Where the sidewalk ends ...

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Redlynne
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Where the sidewalk ends ...

No no no ... I'm not talking about Shel Silverstein Books ... I'm talking about Zone Map Edges.

Every MMORPG has to find a method to "contain" Players within the Zone Maps. Most Zone Maps are effectively "buckets" that the Players have to stay inside of.

City of Heroes did this most famously with the War Walls to enforce the "bucket" of the Zone the Players were meant to stay within.

Praetoria dispensed with the War Walls, instead resorting to Sonic Fence Pylons in order to enforce "containment" of Players (by "killing" you and forcing you to Rez back inside the Zone Map boundaries if you strayed too far "out of bounds").

World of Warcraft resorts to the "falling off the edge/mountain" principle in a lot of cases, where if you stray too far "out of bounds" beyond the edge of the map your character just starts dying (with the added penalty of potentially being in a place that is impossible to retrieve your corpse from).

Tabula Rasa employed both methods ... where some maps were a walled "bucket" you couldn't climb out of, while other maps had "edges" that fell into chasms where if you "fell off the edge" then it was a hospital trip for you to Rez and resume play.

TERA does both methods as well, although in practice it's more a matter of "invisible walls" preventing you from falling over the edges of the maps (like a stupid dumb block of wood). Heck, the tutorial area in TERA, even before you reach your first Foe NPC has a Guard telling you not to get yourself killed crossing a guarded and well patrolled bridge if you click on them. The bridge, of course, spans a chasm that would be "instant death" if you fell down into it ... which, of course, you can't because there's invisible walls all around preventing you from making a Swan Dive Into Suicide before you even get attacked by a Foe NPC.

The point that I want to make here is that there are essentially two "methods" of containment typically employed to keep Players within the boundaries of Zone Maps ... either "walls" of the "can't go there" variety, or by "killing" the Player (fairly or unfairly) so as to force them to "return" to the interior of the Zone Map. I propose a third alternative for dealing with "Edge Cases" for Zone Maps. I recommend, for City of Titans, a simple ... Log Out.

To use the situation of Praetoria/First Ward/Night Ward, which lacked "barrier" type walls, in a City of Titans context ... what would happen is that if a Player went "off the edge" in a direction that does not lead into a defined space (ie. another Zone Map) then the Player will be given a 10 second warning (much like the Sonic Fence Pylons did) and if the Player has not exited from the "danger zone" at the edge of the map within those 10 seconds, they'll simply be Logged Out of the game. Log back in and you'll be relocated onto the "safe" side of the edge of the Zone Map where you'd gone "out of bounds" for too long.

Note: in a Day Jobs styled context, logging out "beyond the edge" could effectively become a Day Job in and of itself, in either a "commuter" or other long distance "traveler" sort of sense. The key being that there actually *IS* a World beyond the edges of the game's defined maps, even if you can't get to it (YET!).

Doing things this way, where going "over the edge" of the map doesn't "kill" your character or have the boundaries enforced by visible/invisible walls makes the game inherently more extensible in a way that allows the Environment Devs to "build their way out" from whatever the center of town is to encompass the desired areas to expand the game outwards to. It could even allow for the relatively "rapid" development of new neighborhoods and locations that lie "just beyond the edge" of the currently playable area ... AND it allows Zone Maps to be any shape at all desired by the Environment Team since the "edge" of the map is defined as being wherever they want it to be, rather than something enforced by a set of right angles that encloses a defined space. And because "going off the edge" of the Zone Maps merely causes a Log Out instead of a "death" (complete with penalty?) there aren't any potential continuity problems with having the "map edges" retreat over time and the Environment Team completes work on more areas of the City of Titans ... whereas doing things like "busting down the War Walls" in City of Heroes would have caused all kinds of continuity issues/questions to arise (and did in the case of Vanguard's base in the Rikti War Zone).


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Brand X
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I like the invisible wall

I like the invisible wall idea myself.

Automatisch
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Eeeeh every idea has pros and

Eeeeh every idea has pros and cons. I think the log out idea is good, but consider how annoying it would be to venture to the edge of the map, engage an enemy, and then watch as when you are about to finish him, he runs into the "log out" zone. Just out of your reach. Just food for thought

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

Eeeeh every idea has pros and cons. I think the log out idea is good, but consider how annoying it would be to venture to the edge of the map, engage an enemy, and then watch as when you are about to finish him, he runs into the "log out" zone. Just out of your reach. Just food for thought

Taking that one step farther I can see a means of harassing here. Using say a Kickback attacks force someone into and kept in the Log Out area.

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Redlynne
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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

consider how annoying it would be to venture to the edge of the map, engage an enemy, and then watch as when you are about to finish him, he runs into the "log out" zone. Just out of your reach.

You're assuming that Foe NPCs would be "allowed" to run "beyond the boundaries" in ways that Players are not allowed to. That's an almost trivial to program cue to the NPC AI to "keep out" of the places where the NPC is running "out of bounds" ...

RottenLuck wrote:

Taking that one step farther I can see a means of harassing here. Using say a Kickback attacks force someone into and kept in the Log Out area.

If you're talking about Griefing another Player in PvE, you'd have to be an extra special variety of schmuck to go to all the extra effort it would take to be a nuisance in that way. Which isn't to say it would NEVER happen ... just that simply putting yourself into a position to be ABLE to do that requires a lot of incentive to be obnoxious.

If you're talking about PvP ... the idea that you can chain Knockback someone across the map and then off the map has other game balance implications beyond Edge Of Map issues, wouldn't you say? Although, as any Fighting Game arcade player can tell you, the notion of a Ring Out victory isn't exactly a newfangled invention so ... potentially desirable hazard?


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A ring out in a pvp street

A ring out in a pvp street fight between heroes and villians? Not sure that would work.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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Being a city giant using WoWs

Being a city giant using WoWs system wouldn't be a bad idea as long as most of the transition zones are not bottlenecks like they are in wow. This a full living city so each section should flow somewhat seamlessly into the next. The edges of the city are where the real difficulty lies although part of it being a endless sea can work the inland borders would be a bit tougher.

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I personally favor the sonic

I personally favor the sonic fencing approach that Going Rogue took. If you broke through, it would warp you back to the city. Really depends on what storyline excuse they are going with.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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I feel like paradying call of

I feel like paradying call of duty and saying "RETURN TO COMBAT ZONE!". Nah not really, Call of duty was a very narrow corridor like so many modern military shooters. I'd rather CO's approach, the game goes black/white and you just cannot move further or something. Praetoria honestly did one thing I liked, in that you could walk between zones that were close enough to each other without the massive war walls. We should combine that and solid barriers I think(for longer distance zones).

I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.

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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

A ring out in a pvp street fight between heroes and villians? Not sure that would work.

/em facepalm


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Automatisch wrote:
A ring out in a pvp street fight between heroes and villians? Not sure that would work.

/em facepalm

Do you have something to say to the class? You suggested a *ring out* in a pvp match for superheroes. I doubt that sabertooth would agree with *rules* in a fight. The idea of a super losing a fight thanks to a log out - in pvp or pve - is just poorly thought out. Unless you are implying that the devs scrapped the "heroes and villains sharing the same city" idea.I think what I said was very relevant to the topic.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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In the spectrum of "things

In the spectrum of "things the game should do to handle characters going off the edge of a zone map" I'd think logging them off would be almost as bad as the worst alternative which involves some sort of character death. Both death and log-off seem prone to griefing and there's no reason to add anything extra to the game that could enable that.

If the Devs aren't going to use the simple passive warwall type approach then I'd opt for some version of teleportation either in the form of "bouncing" characters back away some safe distance from a given invisible wall/threshold or a longer distance teleport back to some common safe area in the zone. That latter solution worked well enough for CoH's Shadow Shards.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Sabertooth might if he was in

Sabertooth might if he was in a Smash Bros game, where villainous Ganon and "uncontrollable" MewTwo respects whatever rules the match is set to be... In an arena, rules are respected, and not all pvp is world-pvp.

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Presumably we are talking

Presumably we are talking about how differing moralities might abuse/interact with the end of an open world map to grief other players. Not arenas. If character are put in arenas - for whatever reason- I'd agree with you. But, lets focus on how keeping a player from heading to the moon might go.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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YOU may be talking about PvP,

YOU may be talking about PvP, but this thread is about 'the edge of the world', which, face it, is a lousy place to hold a fight.

In Champions. they use the 'invisible wall' method, but I've found Gaps, cracks in the wall, where you can accidentally slip through the geometry. It gets wacky out there.

SWTOR uses the 'killing you softly' method of enforcing boundaries, but has the 'advantage' of clearing the entire map, when you've 'discovered' all of the sectors.

So, it seems like this subject is tied into the question of 'how are maps discovered/cleared'?

Be Well!
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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

I personally favor the sonic fencing approach that Going Rogue took. If you broke through, it would warp you back to the city. Really depends on what storyline excuse they are going with.

