It is not an overstatement to say that the vast overwhelming supermajority of "things to do" in most MMORPGs involves combat in some form or fashion. This was certainly the case in City of Heroes and I'd expect it to be the case in City of Titans.
So [b]Beat 'Em Up[/b] is a staple of the online game as well as a staple of Superhero Comics.
But is there anything else that can be "done" in a MMORPG?
Obvious things like "crafting" come to mind, but those are essentially "jump through these hoops" to get more powerful "stuff" for your character ... often with the intent of making them better in combat (yes, it all loops back to combat).
Some games add additional axes of character development to pursue. World of Warcraft has its Faction system with reputational advantages. City of Heroes had Badges ... as does TERA and a number of other games on the market these days, which rewards exploration of the game as well as "over and above" completion of content (ie. Defeat 10,000 Rikti Monkeys).
For pure creative efforts, particularly of the decorative variety, City of Heroes had SG Bases, and other games have various types of Player Housing.
Essentially, I'd like this thread to be more of a [s]Barnstorming[/s] Brainstorming repository of the types of "activities" that Players in City of Titans could undertake. Because, let's be honest ... if all you can do is Beat 'Em Up ... the game will ultimately feel somewhat lacking. So what else can a MMORPG format game allow Players to "do" beyond just going around and busting knuckles?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I want my heroes to help people
to clean up graffiti
to rescue people from crash sites
to do charity work
to explore worlds where not all of the inhabitants are hostile
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I'll throw in with Paladin on this. Help people once in a while and make it fun and challenging (or just fun) but it has to be as lucrative as (if not a hair more than) smashing baddies.
You know, the classics.
Rescue a train heading for a collapsed bridge. Rescue a sinking ship. Put out a flaming building. Rescue a cat from a tree for a kid. Rescue a space station that had an explosion or got hit by a meteor.
And "puzzle missions" (though not quite as hard as TSW, jeesh...) where you solve a mystery or (as Pally said) act as an ambassador to a friendly alien race, all to learn more about game lore.
But make it lucrative or most people won't even give it a try to see if they like it or not.
Other than that, I spent a TON of time dinkering with my costume, improving my backstory/bio, and tweaking my build on Mids. So, build it into the game.
The more OPTIONAL bacstory/bio page and build tweaking tools can be built into the game--the way the costume creator is--the more people MIGHT spend time on them who wouldn't otherwise if all those things are outside of the game like VirtueVerse and Mids.
Basically, give people what the community already wanted enough to go make for themselves outside of the game. If it is optional but built into the game more people will try it and it'll become a fun time sink.
An important business principle I've learned from experience--as much as you can and within reason, give people what they are already asking for, don't try to tell them what they want.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I'd like to see some missions that require not only exploration, but attention to detail. Missions that are akin to treasure hunts or Where's Waldo. The idea is for such missions to be completed according to [i]description[/i] and not [i]identification[/i].
For instance, an NPC needs a certain kind of plant, but they only describe what it looks like. Or an NPC needs your help to deliver something to another NPC who you have to find by their appearance. In neither case would the objectives be marked on the map or flagged in any way in the open world. You'd have to use your cunning to find what the NPC is referring to by keeping your eyes peeled and perhaps interrogating other NPC's for clues.
One thing that I thought Elder Scrolls Online did rather successfully was their Hidden Treasure Maps. You'd have a piece of parchment/paper that had a hand drawn image of terrain features and so on with an [b]X marks the spot[/b] to go dig at. The challenge was to find the "place" where the image on the map was drawn/inked/painted and then use that to figure out where the hidden treasure was buried. Very very clever bit of content creation, I thought, particularly given that there were virtually no "instructions" given through text. It was all just a visual "find this spot, then dig here" sort of thing.
Of course, it didn't take all that long for an ESO map website to find (and mark) where all the treasure maps had their hidden treasure buried, so people wouldn't have to work as hard to find it ... so the whole "go look it up on a wiki" aspect of it diminished the challenge. But that didn't change the fact that it was actually a rather clever bit of work with some artistic flair to it, since the treasure maps themselves were purely visual.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I want my hero to expose the corrupt cops, DAs and judges who make deals with mobsters or who knowingly prosecute the innocent because it's a win or they think the public needs someone to be prosecuted and they have no one else.
Breaking into mobster penthouses and grabbing the blackmail photos and then getting them posted in the papers to the public!
Basically, show she's a hero who likely won't get favored by every cop, DA, judge, because she will ruin the corrupt ones and not let them just deal it with it behind closed doors and let them get away with crimes just to save face.
Also want one on one archvillain fights! Not watered down Elite Boss fights!
I RP her doing things with vets and the children in the childrens ward, not sure I need some mission where it's basically a chance for a screen shot?
Saving people from natural disasters once in a while would be cool. A volcano erupts near a town, we need to evacuate the city and build a blockade. Or a meteor is coming at the city, we need to destroy it before it reaches the ground. That type of thing.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMcQdRLgVpMwXi_3yTCN5iA/videos
This; maybe as mentioned somewhere else show a screenshot of a nearby location or anything to ease up the search a little.
Also we could have some kind of text based events like helping the police with an interrogation or hostage situation.
Or if you're the bad guy you could be on the other side of the hostage 'trade'.
If you realized how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought.
I'm afraid this will translate into find the glowie. or something worse.
I always found that missions like that took way too long for too little reward, until a friend pointed out that I could just keep hitting the tab button as I ran around and eventually I'd target it, (provided I'd already beat all the bad guys on the map) and I'd know what direction to go.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Sounds like another "I want to do more than push 1 2 3 4 and attack things mission" but anything else is just as boring and makes me wonder why people play MMOs.
Escort? Hate it!
Find Glowie? Hate it!
Craft? Hate it!
Pretty sure no matter what they do, you're going to hate it. :p
Well, they are going for as much "if you don't like it you don't have to do it" as possible in CoT, so hopefully they can still have all of those things for overall variety but it won't be a problem because you won't HAVE to do it.
Unless it just pisses someone off that it's in the game, even though they don't have to do it :P
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
To me, the way to approach this "what can I do other than combat?" question is by asking what other kinds of games people play.
Harvest Moon, Farmville, Civilization, and a host of others are acquisition games. Much like MMOs, the goal is to get more and better "stuff," much of which is then used to accelerate your process of getting "stuff." But instead of combat, the activities center around resource management or time management. Build X with Y of Z resource, spend [i]t[/i] minutes performing this simple gameplay activity (move here, press action button to use item B here), allocate your accumulation ability towards getting more of W resource...
The challenge comes from various costs, whether your resource investments pay off faster than they dry up, and sometimes from opposing forces (back to combat, sometimes...or sometimes it's a race of some sort) or a race against the clock (gotta get the farm up and running before a given day or I lose it!).
