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What is PvP to you?

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Von Krieger
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What is PvP?

What is PvP?

*throws glass*

A miserable little pile of secrets!

BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER

HarvesterOfEyes
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Sentry wrote:
If you look at the most popular PvP games in the world; LoL, Starcraft, CoD, Halo etc. They all have something in common. A new player can join and have almost all the same gear as everyone else. If a pro player makes a new account in any of those games, he can still dominate. That's because they're all skill and knowledge based, and while their gear can have small factors, they all remain as small factors.
The best years of CoH PvP was when all that was required was SOs (and not even max level). The worst year of CoH was the end. To be viable it was required to have a 5 billion build, every accolade, every t3 incarnate and even Enh boosters on some things.
Let's say you're a PvEr who decides he wants to try PvP. Would it be better to take your character in and be of a equal or similar level of power to everyone else? Or would you prefer knowing you have BOTH disadvantages of less experience + less gear?
TL;DR Don't introduce PvP gear, that makes it imbalanced even more for the beginners
I'm all for having...incentive in PvP. I don't think +power or +advantages should be that. I'd suggest costume pieces, sort of like Team Fortress 2 hats, but, then you're locking PvE costume pieces behind PvP, and that's a bad idea. It would be a good idea if the game was purely PvP. I don't have a good suggestion for incentive, I'm sure the dev team will think of something.

Thank you for that post, Sentry. (Better late than never and all that rot, eh?)
I actually picked up on this trend by chance, as much as anything, from SWTOR of all places. That PvP gear tends to present a high barrier to entry was one of the main arguments against having PvP gear. Of course, there are those who do like PvP gear and want it (or at least some form of incentive, as Sentry says) so it would be ideal if both could be represented eventually.
I'd be much more inclined to dip a toe into PvP if I knew that I'd most likely lose because I suck at PvP. It's considerably less temping if I know I'd lose not only because I'm not good at PvP, but also because the other guy is so tricked out that my character represents all the challenge of a wet noodle. (The "it only takes you a week to get Silver Sparkly Champion PvP gear now" line didn't do it for me in SWTOR, either.)

This is a key point. The reason I say RPG-style games are largely incompatible with PvP is that the key to RPG-style games is the principle of Progressive Reward for Effort.

Once a system applies Progressive Reward for Effort to PvP, it doesn't take long before the barrier to entry is too high for anyone except a true PvP enthusiast. I view PvP-grinder style games as the natural evolution of PvP once that principle is applied. Anything you can grind for isn't about skill.

What eventually became of PvP play in CoX is really no different from what happened to it in every other MMORPG. They all have their dedicated enthusiasts, but those are a tiny minority of the player population. Inevitably the barriers to entry become so high it is rare anyone wants to cross them.

Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.

Wavilines
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Von Krieger wrote:
Von Krieger wrote:

What is PvP?
*throws glass*
A miserable little pile of secrets!

I don't think I've ever laughed harder at this reference. Good show!

Ap0calypt1c
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On City of Heroes, I enjoyed

On City of Heroes, I enjoyed PvP on various chars in both zones and arena throughout the years, and I would say it had many great aspects, but with a few negative consequences, with some balancing, would've made PvP very popular and fun, catering to the players looking for a 'twitch' or competitive element to this game, which is another reliable form of 'endgame content.' I mostly played my Broadsword / Invuln Scrapper Soul's Blade on Freedom Server, and I usually played all the zones plus arena duels, and he was a solid tank, abusing Parry and 2 strong heals, and rocking like 8 toggles to destroy his opponents. and I also enjoyed playing my Sonic / Elec Blaster, and whatnot, but it was also abusing one core mechanic CoH forgot to balance...

Movement.

In CoH, both arena and open zones, travel powers allowed heroes to run, jump, etc out of combat, unless they had a -Travel effect on them, which encouraged use of Jousting, and an almost mandatory combination of SS/SJ for fighting in open zones competitively. But this was a pretty lacking and unfair way of PvP, relying more so on quick Hit n Run tactic rather than a true "Hero verus Villain clash to the death"

I think the best way to balance PvP in this game from what I've seen of Update 14/post-Launch assuming we have reached all the goals, is to keep City of Heroes style of PvP, with few Open zones, and an Arena system, but while in PvP mode, several tweaks should be balanced, assuming you have an near-identical system of CoH's PvP:

True travel powers are suppressed when in combat in the sense that when you have them toggled on, you are halting or severely reducing your recovery rate for its toggle instead of it using endurance, preventing people from running it all the time and using many powers at once. Another tweak that could be also added or replacing the 1st shoud be that prior to using any travel power, a 1-3 second 'charge up' is required, where you cannot use any other power, which could cancel it. If you are hit with a knockback,knockdown, -Jump, etc, during this period, you lose your jump, and are affected by said effects if you don't have the proper resistances. Also, they won't be toggles you can just turn on and off anytime, they would come with a hard 3-5 second recharge that's not buffable, to prevent people quickly switching it on/off.

The main advantage of this tweak would encourage people to have more true fights with both sides using all their powers and maintaining their ground in a battle for survival and encouraging the use of mezzes, debuffs, phases, etc would be encouraged. This would enable a much more tactical PvP sense while maintaining the twitch elements. This would also make it a lot more easier for melee characters to fight in zones/open arena maps, as well as forcing ranged characters to stay near the scene of the battle in order to continuously lay damage, while using their lower-travel power to maintain tactical distance. I drew this element from the playstyle of DOTA 2/League of Legends which I think has some similarities to CoH, and currently, both those games are EXTREMELY popular due to they're extreme competitive game play styles and ease of tactics.

I think what CoT should aim for in PvP, whenever it does come out, is that since they are aiming for a minimum 4 primaries/2-4 secondaries, is to try and balance the damage ratio/secondary effects of those powers to maintain balance, then make the travel powers so that they encourage teams staying together in zones, traveling and fighting as a group as how I suggested. This would enable true teamfights, in which team players could plan out combo's/strategies to do while in PvP in relation to their powers and their effects. Altogether,what I visualize from an ideal PvP match between 2 teams of 2 would be them using strategies like using a stun, following up with a placed endurance drain attack, to attacking your enemy with a -Slow or Hold so you can charge to run away, to even having a Vengeance style power, encouraging a VERY occasional use of Leeroy Jenkins style tactic, enraging the teammates.

Another feature CoH's PvP was lacking was it's objective based arena missions which would've been very easy for them to code in and could've been popular. With CoH's mission creator and such, there is no reason to suggest it couldn't have spawned an instance in an office buildings with 1-4 major hallways filled with turrets, respawning enemies, traps, etc. On either side of those hallways would spawn both Heroes and Villains in teams of whatever size, with the maps pre-selected. This is once again, another trait I got from DOTA, but I think this sort of easy and destructive instance PvP mayhem would be extremely enjoyable, and can be used in various styles of maps. Imagine a scenario like this, using CoH terms:

Heroes + Longbow ambush a sci-fi base owned by a company similar to Crey who are trying to backup/smuggle illegal/valuable data out of the base, and they offered Villains a lotta money to help protect the base. So the Heroes have to pass through several hallways filled with hard to kill immobile turrets to get to the core data bank, which is only indestructible when all turrets/nodes/protective devices are destroyed a la DOTA.

This style of objective based PvP instances could be Tower defense on both sides, or a a one side assault, one defend with a time limit, amongst others, and the best thing is that it can be used in almost any variety of missions, from Orangbega-style maps destroying demon portals to a a jail-style map breaking out a high-ranking NPC, amongst others!

I got plenty other ideas on how I'd like to see PvP on this game, but I'm happy to wait and see how far they have gotten in terms of development and how the initial idea of PvP is progressing.

Gauntlet
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Something that was picking up

Something that was picking up at the end of CoH was different rules for PVP and non-PVP. Many of the last batch of purple sets had 2 sets of rules on them that was different depending on whether you were playing PVP or PVE. This is think should be expanded further on. One of the larger problems i ran into in CoH/V and many other games is the powers are balanced around PVP compainers blowing up the forums with "blah blah is soooo overpowered. Nerf it to the ground!" Followed by page after page of flaming and begging and bullying the Devs into making changes that while may make THAT power better in PVP, KILLS that power for PVE.