They don't need a storyline excuse. Just have an invisible wall. Once you hit the edge of the city, you can't go any further. There really doesn't need to be a storyline reason for it.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

YOU may be talking about PvP, but this thread is about 'the edge of the world', which, face it, is a lousy place to hold a fight.
In Champions. they use the 'invisible wall' method, but I've found Gaps, cracks in the wall, where you can accidentally slip through the geometry. It gets wacky out there.
SWTOR uses the 'killing you softly' method of enforcing boundaries, but has the 'advantage' of clearing the entire map, when you've 'discovered' all of the sectors.
So, it seems like this subject is tied into the question of 'how are maps discovered/cleared'?
Be Well!
Fireheart

I interpret the subject as a containment of a living world and how best to go about it without shattering the feel of the game world. The devs have yet to nail down player interactions so I was throwing something out there that we may want to consider when talking about open world containment systems. You don't use a cage to hold fish. You don't use screen doors to hold a rhino. The devs have been very ambitious in the animal they are creating. We must be equally clever in thinking up a cage.

We could go with the "ever repeating scenery" setup. Like a fed loop of highway or forest environment that goes on without end. At the edge of a map, you enter this and can run all the way until you hit the end of the "loop zone". Then you head on to the "next zone" which is actually the same "loop zone" repeated. This goes on and on until you turn back to the city. This way we don't shatter the illusion of a living world, no one hits a "wall", and no one dies. You may want to mix up this "loop" based on the zone connecting to it.

I am soooo evil for that.

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Redlynne
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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Automatisch wrote:
A ring out in a pvp street fight between heroes and villians? Not sure that would work.

/em facepalm

Do you have something to say to the class? You suggested a *ring out* in a pvp match for superheroes. I doubt that sabertooth would agree with *rules* in a fight. The idea of a super losing a fight thanks to a log out - in pvp or pve - is just poorly thought out. Unless you are implying that the devs scrapped the "heroes and villains sharing the same city" idea.I think what I said was very relevant to the topic.

If you're talking about a street duel between PvPers, worrying about the edge of the map is only an issue if you duel next to the edge of the map (duh!). In my experience, most PvPers don't hang out at the edge of maps to try and ambush other Players into dueling with them (mainly because not a lot of Players "go there" to begin with). Typically, PvPers will congregate in some sort of centralized location (such as Goldshire or outside the gates of Stormwind or Ironforge in World of Warcraft on Alliance side) where there's plenty of open ground in most directions and you don't have to worry about zoning or other potential "hazards" that the environment might cause/offer.

Furthermore, most of the World PvP Dueling setups I've seen (primarily in World of Warcraft) have what amounts to a "limit" on the distance you can move away from the Dueling Flag. Go beyond the "dueling radius" and you are deemed to have "run away" and therefore "lost" the duel ... thank you for playing.

So, what this comes down to is that if you're an idiot and you insist on dueling other Players at the edge of the World Map ... and if the edge of the World Map logs you out IF you stray beyond the edge for "too long" ... who is really to blame here?

One of the most basic concepts in Peer to Peer conflict is to CHOOSE YOUR GROUND. If you choose to fight in a Bad Place™, you have no one to blame BUT YOURSELF ... especially if Dueling (as opposed to just opportunistic World PvPing) is voluntary and requires consent (go figure, eh?).

I mentioned the Ring Out angle as a possibility for an arena type instanced map, where the map is small (so it loads FAST) and if you "fall off" the Dueling Platform you essentially forfeit the match and get logged out (suspension of Dueling Platform by massive chains over pit of lava in the heart of an active volcano being purely "optional" of course). It was just an idea. Of course, the same could be done for World PvP Zones, such as Bloody Bay, Siren's Call or Warburg ... of which, you'll note, only Siren's Call wasn't an island map.

Oh and if you think that supers "won't respect the rules because I'm too awesome for rules" then you clearly don't understand the point, purpose and reason for Dueling. PvP without rules is just Ganking and Griefing (and often even with rules, it's still just Ganking and Griefing) which does not serve the interests of the game, or a (growing) PvP community in which Players RESPECT one another as honorable opponents ... because, hey ... I don't play by the "rules" man.

And nice try on sticking words in my mouth that I never said while dragging in straw men to whack at with the "heroes and villains sharing the same city" remark. Any reading of anything I've said would notice that I hadn't said a single word about alignment segregation of city zones ... because that's completely irrelevant to the subject of Zone Boundaries. Whether a zone is hero or villain aligned makes no difference ... they ALL have edges to them. The only difference is that some of those edges might lead into other (established) zones ... like Nova Praetoria leading to Imperial City leading to Neutropolis ... which is perfectly fine and desired. But then there are going to be OTHER edges to zone maps that lead to places that aren't defined or specified (YET!), and there needs to be a way/means/method to "contain" Players so that they don't stray beyond the boundaries of the map.


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Redlynne
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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

We could go with the "ever repeating scenery" setup. Like a fed loop of highway or forest environment that goes on without end. At the edge of a map, you enter this and can run all the way until you hit the end of the "loop zone". Then you head on to the "next zone" which is actually the same "loop zone" repeated. This goes on and on until you turn back to the city. This way we don't shatter the illusion of a living world, no one hits a "wall", and no one dies. You may want to mix up this "loop" based on the zone connecting to it.

That's a good thought, but I'm afraid that that sort of thing only works in two dimensions when you can break line of sight to where you've been (ie. not a straight road or whatever). The idea of looping "blocks" of space starts breaking down as soon as you start working in three dimensions where you can fly UP and/or potentially swim DOWN underwater. The introduction of 3D movement tends to make those kinds of "involuntary teleportation" loops less than satisfactory in a number of ways, simply because the scope of the available field of view is so much "less controlled" than in a purely 2D movement scenario.


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I never stuck words into your

I never stuck words into your mouth. And I would mind your tone: the mods are watching :P. I am just exploring every option for the widest possible effect: so please, do not insult me for that. If there is a flaw in my thoughts, then that means I am human: just like you. Now, can we chill out, or do you want this to go on?

As for your later comment, I did suggest changing the loop if needed. If you swim to the depths, then you start a "bottomless ocean loop". If you stick to the top you start a "open ocean loop". Take a hard left on the highway, you run into another segment of highway. We are talking about a very vast and barren world once you get past the suburbs. But there is one point it might fail: the sky. We could loop the sky, but honestly: who doesn't want to make it to the moon? Maybe a temporary loop? Until the devs give us the moon. Once we have a moon base, all that is left is space and we can loop that forever.

As for the "lack of control" over the warping loop, that can be solved easily enough. Just don't add too much detail, or flood the area with embellishment: it makes things much more disorienting and acts as a natural deterrent for detailed exploration.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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Hey there!

Hey there!

Just scrolling over the topics, and found this one interesting.

-

Not my place to say, but let's take a breath.

A lot good ideas here. I'll sum up what I see, and if I miss anything, please update the list.

-

Energy walls
"Sonic" fences
Fall to your Death
Invisible walls
Warning at the edge, followed by logout
The map goes black/white
Teleport to somewhere
Ever-repeating scenery/never-ending road (sky)

Keep a few things in mind (at least as I know it): Titan City is planned as one "zone", PVP is entirely voluntary (and may not actually take place in the same Instance as PVE - still in-work), the affects of alignment may have no impact on the OP topic.

Are there any new thoughts, or melding of the above?

-

Terlin

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Ok Map edges.....

Ok Map edges.....

To me the basic question is simply why do we have map edges in the first place? A simplistic question, yes. But the answer is just as simple.
Because the technology cannot handle more than a certain amount of data. This is why zones were set up in the first place, to corral players into easily programmed and controllable segments.

Now I have to admit that I do not know how powerful the engine chosen for this game is, but is it not possible to create blended zones? where one zone blends into another, and when you have passed a specified distance away from the center of one zone you find yourself on the outside edge of another zone?

(just asking and displaying my ignorance).

Now the next question is how to keep players from straying too far? And the answer is surprisingly simple: A whole expanse of nothingness.
In games people act the way they do in life, we are social creatures and we like to be around others. Yes it is sometimes nice to just get away from everyone, but even this does not last. We will always find ourselves interacting with people again.

So if the edge of the city is empty, with nothing there to look at, fly over, or even fight. People will not go there.

I remember playing CoH, and I would have a mission on the edge of a zone,. Often I was the only person who was out there, unless I was in a team. Remember some of the zones of CoH, at the end it was almost impossible to get enough players to do a Frostie mission from who was available in the Hollows. Or how about Perez park, at the end I rarely if ever saw anyone in there because there were no missions to run in there.

Pocket D was almost always empty when there was no special going on. During winter, valentines day etc it was full, but the rest of the time there was no one.

People go where there are thing to do. Nothing to do, and no one will go there. That creates the best zone boundary.

Oh one final thought as well. Upwards, how to contain people from flying forever upwards. You can create a ceiling, but the best ceiling is the "natural ceiling". I.E. The higher you go, the thinner the air gets, the colder it gets. That puts a big limit on what can and cannot be done with height.

yes Technology can overcome that, but the systems required to keep a single person warm in the depths of space for extended periods, is quite complex and bulky. A typical space suit weighs a couple of hundred pounds and has ALOT of complex systems designed to keep the air pressure at about sea level or 32psi.
This is before you get to the bulky, and heavy propellent tank required for EVA maneuvering, and that is before you add the technology that can lift several hundred pounds into space, and then survive the re-entry process (which takes even more specialised tech, and will add more weight and bulk)

All in all, even though tech may eventually be able to overcome these requirements. There is no way it will be able to any time in the near or even mid tearm future.

