with traditional gear driven games. Take the gear from the character and he's scarcely more than Billy-Ray Farmer from down the street. Sure, leveling up makes the character inherently more powerful, but the ultimate measure of the character's power remains that he can now use that more powerful, higher level gear.

I much prefer a boosts system which modifies a character's power, rather than defining that character's capabilities.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

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The main benefit of Character

The main benefit of Character Modification over Ability Modification is lower complexity: You do not have to decide what aspects to modify for every single power, if you want all powers to be more accurate, it is easier to increase global accuracy then to apply accuracy Modifiers to every power individually.
However, this is also its weakness: Ability Modification systems obviously are superior when it comes to specialising abilities. With Ability Modification, you can decide whether you want to focus on the damage or the controll (etc) component of this power, while focusing on the other aspect for that power.

Considering that there will be quite a lot of aspects that would have to be modifiable in the game, and that the aspects to focus on could be even more diverse depending on powerset, Ability Modification appears to be better suited for City of Titans than modifying a set of statistics that would end up too narrow or too wide-spread.

In an Ability Modification system, an individual Modifier is usually less important than in a Character Modification system, as it needs much more Modifier slots: City of Heroes gave you a free slot for every ability and 67 additional slots to distribute as you level up, while your equipment in most Character Modification systems consists only of a handful of Modifiers.

As has been said during my absence, in traditional Character Modification systems, abilities modify Modifier values, while in City of Heroes, Modifiers modify ability values:
In "World of Generic Tolkien Rip-off Online", defensive classes get access to superior defence Modifiers ("heavier armour") and offensive classes get superior damage Modifiers ("better weapons"). However, if you do not use these Modifiers, you have no defence, since your further abilities at best increase the defence gained from the armour, and you cannot attack because your attack abilities have no damage on their own but deal "weapon damage"*x.
In City of Heroes, you gain (several) defence power(s) that grant x resistance that can be enhanced (with Modifiers). Your damage-dealing ability cause y damage that can be enhanced (with Modifiers). However, even without Modifiers, your abilities were only weaker, but not unusable.
While the former might be due to convention (and less present in Champions Online), thematically, the system of City of Heroes fits better.

All in all, I think Ability Modification is better suited for City of Titans.

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On the matter of Loot:

On the matter of Loot:
Presenting Loot as actual physical objects you take from the corpses of your enemies is most assuredly not thematically appropriate for a super hero game, and leads to some logical Problems (Why does that bear have a warhammer? Why did he not use the Holy Lance when he fought you? How do I fit into the armour of a five metre tall winged demon?). Here, it is probably best to keep Modifiers and Crafting components abstract. For example, your new Modifier means that you get insight how to increase the effectiveness of a power that you can implement easily, while a Crafting component means that you have an idea how you could improve i, but still need to develop this idea into something you can actually use (i.e. crafting).

Most other issues might be better discussed in their own topics, and in the end might come down to game balance

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Two small things:

Two small things:

1) I don't think the "grind to ad costume pieces" you see in, say, DCUO, is as good as having at least the vast majority of your choices in the costume right in the Costume Creator like CoH and, to a lesser extent, Champions did/does. I understand the idea behind costume grinding--same as gear grinding, to motivate players to repeatedly play existing content whether it's fun enough for them to want to on it's own merits or not--but in a Superhero game, getting your hero to be thematically what you want is important BEFORE you play him/her to get into it.

That's why people spent SO much time dinkering in what was effectively the metagames of the character creator and/or Mids. If a player is really into the theme, concept, and story of a Hero, they are going to have fun playing him/her almost no matter what.

2) I 100% agree with X but would like to ad that Ability Modification and Ability ADDITION are both great for a Superhero game. The first meaning a system like IO's and the second meaning a system like the Incarnate. You could call the Incarnate system additional levels, but it wasn't really, it was Modified AND Added Abilities. And one of the things that was good about the dreaded "cool down" was that it encouraged you to have a huge tray of abilities to strategically and tactically choose as needed rather than 1112111211311121112113.

