[url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/75527#comment-75527]Origin of cross-posting[/url] for this topic:
My thinking on Mezzing:
{ snippity }
Izzy, all that does is reinforce that Damage Is King without admitting that AoE Wears The Crown. Why? Because Damage is the ONLY way to "win" and everything else is just a delaying action to prevent "winning" in some form or fashion.
In other words, there needs to be alternative Defeat Conditions available beyond just HP reduced to zero.
For example ... what if the Defeat Conditions were defined as:
[list][*]Reduce HP to zero
[*]Hold for X seconds while caster takes zero damage
[*]Sleep for Y seconds while caster takes zero damage
[*]Confuse for Z seconds while target takes zero damage and caster takes zero damage[/list]
Note that Hold and Sleep were the two mez effects that prevented Actions from occurring. Likewise, Confuse prevented a Foe from attacking you, although they could still attack their former allies (hence the double no damage requirement).
Now you've suddenly got a situation where Mez Can Win without requiring Damage as the only possible Victory Condition. The presumption here is that if you've got a Foe either Held, Slept or Confused (and not fighting YOU) for X/Y seconds, then it ought to be "a piece of cake" to Arrest them in a more permanent fashion (ie. Defeat) ... provided you're not taking any damage during that time frame yourself (ie. there's no real Threat).
Set X, Y and Z to be whatever Playtesting tells you is reasonable (I'm thinking 30 to 60 seconds) and off you go.
Note that if you create a system like this, where Mez Can Defeat if it isn't interrupted, you can have "Controllers" who do very little damage ... because they're Defeating their Foes without applying DAMAGE to them. This would essentially be building game mechanical recognition that Perma Mez Can Win.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I really like this. And I'm a die-hard old-school scrank at heart. My mantra was "the best hold is defeated!"
But heroes defeat villains at least as often by means other than damage, ie: Spider-Man webbing up a foe, Xavier mezzing them, Superman or the Thing bending an I-beam around them, Wonder Woman using her Magic Lasso, Batman tying them upside down from a streetlight outside of the police department, etc.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
So ... since Jay Bezz asked for more discussion of this notion that Damage not be the only avenue to achieving Defeat, let's unpack this notion a bit further.
City of Heroes had numerous [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Status_Effect]Status Effects[/url], not all of which would be considered an appropriate means of achieving a Defeat of a Foe is sustained long enough. This listing includes:
[list][*]Hold
[*]Immobilize
[*]Disorient / Stun
[*]Sleep
[*]Confuse
[*]Fear
[*]Knock Up/Down/Back
[*]Repel
[*]Taunt
[*]Placate[/list]
From this list, the only ones that can plausibly be justified as having a Defeat Potential when "permanently" sustained would be:
[list][*]Hold
[*]Disorient / Stun
[*]Sleep
[*]Confuse[/list]
The reason for this is that Holds, Stuns and Sleep prevent a character from actively taking actions to attack or defend themselves. Under such conditions, in the absence of a diversion/distraction, there is no meaningful reason that a character affected by these statuses for long enough couldn't simply be neutralized by other means so as to "Defeat" them long term ... whether that be handcuffs and the back seat of a police cruiser parked outside or a Teleport To Jail spell. The important point is that these Status Effects turn their targets into Non-Combatants if they're sustained long enough.
Confuse is something of a wildcard in this assertion, because it doesn't "neutralize" the targets it affects ... instead it switches their loyalties (and motivations?). This means that absent a diversion/distraction, while a target is Confused they will not act against the caster of the Confuse power ... meaning they won't resist anything the Confuse caster tries to do to them. Whether that be use of chloroform and a gurney to wheel them away or a hyperspace pylon network sending them to long term storage doesn't matter, game mechanically. The important point is that Confuse turns targets to "your" side.
So something that I'd recommend if pursuing this option is to have a Power ... let's call it Containment, just for old time's sake ... that can only be cast upon a target once certain conditions (see above) have been met. Once the Mez Defeat Option has been met, you can cast Containment on the $Target and ... that Defeats them. So rather than have it be something that is triggered automagically once the Perma Mez Timer elapses into "long enough" on the $Target ... instead it is something that you have to *DO* to the $Target once you're free and clear and have met the necessary conditions. This would involve a time counter on the $Target and a similar time counter on the Caster, with a requirement that both time counters have reached certain minimum elapsed durations before use of Containment would be allowed on the $Target.