Then there's the core gameplay type that most of the highly addictive freemium games use: puzzle games. Bejeweled, tetris, memory, tower defense, and myriad variants thereon (as well as hundreds of others) come in all sorts of skins and flavors. These can be difficult and cheesy to work into anything other than their own stylized themes, but some amount of it could probably go into crafting or similar. (I remain fond of a more Minecraft-esq crafting system: put X items in, get Y item(s) out. Probably with placement on "grid" being important, and multiple kinds and styles of crafting "table" to make more variety possible from the same pool of ingredients.)
The base-builders of CoH (and other games), the avatar-construction not-quite-a-game (but still entertainment!)... these are aspects that are fun but don't require combat.
Base-building could probably become a form of acquisition game. Maybe have a tower defense "mode" where bases who are less-than-secret have to defend against waves of mooks and other NPCs. Crafting is both its own acquisition game and, depending on whether we incorporate elements into it, could involve one or more puzzle games.
I personally have ambitions for (but no promise we will be able to pull off) a more dynamic side of the game wherein control of various parts of the city rises and falls with activities taken on behalf of or against various factions. This would influence some of how those areas looked, as well as what kinds of people/creatures spawn there, and maybe even incidental missions. This would most easily fall into more combat, of course: beat up factions other than the one you want to promote in this area to reduce their influence. But acquisition games and exploration quests and "find the glowie" done with some element of tactics might be feasible to specificaly build up a faction.
Many "find the glowie" missions could replace the "stand there and wait for a bar to fill" angle with some sort of puzzle game that must be solved. We'd have to be careful with that, but it would at least make partial-solution a thing (get hit and you're pulled out of it), and maybe even make certain steps more dangerous (crud, if I am pulled away while these red wires are aligned the timer could run out and the whole thing could blow!), but we would want various powers to offer some extra options.
Heck, if "find the glowie and solve the puzzle" is common enough, powers that are primarily useful in puzzle-games could be interesting choices.
None of this is "definitely what will happen," but I do like thinking about these kinds of things.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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Zelda and Wizard 101 have some nifty mini-games built into them. They don't have to have rewards that are useful in the game, they could give stuff we keep at our character's house, like toys or pets, or they could just be for fun.
That's another thing:
We could get stuff not just to put in our secret superhero H.Q. but also in our home,
If all rewards Have to be useful, we might forget that the game is supposed to be fun.
Why can't my reward be a kiss from the princess?
Oh yeah I think a lot of people might like it if they could have a significant other.
Perhaps with different AI based on whether or not they know about our secret I.D.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The Secret World has three types of missions: Regular, Steatlh and Investigation
The regular kind you have to do things like Kill X or Fed-ex or (thankfully more rarely) escort and tower defenses. They also tend towards longer chains of objectives within a single mission and mix up the goals. In many cases you can opt to try stealth over brute force for at least part of the mission. E.g. there is a forest in the second zone of the first area that is crawling with a particularly nasty kind of giant bugs that are rather difficult to handle with incomplete builds like most players have at that point. in the middle of that forest is a tree with a treehouse that you have to visit, and several missions send you through that forest. You can gather a group and bull through, or you can play it very cautiously and try to evade the static spawns and patrols and make it to that tree as well.
Stealth missions on the other hand simply can not be finished by brute force. There are simply too many guards, automated defenses and one-hit kill zones. You have to make your way through enemy camps using every scrap of cover, while avoiding detection and roving patrols, and, not infrequently, cause distractions to clear a narrow window of opportunity for you to slip through. These missions are very hard to do, but exhiliarating if you manage to get them wrapped up.
Investigation missions are by far my favourite type. As long as you are prepared for hours of headscratching and frustration along with the reward of that moment of 'I GOT IT!' that makes it all worthwhile. You also have to have the self-control to avoid the walkthrough and spoiler sites of course. These missions basically giveyou a vague goal, often a rumour that may or may not be true and a vague clue, and then send you off with a 'good luck figuring it out'. You have to solve the puzzle, which leads to another mystery or riddle, and another, and another. One of those missions had me stumped for almost two weeks while I studied ancient egyptian mythology trying to work out some obscure clues. Thankfully (and given the fact that the game is set in modern day earth and everybody should have access to smart phones) there is a built in browser that helps you with studying the clues. Even then it often is ... hard. And extremely rewarding to figure it all out for yourself. (the only exception to this rule of figuring it all out for myself was an early investigation missions where you had to decipher a morse-coded message played back at professional speed. That was a bit more time and effort than I was willing to invest).
-
In general the missions in The Secret World are absolutely top notch, and should be studied by any game developer aiming at a game which incorporates story telling through their missions. Forget about SW:TOR and its much vaunted voice-acting. The stories are nice and on occasion interesting, but they are downright primitive next to TSW.
I think this of FFXIV. Just wonderfully done imo when it comes to the various ways to mission.
As for voice acting, don't care for it really. For one, voice acting means they never say my character's name. Second, in the case of FFXIV it forgoes my character talking. Lastly, I may or may not care for the voice acting, which could have me going *Sigh* with a scene.
+1
While action is huge in comics, so are other things and other ways to mish would be awesome. I'd think something like 50% action missions and 50% all other types of story/puzzle/stealth/etc. missions would be a good ratio.
And both for the expediency of game development and the comic book feel--plus what BrandX said above--I agree that less voice acting is more.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I honestly hope City of Titans doesn’t stray too far from City of Heroes. I do not want puzzles, nor having to dodge attacks like in The Secret World. While I don’t want a exact copy I do want the game play to feel very similar. I may be in the minority on this.
There's a pretty firm commitment to having no twitch mechanics, which an active dodge would be.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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They already have firmly stated that there will be no twitch or "movement puzzles" in the game, so I don't think you have anything to worry about there, but some non-combat missions would be nice. If you don't like them, just don't run them. Nobody liked or ran ALL of the missions in CoH.
You could always get to 50 and beyond in CoH with lots of fun and variety yet without ever running a good percentage of the missions. As a matter of fact, you just about couldn't play them all if you tried.
A few non-combat missions that you can skip here and there shouldn't ruin your experience. Unless the fact that they even exist in the game that bothers you. Which I wouldn't think would be the case.
But non-combat detective or general do-gooding and exploration/adventure is very much a part of both the comic book and movie Superhero genre. Usually even more than actual time spent fighting.
So a little non-combat here and there shouldn't be too overboard.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
This one was one of the VERY few I actually figured out quickly!
I recorded the morse code as a .WAV file and could see the dots and dashes.
But you're absolutely right, some of the "clues" are extremely obscure.
Spending lots of time on them gets really frustrating but it DOES fit in nicely with the overall tone of that game.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Well how bout this?
You run across a random mission, for example, a building that has collapsed. You start digging for survivors, and discover a child trapped. you find out that trying to move the rubble would collapse it on the child. The young one is conscious and asks for your story. This gives the player the option to tell their back-story (Truth or Lie, up to player) while the engineers figure out way of fixing this. Then after its over, that story, or elements of it, may become public or may spawn radiant missions for the player. The story does not need to be text (for those not wanting to write) it could be Multiple choice dialog options. (for easier programming :) ). It doesn't even have to be back-story, it could be previous missions or something similar.