You know, I guess that's one of the things about CoH gameplay, it was strategic and tactical instead of twitchy. Still fun and exciting, but more quick thinking rather than quick twitching. And a big reason for this was the much-maligned cooldowns.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Xnarl wrote:
Xnarl wrote:

The main benefit of Character Modification over Ability Modification is lower complexity: You do not have to decide what aspects to modify for every single power, if you want all powers to be more accurate, it is easier to increase global accuracy then to apply accuracy Modifiers to every power individually.
However, this is also its weakness: Ability Modification systems obviously are superior when it comes to specialising abilities. With Ability Modification, you can decide whether you want to focus on the damage or the controll (etc) component of this power, while focusing on the other aspect for that power.
Considering that there will be quite a lot of aspects that would have to be modifiable in the game, and that the aspects to focus on could be even more diverse depending on powerset, Ability Modification appears to be better suited for City of Titans than modifying a set of statistics that would end up too narrow or too wide-spread.
In an Ability Modification system, an individual Modifier is usually less important than in a Character Modification system, as it needs much more Modifier slots: City of Heroes gave you a free slot for every ability and 67 additional slots to distribute as you level up, while your equipment in most Character Modification systems consists only of a handful of Modifiers.
As has been said during my absence, in traditional Character Modification systems, abilities modify Modifier values, while in City of Heroes, Modifiers modify ability values:
In "World of Generic Tolkien Rip-off Online", defensive classes get access to superior defence Modifiers ("heavier armour") and offensive classes get superior damage Modifiers ("better weapons"). However, if you do not use these Modifiers, you have no defence, since your further abilities at best increase the defence gained from the armour, and you cannot attack because your attack abilities have no damage on their own but deal "weapon damage"*x.
In City of Heroes, you gain (several) defence power(s) that grant x resistance that can be enhanced (with Modifiers). Your damage-dealing ability cause y damage that can be enhanced (with Modifiers). However, even without Modifiers, your abilities were only weaker, but not unusable.
While the former might be due to convention (and less present in Champions Online), thematically, the system of City of Heroes fits better.
All in all, I think Ability Modification is better suited for City of Titans.

Could be worth looking into Wildstar then, where they have the AMP system, where as you level up you get points to spend in passive abilities that add various different effects (some which happen when you land an attack, others when you get hit, some are just unlocked abilities for you use like normal powers).

So whilst people complain about Wildstar just having so "few abilities" at any point in time, they are unaware of the "passives" that are backing up the character.

/sidenote: There are also break points in Wildstar when your stats hit certain thresholds, which give you an additional bonus (more base shield/health/base attack/defence)

Hell, some of these work like "Aim" in CoX, or some of the passive tanking abilities which were always active on your character....

*shrugs* Overall, I like being able to "chase the shiny"... even better if I can choose to use the look of the item or not (or flick between using it or the appearance of another weapon I own)

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Xnarl wrote:
Xnarl wrote:

To me, it seems as if some people here have broader definitons of so called "Gear" than other, so let us see how this term seems to be used here:

#NomenclatureMatters Thank you for these definitions

- -

Why are we speaking as though you must have one or the other (A power modification system OR a character modification system). We can have both.

PS. I love that you used the term "dropping insights" as loot because insight is exactly what people use to train. Keep the terms abstract and they apply much more universally. Sometimes its a "Eureka" insight and sometimes its an insight not really useful

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Xnarl wrote:
To me, it seems as if some people here have broader definitons of so called "Gear" than other, so let us see how this term seems to be used here:

#NomenclatureMatters Thank you for these definitions
- -
Why are we speaking as though you must have one or the other (A power modification system OR a character modification system). We can have both.
PS. I love that you used the term "dropping insights" as loot because insight is exactly what people use to train. Keep the terms abstract and they apply much more universally. Sometimes its a "Eureka" insight and sometimes its an insight not really useful

Abstract terms are MUCH better in a game where you are largely writing your own story, agreed.

And quite right, Power vs Character Mod is not either/or--but I always find refining the concept and playstyle of my Hero by tweaking each Power individually much more fun and exciting than just making the Character more powerful in a generic way such as increasing base stats.

I find myself increasing base numbers because I NEED to as I level, but I find myself constantly tweaking powers and adding powers because it's fun and I'm EXCITED to flesh out my concept and playstyle.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

