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What can we expect when MWM becomes a professional studio?

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The Hybrid
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What can we expect when MWM becomes a professional studio?

Not sure if there's a solid answer, but I just learned of this after rereading my thread regarding the possible 2020 release (https://cityoftitans.com/forum/2020). Tannim222 stated that Missing Worlds Media would be transitioning from being a volunteer studio to a professional one. This really got me interested, because MWM has done a lot of good as a volunteer studio, but that has obvious limitations when game developing has to be balanced out with everything else. As a professional studio, this would allow the company to devote much more time and resources to the game (especially after the Second Chance event).

So if I may ask, what can be expected from the transition? And, if we may know the answer (I understand if this isn't something that can be answered at the moment, but hey, it's worth a shot) when will this be happening?

I know the plan has been to find a good publisher to distribute the game, but they're waiting for the right time. If they relied on a publisher to develop the game, they would have a lot less leverage in the deal, compared to having built up CoT itself. Wouldn't want to forfeit ownership and risk this game going the way of its predecessor.

I'm just really excited right now, because City of Titans has been something I've looked forward to since I first learned of it, and I feel like we're nearing the release at long last with the Second Chance and the beta certainly dropping this year, and who knows what comes after that.

Thanks.

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"What can be expected"

"What can be expected" anything and nothing :p

Kelgore Universe (my various toons)

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When they become Pro, the

When they become Pro, the devs will be happier and Paid.

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This is actually a really

This is actually a really good question. The change could affect everything from workflow to job duties to forum posts.

Schedules could drastically change, as could finances, which would drastically change release tables or the second chance or more.

It could lead to the addition of a full time PR abd community relations team, or it could go the way of Blizzard where nothing is said at all outside of official announcements.

It's not as simple as "now they're paid".

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Of course it's not simple.

Of course it's not simple. Being Paid changes a lot.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I hear NCSoft has a history

I hear NCSoft has a history of publishing hero-type MMO games.

[puts on flame-proof suit and glare resistant glasses]

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Rezulin wrote:
Rezulin wrote:

I hear NCSoft has a history of publishing hero-type MMO games.

[puts on flame-proof suit and glare resistant glasses]

No they don’t, they kill them.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Rezulin wrote:

I hear NCSoft has a history of publishing hero-type MMO games.

[puts on flame-proof suit and glare resistant glasses]

No they don’t, they kill them.

If it bleeds, it can be killed?

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I'm curious about this stuff

I'm curious about this stuff as well, though I expect MWM isn't ready to discuss most of it.

A huge part of the transition to a live game will be putting a support structure in place to deal with problem tickets etc. The old game was pretty good about having a support person show up (as a police drone) within 15-30 min in a mission that was stuck. That takes a good number of staff to achieve. Since CoT won't have separate servers for time zones/areas, that also means staffing through the night to support other parts of the world.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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It will be interesting to see

It will be interesting to see what balance is struck between:
> Limited self-service of problem tickets (slash commands to force a player respawn, method to reset a bugged mission, or even bypass a perpetually bugged mission as CoH eventually did with the mission complete feature)
> Teaming and powerset workarounds (techniques or powers that can resolve certain support issues by using game rules, e.g. teleport ally to get someone unstuck or pets with partial exemptions to LoS that can hit enemies that are stuck in walls)
> Community support (some of us sign up, prove we're responsible, and can respond to chat broadcasts for help using limited GM tools to reset spawns, teleport lost enemies, etc. but not grant rewards)
> Traditional customer support (submit ticket, wait for someone with expanded GM tools who can restore destroyed items, grant rewards, and other extreme methods to fix a problem)

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I think a good publisher to

I think a good publisher to distribute City of Titans would be THQ Nordic. For those who don't know, they're an Austrian publisher who have the goal of bridging the gap between indie and AAA, one that has widened in recent years. They've acquired numerous dead IPs and a large number of studios, and are focused on delivery a wide variety of games that aren't the high-tier blockbusters or the indie hits that were once so common but have fallen in this scary industry. For me, I think THQ Nordic would love to distribute a game like this and promote it to a wider audience. Plus, since they're not like NCSoft who kill games and hold their bodies hostage, I can see them maintaining it well.

More info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THQ_Nordic

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What can we expect when MWM

What can we expect when MWM becomes a professional studio?

They all move into a black glass high rise skyscraper.
there will be a free breakfast cereal bar.
Starbucks will be located in the lobby, and the 4th, 8th, and 12th floors.
We will all be hired. I get 9th floor corner office with the best view.
Dr Tyche gets a totally hot secretary. and a goldfish.
Tannim will be the moral officer and we will learn he really does have a red crowbar.
Cyclops and Lothic will have a secret physics lab in the basement.
The artists will all earn extra money by selling personal OC art. (and they need it because all artists are starving)
The artists will hog the breakfast bar.
We will find out that Dr Tyche is more than just the boss...he really IS out to take over the world!

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

I think a good publisher to distribute City of Titans would be THQ Nordic. For those who don't know, they're an Austrian publisher who have the goal of bridging the gap between indie and AAA, one that has widened in recent years. They've acquired numerous dead IPs and a large number of studios, and are focused on delivery a wide variety of games that aren't the high-tier blockbusters or the indie hits that were once so common but have fallen in this scary industry. For me, I think THQ Nordic would love to distribute a game like this and promote it to a wider audience. Plus, since they're not like NCSoft who kill games and hold their bodies hostage, I can see them maintaining it well.

More info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THQ_Nordic

I remember when THQ went bankrupt and Nordic Games bought up the Darksiders IP during the auction. That's about all I know about what became of THQ, other than they released another Darksiders game.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Dr Tyche gets a totally hot secretary. and a goldfish.

The goldfish is just eye candy though because she can’t answer the phones.

The Hybrid
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

I think a good publisher to distribute City of Titans would be THQ Nordic. For those who don't know, they're an Austrian publisher who have the goal of bridging the gap between indie and AAA, one that has widened in recent years. They've acquired numerous dead IPs and a large number of studios, and are focused on delivery a wide variety of games that aren't the high-tier blockbusters or the indie hits that were once so common but have fallen in this scary industry. For me, I think THQ Nordic would love to distribute a game like this and promote it to a wider audience. Plus, since they're not like NCSoft who kill games and hold their bodies hostage, I can see them maintaining it well.

More info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THQ_Nordic

I remember when THQ went bankrupt and Nordic Games bought up the Darksiders IP during the auction. That's about all I know about what became of THQ, other than they released another Darksiders game.

Nordic Games bought the THQ trademark and rebranded themselves as THQ Nordic. They're not the most A-list company, but that's arguably a good thing because "A-list" means Activision and EA. I don't ever want CoT to end up with them. THQ Nordic looks like the company the fits the game most, as a large-scale company that's focused on delivering mid-level games that appeal to core audience without dumbing down or being formulaic. In fact, opposite of killing games, their goal appears to be to resurrect dead IPs and ideas, which fits CoT as well. The IPs they're likely bringing back include Timesplitters, Carmageddon, Outcast, Red Faction, Saints Row, MX vs. ATV, Destroy All Humans, Darksiders, Alone in the Dark, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning and more. Plus, they embrace new ideas, like the upcoming Biomutant (a game about playing as a mutated raccoon in an open world full of mutated animals, and yes this is a thing) which I don't think other publishers would do for the out-there premise.

I've been keeping up with them lately and it's insane how there's always news of them resurrecting dead IPs, acquiring mid-low tier studios, and helping to bring more games to the market, almost every time I look. They probably would've gotten City of Heroes itself if NCSoft was willing to play ball.

Granted, I don't think MWM can disclose who they're hoping to publish the game yet, but if it's them I'd be pretty happy about it.

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Does Missign Worlds Media

Does Missign Worlds Media NEED a publisher for CoT? In my experience publishers can often be more trouble than they are worth, especially during these days of digital download. See: Activision and especially EA (and the trail of murdered developers they have left behind). Some indie games seem to find success and acclaim without them.

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They've stated they are

They've stated they are looking for a publisher to distribute the game, but want to develop it independently of them so they would have far greater leverage and creative control when it comes to the dealings. It makes sense, because MWM isn't to the point where they independently distribute the game to a wide audience by themselves. The ones that do that are at the professional stage and far bigger... and even then, it's still not easy. With a publisher, they can get more funds, a much larger reach, and an easier time distributing, but yeah they do need to have creative control and not risk this going the way of CoH.

An example of this method is fellow Kickstarted game Kingdom Come: Deliverance. It was independently developed, but still published by Deep Silver (which coincidentally was acquired by THQ Nordic later). Another example, Yooka-Laylee, an independent Kickstarter game that was published by Team17.

I don't think MWM would consider Activision and EA, for that reason. But there are still plenty of good publishers out there, like the aforementioned THQ Nordic, who could help without the greed and meddling like those two. I just hope whoever they choose, they choose someone good... and read the fine print.

