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VR support

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Ephrem
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VR support

Will this game have virtual reality support?

Nadira
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Unreal 4 supports the Occulus

Unreal 4 supports the Occulus Rift and should automatically switch to it if the hardware is detected and the necessary addin is supplied with the game.

It will be a relatively small effort to support it, though the developers may opt not to if they deem the inability to switch from first to third person point of view detrimental to the game experience.

Gangrel
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Nadira wrote:
Nadira wrote:

Unreal 4 supports the Occulus Rift and should automatically switch to it if the hardware is detected and the necessary addin is supplied with the game.
It will be a relatively small effort to support it, though the developers may opt not to if they deem the inability to switch from first to third person point of view detrimental to the game experience.

There is "supporting" it and then there is *supporting it*. In theory practically any style of game can be "rift" compatible. However, not every style of game *works* as such.

Elite Dangerous works with the rift, because you are actually sat down in the ship chair, so when you look down and see yourself sitting, it really does feel a lot more real to you.

However, if you are standing up when you do this, it breaks the immersion a little bit.

Side note: there is also the problem with how the interface maps out. In Elite Dangerous, the default UI colour doesn't work as well as it should. This is a problem with the display that is used in the Rift DK2. There is also the "screen door" effect, where you can easily see the pixels.

Also, because you cannot see your keyboard or mouse whilst using the Oculus, the UI and game would have to be *well* designed to work with a controller... and there is some opposition amongst the player base for "controller orientated gameplay".

However, saying all of that, if anything else, there are already applications out which allow you to use the Rift as a "standard" output display, although you do then lose the main reason for using a rift with the game.

Source: I have a DK2, and use it with Elite Dangerous on a regular basis. Brilliant for that game, not so hot for games that are not designed properly to use it (or keyboard/mouse intensive tasks)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Redlynne
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Being able to use a keyboard

Being able to use a keyboard without looking at the keyboard mandates that either the hands never move out of position (ie. typewriter performance) or that the fingers be able to "orient" easily and reliably onto the keys through a combination of muscle memory/spatial memory and/or tactile identification response. The latter can be achieved on a lot of keyboard designs so long as the index fingers of both hands rest "naturally" on the F and J keys most of the time (which is typically true for correct typewriter positioning of the hand posture. That's because the F and J keys (nowadays) often feature small raised bumps on them at the bottom of the key, which are easy to "feel" and discern by touch alone without the necessity of visual sight.

Consequently, the keybind set needed for to enable/enhance control verification involves keeping the index fingers on the F and J keys as much as possible so as to maintain that necessary location feedback signal to the touch. I personally have found that doing this is ... incompatible ... with a WASD control setup. Why? Because keeping an index finger on the F key with my left hand would mean that my ring and pinky fingers are doing almost all of the work of manipulating the WASD keys, which is not a design compatible with easy key command authority, since it means using the ring finger on W and S for forwards and backwards movement (the most common motion commands). Instead, I "invert" that control setup and shift things over 1 key to the right, resulting in a WERD setup, that allows me to use my middle finger on the E and D keys for forwards and backwards movement. Due to the shape of my hands and their natural inclination to rest on the keyboard, this results in my ring through index fingers "naturally" resting on the WEF keys almost full time, which puts the ` through 6 and F1 through F5 keys within reasonably easy reach via muscle memory, enhancing the number of keys I can reach easily without looking at the keyboard to confirm I'm pressing the correct keys.

It takes a little while to "retrain" for this setup, since it's non-standard (I have no idea why anyone uses WASD, myself, aside from "legacy" reasons), but I have found that it significantly enhances the ability to use the keyboard and sustain the orientation of the hand(s) with the keyboard, sight unseen.


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Gangrel
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I personally use the WASD

I personally use the WASD setup because it lets me hit the shift key easier. This is due to how my little finger is, and an odd quirk of it. Most other people that I know can easily rest their hands one set of characters to the right (properly on the home keys) and still hit the shift key.

So in this case I *know* I am the exception.

Whilst I was resting last night, I then came and realised one thing: when I play Elite dangerous, in practically *all* of the situations, I am limited in terms of what I can use to navigate. The only screens that I can use a mouse on, all bar one of them are also easily navigated with the UI navigation keys (Basically UI UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT). Throw me into the main galaxy map screen, and that is mouse/game controller setup.

The Galaxy map though is ideal for mouse movement and tracking. Now comes an interesting problem, and that is because each eye shows something *slightly* different to the other it means that the mouse might not actually directly match up with what one eye see's. It is slightly off. So I can often see myself click something that is not actually where I thought it was.

It is the 2d interface in a 3d world. Did you mean to click the item that you just missed or were you actually intending to click the star that was next to the item?

So there is that problem. And this is one problem that you cannot resolve without really have a RIFT or 3 available to test on.

For all the praise that Elite gets for its Rift support, the galaxy map is one area that it *seriously* falls down though.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Lothic
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I'm not strictly "anti Oculus

I'm not strictly "anti Oculus Rift" or anti any other kind of hardware that might make playing this game more interesting.

But the standard response I have for something like this is that if providing "proper hardware support" for the Oculus Rift would take any significant amount of extra Dev effort then I would suggest putting it off until the basic game has launched. Let the Devs focus on getting the "spiritual successor" of CoH up and running first (which is going to be hard enough) before we start to worry about supporting special hardware that arguably only a minority of players would ever use while playing CoT.

