Announcements

Check out the new UPDATED Powers List: https://cityoftitans.com/content/power-sets

Missed a few of Artstrong's Twitch streams? Check out some here: https://cityoftitans.com/content/2022-twitch-review

Get the latest Patch now! The MacOS Client Launcher is Now available in the store! If you've already donated $50 or more, you'll find the Mac Launcher on your rewards page. https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/

Join the conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2

What has been decided about combat?

76 posts / 0 new
Last post
Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
What has been decided about combat?

Can anyone quote or link me to decisions actual rednames have stated on the various aspects of combat? For example: Recharge, Endurance, dodging, whether we will have to spam end-builder powers, etc.?

I've seen player discussion, suggestion, and speculation but I want to know what (if anything) has officially either been set in stone or stated as a strong intention by MWM themselves.

Thanks in advance.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Zombie Man
Zombie Man's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 8 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 07/26/2013 - 19:23
Nothing publicly has been set

Nothing publicly has been set in stone yet except to say it won't be twitchy.

Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator

jessejame
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 07:42
So much for the theme "Twitch
Zombie Man wrote:

Nothing publicly has been set in stone yet except to say it won't be twitchy.

So much for the theme "Twitch"

Keep Low. Move Fast. Kill First. Die Last. One Shot. One Kill. No Luck. Pure Skill.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Nothing publicly has been set in stone yet except to say it won't be twitchy.

Thanks. ZM. Will we get more details before the kickstarter expires? This is the main question mark left for me in determining whether this game will be what I'm looking for, and information I need to decide how I respond to the KS.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Rad
Rad's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 2 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 12:51
Though I do prefer Twitchy

Though I do prefer Twitchy gameplay I'm not surprised if they're doing old-school controls. It's more casual friendly, and that was what CoH was about. It was a game everyone could play, no matter age, gender, physical limitations or limited gametime to spend. You jumped in, found a few teammates and had a blast from the start.

-----[ Rad ]-----

Krazy_ivan
Krazy_ivan's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:04
RAD brought up a question

RAD brought up a question about controls and I wanted to elaborate a bit. The one thing I really liked about COH was the gui interface. you could move powertrays around or the chat window which really made things easier for me. I'm not a big fan of hitting the Fkeys to trigger a power or hitting a number keys to use an inspiration. I like to click powers off of a tray. Will there be powertrays and will I be able to move them around my screen? I know there are much more advanced keyboard gamers out there that have no trouble hitting keys without looking at the keyboard. Unfortunately I am not a skilled keyboard gamer, so I'm hoping that point and click gamers like myself will be able to stick with the format we have become comfortable with.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Krazy_ivan wrote:
Krazy_ivan wrote:

I'm not a big fan of hitting the Fkeys to trigger a power or hitting a number keys to use an inspiration. I like to click powers off of a tray.

Thanks for bringing that up, Ivan. I'm completely with you on this and forgot to mention it. The lack of click-friendliness is at the top of the list of reasons I didn't play NW for more than a couple days.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Justice Blues
Justice Blues's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/14/2013 - 14:15
Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Nothing publicly has been set in stone yet except to say it won't be twitchy.

Just please tell me that you all have convinced Arcanaville to help run the numbers for the combat system. And everything else in the game that has numbers associated with it. :D

The Fighting Ca...
The Fighting Canadian's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/10/2013 - 10:03
I love the combat in Final

I love the combat in Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. The trays can be customized, they are in a tray for use with number keys, FKeys or the mouse, yet you can move freely in combat and execute attacks, depending on your class. Obviously when attacks are not instant, like mage abilities which require a charge up, you can't move or it's interrupted, but you CAN interrupt if you need to move out of the way of an AOE. The director of FFXIV:ARR made his team go play other MMO's and I believe that is why the re launch of that title has been so successful. It has a mix of what works, and ditches what doesn't, from the pantheon of MMO's that are out and have been out.

Active combat which allows movement, powers that require charging to execute should be interuptable to be able to get out of the way of an incoming attack, trays that are clickable or accessed via keys.

Thank You for letting me share my input.

KaosKitteh
KaosKitteh's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/10/2013 - 02:30
I loved the mobility, free

I loved the mobility, free camera, and especially the dodge mechanic from GW2. The big attacks were telegraphed so that if you were paying attention you could gtfo of the way and keep the dying to a minimum. Like it should be, though, if you weren't paying attention it was easy to miss those telegraphed signals.

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

Come and listen to NameSake Radio!

cybermitheral
cybermitheral's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/21/2013 - 20:54
Twitch play becomes

Twitch play becomes problematic for those with significant PING or Lag.
This can include anyone from overseas (Hi) or those with a slow Internet connection (Hi again).
Same goes for those "Hold button/key to build up power" ideas.

I much prefer the way CoH did power activation/recharge times to the generic/and for some reasons commonly used Global Cool Down mechanics of WoW/SW:ToR (aka WoW with Lightsabres)/TSW/etc

The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer

Thunder-Puncher
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 18:36
Agreed...,

Agreed...,

- ...twitch play should be avoided if not at all costs...you cannot factor in the possible side-effects of ISP congestion and the freak occurrence inducing internet lag. If you base a combat system based on twitch-type combat...someone's going to have a really lousy experience, even vets, so why leave that particular window upon to an insurmountable amount of complaints regarding how 'I lagged and died'. Yes, I know...twitch games are fun - most console games are like that, but global internet games are not the best choice for that particular type of venue...

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 4 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Nothing publicly has been set in stone yet except to say it won't be twitchy.

That's fine because if someone out there is looking for "Twitch" there's hundreds of console games that'll cater to that. Not saying "Twitch" games are bad per se, but the last time I think I enjoyed that type of play just for its own sake the Atari 2600 was still a state-of-the-art machine. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Eco
Eco's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/21/2013 - 03:43
Another strident 'No' here to

Another strident 'No' here to any sort of twitch combat. And no facing either, thanks. TSW's facing crap is awful (combined with its glacial run speed).

MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Thunder-Puncher wrote:
Thunder-Puncher wrote:

Agreed...,
- ...twitch play should be avoided if not at all costs...you cannot factor in the possible side-effects of ISP congestion and the freak occurrence inducing internet lag. If you base a combat system based on twitch-type combat...someone's going to have a really lousy experience, even vets, so why leave that particular window upon to an insurmountable amount of complaints regarding how 'I lagged and died'. Yes, I know...twitch games are fun - most console games are like that, but global internet games are not the best choice for that particular type of venue...

I have lagged and died in CoX... and that was from full health to zero health.

Granted, I was on a controller, but it was annoying when it happened.

And people wonder why MMO's sometimes have regionalised servers... because they allow the game to have a *better* performance for those who might otherwise have a bad ping connecting to a server that is halfway across the world.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Eco wrote:
Eco wrote:

Another strident 'No' here to any sort of twitch combat. And no facing either, thanks. TSW's facing crap is awful (combined with its glacial run speed).

+1

Keyboard command to target and auto-face, please.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Klaw10
Klaw10's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/06/2013 - 02:51
I am also not a fan of active

I am also not a fan of active block or hold to buildup mechanics. For the same lag reason as above but also because I can never work out when is the best time to use them and they break the rhythm of the battles.

I really tried to adapt to the NW system but it got to the point where I dreaded even the smallest encounter.

__

Don't know what you don't know. Only know what you know.
-The wiseman.

syntaxerror37
syntaxerror37's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: 08/24/2013 - 11:01
*sigh*

*sigh*

I really wish people wouldn't call it twitch combat. Active combat is a much better descriptor, as in most of these games the reflexes involved are far removed from what most gamers would call twitch. I can understand lag issues with active combat, but none of the games I played (NW and GW2 off the top of my head) required cutting edge reflexes.

