Speed and freedom of movement are some of the defining features of superhero comics and mmo's. Skyscrapers blur past the colorfully caped. Any region in the city is accessible in a in a brief super speed run or ride on a skybike. Heroes must remember to fly high of course, so they don't send newspapers flying and blow wind up girl's skirts. Superheroes race in to battle, accelerating right to their limits, to send the enemies flying -- oh, wait that last part is only in comics, not games.
We need to have a combat system that fully integrates high speed maneuvers for both defensive and offensive use.
On the offense, some characters would use the pre-combat stage of battle to accelerate to give their character more powerful attacks. This would be done with a combo system that would change attacks based on speed. A Hulk type character would accelerate to his maximum and then use his basic attack, which at slow speeds is a jab. Instead of a simple jab, the attack becomes a powerful flying lunge attack that would send the enemy flying backwards as momentum is exchanged between the two bodies. Ranged characters could also benefit from this as their projectiles are now "moving faster". This may result in a Starfire type character making strafing runs at the enemy to maximize her damage. This is the best way for her to fight since she is extremely quick. The Hulk type character may use the attack to enter battle, but then decides that it is better to attack with a more traditional boxing style of combat since he only has moderate speed.. A Jason Todd character with little speed wouldn't use this system, and instead would remain behind cover.
The first type of defensive use is quite obvious-- dodging. It's now standard in MMO's for players to dodge enemy, but I think this can be expanded. Faster characters would dodge quicker, and their dodge may also be a counter. By combining the dodge button with an attack they may unleash that attack with the bonus of momentum. Here is an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4phfu8_CNg
The second type of defensive speed use is to mitigate momentum exchanges. If you see the previously mentioned Hulk type character charging at you, your best option might be to move backwards to mitigate the relative speed between you two and thus the damage. If you can match his speed in time, then his jab + speed just becomes a jab.
For a refernce for how a high speed combat system may look, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0AZRRyr2lg
Oh god, ow, where should I start?
Let's start with your choice of video.That game is clearly nothing but twitch play.
Twitch play is something the developers have gone on record previously (unless things have changed radically in the last three months) to state will NOT be a part of CoT.
Now, that's not to say that there will not be speed involved in combat. I know that one of the proposed visuals for a 'ranged' powerset at one point was an example of a 'rocket fist' situation and a number of good ideas for it came up. The same could be done with slightly different effects for a super-speed character where mechanically the character is standing still, but they are visually seemingly running from one enemy to the next, punching each one in turn before backing away to take a quick breather.
Now, I'm not a developer, I'm not a programmer, and due to an error on the final day of the Kickstarter I'm barely even a backer, but even I know it's better to ask for a visual representation of a flat-banned mechanic and get the effect you want without messing with an established design imperative.
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
Let me clarify. The video was to show that high speed combat is possible and to get people wondering about how it can get done. I put the video because I knew the first response without the video would be that it isn't possible, not to show, in detail how it work exactly.
I just don't want a system where you are dramatically slowed for combat. I don't want a copy of a fantasy game where you ride your mount around, and then when you get in a fight you are dismounted. It can't just not have that system. It has to have a different system. What I proposed was an example of how that might be possible.
Don't pay attention to the details of the video. Pat attention to how it feels. It feels a lot better than standing in a half circle spawning powers as they time out their cool downs.
Its way-too-early 'o' clock where I am, so please forgive any incoherency. In a non-twitch combat system then movement based attacks and defences may need to be built in.
Flight: Divebomb and Dodge.
Divebomb: Hit one target. Knock over send flying. Damage increases with player level.
Dodge: Chance increases with level.
Leap: Tremor and Dodge.
Tremor: AoE knock over or knock back, centred on landing spot. Effect increases with level.
Dodge: Chance increases with level.
Teleport: Disorient and Dodge.
Disorient: Take a target through several mini jumps, leaving them stunned. Duration increase with level.
Dodge: Chance increases with level.
Speed: Flurry of Blows and Dodge.
Flurry of Blows: Sands of Mu (if you know what I mean). Damage increases with level. Alternately: Flurry Punch the ground, doing a Tremor.
Dodge: Chance increases with level.
For all of these, Dodge is essentially the same mechanic with a different visual.
If your alt has SuperStrength, then increase the damage/effect accordingly.
If a secondary effect, like knockdown or Knockback is included, then give the player the choice when they take that movement power.
Attacks and defences built into movements don't have to be one-shot kills. They just have to look good, and make the movement power more than, well, just a movement power.