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

I think a good publisher to distribute City of Titans would be THQ Nordic. For those who don't know, they're an Austrian publisher who have the goal of bridging the gap between indie and AAA, one that has widened in recent years. They've acquired numerous dead IPs and a large number of studios, and are focused on delivery a wide variety of games that aren't the high-tier blockbusters or the indie hits that were once so common but have fallen in this scary industry. For me, I think THQ Nordic would love to distribute a game like this and promote it to a wider audience. Plus, since they're not like NCSoft who kill games and hold their bodies hostage, I can see them maintaining it well.

More info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THQ_Nordic

I remember when THQ went bankrupt and Nordic Games bought up the Darksiders IP during the auction. That's about all I know about what became of THQ, other than they released another Darksiders game.

Nordic Games bought the THQ trademark and rebranded themselves as THQ Nordic. They're not the most A-list company, but that's arguably a good thing because "A-list" means Activision and EA. I don't ever want CoT to end up with them. THQ Nordic looks like the company the fits the game most, as a large-scale company that's focused on delivering mid-level games that appeal to core audience without dumbing down or being formulaic. In fact, opposite of killing games, their goal appears to be to resurrect dead IPs and ideas, which fits CoT as well. The IPs they're likely bringing back include Timesplitters, Carmageddon, Outcast, Red Faction, Saints Row, MX vs. ATV, Destroy All Humans, Darksiders, Alone in the Dark, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning and more. Plus, they embrace new ideas, like the upcoming Biomutant (a game about playing as a mutated raccoon in an open world full of mutated animals, and yes this is a thing) which I don't think other publishers would do for the out-there premise.

I've been keeping up with them lately and it's insane how there's always news of them resurrecting dead IPs, acquiring mid-low tier studios, and helping to bring more games to the market, almost every time I look. They probably would've gotten City of Heroes itself if NCSoft was willing to play ball.

Granted, I don't think MWM can disclose who they're hoping to publish the game yet, but if it's them I'd be pretty happy about it.

Good to know, thanks for the info!

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I hereby retract my THQ

I hereby retract my THQ Nordic suggestion in the wake of recent events.

https://www.newsweek.com/thq-nordic-ama-8chan-games-twitter-mark-1345068

Unfortunate. Wonder if they’ll retract their decision and blame it on a “rogue employee” or something.

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

I hereby retract my THQ Nordic suggestion in the wake of recent events.

https://www.newsweek.com/thq-nordic-ama-8chan-games-twitter-mark-1345068

Unfortunate. Wonder if they’ll retract their decision and blame it on a “rogue employee” or something.

That's too bad. Thanks for keeping us informed on this. I doubt MWM would want to be even indirectly related to any of that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

I hereby retract my THQ Nordic suggestion in the wake of recent events.

https://www.newsweek.com/thq-nordic-ama-8chan-games-twitter-mark-1345068

Unfortunate. Wonder if they’ll retract their decision and blame it on a “rogue employee” or something.

So I couldn't help noticing the quoted article seemed a bit one sided. Some balance seems in order.

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/02/thq-nordics-ama-on-8chan-causes-game-journalists-to-get-butthurt-and-spaz-out/77985/

I wonder if the AMA thread is still up? Might be nice to see what the fuss was about after all. I suppose I should warn folks that the chans are "not for everyone" by a longshot, but it seldom seems to do any good.

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Found the 1st thread of the

Found the 1st thread of the AMA. As one poster noted in the thread where I found the link, it was "pretty tame for 8chan". While I agree with that, I feel I should explain further. Most folks posting on 8chan or any other chan, do so as Anonymous. There is no further identification given. And on threads of any length, there is usually stuff that is widely considered offensive. In fact it's SO prevalent there that you quickly learn to ignore it and filter it out in a way you wouldn't on other sites. The site also gives you an upfront warning about being 18+ to view it. Ignore that warning, and all others I have given, at your OWN risk.

https://archive.is/6bwrG

Now you have the ability to judge for yourselves firsthand.

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I fail to see a problem with

I fail to see a problem with THQ.
Looks like they were approached by a site with a decent sized community that values free speech at the cost of everything else (which is an interesting debate by itself), and accepted without considering the perpetually offended Internet. In a way I applaud it.

Most likely it was a mistake- I've never heard of 8chan until today. Might have been the same for THQ who figured it was just a reddit or 4chan clone.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I fail to see a problem with THQ.
Looks like they were approached by a site with a decent sized community that values free speech at the cost of everything else (which is an interesting debate by itself), and accepted without considering the perpetually offended Internet. In a way I applaud it.

Most likely it was a mistake- I've never heard of 8chan until today. Might have been the same for THQ who figured it was just a reddit or 4chan clone.

Free speech is one thing. The "chan" thing is something else. It'd be kind of like causally asking Hitler to be a "celebrity spokesperson" for your product.

If a game company like THQ doesn't mind been associated even to the tiniest degree with a site universally renowned for distributing child porn for starters they need all the help they can get.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Granted, they said it was a

Granted, they said it was a big mistake. One they might not live down for a while.

Seriously, why couldn't they host an AMA on Reddit like everyone else?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I fail to see a problem with THQ.
Looks like they were approached by a site with a decent sized community that values free speech at the cost of everything else (which is an interesting debate by itself), and accepted without considering the perpetually offended Internet. In a way I applaud it.

Most likely it was a mistake- I've never heard of 8chan until today. Might have been the same for THQ who figured it was just a reddit or 4chan clone.

Free speech is one thing. The "chan" thing is something else. It'd be kind of like causally asking Hitler to be a "celebrity spokesperson" for your product.

If a game company like THQ doesn't mind been associated even to the tiniest degree with a site universally renowned for distributing child porn for starters they need all the help they can get.

Ah the child porn angle. Suppose that, for a moment, such an accusation is supposed isn't meant to immediately stop all discussion? I can't, with any certainty, say it doesn't exist there as it's a vast and continually expanding site. I know that it it against the rules and mods are supposed to act against it. Here is the relevant quotation of 8chan's global rule.

Do not post, request, or link to any content that is illegal in the United States of America and do not create boards with the purpose of posting or spreading such content.

So, as child pornography is well known to be illegal in the US, it's illegal on 8chan too. (I also disagree that it would be "universally reknown" in any case, but I have a more interesting case to make.)

Here's what's interesting to me about these accusations being tossed liberally around. Is there any proof?

Fun little catch-22 isn't it? How can you prove it without being complicit in distributing it? But wait! There's MORE!!

The corollary is that you can spread accusations WITHOUT EVER NEEDING TO PROVIDE PROOF.

Think about it. Child pornography is such a HORRIBLE thing that causes lifelong lasting damage. And the mere accusation is often taken at face value, causing all discussion to cease. This is pretty public knowledge.

Speaking of public knowledge, how could 8chan continue to operate if it's this great hub of child pornography? Doesn't really add up does it?

I'm not saying anyone has to like 8chan. Saying it's very often offensive is like saying there's water in the ocean in that it really doesn't convey volume. But the only way you will prove or disprove the child pornography accusations is to go there and see for yourself. You can do it now or later this week.

Because it will still be a legal site, and that should be telling right there.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I fail to see a problem with THQ.
Looks like they were approached by a site with a decent sized community that values free speech at the cost of everything else (which is an interesting debate by itself), and accepted without considering the perpetually offended Internet. In a way I applaud it.

Most likely it was a mistake- I've never heard of 8chan until today. Might have been the same for THQ who figured it was just a reddit or 4chan clone.

It's not quite a 4chan clone as it has some rather distinct features like being able to make your own board. 8chan really came into it's own after certain events in September 2014 caused a mass migration from 4chan. I'm fairly sure they knew where they were. But yes, it's a less well known site and the regulars seem to like it that way.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
Lothic wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I fail to see a problem with THQ.
Looks like they were approached by a site with a decent sized community that values free speech at the cost of everything else (which is an interesting debate by itself), and accepted without considering the perpetually offended Internet. In a way I applaud it.

Most likely it was a mistake- I've never heard of 8chan until today. Might have been the same for THQ who figured it was just a reddit or 4chan clone.

Free speech is one thing. The "chan" thing is something else. It'd be kind of like causally asking Hitler to be a "celebrity spokesperson" for your product.

If a game company like THQ doesn't mind been associated even to the tiniest degree with a site universally renowned for distributing child porn for starters they need all the help they can get.

Ah the child porn angle. Suppose that, for a moment, such an accusation is supposed isn't meant to immediately stop all discussion? I can't, with any certainty, say it doesn't exist there as it's a vast and continually expanding site. I know that it it against the rules and mods are supposed to act against it. Here is the relevant quotation of 8chan's global rule.

Do not post, request, or link to any content that is illegal in the United States of America and do not create boards with the purpose of posting or spreading such content.

So, as child pornography is well known to be illegal in the US, it's illegal on 8chan too. (I also disagree that it would be "universally reknown" in any case, but I have a more interesting case to make.)

Here's what's interesting to me about these accusations being tossed liberally around. Is there any proof?

Fun little catch-22 isn't it? How can you prove it without being complicit in distributing it? But wait! There's MORE!!

The corollary is that you can spread accusations WITHOUT EVER NEEDING TO PROVIDE PROOF.