Something similar could be done for villainous types. The building could have collapsed on a hero they just fought and the villain could be Monologuing their story/plans/whatever.
It could be that as you choose/write the story in the dialog that it forms a flashback mission that you get to run through and then return to the child/hero/hostage/whatever
This would give a system of flexible repeatable (and optional, you dont have to tell a story) missions to players (as the crisis can vary based on the ambition of the programmers) that give them the feeling of personalizing the game. Rewards could be Semi/Totally unique badges or random text spawn from NPC's/civilians as CoH had or what ever thing that could make that mission that much more personal.
They also serve, who only stand and wait.
With as long as this game will be in development, it may be a mistake to have CoT a tab/target game. Audience may actually want a bit of twitch mechanics by then. We hear often of people wanting a game like TERA, even if they bitch about TERA.
What about something like the detective bits from the Arkham games? Wouldn't apply to all characters, of course, but that goes back to the point Empyrean was making about stuff being optional. What with the hints MWM has given us about being able to choose our own story, perhaps one will be able to direct a character's path towards or away from combat/non-combat missions as the player sees fit.
One minor question that has me stumped: can someone please explain the "What Do?" in the title of this thread? Is that just a typo (perhaps the accidental omission of the word "To") or is it a pop-culture reference I don't get?
Spurn all ye kindle.
There has already been a lengthy argument about Twitch vs. Tab Targeting and the Devs have already stated that there will be no Twitch mechanics.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I see where you're coming from, but as they say the grass is always greener, and I don't think most people have any idea what they really want. If most people got exactly what they think they want, they'd go nuts in about 10 minutes.
Also, in the current business environment, the general recomendation for a small business startup is to go deep niche rather than trying to please everybody, or even most people--and this works especially well online where you can reach that niche all over the world.
So, it stands to reason that focusing on and doing a very good job of pleasing a very particular segment of people in the industry rather than trying to compete in the action-mmo market would be the the right strategy for a company like MWM.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I like tab targeting.
Only thing i really want is to have an option to Hold Tab for 2 seconds longer to target my Next Preferred Enemy. It should depend on my preset Order I set in my Options.. Tab targets Boss 1st.. Hold Tab again for 2 seconds, finds a Leut 2nd, etc... or close to that.
Or If you really want to target a specific type of Foe... While Holding down TAB, press 1 for BOSS, or while holding down Tab for less than 2 seconds press 2 to target the next Leut. etc... depends on the order in the List you set in the Options.
This way, struggling to target a certain rank (BOSS maybe) in a cluster of Minions will need LESS Twitchiness from the players part as I would frantically move my mouse around to hover it exactly right over the BOSS to target him, as the minions all start to swarm around me getting in the way of my mouse targeting prowess. ;)
Yea, you can always Tab, Tab, Tab, Tab, till you get the BOSS targeted, but that can get very annoying if you're fighting in an Rikti or Zombie Event where there are just toooooo many foes to Tab through. :/
I wonder if i should post a new thread on this Tab target mechanic? :|
Which I was a part of. The comment was just on the fact that the game is not nearly as far as long as it was suppossed to be, and the longer it takes to get out, the more the potential player base may want other things.
I agree, I prefer tab targeting to twitch mechanics. To me its always been a gimmicky thing for MMOs. I'm willing to admit TERA was unable to hold my interest like many of the other MMOs lately. And after playing CO since it launched I can say I much preferred CoH's style compared to being able to miss powers and such from enemies getting just abit out of your range at the last moment. However improved tabbing options like you stated I would appreciate seeing in the game and could see it helping. Though I wouldn't care if it wasn't a priority.
Puny Heroes.
Supposed at what point? Many games miss their original release date, and MWM has revised their dates and given the reasons for the revisions.
Depending upon what you consider the real potential player base. If you want to consider all MMORPG players, that may be true, but that would be a terrible and unrealistic business strategy for this game. Based on what most have said in these forums, it doesn't seem like it should be a problem.
And besides, since the ship has already sailed, all your original statement about it being a mistake to use tab/targeting does is earn you "I told you so" rights. It'd be more productive to discuss how the tab/targeting should be designed.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Yes, and all those games get flak for missing those dates but had the benefit of not being crowd funded.
As to what I consider the player base, I consider it any MMO player, as I figure there will be the "Oh! Look! New MMO! Let's play it and check it out and ditch this MMO I consider my favorite MMO!" types when it does get launched. :p
I'd also like it to be successful enough to actually keep going. :p
I totally agree with your sentiment about success. But I do think the long-term success of this game hinges on the fact that MWM understands what the game really is--and it's not the next Tera.
I didn't catch your first point. Non-crowd funded games, which generally have much, much more funding than the 600K that MWM got, often get flack for starting late. So what does that mean about a game that has much less in the way of financial resources? I would think it would mean that delays were more understandable.
Regardless, CoT is going to have some form of tab targeting, so we might as well focus on making that as good as possible. I think we can improve on the tab targeting of CoH and take it to the next level and make it even more fun. Not by trying to make "tab-twitchy" like TSW, but by making it just really well-done tab targeting.
Anyway, we need a thread on that like Izzy said. This has become a thread hijack :P
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
It's worth noting that we are not supported by our work with MWM and CoT; we have day jobs which demand our time and attention and, in all honesty, have to take priority if we're going to keep roofs over our heads and food on our tables. Thus, we are working as fast as we can, but there are only so many hours in a day, and everybody on the project is already putting in more than 40 hours a week of work just by virtue of being on the project.
This isn't a plea for sympathy, by any means. It's merely an explanation as to why we take the time we do. We make up for lack of budget by having people who are dedicated to the project who are willing to work on this in addition to whatever it is they do to support themselves. But that does come at the cost of man-hours our people can really devote to this. We are making progress. I'm actually quite excited by where we are.
Sorry I can't give more heartening promises; all I can say is, if we continue to work at this pace, there WILL be a City of Titans, and I have high expectations that it will be sustainable. I, personally, will make no date promises. But it does look good to me.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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Seg
Just reading this is very uplifting. To everyone working on CoT you have my thanks. It is because of you we will have a home again someday.
Since I wrote it, I figure I'm qualified to answer this one. ^_~
When I was working as a customer service agent for ESO, there were a few times where what needed to happen came into conflict with what I was allowed to do. It was the classic case of a frustrating dilemma, and the only way out of it was for me to turn to my team supervisor and ask, "what do I do with this one?" simply because there was no way for me to resolve it on my own (and we were "required" to resolve tickets, naturally).
Anyway, for one of these exceptionally confounding cases, where even my supervisor got stumped, we were basically constructively arguing back and forth trying to puzzle out a way to DO SOMETHING based on what we were allowed to do (which wasn't much). So there was some sounding board going on in both directions, and just about everything we came up with wound up being something that was against company policy. Eventually, my supervisor just sighed (like I had before calling him over), looked at me and said ... "what do?" ... in a humorously moronic fashion because we'd basically considered all of the options and had to reject them all.