I remind you all of the Energy Melee: Energy Transfer power change. There was a PVP Arena war and at the end of it the 3 top competitors all had Energy Melee. Cryptic congratulated the winners then by the next patch changed Energy Transfer's animation time from 1 second to almost 3 seconds. This destroyed Energy Melee to the PVP community AND the PVE community also. It didn't do much to push signups for their next tournament either. And it wasnt the first or last set to be rewritten due to PVP whining, Regeners you feel my pain Instant Healing from toggle to click.

All im saying is to keep yourself in the good graces of PVE'ers AND PVP'ers just addin PVP/PVE rule differences, if possible.

Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC

jag40
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Gauntlet wrote:
Gauntlet wrote:

Something that was picking up at the end of CoH was different rules for PVP and non-PVP. Many of the last batch of purple sets had 2 sets of rules on them that was different depending on whether you were playing PVP or PVE. This is think should be expanded further on. One of the larger problems i ran into in CoH/V and many other games is the powers are balanced around PVP compainers blowing up the forums with "blah blah is soooo overpowered. Nerf it to the ground!" Followed by page after page of flaming and begging and bullying the Devs into making changes that while may make THAT power better in PVP, KILLS that power for PVE.
I remind you all of the Energy Melee: Energy Transfer power change. There was a PVP Arena war and at the end of it the 3 top competitors all had Energy Melee. Cryptic congratulated the winners then by the next patch changed Energy Transfer's animation time from 1 second to almost 3 seconds. This destroyed Energy Melee to the PVP community AND the PVE community also. It didn't do much to push signups for their next tournament either. And it wasnt the first or last set to be rewritten due to PVP whining, Regeners you feel my pain Instant Healing from toggle to click.
All im saying is to keep yourself in the good graces of PVE'ers AND PVP'ers just addin PVP/PVE rule differences, if possible.

Yeah, most of the non-pvers were the larger part of the population. Of ocurse devs probably will listen to the majority. If pvpers didn't focus so much energy into pissing folks off and running them out of the pvp zone there would have been more pvpers. ANd I nthe end it end up affecting both pvp and pve.

Then PVPers overall didn't help their case because any thing negative said about pvp was usually replied with, "well don't like it, don't pvp!" and other insults. They should of simply stated their case why powers should not be nerfed instead of attacking people on the forum, in the pvp zones, trying to run people off. Because I nthe end they succeeded and thus added to the seemingly logical thing, of "Hmm, many people are saying such and ushc power is over powered maybe it do need a nerf." There was not much in logical argument of against the nerf. Just simple name calling and calling non-pvpers whiners and saying they shouldn't be in pvp zones. Over all PVPers killed pvp.

Should energy transfer been nerfed? Hell no. But what did they expect? Devs listen to a few ranting and raving rude group that think anyone outside pvp is whiners and potentially lose a great amount of their pve crown or listen to the crowd that is the meat and bones of their income?

If pvp put as much effort into telling people to leave and saying who belongs n pvp zone and who don't into trying to sell the perks of pvp and how much fun it can actually be, then it would be popular feature, it would get more attention and those "whiners" wont have as much power to affect it. But if pvpers insist on shooting themselves in the foot with the "Take my insults or leave, ya freaking carebear" attitude then who can stop that besides pvpers?

Felderburg
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For me, without a dynamic and

For me, without a dynamic and enjoyable end game (i.e. not a repetitive grind towards more gear or currency or whatever) PvP becomes that end game. It's much more challenging and enjoyable than fighting the same old same old PvE bad guys over and over again, or zooming through the "hardest" group fight in the game with the exact same strategy hundreds of times. CoH avoided that end game trap for a while, with its replayability and easy alting, but PvP was still fun and more of a challenge than PvE.

The key thing, for me, is separating the power mechanics for the two realms. In Star Trek Online, PvE and PvP powers behave the same way. Since STO is F2P, there are a great many items in the cash shop, that have great mechanics for PvE, but what is fun for stomping hordes of aliens in PvE with becomes pay-to-win or broken in PvP. So the PvPers complain about new items destroying any semblance of strategy or fun in PvP, and get an item "nerfed". Then the PvEers complain about the PvPers, because now the item can't be used to utterly smash NPCs anymore, building an artificial divide between the two groups of players. I emphasize "artificial" because there's really no reason that PvP and PvE can't exist perfectly well together. It can be a hard situation in an MMO, but games like Mass Effect or Halo, or Age of Empires 2 all have PvE and PvP that exist together in harmony.

Another very important aspect of PvP is the analysis of game mechanics. Because what powers do and how they do it is essential to a greater understanding of PvP and getting better at it, in my experience the people that understand an MMO's mechanics the best tend to be PvPers. And having players that truly understand game mechanics is useful to the developers, since those players will be testing things and finding out what's wrong with a particular powers mechanics, and letting the devs know.

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jag40
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Felderburg wrote:
Felderburg wrote:

For me, without a dynamic and enjoyable end game (i.e. not a repetitive grind towards more gear or currency or whatever) PvP becomes that end game. It's much more challenging and enjoyable than fighting the same old same old PvE bad guys over and over again, or zooming through the "hardest" group fight in the game with the exact same strategy hundreds of times. CoH avoided that end game trap for a while, with its replayability and easy alting, but PvP was still fun and more of a challenge than PvE.
The key thing, for me, is separating the power mechanics for the two realms. In Star Trek Online, PvE and PvP powers behave the same way. Since STO is F2P, there are a great many items in the cash shop, that have great mechanics for PvE, but what is fun for stomping hordes of aliens in PvE with becomes pay-to-win or broken in PvP. So the PvPers complain about new items destroying any semblance of strategy or fun in PvP, and get an item "nerfed". Then the PvEers complain about the PvPers, because now the item can't be used to utterly smash NPCs anymore, building an artificial divide between the two groups of players. I emphasize "artificial" because there's really no reason that PvP and PvE can't exist perfectly well together. It can be a hard situation in an MMO, but games like Mass Effect or Halo, or Age of Empires 2 all have PvE and PvP that exist together in harmony.
Another very important aspect of PvP is the analysis of game mechanics. Because what powers do and how they do it is essential to a greater understanding of PvP and getting better at it, in my experience the people that understand an MMO's mechanics the best tend to be PvPers. And having players that truly understand game mechanics is useful to the developers, since those players will be testing things and finding out what's wrong with a particular powers mechanics, and letting the devs know.

Indeed.

kenpotiger30
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Ive played MMOs since 2005,

Ive played MMOs since 2005, yes CoH was my first. However, it wasnt my first pvp experience. PVP is usually built around the 1v1 premise with 1 class having a distinct advantage over another. Ive played one and only one game that I actually really enjoyed fighting members of the opposing faction. I know im gonna get flamed hard for this but....Aion....Yes I know anything NCSuck said here will probably get my reply deleted but in Aion the pvp actually mattered in the game. The class abilities were built around group play instead of 1v1 because normally people dont pvp by themselves ALL the time and you surely dont go after raid bosses solo. Most of the time people pvp with other people and tuning the abilities (powers) around group play kept a closer balance between both PVE and PVP. Also pve dipped into pvp as will with certain instances requiring your faction to hold a certain fort(node) or number of forts(nodes) to gain access. As well as their point system being different from anything else ive played. You kill a player you earn PVP points if they kill you, you lose points and they gain. Now, this lead to some really intense world PVP and created some serious hate of the opposing faction but it was fun and generally people left lowbies and pve'ers alone due to their low point reward.

PVP isnt about ganking a bunch of lowbies (although you will always have A holes), its about competition. There is nothing more exciting than attacking a "Bad Guy" that can actually think and fight back by adapting to your attacks and countering them, this is something you dont get from any AI driven NPC. The NPC wont adapt to your advances, it has a scripted attack "rotation" and it sticks to that. I loved CoX and I am very excited about CoT but I do not think instance only pvp is going to grab people, its boring, been done and there really isnt anything that you can do to make it fresh and new. World PVP is a different story all together, every encounter is different than the last.

So my hope is that this dev team understands this and has both. Have world PVP zones on (dare i say it) PVP Servers, where pvpers arent bombarded with the PVE'er freaking out because they got attacked in a PVP zone and all they wanted was to complete the quest/mission. Why not have PVE Servers that the "PVP Zones" werent contested and if they choose to fight there allow them to flag themselves for PVP, hell give them the option in a pop up upon entrance to the zone.

