1 - Champions online PvP SUCKS and ruined the game.... every GOOD Duel PvPalyer has the SAME build with a combination of the most overpowered and more buged skills.... force geyser, force cascade, ebon ruin, ascention. convivtion with a little variation with theese powers and the WORST.. almost ALL use acrobatics with versatility and teleportation. impossible to make a good pvplayer with jet boots or other travel powers on champions...
THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM in Champions oline... a NON themed Frankeistein build with same travel power that troll everybody
looking in the foruns for solutions i find amazing ideas:
1- A basic class..... Meele, Ranged, Hybrid ( critical chance for chars like deadpool, and inteligence for characters like iron man or a sorcerer,), and Suport. this way i will see a Hulklike vs Deadpolllike or Wolverinelike vs Cyclopelike in a FAIR fight..
2 - after choose the basic class ( only 4) you can choose powers: damage type, crowd control, block , heal....
after choose the power you choose the ( ANIMATION,FX) of that power, this way you can REAL THEME your characeter ( for exemple you can build a ice meele charater if you want or a ice ranged character) .... this is a amazing solution JayBezz (thank you).
3 -Travel Power ( i really hate to see all GOOD duel PvPlayers on champiobns using ACROBATCS with versatility and teleport)
the solution: only ONE travel power and/or atacks and skilss linked to travel power:
and balanced travel power ( i want to see my jetboots iron man vs a flash runner like on a FAIR fight)
Superspeed punch
Flying dive bomb
Teleport multi-punch/kick
Jump an AOE stomp
Acrobatics/Parkour a jump kick/punch
Tunneling a ground bursting AOE
Grappling flying kick
4 - PVE / PVP servers like swtor.. so if you dont pvp go to a pve server....
5 - 3 kinds of research development tree: you can chosse a primary and a secondary
- science
technology (tech armor,tech weapons)
bioengineering ( mutations,potions),
- mysticism
alchemy ( mystic armor ,mystic weapon)
sorcery ( spells,casts,magic,potions)
- Traning
body
mind
for exemple a batman like char have primay TRANING -body and secondary Science -technology
a Hulk will have 1st Science bioengeenering( mutation) 2st tranig - body...
based in what development and research you choose is the path of your first missions.. exemple you choose Trainig: your first missions will be in a dojo, in place were you fight ninjas, secret societys... if you choose technology you will fight against robot armys .... if you choose bioengenerring you will fight other mutants or a anti mutant faction..but it will be amazing if the enemies are costumizable as well.. ( 9 SLOTS foritens would be amazing...
the research will change your itens animation... you have the same chance to craft a technology or mysticism to upgrade your stats...
PLEASE dont use unlimited devices.. ICE NADES FUCKED the pvp in champions online....
6 - a custumizable balanced themed (costumes and skills) SIDEKICK, but you will gain more experience loot and reputation joining other players, not play solo with sidekick all the time
well this is it, i tryed to solve the problem that i hate the MOST IN ALL freeform mmos.. the best pvplyers has almost the same skills and NO THEME, i want to make THEMED chars, i want to make more than 1 pvp character and or pve character..
I agree with much of your statement.
Devs have stated that any powers choices will be within extreme restrictions of power progressions.
How those progressions look will be based on your class and specialization.
I am personally hoping the devs progression looks like
Ranged Role Tree Number 1:
1) Single Target Blast (Charged). 30 Metres Range. Damage = High (Damage Type Chosen By "Tree"), Energy = Cheap
2) Line of Sight Click, 50 metres Range. Damage = Medium (Damage Chosen By Tree), Energy = Medium, Cooldown = 3 seconds
3) Ranged Chain Maintain, 30 meters Range with 5 metros chain radius, Damage = Medium, Cooldown = 3 seconds
4) PBAoE Toggle Repel, Damage = Low, Duration 10 seconds, Cooldown = 30 seconds
Ranged Role Tree Number 2:
1) Single Target Blast (Charged). 30 Metres Range. Damage = High (Damage Type Chosen By "Tree"), Energy = Cheap
2) Cone AoE Maintain, 30 metres Range. Damage = Medium (Damage Chosen By Tree), Energy = Medium
3) Movement Buff - Player's Movement speed is buffed for X seconds, Character does a "Dash" into the direction of their choice
4) PBAoE Maintain, 10 Meter Radius, Damage = Medium
Basically I want the devs to choose the powers, how they work, how the cool down and targeting works according to both balance and play style but let the player choose the non-essentials (damage type, animation, FX). With this and some kind of enhancement module where players can add knocks, mez, more damage etc (based on the baselines set) will make for extreme diversity without letting balancing become out of hand.
The biggest problem I see to the "framework" setup is that if you want to be a "Weather Controler" or a sorcerer who can shoot fire, ice, and hexes or any of the combinations therein.. the only way to do this convincingly is to allow the player to choose the damage type. This is something I really hope the devs take the time to digest for diversity sake and come up with a solution in their powers framework model.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
A lot of your list has to do with PVP, which I just don't care for at all. I hope it's represented well in the game, because I know many people enjoy it, though.
Your list did remind me, though, that I hope I get a chance to explore PVP areas without needing to, you know, PVP. Even if it's just that I can go into the area as an invisible observer or something, though it would be nice to be able to watch some of the PVP action.
As COH was winding down, I spent a lot of time on the Beta server and could get into the PVP zones without anyone else in there. It was nice to be able to explore these new areas and see part of the game environment I wouldn't normally have seen, just because I hate PVP.
I'm just going to have to say it. Your list is suckie and wrong.
1) Is laughable. CoH had people picking the best 1 on 1 Duelers just as much. They also picked powerset combos that didn't look like they'd go together either.
2) TOR had the same problem with 1 on 1.