All of this is a moot point as the devs have already committed to a classic style combat, but i have issues with bad naming conventions.

-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!

The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
I think there has to be a

I think there has to be a happy medium between active combat and cooldown combat.

Servers are a HUGE factor in this (and we've heard their plan for universal servers instead of multi-shard servers). The larger the game grows the more difficult it will be to maintain combat that affects larger portions of the map and more variables, but I see the merit in single server maps.

But the more players on one server the more static the combat needs to be. This is an internet limitation.

But I have to say.. combat that is static (or non-twitch combat) greatly reduce the value of crowd control (Slows and Roots especially) meaning the mez system instead has a steep curve on what Crowd Control is valuable and what is not. In CoH CC was mostly used for the Status Effects that stop enemies from attacking and not as much for the distance and movement value. I say this because those status effects that leave enemies from being able to attack are the most UNdesireable in PvP because player experience is negated.

Enemy AI has come a long way since CoH was first created. So has MMO combat learned better ways to factor distance, UI, and controls to enhance the player experience without leaving behind the differently-able playerbase. I sincerely hope CoT takes advantage of these increases in technology and gaming experience. I truly think the days of "Stand and Cast" are gone for a reason.

I will also say that movement and action is something intrinsic to the superhero experience. Superspeed melee, Flight Melee, Acrobatic Melee (and range for that matter) .. all of these are visualized by moving heroes in combat. I sincerely think there are smart ways to have action based combat that is reactionary but not based on "twitch" reflexes like a first person shooter. Ariel combat (Z axis) and Moving Combat have been approached well before. I recommend giving melee players a "Lunge and Grab" ability that tethers them to their targets melee range for a limited time to keep "kiting" to a minimum.

But I do systematically reject the idea that "mobile and reactionary" combat is the same as "twitch combat". Luckily the classic "Tab Targeting" combat can still be compatible with smart enemy AI and player UI keeping the combat dynamic and fluid.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Thunder-Puncher
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 18:36
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I will also say that movement and action is something intrinsic to the superhero experience. Superspeed melee, Flight Melee, Acrobatic Melee (and range for that matter) .. all of these are visualized by moving heroes in combat. I sincerely think there are smart ways to have action based combat that is reactionary but not based on "twitch" reflexes like a first person shooter. Ariel combat (Z axis) and Moving Combat have been approached well before. I recommend giving melee players a "Lunge and Grab" ability that tethers them to their targets melee range for a limited time to keep "kiting" to a minimum.

CoX started implementing...,

- ...movement power based attacks, which I thought was long overdue...though I didn't see certain attack powers that were inherently common in most comic books genres. For example - the Super Speed 'Dash Punch', which I could essentially replicate with my El/El Super Speed Blaster by keeping Super Speed on and running by a target with Charged Brawl queued...and though it was fast - it didn't feel like I was dashing forward in a blink of an eye delivering a punch. They did implement Leap Attack, which was fairly thematic to those who had Super Leap...but other standard 'Movement Attack Powers', like some kind of 'Teleport Punch', was left out. Of course, all these particular attacks could be simulated off of former systems like Shield Charge and Leap Attack...so it wasn't too much of a concern since the programming was already there - it was merely a question of animation and graphics.

- A long time ago, I did think of a 'Wrestling Power Pool'...which would included such powers as Grapple (A Toggle Mag 3 Melee Immob which prevented both the target and the player from moving until the Toggle was either turned off or after a short period of time), Hold (A Toggle Mag 3 Melee Hold that locked out both target and player's offensive powers, including movement, until the Toggle was turned off or after a short period of time), Wrestling Prowess (Toggle Resist vs Immobs and Holds) and Throw (A Melee Ranged Teleport Other Power that dealt High Sm Damage to the Target Location in a PBAOE with a chance to deal Knock Back...very long recharge). Clearly, of course, this Power Pool Set wouldn't be very effective against Giant Monsters, Elite Bosses and AV's...but just something to consider... ^_^

- Note: If the Grapple/Hold was resisted...the player would still lose endurance even if the target wasn't Immobilized or Held and the Toggle would turn off automatically. However, if the Grapple/Hold was resisted...then the target would receive a Fatigued Status Effect for a short period of time which would DeBuff their resistance to other Immobs,Holds and Knockbacks so if the first attempt failed...continued attempts may eventually succeed. This wouldn't be a Power Pool for just any character since being a sitting target would only be viable to the most sturdiest of characters (...clearly not the best idea for 'squishies'...). Grapple could look just like Shocking Grasp, Hold could look just like a more aggressive version of the Hug emote with the effected party looking like they were under the effects of Plant Control's Strangler, and Throw look like Hurl except instead of stooping down and ripping up a chunk of concrete - they pick up their target... :D

- Throw I seeing the most difficult to emulate because it would require an actual reproduction of said target avatar (...including size...), so it would have to be a really dynamic script even if all that was being accomplished was to show the target being picked up. In game, the character would only be teleported to target location and given a Knock Down status effect and appropriate damage. If Throw was resisted, then the same consequences applied as per Grapple/Hold - endurance loss, so when in doubt...pick up the minion, not the boss (...or at least Fatigue your target enough so that such an attempt is viable...). Resisting Throw would be based on the target's resistance to Knockback, not Teleport Other, making nimble characters who have Acrobatics difficult to Throw.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Allow me to once again praise

Allow me to once again praise Tabula Rasa for its gameplay system, where you had a target reticle in the center of your screen, and wherever that pointed, that's where your bullets went, so ... third person shooter. BUT you also had the option of Tab Locking a target once you'd put your reticle onto them, and wherever that target went on screen after that, that's where your shots would go. This gave you a "better of both worlds" combination where you had a "twitch" gameplay style for acquiring targets but then once those targets were acquired, you could "lock on" to them and not have to "follow" them with your weapon in order to keep hitting them, thereby mitigating a substantial amount of potential lag issues. Furthermore, since you didn't even have to shoot in order to Tab Lock, it was perfectly possible to do all of your necessary target acquisition prior to drawing aggro. The result was a "player engaging" style of gameplay that required active participation from the player and couldn't be easily reduced down to simple Tab+Keybind(s) chaining to attack everything.

TERA doesn't exactly have something akin to this, but it's somewhat close, with its Active Combat System. Having played TERA, I very much enjoyed the idea that attacks actually "go" to the places they're animated to go to, as opposed to skipping and spinning through walls and obstacles in order to reach you. The entire concept of the Warrior in that game is predicated upon Player Skill to NOT BE where the Damage lands (by getting out of the way and staying mobile). It makes for an incredibly dynamic combat system that keeps you constantly engaged, because it is YOU THE PLAYER who determines and decides how much damage your character takes based on where you position yourself. That said, it's also a system that is HIGHLY susceptible to lag (not to mention, the dreaded Lost Connection to Mapserver type issue) and relatively "unforgiving" of errors on the part of the player (whether forced or unforced). That said, there may be SOME merits of incorporating a few elements of this sort of gameplay into City of Titans, particularly if angling for more of a "hybrid" experience like Tabula Rasa offered.