High speed combat is quite possible; to that I agree. However, given the already large and expanding list of games which incorporate momentum-like effects, arcade playstyles, and dodge/block mechanics, I think it's acceptable to retain at least one superhero MMO in which the default combat style does not assume we're on a Google fiber connection with the server farm within line-of-sight. Hyperbolic? Somewhat, but in online mode, those linked examples (and active combat MMOs such as Neverwinter) would be completely unplayable or at least frustratingly difficult in many parts of the USA.
To the OP - If you played CoH, I would like to hear your thoughts on whether combat movement was sufficiently "speedy" in i23, in your favorite combat scenarios (assuming you use the following powers):
1a.) unslotted sprint + 1-slotted swift + hurdle
1b.) 1a, plus unslotted combat jumping
1c.) 1b, plus entering combat from 80' range with superspeed on
2.) moderately-slotted hover (~67% speed enhancement) for combat, with ability to switch to flight to move between enemy spawns
3.) under the influence of unslotted speed boost or siphon speed
4.) the use of teleport or any of the distance-closer powers (e.g. Lightning Rod)
5.) the use of stealth or equivalent powers that allowed the player to initiate combat and (with enough movement skill and map knowledge) disengage and restart combat to pick off enemies.
Personally, I found all of these to offer satisfying rushes into combat with the possible exception of # 2 (fine for all except melee playstyles). Several of the scenarios listed above did allow me to move in combat at or above most fantasy MMOs' mount speeds. Due to the large number of enemies in most combat encounters, target switching was common and thus movement - either to reach new targets or optimally position for AoE delivery - was important to me...to have the most fun, provide maximum benefit to a team, and look awesome while doing it. Movement was typically not panic-related (unless ambushed, surrounded by bosses, or receiving unplanned attention from an archvillain); it was more thoughtfully tactical - as something I did because I wanted to, not because the enemy forced me to as some kind of repetitious test of my reaction-time.
Thus I found CoH's combat movement more superpowered / fun / rewarding than the style of combat movement designed for arcade play or "block/dodge out of red circle" every 3 seconds that recent MMOs have implemented. Yes, Neverwinter, I'm looking at you. To me that's just movement for its own sake. I'm not opposed to an "Active Combat System" that is optional, but CoH's combat movement was fairly close to what I'd like to see in CoT. If we're hunting for improvements, maybe ease the suppression transition between "high-speed travel powers" and the moderate speed "combat travel powers", and make sure that base speed of all travel forms (hover, running, jumping...) is satisfyingly as fast or faster than what we find in other top-tier MMOs, and give similarly satisfying speed increases from enhancements.
No, I didn't play CoH. By the time I found it, it was sufficiently dated that I didn't want to start. I've played to endgame DCUO, GW2, Neverwinter, Marvel Heroes, and Star Trek Online. I had trouble finding a clip of CoH endgame combat to judge the speed. I saw some staring location stuff and it was bit slow, but that isn't a good representation. I think it's fine for some characters to stand in place and hack things. That is character appropriate for characters like Doomsday or Punisher. I think that speed is such an important aspect of comic books and actual combat that it's really a shame not to use it for something other than getting from place to place.
Ok, thanks. Yes, starting locations tended to have either very limited combat (1 player vs 3 enemies) and low level characters without any of the movement powers I mentioned. Level 25 characters would tend to give a better example, since by that time it was common to have all movement powers enhanced to match the above, and be either teamed or solo fighting large groups of enemies in rapid succession.
The other factor is that CoH generally allowed people to stand in one spot and fight, if they wanted to. However, there was usually a benefit to moving, such as optimizing dps, controlling enemy movements to your advantage, or maximizing buff/debuff effectiveness, or reducing incoming damage. In endgame trials, movement and positioning tactics were required to avoid death or severe debuffs, It wasn't perfect - some complained that meleers were unfairly forced to suspend combat too often to avoid harm while ranged classes faced few interruptions, others complained that many trial bosses were just big bags of HP with annoying (rather than creative) mechanics.
Here's a Lambda trial video that illustrates the possible combat movement speed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaZBIVDB4xg
Some players besides the one recording the video are better examples, as this player seemed to not be using many combat movement powers. He uses super jump, but that was generally not an optimal power for low ceilings and combat movement. At about the 6 minute mark, the temp power collection phase began, which highlights the speed with which players could move, engage, disengage, and reposition in combat. At 11 minutes, the Incarnate AV (trial boss) appears with a long cutscene, and you can see some of traditional boss trial mechanics kick in (red warnings, instakills), and the team ultimately fails. Sadly, in many CoH trials it was the lead up, not the final fight, that was far more interesting.