3) TOR was great for the class stories, to bad every other mission was the same. To bad they stopped making them at 50 and went the same mission route after you finished your class storylines (I've ran all 8 classes to 50+ levels in TOR)
4) You're stuck on TOR. Companions in TOR was a terrible idea in that it encouraged people to solo even more than people usually solo. Seriously, grab the healer companion and go to town! Or grab the damage/tank companion and heal it while it went to town!
5) I hope CoT follows CoH's lead in realizing if you build for it, you to can take on and defeat AVs!
6 & 7) Already pretty sure we'll have both of those. At least the SG base. So not so worried about that one.
8) Thought that was already planned as well.
9) Though PvP was going to be open world. To early to tell probably.
10) o.O Yes, because people took travel powers, CO PvP was ruined. Pffft. You want a supers mmo, travel powers need to be in it. Flash doesn't stop running and Superman doesn't stop flying just because they're in a one on one fight. Learn to play/Learn to lose gracefully (pick one :) )
11) Iron Man may not use a motorcycle, but my powerarmor hero may not have flight capability in her armor and needs to use that motorcycle! Or maybe her powerarmor can't fly, but it can run/skate along the ground really fast!
12) You have no twelve you skipped right to...
13) This one depends on so many other factors. Like CO, the NPCs know who you are no matter the outfit you're in. CoH had the same issue.
But I would love this idea, so it can stop some RPers from doing what they did in CoH "I'm a hero in the Rogue Isles, but Long Bow attacks me on sight, so the Long Bow are obviously evil." nevermind the game has one thought, "You're tagged as a villain and you're always assumed to be in costume or your identity known (you were in jail after all)" but I'll put all the blame on that one on bad RPers.
I get my butt whooped in pvp all the time. only thing that matters to me is that i'm having fun and airing out my frustrations when I'm stressed. Who wins, who loses, how they win, and how they lose is a moot point. People that treat these games that seriously when it's just a form of entertainment suck out all the fun. I like to enjoy it for what it is.
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
I believe its been said before, but just a reminder. You will never be forced in PVP. So, no being jumped on in the open game world. If you want to be available for it, or prefer PVP, we plan mechanisms for that. Too early to say exactly "how", but its in the mix.
-
Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Hear hear, I think my best toon won about 50/50. The rest somewhere below that and some never won a fight ever. But had some good ones with friendly people that were respectful "good game" come back and try again. LIke one I think of off the top of me head from way back when I first started, some controller named Stone Knome, He beat the breaks off me all the time but it was fun learning how to defeat him. Got him a couple of times but he usually beat me 6-8 times before I beat him once. But he never was insulting never cursed, never bragged, even gave pointers on how to beat and get to flyers. (that is when I learned about powers with -fly) Flying is how he beat me most of the time. It was fun.
Also on villain side came across this guy named Lycan, mostly team with him more than fight him, good people, just played for fun, although he was pretty dang good at pvp. None of that uneeded rude trash talk. He kept it funny and in character. There was some god people some I dont remember the name but remember their face, but then you get ya "other people" geesh do they know how to kill the mood in an entire zone. Acting like thye have no home training and like only they are allowed to have fun in the pvp zone and everyone else should leave or sit there and take their abuse. Some people get confused. They think I'm against pvp. No, I became an avid PVPer and highly pissed that those types basically sunk pvp and is not itching to see it happen again because a few people cant act like human beings with some sense and end up driving people off. More they drive off, that means less people to fight, less people to fight and have a good time means deader the zone gets and more bored people get and start leaving, more people start leaving more those "other people" think they are right for abusing people until they simply quit the game and more they believe in "Well take my immature abuse because I'm a total lonely basement dweller that needs a hug or leave the zone so we can blame PVEers for ruining pvp.
Pretty much the same for me, except I don't do it to release frustrations. I do it to button smash. :p
Ok being a fan of fighting games this put you higher on my cool list. Who doesn't love button smashing? lol
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
Only time I recalled PvPing was with a bunch of SG mates for some form of badge or accolade for the SG. I used my Dark/Dark/Soul Defender. Got killed alot, but made a good showing of myself, given that I don't like to PvP.
Beyond that, I disagree with a lot of this list. I like Freeform in CO since I like customizing so much. Yes to free travel powers, having Flight from the get go is a real boon.
So, where do DCUO and CO fail?
With CO, I think the Alert System is a bit of a fail. I like it, but it feels like signing up for a poor man's task force. I would rather spend ten minutes recruiting for a Sister Psyche then just jump into a mission with people I haven't even said hi to. At least, with CO, you don't need everyone to have a specific role much like CoH (Although a Tank is always handy)
DCUO... Oh gods, where do I start...
DCUO is a good game but the Character Creator is horrid... Truly, truly horrid.
You get nine (formally three) pre-made body types. No sliders, no adjusting, no tweaking. Just three varieties of really short, three varieties of normal size and three varieties of large for each gender.
Then you get to the Morality, which is Fine, mentor, which is fine, Weapons which is damned good and varied, something they did right...
Then the power sets... There is no physical set in the game.
None.
Wanna make a Super Strength character? Can't. S/he's got be on fire, be coated in ice or covered in rocks to tank.
Oh, all the power sets are well made... But the most obvious set has been constantly overlooked.
Then the costume options... Egads.
Compared to CoH there are limited options. And no, not 'compared to CoH before the end' I mean 'compared to CoH at the start.' Oh, they all look good, but there is much, much less variety. In addition there are no tails or horns options that I can find. The bulk of the costume options in DCUO needs to be unlocked and by that I mean for each character. And I don't mean the higher end suits or costumes like, say, the Vanguard or Roman costumes in CoH, I mean obvious costumes. Some of which (Like say, cowboy costume parts) need to be bought. While both CoH and CO have purchasable Western theme sets, you could still make a Cowboy/girl without them. (In fact I had a DP/Dev Blaster who, once that costume set was made, only took the belt from it.) Also the Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman ect Logos... aren't unlockable costume options, as far as I can tell. Which is kinda weird, since a lot of people would like that. This includes the Green Lantern/Sinestro Corps logs. In a game where your character might have the power set of those groups.