Think about it. Child pornography is such a HORRIBLE thing that causes lifelong lasting damage. And the mere accusation is often taken at face value, causing all discussion to cease. This is pretty public knowledge.

Speaking of public knowledge, how could 8chan continue to operate if it's this great hub of child pornography? Doesn't really add up does it?

I'm not saying anyone has to like 8chan. Saying it's very often offensive is like saying there's water in the ocean in that it really doesn't convey volume. But the only way you will prove or disprove the child pornography accusations is to go there and see for yourself. You can do it now or later this week.

Because it will still be a legal site, and that should be telling right there.

Wow, you spun that around a few times... touch a nerve of some kind?

For what it's worth I couldn't care less what THQ ultimately does vis-à-vis 8chan. I effectively couldn't care less if there's actually child porn related to 8chan. I'm not going to personally find out regardless because, well, do I even have to explain that? To add to the list of things I couldn't care less about I don't even care if 8chan has been "falsely accused" of any other bad things in general or not. That site having an overtly "infamous reputation" is quite enough for me, thanks.

BTW, I need no PROOF of any of this either way - sometimes hearsay is all you really need. Somebody once told me drinking sulfuric acid was bad. I haven't really bothered to verify that myself but it seems likely enough based on how many times I've heard sulfuric acid is a bad thing to drink. *shrugs*

I'd probably only worry about all this if MWM showed absolutely any motivation/indication to involve themselves on that site but since I suspect they won't I can again not care less.

P.S. I've mentioned from time-to-time that I like to play Devil's Advocate here mostly just for fun. But even I wouldn't bother to take the side of something like 8chan even if you could show me some irrefutable proof that there's nothing crappy going on there. Even I have standards once in a while...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I fail to see a problem with THQ.
Looks like they were approached by a site with a decent sized community that values free speech at the cost of everything else (which is an interesting debate by itself), and accepted without considering the perpetually offended Internet. In a way I applaud it.

Applaud it? Really? Do you like to falsely yell "Fire!" in crowded theaters too? So much for Libertarian Absolutes...

I'm actually pretty far from being a "millennial snowflake" in terms of what "perpetually offends" me on the Internet. For one thing the math is all wrong - I'm at least twice as old as most of them for starters. Also to put things in perspective I have never once "blocked/ignored" anyone on any website/game ever; why bother is my mindset on that.

But for some reason even the hint of the possible involvement of -anything- related to a few lingering buzz-worthy topics, like child porn for instance, is enough to keep me "perpetually offended". I'm sorry I'm not quite as liberated on that topic as you seem to be.

Like I told Impulse King I couldn't care less if there was someone out there who could prove without a shadow of a doubt that 8chan is not involved with child porn in any way whatsoever. Like they say where there's smoke there's fire and frankly I don't mind taking on the "overly-sensitive snowflake" attitude in this case even if that makes me look "un-hip" or whatever the youngsters say now-a-days.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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If they're distributing child

If they're distributing child porn (something that's illegal pretty much everywhere) but haven't been shut down... I'd say that's a failure that goes way beyond THQ accepting an invite to do an AMA and we have much more important things to worry about as a society.

In all fairness, it wouldn't be the first time an organization or website has been falsely accused of doing some really nasty things by people with different political affiliations as themselves.

Without knowing anything about 8chan short of what's in this thread, when I see people on Twitter lumping "right wing" and "child porn" together as if they're the same, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

All that said, I stand by my original assessment. Sounds like someone accepted an invite without doing the research into who was sending the invite.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wow, you spun that around a few times... touch a nerve of some kind?

I spun it around because I find that enjoyable. About touching a nerve? Well I don't deny I visit and enjoy 4chan and 8chan almost daily. But mostly I wanted to highlight how accusations of child pornography can be used dishonestly to stop discussion, as I believe it was used regarding this AMA.

Lothic wrote:

For what it's worth I couldn't care less what THQ ultimately does vis-à-vis 8chan. I effectively couldn't care less if there's actually child porn related to 8chan. I'm not going to personally find out regardless because, well, do I even have to explain that? To add to the list of things I couldn't care less about I don't even care if 8chan has been "falsely accused" of any other bad things in general or not. That site having an overtly "infamous reputation" is quite enough for me, thanks.

BTW, I need no PROOF of any of this either way - sometimes hearsay is all you really need. Somebody once told me drinking sulfuric acid was bad. I haven't really bothered to verify that myself but it seems likely enough based on how many times I've heard sulfuric acid is a bad thing to drink. *shrugs*

And that's fine. Most folks wouldn't enjoy the chans in the same way I do. To each their own.

Lothic wrote:

I'd probably only worry about all this if MWM showed absolutely any motivation/indication to involve themselves on that site but since I suspect they won't I can again not care less.

P.S. I've mentioned from time-to-time that I like to play Devil's Advocate here mostly just for fun. But even I wouldn't bother to take the side of something like 8chan even if you could show me some irrefutable proof that there's nothing crappy going on there. Even I have standards once in a while...

And again that's fine. I'm defending 8chan in this instance because A. I enjoy weird challenges, and B. As I said I think these particular accusations are being used dishonestly. Now make no mistake, there is PLENTY of "crappy" going on there! (More than you likely will ever know as it happens.) But I just don't find it reasonable that 8chan is guilty in the way being represented here.

Lothic I respect you a lot, but I think it's entirely fair to point out I have more actual knowledge of 8chan. To mangle a Q quote, "It's a place to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

If they're distributing child porn (something that's illegal pretty much everywhere) but haven't been shut down... I'd say that's a failure that goes way beyond THQ accepting an invite to do an AMA and we have much more important things to worry about as a society.

In all fairness, it wouldn't be the first time an organization or website has been falsely accused of doing some really nasty things by people with different political affiliations as themselves.

Without knowing anything about 8chan short of what's in this thread, when I see people on Twitter lumping "right wing" and "child porn" together as if they're the same, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

Obviously the "right wing" has no monopoly on "child porn". But 8chan (with its 4 chan refugees) does lean to the right and "for some reason" child porn keeps coming up over and over again as a topic related to it. I didn't make any of that up for what it's worth - I'm just the messenger here.

Turns out I'm probably only the 7th or 8th billion person to "accuse" 8chan of anything. They firmed up their reality and/or reputation on all sorts of cringe-worthy things long before I heard of it myself. I'm honored that you think I'm taking some kind of "bravely heroic SJW" stance on this topic but I'm again probably one of the last people around to be parroting what practically everyone knows whether you lean left or right politically.

I realize you think I'm a bit of a "kook" when it comes to arguing about things related to CoT and frankly I'm even willing to stand guilty as charged for that most of the time. But I promise if you decide to become some kind of "chan-appologist" based solely on what you've read here (and/or perhaps your lingering dislike for me personally) you're only doing yourself a grave disservice.

As you say you are ignorant of 8chan - you might as well bother to learn at least -something- about it before you decide to be pro or con.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wow, you spun that around a few times... touch a nerve of some kind?

I spun it around because I find that enjoyable. About touching a nerve? Well I don't deny I visit and enjoy 4chan and 8chan almost daily. But mostly I wanted to highlight how accusations of child pornography can be used dishonestly to stop discussion, as I believe it was used regarding this AMA.

Lothic wrote:

For what it's worth I couldn't care less what THQ ultimately does vis-à-vis 8chan. I effectively couldn't care less if there's actually child porn related to 8chan. I'm not going to personally find out regardless because, well, do I even have to explain that? To add to the list of things I couldn't care less about I don't even care if 8chan has been "falsely accused" of any other bad things in general or not. That site having an overtly "infamous reputation" is quite enough for me, thanks.

BTW, I need no PROOF of any of this either way - sometimes hearsay is all you really need. Somebody once told me drinking sulfuric acid was bad. I haven't really bothered to verify that myself but it seems likely enough based on how many times I've heard sulfuric acid is a bad thing to drink. *shrugs*

And that's fine. Most folks wouldn't enjoy the chans in the same way I do. To each their own.

Lothic wrote:

I'd probably only worry about all this if MWM showed absolutely any motivation/indication to involve themselves on that site but since I suspect they won't I can again not care less.

P.S. I've mentioned from time-to-time that I like to play Devil's Advocate here mostly just for fun. But even I wouldn't bother to take the side of something like 8chan even if you could show me some irrefutable proof that there's nothing crappy going on there. Even I have standards once in a while...

And again that's fine. I'm defending 8chan in this instance because A. I enjoy weird challenges, and B. As I said I think these particular accusations are being used dishonestly. Now make no mistake, there is PLENTY of "crappy" going on there! (More than you likely will ever know as it happens.) But I just don't find it reasonable that 8chan is guilty in the way being represented here.