Imagine for instance what it would be like if all Sniper and "Assassin Strike" type Powers were run on a purely Active Combat basis without the benefits of Tab Locking? It would mean that positioning and "aiming" of those powers would fall completely onto the Player, who would be responsible for what those Powers hit (or miss). To be clear about what I'm thinking of here, those specific types of powers wouldn't "shut off" a Tab Lock, but instead would "ignore" a Tab Lock ... meaning you could Snipe or "Assassin Strike" a target other than the one you've got Tab Locked at the time (which would also make it possible to miss completely if you're not paying attention). The basic notion behind this idea is that when using these kinds of "alpha strike" sorts of Powers, you don't get any of the benefits of the "power steering" offered by Tab Locking.

Friendly Fire that "isn't friendly" rules would prevent this kind of thing from turning into a Griefing opportunity, of course.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Insatiable
Insatiable's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/25/2013 - 10:32
I am curious how the combat

I am curious how the combat approach Wildstar is trying plays out. I have only seen videos, but it feels like an interesting balance between action combat and cooldown combat. I am so-so on the dodge feature in games, but GW2 has done a decent way of telegraphing the big hits to allow for dodging.

Honestly, I and many of the players I knew, liked CoH's simplicity in combat. You could have fun without the pressure of action combat, which can turn away many casual players.

"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Insatiable wrote:
Insatiable wrote:

I and many of the players I knew, liked CoH's simplicity in combat. You could have fun without the pressure of action combat, which can turn away many casual players.

Same here. Given that -- no matter how cool the icing -- the majority of the cake in a game like this is combat, and given that we're trying to recreate the "feel" of CoX, I think any major changes to the combat system would violate the primary goal of the whole project.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Insatiable wrote:
I and many of the players I knew, liked CoH's simplicity in combat. You could have fun without the pressure of action combat, which can turn away many casual players.

Same here. Given that -- no matter how cool the icing -- the majority of the cake in a game like this is combat, and given that we're trying to recreate the "feel" of CoX, I think any major changes to the combat system would violate the primary goal of the whole project.

For me, the "feel" of city of heroes combat was slower paced than most other MMO's out there. But that doesn't mean that it would appeal to the more "casual" crowd automatically.

The annoying thing for me about the CoX combat, although it is also once of the *few* MMO's out there that did it, was Rooting.

Hated it, especially once I started trying out other MMO's afterwards. Those combat systems seemed more fluid in terms of making sure that I was able to be mobile.

Combat in CoX might have *felt* faster, but I think that might well be due to how few attacks the mobs could die in.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Agreed on the Every Attack

Agreed on the Every Attack Power Roots You thing, if only because it essentially mandated that all combat happen in a Stand And Deliver format. Combat was an essentially IMMOBILE thing. Mobility was only needed when moving from one Mob to the next, or when your Target moved (or got Knocked Back). The rest of the time it was just "sit here" and spam attacks. You could Move -OR- you could DPS ... but you couldn't do both (outside of things like Shield Charge and its ilk). Tended to make the battles rather ... static.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Hmmm...interesting... You

Hmmm...interesting... You folks have got me thinking...

Rooting never bugged me (and my main was a blaster who had to fight and run a LOT to stay alive), but I can understand that it did bug a lot of people.

What I'm now wondering is whether the "static"ness of CoX combat (whether because of rooting or something else) was actually an essential piece of its appeal, and why I didn't like combat in most other MMOs. I'm really curious now what part rooting actually had to play in making CoX so appealing to some/few/many of us. I don't want to speak for anyone else: we'd need a poll and someone to better define the mechanics to be sure. (If only I could actually PLAY CoX again to analyse it better...)

What I'm certain I don't want is a change to a dodging/blocking/turn-to-aim type game. I get that kind of stuff from my FPS games and relied on CoX for something different. My biggest fear regarding this project is that I'll love the world, but combat will be changed enough from the CoX model that I won't want to play in it. The worth of the contribution I made on Kickstarter is teetering on this single point.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Once PvP got introduced in

Once PvP got introduced in Issue 4, and the tactic of "Jousting" became commonplace, CoH pretty much HAD TO move towards a Root To Attack model of combat and stick with it, even if they would have preferred to do something else. Travel Power Suppression became part of that regime to "answer" the clever ways that PvPers learned to give themselves advantages in combat against other players, which then got back-ported into the PvE gameplay as well for consistency.

I will freely admit that the City of Heroes UI when it came to Target Selection and the like was ... easy to play ... to the point of being boring. When it first came out (prior to WoW!) it was fantastic, but over the years there have been other methods and systems that have surpassed it in terms of how "engaging" the Tab Lock/Click To Target system really was. I mean that in the sense that the City of Heroes system for this was so easy as to be what I would consider "lazy" in the proper sense of the term, where it just really didn't take a whole lot of "effort" on the part of the Player to be able to select targets and engage them. In a lot of ways, that could be pretty relaxing ... since as a Player you didn't have to "work" to pick out your targets (unless you REALLY wanted to get specific) ... but at the same time it was also very limiting because there really wasn't any "challenge" involved in it. I'm not talking "challenge" in any sense beyond that of "mini-game" here.

When I started playing Tabula Rasa though, with it's Aim Camera PLUS Tab Lock To Sticky Target system of target selection ... it was just such a phenomenal leap FORWARDS that I could barely believe it! The game played like a mixture of a Third Person Shooter AND City of Heroes at the same time, because it WAS a hybrid! The Tab Lock system used in Tabula Rasa took care of a LOT of the workload of targeting ... but not ALL of it. To me it felt like taking the training wheels (CoH system) off a bicycle (TR system), creating a much more enjoyable playing experience because the game pulled my focus and attention into the game for hours on end, rather than letting me "play lazy" using keybinds that essentially amounted to "targetenemynear$$follow" for my melee type characters, and which dropped the "$$follow" ending on my ranged type characters.

For me, the hybrid system used by Tabula Rasa both was, and still remains, my ideal Target Selection scheme in ANY game that I have played. It rewarded attentiveness to your surroundings, situational awareness, quick thinking and fast decision making ... while at the same time being more "forgiving" in the sense that once a criteria of aiming the camera "correctly" at a target was accomplished, you could then Tab Lock onto it and command the client+server to act as an Aim Bot for you, freeing you up (as a Player) to keep track of more than one thing at a time while you continued to attack your target. It was a very "Lag Forgiving" sort of system, and one that really just never got old to play, because there was a measure of Player Skill involved ... while with the CoH Tab Target Lock system, there really wasn't any Player Skill involved AT ALL (except very rarely).


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Consultant
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 08/22/2013 - 03:14
I agree with Cinnder. I don

I agree with Cinnder. I don't want dodging/blocking/turn to aim, and i also don't want to have to charge my endurance with attacks like in CO. The relatively simple combat we had in CoX allowed me (at least) to be thinking about other elements of the game, and to understand the game more quickly.

Restoring what we lost does center on this point.

Wanders
Wanders's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 20:12
Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Rooting never bugged me (and my main was a blaster who had to fight and run a LOT to stay alive), but I can understand that it did bug a lot of people.
What I'm now wondering is whether the "static"ness of CoX combat (whether because of rooting or something else) was actually an essential piece of its appeal, and why I didn't like combat in most other MMOs. I'm really curious now what part rooting actually had to play in making CoX so appealing to some/few/many of us. I don't want to speak for anyone else: we'd need a poll and someone to better define the mechanics to be sure. (If only I could actually PLAY CoX again to analyse it better...)