Well then time to color your gear... Oh yeah, wait a minute.
You know how in CoH you could choose two colors per costume piece?
You know how in CO it's up to four per piece?
DCUO has three colors total. Not for each piece, the entire costume.
I. Am. Not. Joking.
Wanna make a red-white-and-blue Captain America themed character, but think a black belt with a gold buckle is the add on needed? Not happening.
Maybe you want White, yellow, red and black? Nope.
Three colors total.
Again, what the heck?
Well, at least you can swap unlocked costume pieces and change colors on the fly... except you know all the pieces in the creator you didn't pick?
Well if you want to use them... you need to unlock them. Yeah... No tailors.
Also I've heard that melee characters are under performing in DCUO. Just adding that in.
If you recall that TV show, Lois And Clark, they talk about how fans were involved in the show:
http://youtu.be/zV49qh8oEl0?t=3m40s
Sometimes, it's all you've got.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
and other thing:
almost ALL enemies on champions are made on their character creation tool....
i want to see beasts, dragons , robots, sentinels., tanks , helicopters as enemies .. a variety of enemies , look at wildstar enemies and you will know what i mean
better weapons don't mean better advantages. I wish people would learn this. You can have your great awesomesauce sword of epic pwning and I'll still take you out with my regular weapon if you don't know what you are doing. I've done it in the past. It all depends on the player and their skills.
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
Problem with saying fair and balanced PvP, is people with no resistance to fire damage, expect to resist it just as much as that smashing damage that they loaded up on resistance.
If Player A deals damage that Player B is weak too and Player A is highly resistant to the damage Player B deals, then Player A should beat Player B pretty soundly. :p Sadly, Player B then tends to complain that Player A is to strong and needs nerfed. :p
In my days of medival combat re-enactment (sorta) I have seen many new people pick up the HUGE "sword of looking awesome" and get owned by the vet with a dagger. Skill counts for a lot. I preferred shorter weapons, myself.
Of course, fighting a horde of zombie kids is always entertaining...
On topic: I never really cared for PvP all that much. Mainly because of the attitude of most of the participants involved. I don't particularly need nor care for the winner of the match to gloat by rubbing salt into the wound. Yes, there are poor losers. But, there are more poor winners, in my experience.
So, I tend to avoid PvP most of the time. I wouldn't shed a tear if CoT never added PvP to the game. It's not what I play hero themed games for.
When I read this I remembered this :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826eWW80d5Q
Excellent point!
Spurn all ye kindle.
Shouldn't dragons be more of a one time, huge monster attack? And beasts? that shouldn't happen that much, this is a modern city not D&D.
Fine ... we'll have a Mecha Dragon ... and a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatchaman]Sentai Team of NPCs[/url] show up to fight it.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
These guys? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O425MEHgMzA
Be Well!
Fireheart
Eh ... maybe more like [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKyBsY_43p0&t=713][i]these guys[/i][/url] ... ^^;
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Only a few years ago irl I was ...encouraged... to leave a park in Moscow by a pack of wild dogs. The minions didn't seem to have a problem with me, but I think I aggroed the Lt.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Pack of wild dogs constitutes beasts now? When someone says beasts I imagine minotaur. Cyclops. Gorgons. Griffins.
Those are all Mythical Creatures. Beasts are what you would expect to see in a zoo or a circus.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So, dragons? :-)
I can agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I can't get behind point 11, at all. Why can't an iron man suit give you super speed? Why does it absolutely have to have flight? Why can't it be jumping suit? etc etc.
But also, a lot of reasons those games failed, and well coh, the biggest complaint from people that quit or people I couldn't get to stick with the game, not enough content, too much repeating game play, not enough flexibility with their characters, etc etc. You gotta admit, coh could get pretty repetitive at times. Get a hold of your contact, go in building, and you always beat up all the baddies and have a few very basic mission variation, destroy _____ amount of ______, OR find ____ amount of _____, or defeat _____ and all of their minions. That was pretty much it, task forces were not much better, then you had the big stuff at the end, but the game was quite the grind.
It also took the devs a LONG time to address basic issues, what issue did they FINALLY give detailed tool tips for enhancements and powers so people could finally do the math and know how to optimize? I think it was like, issue 9 maybe 10? Waaaaaaaay too long, but that was par for the course, everything took way to long to get corrected.
Early Iron man comics gave him "rocket skates" on occasion. I recall one occasion where he was pulling a few railway cars behind him using the rocket skates on the tracks.
Once you played any game long enough, if gets repetitive. Grindy, on the other hand is more subjective. My regular group repeated a lot of the missions that involved the Malta. Because they just loved fighting multiple Herc and Zeus class titans and their never-ending-stun buddys, the Operatives.
Well true, but I mean that's true with anything in life. But that doesn't make it less important to make sure that your game is engaging enough to prevent that feeling of repeated gameplay from happening too quickly.
Now a days, not an easy task. To many people say typical mmo missions are the same. They are. The funny part though is when people point to a current MMO say it does it different, when it doesn't. :p
I can't think of any MMO which doesn't have a version of "go to A, kill B, collect C"
Agreed. I'm actually more worried about how the Devs do missions and such than I am about combat. Why? Because CoH had combat down ok. Not great...but ok...so they have something to work with. The whole Contact/cel phone/mission thing was pretty rubbish after the first dozen times through if it took that long. THAT'S the stuff I want improved on.
Different kinds of missions.
Different instances/settings
Good story arcs
TFs tied together by story
Lots of different ways to get and finish missions
And so on...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
"# PvP SUCKS on champions online... "
Many players, in fact I'd say the majority who are long term, don't care about PVP as a primary reason to play. The game needs to balance the PVP needs against those of the PVE crowd that is more interested in creativity and expression. Too many games get too much dev time devoted to trying to satisfy PVP players that are never happy, who then all leave at some point to pursue the next new game. The game needs to focus on keeping players long term to survive; catering to primarily the notoriously fickle PVP crowd who always eventually tire of play and move on is just bad planning for the long haul.