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Gangrel
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm not strictly "anti Oculus Rift" or anti any other kind of hardware that might make playing this game more interesting.
But the standard response I have for something like this is that if providing "proper hardware support" for the Oculus Rift would take any significant amount of extra Dev effort then I would suggest putting it off until the basic game has launched. Let the Devs focus on getting the "spiritual successor" of CoH up and running first (which is going to be hard enough) before we start to worry about supporting special hardware that arguably only a minority of players would ever use while playing CoT.

That is my stance about it as well. I am fine if you plan for it from the outset, or at least early enough at the start to get it working and integrated like Frontier did for Elite Dangerous; it also made a *lot* of sense there as well. They also didn't just do Rift Support though, they also have head tracking support (TrackIR and various other implementations), and even the homebrew of EDTracker hardware.

Then there is the design *around* and *with* the SDK as well. You have to do things in a certain way so that they display properly, because remember that each eye receives a *slightly* different image (to provide depth perception)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Ephrem
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As Nadira has mentioned, UE4

As Nadira has mentioned, UE4 has already done most of the work for enabling Oculus Rift. Some optimization would probably need to be done to the game to ensure consistent 90 fps on the recommended hardware.
Many Oculus Rift games have already shown that it is not really necessary that the experience be first person. Although it would be really cool to experience flying in first person view.
Here is a link to the best practice guide if anyone is interested. http://static.oculus.com/sdk-downloads/documents/Oculus_Best_Practices_Guide.pdf

Lothic
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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

As Nadira has mentioned, UE4 has already done most of the work for enabling Oculus Rift. Some optimization would probably need to be done to the game to ensure consistent 90 fps on the recommended hardware.

I understand that UE4 might actually make supporting things like Oculus Rift relatively easy in a game like CoT.

But I'm still holding to the position that if making sure it would work seamlessly in CoT (like your point about optimizing for a consistent 90+ fps output) would take anything more than like 5 or 10 hours of serious engineering effort that it still should be put off until after launch. Priorities must be maintained and Oculus Rift support is simply not an absolute "must have for launch" feature no matter how cool it might be.

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Ephrem
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If VR becomes as prevalent

If VR becomes as prevalent over the next few years as many think, this game could really make its mark by being one of the first MMOs on the scene. This would be very good for subscriptions.

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Sword Art Online Titan City

Sword Art Online Titan City Online.


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As much as I love the idea of

As much as I love the idea of the oculus I think much of its appeal would be lost in a game that is designed around 3rd person views. For the oculus support, the game would probably need to have been designed from the start with it in mind....look at some of the GTA Oculus videos on youtube and see how fun it is while doing oddball stuff but how absolutely horrible it is for the actual gameplay.

That being said....I would love it if after launch the devs put in some oculus in mind designs (that of course don't require the oculus), something like a racetrack for travel powers or maybe a haunted house on Halloween, as the oculus lends itself perfectly to race/FPS and horror games.

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Also worth noting are the

Also worth noting are the tech requirements to run Oculus.
http://techreport.com/news/28280/youll-need-a-powerful-gpu-to-drive-the-oculus-rift

That is not an insignificant hurdle. Right now Oculus is a small niche product that I cannot see using dev time for before launch.

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Facebook/Oculus have started

Facebook/Oculus have started funding several games that support the product. Perhaps it might be a way to get more funding for the game.

I don't really think that VR will be a niche product. There is too much momentum behind it. I would really hate to see this game miss the boat.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

Also worth noting are the tech requirements to run Oculus.http://techreport.com/news/28280/youll-need-a-powerful-gpu-to-drive-the-...
That is not an insignificant hurdle. Right now Oculus is a small niche product that I cannot see using dev time for before launch.

Yep. Wait 6-7 more years for it to get much more affordable to manufacture, Dev tools to be streamlined, and so on.
Who knows, maybe some new innovation in technology will come about in the meantime, either to replace or make Oculus VR better. I say, keep an eye on things related to it, but hold off till it seems right.

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6 or 7 years? You really

6 or 7 years? You really think its going to take that long? I mean we already have this...

https://theeyetribe.com/

and

https://www.leapmotion.com/

Along with multiple companies making a VR headset (including the big boys Sony and Valve).

But I do agree that its probably to early right now to focus on VR for this game.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

6 or 7 years? You really think its going to take that long? I mean we already have this...
https://theeyetribe.com/
and
https://www.leapmotion.com/
Along with multiple companies making a VR headset (including the big boys Sony and Valve).
But I do agree that its probably to early right now to focus on VR for this game.

SteamOS, i think, should be more in demand, and that wont overtake XBox One, maybe PS4 (probably might come close, but wont beat it) and thats 5+ years. So, 1st Desktops (PC/MAC mostly) will start using Oculus and that might take 4 to 5 years... then consoles might see this trend change as more and more 3D landscapes take VR to N'th level, and that's in the 6 or 7 years.