As far as power balancing, i think tuning a power for 1v1 pvp combat is the wrong way to go. It creates a super rubberband effect of the nerfbat and causes severe community upheavel. Balancing powers for group play with slightly different effects in pve and pvp I think is a better way to go. The IOs with the Dual stats were a great idea and I too think that should be explored further, having a PVP rule on PVE gear only when in a PVP Zone is something I would like to see tested with a release of the findings.

But this is just my two cents.

jag40
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kenpotiger30 wrote:
kenpotiger30 wrote:

Ive played MMOs since 2005, yes CoH was my first. However, it wasnt my first pvp experience. PVP is usually built around the 1v1 premise with 1 class having a distinct advantage over another. Ive played one and only one game that I actually really enjoyed fighting members of the opposing faction. I know im gonna get flamed hard for this but....Aion....Yes I know anything NCSuck said here will probably get my reply deleted but in Aion the pvp actually mattered in the game. The class abilities were built around group play instead of 1v1 because normally people dont pvp by themselves ALL the time and you surely dont go after raid bosses solo. Most of the time people pvp with other people and tuning the abilities (powers) around group play kept a closer balance between both PVE and PVP. Also pve dipped into pvp as will with certain instances requiring your faction to hold a certain fort(node) or number of forts(nodes) to gain access. As well as their point system being different from anything else ive played. You kill a player you earn PVP points if they kill you, you lose points and they gain. Now, this lead to some really intense world PVP and created some serious hate of the opposing faction but it was fun and generally people left lowbies and pve'ers alone due to their low point reward.
PVP isnt about ganking a bunch of lowbies (although you will always have A holes), its about competition. There is nothing more exciting than attacking a "Bad Guy" that can actually think and fight back by adapting to your attacks and countering them, this is something you dont get from any AI driven NPC. The NPC wont adapt to your advances, it has a scripted attack "rotation" and it sticks to that. I loved CoX and I am very excited about CoT but I do not think instance only pvp is going to grab people, its boring, been done and there really isnt anything that you can do to make it fresh and new. World PVP is a different story all together, every encounter is different than the last.
.

Yeah Aion aint bad.

And yeah that is what PVP to me as you described. Somewhere along the way it got twisted that PVP equals being a butthole just to be a butthole and that equals pvp and those that don't fall into those lines should stay out of PVP.

While it's exciting to fight a "smarter" foe, many rather fight AI than to fight a "smarter foe" that cant help themselves in making the experience a miserable experience and insulting them every other second. Which then brings up the question are some players actually "smarter" than the AI? The AI have set patterns, and not very bright but even the AI is not dumb enough to sabotage the game feature for the lulz. I think any person with some sense would realize that if they make PVP even some what enjoyable, and respect each other even in competition, people are more than likely to want to come back and bring their friends along. That means, *gasp* more people to fight and bigger epic battles. Which means more players in PVP which then leads to more development and easier to convince the budget holders that pvp is worth investing resources into. Which then make PVP even better. But when those buttholes decay the pvp world by trying to drive everyone off, I cant help to wonder if they are actually PVPers or PVErs purposely trying to destroy PVP because deep down they don't like it. I would think if they truly enjoyed PVP they would do everything in their power to ensure it's success which requires PLAYERS returning instead of trying to run everyone and turn everyone off from PVP with their very uncouth and apish behavior.

Of course right now, I don't think due to the damage caused by some of those few "pvpers", pvp probably should be separate from pve for now. Unfortunately lot of people got very bad taste in mouth from those that still think *pvp=be as much a butthole as one possibly can until no one want to do PVP. Then when it goes down, go to the forum and blame pve for the downfall and it's due to pve whining that pvp is in such a sorry state.*

Sometimes quarantine is the only way to prevent the disease from spreading until the doctor actually decides to do something about it to prevent it from forming and getting out of control in the first place.

Sometimes wished there was a pvp practice zone. A zone where people can practice and get used to pvp mechanics instead of having to go into zone only to get insulted griefed and told to "learn to pvp" over and over with the GMs sitting around on their thumbs or looking the other way.

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Ideally, PvP would be http:/

Ideally, PvP would be http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-kind-pvp-games-do-you-want-see for me. IOW, something more than just duels and team deathmatch and zone PVP.

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Before i13 pvp was I think

Before i13 pvp was I think (atleast team pvp) as good as it got (could have been better, but it was great mechanic wise). Team pvp was based on the idea you make your strip down, sup up builds (if your a dmg dealer, you try maximizing hp and dmg, support maximize hp, recharge and range, etc) and everyone had a role and needed to coordinate in order to be sucessful (emps needs to fort the dmg, have the cms going, heal, kin needs to keep up with the sb/id while harassing the enemies kin, sonics need to keep everyone buffed (with both shield and clarity) while caging the opponents emps and/or using the defuff on the target, all dmg dealers need to time at the exact same time to spike in order to get a clean kill before a out of sequence debuff or attack leads on that target will get spike in return having the target being spike using counter measures like hibernate or phasewalk. Keep in mind all these moving parts happen every moment within the 10 minute match and a slip up of a team member not responding to their role will either win or loose a match.

I think the biggest irony after i13 pvp was the devs wanted more diversity in pvp. Instead it concentrated the FoTMs to even smaller collection of builds (mind/fire doms already powerful before i13 was just insane after) Before i13 you needed to select assortment of inspirations that will last you for the match whether it is an emergency increase res/def with a combo of life and possibly a bf, post i13 pvp you really only needed reds and greens to fight.

If anything I hope CoT pvp is like post i13 pvp, Sure people will say their character concepts are not competitive in pvp, but really should it be? There will always be a build or a team build that will be the cookie cutter and if you try to make it where everyone can win, you end up getting a pvp system like post i13 (the stuff that actually made pvp attractable and dynamic for CoH: the movement nerfed, mez to know how much mag is on you and how to counter before being mezed simplified, healers doing their jobs diminishing returns, etc)

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As long "balancing" for PVP

As long "balancing" for PVP is for PVP only and doesn't effect PVE, I could care less if there is PVP in the game or not. I prefer not, but I know others like it, and as long as I don't have to do it unless I decide to, that's fine then. Just don't mess with the PVE game because of it.

jag40
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Postal wrote:
Postal wrote:

As long "balancing" for PVP is for PVP only and doesn't effect PVE, I could care less if there is PVP in the game or not. I prefer not, but I know others like it, and as long as I don't have to do it unless I decide to, that's fine then. Just don't mess with the PVE game because of it.

I think that also caused a lot of tension between PVE and PVP players. When in PVE found their powers being nerfed because it's to balance PVP. And then the PVE find their character weaker because of a mechanic that they never play. And also it ticks off some PVP players not because the power is weaker in PVP but because when they go to PVE to gain PVP items, they cant do it as effectively and thus it messes with their PVP play especially in a game where PVE and PVP are supposedly separate.

Pre I13 of course that happened a lot because the stats and the way the powers worked was not much different than the way they worked in PVP. Post I13 it was less problem as the PVP version of the power or how it worked in pvp could be nerfed and leave the PVE version alone. But post I13 had it's own issues and complaints.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

What is PvP to you?

A battle between Ego Trips.

I am scissors.
Paper is fine.
Nerf rock!


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What if PvE and PvP "felt"

What if PvE and PvP "felt" similar due to smart AI programming? Ranged Players who "run and gun" and are hard to tack down? The same mechanics should come into play with the PvE enemies we face. (Of course with lower HP and less damage.. PvE challenge level should never feel like a PvP match).

Give enemies access to the same mechanics the players use. Let them heal each other. Let them stealth. Let them kite. Let them take player targeting (Taunt). Let them Mez. - ON A REGULAR BASIS. Give them not just "Henchman" "Villain" "Super-villain" levels.. but also select their AI based on their role. And as always Boss Fights should have special mechanics that make them "BOSSY"

I tend to laugh at most AI systems where the homogenized bad guys just shoot things at you while standing still. Why don't you just stay out of range.. you have a gun and I have a knife. You have an knife and I have a gun..? Ninja please.. You'd better close that gap before you die.

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If you balance it right,

If you balance it right, there's no reason PvP couldn't be any different than PvE other than in open world PvP, those who are almost dead in PvP tend to run away, rather than finish. :p

But for that balance, I think it becomes a matter of one's defenses. But such balancing would either lead to players ignoring content "No. I skip those missions to avoid those enemies because they're fire armor and resist my fire attacks to much so it takes me forever" or "I only fight enemies that have zero resistance to my fire attacks."