The beauty of this solution, in the City of Titans context, is that you'd be given a sort of Free Form appearance for the Containment Power in terms of how it animates and what FX and emotes it uses. So it could be everything from blowing a sexy kiss to a psychic lance shot from your forehead. The Containment Power could even come in different forms for different Primary and Secondary powersets ... such as Single Target (melee or ranged) and AoE (melee or ranged) ... as appropriate for those powersets.
So to take this notion into example territory, in City of Heroes, the Martial Arts powerset for Scrappers had three melee single target Stun powers ... so it would get a single target melee Containment power using this system. By contrast, the Dark Armor powerset for Scrappers had a PBAoE Stun Aura power ... so it would get a PBAoE Containment power using this system. The difference between them could be something as simple as Endurance Cost (AoEs cost more than single target) and (Interruptible!) Casting Time (AoEs take longer to cast than single target) as far as game mechanics are concerned.
How does that grab you?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Hold.
Hold or Sleep.
Hold.
Confuse.
Disorient / Stun.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Interesting as the concept is, it probably wouldn't work very well particularly since damage to health utilizes multiple attacks in succession to create a flow of combat. To simulate this control sets would need be designed simarly resulting in less diversity within a control set. Or those few single target controls would need be incredibly fast to not require an effective chain to hold a target prior to the controller not being damaged. Even in our standard encounter I would doubt it would be possible to successively result in a controller taking zero damage to earn its defeat via control scheme. And in pvp it certainly won't work very we'll considering everyone will have the ability to gain access to mez protection.
It would also not only altering our design framework for control sets but also altering design for how controls work, not much mind ou on that end but in enough ways that it would be a serious set back. There is determining the qualitive performance of time for damage to equate to success and other forms of mez to equate to success making sure that one way isn't too much more difficult over the other. Why? Because some of our planned specifications couple control sets with damage attack sets.
Right now, for combat purposes, reducing health to 0 (or some other level should the story require) results in a defeated target. Controls can assist by making easier to defeat the target.
Keep in mind that also it may be possible to use controls as a way of navigating through a mission and obtain success. An example being using sleeps or confusion to avoid notice, just as with using debuffs that affect perception.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well "doability" is always the last word, it's just our job to lob you ideas and let y'all sort out the good ones vs the stinkers :P. And I LOVE combining control with damage, so I wouldn't want to muck that up.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I think this is an interesting idea. What entered my mind immediately when I read this is the so-called "[url=https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finish]stomp[/url]" from Guild Wars 2 which allows you to instantly kill a player (in PvP) who is down for the count. The logic behind it parallels your point about mez in that your opponent is essentially helpless, so their defeat should be easy.
I picture this idea working similar to stomping. Let's call it [b]Subjugation[/b].
You would have to be near the enemy to activate it, and it would take time to execute, but as long as the enemy remains mezzed, Subjugation would defeat them outright. Moving or getting mezzed yourself would interrupt it. Only players with an active mez on the target could Subjugate them. Longer and more powerful mezzes would give you more opportunities to Subjugate enemies.
Note that I don't know how well this would translate to PvP, but mez in PvP is a different topic altogether. I'm speaking more in terms of PvE (and I assume you are as well).
EDIT: I see that this is similar to your second post in this thread, Redlynne. Great minds think alike!
I'm just a writer and can't talk game mechanics very well, but I'm with Tannim on this one. Things that are easily fluffed don't really seem to make very stable game mechanics.
However, it does give me an interesting thought, though it's probably wishful thinking right now. Perhaps a side-effect of certain aesthetic animation sets could involve making enemies behave in specific ways. Maybe the "Super Non-Lethal Mind Bullets" animation set gives enemies a special sleep animation when they're "killed," as opposed to the standard "O, I am slain" animation.
Though you'd probably have to talk to the Techs for that.
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
It goes a while back but I did pose the question about customizing animations. Specifically if we could set up a customization for controls on the final part of the animation. As in, my hold attack using my psychic animation can use a sleep animation, a fear animation, or a "psychic pain clutching my head animation".
The possibility exists. The concern is the possibility of causing players confusion over what type of control a target is actually under so that other players can know how to appropriately deal with the effect. And the way we've set up different mez effects to operate differently we would want to make it easy for players to coordinate effects or combat them accordingly.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
It can't just be for the mez system. Tanks main accumulation is threat... what happens when someone or something is threatened?
I personally don't like the confusion of the system. But if it were back in the pre-planning stage I'd love to see these things experimented on.