Ultimately, in that case, we decided that there was no answer we could give to the all important question of "what do?" simply because we weren't authorized to do what needed to be done. So rather than taking action ourselves, as Tier 1 Support, the ticket got kicked up to Senior Support so that someone authorized to do the kinds of things that needed doing on this ticket could happen. I wrote up a [b]WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU!!™[/b] on the ticket and escalated it on up the food chain in the hopes that someone else could cut the Gordian Knot that was the root cause of the problem.
Ever since then, that look and sound of befuddled helplessness in my supervisor when he said in a goofy dumb voice ... "what do?" ... has stuck with me, and I've enjoyed it ever since. Given the context of this thread, how could I resist the opportunity to share it with all of you, even if I can only do so through plain text?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I love voice acting most of the time. Especially in newer games were a lot of effort is put into doing it right. It creates so much more immersion (and I can just imagine with equal amounts of excitement and dread how it would be to play a game like TSW with an occulus and headphone set to really immerse yourself into that lightly horror and paranoia themed world)
But you are right that the downside is that your character does not say a word and you are never addressed by name...
I understand that financially fully voice acted games are entirely out of the league of a small studio like MWM, and they are expensive even for the big ones like Bioware and Funcom (and others like Zenimax tried to do it a bit cheap and the result was ... not pretty). But I would wonder why it is so hard to add the opportunity to create a phonetic interpretatin of your character's name for the playback of voice acted sound clips, and give you the ability to slightly tweak your characters 'voice' for his or her own spoken lines. Text to voice software is not quite where it should be, but it cannot be so impossibly far away yet that with some trickery it can not be made to work? I mean if you start with a female voice it would take only a bit of pitch shifting and compression or expanding of certain frequencies and sound patterns to get at a unique sounding voice that is still recognisably human and female. Or not human at all. This processing would only have to be done at the player's computer, team members would simply hear the standard voice, unless character speech was piped through VOIP to other players, neither solution would burden the servers at all.
Yeah, this little rant probably should be on the Bioware forums instead of this one.
Dodging attacks is the combat style of that game, and it really applies only to area attacks that are a very bad idea indeed (tm) to remain standing in. There is a cooldown timer on the dodge ability that makes it patently obvious that it is not meant to be used gratuitoiusly but only to get out of 'that big one'.
Stealth missions in TSW are, if anything, the opposite of twitch gameplay. Every move you make has to be deliberate. You find a safe place (stationary or otherwise!) from where you can survey your environment and plan out your next step. You study the presence and timing of the dynamic defenses like roving patrols and swiveling security cameras, and figure out at what moment you can slip past them to your next safe spot. Hopefully one from which you can disable some of the static defenses like death traps and electrified fences, or how to empty a laboratory so you can get a look at the research data for yourself.
Even if you know what you must be doing, it can still take you between 10 and 20 minutes to complete such missions (and yes the reward for these is appropriate to their dfficulty).
It is often frustrating, tense in a way that combat missions almost never are (you can't outlevel stealth the way you can combat), exhiliarating and such a wonderful deviation from the typical MMO (world of warcraft) mission design.
This kind of 'brute force is not going to help you' missions also have their place in story chains in superhero tales. Storming the enemy base before you know what is going to be there is not generally a good idea, and even comic writers on occasion recognise this fact.
A potential type of mission that would be almost unique to the superhero genre is the 'Interrogation' mission. There the task is to get information out an unwilling witness or suspect without being able to resort to torture or mind control. Just a battle of wits so to speak and trying to figure out what buttons to push with the opponent to make him or her slip up and reveal some small bit of information the he or she would have kept secret and that gives you a clue of how to either proceed with the interrogation or where to go next for further evidence.
A mission type like this would even tie in very nicely indeed with a reputation system. If you have a reputation to play a bit quick and loose with the law then your suspect is going to react entirely different to you than if you are known to be a paladin at heart, or known to not be above of having a bit of a fun time with the less than upstanding citizens of the city. E.g. In the movie The Avengers, the scene where Loki is interrogated would have played out entirely differently if it had been done by e.g. Captain America instead of Black Widow.
And an interrogation mission might even make actual use of the elaborate clothing design system like City of Titans is going to have. After all, if you go to somebody to pump him or her for information, it helps if you do not look out of place. Whether it is a dressing like a homeless to win the trust of some hobos, or dressing up in tux or ball gown to be able to talk some upper-class socialite. Granted this traditionally is more of a spy story thing than a superhero one, but it still can work in many situations with superheroes as well. After all, unless the villains and heroes of the story are closely matched, it is not going to be much of an interesting story (might make a nice power fantasy, but as a story it is pretty much a bust if the hero can just come in, all invulnerable to the villain's weapons and knocks him out with a single punch). And if the powers are that closely matched, it does make a lot of sense to proceed with caution and try to find some actual information first as opposed to kicking in the front door and start knocking heads together. (and yes, that kind of story also has its place in the superhero genre).
Actually, Bioware stated that voice acting wasn't that big of a budget concern and rather inexpensive for them.
As to why they don't have a phonetic system in place, likely because it wouldn't work 100% and thusly upset the player base some how. :p
What kind of voice acting would one categorize Fire Emblem: Awakening as? I think that's my favorite type as it only has sort phrases, grunts, laughs, ect at the beginning of a new block of dialog that sort of aids in relating the tone and cadence of the dialog but only says part (or none) of the written words.
As far as what I want to do in game besides combat, I crave for my heroes and Villains to seem competent in this other than combat. Solve crimes, persecute criminals, research and cure stuff, build and fix tech, divine information, scry hard to find things or places, teach. List goes on. How could one accomplish this in an mmo and be engaging? Heck if I know. Some ideas:
- visual novel-esque dialog trees that branch side stories?
- a blend of puzzle visual novel like the Ace attorney or Layton games?
- resource managing to build up underlings and side kicks to regulate activities in an area to your liking (could also introduce side missions like your site kick turning against you or getting kidnapped or killed).
I hope the devs keep open minds about varying up the opportunities in the game.
In a superhero genre context, I'd want to do Stealth Missions as a Secret ID style of mission. That way use of brute force is considered "out of bounds" by the kind of mission it is. Leaves open the possibility of getting caught (ie. primary Mission Failure) and then switching to Super ID to brute force your way out for diminished rewards (ie. secondary Mission Objective).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
CoX had a limit on how many different mechanics their missions could have, I felt. It was always "defeat all" or "defeat boss" or "click glowie(s)" pretty much. Granted, they stretched that a lot, by making you do those things in unique order, making the party split up to click glowies at the same time, etc. I wish I could come up with some other mechanics that we could add in to make things more varied and interesting, but I'm coming up blank.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Hmm... I never thought about that much. I guess beat 'em up and help others who can't beat them up on their own.