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rmarks1701 wrote:
rmarks1701 wrote:

Ok Map edges.....
To me the basic question is simply why do we have map edges in the first place? A simplistic question, yes. But the answer is just as simple.
Because the technology cannot handle more than a certain amount of data. This is why zones were set up in the first place, to corral players into easily programmed and controllable segments.
Now I have to admit that I do not know how powerful the engine chosen for this game is, but is it not possible to create blended zones? where one zone blends into another, and when you have passed a specified distance away from the center of one zone you find yourself on the outside edge of another zone?
(just asking and displaying my ignorance).
Now the next question is how to keep players from straying too far? And the answer is surprisingly simple: A whole expanse of nothingness.
In games people act the way they do in life, we are social creatures and we like to be around others. Yes it is sometimes nice to just get away from everyone, but even this does not last. We will always find ourselves interacting with people again.
So if the edge of the city is empty, with nothing there to look at, fly over, or even fight. People will not go there.
I remember playing CoH, and I would have a mission on the edge of a zone,. Often I was the only person who was out there, unless I was in a team. Remember some of the zones of CoH, at the end it was almost impossible to get enough players to do a Frostie mission from who was available in the Hollows. Or how about Perez park, at the end I rarely if ever saw anyone in there because there were no missions to run in there.
Pocket D was almost always empty when there was no special going on. During winter, valentines day etc it was full, but the rest of the time there was no one.
People go where there are thing to do. Nothing to do, and no one will go there. That creates the best zone boundary.

Some of those, with the amount of mission instancing, and how mission locations were allocated, you could have had 40 people in missions *right next door* to you, and you wouldn't know about it.

I will agree with the Hollows problem, although I think that part of that problem arose because it took so long to actually *get* the frostfire mission, that people tended to give up on the hollows.

Not to mention as well that with the flashback system, you could actually skip on the content, and do it numerous levels later. Granted, you couldn't get help in it if you needed it, but you could run it later on without needing someone who had the mission.

To an extent, the flashback system messed up a lot of the "casual" teaming, especially in the later life of the game, because you no longer needed someone who had the mission to actually *do* the mission.

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Not a fan of the Black &

Not a fan of the Black & White. It's still like the invisible wall, but if I end up RPing in that area, it just annoys me not to have the color.

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rmarks1701 wrote:
rmarks1701 wrote:

Now I have to admit that I do not know how powerful the engine chosen for this game is, but is it not possible to create blended zones? where one zone blends into another, and when you have passed a specified distance away from the center of one zone you find yourself on the outside edge of another zone?
(just asking and displaying my ignorance).

TERA is a game playing on the Unreal Engine right now, and it uses what amounts to blended zoning. What I mean by that is that you don't have zone loading screens to wait for between zones when walking/riding a mount. Taking the taxi system in TERA involves flying a pegasus through a wormhole gate system so as to not bother with a loading screen (or at least, not in the way that City of Heroes implemented loading screens).

So as for whether it is "possible" to make zones contiguous and "blend" them together ... the evidence is that it has already been done and that the game engine is fully capable of supporting such endeavors. The trick is being able to do it in such a way as to "fool" the Player(s) into believing the various bits of sleight of hand going on in the background to make such performances possible. This is where the dreaded "make a turn to block line of sight" map design comes into play a lot of the time so as to facilitate these kinds of instant teleports between map segments that happen in ways that are "invisible" to playing experience.

(Un)fortunately, TERA's environment was built "poorly enough" that even in some of the lowbie zones you can find ways to get into places you're not supposed to be able to get to ... allowing you see pretty directly the kinds of cardboard and plywood backing behind a lot of the world construction that you're not supposed to be able to see. Things like "climb this hill" and watch the sun skitter a long way across the sky and you change zones. Other things like "jump through this gap" in the boundary of the spaces around the capital city of Velika and get to see how the city is built/modeled when it is only supposed to be viewed from the outside on 3 of its 4 sides and you can get into the back/4th side that is unfinished (with lots of holes in the ground since you aren't supposed to be there). Mind you, TERA is functionally a 2D "groundpounder" game that doesn't allow Players to engage in Free Flight like City of Heroes did, so they can get away with all kinds of "unfinished" work everywhere in places you're not supposed to be able to get into.

World of Warcraft essentially experienced the same phenomenon, where the world had essentially been designed as a set of "buckets" ... and areas that people weren't supposed to see (or get into) were just left unfinished. Then when World of Warcraft wanted to give people the ability to earn Flying Mounts and thus Free Flight to anywhere and everywhere, they essentially needed to REBUILD THE ENTIRE WORLD ENVIRONMENT to as to make the world "compliant" with a Players Can Go Anywhere And See ANYTHING mandate ... which had NOT been the case previously. So this is a rather non-trivial commitment of resources.

rmarks1701 wrote:

Now the next question is how to keep players from straying too far? And the answer is surprisingly simple: A whole expanse of nothingness.
In games people act the way they do in life, we are social creatures and we like to be around others. Yes it is sometimes nice to just get away from everyone, but even this does not last. We will always find ourselves interacting with people again.

I'm going to make a subtle but important distinction here. Having "nothing to do" in a particular area will reduce/limit TRAFFIC in that area, simply because not a whole lot of people will go there. It will not, however, PREVENT people from going there. Furthermore, large expanses of "nothing to see here" still requires an awful lot of development to create (ironically enough), particularly when your setting is a cityscape rather than just "miles and miles of nothing in between but miles and miles of nothing in between" (in other words ... Australia!).

rmarks1701 wrote:

Oh one final thought as well. Upwards, how to contain people from flying forever upwards. You can create a ceiling, but the best ceiling is the "natural ceiling". I.E. The higher you go, the thinner the air gets, the colder it gets. That puts a big limit on what can and cannot be done with height.
yes Technology can overcome that, but the systems required to keep a single person warm in the depths of space for extended periods, is quite complex and bulky. A typical space suit weighs a couple of hundred pounds and has ALOT of complex systems designed to keep the air pressure at about sea level or 32psi.
This is before you get to the bulky, and heavy propellent tank required for EVA maneuvering, and that is before you add the technology that can lift several hundred pounds into space, and then survive the re-entry process (which takes even more specialised tech, and will add more weight and bulk)

Um ... the Silver Surfer and a whole horde of other superheroes who have *no problem* being in space would like to have a word with you about your assumptions on the limitations of the superheroic genre.


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I like the logout idea and

I like both the logout idea (including day job! lol) and the repeating scenery idea. It doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all solution. Actual barriers could still be used when appropriate.

One thing I hate is when devs try to illustrate an impassable barrier using regular difficult terrain that doesn't look impassable, but merely challenging. SWTOR did this a lot. If I absolutely am not allowed to go from A to B, put an actual cliff, energy field, etc there that makes your intent obvious. Do not place a jumble of difficult rocky ledges in between A and B that can be traversed by someone with more pigheaded stubbornness than you assumed possible, only to be blocked at the last (and usually not the most difficult) jump by an invisible wall.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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There are gamers, I sometimes

There are gamers, I sometimes resemble one, who find the map and the Geometry of the game is also a worthy 'opponent'. Particularly when Flight is not a default movement. Then, I find myself climbing mountains to see what's on the other side.

Then, finding the small, hidden 'beauty spot' becomes a thrill, a 'gift' from the Devs. Seeing into the next area, or getting an overview of the one I'm in, is great, and finding a 'secret way' into the backside of the next space makes being insta-ganked by the over-leveled mobs there completely worthwhile.

I find that this behavior can be strongly influenced by the 'type' of 'fog of war' that is present. In CoH, Champions, and many other games, the obscuring black/grey that covers undiscovered territory is only cleared by the passage of the player-character. This encourages explorer-types to go out, push the edges, and and find out what's out there, under the cover.

In SWTOR and other games, entering a particular segment of the map auto-clears that area and, when all of the segments of a given map have been cleared, then the entire map is automatically cleared. I find that, in general, this style of map-clearance does not engage my edge-seeking drive, but I still look for shortcuts and hidden features within the map.

In any case, _I_ am not offended by invisible walls at the edge of creation, but I am... irked by 'glass mountains' that cannot be climbed and 'impenetrable forests' that cannot be entered by a reasonably agile person.

However, this will be a City and the heroes in it will not be completely land-bound. That means that the 'glass mountains' and 'impenetrable forests' will be Buildings. Also, the 'hidden terrain' will hardly be hidden from a mapping satellite and the City Planners will absolutely have reasonably up-to-date plans of just about every structure, infra-structure, and sub-structure in the place. This means that the gross layout of the place has no point in being hidden, and even the more regular details would be easy to discover on 'Google Maps'. So there's basically no reason to hide any of this overall data from the players.