I will say that rooting was frustrating to me in CoH, but my favorite character was a broadsword scrapper, so that may be part of what put me in harms way. :) For CO they decoupled the upper- and lower-body animations, which allowed them to actually decide if they wanted to root during a particular action or not. That aspect of the game felt a lot better to me. It is just the feels we are going for here, imo... unless they made additional (and more difficult) changes, it wouldn't change the nature of the attacks being "locked on" (we have probably all seen the 'homing missile' way that our attacks would still hit targets which had moved after the attack was "officially" committed). So it isn't so much a gameplay change as a perception change and, imo, it is a positive one. The one way it can be a gameplay change is that it will help you move out of targeted areas or DoT areas more easily. I certainly wouldn't mind that, since I found rooting frustrating when fighting in situations like that, especially when I was in melee range (which I usually was, regardless of AT >_>).

Quote:

What I'm certain I don't want is a change to a dodging/blocking/turn-to-aim type game.

I haven't seen anything from the MWM folks that would even give me the impression that they were considering that, much less that they were planning on it.

Quote:

The worth of the contribution I made on Kickstarter is teetering on this single point.

Yeah, a Kickstarter pledge is not like buying something... it is mostly just supporting its chance at existing. I think we all (or, at least, most of us) hope they can hit the "spiritual successor" design goals they have stated. Your KS contribution at least helped make that possible, but your thoughtful participation in the discussions that follow can also be a contribution to that. I can say, in my case, I am very encouraged by what I have seen from MWM so far.

Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Wanders wrote:
Wanders wrote:

I am very encouraged by what I have seen from MWM so far.

Yeah, I have to say I agree. And on this particular topic, nothing encourages me more than the following quote from the Escapist Magazine interview. I can deal with some experimentation as things progress, as long as the core remains the same.

----

What form will basic gameplay take? Click-to-attack, target and autoattack?

Chris Hare: I know people always want to hear about new things, but we've done some fairly extensive surveys, and the part that surprised me the most was that people didn't want very much change in the basic gameplay. It worked, it worked well. Even blocking and dodging was viewed as a very negative thing. There is a positive side to this, though. City of Heroes was always family friendly, to the point where people could play with their kids on their lap, and we're aiming to be the same way.

At launch, we're not looking at making any huge changes. But as we grow and roll out new power sets, we're going to play with things a little, and see how our players like them. We're going to have a lot of flexibility in this game, we're building things so we can change them with ease, and we're going to leverage that in every way we can.

Read more at http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/10706-Resurrecting-the-Superhero-MMO-City-of-Titans-Q-A#DKTvdY0lKEfPRYt5.99

Spurn all ye kindle.

InOnePiece
InOnePiece's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/07/2013 - 20:09
Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

I don't want dodging/blocking/turn to aim, and i also don't want to have to charge my endurance with attacks like in CO.

Agreed 100%. Sounds like MWM is on the same page with us on the first point at least, which is good. I'm one of those people who will be playing with a kid on his lap, plus I'm old and crotchety, so please keep it simple. :)

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
I want trap powers… not

I want trap powers… not things that you click and activate on the map but casts that you drop and are activated when enemies get to them. Champions Online had Particle Mine in the gadgeteering tree.. I want a mine mad of Mez points.. get too close and BOOM you're braindead.

What I DON'T like however is the system in Guild Wars 2 where you set a field on the map and it has effects. As a controller user I don't want to have to click anywhere on the map.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Sailboat
Sailboat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/30/2013 - 08:30
The Secret World has "Ground

The Secret World has "Ground-targeted AoEs" that require you to place a circle on the ground...but there's a keyboard command that places that circle under the foe you currently have tab-targeted...AND you can alter the UI to do that ALL the time for GTAoEs, OR on a case-by-case basis. That seems like a good compromise

Captain of Phoenix Rising

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Sailboat wrote:
Sailboat wrote:

The Secret World has "Ground-targeted AoEs" that require you to place a circle on the ground...but there's a keyboard command that places that circle under the foe you currently have tab-targeted...AND you can alter the UI to do that ALL the time for GTAoEs, OR on a case-by-case basis. That seems like a good compromise

I disagree.. having the ability to attack the ground and hurt players takes away from the "perception" mechanic of placates and negates the entire purpose of Threat in tab targeting.

If you're placated or confused or blinded.. or whatever and cannot target me then that mechanic goes away as soon as you just allow players to click where you stand anyway.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Sailboat wrote:
The Secret World has "Ground-targeted AoEs" that require you to place a circle on the ground...but there's a keyboard command that places that circle under the foe you currently have tab-targeted...AND you can alter the UI to do that ALL the time for GTAoEs, OR on a case-by-case basis. That seems like a good compromise

I disagree.. having the ability to attack the ground and hurt players takes away from the "perception" mechanic of placates and negates the entire purpose of Threat in tab targeting.
If you're placated or confused or blinded.. or whatever and cannot target me then that mechanic goes away as soon as you just allow players to click where you stand anyway.

Just wondering, but how did ground targetted AoE's interact with Placate then (Bonfire for example)? I couldn't place it where you were with my mouse?

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Just wondering, but how did ground targetted AoE's interact with Placate then (Bonfire for example)? I couldn't place it where you were with my mouse?

No interaction of any kind. Placate only prevented you from target locking a specific $Target ... it didn't stop you from targeting the Ground.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

If you're placated or confused or blinded.. or whatever and cannot target me then that mechanic goes away as soon as you just allow players to click where you stand anyway.

And this is why I am actually *digging* how Wildstar is dealing with blindness being afflicted upon you...

The screen goes dark top and bottom, leaving you with just a very *thin* strip horizontally, that you can semi see through.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Hmmm ... I wonder if

Hmmm ... I wonder if something like that could be used for Sleeps and Holds in City of Titans.

If Blinded, limit the field of vision like you describe how Wildstar does it.
If Slept, blur everything in the field of vision so that everything is badly out of focus and hard to interpret what is what beyond fuzzy blobs of color and light.
If Held, have the client deliberately reduce the FPS of what is being sent to screen such that as Hold Status increases the Frame Rate Refresh drops until is becomes "frozen" because you're being Held.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
captkurt
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 3 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 22:42
I think that with Held...you

I think that with Held...you could leave the interface as is, or maybe only blurred slightly. Presumably you are not mentally incapacitated. However with blind, sleep, stun and such you could change the interface.

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
While i fully intend on

While i fully intend on playing Wildstar.. I do not think that their version of player immersion is something I would fully appreciate in City of Titans.

I keep my vote on tab targeting.

- -

The system again doesn't have to be binary.. target objects/persons next to the player you want to hit and shoot an AoE should still work.. just not still targeting said player.

- -

This is a good time to reiterate my hopes for tiered debuffs for mez. One debuffing character response and another debuffing character perception, based of course on a qualitative (Mez Points vs Mez Resistance) system.

Movement Speed < Attack Speed < Fully Incapacitated
and
Sight Range < Placate Chance (Maybe Placate AoE Range?) < Fully Confused

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Sailboat
Sailboat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/30/2013 - 08:30
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

The system again doesn't have to be binary.. target objects/persons next to the player you want to hit and shoot an AoE should still work.. just not still targeting said player.

I'm not clear why being able to target the ground near a player (thus hitting him with an AoE) is "bad" but targeting an object next to him (thus hitting him with an AoE) is "good."

Captain of Phoenix Rising

jmurray8245
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 11/18/2013 - 09:52
with all this freezing,

with all this freezing, bluring, and shrinking the screen i think people are forgeting that not everyone has the latest and greatest PCs/Laptops. This kind of stuff i believe would create a lot of lag for people not to mention the server. I know for one this would damn near kill my computer

Smoker6- Fire/Ice blaster-Protector
Avenger of Heroes- Broadsword/inv Scrapper- Protector

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
jmurray8245 wrote:
jmurray8245 wrote:

with all this freezing, bluring, and shrinking the screen i think people are forgeting that not everyone has the latest and greatest PCs/Laptops. This kind of stuff i believe would create a lot of lag for people not to mention the server. I know for one this would damn near kill my computer

If you are worried about *these* effects having problems running on your PC, then I would be worried about the game running on your system full stop, especially once you get a quite a few people in the area using their abilities.