My preference is that my hero's ability comes from within himself and is not dependent on strapping on the right gizmo.
My problem with 'gear' in general is that First I have to Find the 'plus-5 thing of whiz-bang', or buy it from a store, or pay money for the pseudo-currency used to purchase it from the game-store. And then, damit, I have to replace my 'plus 5 thing of whiz-bang' with a newer, better model, after only a few levels. Or, almost worse, I have to collect and craft the 'ultra-thing-a-matizer' to convert my whiz-bang into a Bang-whiz-bang... again, after just a few levels. If I don't continually replace my gear, then I risk falling behind and becoming a famous Gimp.
Even more, with gear, I'm not struggling with just One item, but a hat and a jacket and pants and belt and suspenders and shoes and wrist-watch and earrings and rings and... a Dozen different things. And then the next patch comes out and all of my gear becomes irrelevant, compared to the new shiny.
And that doesn't even Begin to touch the gods-awful Crafting stink-hole grind-fest necessary to support all of the gear. Which means you need to maintain a veritable army of crafting specialists, because you need Wood and Metal and Textiles and Chemicals and OTHER Metal and Leather and Gems and etc, etc, etc...
When do I get to BE A HERO, if I'm spending all, of my time Crafting?? Or, no, I can't just play any mission I want to, I have to go into the Cave of Pain over and over and over in order to have a chance of picking up the Special Thing, because, if I don't, well, I'll have to wear the big sign with 'NOOB' on it, in brightly flashing colors.
City of Heroes simplified all of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Kinda needed to do that to get some of those better IO recipes didn't we? :p

Also, if you don't like gear grinding, and CoH had it, people ran TFs over and over again to try and get those items where they had better chances for them to drop.

Had to grind to get the components to craft those recipes.

This is part of MMOs. If you don't like that aspect, understandable, but that means you earn credits to purchase said items or don't do the content to get the item.

Yeah, it was nice CoH didn't have BoP or BoE (for the most part) so you could sell all drops, but CoH had lots of content one needed to repeat to get.

And you're not being a hero when repeating that Cave of Pain? CoH wasn't all that different between missions. Or do you just mean you want to select some of the easier content over some of the content with harder bosses or a mechanic outside of tab, target, push button, move on?

Everything about your post seems to be less about not being able to play like you want, but wanting to get all the top stuff to make your easy challenges easier.

Like the person who could solo everything in game, all normal quests and AVs and maybe even the Giant Monsters, but hated the idea that they couldn't obtain even more power that was really only needed for the group content. :p

Yes, CoH put a way in for solo players to get it too, but then they complained that it took them longer to get it.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Xnarl wrote:
The main benefit of Character Modification over Ability Modification is lower complexity: You do not have to decide what aspects to modify for every single power, if you want all powers to be more accurate, it is easier to increase global accuracy then to apply accuracy Modifiers to every power individually.
However, this is also its weakness: Ability Modification systems obviously are superior when it comes to specialising abilities. With Ability Modification, you can decide whether you want to focus on the damage or the controll (etc) component of this power, while focusing on the other aspect for that power.
Considering that there will be quite a lot of aspects that would have to be modifiable in the game, and that the aspects to focus on could be even more diverse depending on powerset, Ability Modification appears to be better suited for City of Titans than modifying a set of statistics that would end up too narrow or too wide-spread.
In an Ability Modification system, an individual Modifier is usually less important than in a Character Modification system, as it needs much more Modifier slots: City of Heroes gave you a free slot for every ability and 67 additional slots to distribute as you level up, while your equipment in most Character Modification systems consists only of a handful of Modifiers.
As has been said during my absence, in traditional Character Modification systems, abilities modify Modifier values, while in City of Heroes, Modifiers modify ability values:
In "World of Generic Tolkien Rip-off Online", defensive classes get access to superior defence Modifiers ("heavier armour") and offensive classes get superior damage Modifiers ("better weapons"). However, if you do not use these Modifiers, you have no defence, since your further abilities at best increase the defence gained from the armour, and you cannot attack because your attack abilities have no damage on their own but deal "weapon damage"*x.
In City of Heroes, you gain (several) defence power(s) that grant x resistance that can be enhanced (with Modifiers). Your damage-dealing ability cause y damage that can be enhanced (with Modifiers). However, even without Modifiers, your abilities were only weaker, but not unusable.
While the former might be due to convention (and less present in Champions Online), thematically, the system of City of Heroes fits better.
All in all, I think Ability Modification is better suited for City of Titans.