"1 -FREEFORM destroyed the game.. the duel (1x1) best pvpplayers have the same freak built withouth a theme ( ice or fire or power armor... ). the best pvpplayers have the same build with overpowered skills and buged skills combination...the diference of then is gear ... this really sucks..."
It perhaps destroyed the game for PVP players, but on the PVE side most people enjoy the character system and only wish for more content. What you call a "freak" or "frankenstein" may simply be someone's concept that you aren't familiar with. Not every character has to be an elemental-type based toon, many magic based characters naturally have odd mixes of powers and make perfect sense to their owner.
"2- BALANCED CLASSES - i would love to see balanced classes ( take SWTOR as example.. the PvP is amazing)...
i would love to see a BOLT themed guys vs a Power ARmor themed guy or a ICE hero vs a FIRE villain in a FAIR duel in PvP..."
Classes are for DnD ;) Seriously, I know you want PVP, and perhaps an AT system just for that is needed but "FAIR" shouldnt trump creativity in my and many others opinions. Expressing creativity is key to keep players who come to a game for long term investment, and locking them down too tightly to satisfy the PVP players is a recipe for losing many other players who are more likely to stick it out for the long haul.
Let's try to meet half way between PVP and PVE players on this and realize both camps deserve a voice and that PVP isn't the only issue at hand :)
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
Actually... as I've said before, FF kills PvE as well. I can't count how many times I see the same powers in builds that not only top the open missions but stand there using the same ability while shrugging off any amount of damage thrown at them. Simply put, no player should be able to solo level capped Cosmics with ease (of which there are 2) and no GROUP should make even the hardest instanced fights (Therakiel and Shadow D at Elite) a trivial matter that ends within a minute or less. And yes, this actually happens. Both can die before even going into their "Invincible and summoning Adds" phase.
My philosophy is that there should NEVER be true FreeForm save for PnP games. At least there you have a human moderator that can say "Woah. That's broken and everyone here is going to feel useless. Nah uh, you don't get to use that." Or rules that state HOW powerful your character can be.
Now, to keep us all clear..
Should you be able to solo everything (TFs, Raids, etc)? Yes.
Should it be easy to build up a character that can? NO.
Should it take a significant amount of time to make one that can? Yes. Nightmare took about 8 or so months to get the IOs and Incarnate abilities that lead to him being a monster.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
CoH and it's AT system wasn't any better for it. Ever notice how there was a lot of Fire Throwers out there? It wasn't because "Fire Concepts are so common" it was because it was considered the best for damage.
When people asked "What Blast Set should I use to be the best?" the answer was "Fire Blast" and that was an AT system.
People will flock to whatever is considered THE BEST. It can be as trivial as 1% better than all the rest, people will flock to it.
Loved it in TERA *sarcasm* when people would pick one's race purely on a tiny point advantage that really you had to really be looking for it, to the point of tracking 1000's upon thousands of numbers, to find the advantage. :p It's like going between 800 DPS to 801 DPS. :p Gotta have that 1 extra DPS!
Ee-yup. Flavor of the Month club.
Playing a Warrior? Castantics Only need apply.
Playing a Sorcerer? Either be a High Elf for the mana recovery racial or an Elin for the animations.
Playing a Berzerker? Go Amani for the awesome plate armor.
Playing a Lancer? Go Elin for maximum cuteness and attack range reach, or Human for awesome plate armor.
Playing a Mystic? Be a Baraka.
Playing an Archer? Go Castanic for sexy animations and rear attack racial passive.
And on and on and on and on.
And you're right, the difference could be less than +1% (in practice more like +0.1%) and people would swear up and down that it was a Make Or Break factor for whether your character ought to be taken seriously.
Argle bargle, all of it.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Eh, I think people more go for what's easy to do and easy to maintain while still being "TEH UBER BESTEST!"
I'm in Conquer on CO (...like out of 5 other people :P) and believe me when I say Foxi and Nepht have these builds that make you scratch your head. You'd get absolutely ROFLSTOMPed by Foxi's PA girl, maybe ask her for the build.. she'd post and "How the hell does that work?" "Holy balls I have to monitor these things?!" and similar phrases would come to mind upon examination. Exactly the same with mine when I was gold. I don't think ANYONE would enjoy my old builds because they all involved having to actually watch what's going on instead of the "Fire and Forget" that most FoTM builds are.
Same in CoX. Nightmare's build compared to what was always popular.. even a Fire/Kin would have been immensely baffled by the choices. >_> infact, I swear I coulda made him even more OP had I removed a few flavor abilities (Kick and Challenge come to mind.) but it'd have just been adding toggles.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Champions Online fails because Cryptic.
DCUO fails because sidekick.
TSW fails because no telepathy
Everquest Next fails because fantasy (but perhaps adding tech-inspired uniforms will allow me to make a human race char from the future).
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Exactly - some people will always want "the Best". Decrying FF completely on those grounds to me doesn't look at the full picture. Complete FF only is an issue for PVP and those (for some reason) who want to see others have more variety (apart from FOTM builds). Now, for a complete game design I can see not having complete FF if you want to stimulate certain forms of group play, but one could just as easily argue that this in turn hurts those who wish to play entirely solo. Again, there has to be a middle ground since we don't all agree on what constitutes the best mix of mechanics.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
Please don't be so quick to paint everyone who played a particular concept with "Every single player who played fire did so for one reason and one reason only." Crack open a few comic books- fire themed characters are popular both there and mythology, where 'game statistics' doesn't EXIST as a concept at all. So while I'm not discounting the effects of people choosing a power set based on it being the most effective - which I despise- your example is, to put it extremely politely, an overly simplistic over-generalization.