Of course, thats an optimistic prediction. :)

All i really want is for Samsung to turn my phone into a Portable console (nVidia Shield type of tech) that wirelessly uses most TV's to display the game, while I use my Phone as a Wii reMote. Or touch screen as a gamepad. Volume and other buttons as Shoulder buttons. etc... ;D
I dont care if its Streamed from a Server Farm... but i rather the Phone had the beefy tech. ;)

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I dunno izzy....if VR is

I dunno izzy....if VR is going to catch on I see it a bit sooner than then. Oculus has dropped in price, sony releases their headset early next year and Valves headset is open source.

If it does not catch on in 2-3 years the big boys will drop it and development will start to crawl until the next innovation. And by innovation I mean going well beyond a headset.

Just my take on it.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

I dunno izzy....if VR is going to catch on I see it a bit sooner than then. Oculus has dropped in price, sony releases their headset early next year and Valves headset is open source.
If it does not catch on in 2-3 years the big boys will drop it and development will start to crawl until the next innovation. And by innovation I mean going well beyond a headset.
Just my take on it.

I know developers are a buzz and want to ride the wave.. but I dont care whats happening with them. I'm looking at the people and how fast they are willing to adapt VR, and from past remembering... the majority of the people Did Not like VR.

Anything that was done once and failed, will leave a bad taste, so... adoption of VR will NOT Go Smoothly. 6 to 7 years was an Optimistic prediction. ;)

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Ahhhhh......so you are

Ahhhhh......so you are actually predicting the current trend of VR to fade away only to be revitalized by a new innovation that is at best 6 or 7 years away.

Basically we agree except that I still hold hope that the current wave of VR will catch on driving the industry forward. But I can accept that the chance of that is fairly slim.

As an aside, have you actually tried the Oculus or something like the leap motion? A friend of mine has the oculus and I tried another (cant remember the company now) motion control product at a trade show.

The oculus was much better than I thought it would be. It does create a sense of immersion that you cannot find elsewhere.

The motion control was interesting but its still early generation. It needs a bit more to be developed to its full potential.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

As an aside, have you actually tried the Oculus or something like the leap motion? A friend of mine has the oculus and I tried another (cant remember the company now) motion control product at a trade show.
The oculus was much better than I thought it would be. It does create a sense of immersion that you cannot find elsewhere.
The motion control was interesting but its still early generation. It needs a bit more to be developed to its full potential.

Nope.. Didn't go and try the Oculus. But, I trust the reactions from people to it, which were very good.
If it wasn't for those players positive reactions, (a select few games ported to VR seen on YouTube), I would have just said VR was a temporary speed bump and to just forget about it. ;)

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But you look at people who

But you look at people who got a lot of hype over doing VR videos like Markiplier, Pewdiepie, Jacksepticeye and when was the last time any of them did an Oculus video? It's all about content, fun and creative content. And I've heard a lot of talk about making 3rd person games that are viable and interactive in VR. Who knows what the future will hold. I personally have tried the Oculus playing Elite Dangerous and it was amazing. The scale of things and immersion was so real! I would love to try it out with CoT but we'll see...

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It essentially boils down to

It essentially boils down to the "killer app" breaking open the market, such that VR becomes the new "must have" in the gaming experience. We aren't QUITE there yet. It'll probably require something "revolutionary" akin to the way that Apple keeps pushing the rest of the computer makers into following their lead (computers that aren't beige colored, dropping the floppy drive, USB, iPods, iPhones, iPads, etc.) by making VR too cool NOT to have, thereby disrupting the status quo and breaking through in large enough numbers to reshape the market.

Fortunately, there are already companies chasing after that dream, so it'll probably happen.


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Even if the Oculus Rift was

Even if the Oculus Rift was completely past its "experimental" phase and was completely accepted as a relatively cheap and ubiquitous device that was 100% in the mainstream I still think there would always be certain types of games that it would be more applicable to than others. I simply don't see it as the eventual method used to interact with ALL games.

For instance I could see where the Oculus Rift might be very cool for things like airplane/spaceship dogfighters and even most FPSs. But to be honest even if there were times where using them for MMOs might be interesting I still think there would always be enough of a desire to play many games like that in 3rd person modes that will make using something like the Oculus Rift impractical or even downright annoying.

If you're the type of person who absolutely loves playing all games in 1st person POV regardless then yes I could see the Oculus Rift being generally useful to you. I just think there will never come a time when absolutely everyone will always favor 1st person VR devices over more traditional 3rd person POVs, at least until we're all plugged into the Matrix and then it won't matter anymore regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Hopefully the developers went

Hopefully the developers went to E3 and saw where the long lines were.

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I also had tried Oculus with

I also had tried Oculus with Half Life 2, and it totally changed how I saw the game. I am not an avid first person mode player but to have that option to view the game from a different stand point really adds another level to the game, in my opinion

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I have no doubt there were

I have no doubt there were long lines to try out the Oculus Rift enabled games at E3. There's no denying that VR devices always get lots of attention because they are usually cool and flashy. That's been true for decades every time someone claims to have the latest "killer" VR helmet gizmo.

And as I said before there will likely be many games now and in the future that would benefit from things like Oculus Rift. It may even become commonplace for MMOs to routinely support 1st person VR. I simply remain unconvinced it's a "must have" launch-time feature for CoT, especially considering the very low-budget grass roots nature of this game. Had CoT earned something like $5+ million dollars during its KS then I might have happily said that making sure it could support Oculus Rift ought to be a default priority. But since that did not happen I can easily suspect that 1st person VR support is not going to be the absolute highest priority feature for this game.