I understand the argument that because there are examples of superheroes in comic books who use superhuman speed while attacking that a game like CoT should account for that. The fundamental problem with that is how do you balance the game for the other examples of superheroes in those settings who do NOT use excessive speed?
The problem I see with allowing characters to use blinding speed as a basis for attack and defense is that it automatically puts every PC (and NPC) that can't fight on that level at a severe disadvantage. Now that kind of thing usually isn't a problem for a comic book because the writers have complete control over what's happening and can make sure the "superspeed" depicted in the story is used to serve the purposes of the story. When you try to translate that into a MMO setting all you'll get is a situation where if you're not a super-speeder of some kind you're always going to be at a permanent disadvantage to those that are.
Now I'm not advocating that everyone must move at a snail's pace or that combat must always take place while stationary. I just think you need to step back and consider the real problems you're going to unleash if you allow the concept of "superspeed" to be expressed to its fullest, unregulated extreme in a MMO. There's a fine line between having "cool super-fast action" in a game like this and total unbalanced chaos where everyone's just kitting and twitching wildly back-n-forth across the screen.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The only proposal was for Super Speed, but what about other Traveling powers? It all sounds awesome, but implementing such a system may take an eternity when considering all the possible combinations. Also, I don't think the masses would be comfortable participating in such fast-paced battles on a regular basis. Especially if you cannot control how you maneuver your character effectively. Such as darting across the sky, attempt to stop, but you end up sliding from your destination point until momentum expires.
In other games I have played, I have seen implementations that would mimic such effects on a smaller, more playable scale. For example:
- A "Charge" short-duration buff that grants you great speed and a bonus to damage when you perform attack(s).
- Player must be airborne (such as jumping) to perform this blow.
- Opponent must be airborne to perform this blow.
- Player must be positioned (infront of, below, above, beside, or behind) the opponent to perform this attack.
- Player must (Evade, Parry, Miss, or Resist) to perform this blow.
- Opponent must (Evade, Parry, Miss, or Resist) to perform this blow.
My thought is that combat can be made to look and to feel fast without requiring you to react to an opponent's animation.
I personally am not opposed to some 'carebear twitch' elements being optional, but there is a far cry between that and requiring them to be successful, IMHO.
______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
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Exactly. I worry about the "escalation" of this to the point where basically everyone would have to be a "superspeeder" of some sort to even have a chance to be relevant in combat. It's like the technological divide between wooden sailing ships and metal steam ships - once people started making the later the former became instantly obsolete. I don't really want to play a superhero based game where my character concepts are effectively forced to accept some form of superspeed as a fundamental mode of movement.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Lothic-The problem I see with allowing characters to use blinding speed as a basis for attack and defense is that it automatically puts every PC (and NPC) that can't fight on that level at a severe disadvantage.
Unless that is the powerset they use.
The op's suggestion is creative and I would like to see Flight, Superspeed , teleport or jumping have more combat uses. The implementation of added benefit for having the power seems like something for nothing (not saying that's what he wanted)
But, as I said in another thread, what about a powerset built around these travel powers. A speed set that focuses on the combat aspect of superspeed maybe one for offence and one for defence. One for flight, jumping teleport too.
Still keep those travel power pools of course, just give a set for the combat applications of travel powers. I mean lightning rod was effectively teleport with an aoe.
How would you propose to balance travel based combat powers and/or a powerset specifically dedicated towards super-movement based combat? Would there be a bunch of Slow/Snare type Control countermeasures that other PCs and NPCs could use to mitigate this fundamental advantage?
The problem is not people moving fast while fighting others. The problem is whether or not "normal-moving" characters would be able to counter the super-movers with appropriate balances. Think about one of the YouTube examples AJSB used to describe this general suggestion: we see a battle-trained Kyptonian absolutely annihilating a bunch of hapless normal human soldiers with superspeed attacks. While that certainly looked good in the movie that scenario would basically never be allowed to happen between otherwise equal level opponents in a properly balanced MMO. Maybe the closest MMO analog to that would be a level 50 hero trashing a bunch of level 1 villains in Atlas Park.
Again what might "make sense" or "seems appropriate" in a comic book or movie isn't necessarily going to easily translate into a MMO setting.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Lothic-How would you propose to balance travel based combat powers and/or a powerset specifically dedicated towards super-movement based combat? Would there be a bunch of Slow/Snare type Control countermeasures that other PCs and NPCs could use to mitigate this fundamental advantage?