I created quite a few low level fire themed characters, and I can promise you, they were done for concept, NOT to maximize stats in a game that was at every level designed to make any hero feel extremely powerful.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
You're not the only one who didn't choose things based on stats, Ambi. My powerset choices were either based upon a concept or chosen randomly (by actual dice) with the only caveat being no selection of a primary or secondary I had already done before.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Yeah well, FIRE is just one of those instinctual fear inducing things, kind of like drowning, so anyone who can not only manipulate fire but also BECOME FIRE (to the point of being a Living Flame is just a "force" to be reckoned with ... hence its power in comics and mythology. It's an "unnatural" use of an entirely natural, and therefore understandable, phenomenon, thereby making the ordinary ... extraordinary.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Did I say you were?
Look at CO. Notice how there are a lot of dual pistol users over fire users? I say this as someone who made a dual pistol user at day one, when they suck. People flock to the good sets.
And some will say just what you said, I picked it for concept. And yeah, sure, some did, some came up with a concept that happened to use fire or dual pistols.
So, maybe it's best not to protest to much on a comment that wasn't even directed at you personally.
Yup. And in CO, that fire has been replaced with two desert eagles.
Oh yeah!!! Well I no like you hair!!! lol
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
This is an interesting thread topic. Let's keep it useful.
______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I sometimes wonder if the solution to this is to have a compromise- perhaps FF is allowed, but only a sub-set of all possible powers can be used in PVP? What say ye?
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
Ironically in CO I only see a few dual pistols freeforms running around compared to the FoTHM number of builds like fire blasters I seen in COX in PVE. PVP may be different story as I did relatively little PVP in CO but haven't seen many dual pistols and more of other sets. But then again, I only dabbled so in PVP it may be more common.
But hmmm FF allowed but only a sub-set of all possible powers can be used in PVP? Interesting idea. How would this work? Would it be like, a person is freeform but have separate set of powers for PVP?
I would see it as certain "auxiliary" type powers turned off that are prone to abuse or perhaps considered unbalanced (invisibility for instance) during a PVP match or instance. Naturally this might lead to some PVP players having more powers than others in a match. I think just a mask for powers being on/off works more smoothly than a different set of powers per se.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
hmmm. That would make PVP a bit more interesting for sure.
The side affect of course is who decides what power is being abused and what is simply good and needed to compete in the PVP match? Although in many cases even if a power is abused usually the user of said power simply say "if people want to compete then they need to pick up that power too." even if abuse is very clear. AKA it's never the power they are using that are abused, it's everyone else power that beats them that is being abused.
In all seriousness, people are always gonna find something to whine about or a reason to troll hence my disdain for certain gamer geeks who suck out all the fun and enjoyment from other mature gamers. I ain't got time for that. I play games to get away from stress and have a good time. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread. I don't care who Who wins, who loses, how they win, and how they lose is a moot point. I'm here to have fun. Also as I mentioned earlier. better weapons or powers don't mean better advantages. I wish people would learn this. You can have your great awesomesauce sword of epic pwning and I'll still take you out with my regular weapon if you don't know what you are doing. I've done it in the past. It all depends on the player and their skills.
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
Indeed.
If people have fun with freeform let them have freeform.
If people have more fun with out market being involved, let them buy from a vendor for the result they want.
If people have fun without luck being a significant factor let them have a way where luck is not involved.
If people have fun craft, let them craft
If they have fun playing market let them play the market
If people have fun cash buying items, let them cash buy items.
The point of a game is to allow the people that play or wish to play to have fun and enjoyment. Or so I thought.
And shouldn't be this group of players can have fun, but that other group are not allowed to have fun and since they don't enjoy what the other group find fun they will be limited, they will have to jump through crazy hurdles, they will be hindered until they use what the other group finds fun or else be punished.
I agree with Jag40 in all respects.
One thing I really enjoyed when I first started playing COH in 2006, is that you had to EARN things (i.e. travel powers, capes, auras, SG base teleporters). It gave you something to strive for besides just running the missions, or attempting to power level to 50, and acted almost like a right of passage for many newbies (who doesn't remember having to hover across the Hallows to get back to a mission after being teleported to the hospital in Atlas Park?)
Another is the ability to trade from person to person. I remember how awesome it was when someone stopped you along the street and dropped a cool million or valuable enhancement on you just because you were a low level.
Crafting was cool and all........and the Wentworths trading was alright. Neither were really MY thing, but for one of my buddies, he was all over it.
All this stuff kept the game from becoming boring and allowed people to pick and choose what they wanted to get out of the game.
Oh lordy that was horrible. I tried to avoid hovering as much as I could unless I was in danger when I played my angel character. I mean seriously, the hovering was just too slow to use to travel anywhere. lol Saved my butt many times though.
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
Reminds me about the about second day I was in game. I seen this small toon, dressed like a black fairy, using hover. This is the day after hearing all the great things about flight and how good it was. So I'm looking at this fairy toon using hover to get over a wall. I was thinking "People must be on crack if they call that a good travel power. If flight is that slow, count me out." Took forever to get over that wall but all the while I'm sitting there watching them slowly go up and over. Come to find out it wasn't flight but was hover.
And here I was playing with 6-slot Hover (Issues 2-5) and using it as my "travel" Power and with all those slots it was basically on par with unslotted Fly for speed (about 60 mph) except with "stop on a dime" friction control so I didn't go sliding all over the sky. People I demonstrated it for simply couldn't believe it was possible to move like that with such precision [i]at the speeds I was Hovering at[/i].
And then there was the fact that on 8-man Teams I was often in the First 4 to get to any Mission Door ... without use of any of the main/major Travel Powers ... even when navigating around places like Independence Port. I got a LOT of double takes when I told people I was using HOVER to get around and beating them to Mission Doors. As I liked to tell plenty of people ... Superspeed may be faster in a straight line, but Flight moves in [i]straighter lines[/i].
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Hover+swift properly enhanced was awesome in mission even some of my melee went that route. After it became an option I usually kept a jetpack for when a "real travel" was called for. Not that I disliked travel powers, I just always seemed to have something I wanted more.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
That was a bit later in the game though.