N.O.N.E.
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I guess there was also "stop X baddies from escaping the map" so that's one more. I guess rescuing hostages was another, although that mostly amounted to just more punching of baddies. Still, in Warburg you had to stay visible and not use travel powers so they could keep up. Those things were fun.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Escorts
I know what you're thinking but
Escorts would be fine if the people we were escorting would stay close to us (or not stray from the path) and not get attacked.
Sure we'd assume they were doomed if we failed, but we wouldn't have to actually worry about them as long as you're alive.
Now you might be saying why bother with the NPC if nothing can happen to them?
The answer is the story
First of all you have to get them somewhere so it's reach a destination
Also you might need to find them on the map before you can start to escort them
You also might need to find something for them before they're ready to go,
either some valuables they don't want to leave behind
or maybe a cure for whatever is keeping them there.
I once made a mission where you had to locate a bunch of old people and escort them through a rough neighborhood to the grocery store, on the first of the month. All of the old people were based on characters from 70s sitcoms. There was Fred Sanford, Edith Bunker, Alice (from the brady bunch) I cant remember who else I used, but they each said something related to the show they were from.
This was before the government started giving social security by direct deposit only.
Assault style missions
one of my favorites
You stand your ground and fight until you beat a certain number of bad guys,
then the boss and his closest guys show up and if you beat him the fight is over (everyone else retreats)
this means no bothersome exploring
you might need to Keep an eye out for the ones trying to plant bombs
(if you throw that in there be sure to warn players that they can't do it solo)
watching waiting, and following
without being noticed (Meow) can be part of a mission
piece of cake if you're a ghost not so much if you're a big tank who clanks when he walks
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
On the one hand, I'm a big fan of players having a choice. It covers more bases and provides variety. On the other hand that can spread the resources thin. Only the Devs can make that call.
Crafters wanna craft so make that fun. Keep the tedium down to a minimum and PLEASE make drops have some rhyme or reason (magic guys should almost never drop tech loot and vice versa). Have the crafter items provide enough boost to be worth it but not be OP (fine line I know). Crafting fun items like Snowball Guns and base decoration items can be fun too.
People have always loved the CC from CoH so you gotta make that as flexible as possible. I actually liked the cape unlock missions, the aura mission and so forth. I don't want to have to spend a fortune for some cheap little item but really cool stuff can be a reward for a crafting mission.
One of the few things CO did well was having small disaster things you could help with or not. CoH had fires and gang attacks too IIRC. Digging people out and healing them instead of always having to bash stuff is a nice change of pace.
Mini-games can be anything we can think of. Anything from timed events (running through a tunnel to save someone before water/fire/rubble kills them) to investigation (character finds a scrap of paper at a recent crime scene but no glowie...you gotta LOOK for it) to big-time events (meteors headed for the city. Fliers can engage close up, rangers can blast them from a distance and melee types can try to defeat whatever crawls out of the ones that actually hit). Having a variety means every character can feel useful. Making them optional means they can opt out.
Base building in CoH, with all the flaws, was fun. People like to create things of permanence. Something they can share. Something others can help with. A few changes and bases can be fun again. Set up permissions room by room. Players can decorate their own space without messing up the main base and destroying another player's work. Private rooms with private storage can take care of many of the reasons players wanted solo bases in the first place. Starting them out small is fine but after a time teams will want to expand. I'd like to see lots of Base stuff available as the game progresses. Early on they'd be casual meeting places with some decorations. After the devs get some time in they might add more decorations and some functionality like communications (for getting missions) or teleporters.
For me it's all about the variety and replayability. I can run different toons through stuff a lot as long as its fun.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
like SPEED: "Cruise Control"?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ajHoq1p.png[/img]
Its a Timed mission, and If you fail to defeat the baddies, the Boat slams into the Port. Your Reputation sinks a bit and things cost more from vendors. They dont like you As Much now! :<
I think a lot of ground could be explored in changing "click the glowie" to "perform the activity." The most straight-forward would be something like "clear the bejeweled puzzle; your character is still standing there while you do this and it resets if you're forced away by being hit or the like." But a little more thought and effort might make the activities less forced than a generic internet puzzle. Perhaps there would be ways to use powers to accelerate or open new options, as well.
Heck, if we have our craft system look anything like I keep picturing - a sort of "Minecraft Table" approach where you put items together in specific places on a crafting table - that could be a "glowie" to click. Go to the unique crafting table in the mission map and put the macguffins together in the proper configuration to get the desired effect.
Which macguffins you use in what places could even alter the outcomes of the mission.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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That sounds good to me, Segev. One thing a lot of people wanted in CoX but never got was the ability to actually PLAY pinball on that pinball machine in Pocket D. If what you're describing is possible, i.e. little mini-games within the game, then I don't see why pinball would be impossible in the same way. That said, the CoX people kept telling us that making a pinball game within the CoX game would have been a lot of time and effort to implement which they didn't want to invest in something so trivial.
One thing that would be really cool is some kind of 3D version of a Rubik's cube to have to solve. (it's a graphic, so no peeling off the stickers this time!). That could also be like REALLY hard to implement in code (not to mention solve as a player) though.
I wonder what the monetary cost of using little games like Bejewelled, Tetris, or Alchemy, etc would be though?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Dungeons & Dragons online keeps using these goofy floor tile puzzles,
which even the narrator in one of the missions makes fun of.
It would be nice to see some different puzzles (not just more variations on the same puzzle)
Maybe some moving blocks around type puzzles like in zelda
But the rubic's cube is a bit much, some of us have never been able to solve that dang thing
and a lot of people solved it once after working on it for weeks, and never touched it again.
I'd hate to see a minigame that takes longer to solve once than it takes to level up to 50 if you just don't do that mission.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Well, from what I've heard about UE4 making a working pinball game is completely possible, just a matter of knowing how to code a pinball game, and digital versions have been around since at least the Atari VCS (2600).
If I can't peal off the stickers can I disassemble and reassemble the cube? That's how I solved it.
Licensing the games might be out of reach, but cloning the game play and fitting them in, either with lore replacements or as an actual puzzle to advance the story/mission would be a possibility.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
One way of mixing Beat 'Em Up with puzzles dates all the way back to 1983 and the first laser disc arcade game ... [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6em4GRiRY0]Dragon's Lair[/url] ... animated by Don Bluth. For extra bonus points, here are all of the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l464ZF5jK3Y]Deaths[/url] of Dirk the Daring. Yes, Princess Daphne is [b]beyond useless[/b], but it was a much more sexist era back then.