And while it could lead to no one most powerful defense, to which in open world pvp, no one build is considered the best, it would still keep players saying "I don't win every fight, so PvP is suckie" :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If you balance it right, there's no reason PvP couldn't be any different than PvE other than in open world PvP, those who are almost dead in PvP tend to run away, rather than finish. :p
But for that balance, I think it becomes a matter of one's defenses. But such balancing would either lead to players ignoring content "No. I skip those missions to avoid those enemies because they're fire armor and resist my fire attacks to much so it takes me forever" or "I only fight enemies that have zero resistance to my fire attacks."
And while it could lead to no one most powerful defense, to which in open world pvp, no one build is considered the best, it would still keep players saying "I don't win every fight, so PvP is suckie" :p

Indeed, but balance is also impossible if every "complaint" about PVP is immediately thrown into that "They just saying that PVP sucks because they don't win every time" category.

Balance takes some true looking into the mechanics and a true look as unbiased as it can be, look into how things work and if the way they are is truly working or be improved upon instead of the vision being clouded by, "I like it like this and don't have problem so everyone should feel the same and if they don't, they are just complaining because they don't win every time."

Look at the complaints without judgment and without personal feeling of "Well I like it so there is no issues." or "They don't like it because they don't know how to play" or what ever reason is made up to dismiss it. Usually, there is valid complaints there that shows that it may not be perfect and some things can be improved in one way or another. Only then can balance even be even thought of even trying to obtain.

Because in the end, every single person on this website, people that played COX, pvp or pve, and on the other websites at one point in time complained about something and thought their complaint was valid and wouldn't like people to simply brush it off and say it's invalid because they don't have no problem. Put a plate of dog crap in front of 1,000 people. Some will complain and some will tell those complaining to stop complaining because at it's something to eat and may have a few that tell everyone to stop complaining simply because they don't see a problem with eating dog crap and thus everyone should like it too and those that don't is just complaining because they are being too picky. Instead maybe it's simply that dog crap isn't something that should be eaten or maybe dog crap doesn't taste good. Or maybe some are wondering why are they being dog crap when they should be and paid for something else. Even if one person or 99% of people like it, if someone doesn't like it doesn't automatically mean their complaint is non valid unless the mechanic have achieved complete impossible to obtain perfection on god like levels where everyone in the entire world, here and other worlds like it without question. If that was the case then complaints wouldn't exist in the first place. If not 100% perfect, then that means it's imperfect and thus there is room for improvement and thus people may find these areas that in their eyes that could use some improvement. It may not be a perfect improvement or may not even be the improvement that gains complete perfection, but doesn't mean it's invalid. Many issues in MMO games would have solved easier and quickly if instead of aiming to poke holes in "complaints" and try to make it look invalid simply because one don't agree with it or have not experienced that problem, people look at it in an unbiased view and see and view the issue as if they want people to view the issues they have.

Because no one is a mind reader so a complaint that is not said cant be part of something that is said to be of existence. AKA it would never get solved. That is how games get better. Not by only looking and listening only to what is good and praise, and the nice. But from what can be improved. Because think about how mmo games would be if devs made it i1 and said, well this game is perfect. Anyone that complains is complaining to be complaining and need to learn how to play. Think about all the stuff that got added to COX that would have existed if no one said anything or the devs thought COX was unquestionably perfect at issue 1 and no changes for the entire 8 years+ years of it's existence and any complaint is answered with, "learn to play." People would probably say the game been abandoned by issue 4 or 5 with no changes or people would have gotten bored and left long before i13. Many of the things stated in What made CO special and what was good about COX came after some many issues after i1. And many of those things came about because players seen room for improvement and suggested it.

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That's why you don't balance

That's why you don't balance it off complaints. Though I don't think CoH ever tried to balance it off of complaints. I think there balance was more along the lines of trying to get more involved, and some ATs and powerset combo's just not being all that.

And most of the complaints usually seemed about dueling anyways. And I think it can be balanced for dueling, but to do so, it would mean, again, the fire blasting super reflexes hero, won't do damage to the fire armor using opponent.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

That's why you don't balance it off complaints. Though I don't think CoH ever tried to balance it off of complaints. I think there balance was more along the lines of trying to get more involved, and some ATs and powerset combo's just not being all that.
And most of the complaints usually seemed about dueling anyways. And I think it can be balanced for dueling, but to do so, it would mean, again, the fire blasting super reflexes hero, won't do damage to the fire armor using opponent.

Indeed. I think that was their intent in balancing it when they finally got around to it. Although it was a tad bit too late. Those that had rough time through out the years mostly already left the pvp zone a dead zone beside a select few that successfully ran them off. Then when the balance did hit, the intended target was already long gone and it ended up pissing off those that was left and liked it the way it was. Kind of like they finally conquered those that "complained" about pvp and got them out of the zones, and the zones are empty only to have the devs try and balance it. PVP never rebounded. That was one of those issues they should have nipped while in the bud stage instead of waiting until it went full bloom died and started rotting the zones. That was one of those balances that should have been done way before i13. But they had good intentions it seemed.

Well there was a bunch more complaints that didn't deal with dueling but they usually were ignored. Usually dueling complaints seemed more than there actually were because when someone mention it on the forum, that when the flame war starts and that topic gets lots of posts but the bare bones of it usually one guy talking about dueling and then people jumping on it like free million dollar lottery tickets and the rest of the complaints got buried and or lost in the sauce. Dueling seemed to be a small part of the complaints but the most quickly jumped on and flame wars. Thus making it seemed more common than it actually was. There were many complaints and suggestions about certain powers, team play and objectives, the "boring" usual kill everything in sight all day everyday pvp with no interaction much complaints, melee vs range, buffers, debuffers, MMs and force fields, Scores, rep system and badge, complaints about lack of pvp badges, complaints about the zone being empty, too little moderations, certain SGs, droning, and so on. But most of those were out right ignored in favor of flaming the person that dared to suggest something about dueling.

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Exactly! Why balance around

Exactly! Why balance around all characters being equal but different, so it's more the damage types and damage resistances that decide. Well, really, to late for that in CoT I think, but I still think it could be done.

With CoT, I'm not quite so sure. I think it will fall in line with how people would multiple kill the squishie when in team PvP to rack up the kill count. Dueling, no idea...think that will depend on a few other things.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Exactly! Why balance around all characters being equal but different, so it's more the damage types and damage resistances that decide. Well, really, to late for that in CoT I think, but I still think it could be done.
With CoT, I'm not quite so sure. I think it will fall in line with how people would multiple kill the squishie when in team PvP to rack up the kill count. Dueling, no idea...think that will depend on a few other things.

yeah seems to be headed to the usual kill the squishie retreat to base before rest of team can catch on, especially if defensive targets will be melee as usual which in pvp sometimes have tougher time getting ahold of ss/sj jack rabbit toon that can get in, kill squishy in two hits and be out before any of the melee toons can get a hold of it. Then simply repeat when squishie respawns. Very effective strategy that was used when trying to get rep points for the badge.

PVP in COX was pretty simple. Too simple. High damage, jack rabbit (SS/SJ), and win. Find yaself getting beat by the opponent high tail it out of there before death and that way the opponent cant get points off of ya. The standard is if ya cant kill it in two or three hits, find another target. COX PVP in a nutshell. There really wasn't any strategy to it beyond that. Different powers helped but it was mostly irrelevant, but range had easier time due to easier to use powers and hop around, and stalker as they can get closer but dont kill in AS followed by another power, retreat to base until AS recharge and find another target.

In dueling, to the death, powers had a bit more play into the outcome and what the opponent resisted and how much they can withstand compared to how much ya can withstand. And sometimes bringing say fire blaster to fight a fire tank, has and sometimes cause stale mates or draws, unless the fire tank can get their hands on the blaster who more than likely if they have any experience at COX pvp is either kiting or jack rabbiting. And a more advanced one have something like a flight canceling power to ensure the tank don't try and use flight to close the gap.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

That's why you don't balance it off complaints. Though I don't think CoH ever tried to balance it off of complaints. I think there balance was more along the lines of trying to get more involved, and some ATs and powerset combo's just not being all that.
And most of the complaints usually seemed about dueling anyways. And I think it can be balanced for dueling, but to do so, it would mean, again, the fire blasting super reflexes hero, won't do damage to the fire armor using opponent.