'Fog of War' should only obscure the Details, not hide a street or a building that would show up on a map of the area, and general details should be immediately apparent to anyone looking the area over. 'Fog of War' that covers Ocean is ludicrous, since the ocean is kinda obvious. Ditto for major geographical features. Don't bother 'hiding' the mountains, anyone can see them.

What should and would be hidden are the secret modifications or excavations made by the denizens of these places. So, inside instances and buildings, even the most investigative hero may be surprised. Still, it would be nice if the Devs laid out these inside maps in a reasonably realistic fashion. Perhaps some maps and layouts of Actual Places could be used as templates? That would tend to limit occasions of the strange hallway that doesn't lead anywhere and the room with no discernible purpose.

I think what I'm suggesting is a 'staged' obscurement, where a player's map of the city shows 'everything' except the details, until they visit an area, or otherwise investigate it. Then they'll be able to see slightly more detail, but it won't all be clear until they've walked inside the buildings and alleys.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I'd like to have something

I'd like to have something where we could see the 'other side' even if we can't go there. It adds depth to the perception that the world continues outside Titan City. Sort of like adding mirrors to a room makes it LOOK bigger to your mind.

As to WHY we can't go there, I don't see a need for any storyline at all. I'd go with the logout idea personally.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

I'd like to have something where we could see the 'other side' even if we can't go there. It adds depth to the perception that the world continues outside Titan City. Sort of like adding mirrors to a room makes it LOOK bigger to your mind.
As to WHY we can't go there, I don't see a need for any storyline at all. I'd go with the logout idea personally.

I'd agree with making zone edges appear effectively "endless" (several good examples for this have already been suggested) and that we really don't need any storyline explanation for how the game handles people trying to move beyond the edges

But I can barely imagine anything that would be more annoying than suffering from auto logouts and/or death just because I touched/crossed an invisible zone boundary. Zone boundaries will exist in CoT due to meta limitations in the game's overall MMO design, not because the Devs actually want them to exist. To force people to suffer serious and unnecessarily negative penalties from accidentally brushing up against these structural thresholds would be at the very least excessive and at worse borderline sadistic.

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The "Endless Scrolling Sea"

The "Endless Scrolling Sea" on one side seems a reasonable containment method. So does a "Fade to Black (with stars)" as a vertical barrier. As for the land boundary on the other side, well, I'll be okay with whatever. I don't need a storyline reason, either. In fact, I'd rather hit an invisible wall in the sky than get dumped unceremoniously back into the zone or logged out.

Think I'll start another thread about Discoveryand Exploration methods...See ya there.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

I'd like to have something where we could see the 'other side' even if we can't go there. It adds depth to the perception that the world continues outside Titan City. Sort of like adding mirrors to a room makes it LOOK bigger to your mind.
As to WHY we can't go there, I don't see a need for any storyline at all. I'd go with the logout idea personally.

While I think the game should go with the invisible wall to say "You've reached the edge of the map" I do like the idea of seeing something else on the other side and not just a blank area.

I don't need a game storyline to tell me why I can't leave the city (war wall or sonic barrier). As an RPer I'm more than able to accept that the game world can only be so big.

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Maybe have a sign that says

Maybe have a sign that says "Now Leaving City Limits." At least were the roads are connected just for laughs. Me I don't mind the invisible walls there come a time where immersion has to take a step back for logic. There going to be some kind of wall one way or another if it's War Walls, Unpassable mountains, endless sea, or a kill/log out system. I prefer the painted walk maybe with even some animation then force death or log out.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But I can barely imagine anything that would be more annoying than suffering from auto logouts and/or death just because I touched/crossed an invisible zone boundary.

/em sigh

The condition suggested for the logout is not because the "out of bounds" region got "touched" as you put it ... but because you went into it and stayed in it for 10 seconds. That could very easily be increased from 10 to 15 to 20 seconds with very little effort. I chose 10 seconds because that limits the amount of "extra distance" that someone could potentially move (at maximum allowed speed) into The Forbidden Zone on the edges of the map (that don't connect to other zone maps). The point being it isn't an "INSTANT" Log Out when you stick a pinky toe over the line. Instead you get a warning and a countdown ... which I'd point out is functionally the same way that the Sonic Barrier Fence worked around the Praetorian Zones (except that they achieved their "countdown" by trying to kill you with Unresistable Damage).

If the "penalty" for brushing up against the Log Out Barrier Zone was an instant log out ... then yeah, you'd have a leg to stand on with your objection. But 10 seconds of notice, if not more? Sorry, but I can't even play the world's smallest violin for you on that one because you don't deserve it. And even if you *DO* fail to exit the Log Out Barrier Zone in time ... what happens? You get logged out ... and when you log back in (which you can do immediately), you spawn back in on the "safe" side of the line at the edge of the map so you don't have to worry about being put into a repeating forced log out circumstance. In other words, the edge of the map doesn't act like a Sand Trap that you can't get out of on repeated attempts. Instead, the Log Out Barrier Zone ejects you from the danger zone when you log back in ... and it's then up to you, the Player, to prove that you've "Learned" something. To quote Paul Krugman out of context:

Paul Krugman wrote:

There’s a scene in one of the Three Stooges movies — if any readers know which one, please let me know — in which we see Curly banging his head repeatedly against a wall. Moe asks why he’s doing that, and Curly says, “Because it feels so good when I stop.”


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Face it no matter the system

Face it no matter the system the are going to be people trying to get beyond the map and under it. The Auto Logout system or Kill system after X amount of time I bet is to stop that more soundly then trying to patch any holes where a person could slip through.

But if that happens how are we get to the Matrix room?

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
But I can barely imagine anything that would be more annoying than suffering from auto logouts and/or death just because I touched/crossed an invisible zone boundary.
/em sigh
The condition suggested for the logout is not because the "out of bounds" region got "touched" as you put it ... but because you went into it and stayed in it for 10 seconds. That could very easily be increased from 10 to 15 to 20 seconds with very little effort. I chose 10 seconds because that limits the amount of "extra distance" that someone could potentially move (at maximum allowed speed) into The Forbidden Zone on the edges of the map (that don't connect to other zone maps). The point being it isn't an "INSTANT" Log Out when you stick a pinky toe over the line. Instead you get a warning and a countdown ... which I'd point out is functionally the same way that the Sonic Barrier Fence worked around the Praetorian Zones (except that they achieved their "countdown" by trying to kill you with Unresistable Damage).
If the "penalty" for brushing up against the Log Out Barrier Zone was an instant log out ... then yeah, you'd have a leg to stand on with your objection. But 10 seconds of notice, if not more? Sorry, but I can't even play the world's smallest violin for you on that one because you don't deserve it. And even if you *DO* fail to exit the Log Out Barrier Zone in time ... what happens? You get logged out ... and when you log back in (which you can do immediately), you spawn back in on the "safe" side of the line at the edge of the map so you don't have to worry about being put into a repeating forced log out circumstance. In other words, the edge of the map doesn't act like a Sand Trap that you can't get out of on repeated attempts. Instead, the Log Out Barrier Zone ejects you from the danger zone when you log back in ... and it's then up to you, the Player, to prove that you've "Learned" something. To quote Paul Krugman out of context:
Paul Krugman wrote:
There’s a scene in one of the Three Stooges movies — if any readers know which one, please let me know — in which we see Curly banging his head repeatedly against a wall. Moe asks why he’s doing that, and Curly says, “Because it feels so good when I stop.”

I don't really care if you meant the logout penalty would happen instantly, happen after 10 seconds, or happen after 3.9 years. The idea of associating such a relatively drastic penalty to how the game handles dealing with the zone borders seems overly negative and pointless in ANY capacity. What problem are you actually trying to solve with a logout that couldn't be solved with at least half-a-dozen less punitive measures?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

Face it no matter the system the are going to be people trying to get beyond the map and under it. The Auto Logout system or Kill system after X amount of time I bet is to stop that more soundly then trying to patch any holes where a person could slip through.
But if that happens how are we get to the Matrix room?

If the Devs want to try to keep people from looking for "cracks" in the zone walls you don't have to use the threat of death or logouts. What would be wrong (for instance) with the game throwing you backward with a 20 foot teleport every time you touched the invisible wall? You don't need penalties any more annoying than that for this particular situation.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I don't really care if you meant the logout penalty would happen instantly, happen after 10 seconds, or happen after 3.9 years. The idea of associating such a relatively drastic penalty to how the game handles dealing with the zone borders seems overly negative and pointless in ANY capacity. What problem are you actually trying to solve with a logout that couldn't be solved with at least half-a-dozen less punitive measures?

HAHAHAHAAHAHAhahahahhahhahahahahahahaaaa!!!!