It is not worth throwing an idea out to see how it runs...

Hell, CoX ran on my old laptop.

at 4-7 fps with everything turned off/on minimum settings. And I wasn't even in combat. I was just travelling through the city (atlas park actually, with few players in the area).

The thing is, is that an *idea* doesn't need to be shot down because "I cannot run it" or "some people cannot run it"... sometimes you just need to come around with an alternative route to achieve the same goal.

I can almost guarantee that there are going to be some people who *cannot* play CoT, when they could play CoX (or at least visit some area's in CoX... some zones were worse than others).

It all depends as to what the specifications for the game are... as to what can and cannot be used.

Hell, if you are worried that this effect will cause problems for people, then there *should* be an option as well to disable *all* effects (aura's, particle effects, have simplistic models for combat pets, purely cosmetic effects on costumes (so no glows and the like), because THOSE will have more problems for players than you think.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

jmurray8245
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 11 months ago
Joined: 11/18/2013 - 09:52
All i was trying to get

All i was trying to get across was all the little extras people are talking about will add up and increase the possiblilty of major lag. I like the ideas dont get me wrong, im just trying to take the playable experice into account. visuals are great but if your internet/comp crap out when you go into combat who will pay to play?

Smoker6- Fire/Ice blaster-Protector
Avenger of Heroes- Broadsword/inv Scrapper- Protector

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
jmurray8245 wrote:
jmurray8245 wrote:

All i was trying to get across was all the little extras people are talking about will add up and increase the possiblilty of major lag. I like the ideas dont get me wrong, im just trying to take the playable experice into account. visuals are great but if your internet/comp crap out when you go into combat who will pay to play?

All depends as to how these effects are coded in the first place. Some of them will add a slight increase in GPU load, others could actually *drop* the GPU load whilst they are running. It all depends as to how they are put together.

Hell, CoX could be pretty demanding, if anything because of the LARGE number of effects that each player could have running on each character (aura's, costume parts.... and then there was the combat effects as well).

If these effects can be coded in to run on their "low spec machine", then there is nothing to worry about. But it is an avenue to look down though in the first place.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Sailboat wrote:
Sailboat wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
The system again doesn't have to be binary.. target objects/persons next to the player you want to hit and shoot an AoE should still work.. just not still targeting said player.

I'm not clear why being able to target the ground near a player (thus hitting him with an AoE) is "bad" but targeting an object next to him (thus hitting him with an AoE) is "good."

Well the Placate effect would be a PBAoE effect. If you only had 1meter of placate then you would only be making yourself not perceivable as a threat. It's the same as a psychic forgetting to cover their footstep sounds etc.. The system is not binary.. the magnitude of the effect is determined by the amount of points..

If you get a large AoE Placate (With decidedly more Mez points) it would be much harder to target you if your effect was 50 meters instead of 5..

JayBezz wrote:

I know the game hasn't set out Baselines but I expect that they will as soon as they start powers creation process. The linked article has some great references for how to set systems baselines.. it also comes with a cautionary tale about how DANGEROUS it is to change those baselines because the rest of your system will fall out of balance. *Cough* Champions Online */cough*
If you want part two of the system designer's dev diary it can be found HERE

1) That article is indicative of Champions Online's original combat system (which I have to say.. the mechanics were SOLID at first but it did a "energy builder", stats, and a leveling system. If I had a choice I would get rid of these three mechanics and create many of the same baselines.

2) I wish there was some way to show your experience without a levels system. I hate being "Level 4" just because I'm still learning to use new abilities and ways to use my powers. I would much rather have some kind of XP bar that gave total XP and once at endgame it just goes away. But alas.. getting rid of power levels has been discussed since MMORPGs came about and no one has seemed to come up with a better solution.

3) I think mix/matching offenses/defenses has caused a major problem in CO. What do players think about needing to CHOOSE your type of defense more succinctly? My character is immune to debuffs for instance. She would also be rather resistant to mental damage. For example:

What if Each character gets to choose 2: +Dodge, +HP, +FlatMitigation, +Antidebuff, +Shield (forcefield), +DamageTypeResist (much higher than flat mitigation).

This way every character gets to choose (and grow) their TYPE of resistance (levels based on role and powers). But they then are guaranteed to have weaknesses built into them.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Sailboat
Sailboat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/30/2013 - 08:30
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Sailboat wrote:
JayBezz wrote:
The system again doesn't have to be binary.. target objects/persons next to the player you want to hit and shoot an AoE should still work.. just not still targeting said player.

I'm not clear why being able to target the ground near a player (thus hitting him with an AoE) is "bad" but targeting an object next to him (thus hitting him with an AoE) is "good."

Well the Placate effect would be a PBAoE effect. If you only had 1meter of placate then you would only be making yourself not perceivable as a threat. It's the same as a psychic forgetting to cover their footstep sounds etc.. The system is not binary.. the magnitude of the effect is determined by the amount of points..
If you get a large AoE Placate (With decidedly more Mez points) it would be much harder to target you if your effect was 50 meters instead of 5..

What does that have to do with shooting a chair?

Captain of Phoenix Rising

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
You can't target the chair

You can't target the chair (or anything destructible) inside the placate effect. If the radius is wider than your AoE Effect then you can't target anything close enough to hit the placate caster.

Just an idea.

Point is.. Keep Tab Targeting. Keep Destructible Targeting. Lose Map Targeting (of attacks and buffs.. still kind of iffy whether or not i want it for teleport/movement powers)

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Sailboat
Sailboat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/30/2013 - 08:30
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

You can't target the chair (or anything destructible) inside the placate effect. If the radius is wider than your AoE Effect then you can't target anything close enough to hit the placate caster.
Just an idea.
Point is.. Keep Tab Targeting. Keep Destructible Targeting. Lose Map Targeting (of attacks and buffs.. still kind of iffy whether or not i want it for teleport/movement powers)

Are you saying you can't target the chair but you CAN target the ground? Why?

Captain of Phoenix Rising

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Opposite.. you can not target

Opposite.. you can not target the map itself (ground/walls etc) but you can target destructible objects (lamp posts, barrels, chairs, boxes, etc).

Targeting the ground and walls takes away from tab targeting.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Opposite.. you can not target the map itself (ground/walls etc) but you can target destructible objects (lamp posts, barrels, chairs, boxes, etc).
Targeting the ground and walls takes away from tab targeting.

Congratulations! You have just eliminated Teleport as a functional Travel Power!


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Opposite.. you can not target the map itself (ground/walls etc) but you can target destructible objects (lamp posts, barrels, chairs, boxes, etc).
Targeting the ground and walls takes away from tab targeting.

Congratulations! You have just eliminated Teleport as a functional Travel Power!

JayBezz wrote:

Point is.. Keep Tab Targeting. Keep Destructible Targeting. Lose Map Targeting (of attacks and buffs.. still kind of iffy whether or not i want it for teleport/movement powers)

I'm still torn on teleport as I posted above. It's a hard travel power to really pin down. I love Mesmer's in GW2.. but that game is based alot on "Map Targeting".. I am fine with Map targeting on Teleport .. Maybe even grappling .. I just don't want it on combat abilities.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Actually, on second thought,

Actually, on second thought, JayBezz ... you've also managed to eliminate a significant portion of the Traps powerset and possibly some important options for any kind of Gadgeteering.