Visual cues are important in a game with this much diversification. When I see someone with stars above their heads I need to know that means "confused" and not "defeated" If I've been sniped from long range I should have a visual cue letting me know (even if it was with a laser or bullet).. maybe that is just "action lines" as drawn in comics... but at least we see them and know what that means.
If you've been hit by "fire" then you should burn.. even if that fire is made of energy beams or lasers. If you're hit by electricity you should have a cue letting you know. It could look like lightning or it could look like magnetic waves.. but when it hits you it should have a visual cue.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I will have to agree with this. If I remembering it correctly one of the reasons why Champions Online and DC Online's combat didn't feel....impactful enough is that the enemies didn't have that many varied animations for being inflicted by varied powers. I might not be remembering it correctly though...haven't touched those games for years. This is one of the reasons why I loved the ''angel-light manipulation powerset'' in CO in concept but in execution that set felt ridiculously lackluster. The enemies visual cues that they are being damaged or drained were the same exact ones as the dark energy power set.....
I like the idea though of different animations of being defeated, or killed by different powersets. I remember only 1 MMO that did something like this and I loved it then. I imagine it might not be included by launch though.....
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
I love this idea. I think I have a way that is more doable. Still needs thought, but it more doable.
What if people had hit points and stability points? If someone takes damage, they have a reduction in hit points. If someone is mezzed they take a reduction in stability points.
At 0 hp you lose. You are knocked out. At 0 sp you lose. You are tied up and can't get up.
Very simple.
But we don't want a re-skinned damage system. As a character's sp falls they receive debuffs. For example, say a Spider-Man type character is fighting a Rhino like character. The SpiderRipOff fires a volley of webs. They hit, and holds Big R's hand to his thigh. We could say in game terms that his movement has slowed or maybe he has lost access to one of his attacks. Maybe the debuffs get worse the lower his sp is. At this point we know what happens next. The horned guy is strong enough to rip the webbing away and continue to attack the web slinger. He would do this using a system like DCUO's breakout system. He just blocks and this removes the negative condition and also heal some sp damage.
So what about multiple controllers? Let's say Iceman and Spider-Man based characters are fighting another Rhino based character. Iceman freezes his legs and Spider-Man webs the ice to hold it together. Rhino is able to break the ice, but the webbing kept in place. Then Iceman freezes him higher up, and Spider-Man follows suit. Rhino is able to break out of a few attacks, but not the combination and is soon frozen and cocooned. Later that day Iceman and Spidey try the same tactic on Juggernaut. They fail. Badly. Turns out a more powerful boss like Juggs can easily remove both of their attacks with one breakout.
What about mixed groups of damage and controllers? At first it would seem that you would want either all damage or all control so that you aren't whittling down two different numbers. A solution to this problem is that the more damaged an enemy is, the more vulnerable to stability damage it is, and the less stable and enemy is, the more vulnerable to damage it is. You can think of this as Spidey and Wolverine teaming up against Sabertooth (did you know Sabertooth is originally a Spider-Man villain?). Spider-Man shoots webbing on Sabertooth, and Sabertooth easily breaks out. Wolverine takes the opportunity to slash Saber. Saber has taken damage now and is hit by another volley of Spider-Man's webbing. This time it takes two breakouts to remove the webbing since he is tired from the slash. Wolverine seizes the opportunity of an immobilized Sabertooth and guts him. Spider-Man then ends up in therapy for life.
I think it's important to not that this system would mean that raids wouldn't need damage characters. They could have all controller. Or all damage. That means less time finding the team you want and more time playing.
I hope that all makes sense.
I really like the idea that's been brought up twice of the mezzing characters having a finishing move. I think that has the most promise. I was never a fan of insta-kill strategies regardless of what game I've been playing, but that doesn't feel like one.
What's more the power could be selective, wait to release this option until plenty of testing is done and put it in an advances archetypes. Then you can play the gadget guy who pulls a Sherlocke and temple-palmstrikes people unconscioius. Though the timing it takes to meet this condition could be variable, minions you don't have to wait as long, still have to go temple whack everyone but that's the trade off, or just pick off bosses. You're like a stalker. I'm not great with suggesting numbers for this sort of thing.
Though I do think it would be good for characters who aren't mezzers to be able to access this finishing move thing. Maybe give dedicated 'healors' and 'buffers' something to slug through guys.
What you've described is a two track damage system. Take enough of X Damage to defeat. Take enough of Y Damage to defeat. They're functionally the same underlying "method" of doing things, they just keep track of different "damage" numbers. So if you weren't wanting a re-skinned damage system ... um ... oops?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That's essentially the behavior I was angling for ... Mez [b][i]ENABLING[/i][/b] A Finishing Move. That way you have more than one path to successfully defeating Foes.