/em falls out of chair laughing uncontrollably


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Agreed Lothic. Don't care

Agreed Lothic. Don't care for the logout method of anything. No need to log someone out, when an invisible wall will keep them from going anywhere.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I don't really care if you meant the logout penalty would happen instantly, happen after 10 seconds, or happen after 3.9 years. The idea of associating such a relatively drastic penalty to how the game handles dealing with the zone borders seems overly negative and pointless in ANY capacity. What problem are you actually trying to solve with a logout that couldn't be solved with at least half-a-dozen less punitive measures?
HAHAHAHAAHAHAhahahahhahhahahahahahahaaaa!!!!
/em falls out of chair laughing uncontrollably

Never thought I could amuse someone by pointing out the relative indefensibility of their argument. *shrugs*

You'll note that not only did I not mention anything about time periods with relation to when your logout would occur but I also used the phrase "crossed an invisible zone boundary" which clearly implies the possibility of something that could easily be non-instantaneous. You jumped on the sloppy assumption that I was only concerned with INSTANT logouts and ran with it. Now who has the Three Stooges pie all over their face?

Now if you'd care to be a little more civil you are still free to explain why the concept of logouts (in any form or fashion) needs to be related to zone boundary management at all.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Just going to post my

Just going to post my indifference.

LOL

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Now who has the Three Stooges pie all over their face?

Nice try with the "I'm rubber and you're glue" gambit. Unfortunately for you, it's been tried (and failed miserably) before.

Lothic wrote:

Now if you'd care to be a little more civil you are still free to explain why the concept of logouts (in any form or fashion) needs to be related to zone boundary management at all.

LINK

Point.
Click.
Read.

If your reading comprehension is (still) inadequate to the task, then I cannot help you (by definition). Good day, sir.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Now who has the Three Stooges pie all over their face?
Nice try with the "I'm rubber and you're glue" gambit. Unfortunately for you, it's been tried (and failed miserably) before.
Lothic wrote:
Now if you'd care to be a little more civil you are still free to explain why the concept of logouts (in any form or fashion) needs to be related to zone boundary management at all.
LINK
Point.
Click.
Read.
If your reading comprehension is (still) inadequate to the task, then I cannot help you (by definition). Good day, sir.

Okay, so you've self-referenced your original post, but that does not explain why a log-out is an appropriate response to hanging out on the rim. Why does the rim of the world need to be defended at all?

You mention 'continuity problems' caused by expansion and development. I presume you mean "I was out here last week and there was an invisible wall, but now there's farm with rabid nuclear cows and silos that fire flaming explosive chickens at anyone that flies nearby. How could I have missed that before?!?!?"

All I can say to that is, "Well, sir, your world has been retconned to include a crazy farm. Surely, as a comic hero, you're used to that by now? Why, just a few months ago, there was an unexplained explosion of green martians and retro-sci-fi bubble-helmets. What else is new?"

So, perhaps you'd care to Clarify why 'not death but logout' is a better experience?

Really, Redlynne, a question is not a personal attack, you don't have to treat them that way.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Why does the rim of the world need to be defended at all?

Because world maps are finite. They have "borders" or edges to them. You aren't dealing with a 1:1 scale globe which is "edgeless" because it wraps around in 3D. Going off the edge of the map is a "problem" that needs to be dealt with *somehow* so as to confine Players to the defined area/volume of the zone.

Among other things there are "hazards" such as potentially "falling forever" if there isn't a surface to stand on after "falling off the edge" of the map. TERA, which uses the Unreal Engine like City of Titans will, has places where "holes in the containment" of the maps allow Players to "fall off the edge" of the world and then proceed to effectively "fall forever" because there's nothing to catch them. And since things like porting to your home capital city can't be done while you're falling (in TERA) ... it then becomes a customer service issue to recover your character back to the playable areas of the game. In fact TERA is relatively "poorly" contained, in my opinion, since I was able to find multiple avenues to get into places I wasn't supposed to be able to get to just in the first few zones after leaving the Newbie Island.

With a map of finite size, you need to have a way to keep Players within the finite volume that has been defined. As I outlined in my original post, which I referenced again, there are multiple paths and strategies that can achieve this purpose. I merely wanted to add another option onto the stack of choices.

Fireheart wrote:

Okay, so you've self-referenced your original post, but that does not explain why a log-out is an appropriate response to hanging out on the rim.

Because it achieves the desired goal of providing an incentive to NOT try to go beyond the boundaries of the map. A forced Log Out is just as effective a "buzz kill" to playing as an enforced Defeat that could carry a Death Penalty (loss of XP, loss of items, loss of currency, you get the idea). Kind of like telling a child "don't stick your hand in/on the hot thing, you'll burn yourself" and letting the experience of Cause And Effect teach its own lesson (if needed).

City of Heroes had 3 methods of Zone Containment. War Walls (Paragon City) ... Blue Force Fields (Rogue Islands, Ouroboros, Croatoa, etc.) ... and the invisible Sonic Fences of Praetoria. The War Walls were ... ridiculous. Just looking at them you could only assume that it cost more to construct and maintain them than the contents of the city they were supposed to be protecting. Those War Walls must have consumed more construction materials AND POWER than everything else in the Zones they encircled, which made Paragon City dramatically less than realistic. The Blue Force Fields were a more "elegant" solution, since they were "invisible walls" that became visible when you got close enough to them ... but they too made no sense whatsoever, since there wasn't any logistical chain obviously supporting them (ie. nothing generating them). They were just "there" with no supporting reasoning, which kinda sorta broke immersion (although not as badly as the War Walls did since you only saw them up close).

The Sonic Fences of Praetoria were the "best" solution that City of Heroes implemented, in that there were "obvious" reasons why the sonic fence was there (there were generators which could be seen) and there was something of a Game Lore reason for the Fence to exist (to keep the Devouring Earth and the Hamidon OUT!). So you essentially had an invisible "death field" surrounding the zones, which then allowed you (as an Environment Developer) to have views and vistas showing the wider outside world. The result was a "cage" that felt like it was "open" rather than closed, even if it was still "closed" by being completely surrounded by the "death field" of the Sonic Fence Pylons.

So I look at the "death field" option, ask myself what would be "as effective a deterrent" as having a "death field" instead ... and come to the conclusion that a Log Out field would achieve the same purpose and be just as effective as a "death field" would, without running the risk of drawing a Death Penalty. It's simple, it's easy, it's effective, and if the forced Log Out happens, when logging back in (which, as I'd pointed out previously, can be done immediately) the Player is relocated onto the "safe" side of the edge boundary within the confines of the zone map ... which is the behavioral result that you want to have from a "containment system" intended to confine Players within the usable volume of the Zone Map.

Fireheart wrote:

You mention 'continuity problems' caused by expansion and development. I presume you mean "I was out here last week and there was an invisible wall, but now there's farm with rabid nuclear cows and silos that fire flaming explosive chickens at anyone that flies nearby. How could I have missed that before?!?!?"

In this respect, if you're building an extensible world where not every single Zone is created at Game Launch, you're going to want to use invisible walls (Blue Force Fields, say) rather than highly visible and very "solid" walls (War Walls) to define the boundaries of your Zone Maps, simply because it's a lot easier (and more believable) to retcon an invisible wall than is to retcon an all too visible one. I mean ... think about it. What if Independence Port had been extended westward after game launch to include more area to the west?

I actually recommended to Think Tank (the City of Heroes World Designer) at the last Player Summit that the area west of Independence Port ought to include RAIL YARDS where cargo from the ships loading and unloading on the docks would have put their containers onto rail cars to be shipped out to other parts of New England ... before the Rikti Invasion came and the War Walls went up. Now imagine if 2/3rds of the western War Wall of Independence Port had been "taken down" and a huge swath of land to the west were opened up ... with a huge amount of extra War Walls installed to contain the expansion. It kind of beggars belief that anything like that could happen on a time scale not involving YEARS (if not a decade) simply due to the scale of the construction necessary to accomplish the task.

In other words, the highly visible War Walls were basically continuity points that were almost impossible to "move" in order to expand the playable area of the world. They were simply "too big and heavy and solid" to convincingly move around to expand the zones they encompassed. And then you had "bigger on the inside than on the outside" problems with Terra Volta Island ... which, once again, couldn't be "solved" because you had the War Walls defining the Playable Volume far too rigidly.

So the best possible solution is a "mostly invisible" one, where you can push back the boundaries of the world and extend it as the Environment Developers complete their work so as to retcon new spaces into existence as the City of Titans "grows" into the future. Blue Force Fields "work" for this in that they do the job, but they are lacking in that they exist without any kind of generation capacity (the way that City of Heroes did it), such that they were just "there" and that was it (deal with it). The Sonic Fences with their Pylon Generators made the best solution, since the Pylons themselves were deep enough inside their own "death field" that Players couldn't reasonably damage them, meaning that Player Sabotage of the containment system at the edge of the map really wasn't "reasonable" (never mind feasible/allowed by the game mechanics).

An enforced Log Out volume caused by "Leaving The City" however gives you the border guarding features of the Sonic Fences without requiring Art Assets akin to the Sonic Pylons, has the benefit of being an "invisible" boundary since there's nothing solid there to either run into or which will block your view of the wider world, it is an effective "deterrent" against Players stubbornly and deliberately trying to go "beyond the map" (or at least past the edge), and is something that can be "moved" with the least amount of fuss and disruption of visible Art Elements when expanding the map to incorporate future developments.