Specifically I'm thinking of Powers like Caltrops, Disruption Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow, Rain of Arrows (or indeed, any of the "Rain" Powers, really), Ignite, and depending on how stringently you define this, potentially even Powers such as Trip Mine and of all things, Time Bomb (although these last two are admittedly a bit of a stretch).

My point being, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about removing options from how things can "work" in the game.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Actually, on second thought, JayBezz ... you've also managed to eliminate a significant portion of the Traps powerset and possibly some important options for any kind of Gadgeteering.
Specifically I'm thinking of Powers like Caltrops, Disruption Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow, Rain of Arrows (or indeed, any of the "Rain" Powers, really), Ignite, and depending on how stringently you define this, potentially even Powers such as Trip Mine and of all things, Time Bomb (although these last two are admittedly a bit of a stretch).
My point being, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about removing options from how things can "work" in the game.

1) Traps can still be set from point blank.
2) No reason you can't target ranged enemies to activate these traps as well.

Tab Targeting Perception powers and Map Targeting don't mix unless you create the players as invisible on the individual client (And not invisible on the server). This feat is too difficult to program on most servers because you're targeting a specific character (and their FX, pets, etc) as no longer visible only on your (the affected player's) system.

But what about players who WANT to be visible (not stealthed) but not targetable (placated) to only specific enemies (debuffed to only one player's perception).

This is easy on tab targeting systems. You can't target them because they are marked (on the server) as placated to you.. easy binary flag. But if you can just mark the map where they're standing to hit them anyhow.. what's the point of placating them in the first place? They can still fully attack you.

Map targeting works on systems like Wildstar where your attacks have trajectory (a system I love). This system of trajectory and dodge however is not particularly in step with City of Heroes. But it's a real binary choice.. Allowing both still means placate obsolescence which I am advocating against (because I fully intent to be using placates to remain hard to target)

As a crowd controller I expect to have low HP and low DPS. Keeping low threat, being hard to target, and keeping enemies debuffed is my means of defense.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Actually, on second thought, JayBezz ... you've also managed to eliminate a significant portion of the Traps powerset and possibly some important options for any kind of Gadgeteering.
Specifically I'm thinking of Powers like Caltrops, Disruption Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow, Rain of Arrows (or indeed, any of the "Rain" Powers, really), Ignite, and depending on how stringently you define this, potentially even Powers such as Trip Mine and of all things, Time Bomb (although these last two are admittedly a bit of a stretch).
My point being, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about removing options from how things can "work" in the game.

Not really. Gadgets can just be planted at your feet.

That said, CoH had plenty of target the ground powers, so doubtful CoT will get rid of that idea.

Northie
Northie's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/03/2013 - 07:17
I personally like GW2 style

I personally like GW2 style combat which is very casual friendly while still being active. However this is almost certainly not something CoT will have. I asked about a few things on previous forums and there's very strong possibility following elements do not exist in the game:

Blocking: No active block powers like in CO but undecided on powers like GW2 Aegis which blocks certain amount of attacks before expiring
Blinds: Unlikely to have blinds (that is a power that makes you automatically miss next attack, accuracy debuffs still possible but uncertain what form it takes)
Interrupts: No powers that interrupt powers in a reactionary manner (this means no reactionary instant "spike interrupts" that cancel a power that is being cast)
Dodging: Extremely unlikely. It's more likely to have CoH style toggle style defenses for avoidance as well
Power chains: No power chains like in GW2 (fire blast --> fire blast --> fireball; essentially powers chaining to each other through a single key)
Charge/channeled powers: Unlikely to have powers that require you to hold key (might still have channeled powers but you merely hit the key once to start it)

I think the most disappointing thing is about the lack of power chains. I dislike having gazillion powers that essentially do the same thing cluttering my hotkeys. I'm comfortably able to reach roughly ten active powers with keys 1-5 and ALT+1-5. Actually the optimal range for me is 1-4 and ALT+1-4. I hope we can create macro for those at least. Seeing that a lot of elements I enjoy are gone I'd like to see at least following elements:

Rooting: I hate rooting a lot. Nearly all powers should not root.
Channels: simply clicking key will start the channel. No need to hold the key. Moving and mez interrupts.
Activation: most powers should activate fast but nukes and snipes should have long buildup
Basic attacks: all sets should have attacks that are recharge and endurance free --> recharge is animation
Recharge: should exists to so powers can't be spammed nonstop
Endurance: should exist as damage scale bar instead of complete showstopper if it exists at all
GTAoE: should exist as it allows me to lays down patches to the spot where enemy is moving
Hard mez: total lockdown mez should be few and breakabe by player's own actions
Conditions: conditions for power synergy should exist as should condition cleanse powers
Overlap: power overlap should not exist within set.

Note: I don't care how you solve the power overlap it but if I'm essentially forced to pick ice bolt, ice blast, bitter ice blast to have viable chain where only difference is damage then something is wrong. I can tolerate it if I have the chain built within first hour of gameplay. Anything that forces me to have breaks in combat because of powers themselves is completely unacceptable. I hated CoH low levels when you spent more time waiting for powers to recharge than actually using them. I refuse play a game that has me twiddling my thumbs rather than actually playing it.

About powersets

I personally don't like too specified sets that CoH had. Why can't we have more well rounded ranged sets than simply having ice blast and ice control and then have what amounts as archtypes in CoT to provide bonus to specifics. However since this is not the approach I'd rather see for example ranged damage focused ice set to look something like this. Yes. I included a power chain there but as mentioned this is something *I* would like to see:

Note: I picked eight powers as somewhere I read the sets are supposed to have eight powers.
Note: Ice attacks may inflict two conditions:
chilled: slows movement and recharge/casting time
vulnerability/frailty: target becomes vulnerable to first strike style abilities and majorly reduces resistances against all damage

Ice blast (ranged chain, no recharge): 1st moderate ranged cold, 2nd moderate ranged cold, 3rd high ranged cold and chill
Cone of frost (short cone AoE, short recharge): deal moderate damage and chill targets within the cone
Freezing blast (ranged damage/mez, moderate recharge): inflict moderate cold damage or high damage to chilled target and immobilize a chilled target briefly
Ice burst (ranged GTAoE, moderate recharge): inflict moderate cold damage to targets wihin area; targets ground
Frost Focus (self buff, long recharge): greatly improve your cold damage for a short while; all attacks inflicting cold damage also chill target
Ice lance (ranged sniper attack): extremely long range, slow activating high damage attack
Hypothermia (ranged debuff, moderate recharge): inflict chill and vulnerability on target
Blizzard (channeled anchored AoE): channel a storm of icy shard and winds that chill and damage targets

I'm strongly supportive of design that gives you the essentials first. Essentials fill following roles:

they allow you to build effective chain so your fingers always have something to do so they are on low recharge
they are the powers everyone automatically wants to pick
Essentials in above mentioned set are ice blast chain, cone of frost (for chill), freezing blast (for high damage) and ice burst (for aoe damage)

Then come the things that are situational and somewhat interchangeable but still desireable

They improve damage either through buffs or debuffs
They are situationally useful such as snipes, stealth strikes and nukes
These are frost focus (self damage buff), hypothermia (damage for all through vulnerability), ice lance (snipe) and blizzard (channeled nuke)

I'm also strongly supportive of design which allows powers to exploit other powers and builds natural chains so you don't just automatically hit the power when it becomes available. This gives the set an identity but as mentioned conditions would allow also others to exploit these. This creates power synergy within the set itself but also between different ATs (I keep forgetting what they are called in CoT). It also adds a strategic element since you are not going to just be spamming your attacks nonstop. You have to actually pay at least a little bit of attention to what debuffs enemies have.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
If the devs were to confirm

If the devs were to confirm that your first list of 6 are definitely *not* going to be in CoT, I would be a happy camper. Wait, actually I have nothing against the concept of a power chain as you describe it; couldn't you do that in CoH via a macro?