Lothic I respect you a lot, but I think it's entirely fair to point out I have more actual knowledge of 8chan. To mangle a Q quote, "It's a place to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

Just because you choose to dabble in the "chans" and I don't doesn't mean I'm some kind of innocent wallflower. I've been to some back-alleys in Singapore that would likely make your head spin. If you're interested you can begin by looking up what Orchard Towers and Geylang are famous for. ;)

Look I get that you think you're "supercool" because you go to several "controversial" websites. I'm even willing to accept that your personal knowledge of those sites is far greater than mine and likely always will be at least as long as I have a security clearance to worry about - you should hear what government security experts have told me about your "happy" little websites. But seriously trying to imply stuff like, "It's not really as bad as EVERYONE says it is" is not the best advertisement for them. Even you would have to admit that.

Like you say to each their own... I just can't really see any "upside" to your particular exercise in Devil's Advocacy in this case. *shrugs*

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I realize you think I'm a bit of a "kook" when it comes to arguing about things related to CoT and frankly I'm even willing to stand guilty as charged for that most of the time. But I promise if you decide to become some kind of "chan-appologist" based solely on what you've read here (and/or perhaps your lingering dislike for me personally) you're only doing yourself a grave disservice.

As you say you are ignorant of 8chan - you might as well bother to learn at least -something- about it before you decide to be pro or con.

I don't dislike you, and I'm being neither pro nor con. I'm just offering a hypothesis as to why THQ Nordic might have accepted the invite.

If you don't know anything about an organization other than left leaning sources acuse them of being right leaning, you might make the "mistake" of hearing them out.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I realize you think I'm a bit of a "kook" when it comes to arguing about things related to CoT and frankly I'm even willing to stand guilty as charged for that most of the time. But I promise if you decide to become some kind of "chan-appologist" based solely on what you've read here (and/or perhaps your lingering dislike for me personally) you're only doing yourself a grave disservice.

As you say you are ignorant of 8chan - you might as well bother to learn at least -something- about it before you decide to be pro or con.

I don't dislike you, and I'm being neither pro nor con. I'm just offering a hypothesis as to why THQ Nordic might have accepted the invite.

Pure ignorance it sounds like to me.

warlocc wrote:

If you don't know anything about an organization other than left leaning sources acuse them of being right leaning, you might make the "mistake" of hearing them out.

What I know about it comes mostly from the government/military security experts I work with. You are free to assume those folks are "left leaning" or "right leaning" as you choose.

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You think THQ gets regular

You think THQ gets regular security updates about 8chan from military security experts?

We're talking about THQ, not you.

Methinks you like to argue a little too much, you start seeing stuff that's not being said or suggested.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

You think THQ gets regular security updates about 8chan from military security experts?

We're talking about THQ, not you.

Methinks you like to argue a little too much, you start seeing stuff that's not being said or suggested.

Not really my fault what people know or don't know. Just saying it takes absolutely no "expert" knowledge to get a reasonable assessment of this situation one way or the other - the evidence has long been "in the wild" so to speak. It's like I was trying to explain to Impulse King: He can defend it all he likes but I'm not really going to be the type of person he's going to "flip" regarding something like this. If he wants to waste energy trying to convince other people that's his deal.

Let's just let THQ do its thing, let Impulse King do his thing and you can decide if you want to care about it one way or another yourself. As always YMMV.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Just because you choose to dabble in the "chans" and I don't doesn't mean I'm some kind of innocent wallflower. I've been to some back-alleys in Singapore that would likely make your head spin. If you're interested you can begin by looking up what Orchard Towers and Geylang are famous for. ;)

Look I get that you think you're "supercool" because you go to several "controversial" websites. I'm even willing to accept that your personal knowledge of those sites is far greater than mine and likely always will be at least as long as I have a security clearance to worry about - you should hear what government security experts have told me about your "happy" little websites. But seriously trying to imply stuff like, "It's not really as bad as EVERYONE says it is" is not the best advertisement for them. Even you would have to admit that.

Like you say to each their own... I just can't really see any "upside" to your particular exercise in Devil's Advocacy in this case. *shrugs*

Hey I never said you were an innocent wallflower. And answering questions YOU asked has nothing to do with my ego.

Lurking on /k/ actually DOES give an idea of what government folks think. (/pol/ probably does too, but that's not a board I really go to.)

And again, what I'm saying is very narrow and specific to a particular thread which I've posted an archived* link to previously. (To be fair, I've no idea what government security experts may think about archive sites, or if you're allowed to view them.) The "upside" is that I believe I'm right, but want to encourage folks to judge for themselves. Assuming folks are of legal age, I don't see the harm.

*8chan has a fondness for archive links because they cannot be edited afterwards. They are forever accurate representations of what was said. Unlike wikipedia.

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Missing Worlds Media, Inc. is

Missing Worlds Media, Inc. is looking for a publisher? That's news to me. Where is that rumor coming from? I found this misinformation on the TVTropes site this week as well (I think we are planning on correcting that). We ARE a publisher last I knew and not just a development company. The change to "professional" will simply mean we can pay our people as regular staff and they won't have to rely on other organizations to support themselves and can work full time on our projects.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

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Guess that answers that.

Guess that answers that.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Just because you choose to dabble in the "chans" and I don't doesn't mean I'm some kind of innocent wallflower. I've been to some back-alleys in Singapore that would likely make your head spin. If you're interested you can begin by looking up what Orchard Towers and Geylang are famous for. ;)

Look I get that you think you're "supercool" because you go to several "controversial" websites. I'm even willing to accept that your personal knowledge of those sites is far greater than mine and likely always will be at least as long as I have a security clearance to worry about - you should hear what government security experts have told me about your "happy" little websites. But seriously trying to imply stuff like, "It's not really as bad as EVERYONE says it is" is not the best advertisement for them. Even you would have to admit that.

Like you say to each their own... I just can't really see any "upside" to your particular exercise in Devil's Advocacy in this case. *shrugs*

Hey I never said you were an innocent wallflower. And answering questions YOU asked has nothing to do with my ego.

I looked back over the last few posts and just about the only (obviously rhetorical) question I think I vaguely asked you was effectively, "Why would I be caught dead looking for proof of child porn on a website regardless of whether it actually exists there or not?"

If that was the "question" you (as the self-proclaimed expert/defender of said website) became motivated to answer for me you don't have to worry... I'm not all that curious about the details of that particular subject or where I can or can't find it, thanks. Again even having to claim that you're "pretty sure" there's no hint of child porn on your favorite website(s) is not exactly a glowing endorsement for me to want to explore it for myself even if you're right.

Impulse King wrote:

Lurking on /k/ actually DOES give an idea of what government folks think. (/pol/ probably does too, but that's not a board I really go to.)

I specifically doubt the people I work with would ever actually post on the website, but who knows I obviously could be wrong about that. I DO know that some of them might go as far as to be lurking themselves or even posing as people they are not IRL for intelligence purposes. Again as you say that's all your bailiwick, not mine.

Impulse King wrote:

And again, what I'm saying is very narrow and specific to a particular thread which I've posted an archived* link to previously. (To be fair, I've no idea what government security experts may think about archive sites, or if you're allowed to view them.) The "upside" is that I believe I'm right, but want to encourage folks to judge for themselves. Assuming folks are of legal age, I don't see the harm.

Sure there's probably not much harm jumping into specifically focused areas. But again even completely disregarding the question of child porn (which I'll absolutely admit is a very "hot button" conversation-stopping issue as it should be) there is a mountain of other things that even you yourself have admitted is "crappy" about the discourse on 8chan. I deal with enough things that are "crappy" in my life - I don't really need to visit a website that's famous for (and essentially prides itself on) being a virtual warehouse of anonymous crappiness.

Impulse King wrote:

*8chan has a fondness for archive links because they cannot be edited afterwards. They are forever accurate representations of what was said. Unlike wikipedia.

For your sake I wished that my information on this subject -only- came from wikipedia. Again I go back to my drinking sulfuric acid analogy - I simply have been made privy to enough significant info from enough DIFFERENT apolitical sources to know that my somewhat limited time remaining on this planet is probably better spent on other websites.

I'll continue to repeat that YMMV and I wish you the best regardless of where you spend your time online.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Guess that answers that.

As I was alluding to yesterday I'd probably only worry about all this if MWM showed absolutely any motivation/indication to involve themselves with anything remotely resembling "another publisher" or what they were doing with any other third-party websites questionable or otherwise.

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I feel I should clarify

I feel I should clarify something. Lothic I never thought I would convince you personally of any of this. It's more your post just made a great springboard for what I wanted to say. I know from years of watching you on this site how tenacious you can be. I think it's a great quality that will continue to serve you well.

Lothic wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Just because you choose to dabble in the "chans" and I don't doesn't mean I'm some kind of innocent wallflower. I've been to some back-alleys in Singapore that would likely make your head spin. If you're interested you can begin by looking up what Orchard Towers and Geylang are famous for. ;)

Look I get that you think you're "supercool" because you go to several "controversial" websites. I'm even willing to accept that your personal knowledge of those sites is far greater than mine and likely always will be at least as long as I have a security clearance to worry about - you should hear what government security experts have told me about your "happy" little websites. But seriously trying to imply stuff like, "It's not really as bad as EVERYONE says it is" is not the best advertisement for them. Even you would have to admit that.