My memory of it is different. Cryptic started "balancing for PvP" very much from forum complaints even before they put in the Arena (which was itself rushed in way ahead of schedule as a result of forum complaints). Calm voices saying "be careful what you nerf" were regularly shouted down.

A main reason this caused so much grief is because they had previously (and perhaps foolishly) claimed they would never nerf PvE for PvP, and yet there is no doubt they did this many times between launch and i5. (After which I no longer paid attention to the fora).

The lessons are don't promise what you can't deliver, and, don't believe developers who claim they will "balance" PvP without changing the PvE game.

Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.

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HarvesterOfEyes wrote:
HarvesterOfEyes wrote:

Brand X wrote:
That's why you don't balance it off complaints. Though I don't think CoH ever tried to balance it off of complaints. I think there balance was more along the lines of trying to get more involved, and some ATs and powerset combo's just not being all that.
And most of the complaints usually seemed about dueling anyways. And I think it can be balanced for dueling, but to do so, it would mean, again, the fire blasting super reflexes hero, won't do damage to the fire armor using opponent.

My memory of it is different. Cryptic started "balancing for PvP" very much from forum complaints even before they put in the Arena (which was itself rushed in way ahead of schedule as a result of forum complaints). Calm voices saying "be careful what you nerf" were regularly shouted down.
A main reason this caused so much grief is because they had previously (and perhaps foolishly) claimed they would never nerf PvE for PvP, and yet there is no doubt they did this many times between launch and i5. (After which I no longer paid attention to the fora).
The lessons are don't promise what you can't deliver, and, don't believe developers who claim they will "balance" PvP without changing the PvE game.

Oh, how I remember that well. When they decided it was best to change the animation of my Energy Melee character from a nice looking quick punch to some long animation ugly thing.

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Gauntlet wrote:
Gauntlet wrote:

One of the larger problems i ran into in CoH/V and many other games is the powers are balanced around PVP compainers blowing up the forums with "blah blah is soooo overpowered. Nerf it to the ground!" Followed by page after page of flaming and begging and bullying the Devs into making changes that while may make THAT power better in PVP, KILLS that power for PVE.

All im saying is to keep yourself in the good graces of PVE'ers AND PVP'ers just addin PVP/PVE rule differences, if possible.

jag40 wrote:

I think that also caused a lot of tension between PVE and PVP players. When in PVE found their powers being nerfed because it's to balance PVP. And then the PVE find their character weaker because of a mechanic that they never play. And also it ticks off some PVP players not because the power is weaker in PVP but because when they go to PVE to gain PVP items, they cant do it as effectively and thus it messes with their PVP play especially in a game where PVE and PVP are supposedly separate.

This is exactly what happens in Star Trek Online - the developers have put in place an artificial divide between the two groups of players because they insist on keeping everything the same, rather then splitting it between PvP and PvE.

It's worse in STO since many PvE powers can be purchased on the store, so you get PvPers without money to spend complaining that people have paid to win, and then PvE people who paid to have fun with crazy powers complaining when the powers gets properly balanced so it isn't required for PvP.

Unfortunately, in another PvP thread, a CoT developer said the decision to make all powers the same across the board was made months ago, so that's a HUGE bummer.

It doesn't have to be wide sweeping changes, just examine certain powers individually - no need to make every single hold less effective in PvP, or something like that.

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Fun PS ty Zman

Fun

----------------------------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
CoH since 2004.
Lots of people soloed the big enemies.
NO EXTRA GEAR FOR PVP!!!!

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for most games: pvp left sour

for most games: pvp left sour taste in mouth, mostly due to people taking it to seriously , lack of balance and everyone doing whatever it takes to win: including cheating (map exploits, broken abilites, ect.)(i also get tactics such as camping and ganging are legit tactics also: thus not cheating even though people would look down on it)

i've had some good experiences with friends IE voice chatting with them and just dicking around and just goofing off with the other team also (ie not take the game seriously)

the main deturant for pvp for me is an unfixable problem:toxic part of the communityr, the cheaters and the people with egos that dwarf jupiter in size, people who would call you a noob for doing something they would do in a heartbeat also.

hopefully there will be some private matches

duels are also fun if not against said toxic part of the community

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I remember people trying to

I remember people trying to get isolator in RV. Those were the days! Is @BrooklynKnight still around?

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Lots of people soloed the big enemies.
NO EXTRA GEAR FOR PVP!!!!

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Crosknight wrote:
Crosknight wrote:

for most games: pvp left sour taste in mouth, mostly due to people taking it to seriously , lack of balance and everyone doing whatever it takes to win: including cheating (map exploits, broken abilites, ect.)(i also get tactics such as camping and ganging are legit tactics also: thus not cheating even though people would look down on it)
i've had some good experiences with friends IE voice chatting with them and just dicking around and just goofing off with the other team also (ie not take the game seriously)
the main deturant for pvp for me is an unfixable problem:toxic part of the communityr, the cheaters and the people with egos that dwarf jupiter in size, people who would call you a noob for doing something they would do in a heartbeat also.
hopefully there will be some private matches
duels are also fun if not against said toxic part of the community

I agree. The venom I saw from PvP killed it for me way more than any sort of balance issues. This is why I was content to stay out of their sandbox if they stayed out of mine. Not a good attitude I know but I'm playing to have fun, not get into a ****-swinging match with some kid living in his folk's basement plotting the end of the world through his uber PvP build and calling everyone a loser.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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I can't think of a single

I can't think of a single time I have liked PvP variation of any power.

Champions Online let taunts turn off blocking .. a stupid system. Enemies never blocked and the block mechanic (unless used for tanks to gain energy) was a waste.

Then they had "penetration" added to you could break through enemy defenses.. but only in PvP.. meaning if you were in PvE you completely waste character creation points.

Please make a combat system that does not require two separate gameplay.. Tanks should use their taunt to get enemy attention (and be able to survive). Controllers should be able to control enemies on the battle field (including confused perception), healers get to heal/shield, and most importantly Melee DPS is able to do their job of being close to a target and still dealing high DPS (which usually means they have a bit more damage mitigation that Ranged DPS).

- -

I like "The Games" where PvP is considered an In Character sport. Not the Roman Colosseum.. more like Staples Center. Make it feel like a regular sport and not a blood-sport.. How to do this? Do a post match cut-scene where the characters shake hands or something with a text bubble based on your character alignment (since you have a 3 point system) for instance my violence meter will be very close to zero .. I would not say "I'm gonna break your teeth next time".. I have a high law, low violence and low morals.. let my text bubble respect that.

This way if someone's character is a jerk after a PvP match, I can laugh about it without taking it personally.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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In wildstar, (example coming

In wildstar, (example coming up), if you get taunted by another player in PvP, you deal less damage to everyone else *apart* from the one taunting you.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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As far as the "venomous" part

As far as the "venomous" part of the community goes, I think looking at League of Legends' rating system is a good way to go. I'll have to find the articles, but they've implemented several systems that aim to curb poor behavior, and actively study and statistically analyze their players' behavior. With their new ratings systems and tribunal, the rate of bad behavior has dropped, apparently.

I found some articles which reference it, but not the one I initially read earlier: http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2013/01/modifying-player-behavior-in-league-of-legends-with-honor/ http://www.polygon.com/2012/10/17/3515178/the-league-of-legends-team-of-scientists-trying-to-cure-toxic

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I can't think of a single time I have liked PvP variation of any power.
Champions Online let taunts turn off blocking .. a stupid system. Enemies never blocked and the block mechanic (unless used for tanks to gain energy) was a waste.
Then they had "penetration" added to you could break through enemy defenses.. but only in PvP.. meaning if you were in PvE you completely waste character creation points.
Please make a combat system that does not require two separate gameplay.. Tanks should use their taunt to get enemy attention (and be able to survive). Controllers should be able to control enemies on the battle field (including confused perception), healers get to heal/shield, and most importantly Melee DPS is able to do their job of being close to a target and still dealing high DPS (which usually means they have a bit more damage mitigation that Ranged DPS).
- -
I like "The Games" where PvP is considered an In Character sport. Not the Roman Colosseum.. more like Staples Center. Make it feel like a regular sport and not a blood-sport.. How to do this? Do a post match cut-scene where the characters shake hands or something with a text bubble based on your character alignment (since you have a 3 point system) for instance my violence meter will be very close to zero .. I would not say "I'm gonna break your teeth next time".. I have a high law, low violence and low morals.. let my text bubble respect that.
This way if someone's character is a jerk after a PvP match, I can laugh about it without taking it personally.