The problem is not people moving fast while fighting others. The problem is whether or not "normal-moving" characters would be able to counter the super-movers with appropriate balances.
I don't think I got my point across.
I'm not advocating the OP's new combat SYSTEM for travel powers, I'm offering a counter proposal, a powerset which uses the travel power as an inspiration for the effects.
Powers like sands of mu or the previously mentioned lightning rod already simulate a travel power based attack.
I mean you could shoehorn martial arts and reflexes for a speedster but it was just that, accepting something not quite right (for me at least).
To be more clear, each power in the set is something the travel power could or would have. Mechanically they would
just be an attack or defence with travel power animation.
Examples (poor examples but examples)
A defence power that looks like matrix dodging for speed defence
An aoe that has the speedster or teleporter flash around foes in range.
A flying slam where the flyer zooms into a group.
Again let me stress these sets SIMULATE speed in combat through power animation or effects, they don't change the combat mechanic.
These sets are not meant to replace the power pool sets, just give the ability to have a character based around one power. If you think about it, Magneto can fly but Angel is a flyer. Flash and Superman can run fast, but Flash is a speedster. Doctor Strange teleports but Nightcrawler uses it in combat.
The travel pools from CoH already included powers that were "thematically related" to the main travel power in the pool. I wouldn't have any problem with something like those travel pools having more than five powers each in CoT to give players the option to have a large number of "travel themed" powers to go along with whatever main [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]primary/secondary[/url] powersets they chose.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Why does it have to be limited to a power pool? Why do I need to choose a primary or secondary that does not fit the mold then ignore it for more than 5 power pool choices.
As I said there are heroes and vills whose focus is based around a travel power, Nightcrawler, Flash, Angel, Quicksilver, Baltrog the Leaper, Zoom, ect ect ect.
They focused on those travel powers in s way as to make it their primary and secondary.
Saying 'take other primary or secondary powers, ignore them and focus on a power pool seem odd to me. Its like saying The flash can learn how to shoot electricity from his eyes but decided to focus on his speed. Or to look at it another way, making Mr. Fantastics stretching a power pool option.
The idea of a primary/secondary based on a travel power in no way limits anyone. The powers don't make you faster or do more damage so not having the set wont hamper you.
Yes CoH had a couple powers in the travel set and yes a few more might be cool....but to say The only way to get speed power is from a power pool seems limiting and ignores heroes and vills who core is that travel power.
Edited-This is getting very close to thread jacking if not already jacked so I will end my comments hear and actually start one based on this idea.
I linked to CoTs [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]powerset chart[/url] for a reason in my last post. How would you incorporate entire primary/secondary powersets that are "travel oriented" into the mix presented by the chart? And even if you could do that I believe you'd start to once again have far more problems balancing these full "travel powersets" against the "non-travel powesets". By providing the compromise of large travel pools you'd avoid many of the problems while maintaining more flexibility in character concepts.
I understand that there are superheroes in the comic books that are totally focused around what CoH and CoT would call "travel powers". I'm simply making the point that when you try to shoehorn that concept into a MMO game it would be very hard to make that work in a balanced way.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think the only way SS attacks could reasonably be handled is by simply looking at the powers in terms of animation. The truth is, one player can't react significantly faster than another. You can't really build faster reaction times into a character that that the player doesn't posess. However, you can make the animation of the power "look" fast. For the moment let's set aside "balance" issues, cuz its assumed that it will be necessary to make it work with other power sets.
So, say your SuperSpeed power set includes some "lunge" type attacks which would work basically like a ranged power. You start out of melee range, you fire your attack and your character zips in, does a rapid-fire pummel animation, then zips back out to their original postion. There could be a couple variations on this, but they work basically like ranged attacks. (I could see the "end position" of the attack one of the variables that would make it different from a common ranged attack.)
Melee attacks are just that, the character stands in melee range and delivers lightning-fast combinations. Maybe there's a "stun" side-effect attached to it, as well.
Defense/Resistance, would basically have to be a passive/automatic affair. (see above re: character v. player reaction times) But perhaps you could add a "hyper-phase" defense where you become intangible. You can't hit or be hit, but you can move.
Heck, you could even have some crowd control powers in the mix. Spinning like a super-fast top causing a vortex AoE like a mini-tornado.
As far as integrating your movement power with your attacks, that's tricky if we are allowed to pick our movement type irrespective of our power sets. I can easily see that leading to Tank/Magery. However, I suggest the compromise that if you use an attack with your travel power turned on, you take an accuracy de-buff.