Like you say to each their own... I just can't really see any "upside" to your particular exercise in Devil's Advocacy in this case. *shrugs*

Hey I never said you were an innocent wallflower. And answering questions YOU asked has nothing to do with my ego.

I looked back over the last few posts and just about the only (obviously rhetorical) question I think I vaguely asked you was effectively, "Why would I be caught dead looking for proof of child porn on a website regardless of whether it actually exists there or not?"

You asked if you touched a nerve. Question mark and all. That gave me the gateway to further expound on the chans by declaring personal experience. You wanted an emotional response, but I gave you a factual one instead. Then you tried to assign emotion to it anyway (supercool) and I refuted it and continued on.

Quote:

If that was the "question" you (as the self-proclaimed expert/defender of said website) became motivated to answer for me you don't have to worry... I'm not all that curious about the details of that particular subject or where I can or can't find it, thanks. Again even having to claim that you're "pretty sure" there's no hint of child porn on your favorite website(s) is not exactly a glowing endorsement for me to want to explore it for myself even if you're right.

Impulse King wrote:

Lurking on /k/ actually DOES give an idea of what government folks think. (/pol/ probably does too, but that's not a board I really go to.)

I specifically doubt the people I work with would ever actually post on the website, but who knows I obviously could be wrong about that. I DO know that some of them might go as far as to be lurking themselves or even posing as people they are not IRL for intelligence purposes. Again as you say that's all your bailiwick, not mine.

Lothic I apologize, but I find that assertion giggleworthy. Let's say we take at face value that the folks you know don't partake of the chans. I can be that generous. Are they the ONLY folks that have EVER done that job? Do you personally know EVERY person on that list? Honestly trying to defend the entirety of military intelligence would be akin to me trying to defend the entirety of 8chan in that it can't be done believably. I'd also like to correct you on a technical point here. As I've explained the vast majority of posting on the chans is done as "anonymous". There's NO need to "pose" there. There's just no sense of persistent identity used to justify that. It's a throwback to a time on the internet before social media. And yeah various folks doing surveillance on these sites is an accepted thing that's widely joked about. Because why not?

Lothic wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

And again, what I'm saying is very narrow and specific to a particular thread which I've posted an archived* link to previously. (To be fair, I've no idea what government security experts may think about archive sites, or if you're allowed to view them.) The "upside" is that I believe I'm right, but want to encourage folks to judge for themselves. Assuming folks are of legal age, I don't see the harm.

Sure there's probably not much harm jumping into specifically focused areas. But again even completely disregarding the question of child porn (which I'll absolutely admit is a very "hot button" conversation-stopping issue as it should be) there is a mountain of other things that even you yourself have admitted is "crappy" about the discourse on 8chan. I deal with enough things that are "crappy" in my life - I don't really need to visit a website that's famous for (and essentially prides itself on) being a virtual warehouse of anonymous crappiness.

Impulse King wrote:

*8chan has a fondness for archive links because they cannot be edited afterwards. They are forever accurate representations of what was said. Unlike wikipedia.

For your sake I wished that my information on this subject -only- came from wikipedia. Again I go back to my drinking sulfuric acid analogy - I simply have been made privy to enough significant info from enough DIFFERENT apolitical sources to know that my somewhat limited time remaining on this planet is probably better spent on other websites.

I'll continue to repeat that YMMV and I wish you the best regardless of where you spend your time online.

Well wikipedia is what you linked to, so it's what I addressed. And hey, I want you to enjoy your time online too. The chans are not for everyone by a long shot. Heck they're not even for most, so that's something we agree on.

Switching here to address the readership in general, as opposed to just Lothic. If folks want to know more about the chans without actually going there, I can share how I discovered them. (Well 4chan anyway. 8chan came later.) I watched a documentary from 2012 called "We are Anonymous" which details the origins and exploits of the hacktivist group Anonymous. As Anonymous had their roots in 4chan's culture, specifically /b/, it is discussed in detail by a variety of folks that participated.

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It only took a few minutes to
Impulse King wrote:

You asked if you touched a nerve. Question mark and all. That gave me the gateway to further expound on the chans by declaring personal experience. You wanted an emotional response, but I gave you a factual one instead. Then you tried to assign emotion to it anyway (supercool) and I refuted it and continued on.

It's clear there's more than a non-emotional response going on here. You wouldn't bother to keep responding to me about this if there wasn't. I'm actually trying my best not to judge you too harshly based on your desire to defend the "chan" sites but frankly you're making that pretty hard. ;)

Impulse King wrote:

Lothic I apologize, but I find that assertion giggleworthy. Let's say we take at face value that the folks you know don't partake of the chans. I can be that generous. Are they the ONLY folks that have EVER done that job? Do you personally know EVERY person on that list? Honestly trying to defend the entirety of military intelligence would be akin to me trying to defend the entirety of 8chan in that it can't be done believably.

Not really getting your muddled point here. Let's just leave it at there are people who don't take the chan sites to be a "giggleworthy" matter.

Impulse King wrote:

I'd also like to correct you on a technical point here. As I've explained the vast majority of posting on the chans is done as "anonymous". There's NO need to "pose" there. There's just no sense of persistent identity used to justify that. It's a throwback to a time on the internet before social media. And yeah various folks doing surveillance on these sites is an accepted thing that's widely joked about. Because why not?

I'm sure you guys joke about lots of things. Ever wonder why anyone would HAVE to surveil sites like these? Think about it.

The rest of my post here is more for the general thread than Impulse King specifically...

For what it's worth It only took a few minutes to stumble over these readily available public 8chan articles:

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/59xk5z/thq-nordic-held-qanda-on-a-website-banned-for-suspected-child-pornography

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/08/8chan-hosted-content-disappears-from-google-searches/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/01/13/this-is-what-happens-when-you-create-an-online-community-without-any-rules/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c7945d2bcda3

With hints of many other similar articles to be found if anyone cares to scratch deeper than the surface layers. While anyone can easily question the validity of the content of any given wikipage you can at least use the current "reference list" of the 8chan wiki page to read dozens of other related articles on the subject and actually judge for yourself.

As the self-proclaimed expert on 8chan I'd invite Impulse King to briefly review the 8chan wiki page and list any glaring inaccuracies he finds there. From all appearances it looks to me like it was written in a fair, unbiased and apolitical manner. Ironically it appears Fredrick Brennan, the creator of 8chan, walked away from his own creation based in part due to "disillusionment with what 8chan had become". That one little nugget of info right there speaks volumes.

It's not even just the question of child porn - if you're a fan of doxxing, swatting and gamergate this is going to be your site as well. The political flamewars that are famously fought in this particular Internet abattoir are pretty much the least of the carnival side-shows to be had on the site. When you set up a "no rules" Libertarian sandbox like this can anyone truly be shocked that this is what you'd get?

Yep... surprisingly enough I really do have better things to waste my time on than anything related to "chan". *shrugs*

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Oh dear, what’s happened...

Oh dear, what’s happened...

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

Oh dear, what’s happened...

That's a good question. For my part I simply have a problem avoiding debating with people who support outlandishly unsupportable positions. Anyone who knows my history on this website would know that by now. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

Oh dear, what’s happened...

That's a good question. For my part I simply have a problem avoiding debating with people who support outlandishly unsupportable positions. Anyone who knows my history on this website would know that by now. ;)

Now see, from my perspective Lothic had the unsupportable position. Which is just to say we disagree on this topic. More often than not I find that I agree with Lothic's position on most topics here.

But as to what happened? Well I can break that down very neatly. Lothic's first statements about 8chan revealed to me that he had no personal experience with the site. Then I got him to admit it. And after that he had to concede every point I had made. Simple steps and nothing complicated from my perspective. (Well aside from the fact that child porn allegations have to be approached indirectly. I suppose that may have been a little fancy.)

Now I said earlier that I had great respect for Lothic, and I still do. Part of that respect was a desire to engage him in a debate as he has shown some decent talent. Sadly this topic wasn't a fair contest as he was handicapped by his security clearance. This resulted in my having a decided advantage that I didn't actually want. Well maybe next time it will be more of the skill based contest of the kind we both can find enjoyable.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

Oh dear, what’s happened...

That's a good question. For my part I simply have a problem avoiding debating with people who support outlandishly unsupportable positions. Anyone who knows my history on this website would know that by now. ;)

Now see, from my perspective Lothic had the unsupportable position. Which is just to say we disagree on this topic. More often than not I find that I agree with Lothic's position on most topics here.

But as to what happened? Well I can break that down very neatly. Lothic's first statements about 8chan revealed to me that he had no personal experience with the site. Then I got him to admit it. And after that he had to concede every point I had made. Simple steps and nothing complicated from my perspective. (Well aside from the fact that child porn allegations have to be approached indirectly. I suppose that may have been a little fancy.)

Now I said earlier that I had great respect for Lothic, and I still do. Part of that respect was a desire to engage him in a debate as he has shown some decent talent. Sadly this topic wasn't a fair contest as he was handicapped by his security clearance. This resulted in my having a decided advantage that I didn't actually want. Well maybe next time it will be more of the skill based contest of the kind we both can find enjoyable.