If the CoT Devs surprise us and actually get Oculus Rift support working on/before launch day then I'm certainly not going to be mad about it. But by the same token if they don't get around to supporting it until say six months or a year after launch I'm not going to be surprised/upset either.

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The longer they wait, the

The longer they wait, the more difficult the job becomes. More assets will be created and propagated though zones that might slow down frame-rates, or might just look odd when seen in VR that look OK from a screen. It would be better to start VR testing early to discover problems before they can be propagated.

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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

The longer they wait, the more difficult the job becomes. More assets will be created and propagated though zones that might slow down frame-rates, or might just look odd when seen in VR that look OK from a screen. It would be better to start VR testing early to discover problems before they can be propagated.

Honestly, I very much doubt the majority of the CoH/V community will shed a tear if they never have Oculus Rift support. For me, this is one of those things that would be Neat, but nowhere Near Needed for me to be/stay with the City of Titans franchise.

Even 12 years from now, if MWM releases a new title using the tech they developed working on CoT, called City of Angels, for a more mature Audience that's gritty and Frank Miller like... even then I don't think VR will be sought out by many players.

As I think about it, only after VR hits consoles, will we see players scratch their heads if new titles ship Without VR support, and might be harshly judged by it. Until that comes to pass (most consoles have VR support), its OK that PC/MAC titles not support VR at all.

Me thinks. ;D

Plus, They will have to Shrink the VR Head Gear WAYYY Down before I'll consider it a sorta cool accessory, like Apple cool. ;)

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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

If VR becomes as prevalent over the next few years as many think, this game could really make its mark by being one of the first MMOs on the scene. This would be very good for subscriptions.

Elite Dangerous would like to have a word with you....

It is also worth noting that right now, Frontier are in bit of a sticky situation: Currently the SDK for Oculus is currently at 0.6.0.1 (as in it still isn't at version 1.0). And Frontier are *just* bringing the game up to the 0.5 SDK version.

This has resulted in them having to rework how the UI works *specifically* for the Rift. And there are more changes coming down the line.

To be totally honest, I would rather, especially for MWM, rather than the "big boy" (ie the companies who can afford the staff/money to do it), have them wait for at least 1.0 of the SDK to come out.

This would mean that a lot of the stuff would be *locked* and very little stuff should be reworked between the updates.

And as others have already said, there are the hardware considerations. From what rumours are flying around, the CV1 (consumer version 1 of the Rift) will have a 4K display. And not only that, your PC will *have* to be be able to push 75+ (if not 90) Frames Per Second... and this is to avoid the motion sickness that can happen when unstable framerates happen.

Now there are the problems of how "placeable" AOE's are going to work... do you take the left eye/right eye or average of both eyes to work out the mouse position? It is a bit easier when you have a *Fixed* interface (ie mouselook for FPS style games), but having seen the issues with the Galaxy Map in Elite Dangerous, as a result I try to avoid using the mouse as much as possible on that screen (and in general in the menu screens, as it tends to float "in front" and far closer than what you expect to see).

Small things like this, that you wouldn't necessarily think about for a normal 2D game now become problems that need to be fixed.

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Hmm...

Hmm...

I haven't tried the Occulus Rift headset. However, I am both far-sighted and astigmatic. In three decades no one has been able to come up with a headset of any kind that would allow someone like me to use the headset without my glasses, and neither has anyone come up with a comfortable headset that could be worn over my glasses. There is nothing in this world that could convince me to wear contact lenses just so I could experience "fully-immersive VR".

If MWM decides to activate and polish up Occulus Rift support I certainly won't complain, but like Voice Chat, for me such a feature would be useless.

When it comes to VR, I think I'll wait for the day when we have self-sustaining life pods with induced coma states, intravenous feeding, and automatic waste removal. Anything less is just another gimmick.

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It would be interesting if

It would be interesting if MWM would put out a call for additional volunteer testing and development resources specifically for Rift support on this site and on the Rift development sites.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Hmm...
I haven't tried the Occulus Rift headset. However, I am both far-sighted and astigmatic. In three decades no one has been able to come up with a headset of any kind that would allow someone like me to use the headset without my glasses, and neither has anyone come up with a comfortable headset that could be worn over my glasses. There is nothing in this world that could convince me to wear contact lenses just so I could experience "fully-immersive VR".

The Oculus Rift DK2 comes with 2 sets of lenses that you can swap in and out to deal with long and short sightedness, and whilst it is *not* perfect for wearing with glasses, the strapping can be adjusted as well as the actual display moved in and out to better fit those who do wear glasses.

From what I have heard of those wearing glasses, the DK2 is *FAR* more comfortable than the original Rift.

Of course, its the setting up/tuning/adjusting that people tend to get annoyed with, but for anything that needs to be tailored to the individual it is something that cannot be avoided.

Side note: Even for those who do not wear glasses, there are still adjustments that can be made for a "perfect" experience. It took me, someone who doesn't wear glasses about 30 minutes to get it sorted out perfectly. For someone who wear glasses, it would take a minute or 2 longer, and that would be to swap lenses.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I am far sighted also. When I

I am far sighted also. When I tried the DK2, I was able to wear it over my glasses comfortably. However, much more space was added in CV1 for glasses. The adjustable lenses are no longer needed.