I agree that the players need something to strive for. On the other hand...not having at least some form of stuff can be tough on the concept. Have some basic wings, capes and auras at the start but the cool one need a mission to unlock. Oh and I'm spoiled. If I ever again have to Hover anywhere for lack of a true travel power I'll quit on the spot. Great way to NOT feel super...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Most of the builds I IO'ed, dont have any travel powers.
ex:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/qfpp8kL.png[/img]
Jet Pack + Sprint + Swift + Ninja Run! Thats all. ;)
What was later in the game? 6-slot hover died when ED was added. Later you could almost get that effect with a lot of IO slotting, but it wasn't quite there.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Jet Pack started removing the [i]requirement[/i] for travel powers, and Ninja Run sealed the deal. From then on, travel powers were practically optional.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Ok, let's start with the PVP.
Don't quite remember how it worked when COX came out with the pvp zones, heard it was bad. I did play in the PVP zones a couple of years later and I thought it was well balanced, a tank was a tank, a controller was a controller and you definitely would not go up against a tank with out some help. Then they nerfed the pvp they made it where you could tank down tanks quicker than you could a blaster, there was a mass exodus after NC soft did that. That was the beginning of of the fail of COX. The other thing I didn't like and still hate is that the regular pvpers were bullies, I had to turn chat off but I did like the system before the nerfed it. In comparison the other mmos pvp system is annoying and not balanced.....DC and Aion has it where you can be lvl maxed but you can kill a lvl 4 with one shot. I have seen it and expearanced it several times of a level 65 taking out lvl 20s then dance on your corpse. In SWOTR going into a war zone the game chooses your team mates and I have been on a team that was lvl 30 and below while the other team is lvl 40 and above. I would like to see if there is a pvp zone that high lvls can't pick on the lower lvls. I would like to see the characters have the same damage and defense as they would in pve.
Not a fan on gear, I liked how the enhancements and inspirations worked it was more equal, you didn't haft to have certain armor or weapons the be better than someone else.
It was all about the class and powers you chose.
The game should be fun not hectic, it should be easy to use the UI, not complicated( DC). Improve the graphics and the world. Give us a character generator that will make all of us go wow and no one has to the same as their friend or the next guy unless we want to. Keep the pvp balanced and fair, if your a blaster then you should have all the advantages and disadvantages of a blaster in pvp no stat changes when going into a pvp zone.
That is my opinion, probably will catch heck for this
Well, CO certainly fails because it's freeform system really only masks the holy trinity, because EVERY build in the game ends up some combo damage dealer/healer/tank with only some minor statistical differences. While at the same time, the severe limitation of the archtype system completely works against CO's freeform system as much as CO's own freeform system works against it. CO also fails to implement powerful comic-book feeling crowd control. Xaviers mind control abilities weren't instantly disrupted by a tiny feather applied to the afflicted person. Nore did icemans freezing someone instantly get canceled out by another Xmans damaging attack. CO unfortunatley 90% of crowd control either is very brief or meaningless(due to the mob fragility), or it breaks the moment the mobs take any damage.
DCUO however, makes no attempt to hide that it's a typical holy trinity. Healers do nothing but heal, tanks do nothing but hold agro, damage dealers do nothing but damage. It tries to break it, a little, by allowing a player to switch from a powersets shoe-horned role into damage, but then you shoe-horn yourself into doing nothing but damage. It gets more annoying in that it tries to get away from it somewhat by adding a controller class, which has some crowd control that does seem better than CO's...but it's also treated as a battery class. It's really just a holy trinity, there aren't enough buffs/debuffs to mitigate enough damage to completely break the trinity and blow it out of the water.
On to the story of both games, they have some mistakes to, CO especially. CO is very cheesy, and overly campy, as bad as many earlier batman plots in the 1960s, admit it the plot was more comical and funny but always went the same way. CO's plot suffers from worshiping the player character so much as to render them a mary sue. You never earned your popularity like you did in city of heroes, you were flat out GIVEN IT UNCONDITIONALLY FOR NO REASON. The moment you complete the tutorial npc's will run up to you randomly to worship you. Even if you skip the tutorial they will do that the moment you do anything else even if it's very minor. City of heroes the NPC's didn't deliberately run up to you like that unless you saved them from some thugs, at which point they'd just thank you and be on their way. They also only refer to hear-say unless you did some very big things that were only done at the very high levels. It was based on your overall achievement.
DCUO however, while it doesn't do this to much, tends to kind of put you in the background. In that you get over-looked very easily when superman shows up to fight lex, while you go around hitting clickys. While he thanks you, you cannot help but feel you didn't get any spotlight at all. Other times, the game litterally insults you by having you act as Nightwings sidekick, or even ROBINS sidekick. And it leaves you feeling insulted when the game does that to you. City of heroes kept it balanced, at times yes, you were over-shadowed by a more prominent figure, but it was because you were an inexperienced fledgling hero. As you got higher in level and the stakes got higher, you took more of the spotlight over time. Villainside likewise, also kept a nice balance.
As for gameplay, DCUO did far better than CO, but still suffered some problems. I'll start with CO.
As mentioned above, everyone thats a freeform is a self-contained holy trinity one man team, or they are using crowd control and having to solo because they'd suck in teams because crowd control sucks in teams. Or they are an overshoe-horned archtype that litterally depends on other teams if not for some very basic CO facts. It's to casual. It's way, way to casual. In fact only a few bosses will prove to have any challenge and it'll only be to archtypes, and archtypes could easily just grab hotbots from the many recognition points they pickup.