Could be worth looking into Wildstar then, where they have the AMP system, where as you level up you get points to spend in passive abilities that add various different effects (some which happen when you land an attack, others when you get hit, some are just unlocked abilities for you use like normal powers).
So whilst people complain about Wildstar just having so "few abilities" at any point in time, they are unaware of the "passives" that are backing up the character.
/sidenote: There are also break points in Wildstar when your stats hit certain thresholds, which give you an additional bonus (more base shield/health/base attack/defence)
Hell, some of these work like "Aim" in CoX, or some of the passive tanking abilities which were always active on your character....
*shrugs* Overall, I like being able to "chase the shiny"... even better if I can choose to use the look of the item or not (or flick between using it or the appearance of another weapon I own)

Take something akin to WS's skill tree/amp...instead of having a different one per AT (WS has a slightly different one I believe for each class...could be mistaken) have a 3-5 of them to choose for a character.

DPS/SUPPORT/TANK, TANK/DPS/SUPPORT, SUPPORT/TANK/DPS, DPS/TANK/SUPPORT, SUPPORT/DPS/TANK and lastly TANK/SUPPORT/DPS.

Basically a tiered skill tree that gives more options for what's in the First/Second/Third Positions. So if they had 100 places to put skill points we'd see 60% of the skills dedicated what's considered First (most important), 30% of the skills dedicated to the Second and 10% in the Third.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
My preference is that my hero's ability comes from within himself and is not dependent on strapping on the right gizmo.
My problem with 'gear' in general is that First I have to Find the 'plus-5 thing of whiz-bang', or buy it from a store, or pay money for the pseudo-currency used to purchase it from the game-store. And then, damit, I have to replace my 'plus 5 thing of whiz-bang' with a newer, better model, after only a few levels. Or, almost worse, I have to collect and craft the 'ultra-thing-a-matizer' to convert my whiz-bang into a Bang-whiz-bang... again, after just a few levels. If I don't continually replace my gear, then I risk falling behind and becoming a famous Gimp.
Even more, with gear, I'm not struggling with just One item, but a hat and a jacket and pants and belt and suspenders and shoes and wrist-watch and earrings and rings and... a Dozen different things. And then the next patch comes out and all of my gear becomes irrelevant, compared to the new shiny.
And that doesn't even Begin to touch the gods-awful Crafting stink-hole grind-fest necessary to support all of the gear. Which means you need to maintain a veritable army of crafting specialists, because you need Wood and Metal and Textiles and Chemicals and OTHER Metal and Leather and Gems and etc, etc, etc...
When do I get to BE A HERO, if I'm spending all, of my time Crafting?? Or, no, I can't just play any mission I want to, I have to go into the Cave of Pain over and over and over in order to have a chance of picking up the Special Thing, because, if I don't, well, I'll have to wear the big sign with 'NOOB' on it, in brightly flashing colors.
City of Heroes simplified all of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Kinda needed to do that to get some of those better IO recipes didn't we? :p
Also, if you don't like gear grinding, and CoH had it, people ran TFs over and over again to try and get those items where they had better chances for them to drop.
Had to grind to get the components to craft those recipes.
This is part of MMOs. If you don't like that aspect, understandable, but that means you earn credits to purchase said items or don't do the content to get the item.
Yeah, it was nice CoH didn't have BoP or BoE (for the most part) so you could sell all drops, but CoH had lots of content one needed to repeat to get.
And you're not being a hero when repeating that Cave of Pain? CoH wasn't all that different between missions. Or do you just mean you want to select some of the easier content over some of the content with harder bosses or a mechanic outside of tab, target, push button, move on?
Everything about your post seems to be less about not being able to play like you want, but wanting to get all the top stuff to make your easy challenges easier.
Like the person who could solo everything in game, all normal quests and AVs and maybe even the Giant Monsters, but hated the idea that they couldn't obtain even more power that was really only needed for the group content. :p
Yes, CoH put a way in for solo players to get it too, but then they complained that it took them longer to get it.

Dunno. I had two mains that could solo everything but AV's and GMs (maybe they could, I just never tried), and I never had trouble in CoH just playing whatever content I thought was fun and then using the drops and influence I got on the market to just outright buy whatever IO's I wanted.

Never whined about it taking longer cause I could play whatever I wanted so getting there was the fun, not an obstacle, and there was tons of content. And this is coming form an, I don't know, at least 75% solo player.

I mean, other than Incarnate stuff that you couldn't buy--but they did a great job of making that stuff fun to run and it didn't take a ton of grinding to get what you wanted and then it was off to playing whatever content you wanted again.

There was "gear", but it wasn't the standard armor/stat mods gear, so it fit the genre better and was much more fun because it refined and customized your character concept much more.

And there was grind, but there wasn't heavy mandatory grind content that was almost the whole endgame. It was just one part of endgame and it was well designed.