I do like much of your wish list of 10 (though I never really minded rooting). I especially want Recharge to prevent spamming -- though doesn't your Basic Attacks command contradict that? I hated the basic attack in CO because it was so spammy. As for End, I've been a long proponent of keeping it the same as it was in CoX, but if what you're saying is that being out of End would allow you to keep attacking but severely reduce the effect of powers, I'm intrigued.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Cinnder][quote wrote:
Cinnder][quote wrote:

As for End, I've been a long proponent of keeping it the same as it was in CoX, but if what you're saying is that being out of End would allow you to keep attacking but severely reduce the effect of powers, I'm intrigued.

I am going to be pulling out the "Wildstar has something similar" card here because for their Spellslinger class (think Nightcrawler with guns) has their class mechanic like this.

They have a resource that regenerates over time, that they can choose to "turn on" as and then all of their abilities (heals/damage/crowd controls) get pumped up in one form or another. Their *base* DPS is still quite high (they are DPS/Healers), but by using this advantage they can pump it up even higher.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
I never understood people's

I never understood people's complaints about CoH and it's energy management. I thought part of the fun was in trying to build to sustain it. No different than pretty much most of the other games. The only thing that would've made it better, is if CoH had multiple routes to it, besides "Grab Stamina" for sure.

jag40
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 2 months ago
Joined: 09/17/2013 - 10:51
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I never understood people's complaints about CoH and it's energy management. I thought part of the fun was in trying to build to sustain it. No different than pretty much most of the other games. The only thing that would've made it better, is if CoH had multiple routes to it, besides "Grab Stamina" for sure.

Remember what is fun to one may be irritating and not so fun to another.

Me personally, I didn't mind the end management part it was ok, a bit strange in hero being easily more winded than a 660lb fat body trying to climb stairs after two or three swings, but it was ok. Otherr may find it part of the fun others may find it something they don't enjoy much.

Like I'm sure there are aspects of things I have/had the time of my life doing while you may find it "WTF is this crap?" and vice versa.

Comicsluvr
Comicsluvr's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/07/2013 - 03:39
As to End management: Part of

As to End management: Part of the reason many disliked it was that it was an uneven form of balance control. Dark Armor was an underachiever for a long time because it required huge End investments to work. Add to this the fact that it had no -KB and it became unpopular. Then Inventions came out and suddenly you had End procs, Recharge buffs and other things for +End gain. Suddenly the set is not just viable but a powerhouse. On th flip side most of my Blasters never lacked for End. We need to try and make sure that End effects are kept even across the ATs and Powersets.

As to ground targeting...Here we go again with the whole 'I didn't like this so we shouldn't have it' routine! As Red posted, a large number of powers worked on the idea of being able to put the patch where you wanted it. If YOU don't want ground targeting...don't take powers that use it.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Arch_Light
Arch_Light's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 10:15
Krazy_ivan wrote:
Krazy_ivan wrote:

RAD brought up a question about controls and I wanted to elaborate a bit. The one thing I really liked about COH was the gui interface. you could move powertrays around or the chat window which really made things easier for me. I'm not a big fan of hitting the Fkeys to trigger a power or hitting a number keys to use an inspiration. I like to click powers off of a tray. Will there be powertrays and will I be able to move them around my screen? I know there are much more advanced keyboard gamers out there that have no trouble hitting keys without looking at the keyboard. Unfortunately I am not a skilled keyboard gamer, so I'm hoping that point and click gamers like myself will be able to stick with the format we have become comfortable with.

This.
I did the same thing and why COH was such a good fit. I was an Arrow key driver mouse clicker. I had friends who were "real gamers" with more gaming XP than me who told me i was doing it wrong but because of the great movement allowed in COH I could out 'drive"aka move in game. CO and DCUO just cannot come close in the control movement aspects. Marvel is D3 and is like super hero version of SIMS not even a contender.

As far as the "action" oriented games COH for me was more action oriented than these games. . CO has powers you can constantly use tap tap tap or hold to power up while cool at times for ranged combat it became boring after awhile. DCUO has CTS inducing game controller combo's.

COH did something that was subtle that I did not understand at the time. Yes you got a lot of powers to choose from instead of the action power of other games. But as i level up these other games the new powers are not fun or new. In DCUO and CO after the first few levels where you fill out your powers it feels ho hum. I am not excited to gain the next level because it does not feel like I made any improvement.

COH had recharge and END issues that most gripe about. But they now make a lot more sense to me having played DCUO and CO for some time now. COH had ways for bad guys to attack that made some hated (sappers) loved the feeling that certain foes needed special attention due to a type of attack or debuff you had to counter. Most of the time it could be hack and slash but you had to pay attention because not every group was council crushtacular. L40 up end drain and debuffs could be a real problem.

In COH I was always looking for the new power or slots in the others especially DCUO where you have to mine other power sets for tiny bonuses taking powers you do not want need or cannot use to get to benefits you want.

CO after awhile the new powers are not that exciting. COH was like a box of lego's you kept building on sure you had a few powers you had to take and at times you were spamming a few low damage attacks to fill a hole in your chain but creative slotting could make for some interesting effects. I really liked the constant building.

Hate the block mechanic in DCUO and Champions.

Arch_Light
Arch_Light's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 10:15
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Agreed on the Every Attack Power Roots You thing, if only because it essentially mandated that all combat happen in a Stand And Deliver format. Combat was an essentially IMMOBILE thing. Mobility was only needed when moving from one Mob to the next, or when your Target moved (or got Knocked Back). The rest of the time it was just "sit here" and spam attacks. You could Move -OR- you could DPS ... but you couldn't do both (outside of things like Shield Charge and its ilk). Tended to make the battles rather ... static.

While you could just stand there and be static moving and attacking was where it was the best. There were subtle benefits to movement. Making bad guys break off melee attacks and turn to face you. Jump away and activate a power that turns you to face the target and positioning for AOE cones etc. I planned for the animation root in my movement. You were rooted during animation I am sure with the tech improvements this could be fixed so you moved while animation happened. Movement in combat was huge for me in COH even with the animation rooting. CO and DCUO do not offer this kind of dynamic movement combat.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
I couldn't agree more with

I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here, Arch_Light.

Spurn all ye kindle.

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
I don't hate block, but think

I don't hate block, but think it should be reserved for Tanks and provide those tanks with added benefit (More energy, faster recharge whatever)

Crowd Control Enthusiast

GH
GH's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: 10/13/2013 - 08:49
Arch_Light wrote:
Arch_Light wrote:

CO and DCUO do not offer this kind of dynamic movement combat.

Well I've only just started playing CO again after years of not doing so and I seem to be able to move around pretty well during combat. I'm only playing one character atm so if I'm playing the only one that doesn't get rooted then fair enough but I doubt that.

Haven't played DCUO for too long, so can't remember what it's like there.

If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Agree with you Arc on the way

Agree with you Arc on the way CoH handled new powers.

I may not have always liked the animation, but CoH allowed me to plan for and have multiple attacks that I would use. This was usually 3-4 attacks for ST attacks, but I made use of them. In CO, I usually only need 1 attack for ST.