Fireheart wrote:

So, perhaps you'd care to Clarify why 'not death but logout' is a better experience?

Because an enforced Log Out, when it is telegraphed adequately, is something that doesn't have an associated penalty to it (aside from the "buzz kill" of no longer being logged in and playing the game). A "death zone" however can invoke a Death Penalty (as already mentioned) and is something that effectively enforces the notion that the City of Titans is a cage/prison and that trying to escape from it means DEATH. While an enforced Log Out conceptually could simply mean "you have left the city" and are unharmed ... but are now in a place where you can't behave like a superhero (enter Secret Identity opportunities). Besides as a fan of The Prisoner I'd rather not associate City of Titans with "Where am I? In the Village." ... let alone feeling like if I try to escape Rover will come after me because I don't want to say ... "Be seeing you."

An enforced Log Out doesn't mean your character has "died" ... just that you stop being a superhero until you return to the City of Titans ... which is basically the same thing as logging out (by choice) within the confines of the city proper. This is why I suggested the possibility of using the enforced Log Out at the edge of the World Map as an opportunity for a Day Job type system which could then be tied in with your Secret Identity.

Furthermore, for roleplaying opportunities, this would mean that your character could "leave town" and go to other cities(!) ... like Boston or New York or Philadelphia ... or whatever ... rather than being explicitly (and eternally?) "confined" within the city limits of the City of Titans ... and with a Day Job system that sort of roleplaying could even be game mechanically supported.


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Redlynne, are you suggesting

Redlynne, are you suggesting that map edges be treated like the orange fields in the prior outdoor missions? Those were the entry points, but issued a warning if you moved too close to them once you were inside the mission. They didn't so much start a timer as show a straightforward message that you were leaving. Would that be akin to "You are now exiting Titan City."

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Terlin wrote:
Terlin wrote:

Redlynne, are you suggesting that map edges be treated like the orange fields in the prior outdoor missions? Those were the entry points, but issued a warning if you moved too close to them once you were inside the mission. They didn't so much start a timer as show a straightforward message that you were leaving. Would that be akin to "You are now exiting Titan City."
-
Terlin

I hadn't thought of those, but that would be another analogous situation you could use. I personally dislike the use of the orange field for the purposes of a Map Edge since that's something you really want to use for a "home in on this location" kind of thing like was used as you cite in City of Heroes. So bare minimum, this is something that could be "finessed" after a fashion, in that respect.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Because it achieves the desired goal of providing an incentive to NOT try to go beyond the boundaries of the map.

It "achieves" it with the convoluted metagame mechanic equivalent of a chainsaw where a scalpel would have sufficed and it apparently required you to write a proverbial novel-sized post to try to legitimize it. I wish I had the kind of time you seem to have to fully argue these "angels dancing on the head of a pin" scenarios for a game that's still roughly two years from even going live.

I'm sorry I don't buy the use of a forced logout as a negative reinforcement tool or as a strange way to justify another Day Job. Suffice it to say the Devs of CoT will likely come up with a simple and reasonable way to manage their zone borders despite the fevered musings of either of us.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Okay, still, why not just

Okay, still, why not just have invisible walls that aren't part of the city in any IC way. Just a way to keep players within the bounds of the city?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Okay, still, why not just have invisible walls that aren't part of the city in any IC way. Just a way to keep players within the bounds of the city?

But there has to be a way to get the Devs to waste precious development time connecting a new character body slider to this somehow...

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Okay, still, why not just have invisible walls that aren't part of the city in any IC way. Just a way to keep players within the bounds of the city?

Because that's LAZY and we can do better than that? Maybe? Perhaps?


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Okay, still, why not just have invisible walls that aren't part of the city in any IC way. Just a way to keep players within the bounds of the city?

Because that's LAZY and we can do better than that? Maybe? Perhaps?

o.O Lazy? I'm not saying have blackness on the otherside of the invisible wall. Can have a city scape for you to look at.

Don't need a force field to keep people in or protect the city. That's just, well, lame. :p People didn't like the war walls in CoH and the force fields in Praetoria where the same thing, only not as much of an eyesore.

Being a city scape and not a fantasy setting, that means we're not going to have endless water to swim in, cliffs to fall off of.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Okay, still, why not just have invisible walls that aren't part of the city in any IC way. Just a way to keep players within the bounds of the city?

Because that's LAZY and we can do better than that? Maybe? Perhaps?

o.O Lazy? I'm not saying have blackness on the otherside of the invisible wall. Can have a city scape for you to look at.
Don't need a force field to keep people in or protect the city. That's just, well, lame. :p People didn't like the war walls in CoH and the force fields in Praetoria where the same thing, only not as much of an eyesore.
Being a city scape and not a fantasy setting, that means we're not going to have endless water to swim in, cliffs to fall off of.

I liked the warwalls. I loved how the city would go dark when the rikti would roll into town. *drool*

And I am all up for the other suggestions, log out option excluded because getting logged out for testing the zone limits is an annoyance to me. But that is just my view. And the endless environment option is just so you don't get a nosebleed from running into an invisible wall at supersonic speeds (teasing :P)

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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The city going dark is still

The city going dark is still an option. Don't need war walls for that.

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Another possibility would be

Another possibility would be to play unspoofable teleportation turrets along the border. Sort of a "Berlin Wall" approach. a few meters of open ground and the odd pillbox would suffice. Set the repawn point where you will. Lair, SG Base, Some safe spot in the nearest zone. Hospital, wherever really.
RP wise this is much easier to justify than something like warwalls. A man portable energy weapon with a simple targeting interface.

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With the issue of finding a

With the issue of finding a way to contain characters within the space the game allows, the solutions will generally fit into one of two broad categories: those that are explained by in-game phenomena, and those that aren't. Both forced logouts and invisible walls fall distinctly in the latter to me. I suppose you could argue that a log out represents some decision by the character to stop moving away from the city and turn around, but then that explanation seems no more or less valid to me than in the case of the invisible wall, and in either case it reinforces the divide between player and character.

If a reasonably credible in-game explanation exists then all is well and good, but failing that immersion is a lost cause anyway and I would simply keep the inconvenience to a minimum. Ultimately I suspect the best solution is just to provide players with very little motivation to test the boundaries of the playable space and bound them with as subtle a construct as possible if they decide to test them anyway.

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In the Rogue Isles and

In the Rogue Isles and several parts of the City itself, there were no War Walls, just a smooth, invisible barrier marking the edge of the map. I would sometimes go out there, give my character a little 'lean' into the barrier, and then hit 'auto-run' and let them clear away the darkness while I watched and ate a snack.

I prefer the 'invisible barrier' containment approach to any sort of 'warning, hazardous area'.

Be Well!
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Being logged out to avoid a

Being logged out to avoid a "Death Penalty" seems like cutting off my foot to avoid a stubbed toe. Besides, there is no reason that "Boundary Death" has to be treated the same as "Combat Death" or "Falling From Height Death" as far as the game is concerned. Or be subject to the same penalties, if any. If we are in the One World, One Server scenario that I've heard about, I don't want to get logged out and not be able to log back in.

I think it would be kinda funny to be flying toward the "wide open countryside" visible to the west of the city or the inviting ocean view to the East when a warning displays on your HUD (or a call comes over your comm); "Metahumans are required to register a request with the City before leaving defined City boundaries. Please return to City." Of course, you keep going because what are they gonna do, right?

You get another warning "You are approaching defined boundaries for metahumans. Return immediately. This is your final warning."

Okay, so maybe they're serious after all, but you keep going out of morbid curiosity. "You have been warned. Initiating Phase Transfer." Screen goes dark, then lights up with a 3 second "wormhole" animation. You wake up lying on the ground at about the point where you left the edge of the city. Plus you're dizzy(mez effect 15 seconds) and disoriented (your city map is unavailable for one minute.) Then you get a final message. "Thank you for your cooperation."

Now, I could come up with a lore-driven justification for that if I wanted. But I don't know what other lore the Devs are already cooking so it makes no sense to speculate. But this doesn't require any "walls" or "generators" to be built and laid out around the city. And I'd only have to encounter it once in any given direction to say "Oops. Haha. Okay, that's a no-no." At which point I would stop worrying about "why" and get back to the City. You know, where the actual Game is played?

Seriously, if someone is so bored with the actual content that they'd rather spend their time trying to find holes in the world boundary, there are other things that need fixing. Yeah, I get that a crack in the bucket that allows you to fall forever is a programming flaw. It could just as easily be a solid but invisible cube within the visual limits of the horizon. (and over your head and beneath the "ground".)

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

You get another warning "You are approaching defined boundaries for metahumans. Return immediately. This is your final warning."