And you're quite right that the system I described could be set up such that the "timers" need to tick for longer on higher ranked Foes. Minions can be taken out after 10 seconds ... Lieutenants after 20 seconds ... Bosses after 30 seconds ... Elite Bosses after 60 seconds ... Archvillans and Heroes afte- [size=30][b][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQb84PNxu5A]SQUIRREL!!![/url][/b][/size]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I hate when we agree.. you know that right.. but this one.. BRAIN BLAST Jimmy Neutron! No need to eliminate the current systems of DPS as a defeat measure but also a defeat mechanic based on what you do best.
You get that enemy held to the point where their "hold metric", whatever that will end up being, is full (or empty) then you have a power you can use (with like a 20 second cooldown) with a % chance to KO them.
Same with threat.. if your enemy is completely threatened by you you use a big taunt (Like Hulk's Roar) that has a % chance to KO them.
I don't know how the Threat or Mez Metric are being measured so this may be feasible. What I DON'T want to see is having Threat or Mez automatically trigger a defeat. Sometimes having an enemy confused is much better than having them dead.. same for tanks wanting to keep attention on them for good reason. That's just creating 3 different types of DPS and I don't like that system.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Hence why the system I was describing isn't an Auto Defeat. It isn't a system where if you Hold a Foe long enough, they just automagically faceplant on their own without any additional action/effort on the part of your character (let alone the Player). Instead, I've described a system where if you can maintain LOCKDOWN for "long enough" then you, as a character, are empowered to "Finish Them" without needing to bust their HP down to zero by using an ACTION. In other words, it's a two step enabling process. Meet Condition A before using Finishing Move B to actively defeat your Foe(s).
That way, DPS isn't EVERYTHING.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I like this idea, but isn't it just a damage-to-defeat with a different flavor? Let me s'plain...
1.) Hero A lights BadGuy on fire for Damage over time, but BadGuy cannot be outright defeated by DoT, and must be delivered Knockout Punch.
2.) Hero B must keep BadGuy under 'Effect' for so long, but BadGuy cannot be defeated by Effect alone, and must be delivered Hogtie of Justice.
But this isn't a bad thing I feel. It's just giving players of different styles even footing. I would love to see something like this for exactly the reason Redlynne said, I don't want my defeat of BadGuy to rely solely on how hard I can punch him.
But a question on how it would work. You said you must take no damage or you fail, right? Well say it takes me 60 seconds to subdue BadGuy. And little minion hits me with 10 seconds left to go. Does BadGuy instantly get returned to his 60 seconds state, or does it rise slowly back up? In terms of game play, if he jumps up, wouldn't it be more difficult than just damage? Why would people use it if its more difficult? In terms of realism, say you were using Sleep on BadGuy. Wouldn't he wake up groggy?
Looks like there's a bit of confusion here, so let me see if I can clarify. Remember, the system I described isn't just one moving part, it's multiple(s), and those parts need to "align" in order to enable the Finishing Move to be taken.
There would be Timer A on BadGuy A.
There would be Timer B on BadGuy B.
And there is Timer Z on ... ME.
In your example, Timer A on BadGuy A needs to exceed a specific value (let's call it 60 seconds). There is also Timer Z on my character, and it also needs to exceed a specific value (let's call it 20 seconds). In order for the Finishing Move to be enabled, the Timer Z on me needs to be 20+ ... AND ... the Timer A on BadGuy A needs to be 60+. Only when these two conditions are met will the Mez Finishing Move be allowed to "connect" on BadGuy A and Defeat BadGuy A. If these two conditions are not met simultaneously, then the Finishing Move will automatically MISS BadGuy A (and I will have wasted my resources).
So in your example, if LittleMinion B hits me before Timer Z on me has reached 20+ ... the only thing that has been achieved is that Timer Z on ME has been reset. Timer A on BadGuy A is completely unaffected by LittleMinion B hitting my character and resetting Timer Z on me.
Perhaps this would be easier to explain with a couple simple IF-THEN statements.
IF Timer Z < (value) THEN Finishing Move Cannot Be Used
IF Timer A > (value) AND Timer Z > (value) THEN Enable Finishing Move To Hit BadGuy A When Used
Note that this means that if you're hitting multiple targets with your Finishing Move, but only some (not all!) of them have met the Mez Time Elapsed requirement, the Finishing Move will automatically MISS those targets that can't be "finished" yet and only HIT those targets that have already had enough Mez Time elapse. This is a consideration when using an AoE Finisher against a group that can have eligible and ineligible targets for Finishing Move within the area of effect.