My main as basically 2 attacks...all other attacks are grabbed for purely concept reasons and when not just doing random teaming, but in something a bit more serious (big boss fight or just pressed for time) I'm using those 2 attacks.

I have one alt that uses more attacks, but that's just to make use of one of the few recharge intensive attacks in CO.

Loved CoH in how it did it's powers. I didn't like the lack of free form, but I did love how you worked towards (by you I mean some of us in the player base) seamless attack chain of best damages and working towards keeping it so the blue bar kept it sustainable!

captkurt
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 3 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 22:42
I like the block mechanic. I

I like the block mechanic. I would not want it limited to just certain ATs. On the otherhand, certain ATs should have thier block be much more poweful. You could easily give everyone a base X block DMG reduction...and give bonuses to certain ATs. Especially those without another mitigation mechanic. I see things like Force Field, any AT with a Shield power, the Shield powerset should have the best Block rating (but presumably they have less defense, mostly relying on block).

Hellbender91
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: 12/26/2013 - 09:54
but if someone is invisable

but if someone is invisable for example how else would you "try" to hit them other then throwing your powers randomly in hopes you may hit them same gos with the target ground aoe your trying to hit someone that you cant target and/or see

Moogoth!

Mr Tricksy
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2014 - 23:31
cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Twitch play becomes problematic for those with significant PING or Lag.

I actually like fps / twitchy play but this can be a huge issue.

Eg. I got into a few of the Wildstar beta weekends and enjoyed it. But then I saw one of the developers saying the end-game was literally unplayable with the kinds of latency we get in Australia. Videos of end-game gameplay showed it too, with telegraphs appearing and disappearing so quickly that we in Australia wouldn't see them until after being hit by attacks.

The best we could hope for is Australian servers but then how we do we play with all our overseas friends? In this light their combat is a lot less shiny.

I also think 'old-school' combat can be just be as engaging if there are realistic, strategic elements to it. This is one dimension on which I think CoH shone. The way powers could interact with each other to sometimes produce vastly different effects made combat a lot more interesting and varied, especially in groups.

If CoT can recapture that I'd be a happy monkey.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
As a side note: I have been

As a side note: I have been able to play Wildstar with a ping of around 300ms in the past.. above that, I found it hard to play properly... but then again 300-400ms was about the limit for CoX for me as well (

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
I've voiced the same concerns

I've voiced the same concerns as Mr. Tricksy.

Since MWM is going with a megaserver I presume that all the servers will be in North America. That means my latency will be in the 250ms to 300ms range, at best. I expect most of the rest of Europe will be in the same situation. I agree with Gangrel that such latency is really scratching at the upper limit of what still allows for enjoyable game play in games such as Tera or Wildstar. Perhaps server technology these days allows some kind of workaround so that even those of us who are outside North America can enjoy latency below 100ms. Otherwise I'd consider such technological limitations reason enough to avoid any kind of game play that requires reactions in the fractions of seconds.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

Scott Jackson
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 20:13
I tend to break any analysis

I tend to break any analysis of latency into two categories, "playable latency" and "survivable latency".

Most games, CoH included, become significantly less enjoyable ("playable") past the 300-500ms range. Survivability works out much differently - in a game like Neverwinter with frequent, high-damage telegraphed attacks from bosses and lieutenants spread throughout solo content, survivable latency is not much above that 300-500ms range. Even tank characters die quickly when their blocks and dodges get lost in dropped packets. When sent through a 500ms latency connection, a typical 1 second advance warning via red-circle-on-the-floor of that boss winding up for a big attack...appears to that tank's client 0.01 seconds too late to respond and send the block command back, even with superhuman reflexes. The server might as well have pre-calculated the club impacting the tank's head - a guaranteed hit every time, of every attack that the game's designers intended to be blocked manually - because they certainly didn't give that tank the HP or defense/resist/regen to survive it.

CoH (and to a certain extent CO) had the distinction of being very forgiving of packet loss and latency in comparison to newer, "more advanced" games in the "survivable latency" category. The sad reality is, even in the US, latency to Houston, Seattle, or Virginia is a big problem for a significant part of the population on a regular basis. Oversubscribed DSLAMs, rural areas stuck with wireless and satellite, the big telcom's sluggish upgrade to fiber...I fear this problem will persist for years. I'd rather err in favor of the player and stay with CoH's combat style, avoiding 90% of connection lag-deaths I've seen or felt in Neverwinter, until that player toggles some kind of "I want active combat features" switch.

When my connection is good, I enjoy FPS games and Neverwinter. But I can honestly report fewer than 10 connection lag deaths in CoH over 7+ years of very regular play (usually >40 hrs/week), and I played everything from tanks to meleeing blasters. When lag hit, there was almost always time to pop emergency powers and escape the fight. Compare that to over 10 lag deaths in Neverwinter in just the past month, one of which was on a tank. I'll leave it to everyone else to pick which gives a more satisfying game experience, and saves controllers and keyboards from an untimely end...heh.

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Unlike most games, City of

Unlike most games, City of Heroes, Champions Online and DCUO use the Z axis prominently. This means that in order to target you need to have tab-targeting because aiming on the X and Y axis will not target things flying or jumping.

As long as the tab targeting remains standard, then the latency of "twitch" becomes less of an issue because there is MUCH less need for positioning, timing, and aiming. This is why I could play Champions online and be mobile all while lounging in my seat.

There's room for more action without it becoming "twitch" .. frankly blocking is a crap mechanic (unless you're a tank) but that doesn't mean I need to be rooted or slowed arbitrarily. Those rules should be much more dynamic than in games past.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 weeks ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
HEY!!! I agree with Jay :).

HEY!!! I agree with Jay :).

Seriously, blocking is only fun if you don't have to use it much--just as a very occasional oh #$*& tactic. Having to constantly turtle is no fun for a tank or anyone else, and it sure as hell don't feel heroic. Feels like you're in so far over your head you have to go into fetal position. Feels... cowardly.

And it's a crap mechanic even for tanks. I usually tank, and holding down the shift (or wherever you map it) button and just taking your finger off occasionally to grab aggro like in DCUO is the worst tanking style ever.

+1 Blocking is a crap mechanic if it's more than just a minor game mechanic to get you out of a pinch occasionally. In that case, it can be fun and feel heroic, but I wouldn't miss it that much either.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I've voiced the same concerns as Mr. Tricksy.
Since MWM is going with a megaserver I presume that all the servers will be in North America. That means my latency will be in the 250ms to 300ms range, at best. I expect most of the rest of Europe will be in the same situation. I agree with Gangrel that such latency is really scratching at the upper limit of what still allows for enjoyable game play in games such as Tera or Wildstar. Perhaps server technology these days allows some kind of workaround so that even those of us who are outside North America can enjoy latency below 100ms. Otherwise I'd consider such technological limitations reason enough to avoid any kind of game play that requires reactions in the fractions of seconds.

As an idea, *right now* I am getting a ping of around 180ms in Wildstar, and that is to their US datacenter right now. And yes, I am in the EU... and most of the EU players are reporting the same latency (give or take a range).

When Wildstar goes live, they will have an EU datacenter as well, so my ping is likely to be in the 50-100ms range *crosses fingers*

And right now, Wildstar is indeed playable, unless of course you get server lag.... which can happen, and *DID* happen to me also early on in the life of CoX on the EU servers... at one point it was NOT uncommon to suddenly find yourself rubberbanded back 150meters dead due to attacks that you didn't even know happen...

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.