Now, admittedly, the gameplay for Dragon's Lair (and the other laser disc games that followed in its wake) would classify as "twitch gaming" in a MMO context today, but I'd like to think that there are a few decent ideas hidden away in even such an early "game" where the player needed to simply follow a preset routine for each "room" in the game in order to "survive" to the end. The important thing to note is that not every challenge could be overcome by use of a sword, so it wasn't just strictly a Beat 'Em Up kind of game.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
While I welcome variety, I'd recommend caution on the idea of including mini-games unless they are completely optional/avoidable. All of us are here to play a particular kind of game, and while some may want a distraction from the core, many would not appreciate being forced to play some other kind of game to achieve anything important in the game. If you want to play Bejewelled or pinball, go ahead and do so. There are apps for that.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Wildstar has a "Simon Says" memory puzzle for some missions, where to open a box, you have to complete the puzzle.
Thankfully these boxes are *generally* in places that are slightly out of the way; and normally only work up to the 4 or 5 options. There is one puzzle that goes up to 10 or 11 stages if I remember correctly. Its in a safe zone, and rewards you with a title if you complete it.
A player developed a "Simon Says" completer addon, which the developers were fine with. Sure, it also makes the other "button press" style of actions easy to complete (hands free as well!), whilst NOT being able to do the "Hold X direction to break out of the stun" (there is NO way in the API to do this either).
Do I use this? I will admit I do. But I don't HAVE to use it either. Infact I disable parts of the addon every so often to change things up for me, and to keep the experience fresh for me.
Now to me, using this type of addon is no different to using a wiki page/looking it up on google for hints/tips on how to complete a mission.
I should clarify: I didn't mean literally taking the patented/copyrighted games; I was using them as examples. One can make variants on them or entirely new "games" that are roughly as simple to grasp.
Honestly, I wouldn't expect "click the glowie" replacements to be anything like as complicated in actual gameplay as those kinds of games. Borrow those kinds of simple mechanics, but don't make it an entire lengthy game. That would be a distraction. What I'm picturing would be something most players could do in 10-30 seconds, probably fluffed to fit whatever kind of glowie you're clicking on. Some sort of tangled-lines "cut the right wire" puzzle to disarm a bomb, or a brief "crack the code" game with clues based on incorrect guesses (and maybe other clues you could have picked up through the mission) for a password, or a "stack the objects so you can carry them out" that may be suspiciouly familiar in its three pyramids of stackable blocks formation. Maybe a short Memory game or the like.
Tangentially, one of my favorite games to play was the swordfighting game in Puzzle Pirates. It's tetris-like, but distinct and unique. Sadly, I didn't enjoy the rest of the puzzles nearly as much, which meant that it wasn't worthwhile to play the game all that long.
Anyway, if it's not optional, it certainly shouldn't be taking you full minutes or longer to do. The idea here is to take the "click the glowie" wait-bar and turn it into something the player can actively do. Make the time it takes mildly skill-based (emphasis on "mildly," as making it too challenging would again distract from the fact that you're playing a hypercompetent super-being) and engaging for the player so that you're not staring and tapping your fingers while hoping nobody hits you. Instead, you're engaged in something and hoping nobody hits you!
And again, adding ways for some powers to help could be fun. Maybe disarming the bomb has a "screw it!" option that lets you rip it out, but now you have to run it to a disposal area before it goes off! (Superspeedsters and/or fliers or super-strength types with good throwing arms, perhaps, would like this option.)
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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I very much like this idea. It would need to be tuned to avoid major griefing. Minor griefing can be fun though. Leeeeeroy Jeeeenkiiiiiiins!
Definitely, it would need much more thorough examination than my throwing it on the wall to see if it sticks can give it, here. But I'm glad it at least sounds potentially fun in concept.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
How hard would it be to do something like Mah Jong or Alchemy? I liked those games.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Anybody else picturing Adam West Batman running around carrying a big black ball with a sparkler on top and encountering nuns or baby ducks everywhere he wants to throw it?
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!!"
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Sometimes you just can't get rid of a bomb.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Thank you Paladin!
Unfortunately, Youtube is among the Forbidden Sites™ my employer blocks.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Segev, I don't know if you've played Star Trek Online or not, but it uses mini-games in places where ordinarily you'd just see a progress bar. Scanning anomalies is a 6 second exercise of matching red to blue sine waves. Mining is a 1 minute "game" of aligning rotating/zooming triangles (repeatedly). Scanning radiation is a 1 minute "game" of aligning square waves onto each other (repeatedly). These mini-games work pretty well at maintaining Player involvement in ACTIVELY playing the game, rather than just sitting back and waiting for a progress bar to complete.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I originally suggested similar actions for noncombat activities and included possibility of noncombat powers (still called skills at the time) that could improve the player's performance (give hints, simplify the puzzle, etc...) but encountered some resistance. Some have even worried over progress bars that are long normally bit can be sped up by noncombat powers. One thing the puzzle aspect of activities that do something other than "click the glowie" can impede is cooperative involvement which is something I want to encourage making noncombat obstacles achievable with team effort. By this i mean stuff like picking a lock can be done with multiple people helping out not move ten blocks to the special markings in the room to open the door type puzzles.
But some people have moved on since then some are still here and we put off the noncombat aspects on purpose. I can bring it up again when we circle back to it and see where the team sits with going a more immersive route.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Hacking into a computer in a lab map or otherwise trying to access it might be doable as some form of hangman type game, The number of letters in the password, clues, number of letters you get to guess at, number of tries to solve, etc all mutable. Another one that comes to mind as a possible puzzle would be like Boggle or linear word search puzzles where you have to find X number of words buried in a grid of letters, and the faster you find the required number, the faster you're done. The grid size could increase as you get to higher levels and even the words themselves can be easier/harder vocabulary words. You could even specify the words need to be a certain length. Another game to look at emulating might be Text Twist, if that's possible. Of course, this is all dependent on players beign able to read English I guess.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Amy puzzling we would implement for immersive interaction (for lack of a better term though it seems quite apt), would have to be designed with the broad range of demographics we intend the game for; children through elderly throughout multiple regions / countries. I've a short list that would seem to fit and even have a way to set up a cooperative experience - whether any of it flies with the rest of the team is another matter. But that's a thing for a later day.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
And for what it's worth, I'd still like to be able to do "Stealth Missions" (ala Secret World) using our Secret ID instead of our Super ID. That way you have an entirely different flavor of challenge ... [i]staying in character for your Secret ID[/i] ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
"Staying in character for your secret ID" would be really, really hard to measure in terms of gameplay metrics. It would probably be necessary to create a single or small list of cover IDs for each mission. Sort of how Batman goes down to the docks as a homeless vagrant, rather than as Bruce Wayne. Doing it that way, the mission writers can provide parameters that measure if you're "out of character."
I'm not sure that would be as satisfying as those who would want to do it as their secret ID would want it to be. It's a neat idea; I am just unsure that it could be done in a computer game.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Well, I would say it is possible, but for what it requires making a game within our game. Basically what goes into making the secret id system as a whole work on the character within the context of the game world involves a lot of work on the back end, and a lot of work for mission creators to make sufficient content so its neither repetitive nor so infrequent as to even be worth the resources in creating it in the first place.