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My main issue with all of

My main issue with all of these devices is that they force you out of 'reality'. So you miss the visitor, or the FedEx guy, ringing your doorbell. You don't notice that the dog desperately needs to pee. You can't hear your family calling from down the hall. You don't hear the phone-call from work, saying your desk is on fire. Most of them tether you to your computer, so you can't just get up and Bio while the next zone is loading.

Personally, I have no problem virtualizing reality through simple concentration. That's problematical enough, without sticking my head in a bucket.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

It would be interesting if MWM would put out a call for additional volunteer testing and development resources specifically for Rift support on this site and on the Rift development sites.

If Rift support was being considered in the least I think that this would be a perfect solution. Create a profile on their developers forums and just say that the game is being made and would like to allow VR. Requesting experience and knowledge to make it happen. There are a lot of friendly and helping individuals on those forums.

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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

I am far sighted also. When I tried the DK2, I was able to wear it over my glasses comfortably. However, much more space was added in CV1 for glasses. The adjustable lenses are no longer needed.

Agreed, I have heard people who have said that the CV1 is much better.

It also works for those who have impressive beards

(yes, that is Brian Blessed using the Rift at a recording session for HCS Voice Packs (small independent seller of voice packs to be used with Elite Dangerous))

Fireheart wrote:

My main issue with all of these devices is that they force you out of 'reality'. So you miss the visitor, or the FedEx guy, ringing your doorbell. You don't notice that the dog desperately needs to pee. You can't hear your family calling from down the hall. You don't hear the phone-call from work, saying your desk is on fire.

I have those problems sometimes when I am just playing a computer game, or I have headphones on... so what is the problem exactly? I find that the rift doesn't actually add to that.

Quote:

Most of them tether you to your computer, so you can't just get up and Bio while the next zone is loading.

It would be rather strange though getting a view point that is actually removed from where your character is, and could well be several meters away from the sensor (yes, that is how they do it... they use sensors that are on the headset). The tethering is to make sure that there is as low latency as possible, something that Wireless *at the moment* would only add to; as well as to provide power to the system.

Then again, seeing as I have to remove my headphones whenever I go to the toilet, this doesn't add anything extra to me (and yes, I do have wireless headphones, but I still take them off to go to the loo...) And the rift is just as fast and easy to remove as a set of headphones.....

And the CV1 will be even faster to remove for me, as it will have integrated headphones (removable apparently) so only one device to take off and not 2.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Its a great product ....but

Its a great product ....but its almost requires the game to take it into consideration in every aspect of development.

Simple things like adjustable character height, cut scenes, set dimensions, ect all cause havoc in development when the rift is a factor.

As the game is being designed around a 3rd person view, the rift will either require extended development or be a terrible experience.

Like I said before, I think the best way this game could make use of the rift is by including a special mini-game or limited mission set specifically designed with the rift in mind like a haunted house or race track. Of course this mini-game or mission set would not require the rift just be enhanced by it. This is of course not for launch but much later after the initial growing pains occur.

Also Gangrel...your third quote is wrong. Its actually 'Stoke me a clipper...I'll be back for Christmas...whatever" (Rimmer's flubbing of the line) or 'Smoke me a kipper ...I'll be back for breakfast" (Ace's catch phrase).
To which you obviously reply "Whatta guy."

Gangrel
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Also Gangrel...your third quote is wrong. Its actually 'Stoke me a clipper...I'll be back for Christmas...whatever" (Rimmer's flubbing of the line) or 'Smoke me a kipper ...I'll be back for breakfast" (Ace's catch phrase).
To which you obviously reply "Whatta guy."

It is *deliberately* incorrect, because in the extended version of my Sig reads as such:

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) Never tell Gangrel to do anything... he will probably get it wrong
5) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

But due to limitations of the sig here (I forget if its number of lines or actual character count though) I cut out a line...

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Regarding the keyboard, do

Regarding the keyboard, do schools require typing? My HS did way back when as a required vocational class. Ironically they did away with it when computers did away with typewriters.

Brainpower of a slug, those folks.

It seems finger peckers would have a much worse time with a VR helm. In a proper typing class you learn to not be looking at what you type, and use the little raised ridges on the f and j (though some keyboards shift it to d and k for your middle finger).

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Quote:
Quote:

It is *deliberately* incorrect, because in the extended version of my Sig reads as such:.

Not sure what one has to do with the other but alright...correction withdrawn.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm not strictly "anti Oculus Rift" or anti any other kind of hardware that might make playing this game more interesting.
But the standard response I have for something like this is that if providing "proper hardware support" for the Oculus Rift would take any significant amount of extra Dev effort then I would suggest putting it off until the basic game has launched. Let the Devs focus on getting the "spiritual successor" of CoH up and running first (which is going to be hard enough) before we start to worry about supporting special hardware that arguably only a minority of players would ever use while playing CoT.

As I have an ADD/ADHD type disorder, I can't touch type, I have to see where my fingers are going to type, not so much with directional movement using the wasd keys or the arrows, but do occasionally need to reorient myself on the KB. And I think that not being able to switch between first person and third person is a big drawback IMO.
Later on, as an add-on is a better use of time and resources IMO. Who knows, the problems may have been fixed by the time of the official launch...