Remember, the basic idea here is that you've established "Lockdown" for a "long enough" duration that you can effectively just walk up and "arrest" your Foes, because they are unable to protect themselves/prevent you from restraining them "permanently" at that point. It's the "can't resist" angle that is the important point for WHY something like a Finishing Move ought to be successful.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Ah my mistake. I was under the impression that timer A and timer Z were more connected than that. But I guess my question still stands on what effects timer A, and when effected if it enters a full reset, or fall back to zero.
I ask this because I wonder how difficult it might be, and if you have to have total control for this to work. For example, say I can sleep BadGuy for 5 seconds, do I have to keep him under 'sleep' for the whole of the 60 seconds without pause? If I am a second to late to renew sleep do I start all over?
I think if it were going to be a system, it has to be as applicable and effective (give or take a bit) as straight damage to encourage use. Or else why would I bother trying to maintain sleep on someone(s) when I could just much more simply punch them? Sure it could be a niche thing, but then the question is if it's worth all the development and implementation time to get it working for the small audience that wants it.
I just thought of something that will need to be considered regarding a mechanic like this. How intuitive is it to players? I would argue that its' not, really all that intuitive as it has been described so far.
Health-bars are so ubiquitous that just about any gamer will recognize them, and generally, even someone not familiar with the convention will make the association between knocking that bar to 0 and killing the opponent after a couple of fights.
This mechanic would depend on in-game help text so people can understand how it works. Even then who's going to keep track of a timer like that in the middle of a fight with 2-8 teammates?
Granted, this may be primarily a solo-game mechanic, but still this would require instruction, and possibly some frustration before a player gets the hang of how it can and should be used.
I'm not opposed to the idea, just pointing to something that needs to be addressed with it
Sic Semper Tyrannis
So lets say your playing with your friend who has a melee set. You start fighting the arch villain "Bag 'o Hit Points". You throw down your holds, the mez bars start to build, meanwhile your friend is happily hitting the punch in the face key. At this point its simply a race to see who will get the final "blow". Of course its always nice to not have to worry about counter attacks, but it seems like this would introduce a bit of a inter-team damage competition.
I know this is an oversimplified example, but I think its worth thinking about.
Yup. They're not "connected" in the way you were assuming. They would however need to "align" with each other in order to Enable the Finishing Move Attack.
From my original post at the top of this thread ...
[list][*]Reduce HP to zero
[*]Hold for X seconds while caster takes zero damage
[*]Sleep for Y seconds while caster takes zero damage
[*]Confuse for Z seconds while target takes zero damage and caster takes zero damage[/list]
If timers get reset, they reset to zero and you have to start all over again.
Yes and yes.
If the conditions are set up such that in order to enable the Finishing Move you need to keep the BadGuy under continuous Sleep for 60+ ... then you need to keep the BadGuy under continuous Sleep for 60+ seconds. If that Sleep gets interrupted, then the counter for this resets and you have to start over on the 60+ seconds. If BadGuy is slept for 58 seconds and then gets "woken up" (for {insert reason here}) then you'll have to Sleep that BadGuy for 60+ seconds ... continuously. This isn't a case of a few seconds here and a few seconds there and eventually it all tallies up to be 60+, with a bleed off decay over time mechanic or anything complicated like that. I'm talking about a Boolean (Y/N?) condition. Was the BadGuy in unbroken, continuous Lockdown for X+ seconds? (Y/N)
If YES then Finishing Move is Enabled vs that BadGuy.
If NO then Finishing Move will automatically "Miss" that BadGuy if used on him.
At the same time, the Caster of the Mez ALSO needs to have not taken Damage for Y seconds or less. This is another Boolean (Y/N?) condition. Has the Caster taken Damage in the last Y- seconds? (Y/N)
If YES then Finishing Move is suppressed and cannot be used at all.
If NO then the Finishing Move is available and can be used.
So how does this inter(re)act, since both conditions need to be met before a Finishing Move can be used to Defeat a Foe?
Well ... entering combat ... it is likely that the Y seconds of time on the Caster condition has been met, because time has elapsed while moving between spawn groups (a common enough condition). So the Finishing Move would be Available. BUT ... none of the Foes in a new spawn group will have met the X+ seconds of Lockdown requirement in order for the Finishing Move to be able to "hit" them.