I do hope to be able to implement noncombat powers that allow players to assume faction identities (with limits), to basically "take on a disguise" (how it's done is up to the player whether its a disguise kit, magic, shape shifting ability). But the changes are temporary and not an entire separate id of the same character that has separate faction ratings, doesn't mess with the alignment system, separate "memory" in context of world interactions and so forth.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
What do? Do lots!
Let's see...helping the police, maybe? Showing up at a crime scene, gathering intelligence? Catching a known criminal and leave a nice tied up package outside the police station?
Helping/Not helping the military? Origins! Delve into the mystery of your origins: how did you get your abilities/why did you become a hero? Create custom NPCs you need to talk to during the span of your Origins Story Arc. Even villains to duke it out with!
I also like the public service tasks mentioned here: Help rebuilding after natural disasters, saving people from wrecks, putting out large fires (preferably using your powers to do so)
"I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty"
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I wouldnt mind a mission or two that needed us to Defeat a Jammed Door.. or the like, (like a we did in some Council maps, when we were defeater we had to break out of the prison cell), to rescue some odd number of citizens. :)
Okay, first of all, awesome forum avatar you've got there.
Second ... City of Titans is going to be using a three axis Alignment system.
What if your character's "origin" (in the City of Heroes sense) wasn't something irrevocably chosen at character creation ... but instead was something of a "ring" of Alignments held separate from the above three axis Alignment system?
Essentially what you'd have would be options given to complete tasks in a particular way ... with Training or with Technology or with Magic. How you chose to solve the problem "nudges" the Origin of your Powers in that direction. Solve the tasks that you're given in a particular way consistently enough and you become known as being that particular Origin for your Powers.
Set things up right and you could effectively have "hybrid" Origins, where your character isn't exclusively a single Origin at the expense of another. And because the whole thing would function sort of like an Alignment system, you'd have the option of "growing" your character into different Origins over time if that's what you wanted.
At the moment, I can't think of anything for which such a system would be "useful" beyond simple Character Identity reasons ... but that doesn't mean it would be valueless. If nothing else, it would give us something to "do" with our characters that isn't necessarily tied to earning XP and gaining Levels, and isn't explicitly a case of gaining Faction reputation with specific NPC groups (although, I suppose it could be used that way, eventually).
Although, now that I think about it ... doing some sort of "alignment" system for Origins would make a rather interesting wrinkle/complication for any sort of Crafting system designed after game launch.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Ah, I see what you mean. Yep, that could work. An interesting challenge for scaling/universal application: would everyone on the team have to do the puzzle/activity? If not, what do they do while one person is engaged? Maybe they could fight off mobs...but then how do you make that scenario work for solo play?
Spurn all ye kindle.
Similar to any other action, engage the object, if combat ensues, the object engagement breaks. Teams can keep spawns clear of the player engaging with the object, solo players can clear off the area first or use stealth - in fact the object engagement can be part of the how someone stealths through a mission. That locked door can be busted down but alert others to the character's presence, someone can search out the key carrier and beat him up for the key, or someone can pick the lock (through puzzle solving) to open the door.
And part of the system I hope to see implemented is that just like any other encounter, objects as obstacles (like locked doors, computer control systems, magic wards, bombs, etc...) can be tackled by cooperative play. As it stands currently, it deals with reduction of interaction timers per player engaging with the object - but the puzzle portion isn't included with the systems proposals - if they were to be included and we wanted to retain cooperative play other portion so the proposal would need to be changed, including the noncombat powers that would assist with such activities.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I like a lot of these options but a lot of the time when I come home from work and I'm tired I just want to turn my brain off for a while
so please don't do away with all of the click the glowee missions.
sometimes I can't handle anything more complicated.
In fact maybe whether you get a simple click or a puzzle could be determined by the mission difficulty settings
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Tannim, one way you could handle that is by having a variable interactive.
Baseline objective is X steps to complete.
Additional team members increase the number of steps to complete by +Y per team member.
Multiple team members can engage the objective, allowing parallel completion of the steps.
Design the parallel completion "curve" so that it's not a straight multiplier and you're all set.
So if only one person is engaging the interactable, each step completion is +1. If more than one person is engaging, their contribution is less than +1 individually, but collectively is more than +1 totaled. That way, more people working on the problem is faster, but not "too much" faster.
Once you've got that in place, it would then be possible to provide "distractions" (ie. ambushes) which could divide the Team's attention, but it would be up to the Team in the situation how they want to engage the distraction/diversion. So long as at least one PC keeps working on the problem, cumulative progress is not lost.
The result would be a sort of sliding scale of time to complete the task, creating a "ticking time bomb" scenario suitable for Deathtraps, in which not everyone can be fighting the Big Bad™ at the same time. It also opens up the possibility of allowing Other Factors™ to be important in how effective a particular PC's contribution to the completion is. For example, a Tech Origin or a "computer aptitude" skill on the PC could apply a straight multiplier to their contribution to objective completion. Thus a "locksmith" type character would be great at picking a mechanical lock, but a "techie" would be required to hack a password on a computer. Being a "mage" type of character would be an advantage in dealing with Runes and Wards ... and so on.
So instead of having an overly simplistic "click the glowie" and waiting for the progress bar to complete, and passively sitting there ... instead you click the glowie and are presented with a mini-game that needs to be completed X number of times. The faster the Player can interact with the UI, the faster the task gets completed. If your Teammates help you, the job gets done faster. And some characters may be better suited to particular types of tasks than others, giving them more "credit" towards completion of the task every time they win a round of the mini-game.
The fundamental underlying idea is that given enough Time, Tools and Tech Manuals, any mini-game task can be completed. But Players being the impatient lot that we are will seek ways to [i]optimize[/i] their interactions with such obstacles, so as to limit the time that needs to be spent on them ... and if you've got mini-games that "respond" to differences in PC aspects and aptitudes, you have the makings of a complex and diverse playing experience in which Players [i]choose to specialize[/i] their characters towards completing a subset of tasks which can be an asset to a Team. Create a variety of mini-games to complete within an arc of story content and you've got a reason to bring a diverse cast of specialists to complete your objectives.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
There is far too much involved for me to go into details here but parts of what you suggest simply goes counter to some design intent and some of it )like ambushes) is very
dependent on how the mission is intended to play out and therefore more of a case by case basis.
We are not creating a skill system where there are demolitionists. Lock picks, hackers, etc...Mission obstacles and goals need to be achievable by all, and we want to avoid content creation hinged on "skill specializations". At least very limited specialization. One of the intentions of the noncombat powers is to offer an alternative to how obstacles are negotiated, and each obstacle would have multiple methods of circumvention or engagement. Like having a locked door can be beaten down, the guy with the key can be found and defeated to get the key, or if the player has the object engagement interactive noncombat power they can pick the lock. Keep n mind this noncombat power system may not make it to the game at all.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
So, Badgers will want to take their time to figure out every single mini game to get that Badge, instead of just Beating on the obstacles? ;)
It all sounds quite interesting to me, now that I understand better what you guys have in mind.