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Garrilon wrote:
Garrilon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I'm not strictly "anti Oculus Rift" or anti any other kind of hardware that might make playing this game more interesting.
But the standard response I have for something like this is that if providing "proper hardware support" for the Oculus Rift would take any significant amount of extra Dev effort then I would suggest putting it off until the basic game has launched. Let the Devs focus on getting the "spiritual successor" of CoH up and running first (which is going to be hard enough) before we start to worry about supporting special hardware that arguably only a minority of players would ever use while playing CoT.

As I have an ADD/ADHD type disorder, I can't touch type, I have to see where my fingers are going to type, not so much with directional movement using the wasd keys or the arrows, but do occasionally need to reorient myself on the KB. And I think that not being able to switch between first person and third person is a big drawback IMO.
Later on, as an add-on is a better use of time and resources IMO. Who knows, the problems may have been fixed by the time of the official launch...

I *can* touch type, but I find that the more often I have to move my hands between mouse and keyboard *blindfolded* the slower I have to go overall to ensure that I make minimal mistakes.

So there will be some Mouse adjustment, which then throws off my *perceived* perception of where my hand is compared to the keyboard, and then I readjust to that, and back again.

So the Rift is *fine* if your hands are kept in a known configuration, but the more often you end up flicking between mouse/keyboard/joystick whilst being effectively blindfolded, makes the rift more of a "singular control scheme" optimisation above everything else.

I have to lay out *exactly* and fix where my joystick is for Elite Dangerous if I want to also be able to type on the Rift at the same time, because even a *slight* adjustment of just a few mm is enough to throw me off whilst I hunt (by touch only) where the correct keys are.

It is also amazing as to how much you can rely on your peripheral vision as well whilst touch typing. I have given my mother a go in my rift, and she can touch type at over 90 words a minute.. and SHE has issues finding the correct keys completely blind.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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There certainly are games

There certainly are games that are more suited for the Occulus Rift than others, and there is not much doubt in my mind that a complex MMO like City of Titans is shaping up to be (they all are after all) is firmly in the later category.

That said, an Occulus Rift provides an immersive experience like no other that current technology allows. You are in the world in a way that even a first person mode on a display can not remotely match.
The price for that is that you effectively lose access to keyboard controlled operation and need to rely on a much simpler control scheme. Something a lot more wii like, or perhaps a 3D mouse combined with a gamepad controller.

This is an unsolved technical problem of how to pull not only the observation into the game world, but the (body) control as well, but it is not an unsolvable technical problem. Just like touch screens and swipes more or less solved the problem of mobile phone usability, so a more suitable control mechanism to match the Occulus Rift will be found. And sooner if the device picks up in popularity (and games start to support it more).

And of course nobody said that this should be the only screen option. Much rather, as it was pointed out, is it an alternative that cost reltively little to add to the game thanks to the fact that Unreal almost natively support it (just flick a compiler switch and install an additional dll with the game as it ships). Getting a better control scheme is out of range for the developers at MWM, but that has not stopped other developers from doing essentially the same 'out of the box' support, as a bonus for those players who want to experience maximum immersion.

And let's be fair, had it been available in CoH, it would have been awesome to superjump around the city with that Occulus Rift point of view. Would have made the teleport power a lot easier to use too... Look and Click, here I *bamf*. Not to mention a certain famous giant mecha battle where you could hear the thing come thundering up from behind, turn around and then being forced to look up, and up, and up again. A computer monitor, not even in first person, adequately conveys the experience of "Oh *bleep* that is big!"

And yes, there are also combat set pieces that would have been a lot harder, or confusing, if you literally had to turn your head to see what is going on around you, so it is not all fun and roses. I am aware of that.

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https://youtu.be/MMslPweXROY

https://youtu.be/MMslPweXROY?t=38m35s
Motion Sickness is Still an issue it seems.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

https://youtu.be/MMslPweXROY?t=38m35s
Motion Sickness is Still an issue it seems.

It is possible, especially when you start dealing with unstable frame rates. It is this judder and lack of "fine motion" where lower specced systems can cause issues. Which is why the "recommended" specs for the CV1 are tending towards the 4K resolution at 60FPS range of requirement, rather than 1080p at 60 fps.

The DK2 rift has a fixed refresh rate of 75Hz. Combine that with Frame Sync and it starts to get messy.

You could always disable V-sync, but then you get frame tearing for when it drops down to those "inbetween" values.

It is not a new problem, and unfortunately about the only way that I can see it *possibly* being fixed is by having the display work with a variable refresh rate technology (G-Sync from Nvidia and FreeSync from ATI/AMD).

Then again, there were CoX players who suffered motion sickness with just some of the graphical effects that some powersets produced.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Quote:
Quote:

That said, an Occulus Rift provides an immersive experience like no other that current technology allows. You are in the world in a way that even a first person mode on a display can not remotely match..

Consumer product. The military and scientific communities both have more expansive options both available and being developed.

Quote:

The price for that is that you effectively lose access to keyboard controlled operation and need to rely on a much simpler control scheme. Something a lot more wii like, or perhaps a 3D mouse combined with a gamepad controller..