If you'd like me to continue to admit I've never been to a website that is continuously (and might I add accurately) accused of various things like supporting (or at the very least fostering a friendly space for) child porn, doxxing, gamergate, etc. for years then I'll sing my ignorance of that any and every day of the week. And don't think my security clearance is the only thing that keeps me away from such things... like I said even I have a few standards (moral? ethical? who knows?) that I cling to from time to time.

Sadly all that I've seen that was "broken down very neatly" here is that you seem to enjoy defending things that are effectively indefensible by any cultural and/or social standard. And here I thought I was the patron saint of Lost Causes on this forum. At least your capacity for self-delusion and apologetics seems to be quite strong at any rate.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

Oh dear, what’s happened...

That's a good question. For my part I simply have a problem avoiding debating with people who support outlandishly unsupportable positions. Anyone who knows my history on this website would know that by now. ;)

Now see, from my perspective Lothic had the unsupportable position. Which is just to say we disagree on this topic. More often than not I find that I agree with Lothic's position on most topics here.

But as to what happened? Well I can break that down very neatly. Lothic's first statements about 8chan revealed to me that he had no personal experience with the site. Then I got him to admit it. And after that he had to concede every point I had made. Simple steps and nothing complicated from my perspective. (Well aside from the fact that child porn allegations have to be approached indirectly. I suppose that may have been a little fancy.)

Now I said earlier that I had great respect for Lothic, and I still do. Part of that respect was a desire to engage him in a debate as he has shown some decent talent. Sadly this topic wasn't a fair contest as he was handicapped by his security clearance. This resulted in my having a decided advantage that I didn't actually want. Well maybe next time it will be more of the skill based contest of the kind we both can find enjoyable.

If you'd like me to continue to admit I've never been to a website that is continuously (and might I add accurately) accused of various things like supporting (or at the very least fostering a friendly space for) child porn, doxxing, gamergate, etc. for years then I'll sing my ignorance of that any and every day of the week. And don't think my security clearance is the only thing that keeps me away from such things... like I said even I have a few standards (moral? ethical? who knows) that I cling to from time to time.

Sadly all that I've seen that was "broken that down very neatly" is that you seem to enjoy defending things that are effectively indefensible by any standard. And here I thought I was the patron saint of Lost Causes on this forum.

No worries. I've made every point I wanted to make here and that's where I stop. Be well.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

No worries. I've made every point I wanted to make here and that's where I stop. Be well.

Uh yeah sure... once you've realized you stepped into a field full of unavoidable landmines is where you choose to stop. Nice. ;)

I must admit this was actually interesting all things considered. Again I thought I was an expert in choosing the dumbest things to Devil's Advocate for. If you'd like to come away from this claiming you "beat me" in some way I'll gladly endorse your bold choice here. I doubt many people would freely admit they even visit the chan sites much less defend them.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Missing Worlds Media, Inc. is looking for a publisher? That's news to me. Where is that rumor coming from? I found this misinformation on the TVTropes site this week as well (I think we are planning on correcting that). We ARE a publisher last I knew and not just a development company. The change to "professional" will simply mean we can pay our people as regular staff and they won't have to rely on other organizations to support themselves and can work full time on our projects.

Somehow went the whole thread without realizing MWM is dev and publisher :p

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Missing Worlds Media, Inc. is looking for a publisher? That's news to me. Where is that rumor coming from? I found this misinformation on the TVTropes site this week as well (I think we are planning on correcting that). We ARE a publisher last I knew and not just a development company. The change to "professional" will simply mean we can pay our people as regular staff and they won't have to rely on other organizations to support themselves and can work full time on our projects.

Somehow went the whole thread without realizing MWM is dev and publisher :p

Yeah I never quite understood the whole argument of this thread for MWM needing to find a "third-party publisher" to begin with. Wasn't MWM always trying to BE their own publisher?

Maybe the working theory was that if MWM got "scooped up" by a big name AAA company then their money/promotion problems might be mitigated. While that might help MWM's short term development issues it would also set them up with a "corporate master" that they would have to answer to. And as those who played CoH knows the whole NCsoft - Paragon Studios relationship didn't end up too well for us.

Now instead of MWM getting involved with another publisher they could instead enlist the aid of some kind of PR firm/service that might help them directly promote and/or advertise the game. That kind of thing might have some legitimate value in this situation.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Missing Worlds Media, Inc. is looking for a publisher? That's news to me. Where is that rumor coming from? I found this misinformation on the TVTropes site this week as well (I think we are planning on correcting that). We ARE a publisher last I knew and not just a development company. The change to "professional" will simply mean we can pay our people as regular staff and they won't have to rely on other organizations to support themselves and can work full time on our projects.

Somehow went the whole thread without realizing MWM is dev and publisher :p

I remember them saying they’ll seek a publisher once the game is completed, for distribution purposes. I’ll find it later.

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:
desviper wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Missing Worlds Media, Inc. is looking for a publisher? That's news to me. Where is that rumor coming from? I found this misinformation on the TVTropes site this week as well (I think we are planning on correcting that). We ARE a publisher last I knew and not just a development company. The change to "professional" will simply mean we can pay our people as regular staff and they won't have to rely on other organizations to support themselves and can work full time on our projects.

Somehow went the whole thread without realizing MWM is dev and publisher :p

I remember them saying they’ll seek a publisher once the game is completed, for distribution purposes. I’ll find it later.

I'd be interested in that myself. TBH with Epic coming up with their new distribution platform we have looked into that with some seriousness but it didn't seem to fit our needs (yet) and we aren't doing Steam (yet). I'm one of the people behind our product packaging and distribution. Literally one of our first bits of software (never released) was a launcher/installer program written by yours truly. The others were tools for map generation (also written by me). When we release to the public you will be using a piece of software (likely written by me) to install, update, and repair. It most likely allow you to to install other software products as they become available. AFAIK the internet is all the publisher we need. If we decided to do retail distribution another publisher might be considered but only if the volume needs it. It is possible we might be contacted by another publisher for other projects - that's common in the software industry - and we might consider such a partnership, but that's as far as that goes.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

AFAIK the internet is all the publisher we need. If we decided to do retail distribution another publisher might be considered but only if the volume needs it.

I tend to think this is the important bit of it right here. Things have changed and while I'd at least want MWM to "consider" all the retail options I think the days of NEEDING a dedicated publisher to put cardboard boxes in brick-n-mortar stores is long behind us. There are no more retail Blockbuster stores for a reason and I honestly believe even console-dedicated game stores are not going to be around forever.

While I believe MWM might ultimately benefit from some kind of professional PR/advertisement assistance to help "promote" your game/brand I really don't think you need to reflexively jump into any publisher entanglements "just because". Remember you pretty much still need a game to sell -before- you worry too much about how you're going to sell it.

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PR and advertising has

PR and advertising has definitely been a sore spot for MWM.

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We have new PR people now.

We have new PR people now. They are just taking the time needed to get familiar with what we have. We have nothing to advertise yet. :p

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I've thought we might

I've thought we might consider one of those cards Steam and the rest sells at retails stores with a dollar amount already loaded on it or similar. Maybe custom thumb drives with the installer. Right now some PCs no longer even come with even a bay for a CD/DVD drive!

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

We have new PR people now. They are just taking the time needed to get familiar with what we have. We have nothing to advertise yet. :p

News of new PR people is good to hear - hope it works out.

Now you just have to solve the "nothing to advertise yet" part. ;)

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I've thought we might consider one of those cards Steam and the rest sells at retails stores with a dollar amount already loaded on it or similar. Maybe custom thumb drives with the installer.

Interesting ideas and likely cheaper than putting boxes on shelves.

Funny story: Last year I decided to buy Fallout 76 for the PC and I'm silly enough that I wanted a "physical copy" of it so I bought what I assumed was going to be a DVD version of the game. Turns out I got a box (a typical DVD-style jewel case) but instead of a physical DVD all I got was a circular paper insert with an install code printed on it. Apparently the days of having "physical game media" for PCs is dead already.

avelworldcreator wrote:

Right now some PCs no longer even come with even a bay for a CD/DVD drive!

It is in fact getting hard to find options for the traditional 5.25" style CD/DVD/BD type drives. Case in point I was recently thinking of buying a new custom built desktop machine and was looking at some of the websites that specialize in that sort of thing. These sites are now only offering 1 or 2 options for optical drives (when they used to have many) and in some cases they are charging a ridiculous premium for them ($100+) likely because they are becoming a rarity of quickly-approaching bygone era.

It took long enough for 3.5" floppy disks to die but they finally did. I suppose the 5.25" optical disk is next on the chopping block.

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The original floppy disks

The original floppy disks were 8" (I've used them).
The 5 1/2" were literally based on a cocktail napkin (one was taken from a bar and measured).
The 3 1/4" were based on the size of a man's shirt pocket (the same parties were involved in the napkin case. The shirtpocket version was inspired by Star Trek)
The main manufacturer of Blue Ray drives has cancelled production just a few days ago.