Spurn all ye kindle.
At the moment, there are no plans to include any mini-game puzzles as part of mission obstacles. If we do implement noncombat powers, I would be leery of tying badges to the specific action as not having certain noncombat powers would prevent badge collectors from being able to obtain certain badges. Instead, if there were badges connected to obstacles, I would give the badge for negotiating the obstacle itself - not how it was negotiated.
For example the locked door example would award a badge whether it was bashed down, picked via a power interaction, or unlocked with a key.
Again, I must stress that noncombat powers as a whole, along with the possibility of any mini-games for obstacles have not been decided upon and may never become a thing within the game. Right now the base implementation is that obstacles within a mission can be interacted with and will use a timer - that's it for now.
It is my hope (as well as a few other's) that we can include a noncombat powers system along with different ways of going through a mission, different ways of negotiating obstacles and even completing objectives to create diverse builds based on desired game play that don't impact combat capability witin the game. There are others on the team that have a difference in opinion (and their opinions are just as valid) seeking a very simple approach with no diversity in build choice, but offering a diversity in actions based on what the player decides to do, not what the character can do.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Tannim, there's a difference between saying:
[list][*]If you don't have Skill X then you cannot accomplish this task at all
[*]If you do have Skill Y then you can accomplish this task in half the time[/list]
So normally a task that would take 10 seconds to complete could be done in 5 seconds ... instead of being something along the lines of "don't have then don't even try" ... if you're following the direction of thinking I was laying out.
After that, it's just a matter of figuring out how to let more than one PC interact with the same task, so it isn't just a 1 person click and everyone waits. Result? Time to complete tasks can be variable, depending on who is doing what (and who is "good at" what). That way, the experience isn't exactly the same every time you run it ... increasing replay value.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Is that more for a thing for one or two Task Forces. Statesman? 4 Pillars?
Actually, Izzy, I was thinking in terms of simply varying the task difficulties with Team size. So something that might take a soloist all of 10 seconds to do could take a single PC from a team of 8 all of 60 seconds to do ... but if more PCs on the team "help" with the task, the time to complete gets shorter than 60 seconds.
In other words, completion times (or repetitions if using a mini-game like Star Trek Online does) for tasks would scale with Team Size ... in much the same way that the NPCs to "beat up" in missions also scales with Team Size. The ... quantity ... of hostile NPCs to fight increases as Team Size increases. By the same token, I'm arguing that it would be interesting to have the "requirements" to interact with Glowies (or whatever) scale with Team Size as well, such that interactive tasks can either be done solo over a longer period of time by a single PC, or faster, cooperatively, by multiple (or all) PCs on a Team.
By allowing multiple PCs to engage in a specific interactive task concurrently, you build in flexibility for how tasks can be completed by soloists/teams playing that content. You also avoid mandate requirements of "must have 4 Players click 4 widely dispersed Glowies simultaneously" as was done (repeatedly) on the Dr. Quaterfield TF, or even the excessively egregious case of the "must have 8 Players click the 8 widely dispersed Glowies simultaneously" in the Cavern of Transcendence.
By putting things onto a sliding scale, you give Players [i]incentives[/i] to work cooperatively, as opposed to [i]requirements[/i] which if not met exactly produce a failure condition. Conversely, the incentive structure rewards having more than one Team member "ninja" their way to the objective, again reinforcing the group dynamics and social aspect(s) of Teaming and gaming together.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yea, I can see that work, as long as the Type of Interactive makes sense to have more than one person Work on it.
But just having 10 people swarm over a Single Glowie Box seems like a unpopular thing... and players will avoid it.
2 Players at most might do it. The rest might not be too eager to Huddle Up for a group Hug all the time. ;)
We, unless i'm the only Guy on team. Then its OK. ;D
I know there's a joke somewhere there with CopperField and Cop-A-Feel.. but I cant make it! :<
Also it should depend on just what they're trying to do.
Too many cooks spoil the soup you know,
and I think defusing a bomb should always use as few people as possible.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGrOK8oZG8
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMcQdRLgVpMwXi_3yTCN5iA/videos
Doesn't have to be a single Glowie. It could be a set of "linked" Glowies arranged around a (control?) room. Heck, it could even be set up such that there's one Glowie per PC on the Team, so as to give everyone their own interactive point (sort yourselves out, kids).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I could see that. Mission with one hero: "The Mad Bomber has set up a bomb to go off at midnight!"
Mission with 4 heroes: "The Mad Bomber has set up 4 bombs to go off at midnight!"
Or even a mission with 8 heroes: "The Mad Bomber and rogue geneticist has set up 4 bombs to go off and there's a savage hedgehog/wolverine hybrid guarding each one!"
Remember how we had powers in trays in CoX (of course you do, bear with me). Would it be that hard to have a glowwie pop up a tray with, say, 4 buttons on it (like square, triangle, plus, and minus or something) then when you're interacting with the glowwie, it'll tell you to repeat a sequence of symbols. You have to click the buttons as the symbols appear on screen or else you lose progress. Get a certain number of symbols matched and you're done. For a harder time, make it like "when square appears, press plus, when plus appears press square, when triangle appears press minus, when minus appears press triangle" and so forth. And of course you could vary the speed that the game spits them out at you as well.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
You want us to play Simon Says?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Possible to do, yes. Likely to go that route of we do end up implementing interactive puzzles? - probably not. Purely to avoid messing with the main gui which in a game like this will be cluttered enough, every time we discuss something that can affect how the gui is used / can be cluttered / interfere or complicate custom set ups we do our best to stream line it. That and far easier to create a screen to work with its own gui than to continuously tack onto the main gui.
Using a separate mini-game "screen" allows us to use more than one type of mini-game too.
Oh and Red, I track what your saying. I'm working on some other stuff now but will keep up with this thread for when i can get back to update the noncombat activities. I think you'll like what i put together (if it ever happens).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
One thing not mentioned about the Star Trek Online style of mini-game is that in STO, you can just skip or abort the mini-game, and get a lesser reward. I'd figure that the CoT team would want to go a similar route, not hinging outright mission success or failure on the outcome of a mini-game, but instead just the scale of rewards.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
For glowies, I'd imagine that failing/aborting would do the same thing that it did if you quit before the timer ran down in CoH: progress is lost and you have to do it again. I would not picture these being difficult enough that anybody could fail if they had unlimited time. Ideally, "thirty seconds" would be functionally equivalent to "unlimited time" in this context, due to the simplicity. Challenge should enter into it only in the sense that you feel a bit rushed due to the threat of being hit and knocked out of the "glowie game" and having to start over. With skill, it should take no more than 5-10 seconds to pull them off, as a ballpark figure (and running off memories of how frustrating glowie-timers were when they took much longer than that).
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You mean like Wildstar have done for some of their stuff?
They also have a DDR minigame that you can play (out of combat area thankfully).
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