So the Finishing Move would be "available" ... but have no legal targets to affect.
Lockdown would then have to be established, and the timer would need to start ticking on the Foes. Only after the timer on the Foes reaches X+ seconds would the Finishing Move be able to affect them.
Using a City of Heroes Mind/* Controller as an example then ... it would be possible to approach a spawn group of ... let's say Warriors in Talos Island ... and cast Mass Hypnosis on them to put them all to Sleep. This then puts the entire spawn group into (fragile, because it's only Sleep) Lockdown and so the timer on all of them starts ticking. Mass Hypnosis could be enhanced to be "perma" where the duration was longer than the recharge+animation time, so our Mind/* Controller recasts Sleep when it recharges and maintains Lockdown for 60+ seconds. This then makes every Foe in the spawn group an eligible target for the Controller's Finishing Move.
This whole time, the Controller has taken No Damage, so they meet the requirements for being able to cast their Finishing Move. Mass Hypnosis was a Target AoE, so the Finishing Move it enables would also be a Target AoE. The Controller casts their Target AoE Finishing Move on the amassed pile of (Sleeping) Warriors and Defeats them all in one "shot" ... after having "fought" (City of Statues style) with them for over a minute ... despite the fact that the DPS total for the entire encounter is, in fact, ZERO.
You're talking Path Of Least Resistance.
For some builds, being able to "pulp" a Minion with straight up damage might take all of 5-10 seconds, so why bother with a long Mez Defeat instead? The answer is self-evident ... you wouldn't. If you can Defeat a Foe using Damage, that'll tend to be the method used [i]because it's the fastest[/i]. After all, the objective is to get your Foes to crumple and/or faceplant ... right?
The problem is ... not every Archetype, let alone every build, has "equal access" to equally efficient DPS generation. In City of Heroes, Defenders and Controllers weren't exactly known for their DPS meter topping. Controllers originally had it the worst before Containment came along to turn them into "pseudo-Blasters" by doubling their damage output against targets that had already been mezzed. When I first started playing a Mind Controller, before Containment, it really was a game of City of Statues. Defeating a mere 3 Minions solo could take 4-5 minutes, simply because the damage output was so low. I could maintain Lockdown the entire time, no problem ... but then I just had to grind and grind and grind and grind AND GRIND out the pitiful piddly small damage in order to actually successfully Defeat anything. It was very SAFE to play, don't get me wrong, but it was [b]TEDIOUS[/b] to do ... especially compared to my Scrapper, who was already enjoying the thrills of Scrapperlock.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Have some faith in the graphic artists to come up with a way to visualise this that will be sufficiently intuitive :)
The effect on the timer of the mez breaking should depend on the exact nature of the mez. Some could be purely binary on/off switches and breaking those would instantly reset the timer. Others would mess with the target's head and take a short while to fully clear out. Rather than being a problem and a disadvantage this opens up opportunities to create a greater variety of powers both between and within powersets. A simple quick instant hold would equally instantly wear off, but would be cheap and easy to apply. Powers that keep ticking for a while after being applied are more expensive to use, but allow to switch targets and restart the mez timer before it completely resets.
It also allows for a greater tactical variety within the gameplay of controllers. That 2 second instant mez may seem not very useful, but it could just be perfect to throw on an enemy after you got interupted while you wait for your refresh timer to tick down. Keeping three or four enemies locked down will require skill rather than the use of a souped up AoE mez.
And yes, I think the same should be true for damage dealing classes as well. I never was a fan of the way blaster alphas could mow down armies of minions at once. But I guess I am biased. I enjoyed the stalker play style where you had to carefully set up your first strike and then use every trick available to deal with groups of three or more enemies, and never could warm up to blasters or tanks. (and of course I will forever be a dark defender at heart)
-
That said, I would love it if City of Titans would allow classes to 'win' through actually using their powers for their intended purpose. Controllers through controlling, tanks through either stunning or scaring the bejeebus out of their opponents, and so on.
One thing Redlynne's suggestion would do is to stop the villain from being a simple 'bag of hitpoints'
Secondly, in a group the task of a controller is not to directly defeat / arrest the villains but to lock down their ability to fight back. There is no competition here and there never was.
And in any game that allows logging of damage numbers, there is always a competition between dps classes and players to reach the 'top spot'. Adding a different defeat metric will not change that.and will not put players more in competition with each other than they already are.
But if you are this worried it should be easy enough to make the timers tick down so slowly that a halfway competent dps class can defeat the villain before they have run their course.