Are you looking for a custom system?

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I think part of the confusion

I think part of the confusion about needing a publisher goes way back to the beginning of this project.
There was discussions of looking for one but nothing concrete was ever stated, just that thet were looking at possibilities. Never once did they say they wanted one, just that they were looking at possibilities.

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For the long term there's

For the long term there's always the option for tie-in projects. As a quick example, something like Hearthstone: a CCG based on the game but that doesn't require the game to play.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

The main manufacturer of Blue Ray drives has cancelled production just a few days ago.

That's disappointing.
One of my hobbies is editing family videos and burning them to DVD. Practically the only thing I do with my computer's optical drive anymore.

I guess someone might keep making them, for a while yet, but they'll eventually get super expensive as they become increasingly rare.

That already happened to me once. I used to use LIghtscribe media because it looked better than a peel-and-stick label (or a Sharpie!).
The last LIghtscribe capable drive I bought cost $25. When I built my last computer, that drive wasn't compatible with the SATA ports on my motherboard and a SATA Lightscribe drive cost over $100. Turned out to be cheaper to invest in a new inkjet printer capable of printing directly on printable discs. Happily, the results were far superior to the Lightscribed discs.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

The original floppy disks were 8" (I've used them).
The 5 1/2" were literally based on a cocktail napkin (one was taken from a bar and measured).
The 3 1/4" were based on the size of a man's shirt pocket (the same parties were involved in the napkin case. The shirtpocket version was inspired by Star Trek)

Not sure what sparked the history lesson but for what it's worth I still have my own 8" floppy disks. Yes, I'm that old. Obviously I haven't spun them up in decades but they are still fun to show the occasional Millennial who doesn't know what life was like before wi-fi. ;)

avelworldcreator wrote:

The main manufacturer of Blue Ray drives has cancelled production just a few days ago.

This is actual news to me but it's not surprising.

avelworldcreator wrote:

Are you looking for a custom system?

Not really seriously "looking" but I occasionally pretend I am just to see what the current state of things are.

Over the years I've built like 7 or 8 PCs from ground up but in the last 10 years or so I've gotten lazy enough to buy custom rigs. The funny thing about it now-a-days is that everyone seems obsessed with putting LED lights on everything: cases, fans, RAM, internal wires, etc. It's hard to find a "plain" system that doesn't look like a Xmas tree any more. ;)

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Riptide wrote:
Riptide wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

The main manufacturer of Blue Ray drives has cancelled production just a few days ago.

That's disappointing.
One of my hobbies is editing family videos and burning them to DVD. Practically the only thing I do with my computer's optical drive anymore.

I guess someone might keep making them, for a while yet, but they'll eventually get super expensive as they become increasingly rare.

Yeah I wouldn't assume those drives are going to become instantly unavailable but probably over the course of the next few years they will become more rare/expensive until people finally overwhelmingly let them go.

Remember everyone assumed the 3.5" floppy disk was going to be "instantly gone" in the early 90s but in reality they hung on for another 10-15 years before they were seriously considered deceased.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I'd be interested in that myself. TBH with Epic coming up with their new distribution platform we have looked into that with some seriousness but it didn't seem to fit our needs (yet) and we aren't doing Steam (yet). I'm one of the people behind our product packaging and distribution. Literally one of our first bits of software (never released) was a launcher/installer program written by yours truly. The others were tools for map generation (also written by me). When we release to the public you will be using a piece of software (likely written by me) to install, update, and repair. It most likely allow you to to install other software products as they become available. AFAIK the internet is all the publisher we need. If we decided to do retail distribution another publisher might be considered but only if the volume needs it. It is possible we might be contacted by another publisher for other projects - that's common in the software industry - and we might consider such a partnership, but that's as far as that goes.

I remember in the discord Epic Store having some good deal for Unreal users

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

We have new PR people now. They are just taking the time needed to get familiar with what we have. We have nothing to advertise yet. :p

'Sell the sizzle, not the steak'. Even if that means someone has to sit on the grill while the rest of the team hatchet heifers.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I've thought we might consider one of those cards Steam and the rest sells at retails stores with a dollar amount already loaded on it or similar. Maybe custom thumb drives with the installer. Right now some PCs no longer even come with even a bay for a CD/DVD drive!

Speaking from the retailer point of view, I LOVE those cards! (In fact at one point I suggested them for CoH. No idea if I was the only one to do that or not, but they used the company I recommended.) With the rise of self check outs, I would recommend a blurb saying "For best results, purchase at a manned register." or something to that effect. (Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Keep the customers happy.) Not saying the thumb drives are bad, but for Walmart, the cards are the way to go. Retailers can't lose money on them, so it's a much easier sell.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Funny story: Last year I decided to buy Fallout 76 for the PC and I'm silly enough that I wanted a "physical copy" of it so I bought what I assumed was going to be a DVD version of the game. Turns out I got a box (a typical DVD-style jewel case) but instead of a physical DVD all I got was a circular paper insert with an install code printed on it. Apparently the days of having "physical game media" for PCs is dead already.

I recently bought Anthem for my Xbox. (It’s pretty fun.) I could buy it digital or a physical copy from Amazon. They were the same price but the physical copy came with a $10 Amazon credit so I went for that.

I installed it on my console’s HDD from the disk and now I don’t ever need it again. There was no advantage in getting a physical disk other than the financial perk. I’m honestly not sure why they even bother putting it on a disk. (I still had to download an update from the server bigger than what was on the disk.)

Most movies on DVD we buy come with a digital download code, we sometimes never take the disk out of the box.

I expect mentions of physical media of any kind will be reserved for jokes about obsolescence within the next 10 years.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Not sure what sparked the history lesson but for what it's worth I still have my own 8" floppy disks. Yes, I'm that old. Obviously I haven't spun them up in decades but they are still fun to show the occasional Millennial who doesn't know what life was like before wi-fi. ;)

Seemed relevant ... {whistles not so innocently} ...


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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Funny story: Last year I decided to buy Fallout 76 for the PC and I'm silly enough that I wanted a "physical copy" of it so I bought what I assumed was going to be a DVD version of the game. Turns out I got a box (a typical DVD-style jewel case) but instead of a physical DVD all I got was a circular paper insert with an install code printed on it. Apparently the days of having "physical game media" for PCs is dead already.

I recently bought Anthem for my Xbox. (It’s pretty fun.) I could buy it digital or a physical copy from Amazon. They were the same price but the physical copy came with a $10 Amazon credit so I went for that.

I installed it on my console’s HDD from the disk and now I don’t ever need it again. There was no advantage in getting a physical disk other than the financial perk. I’m honestly not sure why they even bother putting it on a disk. (I still had to download an update from the server bigger than what was on the disk.)

Most movies on DVD we buy come with a digital download code, we sometimes never take the disk out of the box.

I expect mentions of physical media of any kind will be reserved for jokes about obsolescence within the next 10 years.

There was definitely a time period when having "physical install disk(s)" was an advantage. Even when games were first becoming "downloadable" over the Internet there were times when being able to do fresh local re-installs without having to deal with slow download speeds was nice.

But honestly I think we've being living in the "post PC media" era for at least 10+ years now. I think I've mostly opted to get a physical copy of a game for the last say 5+ years just because it was an "old habit" more than anything else. Like you say I've rarely needed such disks now more than once and games usually update themselves (via Internet) past the version burned on the install disks as soon as the game is initially installed.

Clearly media for consoles will still remain for a while. Interestingly enough I think the concept of "movies on DVDs" will last a while longer because even though most people stream in the US there are other countries (like I've seen in Japan) where big stores full of DVD/BD titles (and even music on CDs) still exist. But again like you say there will come a time in the not-too-distant future where EVERYTHING will be Internet based for better or worse.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Not sure what sparked the history lesson but for what it's worth I still have my own 8" floppy disks. Yes, I'm that old. Obviously I haven't spun them up in decades but they are still fun to show the occasional Millennial who doesn't know what life was like before wi-fi. ;)

Seemed relevant ... {whistles not so innocently} ...

Yep I've seen several those... Good stuff. :)

There's one of the late night TV shows (forget which) that did a "fake game show" bit where they had like this 15 year old millennial and like a 90 year old grandmother and they were asking each of them trivia about the -other- person's generation and it was a riot. They'd ask the kid about old Hollywood movies or 60s era TV shows and they'd ask the grandmother about social media or current music stars. The crowd would be trying to scream the answers to them and they still mostly couldn't get the answers right. The funniest part was that you'd see one of them get asked a question and you knew the other one knew the answer and just wanted to blurt it out. ;)

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Heh, I am often like that

Heh, I am often like that with Real trivia shows. Or, I won a bonus at work for seeing one of our articles (real paper newspaper) with a photo that was captioned 1974, but I Lived through that period and the photo was all wrong. The clothes, the Hair! all wrong. So I pointed it out and the correct caption was 1947. I was glad to catch that before it went to press.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Atama wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Funny story: Last year I decided to buy Fallout 76 for the PC and I'm silly enough that I wanted a "physical copy" of it so I bought what I assumed was going to be a DVD version of the game. Turns out I got a box (a typical DVD-style jewel case) but instead of a physical DVD all I got was a circular paper insert with an install code printed on it. Apparently the days of having "physical game media" for PCs is dead already.