By limiting the effective use of the keyboard you limit text communication.... not a small issue in a MMO. You also limit extensive menu functions and other QoL features.

Quote:

And of course nobody said that this should be the only screen option. Much rather, as it was pointed out, is it an alternative that cost reltively little to add to the game thanks to the fact that Unreal almost natively support it (just flick a compiler switch and install an additional dll with the game as it ships).

Its not exactly as simple as just providing both options. There are many graphical and design choices that may need to be adjusted for rift use. Things like the hud for example....we don't know how important having the hud is to playing the game. What about the origin of visible power effects in relation to the camera position of the rift? Will ongoing buffs/debuffs interfere with the rifts camera? Will lighting effects need to be adjusted so as to not drop a player in those spots of blackness with no way out.

There can be a lot of instances where the immersion you talk about is obvious...but how about all the times when immersion is broken just as obviously. Chat bubbles, on screen text notifications, scaling cheats and the like.

As I said before. If CoT includes rift support...the best way to do so would be to specifically design a mini-game or mission set around it (that can be done with out it as well) and not just open it freely in the game.

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VR is great and all, but

VR is great and all, but there are still a lot of issues to be worked on before it becomes mainstream. cost is the biggest issue for most gamers. Cost of hardware, cost of machine support.

For CoT ver. 1, I would be extremely happy to see 3D support First

For CoT ver. 2. VR would be eminently possible. By then it should be relatively cheap (meaning that more than 80% of the population can afford it and is willing to buy it), and easy to set-up, use, etc.

just my 5 cents worth. (can't use pennies, as we got rid of ours)

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Pretty interesting update as

Pretty interesting update as far as Oculus goes and the fight that MWM wants this to run on low end PC's.

http://www.pcmag.com/news/348531/oculus-rift-will-soon-run-on-a-499-cyberpower-pc

This might be good news for people looking to play VR games and hopefully developers who want to incorporate VR into their games.

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One the big reasons 3-D

One the big reasons 3-D televisions did not become as popular as people thought they would be is the same reason Oculus Rift will start having problems as more people use it.

3D technology relies on your binocular vision to associate the rotation of your eyes into a 3D perception in your mind. But what is missing is the shift of actual depth of focus. The accommodation-convergence reflex is the natural change in geometry of your eye lenses as your eyes rotate. Since Oculus Rift displays things on a screen that is a fixed distance from your eyes, there is no corresponding change to your lens geometry as your eyes rotate. Thus your eyes and brain try to deal with the fact that there is no accommodation-convergence reflex happening and you end up uncomfortable or even with a headache after a while of experiencing this. It effects different people differently, and proponents of the product will naturally suppress their discomfort in order to maintain their status as early accepters of a buzz-worthy new product.

In my opinion, 3D technology will only ever reach mainstream when it is able to accomodate the accommodation-convergence reflex (please pardon the alliteration).

Add to the issues brought up in this thread about interfacing with IRL objects outside the screen, and we have some significant ground yet to traverse before we can make this work right.

I can't wait, however, until we do.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Has anyone tried Skyrim VR

Has anyone tried Skyrim VR yet? It is amazing! You can get the PSVR Skyrim bundle for $350 during Black Friday week. This includes PSVR headset, two move controllers, camera, and Skyrim VR.

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VR support is more than just

VR support is more than just letting you plug in an HMD. Whole world needs to be Optimized for virtual reality. We are talking shaders, lighting, rendering.. it is a crazy amount of work just to do proper VR support. Don’t even get me started on UI UX for it.

This doesn’t mean we have not talked about the VR avenues but it is something that we cannot explore at the moment.

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If it ever hits a super speed

If it ever hits a super speed launch point I'm sure UE will come out with a package that makes it rather simple to integrate it into current games, but I just don't see that happening for another couple of years. I hope to be proven wrong though

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Yeah, I agree with Kiyori.

Yeah, I agree with Kiyori.

For CoT at least it sounds like one of those things that are better "implemented" by waiting for it to be 90%+ done by the Game Engine as "standard".

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The whole "VR" thing for

The whole "VR" thing for computer gaming has been mostly a combination of vapor-ware and hype for the last 30+ years I've been hearing about it. Oh sure every year or two they make advances and I'm quite sure that some day we'll all be playing games in Matrix-like environments which will be wonderful. But until then it's just basically just hype to sell bleeding edge hardware.

I for one would put "VR support for CoT" at pretty much the bottom of whatever prioritized "to do" list they are keeping for this game. Again it's not that I "hate" VR. It's just that at this point it would take so much Dev time and effort to get it working for so little return that I could probably rattle off 100 other random things that most people would want for this game that would likely be easier to implement than VR would ever be.

Maybe after the game has been up and running smoothly for a few years and the Devs have almost literally nothing else better to do (as if that would ever happen) then maybe I could see them spending some time on it. Look at it this way: Even the Skyrim VR that Ephrem recently mentioned didn't get released until 6 years after the original Skyrim itself. There's really no reason to expect (or even worry about) CoT having VR support anytime in the foreseeable future.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I don't see VR as being a

I don't see VR as being a priority for CoT at this point.
But consider that we inhabit our characters. They are an extension of our desire. VR is almost a necessary leap forward for a super hero game. When VR gets paired with what we hope CoT becomes, there would be no end to the popularity of the game.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

I don't see VR as being a priority for CoT at this point.
But consider that we inhabit our characters. They are an extension of our desire. VR is almost a necessary leap forward for a super hero game. When VR gets paired with what we hope CoT becomes, there would be no end to the popularity of the game.