The fact is, henchmen in CO have extremely low damage, far far lower than city of heroes or DCUO. So do villains and even master villains are not very high in damage. Even some legendary/cosmic enemies have extremely low damage. The mobs just have a habit of not really being threatening. In fact if you take regeneration, you can litterally stand and take hits for an hour and not die from henchmen/villains/master villains. Granted if you agroed a huge number of mobs, then you could die, but you have to deliberately do that, the AI is not smart enough to call for reinforcements because it will never realise it cannot possibly kill you. And other passives, if given self-healing, also become especially overpowered because unfortunately, the damage the mobs do is just far, far to low. I'd even say CO is dragons lair, almost, where you walk around, some guys show up you click on them, then hit either 1(maybe, you can make the energy builder stay on by turning it into a toggle), 2, or 3, while occasionally hitting some other number on your keyboard to heal yourself, with zero thinking whatsoever. (in fact, the first instance quest litterally tries to be dragons lair to an extreme, with many interactable clickies that, if your hit(and you cannot avoid taking damage), the door will litterally not open, untill you click on the boss, hit whatever buttons are your attacks to defeat him, then move on).
On to DCUO, mobs are dangerous(yay!), but not always in a good way. The combat system has a rock-paper-scissors, which is good, but at times, some enemies are immune, once again, to some crowd control and some other effects, and excell at stunning you because they can psychically know what moves you do. They tend to have a pattern, and once you figure it out, it's easy to disrupt them, but it still becomes very annoying as it's a case of trial/error somewhat. It's hard to see what the pattern is when your getting disrupted constantly, especially with the pacing. But the pacing can make it feel like every single group has a demonic spider in it, which wouldn't be bad, if it was easier to determine what attack combos you had to deal with. It simply tries to be a fighting game, and honestly if DCUO would break the holy trinity it suffers from, it'd turn into a fighting game with gear determining whether you have enough power to do anything. It'd work, if it wasn't a holy trinity that treats you like a weak sidekick far to much that really needs to share the spotlight.
Edit: I will mention I forgot to mention CO's difficulty system. It does have it, but the damage of the mobs is often so low, that setting the game on elite only makes fights last longer, but not actually harder, and it does even that in a very bad, random way that makes some fights last longer with some mobs getting lucky and dodging an attack so you hve to take 4-5 extra seconds to destroy em. Not very fun.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
WHat games doesn't mask the holy trinity? Even with COX it still was basically Healer/damage dealer/ Tank, even more so than CO. Most blaster sets didn't have heal nor resistance meaning they had to depend on tank or healer to stay alive efficiently in most situations, then you had the healer who didn't do much damage with most of the powers working only on team mates, Then the tanks. Then with controls added to the mix but mostly all the ATs were either part of the holy trinity.
While with freeform, one can actual play the game jus tas effectively without doing the holy trinity but in reality most comic book characters themselves are self contained holy trinity, whether they can heal their injuries do crazy damages and take serious hits and keep on coming.
The AT system in CO is bolo. Looks like it was a rush job or something. And same with control in that game. Didn't get that system. It has controls but they are kind of in the background .In COX though controls were bit too powerful too "I win" button. Ya can spam holds on mobs in COX without any danger all day or be held and caught without break free, might as well call it day. Hopefully with CoT, they don't make control as weak as they are in CO but not too powerful like in COX.
But in COX after IOs came about, the self contained holy trinity thing became very much popular and most toons ended up with the same stats worse than freeform CO. See from tanker to defender to controller to blaster, high defense, regen, some resistance, and high damage. IO really made COX enter that self contained holy trinity worse than what is running around in CO. Because in CO, one can choose different sets and types of gear and stats but in COX, it basically wasa handful of IOS everyone used to get those stats making a lot of builds regardless of their AT, basically slotted the same with the same gear with the same stats that can do the same thing with differing factor being the powers that are chosen.
And yeah CO difficulty system could use a little work. It kind of remind me of the COX first version of difficulty slider. While it worked in 2004-2006 time period, I think it's a bit old fashioned and could be done better.
@LaughingAlex
Its your opinion that it "fails"; there is nothing wrong with player made FF's having elements of "the Trinity"; even toons who don't have inherent healing can get pots for example, this is true for virtually every game (think of all the traditional DnD classes that self heal or heal others).
In terms of style ie comic cheesy, etc, that is just a matter of taste, but I too found it to be too hokey at times, but other times the feel was quite well done in CO but that is a matter of opinion. There is nothing sacrosanct about the "holy trinity" however; why shouldn't we have hybrids, that reflects many comic characters like Wolverine for instance who heals himself and is a DPS toon? As for the AT system that was not the original game, but was put on after as a F2P device, so it's not really relevant to the discussion, but the system was meant to be FF.
I'm not sure why some people want to create a game that limits people's options, why should anyone give a damn whether or not another player is locked to a set of powers outside of PVP play that enforce some definition of "holy trinity"?
I believe what's really at issue is one group for some reason just insists on some arbitrary definition of what is "right" about having classes, as though game design is fixed on this design scheme. It is simply not, and clearly many players agree that stifling creativity in the name of some meta-class design scheme isn't desirable. At the bottom of it I believe some players simply have issues with ambiguity... they just don't like the idea of self-healing (albeit not well) tank for instance, or some other character running around they can't pin down after getting a quick look at their play, or doesn't support them in the role they have decided to opt for. I think there are kind of two camps here, one that likes comics with creative expression in that genre being a defining element, and others who simply want a "game" with a certain structure they are comfortable with.
Honestly, people are never happy about mob strengths; I recall when people complained mobs were too tough in CO, they got dialed back, and most people are happy with it (seriously, no one sits in the chat and complains about them). I agree that difficulty could be tweaked though.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
Oh that explains the AT thing. It was added later.
And yeah I remember when people was up in arms saying the mob in CO too hard, even on the COX forum. Mob strength is a relative damn if they do damned if they don't situation for devs.
Me personally I want the choices that is afforded to comic book heroes. Creativity, options, options that allow creativity, and thus allow me to actually create my own hero. Kind of like how all those comic book heroes came to be. And majority of them don't fit into any sort of AT schematics and majority of them are self sufficient and rarely sit around looking for another hero so they can go beat up a villain or two.