- - - - -
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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

Being logged out to avoid a "Death Penalty" seems like cutting off my foot to avoid a stubbed toe. Besides, there is no reason that "Boundary Death" has to be treated the same as "Combat Death" or "Falling From Height Death" as far as the game is concerned. Or be subject to the same penalties, if any. If we are in the One World, One Server scenario that I've heard about, I don't want to get logged out and not be able to log back in.
I think it would be kinda funny to be flying toward the "wide open countryside" visible to the west of the city or the inviting ocean view to the East when a warning displays on your HUD (or a call comes over your comm); "Metahumans are required to register a request with the City before leaving defined City boundaries. Please return to City." Of course, you keep going because what are they gonna do, right?
You get another warning "You are approaching defined boundaries for metahumans. Return immediately. This is your final warning."
Okay, so maybe they're serious after all, but you keep going out of morbid curiosity. "You have been warned. Initiating Phase Transfer." Screen goes dark, then lights up with a 3 second "wormhole" animation. You wake up lying on the ground at about the point where you left the edge of the city. Plus you're dizzy(mez effect 15 seconds) and disoriented (your city map is unavailable for one minute.) Then you get a final message. "Thank you for your cooperation."
Now, I could come up with a lore-driven justification for that if I wanted. But I don't know what other lore the Devs are already cooking so it makes no sense to speculate. But this doesn't require any "walls" or "generators" to be built and laid out around the city. And I'd only have to encounter it once in any given direction to say "Oops. Haha. Okay, that's a no-no." At which point I would stop worrying about "why" and get back to the City. You know, where the actual Game is played?
Seriously, if someone is so bored with the actual content that they'd rather spend their time trying to find holes in the world boundary, there are other things that need fixing. Yeah, I get that a crack in the bucket that allows you to fall forever is a programming flaw. It could just as easily be a solid but invisible cube within the visual limits of the horizon. (and over your head and beneath the "ground".)

Which doesn't work for villains and still traps heroes in as having registered with the city. Not to mention the heroes who are strictly humans.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

I don't want to get logged out and not be able to log back in.

The only reason you wouldn't be able to log back in is because you have lost connection to the game server(s) ... and NOBODY wants or is advocating for that.

THINK ABOUT IT.

I have repeatedly said you'd be able to log back in IMMEDIATELY and without (game) penalty if you got forcibly logged off by trying to go "off the edge" of the map. It would functionally be no different from logging out of your character voluntarily and then realizing "oops, forgot to do something" and then logging right back into them IMMEDIATELY (which I myself did often enough when playing City of Heroes). The demonstrable FACT that I keep sending this information ... and that it keeps NOT BEING RECEIVED (let alone understood) ... is what earns you the use of the Harisen LART gif for Willful >CENSORED<.

Now, if you're quite done with spouting nonsense and misinformation designed to confuse and obscure, rather than clarify and inform ...


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Now, if you're quite done with spouting nonsense and misinformation designed to confuse and obscure, rather than clarify and inform ...

Sheesh, Red. Relax. You win the Golden Sarcasm Award, okay?

You miss my intention. I'm not worried about being kept off as some punitive measure. If we are on a single server, I worry about the server being too busy and I end up in a queue. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened in an MMO.

You haven't sufficiently demonstrated, despite the interminable length of some of your posts, why logging someone out is better than simply repositioning them in a more desirable place than "off the map." Particularly if there doesn't HAVE to be a penalty beyond the time they've wasted.

Now if YOU are quite done being insulting and obtuse, along with trying to dismiss any question someone might ask that suggests that your ideas may not be 100% perfect and immutable, maybe you can address the core concern.

Calling what I posted "nonsense" or accusing me of trying to obfuscate the issue is not accurate, necessary or appreciated. Cuz, gee, Red. You're so smart and cool with your command of HTML tags. Your opinion is the only one that really matters to me.

Maybe, if you looked at this forum as a bunch of people groping in the dark for a reasonable compromise on what we could all live with, then hoping a Divine Dev will speak and give their guidance as to what we might expect, rather than treating everyone who doesn't agree with you like they are a) trying to tear down your perfect jewel of a proposal with malicious intent. or b) too stupid to see the True Wisdom that you've been condescending enough to impart, you wouldn't have to type so much and could save yourself some frustration.

Is that clear and informative enough for you?

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Oh, bugger me.

Oh, bugger me.

My apologies to everyone over that last post. I let that get away from me a bit. :/

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

WarBird wrote:
Being logged out to avoid a "Death Penalty" seems like cutting off my foot to avoid a stubbed toe. Besides, there is no reason that "Boundary Death" has to be treated the same as "Combat Death" or "Falling From Height Death" as far as the game is concerned. Or be subject to the same penalties, if any. If we are in the One World, One Server scenario that I've heard about, I don't want to get logged out and not be able to log back in.
I think it would be kinda funny to be flying toward the "wide open countryside" visible to the west of the city or the inviting ocean view to the East when a warning displays on your HUD (or a call comes over your comm); "Metahumans are required to register a request with the City before leaving defined City boundaries. Please return to City." Of course, you keep going because what are they gonna do, right?
You get another warning "You are approaching defined boundaries for metahumans. Return immediately. This is your final warning."
Okay, so maybe they're serious after all, but you keep going out of morbid curiosity. "You have been warned. Initiating Phase Transfer." Screen goes dark, then lights up with a 3 second "wormhole" animation. You wake up lying on the ground at about the point where you left the edge of the city. Plus you're dizzy(mez effect 15 seconds) and disoriented (your city map is unavailable for one minute.) Then you get a final message. "Thank you for your cooperation."
Now, I could come up with a lore-driven justification for that if I wanted. But I don't know what other lore the Devs are already cooking so it makes no sense to speculate. But this doesn't require any "walls" or "generators" to be built and laid out around the city. And I'd only have to encounter it once in any given direction to say "Oops. Haha. Okay, that's a no-no." At which point I would stop worrying about "why" and get back to the City. You know, where the actual Game is played?
Seriously, if someone is so bored with the actual content that they'd rather spend their time trying to find holes in the world boundary, there are other things that need fixing. Yeah, I get that a crack in the bucket that allows you to fall forever is a programming flaw. It could just as easily be a solid but invisible cube within the visual limits of the horizon. (and over your head and beneath the "ground".)

Which doesn't work for villains and still traps heroes in as having registered with the city. Not to mention the heroes who are strictly humans.

Well, I was thinkin' it was more of a "detection" system. Not so much that you were registered. Some kind of field that scans you and recognizes that you you're "special" somehow. ::shrug:: Just an idea. I suspect we could find a gap in whatever we propose, given that we have can imagine an infinite variety of RP type origins.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

I worry about the server being too busy and I end up in a queue. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened in an MMO.

Now THAT is a completely separate and "other" concern which is quite a legitimate one to have, and if you had framed your response in this way I wouldn't have had any cause to jump on your case (like, AT ALL!).

In response, all I could say is that if there's a Log In Queue happening, it will be caused by factors that have little to do with how Zone Maps are constructed (and bounded) and would be more of a problem of hardware structure and network support ... and that we all agree that having to Queue to Log In is not a desirable behavior when it is caused by bottlenecks due to concurrent log in numbers. So you're right, that would be a tangentially impactful issue ... but also one that I believe Missing Worlds Media would want to "throw resources at" when able to manage in such a way as to reduce its occurrence (and not just because people are trying to fall off the edges of maps).

So ... +1 for being informative and clarifying!

/em thumbs up


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I dunno if it was mentioned

I dunno if it was mentioned since i didn't read over everything but what if going to the edge just took you to the next city or forest or what ever. You go to the edge, loading screen comes on an you're in the next area?

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Gideon Cross wrote:
Gideon Cross wrote:

I dunno if it was mentioned since i didn't read over everything but what if going to the edge just took you to the next city or forest or what ever. You go to the edge, loading screen comes on an you're in the next area?

That's the default assumption for Zones that "connect" to each other somehow ... like the tunnels through the War Walls did between Zones in City of Heroes. And that's FINE ... provided you have another Zone on the other side of the edge to THIS map.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Gideon Cross wrote:
I dunno if it was mentioned since i didn't read over everything but what if going to the edge just took you to the next city or forest or what ever. You go to the edge, loading screen comes on an you're in the next area?

That's the default assumption for Zones that "connect" to each other somehow ... like the tunnels through the War Walls did between Zones in City of Heroes. And that's FINE ... provided you have another Zone on the other side of the edge to THIS map.

And fine too, when you realize the game has limits which makes it so you can only go to the edge of the city limits.

No reason for a "Oh look! We totally made a war wall here to stop you from entering or a force field to block off this way to the next town because you're a meta or what have you."

Some things should just be a given. They can't make an endless world and the only way your character is getting out of the city is through your imagination (a new city/zone at a later date, or an instance mission that says you're outside the city) or maybe supergroup bases/personal hideouts, if your entrance allows you to some how say the base is located somewhere else.

Nothing wrong with an invisible wall that signifies, oh hey, you've reached the map as far as it will go.

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I think the only in-game

I think the only in-game-realistic way to get rid of war walls or invisible barriers or what have you is to make a really large map that represents the entire "world" that the game exists in, and then give it what mathematicians would call "periodic boundary conditions" meaning, essentially "wraparound at the edge" like the classic arcade game Asteriods had. In other words, if you start in New York and keep flying West, you go over the midwest, over California, over the Pacific, over Asia, Europe, the Atlantic and eventually end up in New York again. That said, I don't think CoT will ever have that degree of vastness to it's outdoor zones, so that's not in-game-realistically possible because it's not REAL-WORLD possible to program a world map that large. Frankly, I'm willing to settle for the completely arbitrary invisible barrier, like outdoor instanced maps had in CoH. You get to the edge, you push up against it, you can't go any farther in that direction and neither can anyone else. Done. It's not flavorful, it harshes one's suspension of disbelief, but it's simple, does the job, and doesn't lead to excessive griefing or exploits.