I recently bought Anthem for my Xbox. (It’s pretty fun.) I could buy it digital or a physical copy from Amazon. They were the same price but the physical copy came with a $10 Amazon credit so I went for that.

I installed it on my console’s HDD from the disk and now I don’t ever need it again. There was no advantage in getting a physical disk other than the financial perk. I’m honestly not sure why they even bother putting it on a disk. (I still had to download an update from the server bigger than what was on the disk.)

Most movies on DVD we buy come with a digital download code, we sometimes never take the disk out of the box.

I expect mentions of physical media of any kind will be reserved for jokes about obsolescence within the next 10 years.

There was definitely a time period when having "physical install disk(s)" was an advantage. Even when games were first becoming "downloadable" over the Internet there were times when being able to do fresh local re-installs without having to deal with slow download speeds was nice.

But honestly I think we've being living in the "post PC media" era for at least 10+ years now. I think I've mostly opted to get a physical copy of a game for the last say 5+ years just because it was an "old habit" more than anything else. Like you say I've rarely needed such disks now more than once and games usually update themselves (via Internet) past the version burned on the install disks as soon as the game is initially installed.

Clearly media for consoles will still remain for a while. Interestingly enough I think the concept of "movies on DVDs" will last a while longer because even though most people stream in the US there are other countries (like I've seen in Japan) where big stores full of DVD/BD titles (and even music on CDs) still exist. But again like you say there will come a time in the not-too-distant future where EVERYTHING will be Internet based for better or worse.

I don't know. There's plenty of us out there that prefer to actually OWN what we buy and streaming it doesn't feel like owning.

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Nobody said anything about

Nobody said anything about streaming something. That’s like saying the only alternative to buying a DVD is going to a movie theater. That’s just silly.

When I buy a digital copy of a game I own it. I *physically* own it. It exists on my hard drive. It’s as permanent and tangible there as it is on a DVD. The only difference is whether it’s on something metal or something plastic.

Actually, my digital copy is better than a game on a plastic disc. If something happened to that DVD, it’s gone forever. If something happened to my hard drive I just download it again because it’s registered to my account. So I actually have a stronger claim to ownership if I buy digital.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But again like you say there will come a time in the not-too-distant future where EVERYTHING will be Internet based for better or worse.

I don't know. There's plenty of us out there that prefer to actually OWN what we buy and streaming it doesn't feel like owning.

You did notice the part where I said "for better or worse" right? It's up to you to judge what you think might be the "downside" to not locally owning any of your own data. ;)

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

Nobody said anything about streaming something. That’s like saying the only alternative to buying a DVD is going to a movie theater. That’s just silly.

When I buy a digital copy of a game I own it. I *physically* own it. It exists on my hard drive. It’s as permanent and tangible there as it is on a DVD. The only difference is whether it’s on something metal or something plastic.

Actually, my digital copy is better than a game on a plastic disc. If something happened to that DVD, it’s gone forever. If something happened to my hard drive I just download it again because it’s registered to my account. So I actually have a stronger claim to ownership if I buy digital.

I get your point about "owning" digital copies of games or movies and can accept what you're saying about those specific things.

But I think the tangent Brand X might have been talking about are things like Netflix (and other services like it). Sure services like Netflix are super convenient and allow you to see all sorts of cool things. But at the end of the day you don't really get to OWN anything Netflix provides.

Instead of maintaining your own library of titles you are choosing to PAY someone else to provide/maintain your data so fundamentally you are at the mercy of whatever Netflix chooses to do with that data. Also you get to live with whatever restrictions Netflix deems fit to impose on you so for instance let's say there some weird/obscure title you love but Netflix chooses not to provide it. If you're 100% dependent on streaming for content then you might be SoL for that weird title.

Yes the Internet is wonderful and being able to have things like Netflix is equally wonderful. You just have to remain mindful that for all the benefits you get from these things you are also accepting that you are in fact trading much of your own control and independence over your own data to gain those benefits.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I mean you don't really own

I mean you don't really own much of anything as far as software goes. Either way you're licensing it.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I mean you don't really own much of anything as far as software goes. Either way you're licensing it.

Software? Sure. Video and audio (i.e. movies, TV, music) is another story.

At least back in the day when you bought a DVD box set or a music CD you pretty much "owned" it in every way it really mattered. Now with all the combined iTunes and Netflix type services many people don't really "own" anything anymore, again for better or worse as you choose to see that.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:

I mean you don't really own much of anything as far as software goes. Either way you're licensing it.

Software? Sure. Video and audio (i.e. movies, TV, music) is another story.

At least back in the day when you bought a DVD box set or a music CD you pretty much "owned" it in every way it really mattered. Now with all the combined iTunes and Netflix type services many people don't really "own" anything anymore, again for better or worse as you choose to see that.

Accurate, which is why i said "software" and made no mention of movies or music....

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I've thought we might consider one of those cards Steam and the rest sells at retails stores with a dollar amount already loaded on it or similar. Maybe custom thumb drives with the installer. Right now some PCs no longer even come with even a bay for a CD/DVD drive!

Speaking from the retailer point of view, I LOVE those cards! (In fact at one point I suggested them for CoH. No idea if I was the only one to do that or not, but they used the company I recommended.) With the rise of self check outs, I would recommend a blurb saying "For best results, purchase at a manned register." or something to that effect. (Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Keep the customers happy.) Not saying the thumb drives are bad, but for Walmart, the cards are the way to go. Retailers can't lose money on them, so it's a much easier sell.

Which company did you recommend? Are they still around?

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You can thank IBM (in the

You can thank IBM (in the early days) for the "licensing" model of software. They typically leased equipment and software was just part of the equimpment lease.I disagree with that licensing model entirely.

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Same is true of smart phones.

Same is true of smart phones. When you purchase the phone, all the pre loaded software is not yours per say, it is available for your use, but that's it.
The software can easily disappear with an OS update if the phone manufacturer has changed IT'S licensing agreements.
And also, if they don't like a certain software package, they can make changes to the OS which would block certain programs from ever working on the phone.

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That's why "jailbreaking"

That's why "jailbreaking" phones is often necessary (and fortunately legal).

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I've thought we might consider one of those cards Steam and the rest sells at retails stores with a dollar amount already loaded on it or similar. Maybe custom thumb drives with the installer. Right now some PCs no longer even come with even a bay for a CD/DVD drive!

Speaking from the retailer point of view, I LOVE those cards! (In fact at one point I suggested them for CoH. No idea if I was the only one to do that or not, but they used the company I recommended.) With the rise of self check outs, I would recommend a blurb saying "For best results, purchase at a manned register." or something to that effect. (Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Keep the customers happy.) Not saying the thumb drives are bad, but for Walmart, the cards are the way to go. Retailers can't lose money on them, so it's a much easier sell.

Which company did you recommend? Are they still around?

Afraid I don't recall, but I will take the same steps I did last time and get back to you tomorrow after work. (Unless I find/ invent a reason to go to the nearest one tonight. Which for CoT seems likely.)

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I've thought we might consider one of those cards Steam and the rest sells at retails stores with a dollar amount already loaded on it or similar. Maybe custom thumb drives with the installer. Right now some PCs no longer even come with even a bay for a CD/DVD drive!

Speaking from the retailer point of view, I LOVE those cards! (In fact at one point I suggested them for CoH. No idea if I was the only one to do that or not, but they used the company I recommended.) With the rise of self check outs, I would recommend a blurb saying "For best results, purchase at a manned register." or something to that effect. (Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Keep the customers happy.) Not saying the thumb drives are bad, but for Walmart, the cards are the way to go. Retailers can't lose money on them, so it's a much easier sell.

Which company did you recommend? Are they still around?

Afraid I don't recall, but I will take the same steps I did last time and get back to you tomorrow after work. (Unless I find/ invent a reason to go to the nearest one tonight. Which for CoT seems likely.)

We needed milk. Company used was fastcard.

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The company is now InCard,

The company is now InCard, but I've passed your information on. Not sure if it is a justifiable marketing/sales expense yet, but I think it's worth looking into. Thanks for the help.

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When they become a

When they become a professional studio, my chances of (volunteering)working for them as a graphic designer will shrink even more lol

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Not necessarily. You should

Not necessarily. You should see Warcabbit's design sketches!

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

You can thank IBM (in the early days) for the "licensing" model of software. They typically leased equipment and software was just part of the equimpment lease.I disagree with that licensing model entirely.

The model for intellectual property has always been there, it was just unenforceable. It's a solid truism of the IP world that your IP rights are only ever as strong as your ability to enforce them, which is why the publishing world never attempted a class action suit against second hand book shops. In theory they were well within their rights to do so. Read the copyright blurb on any book you own, your rights aren't transferable.

This is why the rise of Kindle and Steam is a publisher's dream come true, they can finally enforce no transfers.

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