Elite bosses and arch villains will always require special mechanics due to the binary nature of control powers. If they are allowed to apply unrestricted they make both tankers and defenders unnecessary (after all, a fully held enemy deals zero damage, right?) And if they do not apply at all then there is no point in having a controller class. Having to deal with this minefield is nothing new to any game that allows a form of hold or mez.
In the context of this proposal it would be simple enough to have, in the struggle between villain and mez resistance levels and mez magnitude, the attempts by the villain to break free from the physical or mental hold are more likely to cause physical or mental damage as control slips for a split second (thus resetting various timers). An arch villain would have such a high mez protection that fully controlling them would be impossible, but defanging them to a degree would still be possible, and highly useful to a raid.. And perhaps a well trained and coordinated team of 8 controllers would be able to fully lock the villain down long enough to make the arrest.
Cross quite from the Momentum thread:
I'm not knowledgeable about game mechanics, but I will say that anything that increases the significance and fun of control and debuff effects while still being practically doable for the devs to produce and manage should be very much in the spirit of CoH.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
*rubs chin*
The idea might work if you use the game's Momentum system: http://cityoftitans.com/content/when-fist-meets-face-momentum
The way that's described, players have momentum bars and foes have momentum bars. They all start at 0% and go up when you take action and go down over time if you don't take action. Momentum is described as some sort of 'wild card' meter that can do stuff from give you passive buffs to even super charging some attacks to do special stuff.
Incorporating that information into this thread, there could be other possible ways to defeat foes but it could also be dependent on what 'archetype' you are.
Using simplified examples because it's easier for me to imagine them that way:
~ A Defender might be the momentum manipulator. The higher the opponent's momentum is, the more bonus momentum it could acquire so it can either spread that momentum to teammates via buffs or use it to do a super powerful attack that will do lots of harm to a foe with little momentum. That super powerful attack doesn't have to be an attack in the traditional sense, but something like arresting them in a force bubble or leaving them curled up in the fetal position after the shadows spit them back out.
~ A Tanker might be the momentum dispenser. It gains fast momentum when foes do more damage to them. The harder and more often they hit, the more momentum. And when you get full momentum, you can change your taunt to force all nearby enemies with less HP than you to give up and turn themselves in.
~ A Controller might be the momentum stopper. When a foe has momentum, the Controller can remove some of it away. When Controller's momentum is high/full, you can manipulate a controlled foe and render them nullified.
Of course, all of these are examples and none of them would affect archvillain type mobs and would have a chance of failure against boss types, but it's something to think about.
I wasn't thinking in Momentum terms when conceptualizing the notion of a Mez Finishing Move ... although as you point out that is certainly one of the more obvious avenues that could be used to allow/enable such a feature to be implemented. As always, the Archvillain is in the Details, so it really depends on how you'd want to structure things.
At this point, I'd be happy simply with getting the notion that there are more ways to Defeat Foes than Damage Only. In City of Heroes, the only way to Defeat a Foe was ... Damage (also known as Debuffing HP to Zero). Consequently, Damage Was KING and AoE wore the crown ... with everything else relegated to supporting roles (at best). But if Damage isn't the ONLY WAY to "Win" then ... things can get a lot more interesting.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I love the idea.
Here is a poorly thought out option...which honestly may come down DPS by another name.
What if you had a "shadow" HP meter...same bar, displayed in alternate color to indicate (thinking the way some other MMOs indicate shields or absorption). The shadow HP drops with normal damage. Assuming no control, HP and Shadow HP drop to 0 at the same point.
Traditional "damage" drop the normal HP meter...getting to 0 results in defeat.
Control drops the Shadow HP meter...getting to 0 results in defeat.
Here is the trick however...normal HP does NOT drop with the shadow HP. Shadow HP could also regens quickly when not controlled.
So if a toon can apply the mezz consistently and maintain it, it will eventually drop the shadow HP to 0 and result in a defeat...losing the mezz or having it broken, means that the enemy starts regaining it pretty quickly.
This could also mean that while you make have the AV or EB ignore the effects of the mezz, it still affects the shadow HP, allowing the controller to still defeat the AV/EB via the mezz powers.
It would also allow things like the controller locking down all the minions, while the DPS focuses on the bosses.
Taunts could have the same effect on the shadow HP, of course without the mezz effects, but could allow a low DPS tank to take down mobs via the taunt mechanic.