Just a thought about the "Trinity" tangent.
That design seems to be a staple of MMOs and I won't argue that many folks played CoH that way, successfully. The difference was that you did not NEED to play it that way. You could beat anything with 2-3 well played alts. 5+ became a steam roller.The groups I ran with may have given me a different perspective but I seldom saw a heal used much less a h34lz0r. Vengeance/Fallout on the other had I saw all the time. I think its a testament to the original game's design that a teamate's defeat could be a potent weapon rather than a liability.
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I have to agree with you there, Auroran. I see some of the people who are against the idea of FF are saying "OPTIONS! OPTIONS!" everywhere else. :p
For me, the "holy trinity" is "DPS/Tank/Mitigate"
DPS makes sense.. it genuinely does
Tank: Someone tends to take most of the damage, normally because they are *able* to do it. Would my controller be the first one into combat for every fight? Nope. Not unless I had back up OR I had Cinders off cooldown.
Mitigate: This is a nebulous catch all for "buff/debuff/heals".
Now generally speaking in CoX, *because* of the larger maximum team sizes, you could get away with a "pick up whatever you wanted", because once you get 8 players involved, you tended to find that you had an over abundance of mitigation and DPS (Hey, pretty much everyone can do damage, because otherwise soloing would be impossible for some AT/powerset combinations). Or enough DPS/inherant tankage to make debuffing/buffing players, although it would be useful, not actually required.
It also wasn't helped because some powerset combinations in scrappers/tankers were almost as good, if not *better*, at debuffing the enemy as controllers/defenders were.
Which I did find annoying sometimes on my controller (Fire/Emp) in that in teams I tended to just cast my imps and spend more time healing/buffing THEM than doing anything else (because everything else was being kicked into the ground by the time I got there)
Hmmm that's a bit different from the normal definition of trinity. At least how I've understood it. If that was the normal definition I would have less of an issue with the approach.
I would have to dig out the proposed basic class system posted hereabouts but I seem to recall that all would have dps and than a choice between "tank" or self mitigation spec, and "mitigate" of buff/debuff/heal spec.
But then again the way combat mechanics end up working and powerset design can blur even those lines. For all the assumed rigidity of the old game I never found it hard to make a hybrid AT so to speak. You had oddities like regen blaster emps, son/traps trollers that were actually corrs etc. Heck, I had a ma/da scrapper I played as a pbaoe troller, and a grav'storm that was a fairly effective blaster.
Part of the fun of a defined system is finding those outliers imho.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Oh agreed it does seem a bit strange, but its something that seems to fit a bit better with more and more MMO's out there going for more "hybrid" playstyles out there (or making it easier for players to solo). It also just goes to show that although having variety as a form of "mitigation" (I know that this is inaccurate when buffing is included), is nice... it is NOT required necessarily.
Playing CoX helped me come up with this viewpoint, but also doing WoW dungeons where I noticed similarities between how groups were working, particularly when we didn't have a "tank" to tank, so we took an extra healer (or rogue for extra CC). And when healing is a form of mitigation, it just goes to show that CoX had more *variety* in terms of mitigation, and you were not penalised for taking buffers/debuffers instead of a healer.
And I see similar stuff in Eve Online (DPS/Tank/Mitigate), where if you looked at the *base* fleet compositions and you go0 "they will get wiped", but what they are fitted with range boosters, sensor dampers, targeting disrupters etc, and no actual "healing", and still wipe the floor with the enemy ship, just goes to show how varied it *can* be.
I haven't seen this part (everyone can DPS, choice between tank or mitigate as additional), although it wouldn't be that strange. It is in other MMO's out there, where you can flip between your role (and access different abilties according to role) when out of combat
Oh agreed. The sheer number of power set combinations out there made it stunning. There was so much variety, that there were bound to be some sets that just worked (albeit strangely sometimes) at performing other roles on the team (typically CC/debuffing enemy mobs in my experience)
With damage output, there's a few different parameters to play with:
Melee vs Ranged
Spike vs Pressure
Single Target vs AoE (including Cones)
Buff/Debuff gets a bit more complicated, because I would include Mez and Knockback as well as Healing under the heading of Buff/Debuff, but one of the major considerations in the Buff/Debuff arena is applicability ... as in "who gets it":
Self Only
Team Only
Allies Only
Friendlies Only
Friends and Foes
Foes Only
Single Target vs Aoe (including Cones)
City of Heroes produced a somewhat unwieldy structure of Powers in that there was no "switch" available for making Powers designed to Affect Others also be Affect Self on demand. Thus you wound up with the classic case of [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Pool.Medicine.Aid_Other]Aid Other[/url] and [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Pool.Medicine.Aid_Self]Aid Self[/url] needing to be two different Powers occupying two Power Selections and two Power Slots on your Power Trays despite effectively being pretty much the same Power, except that one affected Target Ally and one affected Self Only. It was clunky and it created clutter.
World of Warcraft "sidestepped" this issue by use of a "switch" keybind (ALT if I recall correctly) which would allow Buff abilities to Affect Self so that you could cast Buffs on yourself without needing to deselect your target in order to do so. This resulted in less clutter of the ability trays than could have potentially been possible and effectively streamlined gameplay significantly for character classes with Buffs.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Not to mention, just makes more sense.
Hated how my KIN could Speed Boost everyone, but not herself.
Don't forget the "rope you in" mechanics that SW:TOR has where buffing or healing a character that is flagged for PvP will automatically flag [i]you[/i] for PvP as well, as will catching an opposite-faction PvP-flagged player in an AoE attack on an NPC mob; I play on Harbinger, a PvE server, and have seen high-level players on 'shared' planets -- generally one of the stealth classes (Assassin/Shadow/Operative/Scoundrel) -- move up near a high-value NPC or into a spawn of NPCs in the hope of getting caught in an AoE that will flag the attacker, allowing them to gank the attacker.