....This one I have to shoot down.

Enemies in Champs DO block.. specifically your Nemesis, VIPER Power Armor, Baron Cimitiere, the false Nighthawks in alerts and in the missions for them, Mr. Gemini, Argent Mech-enforcers... there's a big list of em and that advantage DOES help against some (Cimitiere definitely.)

The Block Mechanic is actually one of the biggest things in the game for me since the block powers help against many enemies that you'd be massacred by without it (Jack Fool's Many Sharp Objects attack, Mega D's Energy Surge, anything Grond throws at you.) and most of them fit both thematically and build wise. Retaliation gives your next hit an 80/100/120% damage boost after blocking a hit, very useful for tanks. Parry allows you to block and deal damage every few seconds. Ebon Void heals you as you block AND the Advantage you can take gives stacking increases to your damage resistance. The list goes on.

Now, for Penetration (PvP). And that's how it's referred to in the game, so no complaints.

Ehem.. look how you had to get those Penetration (PvP) Cores. By doing specific PvE missions that give you a choice between ONE of them or some other Cores (think the others were crit and dodge). The only two gear that gives you Penetration (PvP) are only obtainable by doing PvP. Then there's the fact Penetration (PvP) is worthless (..no I'm serious. It is.). So the point is moot. Unless you meant Defense Penetration which is only gained by 2 other ways, either one of Intelligence Primary's specializations (At most it gives 60% and that is.. oh god an ungodly level of Int. You'd have to gear only for INT and mod only for it.) and by using Depleted Uranium Cores... which are a VERY rare drop from the Warlord Alert and only give 15% (or was it 10..) Defense Penetration.

EITHER WAY, you have to stat soley for it.. and that is why the only people who do such a thing are the Flavor of the Month club. And that's not as big as you might think. Only 4 SGs that would be considered such..

As for the plead, one problem is the Tank one. Taunts work because they change enemy AI to "KILL THAT GUY!" You can't change human nature which is to take down the weakest person for a fast victory. And in CoH, having two different gameplay styles was unavoidable as it is in ALL games. You can't go against a live human the same way you go against a computer. It just doesn't work and expecting it to will lead to extreme amounts of rage. The computer would probably never do the Hit and Run tactics PvPers employed for a while.. or pick off one person at a time like I did on my Stalker. And since CoT is working to have Pool Powers.. you'd probably see things that throw you off, just as you did in CoH. Lord Nightmare, as I've mentioned before in a few other threads, was an unkillable monster of a Corrupter thanks to Presence and Fighting (and of course being an Energy/Dark). Anyone who might have thought "Ooo! Cor have low health.. easy win" was immediately smacked with the "Think Again" sign when they went flying...

...and he was PvE built!

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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pvp to me is a stress

pvp to me is a stress reliever. Nothing like beating the crap out of another living person in a productive fun way.

"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander

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I specifically hope CoT does

I specifically hope CoT does not use a block mechanic. And despite your objections, I still hold that the taunt in Champions Online is a "buy it for PvP" power along with many others.

That said.. if others found it useful in PvE (particularly if you were NOT a tank) then I can agree to disagree. My character particularly did not want to taunt an enemy just to remove their defenses.. and she's a debuff centric character. Taking aggro is not good for characters that are not tanks.

Anyhow.. Please.. keep the powers as similar in mechanic in PvE as to PvP.. this means smarter Enemy (and boss) AI that uses the same tactics players should expect to see in PvP so slotting for "Crowd Control Defenses" for instance isn't a waste in PvE but neccesary for PvP.

No More Useless Mechanics.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I specifically hope CoT does not use a block mechanic. And despite your objections, I still hold that the taunt in Champions Online is a "buy it for PvP" power along with many others.
That said.. if others found it useful in PvE (particularly if you were NOT a tank) then I can agree to disagree. My character particularly did not want to taunt an enemy just to remove their defenses.. and she's a debuff centric character. Taking aggro is not good for characters that are not tanks.
Anyhow.. Please.. keep the powers as similar in mechanic in PvE as to PvP.. this means smarter Enemy (and boss) AI that uses the same tactics players should expect to see in PvP so slotting for "Crowd Control Defenses" for instance isn't a waste in PvE but neccesary for PvP.
No More Useless Mechanics.

If that remark CC Defense is a slam on Champs, my Behemoth and Glacier would like a word with you.

I think that there should be SOME form of a blocking or defensive maneuver/power available to all ATs to help mitigate extremely high damaging attacks from enemies. Even if it's one with a 30 second cooldown.

Coming from a genre standpoint, there would be two ways to avoid massive damage from attacks: Moving out of the way or defending yourself. IIRC, CoT will feature tab targeting so the first one doesn't seem likely. If NEITHER are implemented then you have to allow for major damage mitigation in gearing/enhancements or take a healing power and boost it as much as you can (or a healer) then just deal with it when your character stands there screaming as they take a Galick Gun to the face.

And again, you CANNOT program an AI to respond even close to how human players would. Well.. you can, but it'd cost as much to program one AI like that as it would to open up a Starbucks. On the moon. Not to mention the years that'd take. THEN that might even lead to some enemies just being unbeatable within a nice timeframe. Imagine if you were a melee fighter and a group of thugs all jumped up onto a roof and took potshots at you, or backpedaled while shooting. How about if you were a ranged fighting a Melee with Knockto and he did NOTHING but spam it until you were close enough? The point I'm making is that if you give all enemies this Human-like AI and the tools to fight anything, you have pretty much removed all fun from fighting them and turned every "Kill X Skuls" into a constant grind.

Does that sound fun?

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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I have so few nice things to

I have so few nice things to say about Champions Online

Programming enemies that are diverse (Healer enemies, Mez Enemies, Tank Enemies) and not just punching bags of DPS dealing mobs is completely possible. And NO it will not perform like a player.. it has AI pathing, AI attack rotations.. But that doesn't mean that I don't want ranged DPS enemies to understand "I should keep my distance from enemies" and healing enemies to know "I should proc my shield when allies are below 50% health"

The alternative is you give players the option to get a defense like Mez Resistance and it means absolutely nothing in their character performance.. and yes.. that is a slam at Champions Online.

Programming PvE has come a VERY long way. Have you heard of the AI system coming up in Everquest Next? Trolls will actually attack in a troll-like fashion.. waiting for stragglers to cross their path.. different factions will actually respond to character choices.

While CoT may not have a perpetual enemy AI server.. they CAN make combat AI more than "We walk up in a group and wait to be AoE'd to death".

- -

If a mechanic exists in PvP it should exist in PvE (including kiting). And Yes .. that does sound fun.. much more fun that standing still and pressing buttons to enemies that are overly homogenized and predictable

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
I specifically hope CoT does not use a block mechanic. And despite your objections, I still hold that the taunt in Champions Online is a "buy it for PvP" power along with many others.
That said.. if others found it useful in PvE (particularly if you were NOT a tank) then I can agree to disagree. My character particularly did not want to taunt an enemy just to remove their defenses.. and she's a debuff centric character. Taking aggro is not good for characters that are not tanks.
Anyhow.. Please.. keep the powers as similar in mechanic in PvE as to PvP.. this means smarter Enemy (and boss) AI that uses the same tactics players should expect to see in PvP so slotting for "Crowd Control Defenses" for instance isn't a waste in PvE but neccesary for PvP.
No More Useless Mechanics.

I
Does that sound fun?

Good stuff good points.

Grind, well apparently many players love grind. The grind games seem to be making the mega millions, with million plus player per game. So it would seem many do that find that fun.

Would I find it fun? Depends on how it's done. If it's well done, then sure. But it's just doing that with no aim, like fleeing mobs, which I think is supposed to eb a retreat or something but end up running aimlesslessly around the map for no reason or simply at the sight, then no that isn't fun, even though it was suppose to make the AI "smarter".

If the AI, say is going to kite, or keep distance, by back peddling, well I think it would make an interesting fight if they did it for a purpose instead of simply doing it just to be doing it because it looks "smarter". Then again, that basically kills the melee class off the top as some people may not find that quite as enjoyable having to play tag every single fight and chase mob around just to find a fight.