Oh I look forward to a day where we'll be able to play a super-awesome VR-based superhero game. While it's always possible that CoT might be that game at some point it wouldn't absolutely shock me if we had to wait until a game or two -after- CoT to finally get something worthy of that effort.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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A great superhero VR

A great superhero VR experience so far is actually Batman Arkham VR. Give it a try if you can.

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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

A great superhero VR experience so far is actually Batman Arkham VR. Give it a try if you can.

I'm sure it's a great game but I've simply given up on the whole "VR" thing until it's actually "VR" as far as I'm concerned. Like I said before people have been hyping that "VR has finally arrived" for decades and I've basically given up on "taking the bait" until it actually becomes worthwhile.

P.S. I'm not a complete luddite where it comes to keeping up with the latest VR toys. A friend of mine recently got an Oculus Rift and it was cool to give it a try. It's simply not worth it to me at this point. Once VR stops being a "cute toy" and actually becomes something literally (and I mean this seriously) much closer to the Matrix then I'll be impressed enough to care more about it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

A great superhero VR experience so far is actually Batman Arkham VR. Give it a try if you can.

What other game lets you do this?

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

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Bethesda has just started

Bethesda has just started opening the floodgates with Skyrim VR, Fallout 4 VR, and Doom VFR. Soon we will have to choose to lead, follow, or get left in the dust.

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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

Bethesda has just started opening the floodgates with Skyrim VR, Fallout 4 VR, and Doom VFR. Soon we will have to choose to lead, follow, or get left in the dust.

Just like motion controls, remember? When they were the next big thing? And they'd be around forever? And everyone and everything was doing it?

But then people remembered that most that like video games aren't very athletic so actual movement while playing was bad.

I'll wait till it's at a level where it's more like a shared dreamscape.

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Ephrem wrote:
Ephrem wrote:

Bethesda has just started opening the floodgates with Skyrim VR, Fallout 4 VR, and Doom VFR. Soon we will have to choose to lead, follow, or get left in the dust.

Ironically I'm usually the one calling for this game to be at the extreme vanguard of graphics technology (body physics anyone?) but I can easily wait for this game to actually "happen" first before I'd worry about playing catch-up to all those A-list game's VR efforts. At least if you really want to enjoy what people are calling VR now-a-days you can actually go back and play all those old games given a fresh coat of VR paint.

Bottomline I'm not -against- a VR version of CoT... I'd just rather have a "normal" version of it to play with first while they take another 5 or 10 years to make the game you're talking about getting from MWM.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Haven't tried VR but I just

Haven't tried VR but I just can't see sitting at your desk with a head mounted monitor or standing still with a two-piece "console controller" and with, again, a head mounted monitor being that good in the long run. The big step now is getting the rest of the body into the VR experience (and shrinking the head mounted monitor) and I'll happily see others spend the money getting that done since I'd rather see MWM spending theirs on actual content.

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Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Haven't tried VR but I just can't see sitting at your desk with a head mounted monitor or standing still with a two-piece "console controller" and with, again, a head mounted monitor being that good in the long run. The big step now is getting the rest of the body into the VR experience (and shrinking the head mounted monitor) and I'll happily see others spend the money getting that done since I'd rather see MWM spending theirs on actual content.

I know I've been relatively harsh on VR in this thread but I will acknowledge that it's actually very good for certain types of games. I stress that word "types" because I think that's an important detail that's being overlooked here.

Basically any game that's already geared towards being played in a "first person" fashion is the ideal obvious target for the current incarnation of VR tech. For instance any game that has you (as the player) piloting a jet or driving a race car is pretty much a perfect fit for the 2017-18 version of VR. Where current VR tech starts to fall short is in games where the player is required to walk/run around. Sure you can sort of have fun with a VR FPS, but what's the point of being able to "look around" the way you could in a real life gunfight without being able to "dive for cover" other otherwise move the way you ought to in those situations. Thanks anyway but I'll keep playing Paintball IRL until VR can catch up to that.

Now we get to the crux of the discussion: Applying VR to a MMORPG. Frankly out of all the types of computer games that exist I seriously think that VR tech is currently the least applicable to MMORPGs. Typically combat in MMORPGs is completely "non-twitchy" and "non-tactical" in nature. What good does it do to be able to swivel your head around to see everything when your combat is tab-oriented? VR applied to a game like CoT would be a complete unnecessary novelty at best and more likely a wasteful use of Dev time and effort at worst. If VR was ever successfully applied to CoT I'd honestly give it try it for a few minutes, but when I realized how relatively pointless it was I'd probably go back to playing in third person the way I've played these games for decades.

VR is a wonderful idea but it's not a panacea for everything. I'll bet even by the time a Matrix-like simulator actually exists there will still be some computer games people will prefer to play without the benefit of VR just because it'll offer nothing uniquely special for that type of game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

blacke4dawn
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Ohh I fully agree Lothic, and

Ohh I fully agree Lothic, and probably should have added such a little blurb.