The game was just well done, and NCsoft should have let Paragon Studios make a CoH 2. But screw them, they missed their chance :P

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

..Power vs Character Mod is not either/or--but I always find refining the concept and playstyle of my Hero by tweaking each Power individually much more fun and exciting than just making the Character more powerful in a generic way such as increasing base stats.
I find myself increasing base numbers because I NEED to as I level, but I find myself constantly tweaking powers and adding powers because it's fun and I'm EXCITED to flesh out my concept and playstyle.

I don't think we're disagreeing (for the most part). Its a matter of flavor and math. I'm saying Gear should be 15% of a final/decked out build. Character level (1-30) will likely be 25-50% of a final build. And powers (with enhancement points) could be the other 35%.

But even if 800 Intelligence points is only 15% of my build I'll still be excited to go out and find each point. (I can only pray that in this game the INT works well with cooldowns/debuff strength if it exists *fingers crossed*). If the game doesn't have stats then I'll hope to have the fastest cooldowns and hardest debuffs I can because that's how I define my character. It gives me personal pride and frankly I've always been willing to earn them with my dollars just as much as I am willing to earn them with my time.

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Okay, but 'Character Stats'

Okay, but 'Character Stats' were irrelevant in CoH. The Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence of the character was not a factor in their effectiveness, so we were free to role-play those aspects however we wanted. Enhancements did not change the Character, but directly modified aspects of the Powers themselves. Thus, changes in the powers could be explained however the player wanted, as training, or experience, or just attitude, instead of being a fundamental change in the characters themselves.

This is what allowed gods and mortals and alien things to all exist and play at the same level. This is what allowed all eight of 'the fastest man alive' to exist on the same team. Because that factor had no number and thus no point of comparison, and thus nothing to fight about. Instead, it was all about how you balanced your powers and everyone had the exact same resources there. There was no ego-busting, "Pheer Me, you Peons, for I have the Orb of Infinite Power and You Don't! Nya-Hah!" Instead, we all faced the same choices at each level, and made them.

Be Well!
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Dunno. I had two mains that could solo everything but AV's and GMs (maybe they could, I just never tried), and I never had trouble in CoH just playing whatever content I thought was fun and then using the drops and influence I got on the market to just outright buy whatever IO's I wanted.
Never whined about it taking longer cause I could play whatever I wanted so getting there was the fun, not an obstacle, and there was tons of content. And this is coming form an, I don't know, at least 75% solo player.
I mean, other than Incarnate stuff that you couldn't buy--but they did a great job of making that stuff fun to run and it didn't take a ton of grinding to get what you wanted and then it was off to playing whatever content you wanted again.
There was "gear", but it wasn't the standard armor/stat mods gear, so it fit the genre better and was much more fun because it refined and customized your character concept much more.
And there was grind, but there wasn't heavy mandatory grind content that was almost the whole endgame. It was just one part of endgame and it was well designed.
The game was just well done, and NCsoft should have let Paragon Studios make a CoH 2. But screw them, they missed their chance :P

Wow, Emp -- you and I had almost the exact same experience playing CoX (which I've learned from this forum and Titan Network is pretty rare, due to the huge variety in the ways one could play).

I agree: the only bit I ever found grindy was the Incarnate stuff, and I didn't mind it as much as I minded, say, top-level dailies in SWTOR, which got boring really fast -- or had people ninjaing the glowies as soon as you aggroed the mobs. (Ah, the joys of open-world content!)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Well some things that you

Well some things that you call benefits.. yeah . . they aren't! Why would you not sell your loot, how will you earn money. Why would you not try find a secret chest or something! And lastsly crafting is fun and makes you wanna play the game!

E.G I want to craft Mogs Chestpiece (plays 1 week and gets it)
Now i have to get a pant! (Plays 5 days)
ETC.

#BringBackCoH/V #LookingForwardToCot

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And I want to craft 14 level

And I want to craft 14 level 20 Aim IOs, so I go out and smash baddies until I collect enough parts, trade some extra things for the special bits, then I go to the crafting station and crank out my enhancements. Slot them, and I'm ready to go.

My crafting skill-level is irrelevant, because I don't have one. My chance of failing to create a thing doesn't matter, because I don't have one. My TIME TO CRAFT something doesn't matter, either, because I've got nearly instant gratification - I don't have to stand there, beating the gong for 16 minutes, while the game decides whether I'm worthy.