But at the same time I think for me at least it would be a bit more enjoyable if the enemy mobs had their own personality and fighting style instead of all have the same and all flee the same like in COX. Or every other mob have the same power, some sort of gun, like in CO. Variety is fun. Some may be skittish, some may wait around corners for ambush, others just attack ya until either you of it die. Some range some melee some both. But of course that would take work to give each enemy mob or some of them their own personality.

AI will never be like human anymore than imitation leather will be passable as quality leather. Plus do we really want to program AI to human behavior, and which human would be programed off? SOmetimes AI is really better and more enjoyable to fight. While human are more predictable, with AI you don't get all the drama that goes along with human interaction sometimes.

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I don't think kiting would

I don't think kiting would kill melee classes .. if melee classes had a mechanic to close the gap (a lunge or pull). And I'm not saying they AI would ALWAYS be moving .. but they certainly shouldn't stand still in groups waiting to be killed like they do in so many games.

If melee DPS players get used to closing the gap on ranged players (and have game mechanics to do it EFFECTIVELY) then when that same player enters PvP and is confronted with players who they must also close the gap to hit it wont come as such a shock that all the sudden they have to play the game differently

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WoW always did that well with

WoW always did that well with Warriors getting a lunge that Stunned as well and Death Knights getting Death Grip, which was a pull.. 10 Second cooldown IIRC (and a lockdown.. and a glyph for two certain abilities that slowed movement when the enemy was affected with them). Considering that you can't move while casting, the enemy wasn't necessarily screwed.. the two of you could stand side to side and smack eachother with abilities and anyone could still win. It just made it less easy because once you're in range, you can actually fight back.

A thing I commend CoH on was that flight was locked out when you entered combat (unless it was Hover.) Boom, Melee and ranged only had the distance factor. And closing that distance was quite easy.. unless you were dealing with a CC'er or anyone with KB (AKA: Me~ *hugs Energy blast*)

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

WoW always did that well with Warriors getting a lunge that Stunned as well and Death Knights getting Death Grip, which was a pull.. 10 Second cooldown IIRC (and a lockdown.. and a glyph for two certain abilities that slowed movement when the enemy was affected with them). Considering that you can't move while casting, the enemy wasn't necessarily screwed.. the two of you could stand side to side and smack eachother with abilities and anyone could still win. It just made it less easy because once you're in range, you can actually fight back.
A thing I commend CoH on was that flight was locked out when you entered combat (unless it was Hover.) Boom, Melee and ranged only had the distance factor. And closing that distance was quite easy.. unless you were dealing with a CC'er or anyone with KB (AKA: Me~ *hugs Energy blast*)

When did they lock out flight in combat? (didn't use flight much). Raining down hell with flight wasa common tactic too especially before the SJ/SS combo caught on as the FoTM. But that may explain how the SS/SJ combo came into popularity.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I don't think kiting would kill melee classes .. if melee classes had a mechanic to close the gap (a lunge or pull). And I'm not saying they AI would ALWAYS be moving .. but they certainly shouldn't stand still in groups waiting to be killed like they do in so many games.
If melee DPS players get used to closing the gap on ranged players (and have game mechanics to do it EFFECTIVELY) then when that same player enters PvP and is confronted with players who they must also close the gap to hit it wont come as such a shock that all the sudden they have to play the game differently

Ah yes the key is game mechanics. COX didn't have such game mechanic, EFFECTIVE game mechanic for that. I think CO have a little bit in some powers, (chain, force, I think one of those dark powers to name a few).

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Huh. I had never considered

Huh. I had never considered making the NPCs smarter, rather than separating PvP and PvE powers, as a solution to the PvE vs. PvP problem. That would probably solve it, since the problem arises when powers that are fantastic against dumb AI mobs are OP in PvP (or vice versa), causing a power to be changed for PvP's sake, but made terrible in PvE. A power effective against NPCs that are doing (or trying to do) the same things as PvPers wouldn't be different in PvP, since it's designed for the same purpose.

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jag40 wrote:
jag40 wrote:

Lord Nightmare wrote:
WoW always did that well with Warriors getting a lunge that Stunned as well and Death Knights getting Death Grip, which was a pull.. 10 Second cooldown IIRC (and a lockdown.. and a glyph for two certain abilities that slowed movement when the enemy was affected with them). Considering that you can't move while casting, the enemy wasn't necessarily screwed.. the two of you could stand side to side and smack eachother with abilities and anyone could still win. It just made it less easy because once you're in range, you can actually fight back.
A thing I commend CoH on was that flight was locked out when you entered combat (unless it was Hover.) Boom, Melee and ranged only had the distance factor. And closing that distance was quite easy.. unless you were dealing with a CC'er or anyone with KB (AKA: Me~ *hugs Energy blast*)

When did they lock out flight in combat? (didn't use flight much). Raining down hell with flight wasa common tactic too especially before the SJ/SS combo caught on as the FoTM. But that may explain how the SS/SJ combo came into popularity.

From the description of Fly:

"Fly allows you to travel long distances quickly. If you attack a target while this power is on, your Flight speed will be temporarily reduced to Hover speed."

Kay, so it didn't lock it out. My mistake.

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

jag40 wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:
WoW always did that well with Warriors getting a lunge that Stunned as well and Death Knights getting Death Grip, which was a pull.. 10 Second cooldown IIRC (and a lockdown.. and a glyph for two certain abilities that slowed movement when the enemy was affected with them). Considering that you can't move while casting, the enemy wasn't necessarily screwed.. the two of you could stand side to side and smack eachother with abilities and anyone could still win. It just made it less easy because once you're in range, you can actually fight back.
A thing I commend CoH on was that flight was locked out when you entered combat (unless it was Hover.) Boom, Melee and ranged only had the distance factor. And closing that distance was quite easy.. unless you were dealing with a CC'er or anyone with KB (AKA: Me~ *hugs Energy blast*)

When did they lock out flight in combat? (didn't use flight much). Raining down hell with flight wasa common tactic too especially before the SJ/SS combo caught on as the FoTM. But that may explain how the SS/SJ combo came into popularity.

From the description of Fly:
"Fly allows you to travel long distances quickly. If you attack a target while this power is on, your Flight speed will be temporarily reduced to Hover speed."
Kay, so it didn't lock it out. My mistake.

Oh right. yeah.
Well by definition you are correct. It did lock out ability to use flight in a a speed sense and kind of turned it into hover. If I'm not mistaken the flight speed in combat was about the same as hover while attacking and a few seconds after engaging in combat.

Sorry I was thinking the power it self couldn't be activated or deactivated in combat type of lock out.

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Agree with the no need for

Agree with the no need for separate builds to PvE and PvP. I hated when I had to take my build that I had used for PvE and PvP and change it to work better in PvP. PvP was much more fun to me when I could use my one build all the time.

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What I think was the biggest

What I think was the biggest problem in CoH's PvP system is that the game was not created in the mindset of having a PvP system at all. If the guys at CoT can create this game all while keeping the idea of implementing PvP on the to-do list, I think that they'll have MUCH less trouble since the problems that CoH was having thirteen issues into it's lifespan can be solved before CoT leaves open beta. I wish I had the link to the "PvP wishlist" that was sitting gathering dust on the CoH forums so long ago just to put out the ideas that the pvp community gathered after i13.

Ex Night Widow PvP main

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Telth wrote:
Telth wrote:

I wish I had the link to the "PvP wishlist" that was sitting gathering dust on the CoH forums so long ago just to put out the ideas that the pvp community gathered after i13.

Ask and ye shall receive.


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Wow, Redlynne, NICE!

Wow, Redlynne, NICE!

disclaimer: my opinions and observations. Pardon any offense or ignorance, I’ve only read part of this long thread...

A few thoughts…
My short PvP history: I was a reluctant PvPer in CoX most of my time there, rarely venturing into the PvP zones. Then I discovered the PvP Bootcamp, run by Masque and Madame Pistacio and a few others, sorry if I don’t mention them. And I really took a liking to it. Now granted, it was Arena fighting, a very controlled training atmosphere, very supportive, very newbie-friendly, and very pleasant compared to most of my PvP experiences before or since.

Now , here’s what I learned there and in my other PvP experiences:

• Foremost, in CoX, it was and would have been impossible to balance 1v1 PvP. SO DON’T TRY. State at the outset that almost never will a (blaster vs defender) fight ever turn out well. (It might be interesting, but shouldn’t be a design goal.) The game cannot be designed to do this. If PvP is designed to have ‘balance’**, it should work towards TEAM PvP balance, not 1v1 PvP balance. The other is too complex.