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The map will be cut. there's

The map will be cut. there's no sense in servers tracking data for players wandering into wilderness where there is no map

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The point remains that it's

The point remains that it's hard to find any advantage to logging out over an invisible barrier or a fade-to-black-and-reposition-the-character response.

There's nothing more palatable about it from the standpoint of immersion. They all result in a point you can look beyond but can't go beyond. One potential problem with it is that whatever logout timer you use has to be at least as long as any logout timer the game may otherwise have, such as for logging out while in combat, or you could have players try to take battles (especially PvP battles) to map edges to make a quick exit when needed, which doesn't make much sense to me. You also need enough space to be well-defined around the intended gameplay area that players stay within it even when moving at top speed for the duration of the timer, which can be considerably large if travel powers are similar to CoX's. Either you just default to another boundary mechanic anyway or you lose whatever vagueness to the surrounding area you were trying to maintain for the purpose of further expansion.

If you see some advantage in terms of falling through the geometry for a barrier, that's an issue the game has to deal with anyway. I don't know how many times I wandered round defeat-all missions in CoX until someone noticed feet sticking out of the ceiling or a GM came to locate the enemy that had been knocked through the geometry, but more than I cared to. The game needs a decent mechanic to deal with this problem regardless, and I don't think that forced logouts would be the way to go in general.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I like both the logout idea (including day job! lol) and the repeating scenery idea. It doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all solution. Actual barriers could still be used when appropriate.
One thing I hate is when devs try to illustrate an impassable barrier using regular difficult terrain that doesn't look impassable, but merely challenging. SWTOR did this a lot. If I absolutely am not allowed to go from A to B, put an actual cliff, energy field, etc there that makes your intent obvious. Do not place a jumble of difficult rocky ledges in between A and B that can be traversed by someone with more pigheaded stubbornness than you assumed possible, only to be blocked at the last (and usually not the most difficult) jump by an invisible wall.

So utterly agree with this particularly the 'doesn't need to be one size fits all' solution part. Few things irritate me more than having a very agile, athletic character add things like Superpowers then placing what appears to be a steep but looks entirely climbable slope for even my 50+ year old relative couch potato self only to find I can't even scramble up said slope. Talk about immersion breaking and unrealistic. Personally the more in game realistic barriers you can use the better I'll like it whether they are War Walls, Sonic or other harmful energy barrier (though super powers can make that a bit 'unrealistic' for an individual character or AT) or merely a transition such as between Praetorian zones.

And my own personality means at least one of my characters will be a serious explorer of the game world. I Hovered,, repeat Hovered, on the early much slower i5'ish version of Hover across all the Shard maps till I found myself circling to find the way in (if it existed - I didn't know one way or the other at that time) inside the Storm Palace.

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I liked the idea that wow had

I liked the idea that wow had when I played it that when you where out of map range your health slowly dwindled maybe for city of titans they can have something similar maybe you are teleportd back to safe zone or a drone can zap you and you are transported to safety but with an open world zone for all characters would there even be an area that was not explorable ?

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Dying makes no sense--it's

Dying makes no sense--it's not like there's a vacuum or acid in the air killing you. Logging out is annoying and takes away game flow. I think once you reach an invisible boundary, the screen should fade to black, and a prompt would ask "return to closest district?" Or "stay here?". Either as a quick way to not waste time getting back to civilization or in case you need to be in that area, and you didn't realize you were at the edge. On the other side of the boundary, there should always be decent scenery, like a turn in the road or an expanse of ocean with islands and sea gulls flying. War walls were cool for about 10 minutes, then they were ugly and restrictive, so I wouldn't want anything similar.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think the only in-game-realistic way to get rid of war walls or invisible barriers or what have you is to make a really large map that represents the entire "world" that the game exists in, and then give it what mathematicians would call "periodic boundary conditions" meaning, essentially "wraparound at the edge" like the classic arcade game Asteriods had. In other words, if you start in New York and keep flying West, you go over the midwest, over California, over the Pacific, over Asia, Europe, the Atlantic and eventually end up in New York again. That said, I don't think CoT will ever have that degree of vastness to it's outdoor zones, so that's not in-game-realistically possible because it's not REAL-WORLD possible to program a world map that large. Frankly, I'm willing to settle for the completely arbitrary invisible barrier, like outdoor instanced maps had in CoH. You get to the edge, you push up against it, you can't go any farther in that direction and neither can anyone else. Done. It's not flavorful, it harshes one's suspension of disbelief, but it's simple, does the job, and doesn't lead to excessive griefing or exploits.

I am with you 100%… and why am I thinking about that stupid movie "The Truman Show"?

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I liked the idea that wow had when I played it that when you where out of map range your health slowly dwindled maybe for city of titans they can have something similar maybe you are teleportd back to safe zone or a drone can zap you and you are transported to safety but with an open world zone for all characters would there even be an area that was not explorable ?

I like the WoW method as well, because then there are *some* spots that the timid players won't find because they think "OMG I AM DYING!" when they see their health drop.... go far enough though, and you reach a nice safe island or something like that.

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5 OClock Shadow wrote:
5 OClock Shadow wrote:

War walls were cool for about 10 minutes, then they were ugly and restrictive, so I wouldn't want anything similar.

The war Walls in CoH were an example of "hanging a lantern on it". Instead of just ignoring the zoned structure limitation of the game, they draw attention to it. So, rather than just having an invisible wall at the edge of a zone, they came up with an in story reason to have giant actual walls segmenting the city.

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Yeah, I understand why they

Yeah, I understand why they put them in, and it was a creative alternative. I would have preferred them on the outskirts of the entire city rather than around every zone. Of course the developers didn't have the technology to let us pass freely between zones which would have given a far less feeling of restriction. I look forward to not seeing them in CoT.

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Having one server is going to

Having one server is going to be fun lets hope there is room for everyone or we will all be squished if there is war walls lol

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Speaking of where the

Speaking of where the sidewalk ends...
... I like this pic i saw:

Its a nice place to put a slow tram. Perhaps one of the towns that has the "slow down and smell the coffee" attitudes could have a tram like this? in the green part of the middle of the street? Just seems a nice way for RP'ers to pay to ride the tram and do their RP'ing. ;)

Also, doesnt have to be too big, but a small to tiny sized golf like greens between tress..
ex:

..located in the most leisure town.

And yes, if you were thinking of using this as a battleground for the huge Mole in the "More Men Attack" annual event. :)

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

and why am I thinking about that stupid movie "The Truman Show"?

....must.. not.. murder.
MUST. NOT. MURDER!

I for one actually like the invisible walls, though I'd rather have a more visual way to show why we can't leave a certain area. War Walls were a nice idea, and WoW's stamina bar works for settings where you AREN'T superpowered beings. The thing that really comes to mind are the Guardians from Halo 3. Get too far out in a map and suddenly something tries to one-shot you. Maybe something similar to this, like a Kraken grabbing your character and pulling them to their death, could be implemented

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Death-penalty for standing on

Death-penalty for standing on the edge of the world is overkill. Just have Gandalf show up and say "You shall not pass!"

Or, perhaps the edge is a treadmill and you get a badge for running "Ten leagues beyond the wide world's end."

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Well sure, if you want to do

Well sure, if you want to do it the not-evil way..

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Note: this is not how we're

Note: this is not how we're doing it. It wouldn't make much sense in this setting, anyway.

However, my favorite way to create a wall-less closed setting is to make it a hypersphere. By which I mean this: if you cannot fly, you are going to travel more or less along the surface of the Earth. Travel far enough in any direction in a straight line, and you eventually wind up back where you started. This is because the world is a sphere, obviously.

When you can fly, this becomes harder to achieve, since there are three dimensions in which to move, and you can just leave the surface and go "out." But if it's a hypersphere, you are on the 3D surface of a 4D sphere, and you still wind up back where you started...eventually.

Again, this is not how CoT is being set up. But conceptually, it's my favorite way of having a wall-less closed space.

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Does that mean you have

Does that mean you have decided how this subject will be handled? If so, any chance you can drop us a hint to end the speculation? :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Segev wrote:
Segev wrote:

... conceptually, it's my favorite way of having a wall-less closed space.

Wait, like Pac-Man? :O

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More like Asteroids (because

More like Asteroids (because in asteroids you could leave any edge of the screen and instantly reappear on the opposing edge). I mentioned this in an earlier post, only I called it "periodic boundary conditions" which is a term I borrowed from my math/science background.

The analogy also works if you assume the 2D version of the world is the surface of a donut (or bagel, if you're trying to cut calories, or innertube if you like rural swimming cliches).

But like I said before, I like the transparent wall idea the best.

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