I don't have to worry that 'Mogs Chestpiece' is Heavy Armor and I can't wear it, because I'm a Blaster. I don't have to worry about the pants, because I'm not wearing any pants! -Hah!- My powers do not depend on pants.

No Gear, thanks.

Be Well!
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coacola wrote:
coacola wrote:

Well some things that you call benefits.. yeah . . they aren't! Why would you not sell your loot, how will you earn money. Why would you not try find a secret chest or something! And lastsly crafting is fun and makes you wanna play the game!
E.G I want to craft Mogs Chestpiece (plays 1 week and gets it)
Now i have to get a pant! (Plays 5 days)
ETC.

I don't know. I just... won't (play 1 week) or (play 5 days) to grind and craft. And Heroes don't corpse-loot. I guess Villains would, though...

I tried, really I did, in Champions and DCUO. I couldn't do it. But I spend YEARS having fun playing the way Fireheart outlined, the way it was done in CoH.

It takes all kinds, and the game isn't just for me, obviously, but I for one don't like the typical gear-grind and craft stuff. If some do then maybe there should be some of that in the game, but please other things too. I can stand a little grinding, but not much.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

coacola wrote:
Well some things that you call benefits.. yeah . . they aren't! Why would you not sell your loot, how will you earn money. Why would you not try find a secret chest or something! And lastsly crafting is fun and makes you wanna play the game!
E.G I want to craft Mogs Chestpiece (plays 1 week and gets it)
Now i have to get a pant! (Plays 5 days)
ETC.

I don't know. I just... won't (play 1 week) or (play 5 days) to grind and craft. And Heroes don't corpse-loot or ransack bases. I guess Villains would, though...
I tried, really I did, in Champions and DCUO. I couldn't do it. But I spend YEARS having fun playing the way Fireheart outlined, the way it was done in CoH.
It takes all kinds, and the game isn't just for me, obviously, but I for one don't like the typical gear-grind and craft stuff. If some do then maybe there should be some of that in the game, but please other things too. I can stand a little grinding, but not much.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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gears and weapons level up u

gears and weapons level up u pick stats?

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Hah!- My powers do not depend on pants.

Been reading this thread and finally found a quote that sums up the entire point, succinctly. :D

CoH's 'gear' system, aka the enhancements and incarnate abilities, was great. Something like that for CoT will be fine. But the costume creator should be totally separate from anything that has any effect on the mechanics of playing, and if I am ever forced to look a certain way because of the need to alter any of my numbers, I'll be well irked.

My powers do not depend on pants! :D

MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.

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LOL -- not sure where you and

LOL -- not sure where you and Fireheart live, but in the UK that quote comes across as even funnier given that "pants" refers to underwear in British English.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Eco wrote:
Eco wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
Hah!- My powers do not depend on pants.
Been reading this thread and finally found a quote that sums up the entire point, succinctly. :D
CoH's 'gear' system, aka the enhancements and incarnate abilities, was great. Something like that for CoT will be fine. But the costume creator should be totally separate from anything that has any effect on the mechanics of playing, and if I am ever forced to look a certain way because of the need to alter any of my numbers, I'll be well irked.
My powers do not depend on pants! :D

I wanted to wait until I put on my +10 INT pants before posting here, but I left them at home again.

I'm opposed to stat-enhancing gear for a superhero game, but I wouldn't be averse to a system that added one or two "universal" enhancement slots to your costume slot. You could slot them all the same or make specialty sets for certain adversaries. Many heroes, when they encountered overwhelming foes, altered their gear slightly to deal with them better. Spidey may have a suit that helps insulate electro's shock attacks (+ Shock resist). Green Arrow may add weapons to his quiver that specialize in a certain foe's weakness (+ typed damage). Batman may have sonic-vision-gear, etc.

What I don't want is +10 INT pants. They tend to restrict the blood flow and ride up something fierce.

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Considering resistances,

Considering resistances, damage, and damage type are elements of the power sets, I do not see how it would be possible to present such an adaptive system without essentially creating a free form game. This would create even more of a headache for MWM to balance - assuming that remains possible, at that point - than allowing people to choose their preferred damage type at character creation.

- - - - -
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Gangrel
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Last seen: 2 months 6 days ago
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Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
I can see resistances being

I can see resistances being implemented fairly easily via gear (think of it as a *bonus* enhancement slot).

Hell, in CoX, IO sets had resistance bonuses... so you could treat it that way (small bonus possibly per "slot", but they can add up over time to a nice amount).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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