This would give other options to allow various mobs to resist or regen the shadow HP, making it easier or harder to take them down via control. Even being able to add the "berserker" kind of concept where the more damaged they get the more they resist control or shadow HP damage. Or making certain types of mob resistant to normal damage, but vulnerable to control defeats.
I see what you're getting at. My only objection to such a system would be the complexity of it.
To be fair, one of my bigger gripes with City of Heroes was the way that Containment didn't work on many Elite Bosses and Archvillains (not to mention Giant Monsters) thanks to the Purple Triangles of Doom. The interactions essentially meant that in a straight DPS check against a Big Bag o' HP you spent nearly all of your time dealing HALF DAMAGE because you couldn't establish (let alone maintain) Containment ... so it was really a big double whammy against Controllers. The net effect was to reinforce the "squishy-ness" of your Controller when attempting to solo anything that could Two Shot you from 100% to 0% HP without breaking a sweat. Only way I found around it was to [b]Confuse[/b] some other Foe NPC nearby and use them as my "damage dealer" to take down the EB while drawing no aggro myself. I once spent over 40 minutes autofiring Confuse at a Lieutenant so as to deliver a HP Beatdown onto Atta without drawing aggro, so as to solo the mission ... and later did the same thing to take out Honoree solo in the Incarnate Arc for getting your Alpha Slot unlocked.
Suffice it to say, Ms Givings (my Mind/Kinetics Controller) could be very very VERY(!) patient when forced to solo story arcs.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I like the sound of these ideas but I do have concerns about this being effective in the following scenarios:
- Auto-Damage TF
This is a TF or even normal mission where everyone in the area will take auto AoE damage. This is a fairly common type of "dungeon" effect and would mean that the "caster take no damage for X secs" would almost never come to pass.
- General AoE
Tank has agro and Im applying a ST hold to the Main Boss. No problem here.
Then a minion/LT fires an AoE and it hits me. I've taken damage to the "caster takes no damage for X secs" fails.
Now this could be accepted as a Risk of using this type of defeat mechanic - meaning be careful of the agro you grab and your distance to other party members for AoE.
One other opinion I wanted to add is with Confuse based powers. Namely that Confused enemies "change sides" which I don't 100% agree with. When an enemy is COnfused it doesn't HAVE to mean they become Good Guys or Bad Guys (based on the Casters alignment). Instead it could mean they are still Bad but simply you have confused them as to which side is which - Confuse a CoH Warrior and he is still a Warrior with all his/her attitudes/points of view/opinions/likes/dislikes/etc it is simply that you confused him/her with who he is fighting. Kinda like that Daffy Duck/Elma Fud/Bugs Bunny "Duck/Rabbit Season" skit. Elma is still a hunter and wants to shot something but Daffy "Confuses" him to attack someone else.
In terms of how intuitive this would be as per all games you need to give players a Tutorial based on the Class they select. This Tutorial is skippable but should be mandatory for Classes/Specs you have never played before.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I have no clue if they could make this work or not and as a new idea it would take a LOT of testing and tweaking but I like the core idea. If I may, something else might be considered as well. Yet another Path to Defeat: Fleeing.
One of the (many) ideas we had for CoH was a different way to complete Defeat-All missions. Nobody liked hunting for that LAST guy who might be stuck in a wall and undefeatable. One idea mentioned was defeating 80-90% would trigger the rest to either attack en masse or simply flee. This last bit is what I'm thinking of.
Imagine you're a mook in some villain's employ. Heroes arrive, fight ensues and you're repeatedly hit with Status effects but nobody has time to actually come over and 'defeat' you. The battle moves on and you wake up/break free/whatever. Would you REALLY chase down the enemy or move back to your post over the captured remains of your friends and coworkers or just split?
The idea is very simple though it would likely only come into play in the higher levels where stacking status effects becomes perma and even a single application is likely to last a long time. Once a typical foe (I'm only thinking minions here, not Lts or above) has been under status effects for SO long (say his 'Captured timer has run down twice) you can forget the 'Defeat' move. At any point he gets free he's considered defeated as he runs for the door.
It was the comment regarding the Hulk's roar that got me thinking of this. If he claps his hands and Stuns you for twice your Defeat Timer (unlikely but at higher levels, with proper slotting it might be possible) when you wake up you call it quits.
Thoughts?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I'm digging the ideas that have been presented so far. Using Momentum drain to as a means to line a mob up for a finishing move sounds very thematic. The Fleeing mechanic is great too as it would become more prevalent as a player advances in level, almost becoming a milestone for that particular character class.
"All things being even, I'll take impossible odds."
- Crash MacTavish