Eg: Let’s play football; now let’s just have 2 players on the field: a QB and a linebacker. Now the QB can be awesome, but seriously… Once we reattach the QB’s head to his body and somehow reanimate him, he will likely say, “THAT WAS SERIOUSLY NOT FUN!”
The game should be designed around team play, both in PvE and PvP, with a strong nod to make PvE solo play viable.

• All due respect to the above posters who want PvE and PvP to use the same builds, I respectfully disagree. Making these two very different modes of play in-balance with the same builds and enhancers would be nearly impossible, and I think CoX proved that. The clearest way to understand why it’s so hard to do is to realize that with 12-15 AT’s, adding a new AT to this mix would require balancing the new AT not only against the PvE creatures and challenges, but then also against all the existing AT’s and the respective ‘enhancers’ used… too many variables to ‘balance’… players always exploit abilities in unforeseeably creative ways… the mind boggles.

PvE should never suffer at the hands of PvP, (someone mentioned the nerfing of Energy Punch for PvE because of a PvP match, forever negatively altering the PvE experience, and causing resentment by PvE’ers towards PvP’ers as a result..

• One of two options to prevent pay to win:

1: ‘Premium’ PvP ‘enhancers’ should be 100% separate from PvE ‘enhancers’ (and other PvP ‘gear’).. They should be earned in the PvP environment, and this way, can be nerfed/boosted to affect the PvP experience, and not affect the PvE experience. Multiple builds are the key here.

Or 2: PvP enhancers should be chosen from a fixed pool, with fixed power levels. Available to all at any time (ostensibly for free), these at least keep the players on a level field with respect to these items, and keeps the barrier to entry really low.… this is one of the things we had to control in the PvP Bootcamp – we had to ensure no one was putting 5 Lotg +Recharge or multiple superstrong and expensive PvP damage procs in their powers, to make the game more equitable and fun for everyone.

• Can we have ‘games’? Where powers can be used, but not in a directly destructive/killing manner as the only option? I’m thinking of Huttball from SWTOR in particular. That was I think the favorite part of that game for me. Other options, like Capture the Flag, etc. (This link was mentioned: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-kind-pvp-games-do-you-want-see)

• Selectable ‘everything’ for arena-type play. Maps, toggles for travel suppression, heal decay/etc if that’s a thing, ‘inspiration’ use, other settings as appropriate – make the arena accessible to every option possible.

• The majority of rewards should be for participation. Winning should get an added reward, but you should get more points for playing than winning… like 100 to each for playing, 50 for winning, as an example. Just my personal opinion, I think it would get more people to participate and less people focusing on the win.

• Don’t focus on making huge PvP zones – let people instance PvE zones for PvP… just an idea to save resources from being underutilized by their nature… then if there’s loads of PvP demand, make 1 zone and see how it works.

Just a few to start. Thanks for reading.

Main characters in COH on Victory: Linarra, Carborundum, Novesse, Knitefire, Liberal Media Elite, Baka Bing Baka Boom.

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galadiman wrote:
galadiman wrote:

• Foremost, in CoX, it was and would have been impossible to balance 1v1 PvP. SO DON’T TRY. State at the outset that almost never will a (blaster vs defender) fight ever turn out well. (It might be interesting, but shouldn’t be a design goal.) The game cannot be designed to do this. If PvP is designed to have ‘balance’**, it should work towards TEAM PvP balance, not 1v1 PvP balance. The other is too complex.

I've said this and agreed with it before, so I'll agree with it again.

Quote:

• All due respect to the above posters who want PvE and PvP to use the same builds, I respectfully disagree. Making these two very different modes of play in-balance with the same builds and enhancers would be nearly impossible, and I think CoX proved that. The clearest way to understand why it’s so hard to do is to realize that with 12-15 AT’s, adding a new AT to this mix would require balancing the new AT not only against the PvE creatures and challenges, but then also against all the existing AT’s and the respective ‘enhancers’ used… too many variables to ‘balance’… players always exploit abilities in unforeseeably creative ways… the mind boggles.

The desire is not for PvE and PvP to necessarily use or require the same builds, rather for the powers to behave in a similar fashion. The idea behind this is so that someone who has never tried PvP before can do so without having to relearn how to play their character. Optimizing a build and learning the play style necessary to perform adequately in PvP - i.e. "learning the rules", which will doubtlessly include some differences in game mechanics - can be daunting enough without seeing one's power set become something unexpected and, perhaps, undesired. The premise is to make the bar to entry into PvP as low as possible to encourage people to participate, even if it's just to dabble.

Quote:

PvE should never suffer at the hands of PvP, (someone mentioned the nerfing of Energy Punch for PvE because of a PvP match, forever negatively altering the PvE experience, and causing resentment by PvE’ers towards PvP’ers as a result..

And vice versa. Obviously it will be much more difficult to achieve this while keeping the power sets as similar as possible between the two, but it's a worthy goal.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

The desire is not for PvE and PvP to necessarily use or require the same builds, rather for the powers to behave in a similar fashion. The idea behind this is so that someone who has never tried PvP before can do so without having to relearn how to play their character. Optimizing a build and learning the play style necessary to perform adequately in PvP - i.e. "learning the rules", which will doubtlessly include some differences in game mechanics - can be daunting enough without seeing one's power set become something unexpected and, perhaps, undesired. The premise is to make the bar to entry into PvP as low as possible to encourage people to participate, even if it's just to dabble.

/signed and quoted for emphasis

The problem is that the "pressures" brought to bear on Players by other Players is not symmetrical with the pressures brought to bear on Players by Foe NPCs in PvE. That lack of symmetrical pressure on playstyles and build strategies lies at the root of the desire to have separate PvE and PvP builds, simply because the "needs" of the two activities do not align that well. As a simple example of this disparity ... AoE was (and often is) "king" in damage dealing in PvE, while Single Target was (and often is) "king" in damage dealing in PvP ... which in and of itself makes it challenging to reconcile within a single build strategy that can do both equally well.


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Um, I coud not have said that

Um, I coud not have said that better myself. Case in point: Telekenesis in CoX was practically removed completely iirc because it was a literal (I think I'm using that term correctly here...) "I WIN" button in pvp...

Because most opponents in PvE are what is generally referred to as 'mooks' (trivially dispensed-with opponents), while in PvP, everyone is a breathing person that WANTS to WIN, it's really hard to balance the 2 modes.

And if it's necessary to 'nerf' and even significantly modify a power for PvP, it would be really bad to have to do the same to the PvE power and change it on that basis - I reiterate, it was a source for huge chagrin in the PvE community of CoX that PvE was often negatively impacted by concerns that were solely on the PvP side.

Main characters in COH on Victory: Linarra, Carborundum, Novesse, Knitefire, Liberal Media Elite, Baka Bing Baka Boom.

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PvP is a lot of dieing, until

PvP is a lot of dieing, until you totally PWN somebody, and then all that dieing is totally worth it.

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It's fun to have a livefire

It's fun to have a livefire opponent, that thinks quickly and can be unpredictable. Where there is PvP rivalries, acrimony, friendships are formed.
It's also a nice break from the grind.

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Definitely worth a look for

Definitely worth a look for anyone who is interested in PvP, even from a purely philosophical standpoint: Raph Koster talks TEFs (from Star Wars Galaxies).

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i see a boss Summons a

i see a boss Summons a players help out i.e like Looking Glass Knight if read more it Looking Glass Knight
here link http://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Looking+Glass+Knight

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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What does PvP mean to me?...,

What does PvP mean to me?...,

- I never really thought of PvP much...the only times (...and they were few...) that I did get involved in PvP was either helping another character learn effective strategies and/or player made content nominally involving some sort of backstory or reason for the PvP to be occurring. What bothered me about PvP in general was the absolute lack of concern for any kind of reason or purpose other than badge-hunting. How to improve/encourage PvP? Make PvP scenarios require objectives...and in comic book genre, there was always an objective. If there weren't, it'd be just a duel (...or whatever you want to call it...). Duels can be resolved in Arenas and/or AE...but PvP zones should all have a unified purpose that is essential to accomplish for either side to be considered victorious. Failing these objectives may require the defeat of the opposing side, but may not be absolutely vital...depending on objective. It doesn't really matter if you defeat 'Dr. Evil' if you didn't prevent him from entering the launch codes to his nefarious rocket...if you destroyed his launch console, that's a different story. ;)

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