Really, it's just a matter of looking at it from the point of view of what CAN we do, and how can it FEEL a particular way. The power set doesn't have to provide inherent advantages over other sets. Just feel a particular way.
I refer you to the other thread.
Exactly what I have been saying....
So are your "travel power" oriented powersets [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]Manipulation[/url] styled sets? Or maybe [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]Assault[/url]? What if I wanted a "superspeeder" that's more like a Controller but your superspeed-oriented powerset would lock me into playing only like a Scrapper?
I've understood what you've been saying. It's just that your responses are woefully inadquate to explaining how you'd logically fit your idea into the game the CoT Devs are actually making. At least I've offered a workable compromise with expanding the travel pool powers that would let ANY AT play as a travel-oriented character.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
One thing I have always hated in suggestion threads is the exactly defined 'this is what I want' post. It draws in the 'your one point out of a hundred won't work' crowd. Lothic it is a futile exercise to define a powerset suggestion until every aspect of the powerset, combat and gameplay mechanic is revealed. If you truly understood what I was saying then you would see that I wanted a thematic travel power set, it did not matter to me what the effects were.
But to answer you question, treat the travel power set as you would any other set. To use the easy examples, CoH had a dark melee, dark blast, dark control ect......I want the same for speed or flight or teleport or leap. Or even another way to explain it, A punch from super strength is balanced into the game, why not a punch with super speed be balanced too.
As far as how to Implement it I leave that to the guys who actually know the system in and out.
The simplest solution is also the most elegant one in this situation.
Animations.
Travel Powerset Attacks as Animation Sets for other themes.
A Control set, for example, with an AoE fear power could have an animation where the hero appears to teleport randomly and rapidly around the fight to startle enemies as part of a teleportation ANIMATION for a control set.
Ranged sets of 'bashing' or 'blunt' damage types could include teleportation or 'blurred image due to super speed' of the ranged character moving in to 'punch' the enemy before moving back, all without the character actually moving from where they are.
Melee sets based around travel powers are even easier to make animations for, especially if the character in question is a super-speeder. One simple example would be a stun with DoT melee attack where the super-speed themed animation has the hero zipping over to the affected target every so often and smacking them around again, all while the player is free to use other attacks because it's only an animation and they are super fast.
Justification for why they can move so blindingly fast in combat while having a travel speed of only around 100 miles per hour is also easily justified. Adrenaline rushes help facilitate faster movements and snap judgements because of adrenaline itself in combat, meaning it is easier to push yourself that extra bit whereas while travelling you are generally more relaxed.
Honestly, even a 'Ranged, Bleeding' set could have teleportation as an animation style when you factor in the possibility of INTENTIONAL telefragging, or using teleportation energy to do something painful like teleport away a section of skin from an enemy, or teleport a blade or other sharp thing into them so that it pierces them or ruptures more vital pieces of internal anatomy. This could be one such animation set to use for 'Ranged, Bleeding' whereas another could be 'telekinetic sword weilder' who stands out of combat and uses a weapon controlled by telekinesis (or magnetism, or gravity distortion, whatever) to slash, stab, and otherside cut their opponent from a 'safe' distance.
With the ideas I remember MWM proposing, where power effects are not tied down to a single animation, there are a LOT of open options for creative representations of travel powers as an offensive arsenal.
Recall months back where there was talk about how many different ways animations could depict the exact same power? The example used back then was 'rocket punch' with alternate animations encompassing everything from basic 'hand detaches from wrist and flies at the enemy as a projectile before returning' as your standard rocket punch, all the way up to 'hero stands in place and barely moves while the enemy is punched by a summoned demon that then vanishes' which is mechanically the exact same attack, but has a far different visual representation. One of my personal favorites was 'hero creates small portals in midair and can attack through these, punching the enemy from multiple angles without moving their feet once.'
Unless the design and theory of the game has changed radically in the last three months, I very much look forward to seeing a number of alternate animations for each power theme set.
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
I personally hope we see a return to animations with more realistic pacing for characters not employing superspeed. I'm burnt out by the constant shift towards pure twitch gameplay. My personal thought on balancing speedsters:
* Making them burn power quickly when they start employing "overdrive" mechanics.
* Having them take a percentage of the dmg they inflict with certain "high speed impact" abilities (there's ample comic precedent).
* Lower crit chances with most speed-based or speed-boosted attacks.
I imagine I'm not the first to make at least some of these suggestions.